--

From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com (Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S Digest V1 #329
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Errors-To: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Precedence: bulk


Team3S Digest         Sunday, November 7 1999         Volume 01 : Number 329




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 22:10:46 -0800
From: "Mohler, Jeff" <jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: New To List/Few Questions..

THe honeycombs help smooth the airflow for the AFM to properly meter the mass of
air entering the system.

The AFM reads a particular type of airflow, which must be linear (to a point)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Darcy Gunnlaugson [mailto:wce@telus.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 6:03 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: New To List/Few Questions..


The honeycombs were put in there by Mitsu engineers to serve as an
educational toy to bewilder the minds of those who think they mean nothing
and consequently tear them out. They are something like the Great Pyramid is
on a global basis: an educational toy to set bewilder the mind of manchild.
;-)

Best

Darc
- -----Original Message-----
From: Matt Wise <diranged@hearme.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Saturday, November 06, 1999 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: New To List/Few Questions..


>Oh yeah! One more thing...
>When I put the K&N in , I removed all 4 of those honeycome metal things..
>THey didnt LOOK like they did anything but smooth the air flow a bit I
>guess. When I did that, the car idled like crap. When I put them back in,
>the car idled great. What are they, why did the car idle like that w/o
>them? Thanks.
>
>--Matt Wise
>*NOC Admin*
>(650) 429 3751
>
>On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, Matt Wise wrote:
>
>> First of all, I'd like to say I am new to this list.. If this type of
post
>> is not what you guys deal with, please accept my appologies, but I did
not
>> get much help in the stealth@starnet.net list.
>>
>> Three weeks ago I purchased a 1993 3000GT VR-4. I knew it had a bad
>> sycnrho in 3rd gear, so I gota warentee and they are supposedly putting a
>> new tranny in next week some time under the GM warentee. (I HOPE! If they
>> dont, I have a real problem!) I have a few questions about the car.. as
>> well as things i've done to it and will do in the future.
>>
>> 1) I replaced the spark plugs last week. When I did so, I didnt put the
>> upper IC pipe (for the upper turbo) back on , I just let it hang there
>> because i am an idiot. After a day, I decided to figure out what was
going
>> on and realized what happened. I bought the O-ring again because it had
>> been schredded ($7 for an o-ring at mitsu! Geeze!) by all of the air from
>> the turbo. My question is, since then, the car hasnt felt like it had as
>> much kick. Am I imagining things? Is it possible that I made a leak
>> somewhere else? (I checked all the hoses and pipes I could find.. Nothing
>> SEEMS loose.
>>
>> 2) Do our rear wheels turn the SAME or OPPOSITE direction as the front
>> wheels? I've heard both.. and at what speed to they start turning, and
how
>> much?
>>
>> 3) Could I get two used 13g turbos off an old automatic Eclipse and use
>> those? would they bolt on? If so, why wouldnt a 14b bolt on? Are the
>> Eclipse 13g's different from the upgraded ones you'd get at Extreme for
>> instance?
>>
>> 4) I added a Blitz Dual TUrbo Timer about 2 weeks ago, and i've noticed
>> that when I put it in gear and floor it, max boost is about .4-.42 BAR.
It
>> only hits .5-.55 BAR when i SHIFT.. Whats going on? this seems trange..
>> Could the wastegate be broken or something? Maybe this has to do with my
>> 1st question.. Maybe I have a loose hose somewhere.
>>
>> 5) I added a K&N air filter yesterday, and I definately noticed a
>> difference in the pickup.. how much HP did this most likely add? (by the
>> way, I am on 9b turbos, the US spec.. not euro spec) How much HP will a
>> boost controller set at 1.02 bar add? (not to the wheels, just total.. )
>>
>> 6) I've heard that our cars loose %33 through the drivetrain... Is that
>> accurate? If so, how much does a smaller pulley help?
>>
>> (yes the list keeps going!)
>>
>> 7) If the Euro spec 3kgt's have 13g turbos, how much HP are they rated
at?
>> (just out of curiosity) and why dont US spec 3kgt's/Stealth's have those
>> same turbos?
>>
>> 8) What QUIET exhaust would you guys recomend? I'm thinking the HKS dual
>> tip exhaust. The borla would be nice, but its SOO LOUD!
>>
>> 9) How much horsepower can stock 9b turbos hold? What would you guys
>> recomend for a streetable car? 15g's?
>>
>> THanks, those are all of the questions i've been thinking about this
>> morning.. i'm sure I'll have more later :)
>>
>> --Matt Wise
>> *NOC Admin*
>> (650) 429 3751
>>
>> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 22:13:11 -0800
From: "Mohler, Jeff" <jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
Subject: Team3S: SF Region AutoX

I plan on attending tomorrow AMs autox in Oakland.

Decided to fix the flat on the trailer, and find four "good" racing tires from
the pile out back.


Who knows..maybe someone from the list will be there.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 00:31:22 -0600
From: "Vineet Singh" <billi_gates@hotmail.com>
Subject: Team3S: DSM turbo's on 3/S cars.

1g A/T DSM's came with 13g turbo's stock (they had the "staggered fin"
design that the 16g's have, and it's actually called the "G trim"). however,
they will NOT bolt up. The front one MIGHT be made to work with a different
exhaust housing (3/S cars have only 3 bolts, dsm's have 4, and of course the
down pipe outlet is different). The rear one is a different monster all
together. It's reveresed, and also a bit longer than the front one. (14b's
will not work for the same reasons, and then the oil/water lines would be
different for sure as well!)

Vineet Singh
Manuals On CD - http://manualcd.dsm.org
Club DSM A/T - http://at.dsm.org  -  "Never Lift To Shift!"
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 22:48:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Wise <diranged@hearme.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: New To List/Few Questions..

Bah, I didnt spend 3 hours on it. :) I pulled out my drill and drilled the
original air box OFF of the MAS, then used vice grips :) Anyone want my
air box? :)

- --Matt Wise
*NOC Admin*
(650) 429 3751

On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, Benson "elmagoo" Russell wrote:

> That's a good question about the honey-comb things.  When I put on my K&N,
> it was hell and high-water to get that damn original air-box off of the MAS.
> I accidentally in the process destroyed the two smaller honeycomb pieces on
> the side (the rounded ones), but managed to salvage the big one in the
> center.  So I'm running with just one of those pieces in due to engineering
> stupidity on those damn 4 screws that hold the MAS to the stock air-box.  It
> took me 3+ hours and a friends help to get those two things separated, and I
> had to totally shred the bottom portion of the stock air-box.  It's an
> amusing story to say the least :).
>
>
> Latuh fuh U,
> Benson
> benson@2015.com
>
> "-Do you ever have second thoughts?
> -When do I ever have first thoughts?"
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 22:55:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Wise <diranged@hearme.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Oil BEFORE rear turbo

I know on eclipses they have an oil line from the head that goes into the
intercooler line. Why? EPA... So the oil doesnt splatter on the ground or
in the engine. Why did they put the hole? I dont know.. It could be
somethign similar. I bet you can get a K&N air filter for it..

- --Matt Wise
*NOC Admin*
(650) 429 3751

On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, Michael McWilliams wrote:

> My car has been blowing large amounts of blue smoke.  I did a compression
> check and got good numbers.  I also replaced the PCV valve.  I found oil in
> the rear intercooler pipe and concluded that the bearings and/or seals were
> bad causing an oil leak which resulted in the smoke.
>
> I was starting to remove the rear turbo to have it sent out for rebuild when
> I noticed a lot of oil in the intake hose BEFORE the rear turbo.  The only
> place it could be coming from is a hose identified only as a "vent hose" in
> the manual.  This hose originates on the passenger side of the engine near
> the top center just below the intake plenum.  It leads to the "T" hose which
> connects the mass air meter to the hoses leading to the turbo intakes
> (closer to the rear turbo).
>
> Oil is traveling through this hose, into the rear turbo intake where it
> eventually goes through the intercooler and ultimately into the Y-pipe and
> intake.  What gives?  I know Roger had a similar problem which he described
> as 'PCV oiling' when his engine needed to be rebuilt, but I have good
> compression numbers on all six cylinders.  Could there just be sludge built
> up in an oil drain hole which is preventing it from draining back into the
> pan in that particular passage?
>
> Please help ASAP.  My car is half apart and I need to know what to do.  Any
> ideas appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 22:59:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Wise <diranged@hearme.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Went drag racing today, need some opinions !

That is VERY strange... Even though your ET is 14.5, thats more related to
how good a driver you are... your total trap speed should EASILY be above
100 from what i've read online. Isnt stock trap speed 101 mph?

- --Matt Wise
*NOC Admin*
(650) 429 3751

On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, Kevin wrote:

> First the car.
> 91 Stealth TT
> Gutted cat/precats
> New NGK plugs gapped to .034"
> New Accell plug wires
> 60k service just done
> Blitz SSBC set to 1.05 bar
>
> Now my best time
> Temp: 64
> Relative humidity: 54
> 60'                  - 2.105
> 330'                - 6.007
> 1/8 mile           - 9.357
> 1/8 mile MPH - 73.98
> 1000'              - 12.185
> 1/4 mile           - 14.521
> 1/4 mile mph   - 97.05
>
> >From everything I have seen online this is way too slow for my car.  I know
> the 60' times were a little slow as I was having trouble launching.  I tried
> launching at 5000 - 5500 RPM and dumping the clutch, which was ok but not
> neck snapping.  I did launch once trying to slip the clutch but ended up
> toasting the clutch.  I was hoping for low 13 second times, and I have seen
> similar cars going 13.2 with 60' times close to mine.  What should I look at
> first?  The car is running fine, no odd noises, sputtering or any other
> signs.  I have noticed the oil cap is leaking after I finished the 60k mile
> service. (including new PCV valve)  Could this be related?  Any 1/4 mile
> guys out there that can make sense of my times, please speak up.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Kevin Schappell
> Auto Answers
> http://www.PACarSearch.com
> If you love cars, check out
> http://www.pacarsearch.com/motorhead
> ------------Still under construction---------------
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 01:06:52 -0600
From: "Vineet Singh" <billi_gates@hotmail.com>
Subject: Team3S: Steering wheel play/Brakes

These manuals are a crock of $h|+... They assured me that any steering play
up to 1.2" is NORMAL for our cars. Well my car had about 1" of free play
before the wheels did anything. I thought I was ok, and worried about the
other semi-major problems with the car. I am attacking them one at a time.

I just did the front brakes, and to my astonishment, there was MAYBE .5mm of
pad material left on the drivers side, and 2mm left on the passenger side.
There was no squealing, or any other noises to indicate this dangerous
condition. I knew I had to change them because the brakes would "grind" a
bit if stopping moderately fast.

   *Rotor removal trick below*

The rotors were a pain in the ass to take off, and upon screwing the
"removal bolts" into the old rotors, they promptly cracked/stripped. I found
a trick though! I removed the caliper (you have to anyway), and put the big
17mm caliper mounting bolts back in. I stuck 2 QUARTERS between the end of
the bolt and the rotor. Then just screwed the bolt in a little, then the
lower one the same way. It pushed the seized rotor off like a charm, and
don't worry, those bolts are like grade 100 or something because they bent
the quarters, but didn't even look abused!

I painted the calipers yellow after a good dousing of brake parts cleaner
and a bit of fine grit sandpaper. They look really nice now! I am amazed at
how light they are! I think the 3000gt SL brakes that are on my Talon are 2x
as heavy! Don't worry though, the 3000gt Vr4 front rotor makes up for the
weight difference, that thing is bigger than what I used to have on my
ranger! (truck).

Oh yea, back to the steering wheel play... guess what, my outer tie rod ends
have like 1-2mm of play in them. The bottom part (spindle) can move w/o
moving the top (nut) part/steering rack. This is the same if not worse on
the passenger side! Don't tell me THAT is normal! I went to POOP BOY's, and
they assured me that the ones they listed under "2 Wheel Steering, outer"
ones were correct. They don't LOOK correct, kinda wimpy actually (in fact
they look more like my talon ones than the stealth's!).

I will be ordering the REAL ones from 1888tallmits this Monday, but how do I
get them off? do I need that "pitch fork" looking tool (ball joint
separation). I bought one in case. Can I just hammer it from the top after
removing the nut? Will I need an alignment after this?

My "loose" steering also caused the car to wander a bit on the road... I had
just tricked myself into thinking maybe the AWS makes it feel like that.
Don't believe everything in the manuals! In the brakes section, they really
seem to think that JUST changing pads is all that is needed when doing the
brakes. I think this because they don't mention removing the caliper, so I
assume they don't turn/replace the rotors (according to their directions).
Always do this!

Also, one more thing. I got the car with BBS RSII rims on it. They are a 3
piece rim, mesh/spoke pattern, similar to some BMW OEM rims. I have 3000gt
SL wheels on my Talon (yea, the talon is more a 3/S car than anything now
:), and with 225/50/16" tires on them, they weigh nearly *50lbs*!!! These
BBS wheels are the lightest rims I have ever picked up, just for fun, I
weighed them, and with the 235/45/17's they weigh ONLY 37lbs!. Stock talon
wheels weigh 41! That is totally amazing (though I think the BBS's look
kinda ugly).  In fact, they are even lighter than my friends Antera 3 spoke
(UGLY, but VERY light) rims, by 1 lb. And these are 17"s!

A pic of my car is here, along with the veilside bodied GTO. I like my
stealth's GFX, not TOO different IMO. (not worth the money/effort to change
something that is nearly perfect already, maybe if I had a small accident in
front or back I would change my mind :)

http://manualcd.dsm.org/rich/veil_mycar.jpg

Enough babbling for now, stay tuned for more! Next project? Rear leaky
turbo!

Vineet Singh
Manuals On CD - http://manualcd.dsm.org
Club DSM A/T - http://at.dsm.org  -  "Never Lift To Shift!"


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 23:16:23 -0800
From: "Mohler, Jeff" <jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Oil BEFORE rear turbo

You mean..a vent from the head to the intake plumbing.

Easy.

Emissions.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Matt Wise [mailto:diranged@hearme.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 10:56 PM
To: Michael McWilliams
Cc: stealth-3000
Subject: Re: Team3S: Oil BEFORE rear turbo


I know on eclipses they have an oil line from the head that goes into the
intercooler line. Why? EPA... So the oil doesnt splatter on the ground or
in the engine. Why did they put the hole? I dont know.. It could be
somethign similar. I bet you can get a K&N air filter for it..

- --Matt Wise
*NOC Admin*
(650) 429 3751

On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, Michael McWilliams wrote:

> My car has been blowing large amounts of blue smoke.  I did a compression
> check and got good numbers.  I also replaced the PCV valve.  I found oil in
> the rear intercooler pipe and concluded that the bearings and/or seals were
> bad causing an oil leak which resulted in the smoke.
>
> I was starting to remove the rear turbo to have it sent out for rebuild when
> I noticed a lot of oil in the intake hose BEFORE the rear turbo.  The only
> place it could be coming from is a hose identified only as a "vent hose" in
> the manual.  This hose originates on the passenger side of the engine near
> the top center just below the intake plenum.  It leads to the "T" hose which
> connects the mass air meter to the hoses leading to the turbo intakes
> (closer to the rear turbo).
>
> Oil is traveling through this hose, into the rear turbo intake where it
> eventually goes through the intercooler and ultimately into the Y-pipe and
> intake.  What gives?  I know Roger had a similar problem which he described
> as 'PCV oiling' when his engine needed to be rebuilt, but I have good
> compression numbers on all six cylinders.  Could there just be sludge built
> up in an oil drain hole which is preventing it from draining back into the
> pan in that particular passage?
>
> Please help ASAP.  My car is half apart and I need to know what to do.  Any
> ideas appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 23:23:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Matt Wise <diranged@hearme.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: New To List/Few Questions..

> >4) I added a Blitz Dual TUrbo Timer about 2 weeks ago, and i've noticed
> >that when I put it in gear and floor it, max boost is about .4-.42 BAR. It
> >only hits .5-.55 BAR when i SHIFT.. Whats going on? this seems trange..
> >Could the wastegate be broken or something? Maybe this has to do with my
> >1st question.. Maybe I have a loose hose somewhere.
>
> Did you hook up the vacuum hose to the blowoff valve properly?  If not,
> that can be a major source of lost boost.

Umm, For the boost guage portion of my turbo timer, doesnt it connect to
the top vacume hose coming off of the throttle body?

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 15:31:30 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Oil BEFORE rear turbo

> The only place it could be coming from is a hose identified only as a "vent
> hose" in the manual.

What about the BPV valve ? If you have oil in the y-pipe it will be blown back
into the intake before the turbos. This was not the case in my problem as I had
the HKS BOV installed and therefore the oil definitely was comming from the
crankcase ventilation system.

> Oil is traveling through this hose, into the rear turbo intake where it
> eventually goes through the intercooler and ultimately into the Y-pipe and
> intake.

Yes, this is possible and the vacuum before the turbo even more "sucks" the oil
into the intake.

> What gives?  I know Roger had a similar problem which he described
> as 'PCV oiling' when his engine needed to be rebuilt, but I have good
> compression numbers on all six cylinders.  Could there just be sludge built
> up in an oil drain hole which is preventing it from draining back into the
> pan in that particular passage?

I's also suggest the engine flush with a good oil change as you may have too
much pressure in the crankcase due to some cooked oil in the passages.

> Please help ASAP.  My car is half apart and I need to know what to do.  Any
> ideas appreciated.

Well, I'd say it was to quick to get the engine apart as the source of the
problem has not yet been evaluated. It's not possible to do the flush now but
it's maybe worth to have a turbo shop to take the turbos apart and to replace
the sealings so you'll be sure that not the turbos are the problem. Also make
sure that the IC are taken off the car and be totally cleaned from oil. Damn job
but the only way to assure to get rid of any oil in the intake path.

Roger
93'3000GT TT
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 15:31:35 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Went drag racing today, need some opinions !

> New Accell plug wires

I think I Already mentioned the Accell wires are not recommended on our cars.

> Blitz SSBC set to 1.05 bar

You do not set the SSBC to a specific boost level but you use paramters to set
it. They are maybe off as the SSBC are made for smaller cars with single turbos
(DSM)

> 1/4 mile           - 14.521
> 1/4 mile mph   - 97.05

With more experience, you may brake into the 13s... but I doubt low 13s !

> I was hoping for low 13 second times, and I have seen similar cars going
> 13.2 with 60' times close to mine.

I don't think that they had Accels and a SSBC and you probably went the too
cheap way with your mods :-/

Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 15:31:38 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: New To List/Few Questions..

> 1) I replaced the spark plugs last week. When I did so, I didnt put the

After you checked everything and you are 120% sure that there is no leak you may
disconnec the battery for a while to get the car relearn. The leak you had got
the ECU irritated as the measured air was not the same that went into the intake
plenum and it adjusted. It may adjust again but it is always better to force the
learning mode.

> 2) Do our rear wheels turn the SAME or OPPOSITE direction as the front

As already answered, they turn to the same direction as the front ones.

> 3) Could I get two used 13g turbos off an old automatic Eclipse and use

The exhaust manifold do not line up as well as the intake and outlet of the
turbos.

> 4) I added a Blitz Dual TUrbo Timer about 2 weeks ago, and i've noticed
> that when I put it in gear and floor it, max boost is about .4-.42 BAR. It
> only hits .5-.55 BAR when i SHIFT.. Whats going on? this seems trange..
> Could the wastegate be broken or something? Maybe this has to do with my
> 1st question.. Maybe I have a loose hose somewhere.

You didn't mentioned any boost controller and therefore the bosot is absolutely
ok for older wastegates.

> 5) I added a K&N air filter yesterday, and I definately noticed a
> difference in the pickup..

The ECU will relearn after some miles and with a boost controller the MAS will
become the bigger restriction as the filter. You will not see more than 8hp with
a FIPK but all the other stuff stock !

> way, I am on 9b turbos, the US spec.. not euro spec) How much HP will a
> boost controller set at 1.02 bar add? (not to the wheels, just total.. )

About 60hp, depending on the health of the engine.

> 6) I've heard that our cars loose %33 through the drivetrain... Is that
> accurate? If so, how much does a smaller pulley help?

Pulley doesn't help anything as drivetrain has nothing to do with the pulley.
Our accessories are very low-power consuming and it's not worth to change a
pulley for a 3hp gain but a possible danger for damage due to the loss of a
harmonic balancer.

> 7) If the Euro spec 3kgt's have 13g turbos, how much HP are they rated at?
> (just out of curiosity) and why dont US spec 3kgt's/Stealth's have those
> same turbos?

The difference is that our EU cars are runned on much higher constant speeds.
The 13G discharge temperatures are lower than the 9B (very noticeable difference
on the dyno) but ours do have a little more lag after shifting.

> 8) What QUIET exhaust would you guys recomend? I'm thinking the HKS dual
> tip exhaust. The borla would be nice, but its SOO LOUD!

Keep the stock one unless you go for larger turbos ! Adding a dp and gutting the
precats may help in power but the stock exhaust is good for more than you have
planned.

> 9) How much horsepower can stock 9b turbos hold? What would you guys
> recomend for a streetable car? 15g's?

Wrong question ! You may ask how much boost can the turbos hold on what rpm. If
you are aiming for a nice tourque curve the 13g may be a better solution as the
15g do have more lag. The 15g can hold boost very good up to the redline whily
the 13g also fall off. There discharge temperature is also going dramatically up
after 15psi of boost.

Roger
93'3000GT TT
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 12:11:42 EST
From: TurboDrvn@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Went drag racing today, need some opinions !

Hey Kevin,

    Considering you're just now getting started with 1/4 mile drag
racing....you're doing okay.  

14.5 sec. in the 1/4 mile with a 2.1 sec. 60ft. time is understandable
considering that you did NOT mention that you had an aftermarket air intake
system (like K&N fipk) and NO performance exhaust upgrades.  Are we to
understand that correctly?  YOu still have factory air intake system and
factory exhaust??  I know you gutted your pre-cats and main cat; but what
about the rest of your exhaust?  is it stock?

As for your times:  if you ran a 14.5 1/4 mile @ 97.05mph with a 2.105 60ft.
time; then think about this.....if you improve on your 60ft. times...if you
can get a 1.7 sec. 60ft. time...your 14.5 sec. 1/4 mile time will drop to
about 13.7sec. 1/4 mile time.  For every tenth off of your 60ft. time.....you
can take off two tenths of your final 1/4 mile time...... So with your
current mods on your car.....if you bring your 60ft. time down to 1.7 sec.
60ft. times...you will be running 13.7's in the 1/4!!!!!!!   I hope that
makes sense to you! 

When it comes to drag racing at the 1/4 mile track,  it's all about driving
skills, weight distribution, octane gas, launching skills, etc.  

As for your oil cap leaking.....just get a new factory/stock oil cap (cost is
like $5-$7) as soon as possible......most oil caps begin to leak after years
and lots of  miles.

Do not get disappointed with your times.....in my opinion you're doing
okay....just takes practice.....practice.....PRACTICE!!!!!

good luck!!!

Ahmed "Al-Crazy" - '92 VR4

In a message dated 11/6/99 3:26:11 PM Central Standard Time,
Kevin@pacarsearch.com writes:

<< First the car.
91 Stealth TT
Gutted cat/precats
New NGK plugs gapped to .034"
New Accell plug wires
60k service just done
Blitz SSBC set to 1.05 bar

Now my best time
Temp: 64
Relative humidity: 54
60'                  - 2.105
330'                - 6.007
1/8 mile           - 9.357
1/8 mile MPH - 73.98
1000'              - 12.185
1/4 mile           - 14.521
1/4 mile mph   - 97.05

>From everything I have seen online this is way too slow for my car.  I know
the 60' times were a little slow as I was having trouble launching.  I tried
launching at 5000 - 5500 RPM and dumping the clutch, which was ok but not
neck snapping.  I did launch once trying to slip the clutch but ended up
toasting the clutch.  I was hoping for low 13 second times, and I have seen
similar cars going 13.2 with 60' times close to mine.  What should I look at
first?  The car is running fine, no odd noises, sputtering or any other
signs.  I have noticed the oil cap is leaking after I finished the 60k mile
service. (including new PCV valve)  Could this be related?  Any 1/4 mile
guys out there that can make sense of my times, please speak up.

Thank you,

Kevin Schappell >>
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 12:14:36 -0800
From: "Sam Shelat" <sshelat@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rear brake change ('91 to '94+)

If you set this up like a statics problem, if there is one force applied at
one side, the amount of breaking force = the force applied x the coefficient
of friction of the pads/rotor surface.  If only one force=F is applied to
one side, the non-moving side has an equal but opposite force X its pad/
rotor coefficient.  If there are two forces, the same dynamics apply.
Although the two forces as vectors cancel each other out, there are internal
compressive forces equal to 2 x F.  This means the equal and opposite force
= double the original.  Hence the two piston is double the clamping force of
a single piston.  The areas of frictional contact (pads) stay the same, but
the force is doubled, assuming the same pad area and coefficients.

I have not thought about this in about 6 years during my Engineering
schooling, so some of my ideas
may be in error.  However, this is a relatively simple example and the basic
theory should be correct.

Sam 95 VR4

- -----Original Message-----
From: Kevin <Kevin@pacarsearch.com>
To: Muratokcu@aol.com <Muratokcu@aol.com>; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Friday, November 05, 1999 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rear brake change ('91 to '94+)


>I am sorry to say, but you are wrong.  Double the area, double the force.
>It does not matter if the pistons are opposing or not.
>
>Take care,
>Kevin Schappell
>Auto Answers
>http://www.PACarSearch.com
>If you love cars, check out
>http://www.pacarsearch.com/motorhead
>------------Still under construction---------------
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <Muratokcu@aol.com>
>To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Sent: Friday, November 05, 1999 10:50 PM
>Subject: Re: Team3S: Rear brake change ('91 to '94+)
>
>
>> keep in mind, the pistons are opposing. Therefore, the clamping force is
>> equal between one or two piston calipers even though the piston area is
>> doubled.
>> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 13:00:43 -0800
From: "Sam Shelat" <sshelat@erols.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: wheels

They do not have a web address.  Their phone number is 1800-884-4349.  Look
in the classified section of www.3si.org for details and classified listing.

Sam

- -----Original Message-----
From: Perry Glover <pglover@bznet.com>
To: Sam Shelat <sshelat@erols.com>
Date: Sunday, November 07, 1999 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: wheels


>What is the web address of the site ?????
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Sam Shelat <sshelat@erols.com>
>To: <pglover@bznet.com>
>Sent: Friday, November 05, 1999 9:23 PM
>Subject: wheels
>
>
>> Check arrowtire.  They list the wheels in the classified part of 3si
site.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>>
>
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Nov 1999 15:40:02 -0600
From: xwing <xwing@execpc.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Rear brake change, piston theory

Sam Shelat wrote:

> If you set this up like a statics problem, if there is one force applied at
> one side, the amount of breaking force = the force applied x the coefficient
> of friction of the pads/rotor surface.  If only one force=F is applied to
> one side, the non-moving side has an equal but opposite force X its pad/
> rotor coefficient.  If there are two forces, the same dynamics apply.

- ----You are right about all of that.

> Although the two forces as vectors cancel each other out, there are internal
> compressive forces equal to 2 x F.  This means the equal and opposite force
> = double the original.  Hence the two piston is double the clamping force of
> a single piston.  The areas of frictional contact (pads) stay the same, but
> the force is doubled, assuming the same pad area and coefficients.

- ----But you went wrong here.  Re-read the first paragraph.  There are no
mysterious INTERNAL forces or monkey-motion.  If you press on
one side, there is an equal and opposite force on the OTHER side,
UNLESS the other side's force is LESSER in which case the other side is
being pushed (accelerated by force difference) AWAY.  It is not forced away;
the brake disc is kept centered because the forces are equal and opposite.

The OTHER side consists of either an immovable wall,
or a movable piston.  The force applied is in either case
exactly the SAME, and must equal the force applied by the FIRST piston.

Multiple pistons allow the opposite "wall" to float outward, so as the pads
wear the brake DISC stays centered rather than being forced toward the
immovable side as the immovable side's pad wears down...note how Mitsu
single piston rear, the whole CALIPER floats to avoid this problem; while the
FRONT calipers are solid-mounted -- the opposing pistons float on the immovable
(centered) rotor.

Jack Tertadian

> I have not thought about this in about 6 years during my Engineering schooling
> Sam 95 VR4
>
> From: Kevin <Kevin@pacarsearch.com>
> >I am sorry to say, but you are wrong.  Double the area, double the force.
> >It does not matter if the pistons are opposing or not.
>
>
> >From: <Muratokcu@aol.com>
> >> keep in mind, the pistons are opposing. Therefore, the clamping force is
> >> equal between one or two piston calipers even though the piston area is
> >> doubled.

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 16:35:05 -0600
From: "Benson \"elmagoo\" Russell" <benson@2015.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: New To List/Few Questions..

>Bah, I didnt spend 3 hours on it. :) I pulled out my drill and drilled the
>original air box OFF of the MAS, then used vice grips :) Anyone want my
>air box? :)

Lucky you, I didn't have any power tools available to me :(.

But after hearing the responses regarding the honey-comb pieces, are they
available individually so I can replace the ones that got screwed up?  If
so, can I get them from the dealer, or will I have to go someplace else?  If
someplace else, any ideas or recommendations?

Thanks,

Latuh fuh U,
Benson
benson@2015.com

"-Do you ever have second thoughts?
- -When do I ever have first thoughts?"

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 21:59:54 -0800
From: "Sam Shelat" <sshelat@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Rear brake change, piston theory

Sorry about the second part.  My father is a Mech Eng. and I spoke to him
right after
I posted that.  I am an electrical eng., but no excuses, I should have
thought it out more.
I discussed it with my dad, and he said the other pistons are probably there
to provide
more even pad wear by keeping the force more evenly distributed.

Oh well an attempt
Sam




- -----Original Message-----
From: xwing <xwing@execpc.com>
To: Sirius 3000GT Mail List <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Sunday, November 07, 1999 1:44 PM
Subject: Team3S: Re: Rear brake change, piston theory


>
>
>Sam Shelat wrote:
>
>> If you set this up like a statics problem, if there is one force applied
at
>> one side, the amount of breaking force = the force applied x the
coefficient
>> of friction of the pads/rotor surface.  If only one force=F is applied to
>> one side, the non-moving side has an equal but opposite force X its pad/
>> rotor coefficient.  If there are two forces, the same dynamics apply.
>
>----You are right about all of that.
>
>> Although the two forces as vectors cancel each other out, there are
internal
>> compressive forces equal to 2 x F.  This means the equal and opposite
force
>> = double the original.  Hence the two piston is double the clamping force
of
>> a single piston.  The areas of frictional contact (pads) stay the same,
but
>> the force is doubled, assuming the same pad area and coefficients.
>
>----But you went wrong here.  Re-read the first paragraph.  There are no
>mysterious INTERNAL forces or monkey-motion.  If you press on
>one side, there is an equal and opposite force on the OTHER side,
>UNLESS the other side's force is LESSER in which case the other side is
>being pushed (accelerated by force difference) AWAY.  It is not forced
away;
>the brake disc is kept centered because the forces are equal and opposite.
>
>The OTHER side consists of either an immovable wall,
>or a movable piston.  The force applied is in either case
>exactly the SAME, and must equal the force applied by the FIRST piston.
>
>Multiple pistons allow the opposite "wall" to float outward, so as the pads
>wear the brake DISC stays centered rather than being forced toward the
>immovable side as the immovable side's pad wears down...note how Mitsu
>single piston rear, the whole CALIPER floats to avoid this problem; while
the
>FRONT calipers are solid-mounted -- the opposing pistons float on the
immovable
>(centered) rotor.
>
>Jack Tertadian
>
>> I have not thought about this in about 6 years during my Engineering
schooling
>> Sam 95 VR4
>>
>> From: Kevin <Kevin@pacarsearch.com>
>> >I am sorry to say, but you are wrong.  Double the area, double the
force.
>> >It does not matter if the pistons are opposing or not.
>>
>>
>> >From: <Muratokcu@aol.com>
>> >> keep in mind, the pistons are opposing. Therefore, the clamping force
is
>> >> equal between one or two piston calipers even though the piston area
is
>> >> doubled.
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 22:18:00 -0500
From: "Gil Gomes" <gil@warpedweb.com>
Subject: Team3S: Brake Piston Theory...

Sam.... This post makes more sense than any other I've read in this
thread.  Many times the most simplistic answer is the most correct.
Thanx....
- -Gil

Sorry about the second part.  My father is a Mech Eng. and I spoke to him
right after
I posted that.  I am an electrical eng., but no excuses, I should have
thought it out more.
I discussed it with my dad, and he said the other pistons are probably there
to provide
more even pad wear by keeping the force more evenly distributed.

Oh well an attempt
Sam



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 19:24:15 -0800
From: "Darcy Gunnlaugson" <wce@telus.net>
Subject: Re: Honeycombs was Team3S: New To List/Few Questions..

Benson;

Re the honeycombs: wrecking yards are always a good place to start and
chances are they haven't a clue and may sell cheap...on the other hand you
might have to buy the entire MAS if they are $#i+heads.  Get a dealers price
first so you have an idea of what they're worth but I expect not cheap.

I have heard that there have been favorable removals of these in non TT
applications, but in TT's it is usually the pits. Even in the NA
applications, it's a hit and miss thing.

Best

Darc

- -----Original Message-----
From: Benson "elmagoo" Russell <benson@2015.com>
To: 3000GT Mailing <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Sunday, November 07, 1999 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: New To List/Few Questions..


>>Bah, I didnt spend 3 hours on it. :) I pulled out my drill and drilled the
>>original air box OFF of the MAS, then used vice grips :) Anyone want my
>>air box? :)
>
>Lucky you, I didn't have any power tools available to me :(.
>
>But after hearing the responses regarding the honey-comb pieces, are they
>available individually so I can replace the ones that got screwed up?  If
>so, can I get them from the dealer, or will I have to go someplace else?
If
>someplace else, any ideas or recommendations?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Latuh fuh U,
>Benson
>benson@2015.com
>
>"-Do you ever have second thoughts?
>-When do I ever have first thoughts?"
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 20:39:29 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brake Piston Theory...

The reason for opposing pistons is actually both.  That is, it applies more
evenly distibuted pressure across the pad surface to the disc, and it also
allows floating without having to float the caliper.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
>
> Sam.... This post makes more sense than any other I've read in this
> thread.  Many times the most simplistic answer is the most correct.
> Thanx....
> -Gil

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 01:58:44 -0500
From: Jason Barnhart <phnxgld@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Went drag racing today, need some opinions !

Roger,
    I'm not sure what you are recommending for wires but I hope it's not Magnecor.  I'm
not in the business of making spark plug wires, and I'm no electrical engineer, but what
I do know about electricity is that the less resistance and voltage drop the better.
It's common knowledge (even Magnecor admits it) that their voltage drop isn't very low,
from what I've heard they compare to stock wires on our cars.  At this level of
modifications I doubt any wires would help much.  There are 11 second DSMs running
factory wires.  I myself have run 12s (something I recall you and others telling me I
couldn't do) utilizing Accel wires, and I'm 99.99 percent sure that Mike Mahaffey runs
Accel also.  As far as the boost controller goes maybe we should talk to Jack Tertadian
about running low 12s with a bleeder valve.  I have the feeling it's more than just
driver error, something's not right.  I've run 13.36 with just a filter and pump gas, no
other mods at all.  Worse time ever was a 14.07 and that was with missed gears, pump gas
and just a filter for mods.  Just recently I ran 13.21 with a slipping clutch, failing
2nd gear synchronizer and pump gas, my best 60' was 1.86 if I recall correctly.
    I don't want to scare him, but I think a decent running car with similar mods should
run a slowest 1/4 of 14.5, not a best.  The only way bad driving would make that much of
a difference should be if it was so bad he knew it was a problem and he probably
wouldn't have written in asking for help.  I would suggest checking the boost controller
install and also checking to see what kind of boost it's actually making, preferably
with a nice boost gauge.  What kind of altitude are you at?
    I really don't want to step on anyone's toes but I think such comments should be
stated more like the opinions they are.  Wording like this would suggest that it's
common knowledge that Accel wires are junk, that's just not the case.  The only reason I
would say that low 13s aren't possible is given the facts that we have in this
particular situation, his car isn't running well.  In my opinion, with more experience
and a well running car, low 13s and high 12s are a possibility.

Jason
http://www.erols.com/danebar

>
> > New Accell plug wires
>
> I think I Already mentioned the Accell wires are not recommended on our cars.
>
> > Blitz SSBC set to 1.05 bar
>
> You do not set the SSBC to a specific boost level but you use paramters to set
> it. They are maybe off as the SSBC are made for smaller cars with single turbos
> (DSM)
>
> > 1/4 mile           - 14.521
> > 1/4 mile mph   - 97.05
>
> With more experience, you may brake into the 13s... but I doubt low 13s !
>
> > I was hoping for low 13 second times, and I have seen similar cars going
> > 13.2 with 60' times close to mine.
>
> I don't think that they had Accels and a SSBC and you probably went the too
> cheap way with your mods :-/
>
> Roger
> 93'3000GT TT
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



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