team3s
Wednesday, February 2
2000 Volume 01 :
Number
047
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 01 Feb 2000 22:47:42 -0800
From: Errin Humphrey <
errin@u.washington.edu>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Wheel offset question...
***This is the NEW Team3S list. See
message end for more info.***
Ken Middaugh wrote:
> Brake
calipers require enough clearance to the inside rim diameter as well as
>
clearance to the rim spokes. Decreasing wheel offset will definitely
increase
> clearance to the spokes, and depending on the inside wheel
geometry may also
> increase clearance to the inside wheel diameter
too.
There's an exception to this, however:
Multi-piece (2-piece,
3-piece) wheels have "lips" around the
edge of the wheel which in
some cases will vary with the wheel
offset. So it's possible that their
lower offsets are actually
being accomplished by means of increasing the lip
width, and
thus no caliper clearance is being gained.
Some Japanese
wheel manufacturers offer their wheels in
choices of different constant lip
widths with different offset
("disk") sizes available for each of
these lip widths. These
wheels must be special ordered, and you usually
have to put
up with delays when ordering them, AMHIK (= as me how
I
know). (argh, sometimes I have a tough time believing that
the Japanese
invented Just In Time manufacturing.)
> Since different wheels
are
> made differently, you can't assume that an offset that works on one
brand will
> work on another.
This sums the situation/problem up
nicely.
> Clearance from the inside edge of the tire to the spring
perch is easier. As
> the offset is decreased, clearance is
increased. This clearance relationship
> between rim width and
offset should be the same between different brands.
Another important
factor is wheel width. Increasing wheel
width can give you more brake
clearance as well as less strut
perch clearance. Lower wheel width does
the opposite. BUT,
the lip issue which I mentioned above goes hand in
hand with
this, so it might be necessary to find out whether or not
increases
in wheel width include an increase in lip width. If not, then
it'll
be more likely that the wheel will clear the caliper.
It's too
bad that there's no universal rating for caliper clearance
allowed by a
particular wheel. Why isn't this possible? Calipers
come in all
shapes and sizes and are located at different distances
from the wheel center
as a result of the rotor size.
A quick rule of thumb: If an offset
is listed with an "H" written
next to it (i.e. offset: +41H), that
usually denotes a high or "hyper"
disk size which tells you the
wheel is suited to large calipers. You
usually see this only with
Japanese wheel manufacturers.
- --Errin
Seattle
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 23:02:39
-0800
From: Errin Humphrey <
errin@u.washington.edu>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Wheel offset question...
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Klusmanp@aol.com wrote:
> Nope! As
one of the other posts mentions, you need to clear both the brake
>
calipers and the shock strut. Clearing the brake calipers depends upon
the
> offset AND the placement of the "spokes" on the
wheel.
Don't forget about wheel width. This is a commonly
overlooked
but very important factor.
> Tirerack is really on the
ball. Very impressive. They are the only company
> that will tell you for
sure what wheels do and do not fit.
The only problem with Tirerack is
that there are TONS of
wheels which they don't carry. They don't carry
any of the
top end Japanese wheel brands. Also, with many of the
other
brands they carry (such as O.Z. and Fittipaldi) there are
many
wheels produced by those brands which are not available
through
Tirerack. Usually it's because those companies don't
want Tirerack
selling some of their higher-end wheels.
Also, there are some well-renown
wheel manufacturers out
there (not carried by Tirerack) which produce
excellent street
wheels suitable for racing. Fikse (based here in
Seattle) and
Kinesis (based in CA) are two which come to mind.
Kinesis
wheels aren't too pricy. Fikses cost a bomb, but these are
the
brand of wheels that you see Diablos upgrading to. :)
>
p.s. You could also look into Blitz racing wheels. Talk to Stillen about
>
getting some of these. Buddy of mine has some 18" and they are
>
BEAUTIFUL but $$$.
The unfortunate thing is that Blitz seems to have
mostly gotten
out of the wheel business. They only currently produce
the Z1
Technospeed (a very nice wheel), and they haven't come out
with any
new wheels in quite some time.
- --Errin
Seattle
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 23:11:01
-0800
From: Errin Humphrey <
errin@u.washington.edu>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Wheel offset question...
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Oskar wrote:
>
Rich,
>
> does this mean that you have ruled out Volk? I am
under the assumption that
> the TE-37 will fit a second gen TT.
Please advise if you have found this to
> not be true.
Yes, the
TE-37s will fit.
I've got Volk's application guide right in front of me,
and
they list that both 17 x 9.0 and 18 x 9.0 will work with a
+40mm
offset. Excellent racing wheels. Very light and
very
strong.
You might also want to check out their brand new racing
wheel,
the SE-37. I'm not sure if there's a GTO app, tho.
-
--Errin
Seattle
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 01:47:33
-0600
From: xwing <
xwing@execpc.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For Engine
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Unorthodox Pulleys are Bad For Your
Engine. One, last, time, to illustrate--
Along the same, exact
lines of logic Matt uses in his letter (quoted at the end)
here is
another suggestion:
Everybody remove their AIR FILTERS and never use one
again.
Why? Because I know a BUNCH of street and race cars that use no
air filters,
running super high horsepower at 6-10,000rpm (plus) and have
NEVER heard of
a SINGLE engine failure related to not using an air
filter.
The THEORETICAL damage done to the engine by the
"Supposed
Particles in the Air" (see Dr. Evil with pinky finger to
mouth)
have never directly been measured BY ME, I don't know of
statistics on
their effects, so must be ok for EVERYBODY to go without
airfilter.
Oh yeah, NOT selling an airfilter doesn't make anybody a
profit...
I think "Unorthodox Pulley" should be changed to
"Unintelligent Pulley".
- --Just goes to show you, poor engine
building and parts selection CAN
work JUST FINE, MOST all the time...when the
Mitsubishi engineers
overbuilt the engine strength enough to be able to
"survive" awhile without a
proper harmonic dampener. Humans
can "survive" without one lung,
one kidney, both eyes, ears,
several limbs, etc but that does not make GOOD
QUALITY human being
design.
In fact, without ears/hearing humans can
do fine...but not
HEARING the HARMONICS (sound!) does not mean
harmonics are not THERE--dealing
with the HARMONICS properly can
stop a person from stepping in front of a
car, AND can stop an engine
from premature bearing wear and crankshaft/main
bearing saddle cracks.
In NASCAR/Sprint racing for SHORT races they use
LIGHT, SMALL harmonic dampeners
for a little better acceleration.
They know the race is short, and know they
rebuild
the engine after EVERY
race anyway (NEW bearings, sometimes NEW crank etc)
so even if it will (on
average) crack in 500 miles, the race is only 200 miles!
On LONG
races/higher speeds they use HEAVY, LARGER diameter harmonic
dampeners
because the INCREASED MASS and design MORE EFFECTIVELY
DAMPEN the harmonics
that ARE present--so the bearings LAST the whole race,
the CRANK doesn't
crack as often...they can't GET AWAY with using the light
less effective
dampener because the LONG race brings FAULTS out more!
Since none of us run
500 miles, or 12/24 hours ALL OUT, maybe WE can
"get away with"
running the Unorthodox PULLEY.
I don't want to "get away" with
it at the expense of MY FRIEND, my engine :)
"Getting away
with it" does NOT make it "GOOD QUALITY engine building
technique"
either.
sigh. One despairs at times.
Sounds like hundreds do it with no problems,
according to
the
"pulley" seller. Go for it. I guess I'm just a
stick in the mud, along with
all the engineers at Mitsubishi,
Toyota,
Nissan, DaimlerChrysler, GM, Ford, BMW,
VW, Smokey Yunick, Bill
"Grumpy"
Jenkins,
Schafiroff, Warren Johnson,
Reher-Morrison, Sonny Bryant, Crower, Moldex,
the list goes
on
FOR EVER, who ALL use REAL, relatively HEAVY HARMONIC DAMPENERS on
their
engines for race and street.
But, like in science, you can
ALWAYS find a few studies/people claiming to
"prove"
it is
beneficial to go jump off a cliff. Alot of people jump off cliffs
dozens
of times
without any problems so it must be ok? What is the
PREPONDERANCE of QUALITY
evidence;
what do the "Gold Standard"
practitioners do--THAT is what should be paid
attention to...!
This is NOT
IMHO! This is in the opinion of...well, see the partial list
above.
Let those with eyes, see.
Jack Tertadian
ps this is
NOT a flame, but it IS a serious difference of opinion, and I've
presented it
that way,
in good spirit and with just a tiny bit of humor. It's just
that "they keep
making more" so the humor
of it is hard to come
by at this point...
"Matt Monett (Dynamic Racing)"
wrote:
> just thought I would interject here, My car (93 RT TT) has
had a unorthodox
> underdrive pulley on it for about 2 1/2 yrs &
30,000miles now, and My car
> spends ALOT of time at 6000+rpm in facked my
car held 6700rpm in 5th gear
> for over 40 miles strait! my partner
(92 RT TT) also has had his pulley on
> for about the same time and miles
with NO problems! To add to it we have
> sold 100's of these with
not even 1 complaint! and every1 that I have
> talked to after thy
installed the pulley has told me about the same thing
> "it dose feel
to have a little more kick" or something along those lines.
> Evey
Bad thing I have ever herd about these pulleys is from some1 that has
>
never tried it, Nor have I ever even herd of a bottom end failure that
can
> be linked to 1 of these pulleys.
> But like anything make up
your own mined , but I can tell you the pulleys
> work and I know of know
problems related to them.
> Matt Monett
>
> From: Mark William
Hindelang
> Subject: Re: unorthodox underdrive pulley
> >
oooohhhh. RETURN that piece of metal crap..
> > from past posts,
everyone and everyone has said not to buy them. don't waste
>
> >
your time or your engine... you will be sorry you put it on.. there is a
>
> problem that is related to harmonic dampening that when the pulley is
used
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 03:55:25
-0800
From: "Benson \"elmagoo\" Russell" <
benson@2015.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For Engine
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>Unorthodox Pulleys are Bad For Your
Engine. One, last, time, to
illustrate--
- --- the rest clipped
to save internet band-width --
Ok, I can only read soo much of a reply
like this before I have to respond.
I understand you have a difference of
opinion, but can we please not OVER
DRAMATISE an issue?? To me it
invalidates your opinion even more and is
really irritating to read. I
understood your point in about the first 2
paragraphs, didn't need the extra
6 or so of reiteration all blown out of
wack.
That said, an alternate
view on these underdrive pulley's
Well, I've heard a lot of people making
reference to research papers, other
car manufacturers, race car drivers, and
many other credible resources
saying that 'they say it's bad' (the key phrase
here being 'they say').
Well, I haven't heard any hard, concrete
non-theoretical data to support
this either? Theoretically, yes, you've
shown that some kind of harmonic
dampening should be there for the engine,
but statistically speaking (as in,
'here's some figures of how many engines
these products have actually
destroyed') there's nothing that you've
shown. I've seen this a bunch of
times in the various industries I've
worked in, and what's designed on paper
and the theoretical theories behind
that design are one thing, when the
product get's built, and tested, and it's
real limits are found, that's
something else. Matt was merely stating
his experiences with this product
and presenting what I would consider to be
some good evidence to support his
side (2 1/2 years of hard street driving,
as well as racing I'd say is a
good 'test run' period for any product).
Let's not forget that actual,
hands-on proven data that is legitimate to the
issue is worth quite a lot as
far as supporting evidence. Just as you
used the counter example of people
not using air-filters for more horsepower,
there are a lot of proven cases
of people ruining their engines that did
that, which more supports the fact
that it's not a good thing.
I'll
tell you what I have seen, is real life examples of people that have
used
these products under both everyday driving, and extreme driving cases,
along
with several mechanics, and friends of mine who are very well
mechanically
inclinded that disagree with you on this. Also, for a
different
perspective, look at it from just the numbers from a sales point
of
view. Just using dynamicracing and the pro-shop I go to here
as
examples, they've sold a lot of these (over a hundred at least if
you
combine both sources), and haven't had any complaints, law-suits,
warrenty
claims, or people coming back saying that their engine was
destroyed.
Statistically speaking, if they are as bad as everybody claims,
then at
least one person should've come back and complained about something
not
behaving right with their engine by now. Nor have I ever read of a
case in
a performance magazine, web site review, or in a newsgroup saying
that these
things have destroyed, or caused serious damage to someones
engine.
Something you did bring up though in your reply was a lot of
reference to
racing. OK, racing is a sport in which you are constantly
pushing a car to
it's limits on all aspects (and keeping the car at those
limits for extended
periods of time). When you're running at those
extremes, your doing
something that the engine was never really designed for
in the first place
(no, the engine wasn't designed to be pushed at it's
extreme limits and be
kept there for really long periods of time).
There's not much in this world
(if anything) that is designed to run at it's
most extreme limits for long
periods of time and not break or wear out in
some way. There must be some
kind of damage or wear (no matter how
slight) considering the fact that they
constantly rebuild their engines after
every race, and replace major engine
parts on a regular basis. To
handle the extreme conditions of racing,
you're going to prep your car
appropriately to handle it. The fact that a
race car driver uses a
heavy dampened pulley for long races just says to me,
fine, the underdrive
pulley isn't made for that type of use. Would you use
every day street
break pads or rotors on a race track? No, you use pads and
rotors that
are designed to take that kind of punishment. So comparing
these
pulleys using racing as an example I don't think is a good comparison
(unless
the these pulleys are claiming that they can handle this, and I
never got
that impression). Also, consider the power that racing engines
kick
out. The overall engine has to be designed and made to take that
kind
of power properly. I never considered these pulleys to be used in
cars with
that class of power.
From what I understand these are a
minor performance upgrade to give you a
little extra power for dailly
driving, that stoplight challenge, or if you
go to the track or drag-strip
from time to time to run some time-trials. I
never got the impression
that these are to be used in NASCAR, Indy class
runs, or any other form of
professional racing of this type or cars of this
calibur. So unless
you're turning your car into the 500+ hp, 400+ ft/lbs
torque beast from hell
and are going to run it in every single racing event
you can get into, then I
personally don't think you'll ever see any bad
effects from this
product.
So what does all this mean, it means whatever it wants to mean
to the people
on both sides of this issue. There's a good argument from
both sides (and a
passionate one at that), and you're going to believe what
you're going to
believe (you alone are not going to change my mind without
more concrete
proof, and I alone am not going to change your mind without the
same from
your perspective). I've just seen some little personal
attacks and stabs at
the people who buy these pulleys and feel that you can
present your issues
with the product in a way that's not condescending to
those of us who do own
and use them. You'll notice, that at the end of
every email from someone
who's bought a pulley, we usually say something
meaning, 'I can offer you my
experiences with the product, but research it
for yourself and make up your
own mind." What I usually hear from
everybody else is something like,
"They're the most worthless pieces of
crap on the planet, and anybody who
uses one has got to be an
idiot." Hmmmm, well, I'd rather go with the
honest person who's
telling me to go find out for myself, rather than the
person that likes to
present personal attacks against people who use them
(it really does take
away from your credibility). It's just an on-going
debate with 2 sides
to the issue just like any other debate. I'm not going
to call you
stupid for not using them, and I don't expect to be called
unintelligent for
using them.
Latuh fuh U,
Benson
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:31:15
+0100
From: "RG" <
robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Dyno Tune info
***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end
for more info.***
Our cars should be tested in fourth ! The ratio
doesn't play any rule if the dyno is a true AWD one.
The dyno session
always stops when the power falls off. Therefore you'll get a measurment between
1500 and 6200.
When you measure this in the UK you may have the new DIN
version. Therefore you can expect 310PS and about 410Nm
Let me know the
type of the dyno and also let them record the boost on the sheet. If possible
scan the results and send it to me for comparisons.
Cheers
Roger,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TT
> I am trying to have my Pearl White
1998 GTO, turbo, 6 speed (ex Japan) Dyno tuned. My chap asked some
simple
> questions I was unable to answer, can anybody help?
>
1. gear ratio in 6th gear
> 2. diff
ratio`s
> 3. top revs of car
>
4. and my own question of.... what results should
I expect from him from a normally expired car
> of 8,000 Kilometres
with the cats knocked out (recently).
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:01:39
+0100
From: "RG" <
robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Exhaust vs. Fuel
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for more info.***
The cheapest next step is getting rid of the
pre-cats. This will probably not result in more horsepower (but I think so) but
definitely better turbine spool up and therefore better et's. After this a
downpipe will increase the effect a little more as the 90° angle for the
exhaust connection is eliminated.
In more or less stock version of the
engine and turbos, one want to increase the boost above 14-15psi as there is
where the power lies. But this increase of boost causes heavy increase of
discharge temperatures and earlier detonation. This because the 9b running out
of the efficiency map ! Now bigger turbos help to keep the air temp down but
also shed more air. Therefore more fuel is needed but the stock 360cc are not
able to deliver the juice.
The simpliest way to cool down the chamber is
by dumping fuel in. Therefore, larger injectors with a fuel computer are
necessary. But then you wash out the cylinders and will get into other problems
when running super rich to prevent detonation. Of course with a good fuel
computer this will only be the case when it is needed.
I went the way
with the WIS to control detonation and today I'm able to run 1.18 bars without
problems with my 13g. The discharge temperature is still 144°C what is very
high but about 20 or more degrees lower as with the 9b. Now, I can't run higher
boost due to the fuel cut the ECU initiates and therefore a fuel upgrade is
necessary.
To summarize the words a good path to go is :
- - Stage
1 : Air Filter, Boost Controller (BOV if nec.)
- - gutting pre-cats
- -
dp, highflow or no main cat
- - Stage 2 : Fuel upgrade, mild (440, AFC/ECU),
normal (550, VPC/ARC/ECU), wild (720, VPC/ARC/ECU), fuel pump
- - Stage 3 :
Turbo Upgrade, mild (13G), wild (15G, GT-355), crazy (17G), stupid damn crazy
(GT-368...yes I know !)
- - intercooling, exhaust, porting .....
- - Stage
4 : Engine internals
Of course, the wisest upgrade is turbos and fuel
system at the same time ... It's the optimum performance ! When using larger
turbos or even 15G I recommend to upgrade the intercooler for the large airflow.
To prevent excessive fuel or no race fuel is available I recommend a WI system
to control detonation and keep the fuel for the power ... this is what it is
made for !
I only recommend an ECU change for more control on the timing.
Fuel wise are more problems ahead and you'd need a fine tuning device anyways
!
Roger
93'3000GT TT
> Thanks all
for the downpipe advice. Quick mod list: Stillen K&N intake,
>
Borla exhaust, GReddy boost meter, Hallman boost controller (suspension=
>
Intrax and GABs). After reading Roger's treatise on knock at Team3S
FAQ's
> it sounds like exhaust is not the problem. What then is the
next move? Fuel
> pump and 550cc injectors (plus computer chip)? 15g
turbos? Both? Roger
> definitely says we can apply more fuel to no
avail without upgraded turbos.
> Sorry for
extended newbie queries, but would rather spend money wisely.
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 04:08:47
-0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Admin: The Archives are Back UP!
***This is the NEW Team3S list.
See message end for more info.***
Access them from the Team3S home
page...
www.stealth-3000gt.stBest,
Forrest
for
the Admin
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 10:33:58
-0500 (EST)
From: Andrew Burke <
burke@pas.rochester.edu>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Couple questions...
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message end for more info.***
> Had you checked the archives (JUST
KIDDING! :-) ), you would have seen the
> following note:
> >
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/archive/9909.zip>
>
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/archive/9910.zip>
>
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/archive/9911.zip>
>
http://www.stealth-3000gt.st/archive/9912.zip:>
right, i saw that, but I thought that were going to have a
searchable
index?
If there are no plans to do this, let me know... i'm
a sysadmin and I have
some space at various places and can make it all
searchable...
so, this is an offer to host a searchable archive of the
mailing list
provided that someone gives me all the messages in a
semi-reasonable
format...
andy
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 11:34:46
-0500
From: Jeff Schwartz <
jeff.schwartz@citicorp.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Is there a clutch inspection plate?
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list. See message end for more info.***
Does anyone know if there is
a clutch inspection plate to be
able to inspect the clutch with out ripping
the thing apart?
Thanks,
- --
Jeff Schwartz
1995 Panama
Green Pearl VR4
Borla, K&N, and Magnecors
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 08:34:48
-0800
From: "Geoff Mohler" <
gemohler@tgn.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Is there a clutch inspection plate?
***This is the NEW Team3S list. See
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Nope, Mitsu wasnt as gifted as Toyota
and others when spec'ing the tranny.
The Ass-O-Meter is the only way to
test out a clutch.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff
Schwartz" <
jeff.schwartz@citicorp.com>
To:
"3000GT Team3:" <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Wednesday, February 02, 2000 8:34 AM
Subject: Team3S: Is there a clutch
inspection plate?
> ***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message
end for more info.***
>
>
> Does anyone know if there is a
clutch inspection plate to be
> able to inspect the clutch with out
ripping the thing apart?
> Thanks,
> --
> Jeff
Schwartz
> 1995 Panama Green Pearl VR4
> Borla, K&N, and
Magnecors
>
>
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>
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>
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:21:49
-0500
From: Del A Kolasinski <
pearlvr42c@juno.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Unorthodox Pulley Is Bad For Engine
***This is the NEW Team3S
list. See message end for more info.***
Actually Benson it was a
great message to read to actually beable to read
something colorful and not
dull and drab was great. Jack is stating a
VERY VALID point with a
great list of people/companies that agree. Hey
the guy is on here to
open everyone's eyes that a 150 dollar pulley which
does little to nothing
for us is not worth the risk of a VERY costly
engine rebuild. And
unlike many on the list, Jack knows what does and
what doesn't work, that's
why there is only 1 3000GT in the 10's for the
past 3
years!
Del
________________________________________________________________
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PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software,
visit:
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 19:55:35
+0100
From: Matthews <
matthews@wiesbaden.vistec.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Dyno tune info
***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message
end for more info.***
> > I am trying to have my Pearl White
1998 GTO, turbo, 6 speed (ex Japan) Dyno tuned. My chap asked some
simple
> > questions I was unable to answer, can anybody help?
>
> > 4. and my own question of.... what
results should I expect from him from a normally expired car
> >
of 8,000 Kilometres with the cats knocked out (recently).
RG
wrote:
>
> When you measure this in the UK you may have the new DIN
version. Therefore you can expect 310PS and about 410Nm
If you see
figures this high from your normally-aspirated car, you are WAY ahead
of the
game! I think Roger's numbers are for a stock turbo. Take a look at
the
dyno results on my page or Roger's page to see how commonly (mildly)
modified
turbo cars performed. The conversion factors are there, too
(KW -> DIN PS ->
SAE HP and NM -> LB-FT). Good luck - it's a
lot of fun!
- --
Jim Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
mailto:matthews@wiesbaden.vistec.net
(64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.vistec.net/~matthews***
3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.vistec.net/~matthews/stealth.htmlJet
Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active
Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0
bar @ 72% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Blitz Blow-Off
Valve
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Abex metallic
brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, Top
Speed: 168mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
1 Feb
99 Dyno Session: 406 SAE HP, 354 lb-ft torque
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 20:01:01
+0100
From: Matthews <
matthews@wiesbaden.vistec.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Dyno tune info
***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message
end for more info.***
> I am trying to have my Pearl White 1998
GTO, turbo, 6 speed (ex Japan) Dyno tuned. My chap asked some simple
>
questions I was unable to answer, can anybody help?
>
>
4. and my own question of.... what results should
I expect from him from a normally expired car
> of 8,000 Kilometres
with the cats knocked out (recently).
Sorry, I was confused. First
you say it's a turbo, then you say it's normally
"expired" (which I
read as "aspirated"). Roger's figures are accurate for
a
turbo.
- --
Jim Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
mailto:matthews@wiesbaden.vistec.net
(64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.vistec.net/~matthews***
3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.vistec.net/~matthews/stealth.htmlJet
Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active
Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0
bar @ 72% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Blitz Blow-Off
Valve
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Abex metallic
brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, Top
Speed: 168mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
1 Feb
99 Dyno Session: 406 SAE HP, 354 lb-ft torque
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 15:46:23
-0600
From: xwing <xwing@execpc.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Unorthodox
Pulley Is Bad For Engine
***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end
for more info.***
To quote Smokey Yunick, a legend in engine building
for the last 30+ years, in
his book "Power Secrets" on page
33:
'The flywheel and harmonic balancer should be considered as integral
components
of the crank assembly. These parts are very important,
especially in an
endurance engine. While the engine is running, the
crank is constantly pounded
and twisted by the forces of combustion--or in
the extreme case
detonation--transferred to the crank by the piston and
rod. This produces a
series of torsional or "harmonic" forces
within the crank, and these internal
vibrations are eventually concentrated
at the very front and rear of the crank.
The vibrations focused at the front
of the crank are passed into the harmonic
balancer--where they are dampened
by the rubber-sandwich design of the
balancer--and the forces concentrated at
the rear are fed into the flywheel and
dampened by the drivetrain.
If you don't use a properly designed harmonic dampener at the front,
the
harmonic forces will not be able to pass away from the front of the
crank. This
may be acceptable in a short-track engine-- where light
weight and rapid crank
acceleration are important--but it's not going to work
in a long-distance
engine. In a long-track endurance engine you can't
ignore these forces. At
high crank speeds they're very strong, and when
the flywheel and dampener in an
endurance engine are not properly matched to
the crank you're just begging for
trouble. If there isn't a dampener on
the front, the front journal will pound
against the front main bearing, and
this will inevitably lead to a bearing
failure or, in the extreme case, the
harmonics will pass to the rear of the
crank and the crank will break or
you'll have trouble with the main caps.
Dampeners for high-rpm
endurance engines are generally larger in diameter and
heavier than standard
dampeners. There is a sound reason for this. The
additional
weight is necessary to adequately dampen the harmonics generated at
high
crank speeds. Though I don't like running an engine without a balancer,
a
short-track engine will rev more quickly with a LIGHT dampener. When
you put a
dampener on a long-distance engine make certain it is a
conventional two-piece
dampener that has some sort of dampening material
bonded between the hub and the
weight ring. Never use a one-piece,
solid dampener in such an engine.'
Bill "Grumpy" Jenkins, on
page 33 of his book "The Chevrolet Racing Engine",
states
:
"Every racing engine should be operated with a suitable harmonic
balancer,
sometimes called a torsional dampener, attached stoutly to the
front of the
crankshaft. In long distance engines, it is necessary to
use the largest
balancer available for the best possible dynamic dampening
effect."
This is my point: if you are building your
engine for best LONG TERM (what
would YOU call a car engine expected to last
100,000 + miles!), high rpm ability
then use a proper harmonic dampener, like
Mitsubishi's stock unit, or the
smaller-diameter dampener now available from
Buschur Racing. If you
go through cars alot, don't plan on keeping it a
long time ("endurance"), or
care little for the forces hammering
your engine as described by Smokey above,
then Unorthodox Racing's one-piece,
solid dampener of very light weight is for
you.
The harmonic forces ARE
there, they ARE destructive over time. If you choose
not to care about
them THAT IS FINE, but don't tell people there is nothing
wrong with ignoring
them...or that they don't exist. Say "I don't think
those
harmonic forces are all that important so I'm taking that chance, and
so far
haven't had problems". That would be fine, and
TRUE.
Benson "Latuh fuh U" states in a long message that MY
message was too long and
detailed and so invalidates my
point...
Whatever :)
He also says: The fact that
a
race car driver uses a heavy dampened pulley for long races just says to
me,
fine, the underdrive pulley isn't made for that type of use.
comparing
these pulleys using racing as an example I don't think is a good
comparison
(unless the these pulleys are claiming that they can handle this,
and I
never got that impression). Also, consider the power that racing
engines
kick out. I never considered these pulleys to be used in
cars with
that class of power.
Sounds like you and Matt need to have a
discussion, because Matt and
Unorthodox SPECIFICALLY advertise it as good for
racing use, how much ET it is
worth
in a race '2 tenths'...
I have
made no personal attacks. I made no mention of anybody's
spelling
errors, as I was
addressing the TOPIC. Calling
something wrong and unintelligent when that's
what it IS,
is not
"personal". The Unorthodox pulley IGNORES the facts of internal
engine
harmonics
and the potential damage they entail. Ignoring
important facts is a good
definition of
unintelligent
decisionmaking. I am not "Mr. touchyfeely don't hurt
anybody's feelings never
say boo." Neither am I cruel.
I have
CITED many companies, from huge to small, and several world-renowned
experts
in the
engine building field, including direct qoutes from books. I
hold myself to a
high standard, and try to support my postions with data so
the strength of the
position is plain. If you all have plenty of
great sources, then
in the spirit of a good discussion, please cite the
authors, books' names, page
numbers as I have,
so we all can judge where
the truth lies. I hope asking for such information
and MORE than
ANECDOTAL
experience is not what you are calling a "personal
attack".
Jack Tertadian
Who understands that discussions and
hashing out disagreements in good fashion
lead to TRUTH,
and does NOT
think disagreeing on facts and techniques constitute a
"personal
attack".
Sometimes these groups are "agreement is
politically correct" and any
disagreement is seen as something
personal...when we all know that we are all
wrong many times, have seen wrong
info posted to the list and just let it slide
because we didn't want to be
labelled as a troublemaker for having honest
differences that NEED talking
about. Vanilla flavor gets boring, if that's all
that you
get!
"Matt Monett (Dynamic Racing)"
wrote:
> If you dont like them dont use them, but there is no,
nun, 0 hard evidence
> linking these pulleys at any motor failures.
And no I am not talking about
> Honda's we only sell parts fpr
3000gt, stealth, and DSM cars. My spelling
> and grammar my not be that
good at 3AM but I have been racing drag cars from
> the age of 15, and
have built motors that have run 8's in A-Altered cars.
> This being sed I
understand what you are saying about a non dampened motor,
> in the V8
world you would call it a "HUB". Witch is why I ran mine on my
car
> for about 15,000 miles before we started selling them!
> Also
we have tested them at the track and thy are good for 2/10's (avr. of 5
>
runs) with no other changes to the cars! these tests wer on a 93 rt tt
>
(mine) witch at the time(a lot of mods ago) was running 12.9, and a 92 RT
TT
> witch at the time was running 13.4.
> Also weather you
"find this very difficult to believe" or not we have sold
>
100's of these JUST for 3000gt/stealth, we sell about 20 a month to
>
Non-turbo guys, it is 1 of the best mods that you can do on a non-turbo
car.
> Matt Monett
> www.dynamicracing1.com
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 17:15:00
-0600
From: xwing <xwing@execpc.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Unorthodox
Pulley Is Bad For Engine
***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end
for more info.***
Todd:
That is true, there are other
important factors in engine longevity;
so, as a conservative engine builder I
try to build/plan every component
as well as possible so as to minimize the
CHANCE of problems
developing. Dealing with crank harmonics is ONE
element of
good engine design. I'm sure there are any number of places
one
can cut corners/take chances and still do ok. It's just that
statistically, the
more
corners you cut, the likelier failure becomes as
the engine is operated
over time...the existence of crank harmonics is
indisputable. How much
a factor in OUR Mitsu V6 is a question;
I'm not willing to go against
logical, accepted standard practice unless
there is ALOT of evidence
saying we SHOULD go against standard
practice. Anecdotal experiences
from 'hundreds' of people most or all
of whom have never dragged as fast
as even MY car, and most of whom may not
go to a roadcourse as I
do, doesn't carry much weight with me. They
carry SOME weight, just
not ALOT of weight...not ENOUGH to make me change my
thinking, which
is based on readings by authors who HAVE built MAX-EFFORT
engines used
to ultimate potential. Local shops and businesses
advertising product just
don't carry the weight of evidence I require.
Others need less evidence
to change their minds; that is their
right.
I freely admit I am conservative in my thinking, and come at
this
from the standpoint of building the BEST POSSIBLE
"Gold
Standard" engine. If you want to use my positions as the
most
conservative, and want to adventure a little more "onto the
edge" than
I feel comfortable doing, that's ok for you!
Jack
Tertadian
"Todd D.Shelton" wrote:
> >While I
mostly agree with Jack's assessment below it seems
> >to me that almost
every power enhancing modification
> >we perform could fall in this
catagory? Is there any doubt
> >a 600+ hp S/3K motor will most
likey not last as long as
> >a stock 300-320 hp S/3K? The
no air filter is a good
> >point illustration example but a bit
extreme. :) Monster turbos, heat
> >and high boost will degrade
our motors mucch quicker than an
> >underdrive pulley IMO. [based on my
unfortunate experiences]
> >- tds
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 18:28:16
-0600
From: Matt Jannusch <MAJ@BigCharts.com>
Subject: Team3S: Part
# for Supra fuel pump?
***This is the NEW Team3S list. See message end
for more info.***
Anyone have the part number handy? I think
that's the way I'm going to go for the pump on my car...
- -Matt
'95
3000GT Spyder VR4
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------------------------------
End of team3s V1
#47
********************