team3s            Friday, February 4 2000            Volume 01 : Number 048




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 21:06:40 -0500
From: "WALTER D. BEST" <WDBO39@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Part # for Supra fuel pump?

***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end for more info.***


Matt,

I might be able to help you out on this one.

I have part number on the Denso MK-IV Supra TT pump as being:  23221-46110

If you are looking for a good source try http://www.Toyotapart.com, the last
time I heard they were selling them for $195.77.  Their e-mail address is
Metrotoyota@worldnet.att.net or 1-800-581-3033

Hope this helps,

Dave Best

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Matt Jannusch <MAJ@BigCharts.com>
To: Team3S <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 7:28 PM
Subject: Team3S: Part # for Supra fuel pump?


> ***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end for more info.***
>
>
> Anyone have the part number handy?  I think that's the way I'm going to go
for the pump on my car...
>
> -Matt
> '95 3000GT Spyder VR4
>
>
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 20:38:41 -0800
From: "Benson \"elmagoo\" Russell" <benson@2015.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For Engine

***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end for more info.***


>Benson "Latuh fuh U" states in a long message that MY message was too long
and
>detailed and so invalidates my point...
>Whatever  :)

ummmm, NO, I did not state it like that.  I never said the fact that
supporting your argument with detailed evidence was bad, or that it
invalidates your point.  I said, and I quote:

"Ok, I can only read soo much of a reply like this before I have to respond.
I understand you have a difference of opinion, but can we please not OVER
DRAMATISE an issue??  To me it invalidates your opinion even more and is
really irritating to read.  I understood your point in about the first 2
paragraphs, didn't need the extra 6 or so of reiteration all blown out of
wack."

The point of this being that your post was really melo-dramatic in nature.
You present the unorthodox pulley as if it was literally the Anti-Christ of
car parts by the way you positioned your statements.  All I'm saying is that
most people tend to not to want to listen to your point if your stating it
like a whacked out preacher who's claiming the end of the world.  I enjoyed
your last post as it was direct, and written well without all the overly
dramatic examples.  Being detailed with your evidence I encourage, and enjoy
reading about (further educating oneself isn't a bad thing, that's why we're
all on this list :).

I also do not consider wanting proof, or speaking your mind to be a personal
attack, but the way your post comes off, deciding to call it the
'unitelligent pulley' in the context that you used (along with other posts I
have read from this group regarding this product), it sounds like you are
also calling the people who choose to purchase and use them unitelligent.
Speaking one's mind is definately a good thing, If I didn't think it was, I
wouldn't be here having this debate with you :).

>The harmonic forces ARE there, they ARE destructive over time.  If you
choose
>not to care about them THAT IS FINE, but don't tell people there is nothing
>wrong with ignoring them...or that they don't exist

Again, I never said that they don't exist, in fact, I agreed with you that
they do, but my point is more towards the application of the unorthodox
pulley.  I didn't realise they were advertising it as a racing part, my bad.
If I were to build up a car to be a really high horsepower monster, then I
personally wouldn't be using this pulley, nor would I recommend it for that
kind of application.  But for an NA owner like myself, where I will never be
racing the car, and the occasional stop-light challenge is the most
aggressive use of my engine, I don't think there will be any problems.  Its
just like race-preping a car, you don't go launch a 600+ hp beast with a
low-end clutch do you?  No, you go buy a high-performance clutch built to
handle that kind of punishment.  To me, it's all in the application and I do
agree with you to an extent.

I also don't consider what I've heard and found out from people who have
been using these pulley's as 'anecdotal experience'.  As an example, the
fact that both Matt and Dan run their cars really hard, have used these
products for an extended period of time, with no damage, is some good
evidence, period.  Practical real-life application, with real-life testing,
along with real-life statistical data is something that you just can't
ignore or brush off.  The numbers make just as much of a statement as does
the evidence that you refer to from industry sources.  If it's not enough to
satisfy you, that's fine as well.  The point being that everybody has to
make up their own mind, and if you're not convinced, then more power to you.
For me, I'll just agree to disagree on the subject :).


Latuh fuh U,
Benson
benson@2015.com



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 21:45:24 -0600
From: xwing <xwing@execpc.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: UO pulley

***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end for more info.***




> Hello Jack,
>    Read this thread for a while.  It was kind of amusing. :)
> You make the analogy of a car to a person, with a "...GOOD QUALITY..."
> person having a full set of lungs, etc. This is supposed to equate to
> a car without an UO pulley.
> I agree with you, completely.  An UO pulley is not good for our cars.
> However, I must point out that anabolic steriods are BERY BAD for a person,
> and certainly is not a component to creating a "...GOOD QUALITY..." person.
> You would have to agree with me on this.
> You would also have to agree with me that your car is the (using your
> analogy) automotive equivalent of a person on HORSE steriods. :)

> Why is the UO pulley so much worse than 17G turbos running 24psi of boost?

That's a good question!
Because it puts UNDESIRABLE stress on the mechanicals of the engine.
Horsepower/boost in racing is DESIRABLE stress.
You want to build the engine well, and strong, so it CAN stand up to 17G turbos

(or whatever you have  ;)
and 24psi boost WELL, because the parts are all the best, the design is
OPTIMIZED, all extraneous/unnecessary/bad stresses are taken care of,
so the GOOD stress, that which pumps more air and pressure and hp,
is best handled.  The bearings will have a tough enough time standing up
to the high hp/rpm/pressures, WITHOUT having undampened and
purely destructive harmonic vibrations trying to tear them up as well.

Believe me, the bearings in our motors are marginal as it is...there is
NOT much leeway/overdesign there once you are over 500hp; bearing
failure is one of the first failures that shows up on these motors.
Ed Arnold Racing testified to that, they won Pike's Peak hillclimb
with a 3000/Stealth TT -- they had problems with the bearings...
take off the dampener, and that'd only get worse.

Jack Tertadian
Sounds like after the long-winded and 2am-slightly-bombastic letter I
posted, and the replies, maybe people are getting a better understanding
of the sides of this issue...That is Quality Internetting IMO!



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 08:13:22 -0500
From: Jeremy Barron <doc2978@doctorheresy.com>
Subject: Team3S: Fueal Injector questions...

***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end for more info.***


After an extended leave from the list, I return to find that pretty much the same group of good people still attacking the heady performance issues which face us ;). I have pretty much resolved to make a concerted effort to upgrade from the level I've been at for the past two years this Spring (HKS BOV, Apex AVC-R, K+N FIPK, Greddy exhaust- best of 12.93@108.85 [mainly thanks to a wet rag on the intake, right Dennis? ;)). Anywho, I plan to finish the exhaust from hollowing out the pre-cats back and also upgrade the fuel system. Funds prohibit upgrading the turbos in the near future. In the interests of trying to wring the most performance out of the stock turbos, I thus pose this question to the list: would I be better off picking up a six-pack of DSM 450/440cc injectors to use in conjunction with an Apex AFC, or should I try to find a bargain on 550cc injectors? Will the AFC be able to control the 550cc injectors adequately, or will the 550s necessitate an ARC or similar se!
t-up? I don't want to "over-fuel" a system that already runs rich.

Also, are the DSM stock injectors direct-fits? O-rings and all? On a side note, while scouring the archives it appears that the Supra fuel pump is a economical drop-in upgrade. Can anyone verify where it is available from for ~$200 and that it is still considered a straight "drop-in" mod? Thanks for everything and take care...

Jeremy Barron




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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:12:23 +0100
From: "Robert Jerome Mengler" <RMENGLER@statoil.com>
Subject: Team3S: Vent Air-Recirc Blower Knob Flips open,94 3000gtSL

***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end for more info.***


I get the Digest and nobody responded to my 3 questions but I'd appreciate
an
answer on this one.   Just tell me "No" please if it doesn't happen on your
cars:
Has anyone had the problem where the Air-Recirculation control
knob (above the radio) moves by itself from the Recirculation
position to about half way between the fresh air position and
the recirc position, mostly when a window is open
or vehicle speed is increased (even with the windows shut and
the blower off)?   No AC is on. Is this a natural "safety"
design in the system to force me to smell the sewage system
plant I pass by twice a day on my commute or might something
be restricting the Air-Recir. lever  behind the dash?  If I slow
down or close the windows (if they are open) I can manually
close the vent and the knob will stay closed, otherwise apparent
"wind force" (from outside air I assume) pushes it about half
way open again.
Thanks in advance.   Bob  (1994  3000gt SL)






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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:37:36 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Fuel Injector questions...

***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end for more info.***


The new AFC will work with 550cc but you'll not eliminate the intake problem of our restrictive MAS ! The ARC or VPC do this as well as controlling fuel.

Well the question is what do you gonna do with the more fuel ? With stock turbos and intercoolers, the answer is simple : cool down the chambers and waste energy. When adding more fuel and increasing boost, you MUST run the car super-rich. This because the 9b are running way off their efficiency map and produce very, very hot discharge temperatures. This is then causing high intake temperatues that increase the danger for detonation and deadly knock ! Therefore you MUST overfuel the system what is not a good solution but it works (I don't like this style of controlling detonation !)

If money is an issue, get some used DSM injectors and an old AFC. If money becomes more fluid, get an ARC or VPC and 550cc injectors, depending on your application.

The DSM injectors are a direct fit. Of course you are byuing new O-Rings !

Yes, the Supra pump is a drop in and it costs around $200. It will feed somewhat more but is probably at its end with 550cc injectors closely maxxed out. It is simply a standard Denso pump.

Take care too :-)

Roger
93'3000GT TT

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Jeremy Barron <doc2978@doctorheresy.com>
To: <team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 2:13 PM
Subject: Team3S: Fueal Injector questions...


>upgrading the turbos in the near future. In the interests of trying to wring the most performance out of the stock turbos, I thus pose this question to the list: would I be better off picking up a six-pack of DSM 450/440cc injectors to use in conjunction with an Apex AFC, or should I try to find a bargain on 550cc injectors? Will the AFC be able to control the 550cc injectors adequately, or will the 550s necessitate an ARC or similar se!
>  t-up? I don't want to "over-fuel" a system that already runs rich.
>
>  Also, are the DSM stock injectors direct-fits? O-rings and all? On a side note, while scouring the archives it appears that the Supra fuel pump is a economical drop-in upgrade. Can anyone verify where it is available from for ~$200 and that it is still considered a straight "drop-in" mod? Thanks for everything and take care...



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 09:03:05 CST
From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Vent Air-Recirc Blower Knob Flips open,94 3000gtSL

***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end for more info.***


No one has replied, because this sounds like a unique problem.  If I was to
guess, it sounds like the recirculate lever isn't holding enough.  Maybe a
broken spring somewhere??  It is not a common problem on the 3/S.  But I've
owned older Mitsubishi's that this did happen too. (86 Mirage)  You might
have to track down the mechanism that controls it.

later,
Curt
http://www.mn3s.org



>From: "Robert Jerome Mengler" <RMENGLER@statoil.com>
>To: team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
>Subject: Team3S: Vent Air-Recirc Blower Knob Flips open,94 3000gtSL
>Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:12:23 +0100
>
>***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end for more info.***
>
>
>I get the Digest and nobody responded to my 3 questions but I'd appreciate
>an
>answer on this one.   Just tell me "No" please if it doesn't happen on your
>cars:
>Has anyone had the problem where the Air-Recirculation control
>knob (above the radio) moves by itself from the Recirculation
>position to about half way between the fresh air position and
>the recirc position, mostly when a window is open
>or vehicle speed is increased (even with the windows shut and
>the blower off)?   No AC is on. Is this a natural "safety"
>design in the system to force me to smell the sewage system
>plant I pass by twice a day on my commute or might something
>be restricting the Air-Recir. lever  behind the dash?  If I slow
>down or close the windows (if they are open) I can manually
>close the vent and the knob will stay closed, otherwise apparent
>"wind force" (from outside air I assume) pushes it about half
>way open again.
>Thanks in advance.   Bob  (1994  3000gt SL)

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 06:39:05 +0100
From: Matthews <matthews@wiesbaden.vistec.net>
Subject: Team3S: Re: 3000gt.

***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end for more info.***


> Bryan G Langton wrote:
>
> Hi,
>        I saw your post on the 3000 site i also have a Japanese 3000GT (GTO)
> mine is a 1995 model
> all the Japanese cars have a speed limiter have you overcome this ?? if so
> HOW..( new CPU ??) Also they have a 180klm speedo have you scorched a 240+ Klm
> speedo ?? if so how and where.
>
> Regards
>
> Bryan
> 95 3000GTO TT VR4

Yes, the GTOs sold in Japan had a speed limiter and a lower speedometer.  Those
sold elsewhere did not!  Mine came stock with a 180 mph (280 kph) speedo and no
fixed speed limiter.

- --
Jim Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
mailto:matthews@wiesbaden.vistec.net (64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.vistec.net/~matthews

*** 3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.vistec.net/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 72% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Blitz Blow-Off Valve
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Abex metallic brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, Top Speed: 168mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
1 Feb 99 Dyno Session: 406 SAE HP, 354 lb-ft torque



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:33:50 -0800
From: "Darcy" <w.c.e@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: 3000gt.

***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end for more info.***


Byran;

Check the wrecking yards for a used Speedo if you consider you just have to
have one.  The Canadian cars are all in K's (MPH in smaller figures) whereas
the American counterparts are all in MPH (K's in smaller figures ?).

Best

Darc



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:16:29 CST
From: "Mark Wendlandt" <stealth_tt@hotmail.com>
Subject: Team3S: Found Long Block for sale

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I found this and sounds like a great deal for anyone looking for a new
engine.

http://www.thepartstrader.com/single_ad.cfm?adnum=39598

Mark Wendlandt
'91RT/TT

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:09:00 -0500
From: Jeremy Barron <doc2978@doctorheresy.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Fuel Injector questions...

***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end for more info.***



Thanks for the advice, Roger. While I realize that the AFC does not replace the stock MAS, how restrictive is the MAS with the stock 9B turbos, especially considering that their boost falls off in the upper-rpm range? How much of a tangible benefit would I really see by using an ARC with the 83mm MAS (and probably having the TB bored out as well) while still having the stock turbos?

Secondly, is Jack T. the only turbo guy who has experimented with nitrous? Now before everyone starts shaking their heads at the prospect of that evil stuff grenading our engines, I am somewhat confident (;))that when done correctly, nitrous does not present much more of a threat than cranking up the boost, provided there are safety measures taken and fuel supply is adequate. Plus, it has the additional benefit of actually cooling down the combustion chamber due to it's own low temp. Seeing the heat problems which we have on our cars, this appears to be a nice measure one could take when racing in order to improve power without compromising the engine due to potential knock/detonation issues. I wonder how close to the 11s I could get with the full exhaust, upgraded fuel and a 50-horse hit of nitrous? Hmmm...any feedback on which type of set-up (wet or dry) would be preferable? I think NOS is dry while NX is wet. Thanks again and take care everyone...

>The new AFC will work with 550cc but you'll not eliminate the intake >problem of our restrictive MAS ! The ARC or VPC do this as well as >controlling fuel.

>Well the question is what do you gonna do with the more fuel ? With >stock turbos and intercoolers, the answer is simple : cool down the >chambers and waste energy. When adding more fuel and increasing >boost, you MUST run the car super-rich. This because the 9b are >running way off their efficiency map and produce very, very hot >discharge temperatures. This is then causing high intake temperatues >that increase the danger for detonation and deadly knock ! Therefore >you MUST overfuel the system what is not a good solution but it works (I >don't like this style of controlling detonation !)

>If money is an issue, get some used DSM injectors and an old AFC. If >money becomes more fluid, get an ARC or VPC and 550cc injectors, >depending on your application.

>The DSM injectors are a direct fit. Of course you are byuing new O->Rings !

>Yes, the Supra pump is a drop in and it costs around $200. It will feed >somewhat more but is probably at its end with 550cc injectors closely >maxxed out. It is simply a standard Denso pump.

>Take care too :-)

>Roger
>93'3000GT TT





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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Feb 00 15:45:53 EST
From: "Alan Monarchi GANGUS@VNET.IBM.COM" <gangus@vnet.ibm.com>
Subject: Team3S: OEM struts

***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end for more info.***


Folks,
  Does anybody know what brand of struts are original equipment
in our cars ?  I've heard that they are KYB, but I seem to get
different price quotes for KYB vs. OEM parts.

Also, does anyone know what a REASONABLE rate is for changing the 2
front struts, 2 hours seems a little small, 3 hours seems about
right, I was quoted 5.5 hours from Dodge which I think is ridiculous.

My local mitsu dealer (who has since closed down) quoted me 2.2 hours
of labor.    I assume it's somewhere in between ?

Thanks,
  Al


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:05:33 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Vent Air-Recirc Blower Knob Flips open,94 3000gtSL

***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end for more info.***


I've had this problem several times - I almost always have my vents open, so
I hadn't gotten bothered enough to figure out why it does that.  If anyone
does figure out why the lever flips back to the "open" side by itself, I'd
love to know!

- --Erik

- ------                                             ----------
Erik Gross                                         DuPont, WA
'95 Pearl White 3000GT (NA, DOHC, 5-speed)          65,000 mi
Firestone Firehawk 245/50/ZR16 tires, stock wheels
Magnacor KV85 spark plug wires, NGK plugs @ 0.040"
K&N FIPK (57-1500), resonator intact
Mobil 1 10W30 Synthetic w/ OEM oil filter
***No more ticking lash adjusters!  Treated with GM EOS, BG
   44K FI cleaner. Change oil every 2000mi, filter 4000mi ***
- -------------------------------------------------------------


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Jerome Mengler [mailto:RMENGLER@statoil.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 5:12 AM
> To: team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: Team3S: Vent Air-Recirc Blower Knob Flips open,94 3000gtSL
>
>
> ***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end for more info.***
>
>
> I get the Digest and nobody responded to my 3 questions but
> I'd appreciate
> an
> answer on this one.   Just tell me "No" please if it doesn't
> happen on your
> cars:
> Has anyone had the problem where the Air-Recirculation control
> knob (above the radio) moves by itself from the Recirculation
> position to about half way between the fresh air position and
> the recirc position, mostly when a window is open
> or vehicle speed is increased (even with the windows shut and
> the blower off)?   No AC is on. Is this a natural "safety"
> design in the system to force me to smell the sewage system
> plant I pass by twice a day on my commute or might something
> be restricting the Air-Recir. lever  behind the dash?  If I slow
> down or close the windows (if they are open) I can manually
> close the vent and the knob will stay closed, otherwise apparent
> "wind force" (from outside air I assume) pushes it about half
> way open again.
> Thanks in advance.   Bob  (1994  3000gt SL)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *** Please make sure you are using the NEW Team3S list address:
> team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
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>



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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 00:47:23 -0800
From: Errin Humphrey <errin@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Fuel cut problem.

***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end for more info.***


Jack,

xwing wrote:

> AFC can work but it's very coarse "low throttle map, high throttle map"

> rather than the VPC gradual mapping is not as good IMO;

I didn't get a chance to bring this up last time I discussed this
with you and you mentioned this....  Did you know that the with
the new AFC, once you set low and hi throttle maps, the AFC
gradually "blends" between these?  So it's not as if you are only in
one map or the other.  So this isn't too different from the VPC, no?

I'm still planning to use the new AFC.

Note to Craig:  I plan to use Denso 660 injectors when I go to
15Gs.  According to Mike Mahaffey at AAM, the Densos don't
require multiple cranks to start your car like the RCs sometimes
do.  Also, 660 doesn't cost a lot more than 550 on the Densos,
so it's worth the extra margin of tuning/safety.

> it also utilizes

> stock MassAir sensor which restricts airflow pre-turbo.

Stock MAS supposedly flows 800 cfm according to some tests
done by guys on the DSM list.  This should be sufficient at least
for the 13Gs which Craig is planning on.  It might even be close
to sufficient for 15Gs (at least at no higher than 15psi of boost).

> Dunno, the higher the hp your engine, the more airflow needed, the
> more you lose with relative restriction of MAS.  On my 94 with stock turbos I
> picked up ~2.3 mph quartermile speed changing to VPC/720 injectors, using a
> gutted out MAS to hold the K&N filter.

Is it possible that this gain was due to the VPC/720s being able
to keep your ECU in open loop and thus not putting the injectors
to full static?  That's what I always assumed would be the source
of gains with this setup on stock turbos.  I don't mean to argue,
but I'm just trying to justify a reason to stay away from the VPC
and the ARC, both of which I've heard so many negative things
about.  :)  I REALLY wish that someone would make a larger
MAS replacement for our cars which doesn't require additional
tuning hardware.  Would it be so tough?

> Haltech computer system--totally replaces stock computer.  NO information on
>   if/how well it works; Mike Mahaffey at Altered Atmospheres apparently has it
>  on a car, but some who spoke to him said it has been difficult to tune and I
> don't
>   know if there is an ACTUAL KIT to FULLY and EASILY install it on our
>   cars without somehow fabricating bracketry in your driveway, etc.

Yes, from what I gathered from Mike, the system is near impossible
to tune without a dyno.  To quote Mike, "How can you tune timing
curves without a dyno?"  Words to live by.  :)  Also, I don't think he
has a Haltech kit for our cars available yet.

- --Errin
Seattle



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