--

From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com (Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S Digest V1 #364
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Errors-To: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Precedence: bulk


Team3S Digest       Thursday, December 23 1999       Volume 01 : Number 364




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:21:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: EGT Temps

Trevor, Mike, and Team

Here is another point of reference for 3S EGTs. I am
using two GReddy EGT guages. There is a pyrometer in
each manifold before the turbo. These were installed
while the engine was removed for rebuilding. With the
modifications I have listed below, the temperatures
max out at about 800C at WOT over a short time. (I
don't know what the number might be if at WOT for an
extended time.) With my setup and 10 psi, the
injectors are at 100% IDC and knock is around 25. But
even at 12 psi, the EGT does not approach 900C. Idle
and cruise temps are around 400-600C. Extended idle
temps are less than 300C.

Jeff Lucius <StealthMan92@yahoo.com>
red 1992 Stealth R/T TT; 186 CI; completely rebuilt,
race-prepped and balanced engine; 0.050" oversized
forged, no-silicon Venolia pistons; head flow work
and port matching; Magnecor 8.5 mm; RC balanced stock
injectors to 380 cc/min; TEC 15Gs; GT Alley
intercoolers and 2" piping; K&N FIPK; improved
pre-cats; complete ATR exhaust; EVC IV; 2 EGT,
boost, and FP gauges; Centerforce DF clutch;
PowerStop rotors, Metal Matrix pads, SMC brake
lines; Nitto NT-555 P245/45ZR17; TMO Datalogger;
280 HP at wheels using G-Tech Pro at 11.4 psi
boost and 5200 ft elevation.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chapleski" <mike.chapleski@attglobal.net>
To: "Trevor L. James" <trevor@kscable.com>; "Team3S"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: EGT Temps...

... snip

Everyone I know on the list that has installed the
probe in that position <before turbo> has reported
similar results. 

... snip

"Trevor L. James" wrote:

> Just finished my Autometer Air/Fuel and EGT Gauge
> install. Tell me if these readings
> sound high:
> Idle-790 F
> WOT-1620 F (pegs the gauge out)

... snip

__________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 18:34:17 -0500
From: "Becky and Dave" <bdtrent@netzero.net>
Subject: Team3S: EGT's

Prior to making fuel upgrades, while running 13g's @ 15 psi, I was also
getting 950C+ EGT readings.  (I got off the throttle when I saw it hit 950,
so I don't know how high it might have gotten).  I took this as a clear
indicator that I needed a fuel upgrade.  To repeat something that has been
said many times before;  not only did an injector upgrade drop my EGT's to a
consistant 900C but it also was one of the single biggest performance
improvements I made.  If you want to run more boost, IMO, you wont get the
HP until you upgrade the fuel.

Regards,
Dave T


__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 20:19:39 -0500
From: smii <smii@mediaone.net>
Subject: Team3S: Downforce

Hello everybody,

I just figured that if anyone on the list is interested in increasing
downforce to the rear of your car, Veilside has just opened their U.S.
website that shows a rear carbon fiber adjustable spoiler for our cars.

www.veilsideusa.com

Anyway, just some info that could prove valuable at the track.

Boris

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 22:59:03 EST
From: TrboDrvr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: A Strange noise coming from my car.

Did you try the carrier bearings on the driveshaft?

JOe 91TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 00:07:43 -0600
From: "Trevor L. James" <trevor@kscable.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: EGT's

By the way I just gutted my pre-cats tonight and installed a ATR downpipe (minus main
cat). EGT's dropped around 40F overall. Not much I know but a little cooler. It's still
peaking at 1600F(871C) after extended WOT. 60MPH cruise in 6th on level ground was
roughly 1250F(677C).
Current mods:
HKS EVC IV@14.94psi
NGK Plugs@.034"
Accel Wires
K&N FIPK
Greddy Type S BOV
ATR Downpipe (No main cat)
Gutted Pre-cats
Casper Electronics O2 Sensor Simulators
Autometer EGT and Air/Fuel Ratio gauges

Later This week:
15G's
HKS VPC
HKS Fuel Pump
RC Engineering 550CC Injectors

I'm hoping these mods will chill the EGT's some...

Trevor
96 R/T TT
92 GMC Typhoon

Becky and Dave wrote:

> Prior to making fuel upgrades, while running 13g's @ 15 psi, I was also
> getting 950C+ EGT readings.  (I got off the throttle when I saw it hit 950,
> so I don't know how high it might have gotten).  I took this as a clear
> indicator that I needed a fuel upgrade.  To repeat something that has been
> said many times before;  not only did an injector upgrade drop my EGT's to a
> consistant 900C but it also was one of the single biggest performance
> improvements I made.  If you want to run more boost, IMO, you wont get the
> HP until you upgrade the fuel.
>
> Regards,
> Dave T
>
> __________________________________________
> NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
> Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
> http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm




For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 00:16:51 -0600
From: "Trevor L. James" <trevor@kscable.com>
Subject: Team3S: Which wires are which, post-cat O2 sensors...

Gutted my pre-cats tonight and installed a pair of casper electronics O2 sensor
simulators. They're supposed to kick out the correct voltage to make the computer think
that the pre-cats are still there. Here are the wires that they wanted and what color
wire from the O2 harness I spliced into it.
O2 Signal Wire-I used white because the front/upper signal wire was the white one
+12V Heater Wire-I used blue because the other two are black
Sensor Ground-Black
Chassis Ground-Black
Well after splicing them together I get a check engine light. These aren't guaranteed to
work on our cars. As far as I know I'm the first one to try them. They're designed for
OBD II F-bodies and Vettes (and I've heard of good experiences with them). Do I have my
wires mixed up? Anybody know which black wire is the "chassis ground" and which is the
"sensor ground"? Is there a difference? When I get up in the morning I'll start probing
with the multimeter but it would help my troubleshooting if you guys have any ideas...

Trevor
96 R/T TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:31:24 +0100
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?= <vr4@bahnhof.se>
Subject: Team3S: Transfercase oil

Aaarghhh!!!. I forgot my Manual at home, can someone please please please
post how much oil I have to buy for my transfercase, It's a 93 VR-4. I will
go with Redline shockproof heavy once again, Last time I used Redline my
transfer case locked up after two weeks but I'm 100% sure it wasn't Redlines
fault.

Thanks,

Mikael Akesson http://www.3000gt.nu


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:52:39 +0100
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?= <vr4@bahnhof.se>
Subject: Team3S: Race wing

Hi,

This is something special for all track drivers!!!

I work together with a company in Sweden on designing a true race wing for
the 3S cars. The company I work with are specialized in wings for race cars,
the wings they make are 100% performance, this is not styling equipment.
However if you like the race look then they are 100% style! The wing plane
is made out of high grade alu, black anodized is standard but it can be
polished or painted.

All wings are adjustable and are available with one or two decks. Our goal
is to use the existing active aero components so the wing are adjustable
from inside the car and the look will be something like the 99 VR-4 wing but
more "race". This wing really do work and are used on real race cars like
BTCC and Rally cross etc. It will produce more than 100kg downforce (We will
do more precise calculations later) at normal track speed.

I would like to hear input and ideas from you guys and I also want to know
how many of you are interested in a wing like this. (Estimated price=700$)
E-Mail me PRIVATELY if you just want to say that you are interested.

I have posted a few pics of prototypes that have been made for other cars
(note the corrado that also have active aero) http://www.3000gt.nu/wings.htm
(Ford will show them on their Focus Cosworth at the L.A car show in Januari)

Best regards,

Mikael Akesson http://www.3000gt.nu



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 06:49:24 -0800
From: "Darcy" <w.c.e@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Transfercase oil

Hey Mikael;

My 92 manual quotes 0.27dm2  or 0.29qt in US measurements. Don't remember
what year yours is or if different years take different amounts?

Best

Darc
- -----Original Message-----
From: Mikael Åkesson <vr4@bahnhof.se>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 5:30 AM
Subject: Team3S: Transfercase oil


>Aaarghhh!!!. I forgot my Manual at home, can someone please please please
>post how much oil I have to buy for my transfercase, It's a 93 VR-4. I will
>go with Redline shockproof heavy once again, Last time I used Redline my
>transfer case locked up after two weeks but I'm 100% sure it wasn't
Redlines
>fault.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mikael Akesson http://www.3000gt.nu
>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 07:40:24 -0800
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Downforce

Boris...

I believe Veilside is known for their cosmetic body kits. I checked out the
web address you posted and saw no claims for improved downforce from the
rear spoilers listed. For that matter, I didn't see any claims for improved
performance from any of their body kits. Do have access to some data you can
share?

BTW...just for the record, appearance and performance do not (necessarily)
go hand in hand. Even Mitsubishi, who "should" (IMO) be making changes to
improve performance changed the 3KGT rear wing in 1998 to the "popular"
grocery cart style and ending up decreasing the downforce produced.
Apparently they thought the appearance was more important than
functionality.

Looking forward...Chris

- -----Original Message-----
From: smii [mailto:smii@mediaone.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 5:20 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Downforce


Hello everybody,

I just figured that if anyone on the list is interested in increasing
downforce to the rear of your car, Veilside has just opened their U.S.
website that shows a rear carbon fiber adjustable spoiler for our cars.

www.veilsideusa.com

Anyway, just some info that could prove valuable at the track.

Boris
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:28:05 -0500
From: Rick <rick@ceo-consulting.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: EGT's

At 06:34 PM 12/21/99 -0500, Becky and Dave wrote:
>Prior to making fuel upgrades, while running 13g's @ 15 psi, I was also
>getting 950C+ EGT readings.  (I got off the throttle when I saw it hit 950,
>so I don't know how high it might have gotten).  I took this as a clear
>indicator that I needed a fuel upgrade.  To repeat something that has been
>said many times before;  not only did an injector upgrade drop my EGT's to a
>consistant 900C but it also was one of the single biggest performance
>improvements I made.  If you want to run more boost, IMO, you wont get the
>HP until you upgrade the fuel.
>
>Regards,
>Dave T
=======================================

I agree with Dave 100%.  As soon as I installed the 550cc injectors, the
car stopped sputtering, coughing, etc.. at 15psi.  I did not have an EGT
gauge like he did, so I have no idea what my temps were, but I am sure they
must have been quite high (not good)

With the new injectors, the car not only stopped all that coughing,
sputtering, etc, at high boost, but it also pulls *WAY* harder.  I have not
taken it to the track yet (clutch now slips in fourth on the highway with
the new power!) but when I do I will be sure to post the times.

Regards,

Rick




For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:51:12 -0500
From: "John T. Christian" <jczoom@geocities.com>
Subject: Team3S: Track exhaust

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- --------------8D3F9A099A707E23640F93BA
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Rich,

See you are getting a new exhaust.  Here is URL for a picture of my
TRACK Exhaust.  It weighs about 17 #.  I run it on the street from the
start to end of racing season.  If you keep your foot out of the gas,
its not very loud.  Never been stopped.  The local autocross clubs and
the road courses don't complain.  But, I can't run the quiet time
session on Sunday at Road Atlanta---the Black flag comes out for me.

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Flats/4538/pana_ex2.jpg

The stock exhaust weighs 84 #.  The muffler section alone weighs about
42#.   So there is a weight savings by getting rid of the stock parts
too. 

The downpipe keeps on cracking cause there is NO braided flex section.
I'm considering building a Stainless downpipe with a flex section that
can bolt onto the stock CAT or onto the rest of the track system. 
Since the stock section from the CAT back to the mufflers is 3", I could
then just build a pipe to eliminate the stock mufflers. 

\      |               |--------|
\-----|-------==flex==|  CAT   |------stock --------------|..pipe....
     downpipe          |--------|

That way I wouldn't have to keep putting the stock system back on in
November for PA State Inspection.  BTW the TT passes even without the
benefit of the pre-CATS.

Be of good cheer
John

- --
JCZoooM  93 TT 12.46@109Mph   Now with Porsche brakes & Supra rotors
Email---> JCZooM@iname.com 
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538
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- --------------8D3F9A099A707E23640F93BA--

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:28:46 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: tire pressure and premium sound system

> I've just got myself a new set of firestone firehawk sz-50s. just
> curious as to what is the optimal tire pressure setting for the front
> and rear of our cars for street driving, and for track racing.

My recent trip to the track for a high performance driving clinic with SZ 50's
in 275/40/17 on my stock rimed '91 VR4 yielded about 38 psi front and 34 psi
rear hot temperatures (pressure checked after 10 minutes of cool down though).
Above that they were way too loose.  After the first session, I checked
pressures and they were 46/42.  I lowered about 4 psi for the 2nd, and 4 psi
again for the third sessions.  The third session felt better, and the wear
rolled over on the edge of the tread about the right amount (see Jeff's post).

- --
If you're not the lead car, your view never changes!

Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:33:06 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Wiring for gauge illumination....

> I'm putting Autometer EGT and A/F Ratio gauges in right now and I can't quite
> remember how to wire up the lighting. Does the dimmer rheostat panel just pop
> out? 

Yes.

> I seem to remember that the dimmer just varies the ground...am I right?
> If so how do I wire up the light. One wire to 12V solid when the lights are on
> and one wire to the rheostat?

Just put a volt meter on the dimmer rheostat wires with the dash lights on
bright, then on dim.  You should be able to find a pair of wires that measures
higher voltage on bright and lower voltage on dim.  Just wire up to them.

- --
If you're not the lead car, your view never changes!

Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:07:39 -0600
From: "Trevor Jones" <trevor_jones@lacrosse-net.com>
Subject: Team3S: Apex AVC-R tuning and Stock Turbo Boost Curves

Got the Apex AVC-R in(thanks again Minn 3/s).  Now I'm working on tuning
using the Apex's RPM based boost setting.  My questions are as follow(I
realize that I could figure out some of these questions by using the Apex's
graphing mode and doing tests, but if anyone has the info for comparison and
to save some of the work, it would be much appreciated!=)

Can the stock turbos maintain 14psi?
At what rpm point are the stock turbos able to reach 14-15psi?
If the stock turbos do maintain 14psi, my boost curve should look like a
steady climb "/" and then plateau...right?
If it is not the case that stock turbos can maintain 14-15psi, what rpm
point is it best to have them peak at? (in correlation with 1/4 mile drag
racing)

thanks all,
tj
93' 3k VR4
Apex AVC-R
K+N FIPK
2nd Getrag Tranny

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:29:42 -0500
From: "Wallis, Gavin" <WallisG@MWAA.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Apex AVC-R tuning and Stock Turbo Boost Curves

Hmm...something in your train of thought seems odd to me...anyways, here's
what I know.

Stock turbos can hit well over 14psi, however then can certainly not hold
that to the redline. I'm going to COMPLETELY guess using my general
knowledge and say once your at 6500ish RPM your stock turbos are maybe
pushing about 6-9psi. In the 3000-5000rpm range your stock 9bs can produce a
bunch of boost, probably up to around 18-20. Why I am telling this to you
though? Your the one with the the AVC-R :), and I HOPE a quality boost gauge
mounted in plain view.

What I am not certain of is how high a boost you can run at these lower rpms
w/out knock. 14.5psi across the board is the safe peak level but I was under
the suspicion if your able to tune different RPM bands (a feature that you
do have on a new AVC-R) you may be able to ask for more boost at lower RPMs.
Also keep in mind that anything much above 14psi is putting the 9b turbos
out of their efficiency island, meaning hotter EGTs usually (do you have an
EGT?). Although probably not an issue for drag racing, but I would
definitely recommend a EGT gauge, small price to pay up front for preventing
what could happen.

You ask the question, what should you have the turbos peak at. Not sure what
you mean...the turbos peak themselves by design, each turbo can only flow so
much. The question should be how much fuel can you supply for the turbos to
reach their peak. I don't believe you can ever let the stock turbos
naturally "peak" on a stock fuel setup. They would peak probably around
18-20 like I said, which would be very dangerous. Perhaps you meant more
like my paragraph before this one, "what is the highest boost you can run
and in which RPM band?" As far as "correlation to drag racing", I guess you
mean how much can I run in a short burst, or as some boost controllers call
it "scramble". Beats me and probably most people, I wouldn't recommend going
much above 14.5psi period w/out upgrading your fuel system. Yeah you may be
able to squeeze 1 or more tenths off your 1/4 but is that really worth
hurting or blowing your engine? 14.5 is what I've come to know as the
"standard" for a safe, no fuel mods, boost level for our V6s.

Lastly, each engine will be different, you really need to use your AVC-R and
analyze the data it gives you. Then you will know exactly what to do. Give
us some measurements.

Happy Holidays,
G


- --> -----Original Message-----
- --> From: Trevor Jones [mailto:trevor_jones@lacrosse-net.com]
- --> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 1:08 PM
- --> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
- --> Subject: Team3S: Apex AVC-R tuning and Stock Turbo Boost Curves
- -->
- -->
- --> Got the Apex AVC-R in(thanks again Minn 3/s).  Now I'm
- --> working on tuning
- --> using the Apex's RPM based boost setting.  My questions are
- --> as follow(I
- --> realize that I could figure out some of these questions by
- --> using the Apex's
- --> graphing mode and doing tests, but if anyone has the info
- --> for comparison and
- --> to save some of the work, it would be much appreciated!=)
- -->
- --> Can the stock turbos maintain 14psi?
- --> At what rpm point are the stock turbos able to reach 14-15psi?
- --> If the stock turbos do maintain 14psi, my boost curve
- --> should look like a
- --> steady climb "/" and then plateau...right?
- --> If it is not the case that stock turbos can maintain
- --> 14-15psi, what rpm
- --> point is it best to have them peak at? (in correlation with
- --> 1/4 mile drag
- --> racing)
- -->
- --> thanks all,
- --> tj
- --> 93' 3k VR4
- --> Apex AVC-R
- --> K+N FIPK
- --> 2nd Getrag Tranny
- -->
- --> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:00:21 -0600
From: "Trevor Jones" <trevor_jones@lacrosse-net.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Apex AVC-R tuning and Stock Turbo Boost Curves

Sorry if my post wasn't clear.

Let me re-word somethings.  I plan on only running 14-14.5 psi max with my
stock fuel system.  So at the 14-14.5 psi will the stock turbos maintain
that boost level from let's say 3,000rpm per Gavin's comment(In the
3000-5000rpm range your stock 9bs can produce a
bunch of boost, probably up to around 18-20) to 6500 rpm?  Apparently not,
because they can only push 6-9psi at higher rpm levels.  This has answered
my first couple of questions.  So in reality until I get bigger turbos,
water injection, etc.,  setting the boost at 14.5 psi across the entire rpm
range seems like it would net the most performance(without safety risk to
the engine), even though the turbos will not be able to sustain 14.5 psi to
redline, and at lower rpm's the turbos will reach 14.5 psi as quickly as
they can(yes one of the advantages of the rpm based boosting would be
increasing the boost above 14.5 psi at lower rpm levels, and after i get my
data logger i will start testing this to see if higher boost levels in the
3,000-5,000 rpm levels causes knock, and or a lean condition).  My next
question is, why do the turbos actually produce less boost at higher rpm's.
Being driven by exhaust gas would lead me to believe that at higher rpm's
the speed at which exhaust gas leaves the head would be faster hence the
turbos spinning faster and producing as much, if not more boost??  Am I
missing something here?  Higher rpm's means more heat so I can understand
the added danger of higher boost at higher rpm for sustained periods.  My
next step sounds like trying to use the graphing feature of the Apex unit to
see how quickly(at what rpm) the stock turbos generate a full 14.5psi(just
out of curiosity), and where they start dropping off.  I was just hoping
that someone had this info, but I guess it's up to me =)  Now if the apex
only had a feature that allowed the user to capture the graph for an
extended period of time for replay purposes.  Apex are you listening???  By
the way can the data logger capture boost levels at specified rpm points or
in some type of graph(i haven't received mine yet)?

thanks,
tj
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Wallis, Gavin
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 12:30 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Apex AVC-R tuning and Stock Turbo Boost Curves


Hmm...something in your train of thought seems odd to me...anyways, here's
what I know.

Stock turbos can hit well over 14psi, however then can certainly not hold
that to the redline. I'm going to COMPLETELY guess using my general
knowledge and say once your at 6500ish RPM your stock turbos are maybe
pushing about 6-9psi. In the 3000-5000rpm range your stock 9bs can produce a
bunch of boost, probably up to around 18-20. Why I am telling this to you
though? Your the one with the the AVC-R :), and I HOPE a quality boost gauge
mounted in plain view.

What I am not certain of is how high a boost you can run at these lower rpms
w/out knock. 14.5psi across the board is the safe peak level but I was under
the suspicion if your able to tune different RPM bands (a feature that you
do have on a new AVC-R) you may be able to ask for more boost at lower RPMs.
Also keep in mind that anything much above 14psi is putting the 9b turbos
out of their efficiency island, meaning hotter EGTs usually (do you have an
EGT?). Although probably not an issue for drag racing, but I would
definitely recommend a EGT gauge, small price to pay up front for preventing
what could happen.

You ask the question, what should you have the turbos peak at. Not sure what
you mean...the turbos peak themselves by design, each turbo can only flow so
much. The question should be how much fuel can you supply for the turbos to
reach their peak. I don't believe you can ever let the stock turbos
naturally "peak" on a stock fuel setup. They would peak probably around
18-20 like I said, which would be very dangerous. Perhaps you meant more
like my paragraph before this one, "what is the highest boost you can run
and in which RPM band?" As far as "correlation to drag racing", I guess you
mean how much can I run in a short burst, or as some boost controllers call
it "scramble". Beats me and probably most people, I wouldn't recommend going
much above 14.5psi period w/out upgrading your fuel system. Yeah you may be
able to squeeze 1 or more tenths off your 1/4 but is that really worth
hurting or blowing your engine? 14.5 is what I've come to know as the
"standard" for a safe, no fuel mods, boost level for our V6s.

Lastly, each engine will be different, you really need to use your AVC-R and
analyze the data it gives you. Then you will know exactly what to do. Give
us some measurements.

Happy Holidays,
G
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:02:14 -0600
From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Apex AVC-R tuning and Stock Turbo Boost Curves

Hey, Trevor,
Glad to see your getting some use of the AVC-R.  I trust your drive
home was safe.  :-)

To answer your question about boost at high RPM, you need to realize
that the turbo design itself, will allow for only so much airflow.  At 7k
RPM you are right, the turbo will spin faster.  But you need to remember
that the engine is also consuming more air, and the casing design and
impeller design of the turbo only allow it to produce a finite amount of
airflow, no matter how fast the engine spins.  We'll discuss it at the next
MN3S gathering!  :-)  [when we install your water injection, hint hint.  :-)
]

John Basol
'95 RT/TT


-----Original Message-----
From: Trevor Jones [SMTP:trevor_jones@lacrosse-net.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 2:00 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Apex AVC-R tuning and Stock Turbo Boost
Curves

Sorry if my post wasn't clear.

Let me re-word somethings.  I plan on only running 14-14.5 psi max
with my
stock fuel system.  So at the 14-14.5 psi will the stock turbos
maintain
that boost level from let's say 3,000rpm per Gavin's comment(In the
3000-5000rpm range your stock 9bs can produce a
bunch of boost, probably up to around 18-20) to 6500 rpm?
Apparently not,
because they can only push 6-9psi at higher rpm levels.  This has
answered
my first couple of questions.  So in reality until I get bigger
turbos,
water injection, etc.,  setting the boost at 14.5 psi across the
entire rpm
range seems like it would net the most performance(without safety
risk to
the engine), even though the turbos will not be able to sustain 14.5
psi to
redline, and at lower rpm's the turbos will reach 14.5 psi as
quickly as
they can(yes one of the advantages of the rpm based boosting would
be
increasing the boost above 14.5 psi at lower rpm levels, and after i
get my
data logger i will start testing this to see if higher boost levels
in the
3,000-5,000 rpm levels causes knock, and or a lean condition).  My
next
question is, why do the turbos actually produce less boost at higher
rpm's.
Being driven by exhaust gas would lead me to believe that at higher
rpm's
the speed at which exhaust gas leaves the head would be faster hence
the
turbos spinning faster and producing as much, if not more boost??
Am I
missing something here?  Higher rpm's means more heat so I can
understand
the added danger of higher boost at higher rpm for sustained
periods.  My
next step sounds like trying to use the graphing feature of the Apex
unit to
see how quickly(at what rpm) the stock turbos generate a full
14.5psi(just
out of curiosity), and where they start dropping off.  I was just
hoping
that someone had this info, but I guess it's up to me =)  Now if the
apex
only had a feature that allowed the user to capture the graph for an
extended period of time for replay purposes.  Apex are you
listening???  By
the way can the data logger capture boost levels at specified rpm
points or
in some type of graph(i haven't received mine yet)?

thanks,
tj
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Wallis,
Gavin
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 12:30 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Apex AVC-R tuning and Stock Turbo Boost Curves


Hmm...something in your train of thought seems odd to me...anyways,
here's
what I know.

Stock turbos can hit well over 14psi, however then can certainly not
hold
that to the redline. I'm going to COMPLETELY guess using my general
knowledge and say once your at 6500ish RPM your stock turbos are
maybe
pushing about 6-9psi. In the 3000-5000rpm range your stock 9bs can
produce a
bunch of boost, probably up to around 18-20. Why I am telling this
to you
though? Your the one with the the AVC-R :), and I HOPE a quality
boost gauge
mounted in plain view.

What I am not certain of is how high a boost you can run at these
lower rpms
w/out knock. 14.5psi across the board is the safe peak level but I
was under
the suspicion if your able to tune different RPM bands (a feature
that you
do have on a new AVC-R) you may be able to ask for more boost at
lower RPMs.
Also keep in mind that anything much above 14psi is putting the 9b
turbos
out of their efficiency island, meaning hotter EGTs usually (do you
have an
EGT?). Although probably not an issue for drag racing, but I would
definitely recommend a EGT gauge, small price to pay up front for
preventing
what could happen.

You ask the question, what should you have the turbos peak at. Not
sure what
you mean...the turbos peak themselves by design, each turbo can only
flow so
much. The question should be how much fuel can you supply for the
turbos to
reach their peak. I don't believe you can ever let the stock turbos
naturally "peak" on a stock fuel setup. They would peak probably
around
18-20 like I said, which would be very dangerous. Perhaps you meant
more
like my paragraph before this one, "what is the highest boost you
can run
and in which RPM band?" As far as "correlation to drag racing", I
guess you
mean how much can I run in a short burst, or as some boost
controllers call
it "scramble". Beats me and probably most people, I wouldn't
recommend going
much above 14.5psi period w/out upgrading your fuel system. Yeah you
may be
able to squeeze 1 or more tenths off your 1/4 but is that really
worth
hurting or blowing your engine? 14.5 is what I've come to know as
the
"standard" for a safe, no fuel mods, boost level for our V6s.

Lastly, each engine will be different, you really need to use your
AVC-R and
analyze the data it gives you. Then you will know exactly what to
do. Give
us some measurements.

Happy Holidays,
G
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:45:22 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Apex AVC-R tuning and Stock Turbo Boost Curves

Trevor Jones wrote:
snip
> My next
> question is, why do the turbos actually produce less boost at higher rpm's.

Because the engine is consuming more air than the little turbos can provide,
regardless of the speed the impellars are turning.

snip
> My
> next step sounds like trying to use the graphing feature of the Apex unit to
> see how quickly(at what rpm) the stock turbos generate a full 14.5psi(just
> out of curiosity), and where they start dropping off.  I was just hoping
> that someone had this info, but I guess it's up to me =) 

This will vary with exhaust mods, but typically in 3rd gear accelerations, 14.5
psi can be achieved about 2800-3000 RPM.  It is usually a little later in 2nd
gear, about 3200 or so.

> Now if the apex
> only had a feature that allowed the user to capture the graph for an
> extended period of time for replay purposes.  Apex are you listening??? 

You can record up to 60 seconds for one parameter, 30 seconds for 2 parameters,
20 seconds for 3, and 15 seconds for 4.  When using the "Rev Y" graph, use the
"ghost" mode all so points stay lit until reset.

While Apexi's graphing capability is very useful for looking at the quality of
the curves, they can't be used to determine exact values due to the resolution
of the graphs.  Instead use the digital readouts with peak hold to get peak
values.
- --
If you're not the lead car, your view never changes!

Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:13:18 CST
From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Apex AVC-R tuning and Stock Turbo Boost Curves

Exactly, thanks John!!  I guess a easier way to look at it....  The area
between the turbos and the engine is where it is pressurized.  As the engine
sucks in more air,(RPMs going higher) the turbos spin faster and faster. 
When you get close to 6,000rpm the engine is actually sucking in more air
than the turbos can produce and that is why your pressure is decreasing.  If
you buy bigger turbos, the fin design will be more aggressive and this
situation won't occur.

Trevor, when your ready for it, John and I will install Water Injection. 
Then you can really see the turbos drop from 18psi at 4,000 rpm to 11psi at
7,000rpm.  ;)  But first you should regap your plugs to ~.034 and install a
analog boost gauge on your a-pillar.

later,
Curt
http://www.mn3s.org



>From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@carlson.com>
>To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>Subject: RE: Team3S: Apex AVC-R tuning and Stock Turbo Boost Curves
>Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:02:14 -0600
>
>Hey, Trevor,
> Glad to see your getting some use of the AVC-R.  I trust your drive
>home was safe.  :-)
>
> To answer your question about boost at high RPM, you need to realize
>that the turbo design itself, will allow for only so much airflow.  At 7k
>RPM you are right, the turbo will spin faster.  But you need to remember
>that the engine is also consuming more air, and the casing design and
>impeller design of the turbo only allow it to produce a finite amount of
>airflow, no matter how fast the engine spins.  We'll discuss it at the next
>MN3S gathering!  :-)  [when we install your water injection, hint hint. 
>:-)
>]
>
>John Basol
>'95 RT/TT
>

______________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:18:14 -0600
From: "Bill Davis" <wjdavis@inlink.com>
Subject: Team3S: Fw: Anti lock

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01BF4D3F.C98B6F20
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


- ----- Original Message -----=20
From: Bill Davis=20
To: stealth@starnet.net=20
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 1999 12:15 PM
Subject: Anti lock


My anti-lock brake light is staying on, and I can hear,
I assume the pump running after I shut the car off.
Any body have any ideas.

Bill Davis 95 VR-4

- ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01BF4D3F.C98B6F20
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:wjdavis@inlink.com" title=3Dwjdavis@inlink.com>Bill =
Davis</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A href=3D"mailto:stealth@starnet.net"=20
title=3Dstealth@starnet.net>stealth@starnet.net</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 23, 1999 12:15 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Anti lock</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My anti-lock brake light is staying on, =
and I can=20
hear,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I assume the pump running after I shut =
the car=20
off.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Any body have any ideas.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bill Davis 95 =
VR-4</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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