team3s
Monday, January 17
2000 Volume 01
: Number
028
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 16 Jan 2000 21:26:14 EST
From:
Topofwrld1@aol.comSubject: Re: Team3S:
Question about ABS
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In a message dated 01/16/2000 4:52:07 AM Mountain
Standard Time,
robby@freesurf.ch
writes:
<<
> ABS is dangereous on snow or dirt. the stopping
distances are doubled to
> quadrupled, compared to a skilled
driver.
No, our tests and my snow- and ice driving experience over all
this years
here in the Alps tell a different story. Oh, by the way, even with
ABS
activated you can still control the pressure force you give with the
foot.
ABS is an emergency aiding braking system.
>>
Lots of interesting discussion on ABS. On very steep loose
dirt or shale
slopes my Dodge (well..er...ummm. Dodge Durango), I am
standing on my brakes
at about 2 mph and it feels that it will not stop.
These are trails that
don't get the same panic reaction in my Dodge
Ramcharger or Jeep Cherokee.
Could this apparent problem be caused by the
ABS sensing the wheels are going
very slow and not allowing them to lock
up? A variation of this happened on
super glare ice in my
Stealth. The ABS did not kick in. I think the ABS
thought I was
stopped because all wheels locked at the same time so it didn't
activate. I
don't see the Stealth situtation as a hazard as nothing would
have made much
difference.
My friend's Range Rover has an off-road setting for his ABS
but I don't know
what it does. Any thoughts on the potential for this kind
of hazard with ABS?
Dennis
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:02:01
-0800
From: "Murat Okcuoglu" <
murat@dellnet.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Question about ABS
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> I mostly disagree on this topics ! Or do
you think the people in DTM and
> other circle track events are that bad
drivers so they installed ABS ?
Roger and others,
This is a
very controversial topic. I respect your opinion. My opinion is
based on my
experience and the feedback I got from many ABS engineers. I
have been
working for the automotive industry for the last 15 years. I did
test ABS on
all major manufacturers test tracks along with their test
drivers. Every
year, I spend weeks in test tracks in arctic circle to
perfect ABS
tuning.
It is a tool useful for many but not all drivers. It also depends on
the
circumstances. if one is going to work early in the morning
before
completely awake or coming off a bar late at night, one better should
have
ABS. on the track or concentrated driving, I prefer not to use
ABS.
For the humps, try going over a nice hill, the ones where you
feel
weightless for a moment. At that instant, you have no brakes for almost
a
second. there is not much ABS can do to distinguish under the
circumstances.
It is terrible and dangerous, but as with all automotive
systems, ABS is a
compromise.
I will tell you about my opinion on
airbags, on a different occasion.
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 22:05:26
-0800
From: "Murat Okcuoglu" <
murat@dellnet.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Question about ABS
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end for more info.***
> Could this apparent problem be caused by
the ABS sensing the wheels are
going
> very slow and not allowing them
to lock up? A variation of this happened
on
> super glare ice in
my Stealth. The ABS did not kick in. I think the ABS
> thought I was
stopped because all wheels locked at the same time so it
didn't
>
activate. I don't see the Stealth situtation as a hazard as nothing
would
> have made much difference.
>
> My friend's Range Rover
has an off-road setting for his ABS but I don't
know
> what it does.
Any thoughts on the potential for this kind of hazard
with
ABS?
>
The mechanics of effective braking on loose surfaces
such as dirt or snow
requires wheel lockup and subsequent collection of loose
material in front
of the tire. ABS does not allow this to happen, decreasing
braking
efficiency.
again,. ABS tuning is a compromise, to work acceptably
under all conditions.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 00:55:58
+0100
From:
lehir@genesiscom.ch
(Genesiscon Lehir)
Subject: RE: Team3S: Question about ABS
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the NEW Team3S list. See message end for more info.***
Hello
everyone....
>>I mostly disagree on this topics !
I'm afraid
I disagree with you on on that one.....:-)
>> Or do you think the
people in DTM and
>>other circle track events are that bad drivers so
they installed ABS ?
Well, there are a LOT of different ABS....and some
are better than others...
and....F1 drivers do NOT use
ABS.....so....
I do NOT know about the one in the Mitsu 3000, but I know
the '92
RT/TT...and it SUCKS...
>>In 80% of the cases even the
most experienced driver caused the wheels to
>>lock up.
Not a
real problem if the driver immediately releases the pressure just
BELOW the
lock point.
>> At this point he looses against ABS.
As said
before, it depends WHICH ABS...
>> We made so many tests during our
driving and racing schools and only
>>the M3 we had came pretty close
to the braking distance like ABS did.
I did several tests at TCS (touring
club Suisse), and I can outbrake a LOT
of 1st gen ABS...
Like in my Toyota
Supra Turbo, Celica GT4, Subaru SVX.(I do not have these
cars anymore)
I
can match my ABS in my 300 ZX TT (still have it)..
These tests were made
on a plastic surface simulating heavy rain...
>> With more and more
experience I was able
>>not to lock up the wheels but with a lot of
concentration.
That's a good point....without ABS, you need a LOT of
concentration.
>> And what if yo uhave to brake and turn the lane
at the same time because
a child jump >>onto the street ?
Well,
depends how you drive....(and, BTW, I've been in your car....you drive
better
than that....:-)
>> Without ABS you gonna loose your end and our
tests showed that
>>the (dummy) child got hit by the end of the car.
Not with ABS !
for an average driver, or with an improper
technique...maybe.....but
otherwise....
>>You know what happens
when two wheels are on slippery road and the
others
on
>>dry.
Yup. I know ;-)
>> Now a racing
driver does this every day but not we "normal"
>>humans. I
had this situation in rain and had hydroplaning on one side
when
I
>>had to do the emergency braking. The ABS did the perfect
job and I just
had
>>to step onto the brakes as hard as I can (CDs
flying around....) and was
>>able to concentrate for the steering wheel
including looking in the
mirror.
>>Hey, we humans are not multitask
compatible so this is why we develop such
>>things !
Agree, ABS
can do that...BUT...it will INCREASE your stropping distance
as
well...
Remember that nice G-forces analyst I
have...
>>No, our tests and my snow- and ice driving experience
over all this years
>>here in the Alps tell a different
story.
Well.....I did a couple tests (normal procedure for me when I get
a new
car), and the ABS in MY RT/TT (once again, yours might be better)
is
AWFUL.....
>>ABS is an emergency aiding braking
system.
Yes, but......I simply HATE to have an "aid" that will
more than double my
stopping distance on snow/ice.
It's performance is
acceptable on dry pavement, and "about" ok on a
wet
one...
>>Yes, the ones from 15 years ago did this. ABS is
inactivated when the
wheels
>>do not turn anymore.
Well...I'm
afraid my ABS is 15 years old then...
and the fact that my ABS is governed by
the wheel with the LEAST traction
makes me think it's quite an old design,
indeed.
>>Oh, it safed my front also at 20mph in snow as I was able
to make a turn
in
>>snow with pushing the pedal :-)
ABS will
ALWAYS allow you to TURN...this is not the point...NOT breaking
at
all
allows you to turn as well.....point is....you MAY be able to steer
without
thinking about the panic stop....BUT....you'll need a LONGER distance
to
stop. And IMHO, TWICE the distance is NOT acceptable....
> my
personal opinion after 15 years of vehicle dynamics experience.
> to
answer your question, even if the vehicle is on a straight line, tire
>
lock up will let the tail fo sideways. so, ABS is needed regardless of
>
steering wheel position (for ordinary drivers)
>>Yep, I totally
agree.
Me too...but.....if you know what you're doing....
In
__MY__ case...when there's snow....the ABS fuse is.....missing..
Just a
clarification....I'm not telling that eveyone should disable
their
ABS...
In __MY__ case, I do the following
DRY : ABS :
ON
WET : ABS : ON
SNOW: ABS : OFF (and I got that nice light to remind me
it's off)
and....I practiced NOT locking my tires a many many many
times...and I know
how to do it.
Henri..
Crazy Swiss driving on
snow....
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 05:24:36
-0600
From: Matt Jannusch <
MAJ@BigCharts.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Question about ABS
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end for more info.***
> for an average driver, or with an improper
technique...maybe.....
> but otherwise....
This is probably the
central issue with ABS. The problem is that everybody thinks they are
better than average. At what level do you need to be to be able to
outbrake the ABS controller? 80%? 90%?
I agree that the ABS
in Mitsubishi-built cars is a terrible system, however for a driver who doesn't
normally drive at the limits and isn't familiar with how a car reacts in a skid
it is still advanageous to have ABS. I'd say that covers at least 90% of
people out there, including about 50% of the people who *think* they are great
drivers.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 14:06:03
+0100
From: "R.G." <
robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Question about ABS
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end for more info.***
I must agree with our ABS system being one of
the worst....well I drive Z28 with ABS too and must say it is even worser. The
96+ Bosch 4-channel on the 3000GT is much better.
For racing, Formula 1
has ABS forbidden some years ago, WRC has also no ABS AFAIK, but BCR and older
DTM had it. I for myself learned to drive under track conditions with ABS but
almost never engaged it. But it helped for sure on bad situations
:-)
Roger
93'3000GT TT
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:58:22
+0100
From: Matthews <matthews@wiesbaden.vistec.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Question about ABS
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end for more info.***
Topofwrld1@aol.com wrote:
>
> Lots
of interesting discussion on ABS. On very steep loose dirt or
shale
> slopes my Dodge (well..er...ummm. Dodge Durango), I am standing on
my brakes
> at about 2 mph and it feels that it will not stop. These are
rails that
> don't get the same panic reaction in my Dodge Ramcharger or
Jeep Cherokee.
>
> Could this apparent problem be caused by the ABS
sensing the wheels are going
> very slow and not allowing them to lock
up? A variation of this happened on
> super glare ice in my
Stealth. The ABS did not kick in. I think the ABS
> thought I was
stopped because all wheels locked at the same time so it didn't
>
activate.
Well, I'm not an ABS expert like some on the list, but here's
my take on
the situation:
When you lock up the brakes, the ABS sees
that your wheels have
decelerated too fast and releases brake pressure, but
your tires don't
bite into the loose surface well enough to get spinning
again before the
next ABS pulse. Despite the fact that our cars have a
G-force sensor,
all ABS knows about how your vehicle is interacting with the
road is
from the wheels! If it releases your brakes and your wheels
don't start
spinning, then how is it to know that you're still moving?
In this case
you would have to manually pulse the brakes...
>
My friend's Range Rover has an off-road setting for his ABS but I don't
know
> what it does.
My guess is that the Range Rover's off-road
setting would allow more
time between brake pulses, giving the
reduced-traction surface time to
get the wheels turning again.
The ABS
in our cars is surely optimized for what the manufacturer
considers normal
driving environments for a high-performance GT. Yes,
AWD gives our cars
a heck of a lot more practicality over other cars in
its class, but just
because you can out accelerate everything on the
road in adverse conditions
doesn't mean you can control the speed any
better!
- --
Jim
Matthews 3SI #30
Wiesbaden,
Germany
http://rover.wiesbaden.vistec.net/~matthews/stealth.html
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:59:51
+0100
From: Matthews <matthews@wiesbaden.vistec.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Question about ABS
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end for more info.***
Genesiscon Lehir wrote:
>
> I do
NOT know about the one in the Mitsu 3000, but I know the '92
> RT/TT...and
it SUCKS...
I assume that the system in the 3000GT is identical to that
in the
Stealth, and I don't know if any improvements were made in the
2nd
gens. In my car, straight line stopping distances with ABS
seem
excessive, but when I have to steer, control is
adequate.
Remember that we canNOT have four-phase ABS due to AWD!
So it is not
surprising that some cars (2WD) have more effective ABS than our
cars.
Also keep in mind that many of us are running on tires that are
perhaps
less than optimal for cold weather conditions.
> ABS
will ALWAYS allow you to TURN...this is not the point...NOT breaking at
>
all
> allows you to turn as well.....point is....you MAY be able to steer
without
> thinking about the panic stop....BUT....you'll need a LONGER
distance to
> stop. And IMHO, TWICE the distance is NOT
acceptable....
This was the point of my original post. ABS is
indespendible for
steering control when at threshold braking. BUT, when
NOT turning, it
seems like a DISadvantage. Hence the idea of a switch
that is activated
by the steering angle sensor. If lack of ABS and
experience causes the
car to begin spinning, then a steering correction will
reactivate ABS,
which will likely save your butt.
I think Roger's (and
others') point is that in some situations (eg-
extreme traction difference
between left and right side) the spin could
be so abrupt that it might be too
late for the driver to react and
recover, even when ABS kicks
in.
> Just a clarification....I'm not telling that eveyone should
disable their
> ABS...
> In __MY__ case, I do the following
>
> DRY : ABS : ON
> WET : ABS : ON
> SNOW: ABS : OFF (and I
got that nice light to remind me it's off)
Well, I don't think I'd go
that far! :-| I think I'm pretty good at
avoiding lockup without
ABS, too, but I'm not as good as ABS is
(especially in a panic
situation)! And in the Alps, there's no reset
button when you miss the
curve and take a short cut down the mountain...
- --
Jim
Matthews 3SI #30
Wiesbaden,
Germany
http://rover.wiesbaden.vistec.net/~matthews/stealth.html
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:29:37
+0200
From: "Oleg-Telia" <Oleg@telia.lv>
Subject: Team3S:
problem with brakes
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Maybe somebody has experienced the same problem.
The
steering wheel starts to shake badly at speed between 40/70 mph when
I'm
pushing brakes. When I bought this car (03.99), the problem already
existed.
Old brake rotors were OK, but as I didn't know what to do, I bought
new
(Stillen drilled). I changed brake pads (Metal matrix), brake lines
and
brake fluid also. Nothing was changed! I have two wheel sets, everything
is
perfectly balanced, so the matter isn't all mentioned.
What can be
done? I am totally upset, what for do I need 0-60 in 4 seconds
if I don't
have normal brakes?
Mitsu dealership can't can't find a matter, the
diagnostics shows that
everything is OK.
Please
help!
Olegs,
94'VR4
www.3000gt.lv
3si
#0441
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------------------------------
End of team3s V1
#28
********************