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Team3S Digest V1 #349
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Team3S Digest
Friday, December 3 1999 Volume
01 : Number
349
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 02 Dec 1999 13:59:49 PST
From: "Zentelis none" <
zentelis@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Finally
Finally! To make a long story short, I've finally saved
enough money to buy
a Stealth.. (yep, I like to buy cars with cash). I asked
a long time ago
(though i doubt anyone remembers), but what are some good
places on the net
to buy used cars? Autotrader's the only decent one i know
of since they took
over traderonline..any others? And, What I'm looking to
buy is a '94
TT...what are some good places to look for upgrades?
Eventually, I'm
planning on doing the whole 9 yards in upgrades. Any help
would be great.
Thanks!
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at
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subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 23:22:44 +0100
From: "R.G." <
robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Water Injection
> If I have an upgraded fuel system with 720
cc injectors and dump fuel in,
will I
> still see knock at 17 psi with
WI? 18 psi?
The idea is the combination of fuel and water by using
simple pump gas. I'm
positive that high psi is possible but the turbos are
way out of ther
efficiency island :(
> Is an ignition upgrade going
to be the cure-all for the early knock
problem?
This is the theory as
gapping down the plugs to 0.030 is getting rid of the
problem but calls
others. Therefore an increased energy level at the plugs
is desired ! I'm
working on a solution with GN coil packs but I can't say
anything yet. Also a
TechnoMotive ignition would help but this is probably
an expensive
solution.
> My current mid-life crisis dream is not as ambitious as
Arty's or numerous
> others. I'd just like to upgrade my '91 VR4 to
a '95 with ECS and OBDII,
get an
> OBDII datalogger for tuning, install
15G's, Split-Second system, 720cc
> injectors, etc (BC, fuel pump, pistons
& rings) (not necessarily in that
order
> ;)).
But this IS
mid-life crisis, LOL. Why the heck do you want to upgrade your
91 with the
OBDII stuff ?? Makes no sense to me at all ??? The rest is cool
and the 15g
are appropriate for the targeted power. This is pretty close to
my setup
then, although I have headers and the big GT Pro turbos ready to
go
in.
> I was hoping to install an ERL WI and run 23 psi
with no knock! Is my
> dream unrealistic?
Well, with dumping
fuel in I'm pretty sure you can run such high boost. The
WI will make this
even better and allows you to run such a high boost with
pump
gas.
> Your data is showing knock starting at 17 psi with a non-lean
condition.
This
> is very disappointing since WI is supposed to be
equivalent to 140+ octane
> fuel. What should max boost be with 140
octane fuel?
How do we know if the stock pistons/rings withstand 20 psi ?
Also if one has
a noisy valvetrain, how will the knock sensor pick up this
stuff (this is
why it is installed on a bracket between the banks). Over the
years, this
bracket got rusty as well as the KS is probably to hard in its
seat. I speak
of "false knock" and noone can tell us how this can
be eliminated. I'll
definitely replace the bracket when installing the new
injectors.
> Others have reported running 20+ psi. Folks are
upgrading to turbos
greater
> than 15G's. Pete Palmara is
installing the monster Greddy turbos, others
have
> installed GT-Pro's
hybrids, etc. What's going on here? Are folks just
>
installing these monster turbos, running high boost, and ignoring the
>
fact/probability that they are detonating?
What do they : Looking on a
A/F meter (with our crap O2 sensors) and on an
EGT gauge (what is accurate).
Running the car below the danger zone of the
EGT should indicate that there
are no problems ... but noone is really sure.
Before I got the logger I had
the car on the dyno and we cranked up boost
until the power went down instead
of up. This is where the timing got
retarded. Now, boost had then be turned
down a little for safety and this
resulted in 1.00 bars max. Now with the
datalogger it's easier to find the
dark zone as a dyno session always
resulted in $100 less in my pocket (gulp)
> Do they just not care that
they knock since they only boost for 1320 feet
?
Well, knock appears
regardless of track or street. The only reason knock is
less o nthe track is
the fact that the car is maybe not heated up that much.
> Is there
another way to eliminate knock ?
We know that a large FMIC and as smooth
piping as possible results in higher
boost at the throttle and therefore the
turbos have not to work that hard.
Therefore the discharge temp is lower, the
IC reduce it even more what
finally results in less danger for detonation and
more power.
> I'm depressed, I'm going to lunch now :)
I
was depressed as well until I was able to control the amount of fuel. Now
the
water injection does more positive than it did with the less fuel and I
feel
a little better although the ignition problem is not yet fixed.
A
sidenote : Some 3S owners also have a datalogger now but it seems they
either
don't use it or don't want to share the logs. I know that there is a
car that
has a Spearco WIS installed and I was told they run up to 20 psi
without
problems and the stock fuel system. I wanted to see a datalog to be
able to
compare to my results. But I never got a log of them :( Only Joe and
another
guy sent me their logs for analysis and it was very interesting to
see the
difference in the VPC setup and my ARC setup with currently
stock
injectors.
Guys, please note that we can learn and find new
solutions only with sharing
data and ideas. When I do a clean-up on my page I
will store all logs on my
pages for reference. It would be nice to have a
centralized DB like the DSM
guys have (not fully completed) and I will gather
them if needed.
Ok, I'm now depressed too and go to bed
:))
Roger
93'3000GT TT
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page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 02 Dec 1999 16:40:49 CST
From: "Curt Gendron" <
curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Water Injection
I suppose I better get my 2hp in here.
Roger is showing knock developing
around 17psi. He has a datalogger,
so I'm sure his numbers are good. When
John and I did testing with his
95 Stealth with the Spearco WI unit, we
installed a knock LED. It
worked as expected. With the water turned off,
the knock light went on
around 15psi. With the water turned on, the knock
light wouldn't go on
at all. Even at around 20psi. I trust our figures,
because I was
in the car, helping with the testing.
One other key thing to remember
when running over 15psi of boost with a
stock fuel system, the ECU can cause
fuel cut because the air-flow
parameters fall off the map. Basiclly
this happens when the turbos spool up
fast and varies based on air temp and
humidity.
In the heat of the summer I've gotten my Stealth to spike to
23psi. (not
recommended) This occured when I had the turbos spool up slowly
with the
Blitz and it was hot out. The ECU set off fuel cut at
23psi.
Now with winter almost here, my Stealth will hit fuel cut at 16psi
if the
turbos spool up fast and the air temps are in the 30s F. I've
done enough
testing with my car, to feel safe saying that the fuel cut was
not because
of detonation.
And Merrit, I think it is a great idea to
add a Spearco unit. It is a lot
cheaper than a big intercooler and is
a good insurance policy. ;)
Here is the mods on my car:
95 Stealth R/T
TT, HKS air filter, HKS exhaust, test pipe, gutted pre-cats,
Blitz DSBC, 1G
DSM BOV, Spearco WI, NGKs gapped at .034
Best quarter mile: 12.85
@107.4mph
Later guys,
Curt
http://www.mn3s.orgDon't forget to sign
up for the Upper Midwest Gathering at:
http://www.mn3s.org/upper-midwest.html______________________________________________________
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Your Private, Free Email at
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Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:52:56 -0600
From: "Jeff" <
spydervr4@home.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Clutch for non-turbo (FWD) cars for sale, a-pillar
I have a clutch
for non-turbo 3000GTs and Stealths for sale. It is an ACT
2600lb
pressure plate with a street disc and includes throw out bearing.
This will
fit FWD 3000GTs and Steatlhs, and all 2.0 liter turbo Talons,
Eclipses, and
Lasers. It is a very heavy duty clutch and has taken cars
into the
10's. I have one in my Eclipse and it's GREAT...never slips, yet
is
very streetable. It DOES have increased pedal pressure but it's not
bad
at all. I would like to get $375 + shipping (brand new, never
used.)
THIS WILL *NOT* FIT TURBO AWD 3000GT/STEALTHS!!!!!!
I also have
an a-pillar pod for sale already attached to an a-pillar. If
you buy
this you won't have to drill your a-pillar:) Just pop yours off and
pop
mine on. Because it's a factory a-pillar (not bought over the
parts
counter), it is covered in the same material as the dash; if you buy
one
over the parts counter, it's made of hard molded plastic. The gauge
pod
fits 52mm (2 1/16") gauges (I used an SPI dual illumination boost
gauge in
it). An a-pillar interior piece alone retails for 58.48 and an
a-pillar pod
is about $20, so how about $45 + shipping? (This will fit
all year/model
3000GTs/Stealths except Spyders)
jeff
'95 Mitsubishi
Spyder VR-4
'90 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 02 Dec 1999 18:59:16 -0500
From: Rick Diogo <
rick@ceo-consulting.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Finally
Good choice.....the 94 (in my opinion) is the best
year for the stealth. I
too searched and searched for a 94 until I
finally found mine. The best
attributes of the 94 are as
follows:
6 speed trans
last year of the Auto (climate control-digital)
A/C controls (no knobs)
17" chrome wheels that say "Dodge" - I
like that! ;)
Infinity sound system with 6 disk changer
*Not* an OBD
II vehicle, allowing for less headaches when you go to add
your mods
Good luck in your search. If I find any 94's for sale I'll shoot
you a
quick email...
Regards,
Rick
94 TT Pearl Yellow
6
speed Getrag
==================================================
the At
01:59 PM 12/2/99 -0800, Zentelis none wrote:
>Finally! To make a long
story short, I've finally saved enough money to buy
>a Stealth.. (yep, I
like to buy cars with cash). I asked a long time ago
>(though i doubt
anyone remembers), but what are some good places on the net
>to buy used
cars? Autotrader's the only decent one i know of since they took
>over
traderonline..any others? And, What I'm looking to buy is a '94
>TT...what are some good places to look for upgrades? Eventually, I'm
>planning on doing the whole 9 yards in upgrades. Any help would be
great.
>Thanks!
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get
Your Private, Free Email at
http://www.hotmail.com>For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 16:27:37 -0800
From: "Darcy Gunnlaugson" <
wce@telus.net>
Subject: Team3S: Knock
sensor
Curt;
You wrote:
snip
John and I did testing
with his 95 Stealth with the Spearco WI unit, we
installed a knock LED.
It worked as expected. With the water turned off,
the knock light went
on around 15psi. With the water turned on, the knock
light wouldn't go
on at all. Even at around 20psi. I trust our figures,
because I
was in the car, helping with the testing.
snip
How did you wire
this LED in?? Sounds like a nice safety feature.
(Also for the record,
and I am surprised no one corrected it, the exhaust
cuts automatically
from tour to sport mode at 3500rpm and not 2500rpm as I
posted in an earlier
thread.)
Best
Darc
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 02 Dec 1999 16:46:35 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <
Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Water Injection
> Ok, I'm now depressed too and go to bed
:))
Ha, LOL :).
> But this IS mid-life crisis, LOL. Why the
heck do you want to upgrade your
> 91 with the OBDII stuff ?? Makes no
sense to me at all ??? The rest is cool
All I really want is an
inexpensive Datalogger. They are $300 for OBDII. Whats
wrong with
OBDII? There is only an extra set of O2 sensors to worry about when
you
gut precats and that can be taken care of with those dummy resistor
O2
replacements. Is there something else I'm forgetting? I'd
settle for a '94 or
pre-ODBII '95 if I could get a reasonably priced
datalogger instead of the one
that Jeff (last name ?) has that costs
$2200.
I guess I'm really disappointed because I thought water injection
was the
"miracle product" that would allow boost much higher than
15 psi. According to
Curt & John's knock LED measurements it does
(we need info/measurements on how
well the knock LED really works
though).
Perhaps I should have just asked the following
questions:
Given the following upgrades of K&N air filter, electronic
boost controller, ERL
water injection system, Supra fuel pump, Split-Second
ARC & MAF system, 720 cc
injectors, 15G turbos, downpipe, gutted
pre-cats, high flow main cat, forged
pistons, high compression rings,
upgraded rods, some ignition upgrades (whenever
they are
discovered)
1) What is the max boost I can run on 92 octane fuel
without knock?
2) What is the max boost I can run on 101 octane
unleaded race fuel without
knock?
3) What is the approximate HP
achieved at these max boost levels?
I think I could be really happy with
550 or so daily driver HP with no knock :)
Regards,
Ken "just
mid-life crisis dreaming" Middaugh
- --
I'm surprised you stopped me
officer, Dunkin Donuts has a 3 for 1 special!
Ken Middaugh (858)
455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 02 Dec 1999 17:16:44 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <
Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject:
[Fwd: Re: Team3S: Water Injection]
>
> I suppose I better get
my 2hp in here. Roger is showing knock developing
> around
17psi. He has a datalogger, so I'm sure his numbers are good.
When
> John and I did testing with his 95 Stealth with the Spearco WI
unit, we
> installed a knock LED. It worked as expected. With
the water turned off,
> the knock light went on around 15psi. With
the water turned on, the knock
> light wouldn't go on at all. Even
at around 20psi. I trust our figures,
> because I was in the car,
helping with the testing.
Can you describe the knock LED, what is it, how
is it hooked up, what does it
measure (voltage?). Maybe someone
with a datalogger can compare the logger's
knock count with the knock LED to
give us an idea of how well it works.
- --
I'm surprised you
stopped me officer, Dunkin Donuts has a 3 for 1 special!
Ken Middaugh
(858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 19:38:50 -0600
From: "Jeff" <
spydervr4@home.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Water Injection (semi-long)
- ----- Original Message
-----
From: "Ken Middaugh" <
Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
To:
"R.G." <
robby@freesurf.ch>
Cc:
"Team3S" <
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>;
"Rick Brown - work"
<
RBrown@freewayinsurance.com>
Sent:
Thursday, December 02, 1999 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water
Injection
> All I really want is an inexpensive Datalogger.
They are $300 for OBDII.
Whats
> wrong with OBDII? There is only
an extra set of O2 sensors to worry about
when
> you gut precats and
that can be taken care of with those dummy resistor O2
>
replacements. Is there something else I'm forgetting? I'd settle for
a
'94 or
> pre-ODBII '95 if I could get a reasonably priced datalogger
instead of the
one
> that Jeff (last name ?) has that costs
$2200.
Wong :) Jeff Wong...heh... I was the one from the '98
DSM shootout who
blew up alongside Barry King and had to do the clutch swap
in the parking
lot of the hotel:) The Snap On datalogger is actually
not as good as the
TMO in my opinion. It's probably better for
troubleshooting, but not nearly
as good for tuning. It has a tiny
numeric display that only supports DRB
functions, but was the one of the few
things I could find that could monitor
timing advance. Unfortunately as
it stands, mine doesn't even work on my
car because I don't have the right
adapter cables (bought mine used.) Also
that $2200 doesn't include the
datalogger software or PC interface cable.
> I guess I'm really
disappointed because I thought water injection was the
> "miracle
product" that would allow boost much higher than 15 psi.
According
to
> Curt & John's knock LED measurements it does (we need
info/measurements on
how
> well the knock LED really works
though).
The knock LED, if I am not incorrect works the same way that it
does on the
DSM cars (Talons/Eclipses/Lasers) and I see no reason why it
shouldn't. It
isn't actually a knock LED--it's a boost solenoid
LED. What it does is
monitor when the boost solenoid shuts off.
This is useful because the boost
solenoid will only shut off for a certain
number of reasons:
1) if the air flow measured passes a certain point (of
which I have no idea)
2) if the knock sensor detects knock above a certain
point
3) certain error codes will turn the solenoid off too
#3 really
isn't relevent to our discussion because we assume you have a
working
car. #1 and #2 however, are very relevent. From the factory,
the
cars run very rich, for safety reasons. Unfortunately this means
that they
will set off the BS LED (Boost Solenoid LED) before there's
actually knock.
If you use an AFC or VPC or whatever to lean your car out a
little you can
take care of this "false knock." Because you
are required to lean your car
out in order to make this tuning technique
work, you'll probably need bigger
fuel injectors. The reason that
leaning out with an AFC/VPC works is
because both play around with the MAS
signal in order to control fuel. To
lean out they tell the ECU that
there's less air flowing; to richen up they
tell the ECU there's more
flowing. I was able to run 18psi on pump gas in
my Eclipse with zero
knock (as determined by both the TMO datalogger and BS
LED) by dumping fuel
in (AFC with 550cc injectors.) I didn't hit fuel cut
or trigger the
knock LED because my AFC knobs were still on the left (lean.)
So, here's what
you need, short of a TECII or Motec (I hate giving
away
secrets!):
fuel controller (to lean out the MAS signal)
big
fuel injectors (to compensate for the leaning out of the AFC)
good
intercooling (to reduce cylinder temperatures, and therefore
reduce
knock)
The fuel injectors need to be big enough to put you in
the ballpark for how
much fuel you need. You can use the fuel
controller to fine tune it (as
long as it's on the lean side.) If you
ever have to richen up the mixture
with the fuel controller you need bigger
fuel injectors or if you're only a
little bit off an adjustable fuel pressure
regulator.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that all the ranges
need to be leaned.
If you need to richen up one particular RPM range to give
you the correct
fuel curve, then by all means do so because the goal is to
keep the BS LED
from coming on because of too much air flow and richening up
one range won't
necessarily trigger it. It's really something you have
to experiment with.
IMO the BS LED is USELESS if you have no fuel control or
you're using your
fuel control to richen up.
> 1) What is the
max boost I can run on 92 octane fuel without knock?
> 2) What is
the max boost I can run on 101 octane unleaded race fuel
without
>
knock?
> 3) What is the approximate HP achieved at these max boost
levels?
Unfortunately this all depends on each individual car. Too
many variables
exist, like build quality, EXACT modifications, weather,
compression, etc.
You'll just have to find out yourself:)
jeff
'95
Mitsubishi Spyder VR-4
'90 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 02 Dec 1999 20:56:38 -0500
From: Rick Diogo <
rick@ceo-consulting.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Chrysler DRB II scan tool for sale
I have decided to sell my DRB
II scan tool. It comes complete with the
Mitsubishi adapter and the
Jeep/Eagle adapter. It comes with the yellow
"Super
cartridge". It scans all models from 83 to 93. (and some 94 models)
This scanner is $2,800 dealer cost. I will let mine go for $1,500.
It is
basically brand new. Comes with all the different cables to do
both
Chrysler and Mitsubishi. Tells you everything from knock to o2
voltage, to
Mhz (air flow meter), to air charge temperature, injector duty
cycle,
wastegate duty cycle, purge operation, fault codes, suspension (sport
vs
tour) exhaust mode (sport vs tour), odometer mileage check (burned into
the
Eprom-Chrysler only), and about twenty other things. As for the 3/s
cars,
it will work on 91-93 TT and non turbo models (both VR-4 and
Stealth)
Eclipse/Laser/Talon up to 94.
First come first serve. Serious
inquiries only please.
Regards,
Rick
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 19:34:34 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Knock sensor
Just a note about the "knock LED"
modification.
It does NOT detect knock. What it does is detect the
ECU's attempt to open
the waste gates to dump boost.
By the time the
ECU is doing this the engine is operating at maximum
ignition retard.
Translation, when that light comes on and the stock boost
control system has
been bypassed (any boost controller) there are no safety
measures.
I
did this very simple modification and took it out. It is a very
loose
indication at best and the very bad thing about it is that it can
be
misused. That is, if you don't see the LED then there must not be
knock.
This is simply NOT the case.
So, if you install it, use it as a
sign that you have **exceeded** (not
approached or encroached upon) the
maximum knock counts the ECU will
tolerate. It cannot be used to
reliably indicate the presence of excessive
knock. Excessive knock is
ALREADY happening well before the LED comes on.
Roger's measurements
indicate this.
On the topic of detonation and knock, this is a normal
occurence in any
internal combustion engine. Normally aspirated engines
will (or rather can)
benefit from anti-knock and intake charge cooling
devices too, it is just
that the benefits will usually be over a narrowing
operating spectrum and
offer a less dramatic icrease in power in the absence
of other work (like
increased flow, increased compression and general
increased engine
efficiency).
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
>
>
> Curt;
>
> You
wrote:
>
> snip
>
> John and I did testing with his 95
Stealth with the Spearco WI unit, we
> installed a knock LED. It
worked as expected. With the water turned off,
> the knock light
went on around 15psi. With the water turned on, the knock
> light
wouldn't go on at all. Even at around 20psi. I trust our
figures,
> because I was in the car, helping with the
testing.
>
> snip
>
> How did you wire this LED in??
Sounds like a nice safety feature.
>
> (Also for the record, and I
am surprised no one corrected it, the exhaust
> cuts automatically
from tour to sport mode at 3500rpm and not
> 2500rpm as I
> posted
in an earlier thread.)
>
>
> Best
>
>
Darc
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 02 Dec 1999 21:40:20 -0500
From: Michael Booker <
mrbook@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: NA
news.
I wasn't going to use larger pipesfor my design, as I saw the stock
pipe
and the 90 degree "intrusion" of the rear bank into the
exhaust flow,
and my "NA downpipe" is merely going to smooth this
out. It will collect
and merge into the converter, like the TT downpipes. I
am not expecting
a huge gain here. I'm just doing as many bolt-on mods as I
can to my
motor before I have to result to the fun stuff(boring/stroker kit,
head
porting) which will require engine teardown.
I have a question for
any NA OBD-II car owner out there. Can you look at
your exhaust, and tell me
how many O2 housings you have in front of the
converter. My 93 only has one,
and I'm hoping the OBD-II cars don't have
more in front of the cat so that
the downpipe I'm having made will be
universal for all NA engines.
Thanks!
Matt
3/Si #311
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 02 Dec 1999 23:29:37 CST
From: "Curt Gendron" <
curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Knock sensor
Well, John's first attempt ended up killing his
knock sensor after a few
months. The new way is the same way the 2G
DSM does it. I'll leave it to
the detectives out there to search
http://www.dsm.org for the
installation.
later,
Curt
Sign up for the Upper Midwest Gathering
at:
http://www.mn3s.org/upper-midwest.html>From:
"Darcy Gunnlaugson" <
wce@telus.net>
>To: "Team3S"
<
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Subject:
Team3S: Knock sensor
>Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 16:27:37
-0800
>
>Curt;
>snip
>
>How did you wire this LED
in?? Sounds like a nice safety
feature.
>
>
>
>Best
>
>Darc
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Date:
Thu, 02 Dec 1999 23:46:19 CST
From: "Curt Gendron" <
curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Water Injection (semi-long)
I agree with everything you say
except for the statement below. The BS LED
will blink slowly in the
low RPMs but if it turns solid in the upper RPMs
then you know the ECU is
sending a signal to the boost solinoid because too
much knock is present and
the timing is getting retarded. And therefore the
ECU is trying to adjust
boost.
This is vital if you have water injection with a stock fuel
system. It will
tell you if the water is working.
The ECU is
constantly sending signals to your boost solinoid. If you ever
run
your car hard on the highway and come to a stoplight and idle, listen
carefully to the middle part of your firewall area. You'll probably
hear a
little tick-tick-tick noise. The boost solinoid is making
changes since
your now idling instead of WOT.
later,
Curt
http://www.mn3s.org-
--------------------------------------
IMO the BS LED is USELESS if you have
no fuel control or you're using your
fuel control to richen
up.
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Date:
Thu, 02 Dec 1999 23:54:09 CST
From: "Curt Gendron" <
curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Knock sensor
Hey Barry,
Actually the first knock LED
that was in John's car did detect knock and not
ECU signals to the boost
solinoid. It was connected directly to the knock
sensor. (Hence
the reason for the knock sensor to eventually get fried)
But your
right. The LED that the DSM guys have been using will only tell
you
when timing retard and possible detonation is occuring. You don't want
that LED to light up very often, unless you like rebuilds.
;)
later,
Curt
Sign up for the Upper Midwest Gathering at:
http://www.mn3s.org/upper-midwest.html>From:
"Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
>Reply-To: <
beking@home.com>
>To:
"Team3S" <
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Subject:
RE: Team3S: Knock sensor
>Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 19:34:34
-0700
>
>Just a note about the "knock LED"
modification.
>
>It does NOT detect knock. What it does is
detect the ECU's attempt to open
>the waste gates to dump
boost.
>
>By the time the ECU is doing this the engine is operating
at maximum
>ignition retard. Translation, when that light comes on
and the
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Date:
Fri, 03 Dec 1999 02:08:46 -0500
From: "John T. Christian" <
jczoom@geocities.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Stock rims question....
Hi George,
Sorry George the TT
rims won't fit either.
I had to buy new rims when I converted to the '94
system.
But the stock TT rims will almost fit over Brad's BIG RED
braking
system. I modified a set of Supra TT rotors to use with Brad's
system.
They have a different offset than our rotors and fit back farther
toward
the engine so there is even more clearance. But you'd have to
grind
away part of the weld that holds the spoke onto the rim. I
didn't.
BTW Brad's BIG REDs are less expensive than converting to the
stock '94
system. PLUS they will repeatedly stop our heavy cars even
under road
course conditions.
You can see my BIG REDS on my homepage
as well as brake cooling system.
If you plan to do high performance
driving you'll need to upgrade your
brakes.
Be of good
cheer
John
www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538George
Kuo wrote:
>
> I was wondering if '94+ stock rotors will fit into
1st
> gen Stealth RT TT rims? I know they wont fit into 1st
> gen
VR4 rims.. thanx in advance for your help!!
>
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Flats/8576/Intro.html>
-
--
JCZoooM 93 TT 12.46@109Mph Now with Porsche
brakes
Email--->
JCZooM@iname.com http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:07:08 +0100
From: "R.G." <
robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Chrysler DRB II scan tool for sale
The TMO datalogger has a DRBII
simulation mode built in ... cost is $300 for OBDI systems (90-93 and some 94) !
Cable is the same for Stealth and 3k.
> This scanner is $2,800 dealer
cost. I will let mine go for $1,500. It is
> basically brand
new. Comes with all the different cables to do both
> Chrysler and
Mitsubishi.
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:28:43 +0100
From: "R.G." <
robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Water Injection
> All I really want is an inexpensive
Datalogger.
TMO datalogger $300 icludes everything including graphs.
Although I do have a wishlist but Todd Day is not willing to add more features
:(
> They are $300 for OBDII. Whats wrong with OBDII?
There is only an extra set of O2 sensors to worry about when
> you gut
precats and that can be taken care of with those dummy resistor O2
replacements.
Cost .... it simply gives you ... nothing but OBDII. And
this only for getting a datalogger that is not half as good as the TMO ? We
speak almost for a year about the logger I'm using. You may check back my
pages for some comparisons on the ARC/MAF kit where I included some
logs.
> I guess I'm really disappointed because I thought water
injection was the
> "miracle product" that would allow boost
much higher than 15 psi. According to
> Curt & John's knock LED
measurements it does (we need info/measurements on how
> well the knock
LED really works though).
Well, I think it was a good begin to get a
simple (more ore less) solution for a knock LED. With the TMO knock is logged as
the ECU sees it and this counts to me and nothing else. The knock LED will be a
warning light for me in the future that tells me that there is sonething going
wrong. I think a knock LED with a filter for the signal is not that good for
tuning in because on a test drive there is just not enough time for us humanoids
to check out everything at the same time.
> Given the following
upgrades of K&N air filter, electronic boost controller, ERL
> water
injection system, Supra fuel pump, Split-Second ARC & MAF system, 720
cc
> injectors, 15G turbos, downpipe, gutted pre-cats, high flow main cat,
forged
> pistons, high compression rings, upgraded rods, some ignition
upgrades (whenever
> they are discovered)
This is damn close to my
setup I have on the car in Spring. Only the pistons and rings are causing me
headache :((
> 1) What is the max boost I can run on 92 octane
fuel without knock?
> 2) What is the max boost I can run on 101
octane unleaded race fuel without
> knock?
> 3) What is the
approximate HP achieved at these max boost levels?
1) who knows ..... (me
soon)
2) I will never find out (no access to such fuel here)
3) approx
600hp
> I think I could be really happy with 550 or so daily driver HP
with no knock :)
The good thing is that the ARC allows you to upgrade to
720cc at any time.
To me it was ok so far as I see that there is really
an improvement (compared to many other mods). I was blocked by testing as the
more water I injected the weaker the ignition got so till now we know that other
cars with WI run very good and I may have to fight with the different quality of
fuel ! We will see when the snow is gone ;-)
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:37:59 +0100
From: "R.G." <
robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Knock sensor
> Well, John's first attempt ended up killing his
knock sensor after a few
> months. The new way is the same way the
2G DSM does it. I'll leave it to
> the detectives out there to
search
http://www.dsm.org for the
installation.
As previously mentioned, the knock LED was hooked up with a
filter that was tuned in. It is not that simple to tune such a filter and
unfortunately fried the KS :(
The first way the DSM guys hock up the
knock LED (boost solenoid) is more wrong than right. This because the valve
alternates due to our TT system (no knock measured). Also it simply shows when
the valve is closed and this is pretty early !
The second way the DSMs
are working on is using a GM filter that could be directly attached to the KS.
This circuit is replaceable in the GM ECUs and I for myself replaced the one in
my LT1 with the one of the LT4 that are less sensitive (changed valvetrain).
Unfortunately, the KS is not the same and noone has tried it out (danger of
killing a KS or ECU !)
I'm having the MSD KS for $149 and it comes with a
complicated analoge filter, a 10LED bargraph for showing the knock and a sensor
(i.e. microphone). Unfortunately, thing is pretty large and I just don't know
where to mount it.
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:42:07 +0100
From: "R.G." <
robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Water Injection (semi-long)
> I agree with everything you say
except for the statement below. The BS LED
> will blink slowly in
the low RPMs but if it turns solid in the upper RPMs
> then you know the
ECU is sending a signal to the boost solinoid because too
> much knock is
present and the timing is getting retarded. And therefore the
> ECU is
trying to adjust boost.
Almost true. But we all know that boost is
calculated from the airflow and therefore not real. Now the ECU sees a specific
boost then and starts to close the BS. This is because the system simply wants
to keep the boost at the stock level. Therefore it is closed long before we
really hit our desired boost levels. Of course this changes when using a fuel
controller !
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:47:13 -0800
From: "Sam Shelat" <
sshelat@erols.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Water Injection
What about thermal coatings for the pistons and
combustion chambers? has
anyone tried
water wetter from Redline to
help reduce engine temps? I know these might
give only minor
improvements
but every bit helps in helping eliminate detonation. Also,
how good are our
heads? Do they introduce enough swirl and tumble to
help burn the mixture?
Sam 95 VR4
- -----Original
Message-----
From: R.G. <
robby@freesurf.ch>
To: Team3S <
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date:
Thursday, December 02, 1999 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water
Injection
>> If I have an upgraded fuel system with 720 cc
injectors and dump fuel in,
>will I
>> still see knock at 17 psi
with WI? 18 psi?
>
>The idea is the combination of fuel and
water by using simple pump gas. I'm
>positive that high psi is possible
but the turbos are way out of ther
>efficiency island
:(
>
>> Is an ignition upgrade going to be the cure-all for the
early knock
>problem?
>
>This is the theory as gapping down
the plugs to 0.030 is getting rid of the
>problem but calls others.
Therefore an increased energy level at the plugs
>is desired ! I'm working
on a solution with GN coil packs but I can't say
>anything yet. Also a
TechnoMotive ignition would help but this is probably
>an expensive
solution.
>
>> My current mid-life crisis dream is not as
ambitious as Arty's or
numerous
>> others. I'd just like to
upgrade my '91 VR4 to a '95 with ECS and OBDII,
>get an
>> OBDII
datalogger for tuning, install 15G's, Split-Second system, 720cc
>>
injectors, etc (BC, fuel pump, pistons & rings) (not necessarily in
that
>order
>> ;)).
>
>But this IS mid-life crisis,
LOL. Why the heck do you want to upgrade your
>91 with the OBDII stuff ??
Makes no sense to me at all ??? The rest is cool
>and the 15g are
appropriate for the targeted power. This is pretty close to
>my setup
then, although I have headers and the big GT Pro turbos ready
to
go
>in.
>
>> I was hoping to install an ERL WI
and run 23 psi with no knock! Is my
>> dream
unrealistic?
>
>Well, with dumping fuel in I'm pretty sure you can
run such high boost. The
>WI will make this even better and allows you to
run such a high boost with
>pump gas.
>
>> Your data is
showing knock starting at 17 psi with a non-lean
condition.
>This
>> is very disappointing since WI is supposed to
be equivalent to 140+
octane
>> fuel. What should max boost be
with 140 octane fuel?
>
>How do we know if the stock pistons/rings
withstand 20 psi ? Also if one
has
>a noisy valvetrain, how will the
knock sensor pick up this stuff (this is
>why it is installed on a bracket
between the banks). Over the years, this
>bracket got rusty as well as the
KS is probably to hard in its seat. I
speak
>of "false knock"
and noone can tell us how this can be eliminated. I'll
>definitely replace
the bracket when installing the new injectors.
>
>> Others have
reported running 20+ psi. Folks are upgrading to
turbos
>greater
>> than 15G's. Pete Palmara is installing
the monster Greddy turbos, others
>have
>> installed GT-Pro's
hybrids, etc. What's going on here? Are folks just
>>
installing these monster turbos, running high boost, and ignoring
the
>> fact/probability that they are detonating?
>
>What
do they : Looking on a A/F meter (with our crap O2 sensors) and on an
>EGT
gauge (what is accurate). Running the car below the danger zone of
the
>EGT should indicate that there are no problems ... but noone is
really
sure.
>Before I got the logger I had the car on the dyno and we
cranked up boost
>until the power went down instead of up. This is where
the timing got
>retarded. Now, boost had then be turned down a little for
safety and this
>resulted in 1.00 bars max. Now with the datalogger it's
easier to find the
>dark zone as a dyno session always resulted in $100
less in my pocket
(gulp)
>
>> Do they just not care that they
knock since they only boost for 1320 feet
>?
>
>Well, knock
appears regardless of track or street. The only reason knock is
>less o
nthe track is the fact that the car is maybe not heated up
that
much.
>
>> Is there another way to eliminate knock
?
>
>We know that a large FMIC and as smooth piping as possible
results in
higher
>boost at the throttle and therefore the turbos have
not to work that hard.
>Therefore the discharge temp is lower, the IC
reduce it even more what
>finally results in less danger for detonation
and more power.
>
>> I'm depressed, I'm going to lunch now
:)
>
>I was depressed as well until I was able to control the amount
of fuel. Now
>the water injection does more positive than it did with the
less fuel and I
>feel a little better although the ignition problem is not
yet fixed.
>
>A sidenote : Some 3S owners also have a datalogger now
but it seems they
>either don't use it or don't want to share the logs. I
know that there is a
>car that has a Spearco WIS installed and I was told
they run up to 20 psi
>without problems and the stock fuel system. I
wanted to see a datalog to be
>able to compare to my results. But I never
got a log of them :( Only Joe
and
>another guy sent me their logs for
analysis and it was very interesting to
>see the difference in the VPC
setup and my ARC setup with currently
stock
>injectors.
>
>Guys, please note that we can learn and
find new solutions only with
sharing
>data and ideas. When I do a
clean-up on my page I will store all logs on my
>pages for reference. It
would be nice to have a centralized DB like the DSM
>guys have (not fully
completed) and I will gather them if needed.
>
>Ok, I'm now
depressed too and go to bed :))
>
>Roger
>93'3000GT
TT
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm>
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http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:53:18 -0800
From: "Sam Shelat" <
sshelat@erols.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Finally
>Good choice.....the 94 (in my opinion) is the best
year for the stealth. I
>too searched and searched for a 94 until I
finally found mine. The best
>attributes of the 94 are as
follows:
>
>6 speed trans
>last year of the Auto (climate
control-digital) A/C controls (no knobs)
- -----so does the 95
VR4
>17" chrome wheels that say "Dodge" - I like
that! ;)
- -----the 95 comes with 18" (heavy) chrome
wheels
>Infinity sound system with 6 disk changer
>*Not* an OBD
II vehicle, allowing for less headaches when you go to add
- ------the 95
and 94 have a quasi-OBDII w/o the extra 02 sensors, but
have
its not OBDII, but has the
OBDII port?
other than that your info is right on. I do not know
who has a datalogger
for 94-95
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
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http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:09:25 -0600
From: "Basol, John" <
jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Knock sensor
OK to clarify.
My first knock LED was
attached to the knock sensor signal line coming into
the ECU. The
filter was essentially an electronic crossover comprised of
some high-end
audio pieces a friend of mine soldered together on a board for
me (he did a
damn nice job too). :-) What happened, I still don't know to
this
day. Bottom line the knock sensor ceased to provide a signal.
Now,
knock sensors are extremely tough little pieces, and ruining one
ALMOST
always involves physical damage, not electrical. Perhaps mine
was just a
bad component to start with, but I removed our circuit none the
less. It
seemed to me that I just shouldn't be screwing around with the
one component
left on the car that might save my ass. :-)
So now
I have a LED attached to the stock BCS. It's operation is difficult
to
get used to. Thanks to Todd Day I have a little info about why it
acts
the way it does. As you start to accelerate the BCS will pulse,
extremely
fast at first and then slower and slower as the rpms
increase. The ECU
pulsates the BCS to bring the boost in more smoothly
(under normal driving
conditions). Now, eventually (about 5000RPM), the
ECU quits pulsating the
BCS entirely, at this point the turbos are blowing
for all they are worth.
If the ECU detects knock, and it can't get rid of it
by pulling the timing
back, it will then turn the BCS on steady-state, to
drop pressure across the
board. So is the indicator useful? I
belive so. Has knock occurred
already when the light comes on
solid? Yep, and ignoring it will certainly
lead to winter project out
in the garage getting intimate with the internals
of a 3 liter Mits.
The key is to respond accordingly, and immediately. Has
mine
tripped? Yep, ran out of water. A pretty bone head thing to do,
I
know. When it lit steady, my first thought was "What the
hell?". Over to
the side of the road I went, proceeded to
check the fuse for the water,
then found the empty resevoir. I filled
the tank, and within about 5 miles
of grandma driving the light went back to
blinking.
Now as to safe boost levels with water. I do believe one
can run 17-18psi
max pressure with the 9Bs. Keep in mind the 9Bs will
only make this amount
of pressure to about 5200RPM, then start to fall.
Also keep in mind that
the motor will have 'some' knock even in stock
form. Roger could confirm
this for us by datalogging a 12psi full
throttle 4th gear pull from 30mph.
You will probably see knock counts around
10. Todd Day mentioned the car
starts pulling the timing back when the
knock counts trips 26. I had the
oppurtunity to datalog a friends car
with the Spearco installed (a '92 VR4).
On the water at 17psi we saw knock
counts of 6-11. 6 was the peak in 2nd
gear, 11 the peak in
3rd. Capping off the water, and setting boost to 15psi
we saw knock
counts of 18-22. We never did see the timing get pulled back.
It was
running at 52 deg advanced at the redline during both of those runs.
I am
pretty sure if I was able to datalog my car I would see knock counts
around
15 when I'm running 18psi on pump gas. I'm not going to sweat
it
though, I've been doing it for almost 6 months now, without any
problems.
The key to all of this is balance. Strapping 15Gs to the
car and expecting
to get 18psi at the redline without knock is not
realistic. With more
airflow one needs more fuel. Without more
fuel the combustion temps will
skyrocket, once again creating dangerous knock
conditions. Water is not a
substitue for a healthy fuel system.
In our case, it simply lets us run at
the edge of our fuel
system.
John Basol
'95 RT/TT 12.85 @ 107.3
'00
Eclipse GT "Go ahead, put your coffee on the dash, it'll still be
there
when we hit the 1320' mark."
For subscribe/unsubscribe
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Date:
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:33:25 +0100
From: "R.G." <
robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Water Injection / temperatures
> What about thermal coatings
for the pistons and combustion chambers ?
Forged pistons are good enough
for our engines. The problem is, that thermal coated parts will not transfer
heat good enough and therefore are not a wishful thing for cylinder walls as an
example.
> anyone tried water wetter from Redline to help reduce
engine temps?
Water wetter is a coolant (addon ?) and will keep the
engine running cooler. But on our cars, this is not a problem and therefore may
not help a lot if any.
> Also, how good are our heads? Do
they introduce enough swirl and tumble to help burn the mixture?
Here you
touched a good point ! I think there is improvement possible at least on the
exhaust side but also on the turbulence factor for the inlets. I will probably
get a set of used heads (with damaged valves) and let one do a good job on them.
As you said, maybe every little helps to reduce the tendency for
detonation.
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:08:09 -0600
From: "Dy, Leonard" <
DyL@CTT.com>
Subject: Team3S: hallman boost
controller
Just acquired a Hallman boost controller from a friend that
had it installed
in a DSM. The only problem is that I only have
installation instructions
for the DSM application. Obviously there a
differences in the set-up, maybe
minor, but differences at that.
I believe some people have this boost
controller installed already and I was
hoping someone could give me the
information I need to install it
properly.
Thanks,
Len 95 VR4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:36:50 -0600
From: Matt Jannusch <
MAJ@BigCharts.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: hallman boost controller
> Just acquired a Hallman boost
controller from a friend that
> had it installed in a DSM. The only
problem is that I only
> have installation instructions for the DSM
application.
> Obviously there a differences in the set-up, maybe
>
minor, but differences at that. I believe some people have
>
this boost controller installed already and I was hoping
> someone could
give me the information I need to install it properly.
On the
Y-pipe near the throttle body is a hose and barb which feeds the stock boost
control system. Disconnect the hose and cap off the barb somehow (short
piece of hose with a screw inserted in the end will work if you don't have a
better way - the Hallman comes with a little cap that works). Tee the line
from the throttle body to the compressor bypass valve (CBV is behind the airbox,
when looking at it from the passenger side) and put the feed end of the Hallman
on the tee. The other major hose goes to the wastegate lines, which are
connected to a connector behind the motor near the top which looks like an
"H". One of the legs on the connector goes to the feed hose
disconnected in the first step, two others go to the turbos' wastegate actuators
and the last hose goes to the boost control solenoid on the firewall.
Disconnect the two lines from the "H" connector that go to the
wastegate actuators and put a "T" on there, connecting them together
and to the output end of th!
e Hallman. If there's a little line on the
Hallman near the output end, you can get a reducer piece from an auto parts shop
or hardware store to connect it to the line that goes to the boost control
solenoid.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
For
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Date:
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:20:01 +0100
From: "R.G." <
robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: hallman boost controller
> Disconnect the two lines from the
"H" connector that go to the wastegate actuators
> and put a
"T" on there, connecting them together and to the output end of the
Hallman.
Do it simple and connect the disconnected line from the y-pipe
to the Hallman outlet. Then remove the lower hose from the boost solenoid and
cap both sides off. Do NOT LEAVE the little hoses open as described before
because the one at the boost solenoid could suck in dirty are into the rear
turbo.
Good luck !
Roger
93'3000GT TT
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info, our web page is
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Date:
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:24:19 -0600
From: Matt Jannusch <
MAJ@BigCharts.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: hallman boost controller
> Do it simple and connect the
disconnected line from the
> y-pipe to the Hallman outlet. Then remove
the lower hose from
> the boost solenoid and cap both sides off. Do NOT
LEAVE the
> little hoses open as described before because the one at the
> boost solenoid could suck in dirty are into the rear
turbo.
Nope, don't do that. The Hallman wants to see manifold
pressure, not Y-pipe pressure to help keep the spoolup as rapid as possible when
you get back on the gas.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
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subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 03 Dec 1999 14:15:44 -0500
From: Rick D <
rick@ceo-consulting.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Chrysler DRB II scan tool for sale
At 10:07 AM 12/3/99 +0100,
R.G. wrote:
>The TMO datalogger has a DRBII simulation mode built in ...
cost is $300
>for OBDI systems (90-93 and some 94) ! Cable is the same
for Stealth and 3k.
Who makes this TMO datalogger? I would be
seriously surprised if the
datalogger has the same diagnostic capabilities
as a Factory (Chrysler)
professional scan tool. I have
used the MUT scan tool when I wrenched
for Mitsubishi and it doesn't hold a
candle to the DRB II....not even close.
> > This
scanner is $2,800 dealer cost. I will let mine go for $1,500. It
is
> > basically brand new. Comes with all the different cables
to do both
> > Chrysler and
Mitsubishi.
>
>Roger
>93'3000GT TT
>For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFor
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http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:46:50 -0700
From: "Kevin Fanciulli" <
nebula9@home.com>
Subject: Team3S: Rear
wheel spins, front doesn't budge -- AWD???
Hi everyone. I've got a
quick question regarding the AWD of the TT's...
Having trouble trying to get
up my driveway today in 3 inches of snow, I
opened my door and noticed that
the rear wheel was spinning yet the front
didn't move! I'm not an
expert w/ the AWD makeup but I thought it would
always drive the front
wheels... how could they NOT be driven? It's all
connected together via
hardware, right? I can't think of any component
damage that would cause
this.
I tried all different throttle positions... turbos full boost and
no boost,
clutch slip and no clutch slip, etc... The front wheel would
not move. I
did hear a bit of a 'whining' (not very high pitched) sound
coming from the
engine when the rear wheels began to spin -- might be related
to my
problem...?
If it matters at all, I have a limited-slip rear
differential (which is
probably the only reason I was able to finally get
into my garage). My
clutch is also most likely going out, although it
is not 'slipping' yet --
just hard to engage.
Any help would be
appreciated!
- -kevin fanciulli
'92 Stealth RT/TT
3Si
#0375
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:43:06 -0800 (PST)
From: joseph dorsey <
ja_dorsey@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Bay Area Stealth/3KGT
List,
First off, this list provides
great info. echange.
I just spent @ $1,100 in parts and labor
for
replacing:
Timing Belt/Water Pump, Drive Belts, and Spark Plugs.
Labor ran $600 (Mitsu Dealership.) Do any of you Bay
Area residents
know of any good, experienced,
independent "less expensive"
Dodge/Mitsu mechanics in
our area? Any referrals would be greatly
appreciated.
Thanks,
jdorsey '91 stealth r/t twin
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Date:
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:22:01 -0600
From: Matt Jannusch <
MAJ@BigCharts.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Rear wheel spins, front doesn't budge -- AWD???
> Having
trouble trying to get up my driveway today in 3 inches
> of snow, I
opened my door and noticed that the rear wheel was
> spinning yet the
front didn't move! I'm not an expert w/ the
> AWD makeup but I
thought it would always drive the front
> wheels... how could they NOT be
driven? It's all connected
> together via hardware, right? I
can't think of any component
> damage that would cause this.
The
front differential is open, meaning it isn't limited slip. Were neither of
the front wheels spinning, or possibly just the one on the side of the car you
weren't watching?
It is possible that the viscous coupling in the tranny
is damaged. You could also possibly have broken spider gears in the front
differential, which would cause a lack of power transfer to the front, however
then I'd expect that your tranny would be broken rather quickly by the loose
pieces floating around in the oil. You probably would've heard/noticed
something that major. Easiest way to check is to put the car on a lift or
on four secure jackstands and start it up and put it in gear. With no
resistance on the wheels, all four should turn. You'll likely be able to
stop one of the fronts without a whole lot of effort, but both rear wheels
should spin all the time or require a fair amount of effort to change speed on
one side or the other.
> I tried all different throttle positions...
turbos full boost
> and no boost, clutch slip and no clutch slip,
etc... The
> front wheel would not move. I did hear a bit of a
'whining'
> (not very high pitched) sound coming from the engine when
the
> rear wheels began to spin -- might be related to my
>
problem...?
Does this statement mean that you railed on it with the
wheels spinning freely? If so, the viscous coupler is probably damaged now
if it wasn't already. Read the owners manual, it specifically tells you
not to do this for that reason.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:52:17 -0700
From: "Kevin Fanciulli" <
nebula9@home.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE:
Rear wheel spins, CONFIRMED - fronts don't spin.
I just went out and
confirmed with my brother that neither of the front
wheels move when the rear
wheels are spinning... So I guess this most
likely means the worst
:(.
<looking over warranty papers to see if transmission is
covered>
- -kevin fanciulli
'92 Stealth RT/TT
3Si #0375
>
-----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff [
mailto:spydervr4@home.com]
> Sent:
Friday, December 03, 1999 1:16 PM
> To:
stealth@starnet.net> Subject: Re:
Rear wheel spins, front doesn't budge -- AWD???
>
>
> If that
is indeed true (verify by having someone else look at the
> car,
while
> you do it) then you have a toasted center differential.
>
Unfortunately this
> means you need a new transmission. Before you
jump to any
> conclusions, make
> sure you are ABSOLUTELY
RIGHT. Under normal conditions, assuming all 4
> wheels loose
traction for more than about half a second, you should have
> both rear
wheels spinning and one front spinning (no front LSD.)
>
>
jeff
> '95 Mitsubishi Spyder VR-4
> '90 Mitsubishi Eclipse
GSX
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
"Kevin Fanciulli" <
nebula9@home.com>
> To:
"Team3S" <
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>;
"Starnet Mailing List"
> <stealth@starnet.net>
>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 1:46 PM
> Subject: Rear wheel spins, front
doesn't budge -- AWD???
>
>
> > Hi everyone. I've got
a quick question regarding the AWD of the TT's...
> > Having trouble
trying to get up my driveway today in 3 inches of snow, I
> > opened my
door and noticed that the rear wheel was spinning yet
> the front
>
> didn't move! I'm not an expert w/ the AWD makeup but I thought it
would
> > always drive the front wheels... how could they NOT be
driven? It's all
> > connected together via hardware,
right? I can't think of any component
> > damage that would cause
this.
> >
> > I tried all different throttle positions...
turbos full boost and no
> boost,
> > clutch slip and no clutch
slip, etc... The front wheel would
> not move. I
> >
did hear a bit of a 'whining' (not very high pitched) sound coming from
>
the
> > engine when the rear wheels began to spin -- might be related
to my
> > problem...?
> >
> > If it matters at all, I
have a limited-slip rear differential (which is
> > probably the only
reason I was able to finally get into my garage). My
> > clutch
is also most likely going out, although it is not
> 'slipping' yet
--
> > just hard to engage.
> >
> > Any help would be
appreciated!
> > -kevin fanciulli
> > '92 Stealth
RT/TT
> > 3Si #0375
> >
>
>
>
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:14:58 -0800
From: "Darcy Gunnlaugson" <
wce@telus.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE:
Rear wheel spins, CONFIRMED - fronts don't spin.
Hi Kevin;
I think
Matt has diagnosed the viscous coupling as the likely culprit in
this
case. Has it been towed in the past?? This could be the reason for
it
now being a problem. AWD have to be trailered, never
towed.
BEst
Darc
- -----Original Message-----
From: Kevin
Fanciulli <
nebula9@home.com>
To:
Team3S <
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>;
stealth@starnet.net<
stealth@starnet.net>
Date: Friday,
December 03, 1999 12:57 PM
Subject: Team3S: RE: Rear wheel spins, CONFIRMED -
fronts don't spin.
>I just went out and confirmed with my brother
that neither of the front
>wheels move when the rear wheels are
spinning... So I guess this most
>likely means the worst
:(.
>
><looking over warranty papers to see if transmission is
covered>
>-kevin fanciulli
>'92 Stealth RT/TT
>3Si
#0375
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jeff [
mailto:spydervr4@home.com]
>>
Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 1:16 PM
>> To:
stealth@starnet.net>> Subject:
Re: Rear wheel spins, front doesn't budge --
AWD???
>>
>>
>> If that is indeed true (verify by
having someone else look at the
>> car, while
>> you do it)
then you have a toasted center differential.
>> Unfortunately
this
>> means you need a new transmission. Before you jump to
any
>> conclusions, make
>> sure you are ABSOLUTELY
RIGHT. Under normal conditions, assuming all 4
>> wheels loose
traction for more than about half a second, you should have
>> both
rear wheels spinning and one front spinning (no front
LSD.)
>>
>> jeff
>> '95 Mitsubishi Spyder
VR-4
>> '90 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
>>
>>
>>
----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kevin Fanciulli"
<
nebula9@home.com>
>> To:
"Team3S" <
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>;
"Starnet Mailing List"
>> <
stealth@starnet.net>
>> Sent:
Friday, December 03, 1999 1:46 PM
>> Subject: Rear wheel spins, front
doesn't budge -- AWD???
>>
>>
>> > Hi
everyone. I've got a quick question regarding the AWD of
the
TT's...
>> > Having trouble trying to get up my driveway
today in 3 inches of snow,
I
>> > opened my door and noticed that
the rear wheel was spinning yet
>> the front
>> > didn't
move! I'm not an expert w/ the AWD makeup but I thought
it
would
>> > always drive the front wheels... how could they NOT
be driven? It's
all
>> > connected together via hardware,
right? I can't think of any component
>> > damage that would
cause this.
>> >
>> > I tried all different throttle
positions... turbos full boost and no
>> boost,
>> > clutch
slip and no clutch slip, etc... The front wheel would
>> not
move. I
>> > did hear a bit of a 'whining' (not very high
pitched) sound coming from
>> the
>> > engine when the rear
wheels began to spin -- might be related to my
>> >
problem...?
>> >
>> > If it matters at all, I have a
limited-slip rear differential (which is
>> > probably the only
reason I was able to finally get into my garage). My
>> >
clutch is also most likely going out, although it is not
>> 'slipping'
yet --
>> > just hard to engage.
>> >
>> >
Any help would be appreciated!
>> > -kevin fanciulli
>>
> '92 Stealth RT/TT
>> > 3Si #0375
>> >
>>
>
>>
>>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm>
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:29:35 -0700
From: "Kevin Fanciulli" <
nebula9@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
RE: Rear wheel spins, CONFIRMED - fronts don't spin.
This is the first
I've noticed of a drive problem. I bought the car the 2nd
of July this
year from a dealership, so I have no prior knowledge of how the
car was
handled. It is in very nice shape and the 60k service was done
on-time,
but I guess that doesn't account for everything :). It just may
have
been towed.....
I'm scheduled next Thursday for transmission
service. The tranny is covered
under my AutoNation extended warranty,
so if all goes well it'll just be the
$50 deductible. I'll let everyone
know what the culprit is.
Thanks for your help,
- -kevin
fanciulli
'92 Stealth RT/TT
3Si #0375
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: Darcy Gunnlaugson [
mailto:wce@telus.net]
> Sent: Friday,
December 03, 1999 2:15 PM
> To: Kevin Fanciulli; Team3S;
stealth@starnet.net> Subject: Re:
Team3S: RE: Rear wheel spins, CONFIRMED - fronts don't
>
spin.
>
>
> Hi Kevin;
>
> I think Matt has
diagnosed the viscous coupling as the likely culprit in
> this case.
Has it been towed in the past?? This could be the
> reason for
it
> now being a problem. AWD have to be trailered, never
towed.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:32:05 EST
From:
TrAmSoOtRu@aol.comSubject: Team3S: 93
3000gt rear Bumper on a 93' ES?
Hello,
Will this
work?
thanks..
Jeff
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 03 Dec 1999 16:57:34 CST
From: "Curt Gendron" <
curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Water Injection (semi-long)
Well, not entirely true.
The ECU sends signals to the BS in other
situations other than just
airflow. Read:
http://www.dsm.org/archives/1999/06/19990628.txt/30.html
and the links on
that page, if you really want to learn the nuts and the
bolts of our ECU to
BS situation.
later,
Curt
Sign up for the
Upper Midwest Gathering at:
http://www.mn3s.org/upper-midwest.html>Almost
true. But we all know that boost is calculated from the airflow and
>therefore not real. Now the ECU sees a specific boost then and starts to
>close the BS. This is because the system simply wants to keep the boost
at
>the stock level. Therefore it is closed long before we really hit our
>desired boost levels. Of course this changes when using a fuel
controller !
>
>Roger
>93'3000GT
TT
>
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