--

From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com (Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S Digest V1 #359
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Errors-To: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Precedence: bulk


Team3S Digest       Thursday, December 16 1999       Volume 01 : Number 359




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 01:35:55 -0800
From: Errin Humphrey <errin@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Team3S: What's that exhaust again?

Kevin wrote:

>  > 1.  Is the pipe from the main cat back a 3-in. pipe?
> Yes on non california models.  European and CA cars had a different system
> with 2 3/4" pipe and a resonator. (according to Roger)

Thanks for the heads up!

Correction to my last post:  I mentioned that post-cat piping is
2.75", but I forgot to mention that my car is a CA version.

- --Errin Humphrey
Seattle, WA

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:06:43 CST
From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: What's that exhaust again?

I'd be very surprised if the exhaust system on CA cars is any different then
the rest.  I've worked on both OBD I and OBD II downpipes and cats and they
are the same diameter.  The only difference being the extra two O2 sensors
on the OBD II.  I know that Buscher sells a test pipe for our cars and it
fits all years.  If the diameter of the exhaust was different, I would think
the same test pipe wouldn't fit if the exhausts were different.  My Stealth
is a non-CA car and it has 2 3/4 inch exhaust.

later,
Curt
Join us at the Upper Midwest Gathering in May.  Check out
http://www.mn3s.org/upper-midwest.html for details.


>From: Errin Humphrey <errin@u.washington.edu>
>To: 3/S Sirius Mailing List <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Subject: Re: Team3S: What's that exhaust again?
>Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 01:35:55 -0800
>
>Kevin wrote:
>
> >  > 1.  Is the pipe from the main cat back a 3-in. pipe?
> > Yes on non california models.  European and CA cars had a different
>system
> > with 2 3/4" pipe and a resonator. (according to Roger)
>
>Thanks for the heads up!
>
>Correction to my last post:  I mentioned that post-cat piping is
>2.75", but I forgot to mention that my car is a CA version.
>
>--Errin Humphrey
>Seattle, WA
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 15:56:41 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: What's that exhaust again?

> I'd be very surprised if the exhaust system on CA cars is any different then
> the rest.  I've worked on both OBD I and OBD II downpipes and cats and they
> are the same diameter.

We are not speaking about the front at stuff. The cat back on my EU car is smaller than 3" on the inner side. This is why the ATR cat and pipe came with a restriction down to the 2 1/2" piping. Also there is a small resonator in the piping before the diff. Just have a look at the manuals.

Roger
93'3000GT TT
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 06:56:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: What's that exhaust again?

>> My concern with this approach is weight. When I
>> pulled my stock exhaust, it was VERY heavy (I wish
>> I had weighed it before it hit the scrap heap).

Here are approximate weights (in pounds) of the stock
exhaust system compared to the ATR system for my 1992
Stealth TT (non-CA car). I used a bathroom scale.
Brackets are not included.
                        stock     ATR
Downpipe                  15       10
Main cat                  15        5 (test pipe 2#)
Exhaust from cat back     54       56

Stock from cat back was weighed as one piece (as
removed). ATR pieces were weighed individually.

Jeff Lucius 1992 Stealth TT


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Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:04:45 -0800
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: What's that exhaust again?

Folks...

Roger makes a good point. We should specify whether we're referring to ID
(Inside Diameter) or OD (Outside Diameter). I've been referring to ID in my
posts. However, I have never taken a set of calipers to the ID (or OD, which
wouldn't matter too much to me).

I was speaking of my dealings with ATR, where they say they provide a
reduction from 3" to 2.5" in order to mate to the stock catback system.
Since I already had a 3" catback exhaust, I had to have the reduction
section removed and a 3" flange welded on.

Looking forward...Chris

- -----Original Message-----
From: R.G. [mailto:robby@freesurf.ch]
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 6:57 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: What's that exhaust again?

> I'd be very surprised if the exhaust system on CA cars is any different
then
> the rest.  I've worked on both OBD I and OBD II downpipes and cats and
they
> are the same diameter.

We are not speaking about the front at stuff. The cat back on my EU car is
smaller than 3" on the inner side. This is why the ATR cat and pipe came
with a restriction down to the 2 1/2" piping. Also there is a small
resonator in the piping before the diff. Just have a look at the manuals.

Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:33:58 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: What's that exhaust again?

Even more, the Borla cat-back comes with a reduction flange from 3" to 2 1/2" (inside) that bolts onto the stock cat. My system looks really ugly now with the reduction from the cat to the flange and then another one that goes back to 3".

The Borla cat back is damn light and I tell you my car was higher in the rear after the installation (SUV look !) I currently run the stock system due to the last gov test I've done and had no time to change it back. I'll do it in spring and will them measure the Borla weight (or when I ever clean up my garage, hehe)

Roger
93'3000GT TT

> I was speaking of my dealings with ATR, where they say they provide a
> reduction from 3" to 2.5" in order to mate to the stock catback system.
> Since I already had a 3" catback exhaust, I had to have the reduction
> section removed and a 3" flange welded on.

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:56:34 -0600
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: This is exhausting!

I am beginning to get the picture here.

Based on what everyone SEEMS to be saying, the stock catback pipe is 2-3/4
in. OD (2.5 in. ID) while aftermarket performance add-ons, such as the ATR
downpipe, are 3 in. OD.

As Chris Winkley points out, if you put an ATR downpipe on, it comes with a
sleeve to neck down to the stock size.

So, if one planned to upgrade from the downpipe all the way back, then it
would be best to make the Y-connection at the rear end a 3 incher (3 in.
inlet, two 2-1/2 in. outlets), so it would be able to accommodate future
updates to an all 3 in. system. In the meantime, a simple sleeve would let
it fit the stock 2-3/4 in. pipe from the cat back.

Thanks, guys.

Rich/old poop
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:22:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: What's that exhaust again?

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: What's that exhaust again?

> Folks...
>
> Roger makes a good point. We should specify whether
> we're referring to ID (Inside Diameter) or OD
>(Outside Diameter). I've been referring to ID in my
> posts. However, I have never taken a set of calipers
> to the ID .... snip

Hmmm, well I have mic'd the ATR exhaust and some of
the stock exhaust for my 1992 Stealth TT (I haven't
cut up the old one yet to measure all IDs :) ). Here
are the nominal IDs in inches at the ends of the pipe.
I haven't measured all the ODs on the ATR to calculate
the IDs in the middles and bends of the pipes. The
last column is the percent increase in cross-sectional
area of the ATR pipe/opening over the stock ones.

                   stock         ATR        %increase
Downpipe inlets     1.95         2.3            39
Downpipe outlet     2.415        2.875          42
main cat            2.37-2.45    3.035         64-54
pipe after cat      2.45        
pipes after cat                  2.8-2.88      31-38

Jeff Lucius  1992 Stealth TT

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:59:01 -0500
From: "Kevin Schappell" <kevin@pacarsearch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: This is exhausting!

Rich,

I measured my stock pipe from the cat back with a caliper and it's slightly
over 3"  It's probably 80mm since it's a metric car.  If your car is not
from CA or Europe then it will be the same size as mine.  I don't see any
need to replace the pipe from the converter to the rear axle.  Just go with
your idea of the y-pipe and new mufflers.  If you want to check it out, cut
a 3" slot in a piece of cardboard and lay under the car and check it out.
You can get to the pipe very easy without jacking it up.


Kevin Schappell
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:41:03 -0600
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: This is exhausting!

Kevin Schappell says:
>I measured my stock pipe from the cat back with a caliper and it's slightly
>over 3"  It's probably 80mm since it's a metric car. 

Gee, I thought I had figured it out.
What's going on here? Why does everyone get different measurements for the
same pipes?

I guess I better be prepared for anything when we crawl under there.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:45:28 -0800
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: This is exhausting!

Rich...

Again, I'm pretty sure we're mixing numbers. Jeff sent a post with ID
(Inside Diameter) measurements, while it appears (to me, if he's using a set
of calipers from under the car) that Kevin is measuring OD (Outside
Diameter). We REALLY should specify our measurement terminology (ID, OD,
English, Metric, etc.).

Looking forward...Chris

- -----Original Message-----
From: Merritt [mailto:merritt@cedar-rapids.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 9:41 AM
To: Kevin Schappell; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: This is exhausting!

Kevin Schappell says:
>I measured my stock pipe from the cat back with a caliper and it's slightly
>over 3"  It's probably 80mm since it's a metric car. 

Gee, I thought I had figured it out.
What's going on here? Why does everyone get different measurements for the
same pipes?

I guess I better be prepared for anything when we crawl under there.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:59:24 -0800
From: Dan Jett <djett@corp.ultratech.com>
Subject: Team3S: Intake plenum/manifold questions...

** High Priority **

Hello, all...

I've posted this question elsewhere, (thanks for the input, Roger!),
but I figured there may be more information available...

I have a 94 Stealth TT, and I've recently aqquired a '99 VR4 intake
plenum and manifold. There are two extra ports, (one is MAP sensor
port, the other, well, your guess is as good as mine!). There are (I
think) two extra hose connections as well.
My dillemna is this: I wish to have the units portmatched, maybe
extrude honed, and polished, as an upgrade to my 94 mill...I'm not
sure how feasible it is to modify the intake plenum for gauging
pressure, or if I should  just have them filled. Roger brought up an
interesting point that the throttle body may not even fit the new
plenum. Has anyone had any experience with porting their
plenum/manifold?
I'm looking for information as to the functionality of these extra
ports...I'm not sure if anyone has a '99 shop manual, (certainly not
here in the bay area!), but I would really appreciate any ideas,
thoughts, or comments on this issue.
Also, has anyone here with honed intake systems noticed any
improvement over stock? Any quantifiable results?

Thanks in advance for the help!

Dan J
94 Stealth TT
Centerforce DF clutch
K/N FIPK
Greddy exhaust
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:15:29 -0500
From: "Kevin Schappell" <kevin@pacarsearch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: This is exhausting!

Either way the stock pipes are not 1/8" wall so if I say 3"OD or 3"ID there
is NO way you could confuse it with 2 1/2" pipe or even 2 3/4" I do not know
if the exhaust pipe is metric or standard, HKS lists their systems in MM
however.  I did measure the pipe with a caliper therefore the 3" measurement
I gave was OD.

Take care,

Kevin Schappell
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Winkley [mailto:cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 12:45 PM
> To: 'Merritt'
> Cc: Kevin Schappell; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: RE: Team3S: This is exhausting!
>
>
> Rich...
>
> Again, I'm pretty sure we're mixing numbers. Jeff sent a post with ID
> (Inside Diameter) measurements, while it appears (to me, if
> he's using a set
> of calipers from under the car) that Kevin is measuring OD (Outside
> Diameter). We REALLY should specify our measurement
> terminology (ID, OD,
> English, Metric, etc.).
>
> Looking forward...Chris
>


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:52:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: This is exhausting!

OK, I just cut through the exhaust pipe about 18
inches behind the main cat fitting. Micrometer
measurements are below. The exhaust pipe is necked
down to fit the cat (and in many other places!).

Stock 1992 Stealth TT exhaust pipe:
nominal OD:             2.97  (inches)
nominal ID:             2.84  (inches)
nominal wall thickness: 0.065 (inches)

Jeff Lucius 1992 Stealth TT

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Schappell <kevin@pacarsearch.com>
To: 'Chris Winkley' <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Cc: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 12:15 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: This is exhausting!

> Either way the stock pipes are not 1/8" wall so if I
> say 3"OD or 3"ID there is NO way you could confuse
> it with 2 1/2" pipe or even 2 3/4" I do not know
> if the exhaust pipe is metric or standard, HKS lists
> their systems in MM however.  I did measure the pipe
> with a caliper therefore the 3" measurement I gave
> was OD.
>
> Take care,
>
> Kevin Schappell


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Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:22:03 -0500
From: Rick D <rick@ceo-consulting.com>
Subject: Team3S: injectors and questions

Just a quick note to the collective...

I just installed the 550cc denso injectors this past weekend.  What a
difference.  Before (with the stock 360's) the car would sputter and seem
to have very little power above 5500rpms and anything over 14psi and the
car would just fall on its face...  also the lights on  my cyberdyne would
fall off after about 5300rpm, regardless of how high I turned up the AFC.

So, needless to say, I realized I needed the additional fuel.  However, I
never realized just how much of a difference the injectors would make. For
those of you debating purchasing the 550's all I can say is DO IT.  Here
are the current mods to my 94.

13g turbos - Brand New Mitsu units- Euro spec
Cartech (AMS) intercoolers
AMS hard pipe kit
Greddy Profec B boost controller
ATR downpipe
front pre-cat eliminated, rear pre-cat hogged out, main cat gone
HKS cat back exhaust (from test pipe to tailpipes)
AFC fuel controller
Denso 550cc injectors
G-Froce ECU upgrade
K&N FIPK
Spark plugs gapped at .034
Magnecore wires

Cyberdyne A/F gauge
SPI boost gauge - yellow (30psi max)

I also have the Cosmo 3 rotor RX7 fuel pump but am not really sure that I
want to install it... the reason I say this is because before I put the
550's in the car, I could only run a MAX boost of 14 or so.  Now with the
injectors I am running 18psi CONSTANT boost and the cyberdyne is sitting at
FULL RICH all the way to redline.  This is with the AFC knobs turned WAY
DOWN.  (to like -18% or so)

So, I guess my question for the pro's out there is:  Do you think I should
install the larger fuel pump even though it appears as though I do not need
it?  Keep in mind that this pump cost approx $400 (It is the HKS unit).  So
I do not want to waste the $400 if it is not totally necc.

I have not yet had a chance to hook up the DRB to the car to see if it is
picking up any knock, but like I said, the cyberdyne is sitting at full
rich @ 18psi boost (every light is lit under WOT) and I hear absolutely
zero knock.  (although I do understand that this does not necc mean that
there is NO knock)

The car is pulling so hard now with the 550 injectors that the clutch is
slipping (pretty bad) in third and fourth gear on a roll on I-95.  So,
needless to say, I am extremely happy with the performance, but was curious
as to what you guys thought about the fuel pump.  As far as I know the fuel
pump that is in it, is a stock 94 TT pump.  I bought the car used, but I
doubt the last owner (a Cardiologist) changed it out.

Thanks!

Rick
94 TT
6 speed





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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 15:46:38 -0600
From: "Trevor Jones" <trevor_jones@lacrosse-net.com>
Subject: Team3S: Need install and tuning tips, pics,etc. on APEX AVC-R

My name is TJ.  I'm new to the list and from the LaCrosse, WI area.  I own a
maroon 93 3kGT VR4.  Finally recieved my Apex AVC-R and was wondering if
anyone had install tips, pics, or tuning instructions.  If this is redundant
for the list please e-mail me directly.

Also, what would you guys recommend as my next upgrade?  Not really
concerned about cost, just the upgrade that will provide the most hp for my
buck.  Should aftermarket exhaust be next?

Thanks,
tj
1993 3kGT VR4
K+N FIPK
Apex AVC-R(to be installed soon)
On my 2nd Getrag Tranny

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 14:18:33 -0800
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Need install and tuning tips, pics,etc. on APEX AVC-R

Trevor (TJ)...

Welcome. Conventional mod staging would indicate intake and exhaust should
be next for you. The dyno results from our friends in Europe indicate the
fuel system (both injectors and pump) are the weak link, not just from a
performance perspective, but because running too lean will lead to
detonation...the engine killer.

Looking forward...Chris

- -----Original Message-----
From: Trevor Jones [mailto:trevor_jones@lacrosse-net.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 1:47 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Need install and tuning tips, pics,etc. on APEX AVC-R


My name is TJ.  I'm new to the list and from the LaCrosse, WI area.  I own a
maroon 93 3kGT VR4.  Finally recieved my Apex AVC-R and was wondering if
anyone had install tips, pics, or tuning instructions.  If this is redundant
for the list please e-mail me directly.

Also, what would you guys recommend as my next upgrade?  Not really
concerned about cost, just the upgrade that will provide the most hp for my
buck.  Should aftermarket exhaust be next?

Thanks,
tj
1993 3kGT VR4
K+N FIPK
Apex AVC-R(to be installed soon)
On my 2nd Getrag Tranny

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 00:32:11 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Team3S: Re: This is exhausting!

Yep, you got it !!!

Roger
93'3000GT TT

> I am beginning to get the picture here.
>
> Based on what everyone SEEMS to be saying, the stock catback pipe is 2-3/4
> in. OD (2.5 in. ID) while aftermarket performance add-ons, such as the ATR
> downpipe, are 3 in. OD.
>
> As Chris Winkley points out, if you put an ATR downpipe on, it comes with
a
> sleeve to neck down to the stock size.
>
> So, if one planned to upgrade from the downpipe all the way back, then it
> would be best to make the Y-connection at the rear end a 3 incher (3 in.
> inlet, two 2-1/2 in. outlets), so it would be able to accommodate future
> updates to an all 3 in. system. In the meantime, a simple sleeve would let
> it fit the stock 2-3/4 in. pipe from the cat back.


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 18:03:46 -0600
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: A little off topic, I suppose

OLYMPIA, Wash.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Dec. 15, 1999-- BigWigAuctions.com
(www.bigwigauctions.com), the luxury Internet auction site, today announced
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    "The McLaren F1 possesses a combination of speed and flexibility that
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Streisand in Las Vegas that benefited the Make-A-Wish(R) Foundation.

   
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:54:22 -0700
From: "Cory Eskelsen" <ceskelsen@email.msn.com>
Subject: Team3S: Nitrous; Induce or Reduce Knock?

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Would a 50 (or 75, 100, etc.) shot of nitrous induce or reduce the =
amount of knock on a TT? =20

Thanks,
Cory Eskelsen
96 R/T TT
#416

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<DIV><FONT face=3D"Century Gothic">Would a 50 (or 75, 100, etc.) shot of =
nitrous=20
induce or reduce the amount of knock on a TT?&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Century Gothic">Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Century Gothic">Cory Eskelsen</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Century Gothic">96 R/T TT</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Century Gothic">#416</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:09:43 -0600
From: "Owens, Trent L." <Trent.Owens@destia.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Nitrous; Induce or Reduce Knock?

Cory,
It will Definitely induce more knock due to the higher Oxygen content
present during combustion.  Adding more Oxygen will increase combustion
chamber temps, which in turn will increase knock.  The Nitrogen will act as
a buffer but its not much help..... 
An analogy would be a oxyacetylene Cutting torch.  The more oxygen you add,
to a certain amount of fuel, the higher the temperatures become.

I am no chemestry guru... So if anyone would like to correct me or add
too....  Please feel free!

However, a 50 shot of N2O would be beneficial from vacuum to about 5lbs of
boost coming off the line.  This will help the turbos spool quicker and
might introduce some important wheel spin.  If you do this you need to be
very careful!  Use it wrong.....  $$$$$$$$$!

Hope this helps.....

Trent

'95 RT TT
APEXi AVC-R  new style.
"Aggieland" College Station, TX




- -----Original Message-----
From: Cory Eskelsen [mailto:ceskelsen@email.msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 8:54 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Nitrous; Induce or Reduce Knock?


Would a 50 (or 75, 100, etc.) shot of nitrous induce or reduce the amount of
knock on a TT? 

Thanks,
Cory Eskelsen
96 R/T TT
#416

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:20:49 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Nitrous; Induce or Reduce Knock?

Although a lean condition (more oxygen) can increase knock or make a knock
problem worse, it is really the higher cylinder pressures that cause knock,
or rather, the relationship between cylinder pressure and the ability of the
charge to resist detonation. (octane rating of the fuel).

The presumption here, of course, is that anyone adding nitrous will also be
compensating for the increased fuel demand.  If they aren't doing that then
they have no business fooling around with nitrous oxide.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
>
> Cory,
> It will Definitely induce more knock due to the higher Oxygen content
> present during combustion.  Adding more Oxygen will increase combustion
> chamber temps, which in turn will increase knock.  The Nitrogen
> will act as
> a buffer but its not much help.....
> An analogy would be a oxyacetylene Cutting torch.  The more
> oxygen you add,
> to a certain amount of fuel, the higher the temperatures become.
>
> I am no chemestry guru... So if anyone would like to correct me or add
> too....  Please feel free!
>
> However, a 50 shot of N2O would be beneficial from vacuum to about 5lbs of
> boost coming off the line.  This will help the turbos spool quicker and
> might introduce some important wheel spin.  If you do this you need to be
> very careful!  Use it wrong.....  $$$$$$$$$!
>
> Hope this helps.....
>
> Trent
>
> '95 RT TT
> APEXi AVC-R  new style.
> "Aggieland" College Station, TX

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:28:45 EST
From: Klusmanp@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Will different wheel offset change handling?

Several of the aftermarket rims I'm looking at have an offset that puts the
wheel further outboard than stock. (for clearance on the brake calipers) In
one case the rim offset puts the tire centerline (i.e. contact patch) about
1/2" outboard of stock (OZ Italy Competition).

Anybody experience changes in handling from something like this?

In particluar, I would think that the amount of feedback into the steering
wheel would increase as you move the wheels outboard. The tire contact patch
is further away from the steering pivot point and has greater leverage for
applying force back into the steering mechanism.

Anybody know what the distance is from tire centerline to steering pivot
point?

If the distance is 10" then 1/2" isn't that big of a change. If the distance
is 2" then 1/2" is more significant.

Thanks!
Paul Klusman
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:35:20 -0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S: Kevlar vs Ceramic Clutches-JackT, RPS Reply

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This is going into the FAQ in a few days, but it's a recent thread so I =
thought I'd forward Rob Smith's (RPS) reply to the Team3S list...  =
First, the Q, and Jack T's Answer:

F
- ------------------

Q:>>>  What are the thermal/physical characteristics of KEVLAR vs.
CERAMIC clutches?  ...technical details; wear, high-temp stability,
glazing, holding power that each has over the other...?
=20
A:>>>  Kevlar stands up to heat well, supposedly better than
standard organic clutch material.  I think Kevlar has
a lower coefficient of friction than standard organics,
so can slip more with same pressure plate loading.
I have used Kevlar clutch disc with same pressure
plate on my 79 TA (10 second 3500 lb car with
slicks) and found the Kevlar version slipped, so had
to go back to regular organic disc.
=20
Ceramic puck clutches have very high heat capability,
high holding power, but have very harsh engagement
characteristics; they usually won't slip on a normal
street takeoff, but tend to grab/judder, so hard to take
off gracefully.  The on-off nature of ceramic type
clutch makes it have a high instant shock load which
imparts more stress to the driveline (transmission,
transfer case etc.) so could break parts more than an
organic or Kevlar unit which will smoothly slip while
building up torque transfer until lockup.
=20
RPS is hoping to utilize carbon fiber, which has very
high heat stability, and "adjustable" friction coefficients,
to build a clutch that allows higher holding power while
still slipping smoothly like a regular organic--thus their
"Carbon Claw" series, still in somewhat experimental
phase on learning curve.  The first RPS carbon clutches
for our cars slipped for some people (not me) due to defect; they
replaced disc for free--the replacement I got has carbon
on one side, organic with metal weave on the other;
I haven't yet had chance to try it.
=20
At least RPS is doing some
research into a better solution for us than saying "get the
ceramic puck trans/xfer case destroyer, tough luck buddy",
but the cost of this is some people having remove/replace
costs for RPS...some have even gotten paid for R&R
though.  I doubt most other companies would do that!
When I ran a Centerforce (with only mild mods) and it
slipped within 5000 mostly winter miles, Centerforce Co
told me to take a hike, no replacement or restitution at all...
=20
I'd prefer an organic, unless a strong enough holding
clutch was not available, then puck/ceramic is go-to
choice.
=20
There is supposedly an O S Giken clutch out of Japan
that uses multiple discs (2 or 3?) with plates, like many
circle track designs, to increase torque capacity.  I
think it may wear more quickly (more surfaces being
worn away, a 7.5" triple disc on my TA wore super
fast but that is an extreme example) and it costs ?$2000 or more?
I have wondered if it were actually manufactured by Tilton
or another USA manufacturer, but never searched out
the info...  ---Jack Tertadian
=20
RPS Comments:>>>  As far as we can tell there are only a very few =
manufacturing plants in the world that make clutch friction material. =
There are 2 main manufacturers of Ceramic pucks, and 2 manufacturers of =
Kevlar pucks and facings. All of the rest of the manufacturers in the =
world produce organic materials; some with asbestos and most without. =
RPS is the only clutch company producing a carbon fiber friction =
material. We do not produce carbon carbon like that used in Formula One. =
Carbon carbon is very different from carbon fiber, and  many times more =
expensive. Our friction material has 12 different ingredients. The =
advantage we have over any other clutch company (i.e. Centerforce, Hays, =
Ram, ACT, ClutchMasters, etc.) is since we actually manufacture the =
material ourselves we can change its characteristics at will. That is =
alot easier said than done, I can tell you, but at least we can make =
changes. We can also mold the material into any shape. A new product =
line we are looking into is Carbonite (our brand name for the carbon =
fiber material) pucks. This will allow use the flexibility to =
manufacture 3,4, and 6 puck discs in any size and with any spline.=20

Carbonite is very stable at high temperatures and has a very high =
coefficient of friction.  The newest version of carbonite also shows =
very good wear characteristics. One of the main advantages is its light =
weight. Carbonite is lighter than factory materials and significantly =
lighter than both kevlar and ceramics. This is important because the =
transmission's synchros are designed to slow down and speed up the main =
input shaft when there is an up-shift and a down-shift. The synchros =
were designed with the weight of the stock disc in mind. Any heavier =
material will add undue wear and tear on the synchros. So just imagine =
how happy the synchros are when the disc is lighter than stock!   ---Rob =
Smith, RPS
=20
=20
=20

=20

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3612.1706"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>This is going into the FAQ in a few days, but it's a recent thread =
so I=20
thought I'd forward Rob Smith's (RPS) reply to the Team3S list...&nbsp; =
First,=20
the Q, and Jack T's Answer:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>F</DIV>
<DIV>------------------</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Q:&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; What are the thermal/physical=20
characteristics of KEVLAR vs.<BR>CERAMIC clutches?&nbsp; ...technical =
details;=20
wear, high-temp stability,<BR>glazing, holding power that each has over =
the=20
other...?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>A:&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; Kevlar stands up to heat well, =
supposedly=20
better than<BR>standard organic clutch material.&nbsp; I think Kevlar =
has<BR>a=20
lower coefficient of friction than standard organics,<BR>so can slip =
more with=20
same pressure plate loading.<BR>I have used Kevlar clutch disc with same =

pressure<BR>plate on my 79 TA (10 second 3500 lb car with<BR>slicks) and =
found=20
the Kevlar version slipped, so had<BR>to go back to regular organic=20
disc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Ceramic puck clutches have very high heat =
capability,<BR>high=20
holding power, but have very harsh engagement<BR>characteristics; they =
usually=20
won't slip on a normal<BR>street takeoff, but tend to grab/judder, so =
hard to=20
take<BR>off gracefully.&nbsp; The on-off nature of ceramic =
type<BR>clutch makes=20
it have a high instant shock load which<BR>imparts more stress to the =
driveline=20
(transmission,<BR>transfer case etc.) so could break parts more than=20
an<BR>organic or Kevlar unit which will smoothly slip while<BR>building =
up=20
torque transfer until lockup.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>RPS is hoping to utilize carbon fiber, which has =
very<BR>high=20
heat stability, and &quot;adjustable&quot; friction coefficients,<BR>to =
build a=20
clutch that allows higher holding power while<BR>still slipping smoothly =
like a=20
regular organic--thus their<BR>&quot;Carbon Claw&quot; series, still in =
somewhat=20
experimental<BR>phase on learning curve.&nbsp; The first RPS carbon=20
clutches<BR>for our cars slipped for some people (not me) due to defect; =

they<BR>replaced disc for free--the replacement I got has carbon<BR>on =
one side,=20
organic with metal weave on the other;<BR>I haven't yet had chance to =
try=20
it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>At least RPS is doing some<BR>research into a better =
solution=20
for us than saying &quot;get the<BR>ceramic puck trans/xfer case =
destroyer,=20
tough luck buddy&quot;,<BR>but the cost of this is some people having=20
remove/replace<BR>costs for RPS...some have even gotten paid for=20
R&amp;R<BR>though.&nbsp; I doubt most other companies would do =
that!<BR>When I=20
ran a Centerforce (with only mild mods) and it<BR>slipped within 5000 =
mostly=20
winter miles, Centerforce Co<BR>told me to take a hike, no replacement =
or=20
restitution at all...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>I'd prefer an organic, unless a strong enough=20
holding<BR>clutch was not available, then puck/ceramic is=20
go-to<BR>choice.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>There is supposedly an O S Giken clutch out of =
Japan<BR>that=20
uses multiple discs (2 or 3?) with plates, like many<BR>circle track =
designs, to=20
increase torque capacity.&nbsp; I<BR>think it may wear more quickly =
(more=20
surfaces being<BR>worn away, a 7.5&quot; triple disc on my TA wore =
super<BR>fast=20
but that is an extreme example) and it costs ?$2000 or more?<BR>I have =
wondered=20
if it were actually manufactured by Tilton<BR>or another USA =
manufacturer, but=20
never searched out<BR>the info...&nbsp; ---Jack Tertadian</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>RPS Comments:&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp; As far as we can =
tell there=20
are only a very few manufacturing plants in the world that make clutch =
friction=20
material. There are 2 main manufacturers of Ceramic pucks, and 2 =
manufacturers=20
of Kevlar pucks and facings. All of the rest of the manufacturers in the =
world=20
produce organic materials; some with asbestos and most without. RPS is =
the only=20
clutch company producing a carbon fiber friction material. We do not =
produce=20
carbon carbon like that used in Formula One. Carbon carbon is very =
different=20
from carbon fiber, and&nbsp; many times more expensive. Our friction =
material=20
has 12 different ingredients. The advantage we have over any other =
clutch=20
company (i.e. Centerforce, Hays, Ram, ACT, ClutchMasters, etc.) is since =
we=20
actually manufacture the material ourselves we can change its =
characteristics at=20
will. That is alot easier said than done, I can tell you, but at least =
we can=20
make changes. We can also mold the material into any shape. A new =
product line=20
we are looking into is Carbonite (our brand name for the carbon fiber =
material)=20
pucks. This will allow use the flexibility to manufacture 3,4, and 6 =
puck discs=20
in any size and with any spline. <BR><BR>Carbonite is very stable at =
high=20
temperatures and has a very high coefficient of friction.&nbsp; The =
newest=20
version of carbonite also shows very good wear characteristics. One of =
the main=20
advantages is its light weight. Carbonite is lighter than factory =
materials and=20
significantly lighter than both kevlar and ceramics. This is important =
because=20
the transmission's synchros are designed to slow down and speed up the =
main=20
input shaft when there is an up-shift and a down-shift. The synchros =
were=20
designed with the weight of the stock disc in mind. Any heavier material =
will=20
add undue wear and tear on the synchros. So just imagine how happy the =
synchros=20
are when the disc is lighter than stock!&nbsp;&nbsp; ---Rob Smith,=20
RPS</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"" size=3D3><BR></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:53:39 -0800
From: "Mohler, Jeff" <jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Will different wheel offset change handling?

Changing the 'track' (width between centerline of tires) will affect handling.

If you widen front track, you will gain more oversteer.
If you widen rear traci, you will gain more understeer.

VERY small changes in track can make large differences.  I gained a HUGE amount
of control by widening my front track for SCCA purposes.

Mind you, if you widen track using spacers, you MUST MUST MUST get longer
wheel-studs.

:-----Original Message-----
:From: Klusmanp@aol.com [mailto:Klusmanp@aol.com]
:Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 7:29 PM
:To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
:Subject: Team3S: Will different wheel offset change handling?
:
:
:Several of the aftermarket rims I'm looking at have an offset
:that puts the
:wheel further outboard than stock. (for clearance on the brake
:calipers) In
:one case the rim offset puts the tire centerline (i.e. contact
:patch) about
:1/2" outboard of stock (OZ Italy Competition).
:
:Anybody experience changes in handling from something like this?
:
:In particluar, I would think that the amount of feedback into
:the steering
:wheel would increase as you move the wheels outboard. The tire
:contact patch
:is further away from the steering pivot point and has greater
:leverage for
:applying force back into the steering mechanism.
:
:Anybody know what the distance is from tire centerline to
:steering pivot
:point?
:
:If the distance is 10" then 1/2" isn't that big of a change.
:If the distance
:is 2" then 1/2" is more significant.
:
:Thanks!
:Paul Klusman
:For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
:http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
:
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 01:53:52 -0600
From: "Chris Chiasson" <cender@email.msn.com>
Subject: Team3S: Tires for raising top speeds...

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I am buying two new G-force tires for my 1991 RT/TT, but I had an idea =
for people with 2nd gens and the money for all new tires...

By decreasing the overall diameter of the wheel/tire, one effectively =
raises the gear ratios. In the (low?) 6th gear on the 2nd gen, our =
engines/transmission aren't maxxed out are they?=20

I know the force of the wind fully counters the force of the car, that =
is why it is at top speed, but I mean that the engine isn't redlined and =
the transmission can still accept the 6th gear spinning faster. This is =
why modded (higher HP) 3/Ss can reach higher speeds. If the gearing was =
made so 6th would redline the engine at top speed, the car wouldn't be =
able to reach a higher top speed unless the rev limiter were increased. =
Am I correct so far?

Anyway, if the gearing ratio were increased by changing the outer =
diameter of the wheel/tire combo ... say to 18" w/ 35 aspect ... the car =
should be able to go faster b/c the engine will have higher gearing =
multiplication, and still be able to rev high enough to keep up with the =
speed. Is there some kind of problem with the 3/S 2nd gen that would =
foil this thinking?=20

Will the stock engine with a smaller wheel/tire diameter hit the rev =
limiter before it exceedes the previous top speed (of normal wheel/tire =
diameter)?

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http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I am buying two new G-force tires for my 1991 RT/TT, =
but I had=20
an idea for people with 2nd gens and the money for all new =
tires...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>By decreasing the overall diameter of the =
wheel/tire,&nbsp;one=20
effectively raises the gear ratios. In&nbsp;the&nbsp;(low?) 6th gear on =
the 2nd=20
gen, our engines/transmission&nbsp;aren't maxxed out&nbsp;are they?=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I know the force of the wind fully counters the =
force of the=20
car, that is why it is at top speed, but I mean that the engine isn't =
redlined=20
and the transmission can still accept the 6th gear spinning faster. This =
is=20
why&nbsp;modded (higher HP) 3/Ss can reach higher speeds. If the gearing =
was=20
made so 6th would redline the engine at top speed, the car wouldn't be =
able to=20
reach a higher top speed unless the rev limiter were increased. Am I =
correct so=20
far?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Anyway, if the gearing ratio were increased by =
changing the=20
outer diameter of the wheel/tire combo ... say to 18" w/ 35 aspect ... =
the car=20
should be able to go faster b/c the engine will have higher gearing=20
multiplication, and still be able to rev high enough to keep up with the =
speed.=20
Is there some kind of problem with the 3/S 2nd gen that would foil this=20
thinking? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Will the stock engine with a smaller wheel/tire =
diameter hit=20
the rev limiter before it exceedes the previous top speed (of normal =
wheel/tire=20
diameter)?</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:14:19 -0600
From: Matt Jannusch <MAJ@BigCharts.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Tires for raising top speeds...

> Anyway, if the gearing ratio were increased by changing the outer
> diameter of the wheel/tire combo ... say to 18" w/ 35 aspect ...
> the car should be able to go faster b/c the engine will have higher
> gearing multiplication, and still be able to rev high enough to
> keep up with the speed. Is there some kind of problem with the 3/S
> 2nd gen that would foil this thinking?

The only thing that would foil the thinking is that you reduced the aspect ratio to 35.  You would want to increase tire radius by preserving (or raising) the aspect ratio to 45+.  If you go 18/35 with the same stock width, you didn't increase the radius of the tire.  To increase the effective gearing for top speed, you would want to go with something like 245/45-18, or if you are sticking with 17" wheels, you would go for 245/55-17 or 245/50-17.  All depends on what your top speed goal would be.

> Will the stock engine with a smaller wheel/tire diameter hit the
> rev limiter before it exceedes the previous top speed (of normal
> wheel/tire diameter)?

If you reduce the radius of the tires, then you have reduced the speed per RPM in a particular gear, yes.  Keep in mind that we are looking at the radius of the tire itself, not the diameter of the wheel.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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