--

From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com (Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S Digest V1 #342
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
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Precedence: bulk


Team3S Digest        Monday, November 22 1999        Volume 01 : Number 342




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:11:40 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Fuel Pump.

> 190l/hr, I think I have a different reading, I am just timing 1 minute and
> seeing how much fuel comes out. I got 800ml X 60 =  48 l/hr....
> my friends car runs 72 l/hr.

On what pressure ? What voltage to the pump ? Idle ??

> Man these cars are REALLY hard to get running right..

Well, depends on the tools :)

> Is it possible to run 20psi I do we need to get alot cooler somehow?

You have to do a lot more for reliable 20psi. First, replace the turbos ! But
all this is pricey.

> I need to get this going it is really starting to annoy me, I have spent all
> this money and not getting the performance I want.

I cannot remember what money you spent on what mods. Get a good filter, bleeder
valve, used 440cc injectors and a used AFC, gut the precats, get a high flow cat
and a custom exhaust and you're in the low 12s with 17/18psi boost. All this
stuff is only about $800 maximum.

Roger
93'3000GT TT


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:19:59 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Few engine building questions

> Pistons?  At what boost / horsepower level are upgraded forged pistons
> recommended (JE pistons for example)?

JE forged pistons are the cheapest ones but I'd choose them too. There are
others around that also have one or two more grooves for the higehr bosot. I'd
go for them after 18psi of boost for reliability. Also get TotalSeals rings.

> I do have the necessary fuel upgrades and a datalogger to monitor knock
> levels. Can I expect to safely run mid 11's with stock pistons ?

Yes, if you run race fuel at the track. BTW, have you solved your O2 reading
problem ?

> Head gaskets?  Has anyone tried using two head gaskets per bank to
> better seal the combustion chamber.

This will lower the compression ratio below 8.0:1. The heads are very well done
and I don't see a gain of this and I never heard of one where the gasket blew
off.

> Ball bearing 15G's?  I may need to rebuild my rear bank 15G turbo.
> Instead of rebuilding it though, should I use this money and put it
> towards a pair of new ball bearing units?  Do the ball bearing turbo's
> really outperform the bushing units?

Well, this highly depends on the quality of the bearings. I have no experience
and even the 368s I have ar bushing types. As far as I understand the bearing
type have less friction and generate less ehat due to less force to the shaft.
But I doubt that on our twin turbo system two bearing turbos can make a big
difference to the performance. Maybe life is increased and regardign the rear
Turbo this is maybe a good idea ;-)

Roger
93'3000GT TT


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:35:17 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: plugs then boost controller?

> I'm planning on changing my plugs in the next week or two, and I wondered
> how much power I might lose by gapping them to .034 even though I don't
> have a boost controller yet.

Mostly loss in tourque but you'll not notice it. You'll probably see a drop
in mileage but also not a lot.

> also, I'm trying to decide what bc I want..  from everything I've read
> here and starnet, the Apexi AVC-R seems to be a universal favorite..  I
> know it's been discussed several times lately, but does anyone have
> anything bad to say about this unit?

It lacks of rpm AND IDC connection at the same time, is not that easy to set
up than others, has a big display that is not easy to fit somewhere, is more
expensive than others and has the wrong color that doesn't fit our interiour
lighting.

> oh, and I will be getting a boost gauge as well in case you were going
> to suggest that..  :)

The most are good enough. I haven't seen a bad one, although the AutoMeter
are a little too cheap IMHO.

Roger
93'3000GT TT


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:39:03 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brakes

> Roger may be on to something. It's so hard to push all four pistons back
> into the calipers, I can see that an incompetent shop might very well
leave
> out the plates to gain just a bit more clearance so they can slip the new
> pads in. They are thin steel plates, shaped the same as the pads, and go
> between the pads and the pistons. There can be one or two per side.

Yes, you are absolutely right ! There are two plates on each pad, one is
plain while the other is slotted. When checkiong the brakes, they could
already be covered from a lot dust and therefore the plates are not well
recognizable. Follow the good advices given and you should be fine.

Good luck,
Roger
93'3000GT TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:11:40 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Fuel Pump.

> 190l/hr, I think I have a different reading, I am just timing 1 minute and
> seeing how much fuel comes out. I got 800ml X 60 =  48 l/hr....
> my friends car runs 72 l/hr.

On what pressure ? What voltage to the pump ? Idle ??

> Man these cars are REALLY hard to get running right..

Well, depends on the tools :)

> Is it possible to run 20psi I do we need to get alot cooler somehow?

You have to do a lot more for reliable 20psi. First, replace the turbos ! But
all this is pricey.

> I need to get this going it is really starting to annoy me, I have spent all
> this money and not getting the performance I want.

I cannot remember what money you spent on what mods. Get a good filter, bleeder
valve, used 440cc injectors and a used AFC, gut the precats, get a high flow cat
and a custom exhaust and you're in the low 12s with 17/18psi boost. All this
stuff is only about $800 maximum.

Roger
93'3000GT TT


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:19:59 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Few engine building questions

> Pistons?  At what boost / horsepower level are upgraded forged pistons
> recommended (JE pistons for example)?

JE forged pistons are the cheapest ones but I'd choose them too. There are
others around that also have one or two more grooves for the higehr bosot. I'd
go for them after 18psi of boost for reliability. Also get TotalSeals rings.

> I do have the necessary fuel upgrades and a datalogger to monitor knock
> levels. Can I expect to safely run mid 11's with stock pistons ?

Yes, if you run race fuel at the track. BTW, have you solved your O2 reading
problem ?

> Head gaskets?  Has anyone tried using two head gaskets per bank to
> better seal the combustion chamber.

This will lower the compression ratio below 8.0:1. The heads are very well done
and I don't see a gain of this and I never heard of one where the gasket blew
off.

> Ball bearing 15G's?  I may need to rebuild my rear bank 15G turbo.
> Instead of rebuilding it though, should I use this money and put it
> towards a pair of new ball bearing units?  Do the ball bearing turbo's
> really outperform the bushing units?

Well, this highly depends on the quality of the bearings. I have no experience
and even the 368s I have ar bushing types. As far as I understand the bearing
type have less friction and generate less ehat due to less force to the shaft.
But I doubt that on our twin turbo system two bearing turbos can make a big
difference to the performance. Maybe life is increased and regardign the rear
Turbo this is maybe a good idea ;-)

Roger
93'3000GT TT


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 14:10:07 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Exceeding the Redline

> Maybe it doesn't make any difference for this application, but the
> SAVC-R monitors boost AFTER the throttle body, teeing off of the FPR
> line coming from the rear of the plenum.  I guess the only difference
> would be measuring vacuum, which is a non-issue for a manual BC.

The line that comes out on the front of the plenum is the same as on the back
but a little larger for the BPV line. It has the same function and works as good
as the other line at the back.

The Redline BC is nothing else than a Halmann style BC or better said "ball
spring valve". As Jim already said, installation is very easy but I'm sure and
EBC gives you more possiblities on the track.

Roger
93'3000GT TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:33:55 +1300
From: "B Collett" <hcollett@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Fuel Pump.

- -----Original Message-----
From: R.G. <robby@swissonline.ch>
To: Team 3S Tech List <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Monday, 22 November 1999 01:40
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Fuel Pump.


>> 190l/hr, I think I have a different reading, I am just timing 1 minute
and
>> seeing how much fuel comes out. I got 800ml X 60 =  48 l/hr....
>> my friends car runs 72 l/hr.
>
>On what pressure ? What voltage to the pump ? Idle ??

Not sure on the pressure yet, we are trying that later today.
Do you know if it is a two speed pump?
Not sure on the voltage, standard 3000GT pump?
I was on idle when I did that test.

>
>> Man these cars are REALLY hard to get running right..
>
>Well, depends on the tools :)
>
>> Is it possible to run 20psi I do we need to get alot cooler somehow?
>
>You have to do a lot more for reliable 20psi. First, replace the turbos !
But
>all this is pricey.
>
>> I need to get this going it is really starting to annoy me, I have spent
all
>> this money and not getting the performance I want.
>
>I cannot remember what money you spent on what mods. Get a good filter,
bleeder
>valve, used 440cc injectors and a used AFC, gut the precats, get a high
flow cat
>and a custom exhaust and you're in the low 12s with 17/18psi boost. All
this
>stuff is only about $800 maximum.


Yes I already have Hybrid 15G's with larger turbine wheel for quicker
responce at low rev's.
I am running the HKS EVC 4, have a HKS F-Con. I also have 550cc injectors
that I can use but I don't think I need them at this stage.
It is bored out to 3.2L with forged pistons and compression of 7.8 : 1
All heads ported and polished and flowed. Portmatched.
I don't have to have a Cat here, I have a straight 3.5" pipe so no problems
there..
I have fancy valve springs that are suppose to be able to stand 20psi
without blowing the valve of it's seat.

Ok so I am pretty sweet just need the fuel pump and filter and the computer
that will correctly map my flow and stop fuel cut.

Pump will be here in a couple of days and new filter also.
Just need to find the BEST/CHEAPEST computer.

Henry


>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 21:44:50 -0600
From: Rah <rah@isd.net>
Subject: Team3S: Stealth Stereo

Hello all, here to ask questions again,
    I have a 93 Stealth R/T TT, and what I understand to be the premium
6 speaker sound system.  I know currently Dodge's nicest stereos
available are Infinity packages and along with those comes the unusual
setup with their own amp and all.  Does this apply here?
    I'm looking to maybe upgrade the speakers at some point possibly, so
I'm also wondering what kind of speakers there are(specifically size)?
And how hard they are to change(whether or not the weird infinity thing
is involved too)?  Looking at the door speakers and rear ones the screen
oughta just pop off, but the dash look like they could be more involved.

Thanks all in advance!

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 22:33:50 -0700
From: Dave <monarchd@refuge.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Stealth Stereo

Team3S:  I was going to reply privately as this isn't really technical, but
I thought there might be others curious about it..  hope you all don't mind..

Rah wrote:
>
> Hello all, here to ask questions again,
>     I have a 93 Stealth R/T TT, and what I understand to be the premium
> 6 speaker sound system.  I know currently Dodge's nicest stereos
> available are Infinity packages and along with those comes the unusual
> setup with their own amp and all.  Does this apply here?

I think several options were available, but I believe all 3/S TT came with
factory amplification (meaning, an external amp as opposed to just the
internal amp in the head unit) by 93..  not positive on this though.. 
someone please correct me if I'm wrong..

look under your passenger seat with it all the way forward for a factory
amp..  it'll be easy to spot..  (btw, you can use aftermarket speakers with
this amp, but not an aftermarket head unit..)

>     I'm looking to maybe upgrade the speakers at some point possibly, so
> I'm also wondering what kind of speakers there are(specifically size)?
> And how hard they are to change(whether or not the weird infinity thing
> is involved too)?  Looking at the door speakers and rear ones the screen
> oughta just pop off, but the dash look like they could be more involved.

actually, it's just the opposite..  the dash speakers just pop/pry out, but
the door and rear speakers need to have the panels (not the grills) removed
to access them..

the dash speakers are the worst of the bunch to replace as far as aftermarket
options go..  they're 3" (not 3.5") and nobody seems to make that odd size..
(please, somebody tell me I'm wrong because I need to replace these myself..)
I think the door speakers are 6.5" and the rears are 6"x9", with plenty of
options available..  just make sure to watch out for mounting depth problems
before you fall in love with the sound of a particular speaker..

hope that helps..

- --
Dave
95 Black 3000GT VR4
87 Mica Red GTI G60
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 02:58:42 -0800
From: "nketo" <nketo@accglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Stealth Stereo

Rah,

I can tell u what I did with my 1993 stealth, and the noticeable improvement
in sound I got.
First off, the '93 spec you have has an internal amp off the head unit.
If u replace this unit, you'll lose the steering wheel controls for audio.
Period.

Your best bet is to replace this unit with an aftermarket unit.  I chose
Sony, because of their
quality and easy hookup; they sell adapters to your stereo's harness.
But more importantly, they have 4V outputs and seperate sub-outs; important
if you're adding subs
later.  (I origionally had one that didn't, and later regretted it...so I
sold it and got the one that did:))

The lines you can run along the door carpeting to a series of amps in the
rear.

I wound recommend that the two front dash units be replaced by tweeters and
crossovers
that will easily fit into the spots where the factory ones use to be.

The doors I'd recommend mids (I think 4.5 to 5 inch, but I'll have to double
check),
the rear 6 by 9's (optional tweeters can be placed here), and a pair of subs
in the trunk.

The dash units are easiest to "pop" off, the doors require to remove the
interior "skins", and
the rears require u to remove the rear seats, and interior skins just over
the rear seat belt
assemblies: you'll see one big section that's one piece with the screens.
The screens are integral with the skins; DO NOT try to "pluck" them out!
Besides, you'll need to wire and screw/unscrew the old assemblies; just
removing the
screens doesn't allow for enough clearance to pull em out.
AND they're a pain in the butt to get back in....:(

The 91-93 specs have 100 watts total output, Mitsu.  They were OK for a
factory system, but if
you're looking for a system that pounds, forget it; they'll breakup and
distort.
There are no crossovers in the factory system; only a few caps.

94 upgraded to around 200 watts, Infinity.

If u go aftermarket, you can easily get 400-500 watts (including subs) for
around $1500-2000,
complete (depending on models u get)

I personally wired everything, so if you're having trouble, lemme know and
I'll
see what I can do to help. :)

Lates
Noble

- -----Original Message-----
From: Rah <rah@isd.net>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Sunday, November 21, 1999 7:46 PM
Subject: Team3S: Stealth Stereo


>Hello all, here to ask questions again,
>    I have a 93 Stealth R/T TT, and what I understand to be the premium
>6 speaker sound system.  I know currently Dodge's nicest stereos
>available are Infinity packages and along with those comes the unusual
>setup with their own amp and all.  Does this apply here?
>    I'm looking to maybe upgrade the speakers at some point possibly, so
>I'm also wondering what kind of speakers there are(specifically size)?
>And how hard they are to change(whether or not the weird infinity thing
>is involved too)?  Looking at the door speakers and rear ones the screen
>oughta just pop off, but the dash look like they could be more involved.
>
>Thanks all in advance!
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:14:11 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Fuel Pump.

> Not sure on the pressure yet, we are trying that later today.
> Do you know if it is a two speed pump?
> Not sure on the voltage, standard 3000GT pump?
> I was on idle when I did that test.

Nonono, at idle you are having a vacuum that lowers fuel pressure, the pump is switched down to about 6-8 Volts or even less and therefore the flow is minimal :-) Testing is not always easy !

> Yes I already have Hybrid 15G's with larger turbine wheel for quicker
> responce at low rev's.  I am running the HKS EVC 4, have a HKS F-Con.
> I also have 550cc injectors that I can use but I don't think I need them at this stage.
> It is bored out to 3.2L with forged pistons and compression of 7.8 : 1
> All heads ported and polished and flowed. Portmatched.
> I don't have to have a Cat here, I have a straight 3.5" pipe so no problems
> there..

Nice setup, although I still don't like the F-Con. If you ever have the chance sell it and either get a VPC or ARC/MAF kit. You'll get much better results out of it. And I can tell you that you NEED the fuel IF you are running more than 15psi. This, because our cars need to run super-rich to avoid knock and the ECU does taking care of this and the injectors are maxxed out even at 15psi ! Fue lcut will then jump in at about 17psi as the values are jumping out of the map.

BUT: You have a lot of internals changed and I believe it is not fully 3.2l as the walls would be too thin. Anyways it is about 3.12 liters and this overbore can give you alot power. I believe that the even lower compression is responsible for much less knock as well as the forged pistons are.

> I have fancy valve springs that are suppose to be able to stand 20psi
> without blowing the valve of it's seat.

Idle is still ok ? Sometimes so heavy valve-springs do create more stree to the adjusters/cams and you may need also stronger parts there !

> Ok so I am pretty sweet just need the fuel pump and filter and the computer
> that will correctly map my flow and stop fuel cut.

The filter is ok if not clogged but, as mentioned, get a used VPC (Brad Bedell is selling some parts) and you'll be able to get much more out of it as you do today.

Damn, you definitely invested A LOT in your car and I'm sure that it will withstand 20psi easily. Just make sure to measure the intake temperature before the throttle body as you may start to think about a FMIC setup that is able to deliver the desired bosot and air at the same time.

> Pump will be here in a couple of days and new filter also.
> Just need to find the BEST/CHEAPEST computer.

Those words do not go together. You can get a used VPC setup alone for $600 used, but dunno what chip is included then and if it is fully working. I recommend the ARC2-GP MAF kit as I have good experience with it (only a little problem with temps under -5°C) and it handles anything around fuel and air. Well, it is another $1000 (including air filter) but I belive you can sell the F-Con to minimize costs. This setup, with 20psi of boost, you'll be able to run into the 11s for sure and power will be around 560hp or so.

Get the good fuel control and you will get more than you wanted :))

Roger
93'3000GT TT

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 03:43:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Wise <diranged@hearme.com>
Subject: Team3S: Another round of questions...

1) I've installed 3 (fuel, tach, speedo) of the 6 white face guages I have
for my 93 VR-4. I have the entire guage set which includes the Volt meter
instead of having the boost guage (for non turbo models). Since I have an
aftermarket boost guage (the Blitz dual turbo timer) I was thinking maybe
I could install a volt meter into that 3rd spot.. Does this sound doable?
If so, any ideas on how I could do this?

2) Ive been reading http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589
(Roger's web site) and his 99 Dyno testing results are impressive to say
the least. He shows that a US spec (9b turbos) w/ an AVC-R and a Blitz
SBOV makes 406 SAE hp. By my understanding, this means he makes somewhere
in the range of 300-310 WHEEL hp. Is that right? Does this sound accurate,
or are these results in a "best case" scenario?

3) I have recently found out that my car had been pretty heavily modified
(15g turbos, alamo sidemounts, etc.. ) before I bought it... I bought a 2
year/24k mile warentee simply because I knew the tranny was bad (yay,
getting a new one in about 7 hours). Anyone have any other ideas what
problems the car could have? I know that the stock exhaust sounds like
crap right now.. When standing behind it it sounds fine except for the
ocational pop (kind of a muffled pop) that sounds almost like the car is
backfiring. Could the timing be off?

3b) In relation to that last question, I've noticed that my Blitz dual
turbo timer registers my max boost (except when shifting) at about .42
Bar. This calculates out to only about 6.2 PSI of boost. I was told that
that boost level sounds acurate for a 93 Wastegate (meaning that it is old
and worn out, i believe). My question is, could the wastegate (since it is
old and not holding the stock 8psi (or was it 9?) of boost) be letting
exhaust out early? If its only giving me 6 psi of boost, what do you think
my power output is? My only other mod is a K&N...

Final question...

I'm getting a new tranny put in my car in about 7 hours (after i get off
work) by the dealer. I have a GM warentee. They know the tranny was bad
from the start but they are hiding it from GM. They put a new clutch in my
car before I bought it, but within 3 weeks I found (and got a professional
to look at it) that the clutch was adjusted wrong. It turned out that
every time I shifted the clutch was getting ground off a bit because the
clutch pedel wasnt adjusted right. Ive asked the dealer guys about putting
in a new clutch since they fucked up the last one, but they claim the
clutch should be fine. Is there any way I can get them to put in a new
clutch? I'd rather not spend another $500 down the line for a new clutch
if I can get  them to do it now.


- --Matt Wise
*NOC Admin*
(650) 429 3751

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:47:04 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Another round of questions...

> SBOV makes 406 SAE hp. By my understanding, this means he makes somewhere
> in the range of 300-310 WHEEL hp. Is that right? Does this sound accurate,
> or are these results in a "best case" scenario?

Well, this is with some conversion factors that are not easy to explain. When you measure power with a G-Tech pro you'll see about 260-270hp at the wheels and this is pretty accurate. The loss is indeed large and this is why we are getting around 370hpflywheel measured on the dyno (DIN-corrected). Our results were "worst case" as on the dyno you do have not a good cooling of the charge air as well as the coolant. For this we always open the hood to have additional cooling and less intake temperatures. On the street it is possible that you have more power and the SAE correction takes care of this.

> 3) I have recently found out that my car had been pretty heavily modified
> (15g turbos, alamo sidemounts, etc.. ) before I bought it... I bought a 2
> year/24k mile warentee simply because I knew the tranny was bad (yay,
> getting a new one in about 7 hours). Anyone have any other ideas what
> problems the car could have? I know that the stock exhaust sounds like
> crap right now.. When standing behind it it sounds fine except for the
> ocational pop (kind of a muffled pop) that sounds almost like the car is
> backfiring. Could the timing be off?

So has the car this mods on or not ? I always check the compression within 24 hours when I get a used car. I also check the look of the plugs, the look of the belt and tensioner and the IC intake for any larger sign of oil. The sound could be comming from heavily regapped plugs (down to 0.30) as this is often the cause for such sounds. Other than that, the cats can be clogged or even not working properly !

> 3b) In relation to that last question, I've noticed that my Blitz dual
> turbo timer registers my max boost (except when shifting) at about .42
> Bar.

What do you mean by "except when shifting" ? The steady boost you tell is normal for a 1st gen and it peaks up to 8psi asfter shifting and under full load in 3rd.

> This calculates out to only about 6.2 PSI of boost. I was told that
> that boost level sounds acurate for a 93 Wastegate (meaning that it is old
> and worn out, i believe). My question is, could the wastegate (since it is
> old and not holding the stock 8psi (or was it 9?) of boost) be letting
> exhaust out early?

Yes, can be but as said, this sounds pretty normal. With this you'll see about 280-296hp on the flywheel.

Hope this helps,
Roger
93'3000GT TT
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------------------------------

End of Team3S Digest V1 #342
****************************

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