--
From:
owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
(Team3S Digest)
To:
stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.comSubject:
Team3S Digest V1 #348
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender:
owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.comErrors-To:
owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.comPrecedence:
bulk
Team3S Digest
Thursday, December 2 1999 Volume 01 :
Number
348
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:16:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Wise <
diranged@hearme.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: Boost madness / Sport-tour mode. -- the final story, i ,
think..
Well Colin was helpfull enough to come over today at lunch and
look at my
car.. Neither of us have a clue whats going on.. but I have a
theory now.
After riding in the car, Colin said it felt nearly the same as
his did
before the bleeder valve mod. What I think is that when I replaced
the
spark plugs, I never installed the upper IC pipe again so the turbo
was
bleeding to the air.. itsp ossible that the turbo just blew a bearing
or
something and isnt making the powr it was originally.. Since that day
it
hasnt felt right.. Thats my theory now.. now to convince Mitsu and my
GM
warentee to cover a new turbo.
- --Matt Wise
*NOC
Admin*
(650) 429 3751
On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Matt Wise
wrote:
> Is it possible to have the precats removed and testpipe type
things welded
> in their place? Will any smog station actually check for
that?
>
> --Matt Wise
> *NOC Admin*
> (650) 429
3751
>
> On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Vineet Singh wrote:
>
>
> About your boost control problems, If your exhaust is stuck in
"tour" mode,
> > I would change that FIRST. ALL your exhaust
comes out of a (approx) 2.5"
> > pipe. If it's in TOUR mode, then
it goes out at the end just before the
> > muffler through what looks
like a 1.5 - 2" pipe. That's a pretty hefty
> >
restriction.
> >
> > With that in the way, your stock
pre-cats (BIG restrictions IMO, and as
> > evidenced by my gtech-logs),
and the stock cat (not as restrictive, but
> > still in the way at the
track.) You may never reach full boost, as you have
> > to consider, if
you want 14psi from your turbo, you exhaust manifolds
> > (preturbo)
will see about 25-30 psi!, all that exhaust needs to go
> > SOMEWHERE,
and get out of the way fast, otherwise you just have too much
> >
"backpressure".
> >
> > This may not be your only
problem, but it sure would help to get rid of the
> > restrictions,
starting atleast with the silly sport/tour mode valve. (mine
> > is
stuck open btw :)
> >
> > Vineet Singh
> > Manuals
On CD -
http://manualcd.dsm.org>
> Club DSM A/T -
http://at.dsm.org
- "Never Lift To Shift!"
> >
> > (PS, please
snip the majority of the "reply to: posts" below your
messages,
> > I read the "digest version" of this list, so I
have to scroll about a mile
> > before seeing the next post, and my MS
intellimouse wheel is wearing out :)
> > Thanks!
> >
>
> _____
> > ORIGINAL MESSAGE
> > FYI, someone just
suggested that it could be an exhaust problem.. This
> > sounds very
plausable considering that i know my exhaust is stuck in tour
> >
mode.. Coudl that be it?
> >
> > - --Matt Wise
> >
*NOC Admin*
> > (650) 429 3751
> >
> > On Mon, 29
Nov 1999, Matt Wise wrote:
> >
> > > I decided to try
swapping the hoses going to the selanoid, and guess what,
> > > NO
CHANGE! Nothign changed... still .38-.40 boost.. So then I disconnected
>
> > the bottom hose from the selanoid (the one w/ the bleeder on it) and
guess
> > > what, instead of getting 1.5bar, I got a max of .5 bar..
definately felt
> > > like more power, but not the 1+ bar I would
expect.. so now I challenge
> > _____
> >
>
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:06:57 -0600
From: Matt Jannusch <
MAJ@BigCharts.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Re: Boost madness / Sport-tour mode. -- the final sto ry, i ,
think..
> I never installed the upper IC pipe again so the turbo
was
> bleeding to the air.. itsp ossible that the turbo just blew a
> bearing or something and isnt making the powr it was
>
originally.. Since that day it hasnt felt right.. Thats my
> theory now..
now to convince Mitsu and my GM
> warentee to cover a new turbo.
Hmm, no wonder why the aftermarket warranties cost so much these
days..... Why should the warranty cover owner-induced damage?
You
might want to try just taking off the air inlet pipe from the turbos and make
sure both spin okay. They don't normally go bad very often, even if you
drove it a little without the upper intercooler pipe on. I'd assume that
you didn't drive it very far since the car would run extremely poorly with that
large of a leak in the intake system.
If you aren't able to make boost
above 6-8psi, then look back in the list archives for some of my posts on boost
problems. There should be one or two that detail exactly what to look for
and check if you are having trouble, in the best order to do them to save time
and money.
Basically:
Clamps and connections on all intake hosts
and vacuum lines
Line from compressor bypass valve to throttle body
connection
Intercooler connections
Y-pipe
Verify that both turbos are
able to spin without much friction
I think my original post mentioned a
lot more than that, and in greater detail.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 01 Dec 1999 18:05:48 -0500
From: Michael Booker <
mrbook@gate.net>
Subject: Team3S: NA
news.
Hello fellow NA owners out there, I have some exciting news. I went
to
an exhaust fabricator today, and after looking at my car and a pic
of
the ATR downpipe (Thanks for the great pics, Roger) He said that
he
could fabricate something like a downpipe for the NA cars. I am going
to
have him do this, and he will be using my car for the R&D, and
If
anybody is interested, others can be made. I am thinking the whole
deal
will run about 250$ or so. Maybe a bit less. I know they aren't
headers,
but it IS a step in the right direction. Anybody interested, Email
me.
Matt
3/Si #311
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 1 Dec 1999 17:59:42 -0800
From: "Ryan Peterson" <
ryanp@crcwnet.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: NA news.
Question, what would be the point of a downpipe on a
NA? Isn't this
something that's turbo specific?
Ryan
-
-----Original Message-----
From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com[
mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of Michael Booker
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 3:06 PM
To:
mattrt@hotmail.comCc:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.comSubject:
Team3S: NA news.
Hello fellow NA owners out there, I have some
exciting news. I went to
an exhaust fabricator today, and after looking at my
car and a pic of
the ATR downpipe (Thanks for the great pics, Roger) He said
that he
could fabricate something like a downpipe for the NA cars. I am going
to
have him do this, and he will be using my car for the R&D, and
If
anybody is interested, others can be made. I am thinking the whole
deal
will run about 250$ or so. Maybe a bit less. I know they aren't
headers,
but it IS a step in the right direction. Anybody interested, Email
me.
Matt
3/Si #311
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFor
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:08:52 -0800
From: "Mohler, Jeff" <
jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: NA news.
A larger initial exhaust system *downpipe* on an NA
isnt a bad idea.
You want to be able to tune/manage backpressure for
specific power bands on the
N/A.
Its much easier to manage/control
that backpressure "range" in the exhaust
system with a
muffler/resonator/convertor once you get the initial bad designs
out of the
way.
:-----Original Message-----
:From: Ryan Peterson [
mailto:ryanp@crcwnet.com]
:Sent:
Wednesday, December 01, 1999 6:00 PM
:To: Stealth List
:Subject: RE:
Team3S: NA news.
:
:
:Question, what would be the point of a downpipe
on a NA? Isn't this
:something that's turbo
specific?
:
:Ryan
:
:-----Original Message-----
:From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com:[
mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of
:Michael Booker
:Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 3:06
PM
:To:
mattrt@hotmail.com:Cc:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com:Subject:
Team3S: NA news.
:
:
:Hello fellow NA owners out there, I have some
exciting news. I went to
:an exhaust fabricator today, and after looking at
my car and a pic of
:the ATR downpipe (Thanks for the great pics, Roger) He
said that he
:could fabricate something like a downpipe for the NA cars. I
:am going to
:have him do this, and he will be using my car for the
R&D, and If
:anybody is interested, others can be made. I am thinking the
whole deal
:will run about 250$ or so. Maybe a bit less. I know they
:aren't headers,
:but it IS a step in the right direction. Anybody
interested, Email me.
:
:Matt
:3/Si #311
:For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is
:
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm:
:For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
:
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm:
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 01 Dec 1999 21:17:35 -0500
From: Michael Booker <
mrbook@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: NA
news.
Mohler, Jeff wrote:
>
> A larger initial exhaust
system *downpipe* on an NA isnt a bad idea.
>
> You want to be able
to tune/manage backpressure for specific power bands on the
> N/A.
>
> Its much easier to manage/control that backpressure "range"
in the exhaust
> system with a muffler/resonator/convertor once you get
the initial bad designs
> out of the way.
Exactly. I'm going for the
most free flowing system that can be fit on
the car. It's going to look like
the ATR downpipe, and flow better than
the stock system. I will concede that
you may lose some low end torque,
but the trade-off for high end power is one
that I am willing to make. I
am waiting for somebody to do some R&D on
true headers, but apparently
nobody will. This is as close (for now) to
headers as the NA owners have
for now.
Announcement! If you have an
OBD-II car, this may not work for you. He
will be fabricating this one for 1
O2 sensor, and I believe the OBD-II
cars have 2. Correct me if i'm wrong.
Matt
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:24:56 -0800
From: "Mohler, Jeff" <
jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: NA news.
But, with proper TUNING of the convertor/muffler
parts, you can have the free-er
flowing DP, but control torque loss at low
RPMs as well.
:-----Original Message-----
:From: Michael Booker [
mailto:mrbook@gate.net]
:Sent: Wednesday,
December 01, 1999 6:18 PM
:To: Mohler, Jeff
:Cc:
'ryanp@crcwnet.com'; Stealth
List
:Subject: Re: Team3S: NA news.
:
:
:Mohler, Jeff
wrote:
:>
:> A larger initial exhaust system *downpipe* on an NA
isnt a bad idea.
:>
:> You want to be able to tune/manage
backpressure for specific
:power bands on the
:> N/A.
:>
:> Its much easier to manage/control that backpressure "range"
:in the exhaust
:> system with a muffler/resonator/convertor once you
get the
:initial bad designs
:> out of the way.
:Exactly. I'm going
for the most free flowing system that can be fit on
:the car. It's going to
look like the ATR downpipe, and flow better than
:the stock system. I will
concede that you may lose some low end torque,
:but the trade-off for high
end power is one that I am willing
:to make. I
:am waiting for somebody
to do some R&D on true headers, but apparently
:nobody will. This is as
close (for now) to headers as the NA
:owners have
:for now.
:Announcement! If you have an OBD-II car, this may not work for you.
He
:will be fabricating this one for 1 O2 sensor, and I believe the
OBD-II
:cars have 2. Correct me if i'm wrong.
:
:Matt
:
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:52:53 -0500
From: "Gil Gomes" <
gil@warpedweb.com>
Subject: Team3S: NA
news.
Okay... Now I'm REALLY confused. Could someone explain what a
downpipe
is on an NA? Is it the pipe coming from the exhaust manifold
and entering
the exhaust
system proper? and how would you TUNE a
converter/muffler part?
I have a '95 3KGT base and I'm aggresively
attempting to wring as much HP
as possible from it. The people in this
group are "motorheads" WAY beyond
my limited knowledge. I was
a motorhead in high school... back when arcane
entities like points,
carburetors, headers and full-race cams were all the
rage.
The times have
changed so much that this is like an entirely different
venue.
I have
a K&N FIPK and Borla installed and the resonator is firmly ensconced
in a
box in my garage... I'm aiming for a bigger throttle body next
spring.
If there's
anything else I can do in the intake/exhaust portion of
the setup, I'd like
to address
that before I start modified ECU
hunting. I'm already thinking about an
electric
supercharger like
the turbozet, and possibly a smooth hose between the MAF
and throttle body,
to decrease turbulence. I've even considered a small
hood
scoop just
above and before the FIPK...
I, like someone else replying to this
thread, assumed that a downpipe was
turbo
specific. Thanx for any
light you gents can shed....
- -G
>But, with proper TUNING
of the convertor/muffler parts, you can have the
free-er
>flowing DP,
but control torque loss at low RPMs as well.
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:05:12 -0800
From: "Mohler, Jeff" <
jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: NA news.
You "tune" backpressure by using different
sized/type mufflers, convertors,
resonators..etc.
Different amounts of
backpressure product Hp in different ways. The small parts
like that,
are relatively easy to swap in and out.
:-----Original
Message-----
:From: Gil Gomes [
mailto:gil@warpedweb.com]
:Sent:
Wednesday, December 01, 1999 6:53 PM
:To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com:Subject:
Team3S: NA news.
:
:
:Okay... Now I'm REALLY confused. Could
someone explain what a downpipe
:is on an NA? Is it the pipe coming
from the exhaust manifold
:and entering
:the exhaust
:system
proper? and how would you TUNE a converter/muffler part?
:
: I
have a '95 3KGT base and I'm aggresively attempting to
:wring as much
HP
:as possible from it. The people in this group are
:"motorheads" WAY beyond
:my limited knowledge. I was a
motorhead in high school...
:back when arcane
:entities like points,
carburetors, headers and full-race cams
:were all the
:rage.
:The
times have changed so much that this is like an entirely
different
:venue.
:
:I have a K&N FIPK and Borla installed and the
resonator is
:firmly ensconced
:in a box in my garage... I'm aiming
for a bigger throttle
:body next spring.
:If there's
:anything else I
can do in the intake/exhaust portion of the
:setup, I'd like
:to
address
:that before I start modified ECU hunting. I'm already
:thinking about an
:electric
:supercharger like the turbozet, and
possibly a smooth hose
:between the MAF
:and throttle body, to decrease
turbulence. I've even
:considered a small
:hood
:scoop just
above and before the FIPK...
:
:I, like someone else replying to this
thread, assumed that a
:downpipe was
:turbo
:specific. Thanx for
any light you gents can shed....
:
:-G
:
:
:>But, with proper
TUNING of the convertor/muffler parts, you
:can have
the
:free-er
:>flowing DP, but control torque loss at low RPMs as
well.
:
:
:
:For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
:
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm:
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 1 Dec 1999 20:12:31 -0800
From: "Jose Soriano" <
amahoser@linkline.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Water Injection
Anyone here have experience with the Spearco
Water Injection kit? I went
ahead and purchased one from Accelerated. What is
your feelings on it? Has
it proven valuable or should I spend the $$ and get
the ERL kit?I heard that
the pump was weak... is this true? What kind of
mixtures are you guys
finding to be appropiate? I heard that a 50/50 mix of
water and methanol is
the best for performance and straight water is best for
detonation control.
If you guys tell me that it doesn't work that good, I'll
buy the ERL kit and
use the Spearco for front brake water
misters!
Thanks
Jose Soriano
Amahoser@Linkline.com'91 Stealth
RT/TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:08:34 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Water Injection
The Spearco offering is about as economy as it gets for
commercial kits.
The ERL kit is top shelf and likely not worth the added
expense unless you
get the 3D mapped injector controller.
Another
alternative is much heavier duty and is offered by Bowling
Green
Customs. It is intended for use on Grand Nationals (you know,
those heavy
American V6 turbocharged cars that do 8s in the 1320'). It
has a durable
pump, a pressure check valve and a number of nozzle
choices. It should be
just the ticket for a hopped-up VR4.
I
have personally tried none of the above and have only direct experience
the
Spearco kit. It works, but it is crude compared to the ERL offering
and
light duty compared to the BG Customs kit.
I will likely either be
putting my own computer controlled system together
or using the one from BG
Customs. The ERL kit looks great, but I don't
really want to put out
the cash for the full deal.
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
>
> Anyone here have experience with the Spearco Water
Injection kit? I went
> ahead and purchased one from Accelerated. What is
your feelings on it? Has
> it proven valuable or should I spend the $$ and
get the ERL kit?I
> heard that
> the pump was weak... is this true?
What kind of mixtures are you guys
> finding to be appropiate? I heard
that a 50/50 mix of water and
> methanol is
> the best for
performance and straight water is best for
> detonation control.
>
If you guys tell me that it doesn't work that good, I'll buy the
> ERL kit
and
> use the Spearco for front brake water misters!
>
>
Thanks
> Jose Soriano
>
Amahoser@Linkline.com> '91
Stealth RT/TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 01 Dec 1999 23:07:44 -0600
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Water Injection
At 08:12 PM 12/1/99 -0800, Jose Soriano
wrote:
>Anyone here have experience with the Spearco Water Injection kit?
That's next on my list, once I get the boost controller on. My intent is
to
use it to prevent detonation when running for a long time under 1 bar
of
boost. On road courses, we run full boost for up to 45 seconds at a
time,
and I'm afraid of burning something up.
>If you guys tell me
that it doesn't work that good, I'll buy the ERL kit and
>use the Spearco
for front brake water misters!
I use the windshield washer pump for that.
Works great! Dirt cheap, too!
Rich/old poop/94 VR4
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:20:07 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Water Injection
I meant to comment on the water/alcohol
mixture.
Pure water has a much higher heat of evaporation than alcohol
or
alcohol/water mixture. From strictly a cooling standpoint, pure
water will
work best. Water doesn't combust though, at least not at
internal
combustion engine temperatures. At higher ratios of water in
the fuel/air
charge the water will begin to displace fuel thereby offsetting
some of the
benefeits. Water doesn't mix readily with fossils fuels,
and so it may also
tend to "stick together" causing uneven
combustion of the charge and
therefore less power. Alcohol mixes
readily with both water and fuel and
combusts easily. It is added to
the water to homogenize the mixture
resulting in more even combustion without
significantly sacrificing the
cooling effect.
This is how and why it
works although not all that use it understand why.
Some think alcohol is used
because it adds power to the detonated charge.
By itself, this is not the
case. Alcohol is not as efficient a fuel as
fossil fuels, at least not
in an engine designed to burn gasoline. In the
context of water
injection, alcohol *may* give back some of the power lost
due to excess water
in the charge.
The 50/50 mixture is not set in stone, and in fact is
likely too much
alcohol for moderate levels of water injection. 50/50
would be the maxium
you'd want to use. Experimenting with 30/70 on up
would be recommended.
This is just a guess, but I doubt you'd need 50/50
until you were running
the maximum feasible amount of water, which likely
wouldn't happen until you
were attempting 27-30+
psi.
Barry
> -----Original Message-----
>
> the
pump was weak... is this true? What kind of mixtures are you guys
>
finding to be appropiate? I heard that a 50/50 mix of water and
> methanol
is
> the best for performance and straight water is best for
>
detonation control.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 01 Dec 1999 22:49:48 -0800
From:
gil_lee@usa.netSubject: Team3S:
resonator...WOT?
can you someone explain:
the benefit of removing
the "resonator"?
also what does "WOT"
mean?
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 00:57:26 -0600
From: "Benson \"elmagoo\"
Russell" <
benson@2015.com>
Subject: Team3S:
resonator...WOT?
As I just found out, I believe that WOT means Wide Open
Throttle, or
'floored' in lamens terms :).
Latuh fuh
U,
Benson
benson@2015.com"-Do you ever have
second thoughts?
- -When do I ever have first thoughts?"
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 02 Dec 1999 00:55:43 -0600
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: resonator...WOT?
At 10:49 PM 12/1/99 -0800,
gil_lee@usa.net wrote:
>can you someone
explain: the benefit of removing the "resonator"?
>also what
does "WOT" mean?
>
I know one of them: WOT means "wide
open throttle."
Rich/old poop/94 VR4/workin' late
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 11:04:20 +0100
From: "R.G." <
robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Water Injection
> That's next on my list, once I get the boost
controller on. My intent is to
> use it to prevent detonation when running
for a long time under 1 bar of
> boost.
Huh ? Why do you want to
prevent detonation where no detonation is ? A long time under 1 bar of boost is
a long time on the save side... no need to prevent detonation !! The problem
starts at one bar and is getting worser i nthe higher boost region.
>
I meant to comment on the water/alcohol mixture.
Ok, Barry already
explained this and ther is only two reasons one needs alcohol :
1.
temperatures below 0°C to prevent the water from freezing
2. add a little
more stuff to be burnt as the stock fuel system is not able to deliver the
needed amount !
There is no other need for spraying a mixture into the
intake.
On the street, the detonation control works good and together
with a properly tuned in fuel system provides the best performance and
reliability. I had less good results on the dyno due to the fact that the water
got heated up by the radiator too much (wehre my tank is installed) and
therefore was already hot when sprayed in.
According to my 20-30
datalogger runs with and without WIS, I'm able to control knock up to 1.18 bars
with a bigger pump and the MAF kit installed. There are no lean readings and
only as much knock before the timing is retarded. Of course this is like running
at the edge of the knife because a little denser weather and boost peaks up to
1.2 bars and knock is going up to dangerous level.
The positive aspect no
one was talking about is the fact that a good WI system is also able to act as
an additional intercooling device. This is the big advantage of the expensive
ERL system as I'm using two nozzles with different diameters. the first is
installed in the IC pipe at the front head (wher it sucks heat up, very, very
bad design) and therefore cools down the temperature a lot. My temperature
measures reached 72°C and more at the intake without the WI and 39°C
with the system activated. This can directly be related to horsepower ! The
second nozzle is in the y-pipe and controls detonation and therefore is a little
bigger.
I'm using the top end ERL system with the 3D controller, but it
is not really necessary. My current curve of the WI starts at 4500rpm at 0,6
bars of boost. I call this pre-cooling before the hi-po starts to burn the tires
and as this is the typical start-to-go-over-stock boost. But before 1 bar I'm at
full spray. Therefore the System 1s would be enough. In my point of view, the
ERLs greatest (and most expensive) part is the electro magnetic fuel pump. The
thing provides me up to 7 bars (!) of water pressure that allows you to create a
really fine mist even trough the 0.9mm nozzle. The result is that the mixture
within the chanber is getting very even.
Barry already scratched the
drawbacks of a WIS. One of the most imprtant one is that each sytem should have
a check valve so the airstream cannot suck water out of the water line. Water
drops at low rpms can be very bad. The ERL system I have has a test circuit that
knows when the pressure falls below a specific level and the mist would be
degraded. An LED then lights up and the system is not operating anymore. It can
be coupled with a relay to disable high boost. In general said, large water
drops may kill the engine ! Another bad thing is that you may overcooling the
chamber. This is no choke as the miixture ma not be burnt fully due to the
exessive water in the chamber that finally steals away power. Lastly, one
problem our cars already have is getting worser with WI ... the ignition system.
The additional water prevents self ignition, i.e. detonation by cooling the
chamber down. But then, the electrical resistance of the mixture is getting
increased and the spark cannot tr!
avel that good anymore. A higher power
ignition can hadle this but nor ours :-( Therefore, the plug gap may even be
smaller and then the mixture may not be burnt good anymore due to
this.
The last problem is the fact why I haven't gone further with dyno
tuning and different nozzles as I do have some bad hesitation. The datalogger
has recorded NOTHING abnormal, no knock, no lean situation just nothing but the
hesitation is very noticeable and caused a strange curve on the dyno (5500 -
5700). I have not yet been able to go further with my testings as a good
solution is not in sight yet. At least till today there is nothing on the
aftermarket that may solve the problem as in my opinion, the coil pack is the
problem.
Ok, I've written a lot (a little bit more than the chatters) and
some may be confused and some not, so feel free to ask questions. I'd like to
summarize :
1. WIS works and prevents detonation, cleans the carbon out and
helps in additional intercooling
2. A fuel/alcohol mixture is only needed for
winter driving or when the fuel system is at its end
3. As always, the user
must take care of the possible problems as any mod gives you a
drawback.
If you are looking for a WI system then make sure it has a high
powered pump and output that is able to deblock nozzles (selfcleaning). Also use
a good boost-switch and find a place where the tank can be mounted without the
water heated up too much (I may use Ice-water in summer, hehe). The cost of the
systems divert a lot but as usual you will get what you paid for. The bigger WIS
for the GN is as expensive as the System 1 from ERL although I recommend the 1s
with the stronger pump to be able to drive two
nozzles.
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 11:40:20 +0100
From: "R.G." <
robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: NA news.
Calculating the air flow on a NA will show you that any
change in diameter will not help you. In my point of view, the stock downpipe
isn't good designed as the rear bank outlet goes into the front airstream in a
90° angle. But please always understand that there have been some ingeneers
that calculated the exhaust system and you are changing one parameter of the
calculation. How do you know if you loose some low end torque then ?
Not
to sound negative but the most freeflowing exhaust is not the best solution ! If
you do this, start from scratch and let one develop some good equal lenght
headers with diameter changes to increase the velocity and create a little
backpressure. Then the downpipe must be designed for another diameter change to
create the rest of the backpressure as well as for an equal lenght of both
connections to the headers. After this you can have a 2 1/2 inch piping that is
enough for a 3litre NAback to the muffler. This part should then be as free as
possible as well as the diameter can be a s large as you want but anything above
2 1/2 inch is overkill (and we all this term, hehe). You can then opt for the
cheaper Borla TT exhaust if it fits the rear where no diff is then
(dunno).
Regarding the intake, I have mathematically proven that an
electric charger will increase power and Bob saw some horses on the dyno too.
Now a nice smooth intake part will help to prevent any unneded turbolence but
will you see a gain of only this mod ? Probably not as the air filter is still a
bigger restriction.
Now what does a larger throttle body ? It is able to
feed more air into the engine. Bot how the heck to you want to increase the
amount of air sucked in by a naturally aspirated engine ? Yes, exactly, the
heads flow must be increased, the lift and duration of the valves changed and
the exhaust freed up.
As said, I do not see much gain from a DP on the NA
as there are no stupid bends and the airflow is much less than on the turbos.
But the music always sounds better with more players in the band and therefore
start with headers that are not yet existing. Smooting out the intake is always
a good idea and I support it although that you will only see a gain in
combination with an eRam or so. The larger TB is bogus unless the headwork has
been done. All this NA mods already cause me some headache on my 94'Z28. I have
a lot work done and only got simple 20 hp to the wheels. This included : K&N
intake, larger TB, 1.6 roller rockers, stiffer valve springs, hardened pushrods,
guideplates, titanium valve seats and locks, MAC headers, downpipe (called
y-pipe on the f-bodies), high flow cat, Borla Exhaust with y before muffler.
None of the mod gave more than 2-5 horses or even any hp but them team plays
together and you can only benefit of a larger TB if you increase the amount of
air to!
be sucked in as well as also this air must then be released
too.
It may really help if one can draw a good picture of the NA or
turbos (mine is a little but crappy) and we can identify the point where what
can be done. I'm relatively good on calculations and know where to test what so
we may find some solutions in the future.
Roger
93'3000GT TT
-
----- Original Message -----
From: Mohler, Jeff <
jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
To:
<
ryanp@crcwnet.com>; Stealth List
<
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Sent:
Thursday, December 02, 1999 3:08 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: NA
news.
> A larger initial exhaust system *downpipe* on an NA isnt a
bad idea.
>
> You want to be able to tune/manage backpressure for
specific power bands on the
> N/A.
>
> Its much easier
to manage/control that backpressure "range" in the exhaust
>
system with a muffler/resonator/convertor once you get the initial bad
designs
> out of the way.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 12:08:07 +0100
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?= <
vr4@bahnhof.se>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Water Injection
Do you think the ignition of the Electomotive TecII will
be "strong" enough?
As far as I know Electromotives ignition is the
best you can get. (and not
very expensive either)
/Mikael Akesson
http://www.3000gt.nu- ----- Original
Message -----
From: R.G. <
robby@freesurf.ch>
<BIG
SNIP>
Lastly, one problem our cars already have is getting worser with WI
... the
ignition system. The additional water prevents self ignition,
i.e.
detonation by cooling the chamber down. But then, the electrical
resistance
of the mixture is getting increased and the spark cannot travel
that good
anymore. A higher power ignition can hadle this but nor ours :-(
Therefore,
the plug gap may even be smaller and then the mixture may not be
burnt good
anymore due to this.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 02:12:21 -0800
From: "Jose Soriano" <
amahoser@linkline.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Water Injection
> I will likely either be putting my own
computer controlled system together
> or using the one from BG
Customs. The ERL kit looks great, but I don't
> really want to put
out the cash for the full deal.
>
>
I read somewhere of someone
using a "electric trailer brake" backwards so
that the more
acceleration you have, the more voltage it feeds to the water
pump... Sound
good? I might give it a try. Maybe I'll just purchase a
beefier water pump
and use the trailer brake method... with the Spearco
system... Might be a
good alternative to the computer......
Jose Soriano
Amahoser@Linkline.comFor
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 04:50:49 -0800
From: "Mohler, Jeff" <
jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Water Injection
:Huh ? Why do you want to prevent detonation
where no
:detonation is ? A long time under 1 bar of boost is a long
:time on the save side... no need to prevent detonation !! The
:problem
starts at one bar and is getting worser i nthe higher
:boost region.
-
---
You mean...<choke>..the DARK SIDE!?
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 02 Dec 1999 14:20:04 +0100
From: "R.G." <
robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Water Injection
> excerpt from "AutoSpeed" article
about water injection......
>
> Another entirely different way of
varying the water injection rate is to
> drive the pump with a trailer
electric brake controller. These devices are
> available from caravan and
similar suppliers and are designed to energise
> the electro-magnets that
are located in the brake assemblies of some
> caravans and trailers. One
class of controllers does this by measuring the
> braking force that the
car is undergoing and increasing its output voltage
> proportionally. I
envisage the controller reversed in orientation so that it
> measures
acceleration. If it was then connected to the water injection pump,
> the
harder the car accelerated, the higher would be the pump speed and so
>
the greater would be the addition of water into the intake air!
This is
high danger ! The guy who wrote the article may have never ever driven
a
turbo car. How heavy is your accelleration in 4th at 4500, WOT ?? Not
really
neck-slapping I'd say. But look at your boost ... it pegs to the top
!
And, you know, our cars are no trailers, LOL. Our brakes are activated
by fluid
pressure (i.e. hydraulic) and not with any low power electro magnet.
The guy was
talking about light-weight funny cars with solenoid brakes.
Indicating voltage
to the rotating assembly causes an increase in current
flow at the static parts.
This works simply like an e-motor with stator(s)
and a rotor. But hey, this is
for cars without hydraulic brakes and this is
way, way out of discussion for our
cars. Also note that the guy may wrote in
general about water injection as
cooling the intake always helps any car.
Forget this idea and go the right way.
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:02:36 +0100
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?= <
vr4@bahnhof.se>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Water Injection
Hi Roger,
It's not cheap but if you compare to
that you must have, VPC, GCC (or split
second) and TMO datalogger and
something like a MSD setup for the ignition,
to get the same funtionality
(and you still don't) then it's a bargain!
I paid 1604$ (incl 25% tax!)
for the Electromotive TecII, this includes all
sensors (map, clt, tp etc),
trigger wheel, magnetic pickup and coils. You
have to add injector connectors
and ignition cables. You also have to
manufacture a custom bracket for the
magnetic pickup. This includes full
fuel and ignition management and also the
PC based engine management
software with log function. (also the possiblity
to trigger water injection
from the knock sensor, that's cool)
You
know my route now...
/Mikael Akesson
http://www.3000gt.nu- ----- Original
Message -----
From: R.G. <
robby@freesurf.ch>
To: Mikael
Åkesson <
vr4@bahnhof.se>
Sent: Thursday, December
02, 1999 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection
> Do you
think the ignition of the Electomotive TecII will be
"strong"
enough?
To be tested ! I think yeas because the
stock coils are eliminated.
> As far as I know Electromotives ignition
is the best you can get. (and not
> very expensive either)
Cheap
???? What are your pricing for a simple ignition system ?? The last I
saw was
$1000.
Lemme know :)
Roger
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:31:44 EST
From:
Aso8@aol.comSubject: Team3S: Update - Nitrous
being added
OK. I never wanted to use Nitrous. Here is the logic that
changed my mind.
We estimate each 1/2 of the engine to be like running a 1.6L
x2=3.2L.
Using a large turbo capable of 600HP how long will it take a 1.6L 3
cyl eng
to spool it up? Answer - Forever. To compensate, we can rev to 6500
& drop
the clutch. I'd be lucky If I last 5 runs without breaking
something
expensive.
If we use Nitrous (just a small shot) we can slip
launch easy & get to
the rpm band fast. Then kill the Nitrous
& let the turbos take over.
For the sake of my drive train, Nitrous is
the kinder solution. Besides, my
engine is race built to handle it. Will my
2-Bolt main take all this? We
think YES.
But, we will be installing 6 EGT
gauges to keep an eye on every cylinder.
Who will have time to even look at
them is beyond me. A video camera for
review later will record the specifics
:)
Arty 91 VR-4-X X = Expermintal
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 02 Dec 1999 09:50:02 -0600
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Water Injection
>:Huh ? Why do you want to prevent
detonation where no
>:detonation is ? A long time under 1 bar of boost is
a long
>:time on the save side... no need to prevent detonation !! The
>:problem starts at one bar and is getting worser i nthe higher
>:boost region.
>---
>You mean...<choke>..the DARK
SIDE!?
An instructor at Road America told me he's seen many turbo cars
with boost
controllers go home on trailers. It seems that drag racers can get
away
with running high boost for 12 seconds or so, but running continuous
high
boost for 20-30 minutes at a time kills motors. I know they run flat out
on
the autobahns for long periods of time without blowing motors, but I
figger
it's better to be safe than sorry, and water injection seems like a
pretty
cheap engine insurance policy. Besides, maybe I'll get brave, put in
some
103 octane, and crank the boost to 18 psi.
Rich/old poop/94
VR4
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 08:01:20 -0800
From: "Darcy Gunnlaugson" <
wce@telus.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water
Injection
Hey Mikael;
Give us the low down on this Electromotive
Tec11?? I haven't heard of it,
and for the price you quote it has to
has good features...you 'generally'
get what you pay for. Can you
elaborate a bit more on it??
BEst
Darc
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Mikael Åkesson <
vr4@bahnhof.se>
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
<
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>;
R.G.
<
robby@freesurf.ch>
Date: Thursday,
December 02, 1999 6:02 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water
Injection
>Hi Roger,
>
>It's not cheap but if you
compare to that you must have, VPC, GCC (or split
>second) and TMO
datalogger and something like a MSD setup for the ignition,
>to get the
same funtionality (and you still don't) then it's a bargain!
>
>I
paid 1604$ (incl 25% tax!) for the Electromotive TecII, this includes
all
>sensors (map, clt, tp etc), trigger wheel, magnetic pickup and coils.
You
>have to add injector connectors and ignition cables. You also have
to
>manufacture a custom bracket for the magnetic pickup. This includes
full
>fuel and ignition management and also the PC based engine
management
>software with log function. (also the possiblity to trigger
water injection
>from the knock sensor, that's cool)
>
>You
know my route now...
>
>/Mikael Akesson
http://www.3000gt.nu>
>-----
Original Message -----
>From: R.G. <
robby@freesurf.ch>
>To: Mikael
Åkesson <
vr4@bahnhof.se>
>Sent: Thursday,
December 02, 1999 12:12 PM
>Subject: Re: Team3S: Water
Injection
>
>
>> Do you think the ignition of the
Electomotive TecII will be "strong"
>enough?
>
>To
be tested ! I think yeas because the stock coils are
eliminated.
>
>> As far as I know Electromotives ignition is the
best you can get. (and
not
>> very expensive
either)
>
>Cheap ???? What are your pricing for a simple ignition
system ?? The last I
>saw was $1000.
>
>Lemme know
:)
>Roger
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm>
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 02 Dec 1999 10:11:20 -0600
From: Jeff Crabtree <
wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Engine Preparations
Ok guys and gals,
It's gotten serious. I'm tired of not driving my car. I AM
going
to start pulling the engine out to rebuild and would like
some
recomendations about what I need to do it. If anybody has any
advice on
special tools, what to do first, what not to do first, who to
call(and
who NOT to call), etc., I'm all ears. I'm on a somewhat tight
budget,
so the sky is not the limit. I DO, however, want to do it the
right
way.
I plan on investing in a digital camera
so that I can take pictures
along the way. I figure if I get in a bind,
I can always refer back to
the pics to see how things were before I happened
to them.
I've got two weeks of vacation starting at
the end of June. I'm
setting that as my deadline to have this project
finished. I'm driving
to Florida and I want to take the Stealth, not
the Jeep! I'll be
counting on you guys alot.
Please help.
-
--
- -Jeff Crabtree
'91 Stealth R/T TT(3/SI
#499)
'93 Wrangler
4.0L
Sport
St. Louis, MO
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:44:30 +0100
From: "R.G." <
robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Update - Nitrous being added
Arty, one calculation bogus
:
> Using a large turbo capable of 600HP how long will it take a 1.6L
3 cyl eng
> to spool it up? Answer - Forever.
You only need a
turbo that produces 300hp (a little more of course), because you have two of
them ! Only half of the air is need per turbo. Calculate this and you'll see
that the turbo is only a 15g that is capable of the desired air.
> If
we use Nitrous (just a small shot) we can slip launch easy & get to
>
the rpm band fast. Then kill the Nitrous & let the turbos take
over.
> For the sake of my drive train, Nitrous is the kinder
solution.
And the bang where the Nitrous kicks in ? This is a extreme
kick-in (at least at the Camaro I've driven) and is as harmful as dumping the
clutch.
> Besides, my engine is race built to handle it. Will my
2-Bolt main take all this? We
> think YES.
Depending on the
pressure you run on I belive it can withstand the power. BUT, you know torque is
the important key factor for this. The more I'd ask is if the head gaskets are
withstanding this. But I think a 50hp shot should be ok.
> But, we
will be installing 6 EGT gauges to keep an eye on every cylinder.
> Who
will have time to even look at them is beyond me. A video camera for
>
review later will record the specifics :)
Arty, think again about this
(or was this only for fun ??) Each EGT probe has a diameter and even placing one
before the turbo seems to steel away from the exhaust diameter. Now one isn't
really a problem there but it will become with one in each header pipe. here the
simple velocitiy enhancement around the probe doesn't work well anymore. And
finaly, you simply do not have the place for them. I think it would make more
sense to buy a datalogger as this is cheaper and you will save video-tapes for
coyote-cartoons :)
> Arty 91 VR-4-X X =
Expermintal
Better : content of the X-files (Arghhhhh, Scully is driving
my car....)
Roger
93'300000000 GT TTTTTTT (mod : keyboard
error)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 18:05:48 +0100
From: "R.G." <
robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Water Injection
> An instructor at Road America told me he's
seen many turbo cars with boost
> controllers go home on
trailers.
<snip>
Yes, sure, WI helps as a bigger intercooler does ,
larger turbos do and more fuel does.
You wrote :
> My intent is to
use it to prevent detonation when running for a long time
> under 1 bar of
boost.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hääääää ??? WI is used
to prevent detonation above the danger line, above 1 bar of boost. I think you
meant runnign a long time with boost of 1 bars. On the dyno this is what we've
done and therefore our measures are always a worst case. Best case is simply
said, walking on the dark side with sunglasses.
> it's better to be
safe than sorry, and water injection seems like a pretty
> cheap engine
insurance policy. Besides, maybe I'll get brave, put in some
> 103 octane,
and crank the boost to 18 psi.
Ah, ok, but why do you still run a bleeder
or plopp-valve and no datalogger to see dangerous signs ? These are the first
insurance policies you should take care of. Water injection comes pretty much at
the end of the line and without a logger and EGT it's hard to tune it in
correctly !
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 11:19:04 -0600
From: S J Cowan <
sjc0u812@juno.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Off Topic -- Signing Off List
Hey folks:
Strictly in the FWIW
category, I'll be asking Rich to sign me off the
list this afternoon.
Should be back up and running Monday morning. If
anyone's looking
for me, please e-mail me privately, and I'll get back
with you whence I
return.
And now back to our regularly scheduled program, already in
progress...
Best
regards,
SJ
___________________________________________________________________
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the Internet just the way you want it.
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Date:
Thu, 02 Dec 1999 11:12:28 -0600
From: Merritt <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Water Injection
>
>> it's better to be safe than
sorry, and water injection seems like a pretty
>> cheap engine
insurance policy. Besides, maybe I'll get brave, put in some
>> 103
octane, and crank the boost to 18 psi.
>
>Ah, ok, but why do you
still run a bleeder or plopp-valve and no
datalogger to see dangerous signs ?
These are the first insurance policies
you should take care of. Water
injection comes pretty much at the end of
the line and without a logger and
EGT it's hard to tune it in correctly !
I just want to run 15 psi on a
road course without burning out the rings,
so I figgered that water injection
would give me a safety margin. I'm not
trying to tune anything for maximum
output. I'll do all that data logger
and electronic boost control stuff
later. Anything wrong with this
approach?
Rich
>
>Roger
>93'3000GT
TT
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm>
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 02 Dec 1999 12:25:56 -0500
From: "J. Stephen Gula" <
loco3kgt@creepingdeath.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Update - Nitrous being added
Personally I haven't seen
anything wrong with a 50-100hp shot of Nitrous. Jack T ran a 50hp shot when he
did his 10 second run (that still stands as #1 in the Fastest list if I'm not
mistaken) ran back in June of 97. The stats show an increase approx .5 seconds
quicker than his 11.303 (his fastest w/o Nitrous) and .15 of it was in the first
60 feet. As long as the Nitrous shot isn't excessive (most Camaros run higher
than100hp shots, I think 50hp is enough for us) it won't hurt anything. But
that's my humble
non-motorhead only speaking from past experiences (of
others) opinion. So i'm not exactly the best guy to listen to. But are large
turbos fully spun when most of you quicker guys have the clutch already out
(even when slipped and not dumped)? Personally I think a lil nitrous between 10
and 35mph is a good thing (maybe only for whiplash tho. heheh)..
-
--Steve "Loco3KGT" Gula
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 02 Dec 1999 09:40:19 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <
Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Water Injection
> According to my 20-30 datalogger runs
with and without WIS, I'm able to
> control knock up to 1.18 bars with a
bigger pump and the MAF kit installed.
> There are no lean readings and
only as much knock before the timing is
> retarded. Of course this is
like running at the edge of the knife because
> a little denser weather
and boost peaks up to 1.2 bars and knock is going
> up to dangerous
level.
What is up with this? 1.18 is not even 17 psi! I
thought the benefits of water
injection were equivalent to fuel octane of
over 140 or so. I hoped/expected
with water injection that we could
avoid knock up to 23-25 psi. Why is knock
still occuring at such a low
psi with WI? Is there still more WI tuning to
perform?
-
-----
I'm suprised you stopped me officer, Dunkin Donuts has a 3 for 1
special!
Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San
Diego
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 12:42:45 EST
From:
Aso8@aol.comSubject: Re: Team3S: Update -
Nitrous being added
Roger, check again...My CFM's have been dramatically
increased.
We are using 2 (two) 600Hp turbos. 2 (two) Throttle Bodies
2
front mounted intercoolers - 2 separate exhausts - 2 of everything :)
Maybe
this car needs a copilot too?
Arty
In a message dated 12/2/99 9:13:35
AM Pacific Standard Time,
robby@freesurf.ch writes:
<<
ubj: Re: Team3S: Update - Nitrous being added
Date: 12/2/99
9:13:35 AM Pacific Standard Time
From:
robby@freesurf.ch
(R.G.)
Sender:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.comTo:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.comArty,
one calculation bogus :
> Using a large turbo capable of 600HP how
long will it take a 1.6L 3 cyl
eng
> to spool it up? Answer -
Forever.
You only need a turbo that produces 300hp (a little more of
course), because
you have two of them ! Only half of the air is need per
turbo. Calculate this
and you'll see that the turbo is only a 15g that is
capable of the desired
air.
>>
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 12:28:02 -0600
From: "Landis, Michael" <
MLandis@casham.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Engine Preparations (long post)
Hi Jeff - I overhauled my NA
engine this summer due to a seized water pump
(shredded timing belt, bent
valves, long, sad tale...). While it wasn't
easy, it wasn't as daunting
as I first thought it would be. My neighbor,
Jim, is a motorhead, and
offered to help me tackle the job. We did it over
three week-ends with
a few week-nights in between, for a little under $1500
- - most of that for
the overhaul kit (pistons, rings, gaskets) and machine
work. The rest
was for miscellaneous parts and supplies.
Your TT will obviously have
some additional plumbing to deal with, and I
can't offer any insight
there. However, if I had mine to do over again, I'd
do a better job of
labeling and bagging the various nuts and bolts. We
mistakenly used
course-threaded bolts for the block-to-transaxle attachment
and stripped the
holes. Ooops. Now we know better, but the damage is done.
Most of
the time you can figure out what goes where - kind of like a jigsaw
puzzle -
but there can be surprises using this method. Next time I'll take
more
care keeping track of what goes where. I video-taped the
engine
compartment - especially wiring and vacuum line routing. This
came in
handy, but some additional notes or photos might have helped some
more.
Once we got started, we were too busy to stop and take more notes,
etc. And
of course, the quicker you can start and finish the job, the
better. We
stretched it out over almost four weeks, and spent some time
at the end
asking each other "do you remember where this
goes?"
A couple of folks advised me to NOT have the crank
turned. Seems Mitsu uses
a nitride coating on the journals that goes
away if you turn it. Some folks
have spun bearings within a few hundred
miles after an overhaul due to this.
Of course the official Mitsu dealership
position is to replace the crank,
not have it turned. But this is also
the official Chevy, Ford, Chrysler,
Dodge, fill-in-the-blank-manufacturer,
dealership position when it comes to
crankshaft problems - replace it, don't
fix it.
Nitriding puts a very thin (few thousandths), very hard
layer on the
journals. However, it is not entirely uniform. Thus
the use of
"hand-select" journal bearings on our cars. (While
nitriding is not common
among domestic manufacturers, neither is it
"rare". I found a local
heat-treating shop that does it, and
the guy was kind enough to educate me a
little. Educate yourself a
little in this area, too. Search the web -
there's info out
there...) Take great care noting which bearings came from
which
journals in case you don't need to turn your crank and want to reuse
the
bearings. My car had 112K miles on it and was showing a
little
bearing/journal wear. Plus it looked like the bearings may have
gotten
hammered some when the pistons and valves dinged each other.
After
consulting with my machinist (who checked his sources), and discussing
it
with Jim, we elected to grind the journals and put in standard
oversized
bearings anyway. I did NOT have the crank nitrided afterwards
(it's a few
hundred bucks). I've got about 2,500 miles on the freshened
up engine so
far, with no problems, and the car runs like a champ. But
remember, my
car's a NA, not turbo. Some of the other guys (and gals)
on the list may
have additional insight in this area. Find a good
machine shop, and ask 'em
if they've done any of these engines before.
(My machinist had done several
of the mini-van V-6's, which use the same
block, but that's about where the
similarities end. However, he had
about 40 years experience (yeah - he's
OLD), and Jim had used him for years
for building race motors, etc.) Peg
'em about their knowledge of the
crankshaft treatment, etc. Ask 'em what
your options are if you spin a
bearing a month down the road (warrantee).
As far as tools and stuff is
concerned, I wouldn't even get started without
the overhaul manual.
Note that this is a different manual than the standard
shop manual.
I've got the standard shop manual and electrical manual, and
ordered the CD
ROM manual from Vineet Singh (see
http://manualcd.dsm.org<
http://manualcd.dsm.org> )
which included the overhaul manual on it. It
was a lifesaver.
Otherwise, I was able to get by without any of the special
tools (which is
good, since my local dealer wouldn't/couldn't sell them to
me
anyway...).
I'll bare my soul a little, and highlight the stupid
shade-tree mechanic
mistakes we made along the way, in the hope that it may
save you a couple of
hundred bucks. Overall, most of the mistakes we
made were in getting the
engine out and back in...
First off, we
cracked the flange on the main crankshaft pulley (harmonic
dampener on
domestic V-8s...) when we pulled the engine out of the bay. The
book
says to remove the transaxle. We just tried to shift it back out of
the
way towards the front passenger tire. Nice try, but not enough
room.
I'm sure we hit the pulley against the fender-well or strut tower
or
something else when trying to angle the engine enough to get it off of
the
transaxle and out of the engine bay. Then we had to go ahead and
remove the
axles in order to get the transaxle out of the way enough for
reassembly.
All in all, our "shortcut" cost us more time jacking
with it. Just remove
the transaxle (and axles?) and anything else the
books says, and get them
out of your way. It'll save you time and
money. The pulley costs around
$220 new from the dealer. I got
one from M&R Recycling for $125.
Unfortunately, they sent me one off of
an Eclipse the first time around, so
I had to wait another three or four days
for the right part to show up.
Bummer.
If that wasn't enough, I
cracked the flange on the crankshaft sprocket
trying to get it off - about a
$50 dollar mistake. To avoid this, remove
all of the bolts holding the
front pump (oil pump) in place, then gently
(gently) pry the front pump off
of the front face of the block. This should
slide the sprocket off the
crank snout. I tried putting a screwdriver blade
between the sprocket
and front pump and prying it off directly, and it
chipped the flange.
Bad move. Again, others on the list may have other
tricks.
And
lastly, we broke the tab off of the power steering pump sensor -
again,
probably hit it against something when removing the engine. This
part was
only about $15, but it took me days to get a Dodge dealer to
identify it
("What the hell you talking about - a power steering pump
sensor? What's it
for? I don't think I got none of them...") and
special order it. Another
four days...
I took a lot of photos
but haven't had time to get them up on my web-site
yet. I keep saying
I'm going to do that soon, but I'm trying to wrap up a
home remodeling
project before year-end, so I'm pretty busy. If I get a
chance, I'll do
that in the next couple of weeks and post a note to the
list.
Otherwise, I wish you luck. If you can, find a buddy who knows
more
than you do. But then again, about halfway through my overhaul,
Jim said
"You know, after I do one more of these, that'll be two that
I've done..."
Hmmmmm. "Thanks for the confidence builder,
Jim."
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff
Crabtree [
SMTP:wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com]
Sent:
Thursday, December 02, 1999 10:11 AM
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.comSubject:
Team3S: Engine Preparations
Ok guys and gals,
It's gotten serious. I'm tired of not driving my car. I
AM
going
to start pulling the engine out to rebuild and would like
some
recomendations about what I need to do it. If anybody has
any
advice on
special tools, what to do first, what not to do first, who
to
call(and
who NOT to call), etc., I'm all ears. I'm on a somewhat
tight
budget,
so the sky is not the limit. I DO, however, want to do
it the right
way.
I plan on investing in a digital
camera so that I can take
pictures
along the way. I figure if I get
in a bind, I can always refer back
to
the pics to see how things were
before I happened to them.
I've got two weeks of
vacation starting at the end of June. I'm
setting that as my deadline
to have this project finished. I'm
driving
to Florida and I want to
take the Stealth, not the Jeep! I'll be
counting on you guys
alot.
Please help.
--
-Jeff Crabtree
'91
Stealth R/T TT(3/SI
#499)
'93 Wrangler
4.0L
Sport
St. Louis, MO
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFor
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 20:22:38 +0100
From: "R.G." <
robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Update - Nitrous being added
> Roger, check again...My CFM's
have been dramatically increased.
> We are using 2 (two) 600Hp turbos. 2
(two) Throttle Bodies
> 2 front mounted intercoolers - 2 separate exhausts
- 2 of everything :)
> Maybe this car needs a copilot too?
Gulp,
maybe we need a second list for monsters, Godzillas and other
earth-killing
stuff, hahaha. What about, ahem .. the tranny and drivetrain ?
Do you think
about converting to rear-wheel drive ?
Ok, two TB, etc. but is the intake
plenum able to handle this or is it
totally redesigned too
?
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 20:32:24 +0100
From: "R.G." <
robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Water Injection
> I just want to run 15 psi on a road course
without burning out the rings,
> so I figgered that water injection would
give me a safety margin. I'm not
> trying to tune anything for maximum
output. I'll do all that data logger
> and electronic boost control stuff
later. Anything wrong with this
approach?
Then you can simply use the
cheapest system around where you don't have to
tune it in in any way. Works
ok as intercooling add-on (this is what you
want for the circle
tracks)
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 20:35:14 +0100
From: "R.G." <
robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Water Injection
> What is up with this? 1.18 is not even
17 psi! I thought the benefits of
water
> injection were
equivalent to fuel octane of over 140 or so. I
hoped/expected
>
with water injection that we could avoid knock up to 23-25 psi. Why
is
knock
> still occuring at such a low psi with WI? Is there
still more WI tuning
to
> perform?
There is still more tuning
necessary as the ignition is the bottleneck at
the moment. But I may ask you
where to get the needed fuel from to run more
than 1.2 bars ?? No chance with
the stock injectors ! You can cut fuel
pressure drops quickly and the
injectors are still maxxed out !
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:06:01 EST
From:
Aso8@aol.comSubject: Re: Team3S: Update -
Nitrous being added
Roger, its all totally custom as far as the plumbing
& manifold etc.
No way this thing works with anything even close to
stock. I can't even close
the stock hood. On the rear wheel drive, it would
be faster but I'd be
disqualified from running the Quick 8 if I go rear wheel
drive.
Then I may as well go tube frame too.
If I need any more HP I'll
get a sticker. :)
Guys, this is exciting. I can't wait to run it. Everybody
want to know what
it
costs. Me too. I've been afraid to figure it out. I
really don't know
and don't want to know. One day I'll do it. Not
now.
Arty
In a message dated 12/2/99 11:25:32 AM Pacific Standard
Time,
robby@freesurf.ch
writes:
<< Roger, check again...My CFM's have been
dramatically increased.
> We are using 2 (two) 600Hp turbos. 2 (two)
Throttle Bodies
> 2 front mounted intercoolers - 2 separate exhausts - 2
of everything :)
> Maybe this car needs a copilot too?
Gulp, maybe
we need a second list for monsters, Godzillas and other
earth-killing stuff,
hahaha. What about, ahem .. the tranny and drivetrain ?
Do you think about
converting to rear-wheel drive ?
Ok, two TB, etc. but is the intake
plenum able to handle this or is it
totally redesigned too
?
Roger
93'3000GT TT
>>
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 02 Dec 1999 12:43:57 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <
Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Water Injection
> > What is up with this? 1.18 is
not even 17 psi! I thought the benefits of
> water
> >
injection were equivalent to fuel octane of over 140 or so. I
>
hoped/expected
> > with water injection that we could avoid knock up to
23-25 psi. Why is
> knock
> > still occuring at such a low
psi with WI? Is there still more WI tuning
> to
> >
perform?
>
> There is still more tuning necessary as the ignition
is the bottleneck at
> the moment. But I may ask you where to get the
needed fuel from to run more
> than 1.2 bars ?? No chance with the stock
injectors ! You can cut fuel
> pressure drops quickly and the injectors
are still maxxed out !
If I have an upgraded fuel system with 720 cc
injectors and dump fuel in, will I
still see knock at 17 psi with WI?
18 psi?
Is an ignition upgrade going to be the cure-all for the early
knock problem?
My current mid-life crisis dream is not as ambitious as
Arty's or numerous
others. I'd just like to upgrade my '91 VR4 to a '95
with ECS and OBDII, get an
OBDII datalogger for tuning, install 15G's,
Split-Second system, 720cc
injectors, etc (BC, fuel pump, pistons &
rings) (not necessarily in that order
;)). I was hoping to install an
ERL WI and run 23 psi with no knock! Is my
dream
unrealistic?
Your data is showing knock starting at 17 psi with a
non-lean condition. This
is very disappointing since WI is supposed to
be equivalent to 140+ octane
fuel. What should max boost be with 140
octane fuel?
Others have reported running 20+ psi. Folks are
upgrading to turbos greater
than 15G's. Pete Palmara is installing the
monster Greddy turbos, others have
installed GT-Pro's hybrids,
etc. What's going on here? Are folks just
installing these
monster turbos, running high boost, and ignoring the
fact/probability that
they are detonating? Do they just not care that they
knock since they
only boost for 1320 feet? Is there another way to
eliminate
knock? I'm depressed, I'm going to lunch now :).
-
--
I'm surprised you stopped me officer, Dunkin Donuts has a 3 for 1
special!
Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San
Diego
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 2 Dec 1999 15:41:46 -0600
From: "Landis, Michael" <
MLandis@casham.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Update - Nitrous being added
So did I miss something here?
Where are the pictures, man?!?!?! Show me
da
beast!
-----Original Message-----
From:
Aso8@aol.com [
SMTP:Aso8@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday,
December 02, 1999 2:06 PM
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.comCc:
Aso8@aol.comSubject: Re: Team3S: Update -
Nitrous being added
Roger, its all totally custom as far as the plumbing
& manifold etc.
No way this thing works with anything even close to
stock. I can't
even close
the stock hood. On the rear wheel drive, it
would be faster but I'd
be
disqualified from running the Quick 8 if I go
rear wheel drive.
Then I may as well go tube frame too.
If I need any
more HP I'll get a sticker. :)
Guys, this is exciting. I can't wait to run
it. Everybody want to
know what
it
costs. Me too. I've been afraid to
figure it out. I really don't
know
and don't want to know. One day I'll
do it. Not now.
Arty
In a message dated 12/2/99 11:25:32 AM
Pacific Standard Time,
robby@freesurf.ch
writes:
<< Roger, check again...My CFM's have been
dramatically increased.
> We are using 2 (two) 600Hp turbos. 2 (two)
Throttle Bodies
> 2 front mounted intercoolers - 2 separate exhausts - 2
of
everything :)
> Maybe this car needs a copilot too?
Gulp,
maybe we need a second list for monsters, Godzillas and other
earth-killing
stuff, hahaha. What about, ahem .. the tranny and
drivetrain ?
Do you
think about converting to rear-wheel drive ?
Ok, two TB, etc. but is the
intake plenum able to handle this or is
it
totally redesigned too
?
Roger
93'3000GT TT
>>
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFor
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
End
of Team3S Digest V1 #348
****************************
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