--
From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
(Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Team3S Digest V1 #273
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Errors-To:
owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Precedence:
bulk
Team3S Digest Wednesday,
September 1 1999 Volume 01 : Number
273
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Mon, 30 Aug 1999 07:09:59 -0500
From: Jeff Crabtree <wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Mr. 3000GT, meet Mr. Curb
wce@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:
> Hi
Erik;
>
> Given the stopping distance ( 2 feet onto the sidewalk)
you weren't moving very fast,
> and obviously had your foot into the
brakes before imapct. . If everything you have
> discribed is accurate,
then a good front end shop where they do AWD alignments should
> fix you
up perfectly. Just have them check other steering/suspension components up
front
> when you take it in for the work (stand there and watch them so
you know it really does
> need a new tie rod, etc)
FOR GOD'S
SAKE....WHATEVER YOU DO, DO NOT GO TO A MUFFLER/ALIGNMENT IN A
BOX
PLACE....THEY'LL MAKE IT WORSE!
Places like Midas or Meineke or
Car X are fine if they are working on something simple, but
I promise you,
your car will be worse if you end up at one of those shops. I.M.H.O One
of
the best moves I ever made was taking my car to a Firestone shop and
purchasing their
Lifetime warranted alignment...cost me something on the
order of $140 but has paid for
itself many times over. It's been my
experience that the guys at Firestone seem to know
what they are doing fairly
well. Someone once told me, and I quote "An alignment rack is
only as
good as the guy working it."
- --
- -Jeff
Crabtree
'91 Stealth R/T
Turbo(#499)
'93
Wrangler 4.0L
Sport
St. Louis, MO
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 07:37:31 -0700
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Mr. 3000GT, meet Mr. Curb
Jeff;
I prefaced my advise
with "take it to a <GOOD> front end shop" which preempties the notion
of
the likes of Mitus and the boys. It is just as well that you bring
this the fore, however, as
there is always the chance that there are
uninformed souls who erroneously consider these rip
off joints as
good. Going to one once usually satisfies this misconception, and usually
anyone
with a quality car like ours is already long aware of
this.
Darc
Jeff Crabtree wrote:
> wce@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:
>
>
> Hi Erik;
> >
> > Given the stopping distance ( 2 feet
onto the sidewalk) you weren't moving very fast,
> > and obviously had
your foot into the brakes before imapct. . If everything you have
> >
discribed is accurate, then a good front end shop where they do AWD alignments
should
> > fix you up perfectly. Just have them check other
steering/suspension components up front
> > when you take it in for the
work (stand there and watch them so you know it really does
> > need a
new tie rod, etc)
>
> FOR GOD'S SAKE....WHATEVER YOU DO, DO NOT GO
TO A MUFFLER/ALIGNMENT IN A BOX
> PLACE....THEY'LL MAKE IT
WORSE!
>
> Places like Midas or Meineke or Car X are fine if they
are working on something simple, but
> I promise you, your car will be
worse if you end up at one of those shops. I.M.H.O One of
> the best
moves I ever made was taking my car to a Firestone shop and purchasing
their
> Lifetime warranted alignment...cost me something on the order of
$140 but has paid for
> itself many times over. It's been my
experience that the guys at Firestone seem to know
> what they are doing
fairly well. Someone once told me, and I quote "An alignment rack
is
> only as good as the guy working it."
>
> --
> -Jeff
Crabtree
> '91 Stealth R/T
Turbo(#499)
>
'93 Wrangler 4.0L
Sport
>
St. Louis, MO
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 07:49:35 -0700
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Aluminum y-pipe
LOL...a number of people have replied about
my request for whoever is
fabricating y-pipes with questions about the "bungy
cord mod", so I thought
I'd send the response back to the
list.
Simple...you take a bungy cord, wrap it around the y-pipe by the
mounting
hanger (just before the bend to the plenum), then stretch it tightly
across
the plenum and attach the other end to the hard pipe on the opposite
side
(of the plenum). I added a sheet of gasket material under the cord (over
the
plenum) as I believe the heat will deteriorate the bungy cord quickly.
I
also removed the hook on the hard pipe side and tied it off in a knot,
then
secured it with a cable tie. As I said, not pretty, but it WILL prevent
the
y-pipe from blowing off under boost. I'm not sure, but I think
this
originally came from Bob Fontana, Jack T, or Barry King.
Looking
forward...Chris ('95 VR4 w/y-pipe bungy cord mod)
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Michael [mailto:mdorsey@mindspring.com]
Sent:
Monday, August 30, 1999 6:05 PM
To: 'Chris Winkley'
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Aluminum y-pipe
What is the bungy cord mod. I've been using the
super glue mod <G>, and
it's not working very
well.
Michael
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of
> Chris Winkley
> Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999
17:59
> To: 'Team3S'
> Subject: Team3S: Aluminum
y-pipe
>
>
> Folks...
>
> Isn't somebody making a
set of aluminum y-pipes? The lip on
> my stock y-pipe
> is broken
and I'm having to use the infamous "bungy cord
> mod". Works fine,
>
but sure doesn't look very nice. E-mail me privately. Thanks!!!
>
>
Looking forward...Chris
>
> 1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 09:20:17 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject:
Alignment Stuff WAS: Team3S: Mr. 3000GT, meet Mr. Curb
Thanks for
all the advice, guys!
> I.M.H.O One of the best moves I ever made was
taking my car
> to a Firestone shop and purchasing their
> Lifetime
warranted alignment...
Yep, been there, done that, got the lifetime
booklet:) Took it in yesterday
afternoon:
BTW, car was aligned
to perfect toe and almost perfect camber in June
Front Toe: (L) -5/16"
(R) -5/32"
Front Camber: (L) -0.1 (R) -1.3
Front Caster: (L) 3.9 (R)
3.4 (right was 3.8 in June)
Rear was off a little, but not too
much.
Questions:
1) Caster isn't adjustable on out cars,
right? (BTW, what exactly IS
the caster angle -
physically?) Have never needed to pay attention to
it:)
2) Is it unreasonable for me to ask them to get the camber to
within
- -0.1 <-> 0.1 and the toe to 0"? How much of a PITA am I
being if I have
those requests?
3) Regarding the rear toe adjustment
(on a NA 2WS car): There's this
adjustment cam down there, right?
And to adjust it, you loosen the nut on
the rear, rotate the bolt head on the
front to adjust the toe, and then
tighten the nut back down on the rear,
right? Well, the guy at Firestone
(worked with him before and
semi-trust him) said that the flat spot on the
cam has rounded out the hole
in the rear washer, and thus he can't really
get my rear toe back in
alignment (it's at -13/32 now!) So he says I need a
new cam (and washer
and nut). $5 at the dealership, but they have to order
it:( Does
this(needing a new cam before the toe can be adjusted)
sound
reasonable?
4) Also regarding the rear toe
adjustment: the guy at Firestone told
(and showed) me the metal ring
(guess it's not really a washer, but...)
that's welded to the car and
surrounds the big washer on the end of the
adjustment cam (on the front side
of it where the tick marks are for turning
the bolt head). Anyway, the
bottom of the metal ring is still welded to the
car, but the top part looks
like it's "peeling off." The guy's
recommendation was that I get the
metal ring re-welded because that's
supposed to be pretty critical to the
adjustment. I got up under there last
night and took a look. The
service manual shows the bolt to turn to adjust
toe, but it doesn't show how
it actually works or if the metal ring is
really crucial. Anyone care
to elaborate or comment?
Thanks!
- --Erik
-
------
----------
Erik
Gross
DuPont, WA
'95 Pearl White 3000GT (base,
DOHC)
59,000 mi
Firestone Firehawk 245/50/ZR16 tires, stock wheels
Magnacor KV85
spark plug wires, NGK plugs @ 0.040"
K&N FIPK (57-1500), resonator
intact
Mobil 1 10W30 Synthetic w/ OEM oil filter
Occasionally ticking lash
adjusters, working on solution
-
------
----------
"For we are so little reconciled to time that we are
even
astonished at it ... we exclaim, 'How time flies!' as
though
the universal form of our experience were again and again
a
novelty. It is as strange as if a fish were repeatedly
surprised at the wetness of water. And that would
be
strange indeed, unless of course the fish were destined
to
become, one day, a land
animal."
--C. S. Lewis, Reflections on the Psalms
-
-------------------------------------------------------------
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:36:43 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Adventures in braking
I don't want to make you folks on the left
and right coasts sick, but there
are advantages to living in Iowa.
I
took my rotors to my friendly brake & muffler shop to get them turned
and
cleaned up (one was scored from running a pad down, and one just had
some
carbon ridges builtup). Price: $10 -- that's for BOTH. Not $10 each,
$10
for both.
These were Porterfield cryogenically treated rotors,
and the shop reported
a slight warpage in the one I scored.
This
emphasizes once again the importance of getting air to the brakes
during
competition.
It also shows that even Porterfields will warp if you get them
hot enough.
Rich/old poop/94 VR4/somebody stop me!
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:57:10 -0700
From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Injector duty & new Apexi AVC-R
My new Apexi AVC-R arrived
last week. What a beautiful piece of equipment!
Some of it's features
include: boost set points at up to eight different
specifyable RPM
ranges; gear based learning; monitoring of up to 4
different
channels simultaneously in simulated analog gauge (max 2
simultaneously),
digitial readout (with hold & peak hold features), or
real time graphs (with up
to 30 second record/playback).
Anyway, I've
installed it ('91 VR4, K&N FIPK, .035 NKG's, stock turbos &
fuel
system) and have been playing/tuning with it for the last 5 days.
One of the
things I've noticed is that at WOT the injector duty cycle will
hit 100% at
about 5000 RPM, regardless of boost setting (well maybe only 90%
at 9psi).
I have a few of questions for those of you with DataLoggers and
EGT gauges: can
I really run boost at1.05 kg/cm^2 at 5000+ RPM even
though the IDC maxes out
(will I be too lean and/or encounter
detonation)? Is it safe to run higher
boost, say 1.15 or 1.20 from
2500-4000 RPM, then decrease to 1.05 or even .95 by
5000+ RPM?
I did
notice on Roger's recent datalogger plot that he appears to reach 100% IDC
at
about 5200 RPM and knock detection at about 5800 RPM. Perhaps I should
set
boost to .95 at 5500+ RPM even though 9B's may not hold
that.
Thanks in advance,
Ken
- --
I feel like I'm diagonally
parked in a parallel universe.
Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General
Atomics
San Diego
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:21:29 -0700
From: "Dr. John A. Tabler" <jtabler@summitmicro.com>
Subject:
Team3S: transfer case fluid level
I am having trouble with the check/fill
port on my front transfer
case. The port is situated so that I
really can't get at it to inspect
the fluid level. I've tried dental
mirrors and all sorts of gadgets.
I think I might just drain the fluid and
replace it with the specified
volume, but even access for filling is
tricky. I am envisioning some
sort of turkey baster + length of
small plastic hose arrangement to
refill it... There has GOT to
be a better way. Any suggestions?
I have a '92 VR-4. The
level should be about 0.5" below the hole. As
the transfer case
thickness is about 3/4", I can't even get my finger in
there. The
Mitsubishi book indicates that beginning in 1993 a third
'level check' port
was added, and the proper level at the new port is
flush with the bottom of
the hole. uh-hu.
I'm going to check the rear axle fluid
level as well. Any suggestions
on replacement
fluids?
Thanks,
JAT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:19:57 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Re: Alignment Stuff...
- -----Original Message-----From: Gross, Erik
<erik.gross@intel.com>
-
---------snip--------
>Questions:
>1) Caster isn't adjustable on out
cars, right? (BTW, what exactly IS
>the caster angle -
physically?) Have never needed to pay attention
to
it:)
{From the description at www.TireRack.com}: If you think back to
your
bicycle and remember how the tire tilted slightly when turned,
that
was caster causing the tilt. If you drew an imaginary line through
the
upper and lower ball joints and compared the angle of difference to
a
line drawn perpindicular to the ground, the resulting difference is
the
caster angle. Caster settings allow the manufacturer to balance
low speed
steering effort and high speed stability. Increasing the
amount of positive
caster will increase low speed steering effort, but
improve high speed
stability. Caster also tends to cause an increase
in the amount of negative
camber as the steering angle is increased.
>2) Is it unreasonable
for me to ask them to get the camber to within
>-0.1 <-> 0.1 and the
toe to 0"? How much of a PITA am I being if I
have
>those
requests?
I'm certainly no expert, but I don't think that's
unreasonable...
But the acceptable range for both front and rear camber is
from -.5 to
+.5 , so in practical terms, anything in that range is OK.
I just had
my Eibachs put on and the adjustments were difficult, to say
the
least, but they still managed to get it to +.1... Be a PITA
and
insist on it. I did, and they worked at it until they got
it.
For the front toe, the acceptable range is -.06" to +.06", so 0"
is
not unreasonable either, but in practical terms, 1/100" inch either
way
would not be awful. For the rear toe, the acceptable range
is -.04" to
+.06", so you don't want 0" as your target setting, you
want +.01".
Again, +/- 1/100" relative to that is not bad, IMO.
>3) Regarding
the rear toe adjustment (on a NA 2WS car): There's this
>adjustment
cam down there, right? And to adjust it, you loosen the
nut
on
>the rear, rotate the bolt head on the front to adjust the toe,
and
then
>tighten the nut back down on the rear, right? Well, the
guy at
Firestone
>(worked with him before and semi-trust him) said that
the flat spot
on the
>cam has rounded out the hole in the rear washer,
and thus he can't
really
>get my rear toe back in alignment (it's at
-13/32 now!) So he says I
need a
>new cam (and washer and
nut). $5 at the dealership, but they have to
order
>it:(
Does this(needing a new cam before the toe can be
adjusted)
sound
>reasonable?
Mine is also an NT ('94 Stealth),
and the dealer's alignment guys
trashed mine, and it took several days to get
the eccentric head cam
bolts that are required. Without them, you can't
get even near spec.
Since I was installing aftermarket springs, even WITH the
new bolts,
the best they could do without messing things up was -8/32"
(-.25"),
and I was happy to get that... But if you're adjusting a stock
setup,
they should get you close to the ideal +.1".
>4) Also
regarding the rear toe adjustment: the guy at Firestone told
>(and
showed) me the metal ring (guess it's not really a
washer,
but...)
>that's welded to the car and surrounds the big washer
on the end of
the
>adjustment cam (on the front side of it where the
tick marks are for
turning
>the bolt head). Anyway, the bottom of
the metal ring is still welded
to the
>car, but the top part looks like
it's "peeling off." The guy's
>recommendation was that I get the
metal ring re-welded because that's
>supposed to be pretty critical to the
adjustment. I got up under
there last
>night and took a
look. The service manual shows the bolt to turn to
adjust
>toe,
but it doesn't show how it actually works or if the metal
ring
is
>really crucial. Anyone care to elaborate or
comment?
One of the other guys on the list recommended welding the
washers in
place (mine needed replacement), and so I asked the alignment
manager
to do so. They didn't argue, so I guess it's the proper
method... My
guy put everything on without welding first, so he could
see if it
should be welded off-center (I don't know if it ended up off
center
from the hole, but it was the right procedure). Then he
removed
everything, did the weld, and then did the install.
BTW, the
settings I mentioned above are for all FWD Stealth, 91 > 96.
And just so
you have all the info I have here on the readouts, the
caster range is 3.42
to 4.42, nominal 3.92. Hope I helped you
out.
Forrest
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:32:06 EDT
From: TrboDrvr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re:
Alignment Stuff...
Speaking of Alignments, there is this company that
advertises a
"do-it-yourself" alignment guage that you can use to align your
car at home.
It is advertised in the September Turbo Magazine. I
called the guy last week
and he told me that the guage is very accurate on
wheels up to 18". Does
anyone have any experience with such
guages? The guage is about $154. I
thought it might be worth the
money since everyone around the Pittsburgh PA
area that so much as looks at
my car somehow manages to screw something up on
it!
Thanks for any
input. Joe.
91TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:24:18 CDT
From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: transfer case fluid level
An easy way to check your fluid
level is to use a paper clip and bend it
like this: |-| If
you bend it like and upside down U and then stick it in
the check hole and
pull it out and see how far up the one side of the U the
oil reaches.
I saw a Mitsu tech do this once. ;)
Go to: http://3si.org/fluids.html for
recomendations on fluids.
later,
Curt
http://www.mn3s.org
>From: "Dr.
John A. Tabler" <jtabler@summitmicro.com>
>To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>Subject:
Team3S: transfer case fluid level
>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:21:29
-0700
>
>I am having trouble with the check/fill port on my front
transfer
>case. The port is situated so that I really can't
get at it to inspect
>the fluid level. I've tried dental mirrors and
all sorts of gadgets.
>I think I might just drain the fluid and replace it
with the specified
>volume, but even access for filling is tricky. I
am envisioning some
>sort of turkey baster + length of small plastic
hose arrangement to
>refill it... There has GOT to be a better
way. Any suggestions?
>
>I have a '92 VR-4. The level
should be about 0.5" below the hole. As
>the transfer case thickness
is about 3/4", I can't even get my finger in
>there. The Mitsubishi
book indicates that beginning in 1993 a third
>'level check' port was
added, and the proper level at the new port is
>flush with the bottom of
the hole. uh-hu.
>
>I'm going to check the rear
axle fluid level as well. Any suggestions
>on replacement
fluids?
>
>Thanks,
>JAT
>
>For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:25:23 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Injector duty & new Apexi AVC-R
Hi Ken,
>monitoring
of up to 4 different channels simultaneously in simulated analog
> gauge
(max 2 simultaneously), digitial readout (with hold & peak
hold
features),
What are the 4 channels ?? I know IDC% but what else
?
>things I've noticed is that at WOT the injector duty cycle will hit
100% at
>about 5000 RPM, regardless of boost setting (well maybe only 90%
at 9psi).
At WOT the ECU just selects the values from a table with only
regarding the
air mass information. This values are always very rich and max
the injectors
totally out to 100% around 5200, depending on the
ambient.
>I have a few of questions for those of you with DataLoggers
and EGT gauges:
can
>I really run boost at1.05 kg/cm^2 at 5000+ RPM
even though the IDC maxes
out
>(will I be too lean and/or encounter
detonation)? Is it safe to run higher
>boost, say 1.15 or 1.20 from
2500-4000 RPM, then decrease to 1.05 or even
.95 by
>5000+
RPM?
Full power is around 5500 to 6000 but the torque alrteady comes down
then
and the torque area is where normally knock is found. A lot people
where
suprised we find knock above this area and this is why it is called
high
speed knock.
When I run 1.05bar max (peak) with about 1.00bar
sustained boost the
injectors are always maxed out heavily. But the logs show
that the knock
amount counted by the ECU is not enough for causing the ECU to
do anything.
The timing gets retarded for knock sums above 18-20 by only 2-3
degrees but
this never happens with 1.05 peak. Also the O2 sensor always
shows a rich
value of 0.90 - 0.94 volts. Increasing boost to 1.1 peak (with
1.05
sustained) knock increases up to 36 and the timing is retarded by around
4-5
degrees due to this. The O2 voltage drops to 0.86-0.88 volts what is
still
in the good range.
>I did notice on Roger's recent datalogger
plot that he appears to reach
100% IDC
>at about 5200 RPM and knock
detection at about 5800 RPM. Perhaps I should
set
>boost to .95
at 5500+ RPM even though 9B's may not hold that.
Unfortunately, I can't
log the boost already (I need a second notebook) and
this is why I can't say
hjow much boost I had during the logs but for sure
the sustained boost was
still there when knock started at 5500. It didn't
went away up to 6400 where
I usually have to slow down. The most knock is
found in 3rd (1st gen)
although some is also found in 1st and second (peak
situation). With boost
peak to 1.05kg/cm2 there is no knock in the lower
gears.
Mike has an
EGT in the front turbo and at the Autobahn with very high speed
he noticed
the temp to go up heavily (can't remember if it was 850) Also on
the dyno we
saw the timing retarded at 1.05 and he couldn't reach the power
like mine or
Jims Stealth. He then pulled the plugs (the thing was damn hot)
and the
within an hour we regapped the plugs to 0.034 and the retard went
away on the
first test run. The recorded dyno run then was done on less than
1.00 kg/cm2
and this is why his curve is lower than the others. As he drove
back on the
autobahn he saw lower EGTs then with the same boost as before.
With the
ability to set boost even on different rpm you should adapt this to
the
torque curve. Take Jims dyno sheet and increase boost at the valley
between
3000 and 4800 to flatten it out on the higher level. Maybe 5-7% as
the max
torque decrease was about 7%. This would be around 1.12 bar on this
level.
3000 should not be higher as then the hearable knock would start
there at
first.
Therefore the settings can be the following for a start :
2700
: 1.05
4200 : 1.12
5000 : 1.05
5200 : 1.00
5500 : 1.00
This
is just an idea and you can use the other three settigns for more in
the
higher area but as you said, the 9B will probably not be able to
hold
boost.
Let us know how the thing works
Roger
93'3000GT
TT
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