--
From:
owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
(Team3S Digest)
To:
stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.comSubject:
Team3S Digest V1 #335
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender:
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Team3S Digest Sunday,
November 14 1999 Volume 01 : Number
335
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 13 Nov 1999 09:22:11 -0800
From: "Mohler, Jeff" <
jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Stock clutch?? Are you kidding me?
That's
odd.
Weve been heavilly autoxing out 95TT for a year, and literally every
single
weekend this season since March.
Two drivers each weekend (wife
and I), most weekends the car gets 8 hard
dragstyle launches, and some
weekends on divisional events 16 of the same
(including lots of WOT
shifts).
Weve also dragraced on the weekends we had nothing beter to do
(since we moved
to CA).
Clutch feels fine.
Theres a fine
line the driver has to walk between too much, and bogging at the
line.
It CAN be found.
:-----Original Message-----
:From: Curt Gendron [
mailto:curt_gendron@hotmail.com]
:Sent:
Friday, November 12, 1999 9:07 PM
:To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com:Subject:
Team3S: Stock clutch?? Are you kidding me?
:
:
:If your just going to
drive your 3/S around, a stock clutch is
:fine. But if
:you start
drag racing, there is no way a stock clutch will
:hold up. Here
:are my examples.
:
:I started drag racing about 13 months ago.
After one day at
:the track and
:many G-tech runs my stock clutch (95
R/T TT) went south with
:about 35,000
:miles on it. I now have an
ACT clutch, that holds like glue.
:
:Mark has a 91 R/T TT, he started drag
racing this Spring.
:After one trip to
:the track and many G-tech
runs, his stock clutch went south.
:He now has the
:RPS Carbon
claw and it appears to be holding up.
:
:Francis has a 96 R/T TT, after
one or two trips to the track his stock
:clutch started slipping. He
bought the RPS clutch, and now that is
:slipping. He only had about
25,000 miles on the stock clutch.
:
:John has a 95 R/T TT and after one
trip to the track and a lot
:of G-tech
:runs, his stock clutch started
slipping. He has since
:replaced it with
:another stock
clutch. (Don't ask why)
:
:Oskar has a 95 R/T TT. He is the
luckiest one. He has made 5
:trips to the
:track on the stock
clutch. It comes and goes. Sometimes it
:holds up and
:sometimes it slips really bad. He'll be putting in an
:aftermarket clutch
:this winter. (hopefully an ACT)
:
:You learn
a lot at "Minnesota 3/S"
:
:Curt
:
http://www.mn3s.org:
:
:______________________________________________________
:Get
Your Private, Free Email at
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Date:
Sat, 13 Nov 1999 10:42:45 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Stock clutch?? Are you kidding me?
Jeff makes the point I held back
from making when I first saw this clutch
thread emerge. Furthermore, he
is not alone. Most people with stock
clutches and successful racing in
their VR4s actually have had good luck
with the stock setup and mild
mods.
Several failed clutches is not necessarily indicative of a poor
quality
clutch. Virtually ANY clucth can be destroyed in a matter of
moments with
incorrect use.
Unless the drivers mentioned in the
previous thread are seeing 1.6-1.7 60'
times consistently they are likely not
using the clutch correctly for this
car. Most people tend to slip the
clutch more than necessary because it can
be tricky to launch a car like the
VR4 which tends to hook up very well.
Contrary to what some may think, you
actually want some degree of wheelspin
off the line for an optimum
launch. People bogging off the line tend to
slip the clutch to get the
car motivated and keep the engine in the sweet
rev range, which translates to
accelerated wear if not immediate failure.
My stock clutch saw over
47,000 miles of hard street use including countless
G-Tech and impromptu drag
runs before it started to slip. When it came out
it was actually in
very good condition other than expected wear. I have
been through no
less than 3 after-market clutches for various reasons since
the stock
one.
The stock clutch works great for mild mods and only becomes
inadequate once
significantly more power is squeezed out of the stock
mill. Mine didn't
start slipping until after 15Gs and all the other
associated mods.
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
>
> That's odd.
>
> Weve been heavilly
autoxing out 95TT for a year, and literally
> every single
> weekend
this season since March.
>
> Two drivers each weekend (wife and I),
most weekends the car gets 8 hard
> dragstyle launches, and some weekends
on divisional events 16 of the same
> (including lots of WOT
shifts).
>
> Weve also dragraced on the weekends we had nothing
beter to do
> (since we moved
> to CA).
>
>
>
Clutch feels fine.
>
> Theres a fine line the driver has to walk
between too much, and
> bogging at the
> line. It CAN be
found.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:54:25 -0600
From: "Owens, Trent L." <
Trent.Owens@destia.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Thanks\Warning\AVC-R\Invitation :)
> FMIC in the mail and
have started to design the system the way I want it.
> ETA on the
installation will be over the Christmas holidays. (I will keep
> you
posted and take lots of pics!) Other mods will be an Eclipse
K&N
FIPK,
> a custom exhaust and later, water injection. (Get ready
for the questions
> John! ;) )
I don't want to sound negative but I
miss the upgrade stages or better said
the path you are going. I don't see
anything about fuel and I just wonder
what a FMIC will help with the stock
turbos and possible stock IC piping. As
you design the system (?) the way you
want it I wonder what way you go. Let
us know.
Roger
93'3000GT
TT
Sorry about that!
Your right! The FMIC core is
much bigger than the stock IC's and will help
(somewhat but not that much)
with the stock turbos. However I plan on
upgrading to 15G or (more than
likely) larger turbos. Fuel upgrade is a
MUST and a given! I
didnt include it with my last post cause it had so much
other information in
it I didnt want it to get to long. However, I plan on
doing a custom
fuel delivery system (pump -> rail) with a highflow filter
and possibly a
Supra pump..... However Im not quite sure at this point what
pump I
will run. As far as injectors Im thinking of going with
the
"dumpers" 720cc and controlling them with the SplitSecond
ARC2-GP. I WILL
NOT increase the boost until I know forsure Im in the
safe. That is why Im
not running at the 1.05 bar limit right now.
These mods cost enough as it
is! I dont have the $$$ to rebuild the
engine unexpectedly! However, a
rebuild (stronger bottom end and higher
flowing top end) is in the long-term
plan too! ;)
As for the
path I am going to take....
1. K&N FIPK
2. Custom
Exhaust
3. FMIC
4. Fuel system upgrade (pump and custom
delivery)
5. Water Injection
6. SplitSecond
w/720's
7. Turbos
Thats as far as I want say right
now...... The plans could change according
to things we find out here
in 3/s land!
I am an senior electronics engineering major at Texas
A&M University... I
have test labs and all kinds of neat stuff at my
disposal..... I would like
to start working on a circuit to monitor
knock without destroying the
sensor. I know John Basol had worked with
that before and I was hoping to
discuss his findings a little more, although
I havent asked him yet. If you
have any info on this please e-mail me
so we can start monitoring this
deadly force!
Trent Owens
'95 RT
TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 13 Nov 1999 10:42:36 -0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Stock clutch?? Are you kidding me?
- -----Original
Message-----From:
TurboDrvn@aol.com<
TurboDrvn@aol.com>
-
-------snip-------
>When I received a new tranny in June of 1998 at 59,957
miles; I
asked the
>dealership to replace my clutch as well with an
OEM/factory clutch;
the
>mechanic told me that my '92 VR4 with 59,957
miles had the ORIGINAL
clutch; I
>was surprised to hear that since I
had taken at least 12 HARD
launches on
>this original clutch!!
And who knows how hard the previous owner
was on the
>clutch. My
car was bone stock at the time. Mind you, the clutch
never
gave
>me any problems but I figured might as well replace with a new
one
at the
>time of the tranny replacement.
It bears repeating,
(so folks don't get the wrong idea when a
negative opinion comes along), that
most experiences with the stock
clutch are positive. It's been said
before on this (and other)
lists by *very* experienced drivers-- the stock
clutch is excellent!
Many owners have been amazed with how long it lasts and
how well it
grips... including many who regularly race their cars with
the
stock clutch with no problem.
>I have now put 24,800 miles on
my car since that date on my new
tranny &
>clutch; with all my mods
and at least 30 Hard Launches (several
1.7 - 1.8
>60ft. times); the
factory/OEM clutch STILL feels strong!!!! (I
hope I didn't
>jinx
myself). But the point I'm trying to make is that it all
depends on
how
>you launch and how much abuse you inflict on your car.
That's
the point that *needs* to be made-- if you launch poorly, any
clutch will
suffer, as will other components. If you pop the clutch
at 6500 when
the staging lights go green, the stock clutch probably
won't last very
long. Similarly, if you do something stupid, like
slipping it while
driving uphill at low speed, you can polish the
surface into oblivion in an
afternoon. I know, since I tried
*backing* slowly UP a 30-degree
incline, a rocky, 1/2 mile long
country driveway, (around obstacles that
barely cleared my bumpers)
and I toasted mine in under an
hour!!!
>But if my current factory/OEM clutch fails....I may need a
stronger
clutch
>soon?? Maybe ACT? Centerforce? or
back to OEM??? My experience
with
>factory/OEM has been
excellent!!!!!! But I'm planning on having
over 500
>Horsepower
fairly soon...so I think ACT or Centerforce would be a
wise
>decision
for me when this current OEM clutch fails.
That's been the consensus in
the past-- if you do modify your car
past the 500 HP level, that's when
you should be looking at a clutch
with a bit more hold. But you won't
be as happy with those clutches
for driving in traffic; lots of chatter and
the occasional
embarrasing lurch at 3 MPH during rush hour...
I put in
the RPS Carbon Claw (not the RPS Turbo Carbon) and it's
great (no problems in
6,000 miles), but since I race so
infrequently, if I ever need to replace it,
I'll probably go back to
the stock
clutch.
Best,
Forrest
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 13 Nov 1999 18:22:56 CST
From: "Curt Gendron" <
curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Stock clutch?? Are you kidding me?
I agree that a poorly used
stock clutch will wear faster. But that is part
of the reason of
buying a good aftermarket clutch. Now matter how good of a
1/4 mile
driver your are, you will make mistakes and burn the clutch once in
a
while. Or even during normal driving, there may be a need to slip the
clutch, on purpose or accident. A good aftermarket clutch will be more
forgiving.
My view on stock clutches is based on my first hand
experiences. We have 6
"Minnesota 3/S" members that do drag
strip racing on occasion. Four of us
have replaced clutches in the
last eight months. Another person is about
too. The sixth person
has only had his car for four months.
IMO, if you have a lot of miles on
a stock clutch, your either drive your
car perfectly or you haven't pushed
it to its limits enough.
later,
Curt
http://www.mn3s.org>From:
"Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
>Reply-To: <
beking@home.com>
>To: <
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Subject:
RE: Team3S: Stock clutch?? Are you kidding me?
>Date: Sat, 13 Nov
1999 10:42:45 -0700
>
>Jeff makes the point I held back from making
when I first saw this clutch
>thread emerge. Furthermore, he is not
alone. Most people with stock
>clutches and successful racing in
their VR4s actually have had good luck
>with the stock setup and mild
mods.
>
>Several failed clutches is not necessarily indicative of a
poor quality
>clutch. Virtually ANY clucth can be destroyed in a
matter of moments with
>incorrect
use.
______________________________________________________
Get Your
Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 13 Nov 1999 19:32:44 EST
From:
Klusmanp@aol.comSubject: Team3S: bent rim
repair
Got some new tires today. I drove up to Tire Rack HQ in South
Bend, IN to
have them install some Dunlop SP9000s on my '91 VR4. I've been
having a
vibration problem I can't get rid of, so I was interested in having
Tire Rack
"match" the tires to the rims (position the tire on the
rim so the low spot
on the rim matches the high spot on the tire - gives an
overall more round
rim/tire combo).
They found two rims bent pretty
badly (.08 runout on the worst one) - you
could see the wobble as the
rim/tire spun on the test machine. They mounted
the two bent rims on the
rear, and the car drives pretty much glass smooth...
for now.
I was
told that running the new tires on bent rims will cause the tires to go
out
of round, so I'm interested in having the rims repaired before this
happens.
It shouldn't be too difficult, just build up some weld on the low
spots
where the tire bead sits, mount the rim on a lathe, and turn it back
true
again. Yes, I realize this will cause the rim to be unbalanced. No big
deal,
just have to put more weights on the rim to get everything
balanced.
Anybody know of a good shop that can do this sort of rim
repair?
Thanks
Paul Klusman
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 13 Nov 1999 16:49:34 -0800
From: "Darcy Gunnlaugson" <
wce@telus.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Stock
clutch?? Are you kidding me?
Curt
You responded to Barry's post
with the following:
>My view on stock clutches is based on my
first hand experiences. We have 6
>"Minnesota 3/S" members
that do drag strip racing on occasion. Four of us
>have replaced
clutches in the last eight months. Another person is
about
>too. The sixth person has only had his car for four
months.
>IMO, if you have a lot of miles on a stock clutch, your
either drive your
>car perfectly or you haven't pushed it to its limits
enough.
>
While opinions are held by everyone, they can in fact
become close to
affronting if not managed properly. My experience with Barry
would indicate
that he is an aggressive driver, not one who does not push his
car to the
limits. His numerous past postings would indicate the same. And,
he is not
he only person with mods who has indicated that stock clutches are
a
reliable choice. Only when mods exceed 500hp does it seem that OME (or
for
that matter some AM) clutches do not hold up. There are also obvious
cases
where clear abuse is the cause of clutch failure. That Minnesota
members
seem to go through stock clutches rapidly, may be either a comment on
their
advanced modifications, or on a similar launch skill that they have
learned
from one and other. It is certainly not for me to judge which, as
similarly
it is not the place in this group for any member to judge
another.
Best
Darc
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 13 Nov 1999 22:10:53 -0800
From: "Sam Shelat" <
sshelat@erols.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Stock clutch?? Are you kidding me?
I have 58,000 miles on my
stock clutch and drive it pretty hard on my
commute back
and forth from
home to work. However, this clutch cannot hold more than a
3000
rpm
launch. Anything more sends it burning away with the car just
sitting
there. If I drag the
clutch out, it moves quickly out
of the hole, but not that aggressively. It
seems to get
the turbos
to start spooling and take off hard, I have to cheat and get the
car
rolling
just slightly and then bring up the RPMs and slip it out. A
recent tranny
replacement
proved that the stock clutch had much of its
material still remaining. Its
a really great clutch
in traffic, but
its too soft for hard launches IMHO. Someone said that
perhaps
the
previous owner glazed the flywheel? Everyone who has ever driven my
car has
burnt the
clutch bad on there first try. Most do not like it
and can not understand
how it does a 4.8
second 0-60. I am going to
get a Centerforce because I believe it is soft
enough to
keep the tranny
from blowing apart, but clamps hard enough to blast the car
off
the
line. After driving this car for a year now, I still can not get a
great
launch without burning
the stock clutch. Many times, the car
just sits there while the clutch
stinks up the air. My
T/A had a
much better tranny.
Sam 95 VR4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 13 Nov 1999 21:42:42 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Stock clutch?? Are you kidding me?
The flywheel won't be glazed per se,
but rather the surface of the friction
plate. This happens when it gets
too hot too fast and the resins which bind
the friction material together
melt rather than burn off. This same
phenomenon can happen to brake
pads. It can also happen early in a clutch's
life from premature
break-in.
My stock clutch regularly withstood 6500 rpm "near
side-step" launches even
with in excess of 45,000 miles without
signifcant slippage. This was before
the 15Gs etc. This induced
wheelspin which is what you want to do for super
quick launches. If the
wheels are not spinning and the engine is revving
steadily at launch time
then the clutch is slipping. Not what you want to
do. There will
always be some degree of slippage since that's how clutches
work, but there
should not be enough to cause the engine to rev freely
without providing
forward momentum.
The tranny is not at fault here, you just need to be
more agressive with the
launch if this is what you want to do. From
experience, this gets expensive
fast. I have been through two
transmissions and a driveshaft. The key to
string launches is to
literally let the clutch out as fast as you can lift
your foot without
actually side-stepping the clutch. On a properly tuned
VR4 this will
allow adequate engine load to facilitate quick spool-up
without overspinning
the clutch prior to it grabbing. As soon as it starts
to get hot gases
will form on the surface and hamper the clutches ability to
clamp. The
clutch has to hook up while it is still relatively cool. This
means
inducing wheelspin. Usually this is around 4500-5500 rpm at the
line
depending on the car and other conditions.
All of this is
terribly hard on the car of course, and is on any car. Two
wheel drive
cars however tend to break loose first which makes it easier on
the
driveline. Our cars hook up so well that it really takes a lot to
make
them break loose. The AWD configuration puts an incredible amount
of stress
on the drveline in these situations.
For spirited street
driving 4.8 sec 0-60 times can be had with 3000-3500 rpm
easy launches.
This is ually enough to stomp on most street cars. Hard
launches (4500
up, with the method described above) can put you into the
1.6 - 1.7 sec 60'
bracket, which is closer to a 4 second 0-60 time. Not
shabby for a
street car.
Barry
> -----Original Message-----
>
From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
[
mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of Sam Shelat
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 1999 11:11 PM
>
To: team3s
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Stock clutch?? Are you kidding
me?
>
>
>
> I have 58,000 miles on my stock clutch and
drive it pretty hard on my
> commute back
> and forth from home to
work. However, this clutch cannot hold more than a
> 3000
rpm
> launch. Anything more sends it burning away with the car
just sitting
> there. If I drag the
> clutch out, it
moves quickly out of the hole, but not that
> aggressively.
It
> seems to get
> the turbos to start spooling and take off hard,
I have to cheat
> and get the
> car rolling
> just slightly
and then bring up the RPMs and slip it out. A recent tranny
>
replacement
> proved that the stock clutch had much of its material
still
> remaining. Its
> a really great clutch
> in
traffic, but its too soft for hard launches IMHO. Someone said
that
> perhaps the
> previous owner glazed the flywheel?
Everyone who has ever driven
> my car has
> burnt the
> clutch
bad on there first try. Most do not like it and can not understand
>
how it does a 4.8
> second 0-60. I am going to get a Centerforce
because I believe it is soft
> enough to
> keep the tranny from
blowing apart, but clamps hard enough to
> blast the car
> off
the
> line. After driving this car for a year now, I still can not
get a great
> launch without burning
> the stock clutch. Many
times, the car just sits there while the clutch
> stinks up the air.
My
> T/A had a much better tranny.
>
> Sam 95 VR4
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 14 Nov 1999 10:45:02 -0800
From: "Mohler, Jeff" <
jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: bent rim repair
I belive you can visit www.fixarim.com for
details.
:-----Original Message-----
:From:
Klusmanp@aol.com [
mailto:Klusmanp@aol.com]
:Sent: Saturday,
November 13, 1999 4:33 PM
:To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com:Subject:
Team3S: bent rim repair
:
:
:Got some new tires today. I drove up to
Tire Rack HQ in South
:Bend, IN to
:have them install some Dunlop
SP9000s on my '91 VR4. I've been
:having a
:vibration problem I can't
get rid of, so I was interested in
:having Tire Rack
:"match"
the tires to the rims (position the tire on the rim so
:the low spot
:on
the rim matches the high spot on the tire - gives an
:overall more round
:rim/tire combo).
:
:They found two rims bent pretty badly (.08 runout
on the worst
:one) - you
:could see the wobble as the rim/tire spun on
the test machine.
:They mounted
:the two bent rims on the rear, and the
car drives pretty much
:glass smooth...
: for now.
:
:I was told
that running the new tires on bent rims will cause
:the tires to go
:out
of round, so I'm interested in having the rims repaired
:before this
:happens. It shouldn't be too difficult, just build up some
:weld on the
low
:spots where the tire bead sits, mount the rim on a lathe, and
:turn
it back
:true again. Yes, I realize this will cause the rim to be
:unbalanced. No big
:deal, just have to put more weights on the rim to
get
:everything balanced.
:
:Anybody know of a good shop that can do
this sort of rim repair?
:
:Thanks
:
:Paul Klusman
:For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
:http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
:
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
End
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