--
From:
owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
(Team3S Digest)
To:
stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.comSubject:
Team3S Digest V1 #364
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender:
owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.comErrors-To:
owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.comPrecedence:
bulk
Team3S Digest Thursday,
December 23 1999 Volume 01 : Number
364
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:21:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: EGT Temps
Trevor, Mike, and Team
Here is another point
of reference for 3S EGTs. I am
using two GReddy EGT guages. There is a
pyrometer in
each manifold before the turbo. These were installed
while
the engine was removed for rebuilding. With the
modifications I have listed
below, the temperatures
max out at about 800C at WOT over a short time.
(I
don't know what the number might be if at WOT for an
extended time.)
With my setup and 10 psi, the
injectors are at 100% IDC and knock is around
25. But
even at 12 psi, the EGT does not approach 900C. Idle
and cruise
temps are around 400-600C. Extended idle
temps are less than
300C.
Jeff Lucius <
StealthMan92@yahoo.com>
red 1992
Stealth R/T TT; 186 CI; completely rebuilt,
race-prepped and balanced engine;
0.050" oversized
forged, no-silicon Venolia pistons; head flow
work
and port matching; Magnecor 8.5 mm; RC balanced stock
injectors to
380 cc/min; TEC 15Gs; GT Alley
intercoolers and 2" piping; K&N
FIPK; improved
pre-cats; complete ATR exhaust; EVC IV; 2 EGT,
boost, and
FP gauges; Centerforce DF clutch;
PowerStop rotors, Metal Matrix pads, SMC
brake
lines; Nitto NT-555 P245/45ZR17; TMO Datalogger;
280 HP at wheels
using G-Tech Pro at 11.4 psi
boost and 5200 ft elevation.
- -----
Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chapleski" <
mike.chapleski@attglobal.net>
To:
"Trevor L. James" <
trevor@kscable.com>;
"Team3S"
<
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Sent:
Tuesday, December 21, 1999 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: EGT
Temps...
... snip
Everyone I know on the list that has installed
the
probe in that position <before turbo> has reported
similar
results.
... snip
"Trevor L. James"
wrote:
> Just finished my Autometer Air/Fuel and EGT Gauge
>
install. Tell me if these readings
> sound high:
> Idle-790
F
> WOT-1620 F (pegs the gauge out)
...
snip
__________________________________________________
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Date:
Tue, 21 Dec 1999 18:34:17 -0500
From: "Becky and Dave" <
bdtrent@netzero.net>
Subject:
Team3S: EGT's
Prior to making fuel upgrades, while running 13g's @ 15
psi, I was also
getting 950C+ EGT readings. (I got off the throttle
when I saw it hit 950,
so I don't know how high it might have gotten).
I took this as a clear
indicator that I needed a fuel upgrade. To
repeat something that has been
said many times before; not only did an
injector upgrade drop my EGT's to a
consistant 900C but it also was one of
the single biggest performance
improvements I made. If you want to run
more boost, IMO, you wont get the
HP until you upgrade the
fuel.
Regards,
Dave
T
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders
of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.htmlFor
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 21 Dec 1999 20:19:39 -0500
From: smii <
smii@mediaone.net>
Subject: Team3S:
Downforce
Hello everybody,
I just figured that if anyone on the
list is interested in increasing
downforce to the rear of your car, Veilside
has just opened their U.S.
website that shows a rear carbon fiber adjustable
spoiler for our cars.
www.veilsideusa.comAnyway, just
some info that could prove valuable at the track.
Boris
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 21 Dec 1999 22:59:03 EST
From:
TrboDrvr@aol.comSubject: Re: Team3S: A
Strange noise coming from my car.
Did you try the carrier bearings on the
driveshaft?
JOe 91TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 22 Dec 1999 00:07:43 -0600
From: "Trevor L. James" <
trevor@kscable.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: EGT's
By the way I just gutted my pre-cats tonight and installed
a ATR downpipe (minus main
cat). EGT's dropped around 40F overall. Not much I
know but a little cooler. It's still
peaking at 1600F(871C) after extended
WOT. 60MPH cruise in 6th on level ground was
roughly 1250F(677C).
Current
mods:
HKS EVC
IV@14.94psiNGK
Plugs@.034"
Accel Wires
K&N FIPK
Greddy Type S BOV
ATR
Downpipe (No main cat)
Gutted Pre-cats
Casper Electronics O2 Sensor
Simulators
Autometer EGT and Air/Fuel Ratio gauges
Later This
week:
15G's
HKS VPC
HKS Fuel Pump
RC Engineering 550CC
Injectors
I'm hoping these mods will chill the EGT's
some...
Trevor
96 R/T TT
92 GMC Typhoon
Becky and Dave
wrote:
> Prior to making fuel upgrades, while running 13g's @ 15 psi,
I was also
> getting 950C+ EGT readings. (I got off the throttle
when I saw it hit 950,
> so I don't know how high it might have
gotten). I took this as a clear
> indicator that I needed a fuel
upgrade. To repeat something that has been
> said many times
before; not only did an injector upgrade drop my EGT's to a
>
consistant 900C but it also was one of the single biggest performance
>
improvements I made. If you want to run more boost, IMO, you wont get
the
> HP until you upgrade the fuel.
>
> Regards,
> Dave
T
>
> __________________________________________
> NetZero -
Defenders of the Free World
> Get your FREE Internet Access and Email
at
>
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFor
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 22 Dec 1999 00:16:51 -0600
From: "Trevor L. James" <
trevor@kscable.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Which wires are which, post-cat O2 sensors...
Gutted my pre-cats tonight
and installed a pair of casper electronics O2 sensor
simulators. They're
supposed to kick out the correct voltage to make the computer think
that the
pre-cats are still there. Here are the wires that they wanted and what
color
wire from the O2 harness I spliced into it.
O2 Signal Wire-I used
white because the front/upper signal wire was the white one
+12V Heater
Wire-I used blue because the other two are black
Sensor
Ground-Black
Chassis Ground-Black
Well after splicing them together I get
a check engine light. These aren't guaranteed to
work on our cars. As far as
I know I'm the first one to try them. They're designed for
OBD II F-bodies
and Vettes (and I've heard of good experiences with them). Do I have my
wires
mixed up? Anybody know which black wire is the "chassis ground" and
which is the
"sensor ground"? Is there a difference? When I get up
in the morning I'll start probing
with the multimeter but it would help my
troubleshooting if you guys have any ideas...
Trevor
96 R/T
TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:31:24 +0100
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?=
<
vr4@bahnhof.se>
Subject: Team3S:
Transfercase oil
Aaarghhh!!!. I forgot my Manual at home, can someone
please please please
post how much oil I have to buy for my transfercase,
It's a 93 VR-4. I will
go with Redline shockproof heavy once again, Last time
I used Redline my
transfer case locked up after two weeks but I'm 100% sure
it wasn't Redlines
fault.
Thanks,
Mikael Akesson
http://www.3000gt.nuFor
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:52:39 +0100
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?=
<
vr4@bahnhof.se>
Subject: Team3S:
Race wing
Hi,
This is something special for all track
drivers!!!
I work together with a company in Sweden on designing a true
race wing for
the 3S cars. The company I work with are specialized in wings
for race cars,
the wings they make are 100% performance, this is not styling
equipment.
However if you like the race look then they are 100% style! The
wing plane
is made out of high grade alu, black anodized is standard but it
can be
polished or painted.
All wings are adjustable and are available
with one or two decks. Our goal
is to use the existing active aero components
so the wing are adjustable
from inside the car and the look will be something
like the 99 VR-4 wing but
more "race". This wing really do work and
are used on real race cars like
BTCC and Rally cross etc. It will produce
more than 100kg downforce (We will
do more precise calculations later) at
normal track speed.
I would like to hear input and ideas from you guys
and I also want to know
how many of you are interested in a wing like this.
(Estimated price=700$)
E-Mail me PRIVATELY if you just want to say that you
are interested.
I have posted a few pics of prototypes that have been
made for other cars
(note the corrado that also have active aero)
http://www.3000gt.nu/wings.htm(Ford
will show them on their Focus Cosworth at the L.A car show in
Januari)
Best regards,
Mikael Akesson
http://www.3000gt.nuFor
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 22 Dec 1999 06:49:24 -0800
From: "Darcy" <
w.c.e@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Transfercase oil
Hey Mikael;
My 92 manual quotes 0.27dm2 or
0.29qt in US measurements. Don't remember
what year yours is or if different
years take different amounts?
Best
Darc
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Mikael Åkesson <
vr4@bahnhof.se>
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
<
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date:
Wednesday, December 22, 1999 5:30 AM
Subject: Team3S: Transfercase
oil
>Aaarghhh!!!. I forgot my Manual at home, can someone please
please please
>post how much oil I have to buy for my transfercase, It's a
93 VR-4. I will
>go with Redline shockproof heavy once again, Last time I
used Redline my
>transfer case locked up after two weeks but I'm 100% sure
it wasn't
Redlines
>fault.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mikael
Akesson
http://www.3000gt.nu>
>
>For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFor
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 22 Dec 1999 07:40:24 -0800
From: Chris Winkley <
cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Downforce
Boris...
I believe Veilside is known for
their cosmetic body kits. I checked out the
web address you posted and saw no
claims for improved downforce from the
rear spoilers listed. For that matter,
I didn't see any claims for improved
performance from any of their body kits.
Do have access to some data you can
share?
BTW...just for the record,
appearance and performance do not (necessarily)
go hand in hand. Even
Mitsubishi, who "should" (IMO) be making changes to
improve
performance changed the 3KGT rear wing in 1998 to the
"popular"
grocery cart style and ending up decreasing the downforce
produced.
Apparently they thought the appearance was more important
than
functionality.
Looking forward...Chris
- -----Original
Message-----
From: smii [
mailto:smii@mediaone.net]
Sent: Tuesday,
December 21, 1999 5:20 PM
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.comSubject:
Team3S: Downforce
Hello everybody,
I just figured that if
anyone on the list is interested in increasing
downforce to the rear of your
car, Veilside has just opened their U.S.
website that shows a rear carbon
fiber adjustable spoiler for our cars.
www.veilsideusa.comAnyway, just
some info that could prove valuable at the track.
Boris
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:28:05 -0500
From: Rick <
rick@ceo-consulting.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: EGT's
At 06:34 PM 12/21/99 -0500, Becky and Dave
wrote:
>Prior to making fuel upgrades, while running 13g's @ 15 psi, I was
also
>getting 950C+ EGT readings. (I got off the throttle when I saw
it hit 950,
>so I don't know how high it might have gotten). I took
this as a clear
>indicator that I needed a fuel upgrade. To repeat
something that has been
>said many times before; not only did an
injector upgrade drop my EGT's to a
>consistant 900C but it also was one
of the single biggest performance
>improvements I made. If you want
to run more boost, IMO, you wont get the
>HP until you upgrade the
fuel.
>
>Regards,
>Dave
T
=======================================
I agree with Dave
100%. As soon as I installed the 550cc injectors, the
car stopped
sputtering, coughing, etc.. at 15psi. I did not have an EGT
gauge like
he did, so I have no idea what my temps were, but I am sure they
must have
been quite high (not good)
With the new injectors, the car not only
stopped all that coughing,
sputtering, etc, at high boost, but it also pulls
*WAY* harder. I have not
taken it to the track yet (clutch now slips in
fourth on the highway with
the new power!) but when I do I will be sure to
post the times.
Regards,
Rick
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:51:12 -0500
From: "John T. Christian" <
jczoom@geocities.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Track exhaust
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
-
--------------8D3F9A099A707E23640F93BA
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hi Rich,
See
you are getting a new exhaust. Here is URL for a picture of my
TRACK
Exhaust. It weighs about 17 #. I run it on the street from
the
start to end of racing season. If you keep your foot out of the
gas,
its not very loud. Never been stopped. The local autocross
clubs and
the road courses don't complain. But, I can't run the quiet
time
session on Sunday at Road Atlanta---the Black flag comes out for
me.
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Flats/4538/pana_ex2.jpgThe
stock exhaust weighs 84 #. The muffler section alone weighs
about
42#. So there is a weight savings by getting rid of the
stock parts
too.
The downpipe keeps on cracking cause there is
NO braided flex section.
I'm considering building a Stainless downpipe with a
flex section that
can bolt onto the stock CAT or onto the rest of the track
system.
Since the stock section from the CAT back to the mufflers is
3", I could
then just build a pipe to eliminate the stock
mufflers.
\
|
|--------|
\-----|-------==flex==| CAT |------stock
--------------|..pipe....
downpipe
|--------|
That way I wouldn't have to keep putting the stock system back
on in
November for PA State Inspection. BTW the TT passes even without
the
benefit of the pre-CATS.
Be of good cheer
John
- --
JCZoooM 93 TT 12.46@109Mph Now with Porsche brakes &
Supra rotors
Email--->
JCZooM@iname.com http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538-
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-
--------------8D3F9A099A707E23640F93BA--
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:28:46 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <
Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: tire pressure and premium sound system
> I've just got
myself a new set of firestone firehawk sz-50s. just
> curious as to what
is the optimal tire pressure setting for the front
> and rear of our cars
for street driving, and for track racing.
My recent trip to the track for
a high performance driving clinic with SZ 50's
in 275/40/17 on my stock rimed
'91 VR4 yielded about 38 psi front and 34 psi
rear hot temperatures (pressure
checked after 10 minutes of cool down though).
Above that they were way too
loose. After the first session, I checked
pressures and they were
46/42. I lowered about 4 psi for the 2nd, and 4 psi
again for the third
sessions. The third session felt better, and the wear
rolled over on
the edge of the tread about the right amount (see Jeff's post).
- --
If you're not the lead car, your view never changes!
Ken Middaugh
(858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:33:06 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <
Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Wiring for gauge illumination....
> I'm putting Autometer
EGT and A/F Ratio gauges in right now and I can't quite
> remember how to
wire up the lighting. Does the dimmer rheostat panel just pop
> out?
Yes.
> I seem to remember that the dimmer just varies the
ground...am I right?
> If so how do I wire up the light. One wire to 12V
solid when the lights are on
> and one wire to the rheostat?
Just
put a volt meter on the dimmer rheostat wires with the dash lights on
bright,
then on dim. You should be able to find a pair of wires that
measures
higher voltage on bright and lower voltage on dim. Just wire
up to them.
- --
If you're not the lead car, your view never
changes!
Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San
Diego
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:07:39 -0600
From: "Trevor Jones" <
trevor_jones@lacrosse-net.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Apex AVC-R tuning and Stock Turbo Boost Curves
Got the Apex AVC-R
in(thanks again Minn 3/s). Now I'm working on tuning
using the Apex's
RPM based boost setting. My questions are as follow(I
realize that I
could figure out some of these questions by using the Apex's
graphing mode
and doing tests, but if anyone has the info for comparison and
to save some
of the work, it would be much appreciated!=)
Can the stock turbos
maintain 14psi?
At what rpm point are the stock turbos able to reach
14-15psi?
If the stock turbos do maintain 14psi, my boost curve should look
like a
steady climb "/" and then plateau...right?
If it is not
the case that stock turbos can maintain 14-15psi, what rpm
point is it best
to have them peak at? (in correlation with 1/4 mile
drag
racing)
thanks all,
tj
93' 3k VR4
Apex AVC-R
K+N
FIPK
2nd Getrag Tranny
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:29:42 -0500
From: "Wallis, Gavin" <
WallisG@MWAA.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Apex AVC-R tuning and Stock Turbo Boost Curves
Hmm...something in your
train of thought seems odd to me...anyways, here's
what I know.
Stock
turbos can hit well over 14psi, however then can certainly not hold
that to
the redline. I'm going to COMPLETELY guess using my general
knowledge and say
once your at 6500ish RPM your stock turbos are maybe
pushing about 6-9psi. In
the 3000-5000rpm range your stock 9bs can produce a
bunch of boost, probably
up to around 18-20. Why I am telling this to you
though? Your the one with
the the AVC-R :), and I HOPE a quality boost gauge
mounted in plain
view.
What I am not certain of is how high a boost you can run at these
lower rpms
w/out knock. 14.5psi across the board is the safe peak level but I
was under
the suspicion if your able to tune different RPM bands (a feature
that you
do have on a new AVC-R) you may be able to ask for more boost at
lower RPMs.
Also keep in mind that anything much above 14psi is putting the
9b turbos
out of their efficiency island, meaning hotter EGTs usually (do you
have an
EGT?). Although probably not an issue for drag racing, but I
would
definitely recommend a EGT gauge, small price to pay up front for
preventing
what could happen.
You ask the question, what should you
have the turbos peak at. Not sure what
you mean...the turbos peak themselves
by design, each turbo can only flow so
much. The question should be how much
fuel can you supply for the turbos to
reach their peak. I don't believe you
can ever let the stock turbos
naturally "peak" on a stock fuel
setup. They would peak probably around
18-20 like I said, which would be very
dangerous. Perhaps you meant more
like my paragraph before this one,
"what is the highest boost you can run
and in which RPM band?" As
far as "correlation to drag racing", I guess you
mean how much can
I run in a short burst, or as some boost controllers call
it
"scramble". Beats me and probably most people, I wouldn't recommend
going
much above 14.5psi period w/out upgrading your fuel system. Yeah you
may be
able to squeeze 1 or more tenths off your 1/4 but is that really
worth
hurting or blowing your engine? 14.5 is what I've come to know as
the
"standard" for a safe, no fuel mods, boost level for our
V6s.
Lastly, each engine will be different, you really need to use your
AVC-R and
analyze the data it gives you. Then you will know exactly what to
do. Give
us some measurements.
Happy Holidays,
G
-
--> -----Original Message-----
- --> From: Trevor Jones [
mailto:trevor_jones@lacrosse-net.com]
-
--> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 1:08 PM
- --> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com-
--> Subject: Team3S: Apex AVC-R tuning and Stock Turbo Boost Curves
-
-->
- -->
- --> Got the Apex AVC-R in(thanks again Minn
3/s). Now I'm
- --> working on tuning
- --> using the Apex's
RPM based boost setting. My questions are
- --> as follow(I
-
--> realize that I could figure out some of these questions by
- -->
using the Apex's
- --> graphing mode and doing tests, but if anyone has
the info
- --> for comparison and
- --> to save some of the work,
it would be much appreciated!=)
- -->
- --> Can the stock turbos
maintain 14psi?
- --> At what rpm point are the stock turbos able to reach
14-15psi?
- --> If the stock turbos do maintain 14psi, my boost curve
- --> should look like a
- --> steady climb "/" and then
plateau...right?
- --> If it is not the case that stock turbos can
maintain
- --> 14-15psi, what rpm
- --> point is it best to have
them peak at? (in correlation with
- --> 1/4 mile drag
- -->
racing)
- -->
- --> thanks all,
- --> tj
- --> 93' 3k
VR4
- --> Apex AVC-R
- --> K+N FIPK
- --> 2nd Getrag
Tranny
- -->
- --> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFor
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:00:21 -0600
From: "Trevor Jones" <
trevor_jones@lacrosse-net.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Apex AVC-R tuning and Stock Turbo Boost Curves
Sorry if my
post wasn't clear.
Let me re-word somethings. I plan on only
running 14-14.5 psi max with my
stock fuel system. So at the 14-14.5
psi will the stock turbos maintain
that boost level from let's say 3,000rpm
per Gavin's comment(In the
3000-5000rpm range your stock 9bs can produce
a
bunch of boost, probably up to around 18-20) to 6500 rpm? Apparently
not,
because they can only push 6-9psi at higher rpm levels. This has
answered
my first couple of questions. So in reality until I get bigger
turbos,
water injection, etc., setting the boost at 14.5 psi across the
entire rpm
range seems like it would net the most performance(without safety
risk to
the engine), even though the turbos will not be able to sustain 14.5
psi to
redline, and at lower rpm's the turbos will reach 14.5 psi as quickly
as
they can(yes one of the advantages of the rpm based boosting would
be
increasing the boost above 14.5 psi at lower rpm levels, and after i get
my
data logger i will start testing this to see if higher boost levels in
the
3,000-5,000 rpm levels causes knock, and or a lean condition). My
next
question is, why do the turbos actually produce less boost at higher
rpm's.
Being driven by exhaust gas would lead me to believe that at higher
rpm's
the speed at which exhaust gas leaves the head would be faster hence
the
turbos spinning faster and producing as much, if not more boost??
Am I
missing something here? Higher rpm's means more heat so I can
understand
the added danger of higher boost at higher rpm for sustained
periods. My
next step sounds like trying to use the graphing feature of
the Apex unit to
see how quickly(at what rpm) the stock turbos generate a
full 14.5psi(just
out of curiosity), and where they start dropping off.
I was just hoping
that someone had this info, but I guess it's up to me
=) Now if the apex
only had a feature that allowed the user to capture
the graph for an
extended period of time for replay purposes. Apex are
you listening??? By
the way can the data logger capture boost levels at
specified rpm points or
in some type of graph(i haven't received mine
yet)?
thanks,
tj
- -----Original Message-----
From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com[
mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of Wallis, Gavin
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 12:30 PM
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.comSubject:
RE: Team3S: Apex AVC-R tuning and Stock Turbo Boost
Curves
Hmm...something in your train of thought seems odd to
me...anyways, here's
what I know.
Stock turbos can hit well over
14psi, however then can certainly not hold
that to the redline. I'm going to
COMPLETELY guess using my general
knowledge and say once your at 6500ish RPM
your stock turbos are maybe
pushing about 6-9psi. In the 3000-5000rpm range
your stock 9bs can produce a
bunch of boost, probably up to around 18-20. Why
I am telling this to you
though? Your the one with the the AVC-R :), and I
HOPE a quality boost gauge
mounted in plain view.
What I am not
certain of is how high a boost you can run at these lower rpms
w/out knock.
14.5psi across the board is the safe peak level but I was under
the suspicion
if your able to tune different RPM bands (a feature that you
do have on a new
AVC-R) you may be able to ask for more boost at lower RPMs.
Also keep in mind
that anything much above 14psi is putting the 9b turbos
out of their
efficiency island, meaning hotter EGTs usually (do you have an
EGT?).
Although probably not an issue for drag racing, but I would
definitely
recommend a EGT gauge, small price to pay up front for preventing
what could
happen.
You ask the question, what should you have the turbos peak at.
Not sure what
you mean...the turbos peak themselves by design, each turbo can
only flow so
much. The question should be how much fuel can you supply for
the turbos to
reach their peak. I don't believe you can ever let the stock
turbos
naturally "peak" on a stock fuel setup. They would peak
probably around
18-20 like I said, which would be very dangerous. Perhaps you
meant more
like my paragraph before this one, "what is the highest boost
you can run
and in which RPM band?" As far as "correlation to drag
racing", I guess you
mean how much can I run in a short burst, or as
some boost controllers call
it "scramble". Beats me and probably
most people, I wouldn't recommend going
much above 14.5psi period w/out
upgrading your fuel system. Yeah you may be
able to squeeze 1 or more tenths
off your 1/4 but is that really worth
hurting or blowing your engine? 14.5 is
what I've come to know as the
"standard" for a safe, no fuel mods,
boost level for our V6s.
Lastly, each engine will be different, you
really need to use your AVC-R and
analyze the data it gives you. Then you
will know exactly what to do. Give
us some measurements.
Happy
Holidays,
G
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFor
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:02:14 -0600
From: "Basol, John" <
jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Apex AVC-R tuning and Stock Turbo Boost Curves
Hey,
Trevor,
Glad to see your getting some use of the AVC-R. I trust your
drive
home was safe. :-)
To answer your question about boost at
high RPM, you need to realize
that the turbo design itself, will allow for
only so much airflow. At 7k
RPM you are right, the turbo will spin
faster. But you need to remember
that the engine is also consuming more
air, and the casing design and
impeller design of the turbo only allow it to
produce a finite amount of
airflow, no matter how fast the engine
spins. We'll discuss it at the next
MN3S gathering! :-)
[when we install your water injection, hint hint. :-)
]
John
Basol
'95 RT/TT
-----Original Message-----
From: Trevor Jones
[SMTP:trevor_jones@lacrosse-net.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 2:00
PM
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.comSubject:
RE: Team3S: Apex AVC-R tuning and Stock Turbo Boost
Curves
Sorry if my
post wasn't clear.
Let me re-word somethings. I plan on only
running 14-14.5 psi max
with my
stock fuel system. So at the 14-14.5
psi will the stock turbos
maintain
that boost level from let's say
3,000rpm per Gavin's comment(In the
3000-5000rpm range your stock 9bs can
produce a
bunch of boost, probably up to around 18-20) to 6500
rpm?
Apparently not,
because they can only push 6-9psi at higher rpm
levels. This has
answered
my first couple of questions. So in
reality until I get bigger
turbos,
water injection, etc., setting
the boost at 14.5 psi across the
entire rpm
range seems like it would net
the most performance(without safety
risk to
the engine), even though the
turbos will not be able to sustain 14.5
psi to
redline, and at lower rpm's
the turbos will reach 14.5 psi as
quickly as
they can(yes one of the
advantages of the rpm based boosting would
be
increasing the boost above
14.5 psi at lower rpm levels, and after i
get my
data logger i will start
testing this to see if higher boost levels
in the
3,000-5,000 rpm levels
causes knock, and or a lean condition). My
next
question is, why do
the turbos actually produce less boost at higher
rpm's.
Being driven by
exhaust gas would lead me to believe that at higher
rpm's
the speed at
which exhaust gas leaves the head would be faster hence
the
turbos
spinning faster and producing as much, if not more boost??
Am I
missing
something here? Higher rpm's means more heat so I can
understand
the
added danger of higher boost at higher rpm for sustained
periods.
My
next step sounds like trying to use the graphing feature of the
Apex
unit to
see how quickly(at what rpm) the stock turbos generate a
full
14.5psi(just
out of curiosity), and where they start dropping
off. I was just
hoping
that someone had this info, but I guess it's
up to me =) Now if the
apex
only had a feature that allowed the user
to capture the graph for an
extended period of time for replay
purposes. Apex are you
listening??? By
the way can the data
logger capture boost levels at specified rpm
points or
in some type of
graph(i haven't received mine yet)?
thanks,
tj
-----Original
Message-----
From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com[
mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of Wallis,
Gavin
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 12:30 PM
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.comSubject:
RE: Team3S: Apex AVC-R tuning and Stock Turbo Boost
Curves
Hmm...something in your train of thought seems odd to
me...anyways,
here's
what I know.
Stock turbos can hit well over
14psi, however then can certainly not
hold
that to the redline. I'm going
to COMPLETELY guess using my general
knowledge and say once your at 6500ish
RPM your stock turbos are
maybe
pushing about 6-9psi. In the 3000-5000rpm
range your stock 9bs can
produce a
bunch of boost, probably up to around
18-20. Why I am telling this
to you
though? Your the one with the the
AVC-R :), and I HOPE a quality
boost gauge
mounted in plain
view.
What I am not certain of is how high a boost you can run at
these
lower rpms
w/out knock. 14.5psi across the board is the safe peak
level but I
was under
the suspicion if your able to tune different RPM
bands (a feature
that you
do have on a new AVC-R) you may be able to ask
for more boost at
lower RPMs.
Also keep in mind that anything much above
14psi is putting the 9b
turbos
out of their efficiency island, meaning
hotter EGTs usually (do you
have an
EGT?). Although probably not an issue
for drag racing, but I would
definitely recommend a EGT gauge, small price to
pay up front for
preventing
what could happen.
You ask the
question, what should you have the turbos peak at. Not
sure what
you
mean...the turbos peak themselves by design, each turbo can only
flow
so
much. The question should be how much fuel can you supply for
the
turbos to
reach their peak. I don't believe you can ever let the stock
turbos
naturally "peak" on a stock fuel setup. They would peak
probably
around
18-20 like I said, which would be very dangerous. Perhaps
you meant
more
like my paragraph before this one, "what is the
highest boost you
can run
and in which RPM band?" As far as
"correlation to drag racing", I
guess you
mean how much can I
run in a short burst, or as some boost
controllers call
it
"scramble". Beats me and probably most people, I wouldn't
recommend
going
much above 14.5psi period w/out upgrading your fuel system. Yeah
you
may be
able to squeeze 1 or more tenths off your 1/4 but is that
really
worth
hurting or blowing your engine? 14.5 is what I've come to
know as
the
"standard" for a safe, no fuel mods, boost level for
our V6s.
Lastly, each engine will be different, you really need to use
your
AVC-R and
analyze the data it gives you. Then you will know exactly
what to
do. Give
us some measurements.
Happy Holidays,
G
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFor
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFor
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:45:22 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <
Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Apex AVC-R tuning and Stock Turbo Boost Curves
Trevor Jones
wrote:
snip
> My next
> question is, why do the turbos actually
produce less boost at higher rpm's.
Because the engine is consuming more
air than the little turbos can provide,
regardless of the speed the impellars
are turning.
snip
> My
> next step sounds like trying to use
the graphing feature of the Apex unit to
> see how quickly(at what rpm)
the stock turbos generate a full 14.5psi(just
> out of curiosity), and
where they start dropping off. I was just hoping
> that someone had
this info, but I guess it's up to me =)
This will vary with
exhaust mods, but typically in 3rd gear accelerations, 14.5
psi can be
achieved about 2800-3000 RPM. It is usually a little later in 2nd
gear,
about 3200 or so.
> Now if the apex
> only had a feature that
allowed the user to capture the graph for an
> extended period of time for
replay purposes. Apex are you listening???
You can record up
to 60 seconds for one parameter, 30 seconds for 2 parameters,
20 seconds for
3, and 15 seconds for 4. When using the "Rev Y" graph, use
the
"ghost" mode all so points stay lit until reset.
While
Apexi's graphing capability is very useful for looking at the quality of
the
curves, they can't be used to determine exact values due to the resolution
of
the graphs. Instead use the digital readouts with peak hold to get
peak
values.
- --
If you're not the lead car, your view never
changes!
Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San
Diego
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:13:18 CST
From: "Curt Gendron" <
curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Apex AVC-R tuning and Stock Turbo Boost Curves
Exactly,
thanks John!! I guess a easier way to look at it.... The area
between the turbos and the engine is where it is pressurized. As the
engine
sucks in more air,(RPMs going higher) the turbos spin faster and
faster.
When you get close to 6,000rpm the engine is actually sucking
in more air
than the turbos can produce and that is why your pressure is
decreasing. If
you buy bigger turbos, the fin design will be more
aggressive and this
situation won't occur.
Trevor, when your ready
for it, John and I will install Water Injection.
Then you can really
see the turbos drop from 18psi at 4,000 rpm to 11psi at
7,000rpm.
;) But first you should regap your plugs to ~.034 and install a
analog
boost gauge on your a-pillar.
later,
Curt
http://www.mn3s.org>From:
"Basol, John" <
jbasol@carlson.com>
>To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>Subject: RE: Team3S: Apex AVC-R tuning and
Stock Turbo Boost Curves
>Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:02:14
-0600
>
>Hey, Trevor,
> Glad to see your getting some use of
the AVC-R. I trust your drive
>home was safe.
:-)
>
> To answer your question about boost at high RPM, you need to
realize
>that the turbo design itself, will allow for only so much
airflow. At 7k
>RPM you are right, the turbo will spin faster.
But you need to remember
>that the engine is also consuming more air, and
the casing design and
>impeller design of the turbo only allow it to
produce a finite amount of
>airflow, no matter how fast the engine
spins. We'll discuss it at the next
>MN3S gathering! :-)
[when we install your water injection, hint hint.
>:-)
>]
>
>John Basol
>'95
RT/TT
>
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at
http://www.hotmail.comFor
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:18:14 -0600
From: "Bill Davis"
<wjdavis@inlink.com>
Subject: Team3S: Fw: Anti lock
This is a
multi-part message in MIME format.
-
------=_NextPart_000_0068_01BF4D3F.C98B6F20
Content-Type:
text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable
- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: Bill
Davis=20
To: stealth@starnet.net=20
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 1999
12:15 PM
Subject: Anti lock
My anti-lock brake light is staying
on, and I can hear,
I assume the pump running after I shut the car
off.
Any body have any ideas.
Bill Davis 95 VR-4
-
------=_NextPart_000_0068_01BF4D3F.C98B6F20
Content-Type:
text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0
Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META
content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1"
=
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML
5.00.2919.6307"
name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY
bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV
style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message
-----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color:
black"><B>From:</B>
<A=20
href=3D"mailto:wjdavis@inlink.com"
title=3Dwjdavis@inlink.com>Bill =
Davis</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A
href=3D"mailto:stealth@starnet.net"=20
title=3Dstealth@starnet.net>stealth@starnet.net</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 23, 1999
12:15 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Anti
lock</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
face=3DArial size=3D2>My anti-lock brake light is staying on, =
and I
can=20
hear,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial
size=3D2>I assume the pump running after I shut =
the
car=20
off.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial
size=3D2>Any body have any
ideas.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
face=3DArial size=3D2>Bill Davis 95
=
VR-4</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
-
------=_NextPart_000_0068_01BF4D3F.C98B6F20--
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info, our web page is
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