--

From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com (Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S Digest V1 #273
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Errors-To: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Precedence: bulk


Team3S Digest       Wednesday, September 1 1999       Volume 01 : Number 273




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 07:09:59 -0500
From: Jeff Crabtree <wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Mr. 3000GT, meet Mr. Curb

wce@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:

> Hi Erik;
>
> Given the stopping distance ( 2 feet onto the sidewalk) you weren't moving very fast,
> and obviously had your foot into the brakes before imapct. . If everything you have
> discribed is accurate, then a good front end shop where they do AWD alignments should
> fix you up perfectly. Just have them check other steering/suspension components up front
> when you take it in for the work (stand there and watch them so you know it really does
> need a new tie rod, etc)

FOR GOD'S SAKE....WHATEVER YOU DO, DO NOT GO TO A MUFFLER/ALIGNMENT IN A BOX
PLACE....THEY'LL MAKE IT WORSE!

Places like Midas or Meineke or Car X are fine if they are working on something simple, but
I promise you, your car will be worse if you end up at one of those shops.  I.M.H.O One of
the best moves I ever made was taking my car to a Firestone shop and purchasing their
Lifetime warranted alignment...cost me something on the order of $140 but has paid for
itself many times over.  It's been my experience that the guys at Firestone seem to know
what they are doing fairly well.  Someone once told me, and I quote "An alignment rack is
only as good as the guy working it."




- --
- -Jeff Crabtree
    '91 Stealth R/T Turbo(#499)
          '93 Wrangler 4.0L Sport
               St. Louis, MO


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 07:37:31 -0700
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Team3S: Mr. 3000GT, meet Mr. Curb

Jeff;

 I prefaced my advise with "take it to a <GOOD> front end shop" which preempties the notion of
the likes of  Mitus and the boys. It is just as well that you bring this the fore, however, as
there is always the chance that there are uninformed souls  who erroneously consider these rip
off joints as  good. Going to one once usually satisfies this misconception, and usually anyone
with a quality car like ours is already long aware of this.

Darc

Jeff Crabtree wrote:

> wce@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:
>
> > Hi Erik;
> >
> > Given the stopping distance ( 2 feet onto the sidewalk) you weren't moving very fast,
> > and obviously had your foot into the brakes before imapct. . If everything you have
> > discribed is accurate, then a good front end shop where they do AWD alignments should
> > fix you up perfectly. Just have them check other steering/suspension components up front
> > when you take it in for the work (stand there and watch them so you know it really does
> > need a new tie rod, etc)
>
> FOR GOD'S SAKE....WHATEVER YOU DO, DO NOT GO TO A MUFFLER/ALIGNMENT IN A BOX
> PLACE....THEY'LL MAKE IT WORSE!
>
> Places like Midas or Meineke or Car X are fine if they are working on something simple, but
> I promise you, your car will be worse if you end up at one of those shops.  I.M.H.O One of
> the best moves I ever made was taking my car to a Firestone shop and purchasing their
> Lifetime warranted alignment...cost me something on the order of $140 but has paid for
> itself many times over.  It's been my experience that the guys at Firestone seem to know
> what they are doing fairly well.  Someone once told me, and I quote "An alignment rack is
> only as good as the guy working it."
>
> --
> -Jeff Crabtree
>     '91 Stealth R/T Turbo(#499)
>           '93 Wrangler 4.0L Sport
>                St. Louis, MO
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 07:49:35 -0700
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Aluminum y-pipe

LOL...a number of people have replied about my request for whoever is
fabricating y-pipes with questions about the "bungy cord mod", so I thought
I'd send the response back to the list.

Simple...you take a bungy cord, wrap it around the y-pipe by the mounting
hanger (just before the bend to the plenum), then stretch it tightly across
the plenum and attach the other end to the hard pipe on the opposite side
(of the plenum). I added a sheet of gasket material under the cord (over the
plenum) as I believe the heat will deteriorate the bungy cord quickly. I
also removed the hook on the hard pipe side and tied it off in a knot, then
secured it with a cable tie. As I said, not pretty, but it WILL prevent the
y-pipe from blowing off under boost. I'm not sure, but I think this
originally came from Bob Fontana, Jack T, or Barry King.

Looking forward...Chris ('95 VR4 w/y-pipe bungy cord mod)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael [mailto:mdorsey@mindspring.com]
Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 6:05 PM
To: 'Chris Winkley'
Subject: RE: Team3S: Aluminum y-pipe


What is the bungy cord mod.  I've been using the super glue mod <G>, and
it's not working very well.

Michael


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of
> Chris Winkley
> Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 17:59
> To: 'Team3S'
> Subject: Team3S: Aluminum y-pipe
>
>
> Folks...
>
> Isn't somebody making a set of aluminum y-pipes? The lip on
> my stock y-pipe
> is broken and I'm having to use the infamous "bungy cord
> mod". Works fine,
> but sure doesn't look very nice. E-mail me privately. Thanks!!!
>
> Looking forward...Chris
>
> 1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 09:20:17 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: Alignment Stuff  WAS: Team3S: Mr. 3000GT, meet Mr. Curb

Thanks for all the advice, guys!

> I.M.H.O One of the best moves I ever made was taking my car
> to a Firestone shop and purchasing their
> Lifetime warranted alignment...

Yep, been there, done that, got the lifetime booklet:)  Took it in yesterday
afternoon:

BTW, car was aligned to perfect toe and almost perfect camber in June

Front Toe: (L) -5/16" (R) -5/32"
Front Camber: (L) -0.1  (R) -1.3
Front Caster: (L) 3.9 (R) 3.4 (right was 3.8 in June)

Rear was off a little, but not too much.


Questions:
1) Caster isn't adjustable on out cars, right?  (BTW, what exactly IS
the caster angle - physically?)   Have never needed to pay attention to it:)


2) Is it unreasonable for me to ask them to get the camber to within
- -0.1 <-> 0.1 and the toe to 0"?  How much of a PITA am I being if I have
those requests?

3) Regarding the rear toe adjustment (on a NA 2WS car):  There's this
adjustment cam down there, right?  And to adjust it, you loosen the nut on
the rear, rotate the bolt head on the front to adjust the toe, and then
tighten the nut back down on the rear, right?  Well, the guy at Firestone
(worked with him before and semi-trust him) said that the flat spot on the
cam has rounded out the hole in the rear washer, and thus he can't really
get my rear toe back in alignment (it's at -13/32 now!)  So he says I need a
new cam (and washer and nut).  $5 at the dealership, but they have to order
it:(  Does this(needing a new cam before the toe can be adjusted) sound
reasonable? 

4) Also regarding the rear toe adjustment:  the guy at Firestone told
(and showed) me the metal ring (guess it's not really a washer, but...)
that's welded to the car and surrounds the big washer on the end of the
adjustment cam (on the front side of it where the tick marks are for turning
the bolt head).  Anyway, the bottom of the metal ring is still welded to the
car, but the top part looks like it's "peeling off."  The guy's
recommendation was that I get the metal ring re-welded because that's
supposed to be pretty critical to the adjustment.  I got up under there last
night and took a look.  The service manual shows the bolt to turn to adjust
toe, but it doesn't show how it actually works or if the metal ring is
really crucial.  Anyone care to elaborate or comment?


Thanks!
- --Erik
- ------                                             ----------
Erik Gross                                         DuPont, WA
'95 Pearl White 3000GT (base, DOHC)                 59,000 mi
Firestone Firehawk 245/50/ZR16 tires, stock wheels
Magnacor KV85 spark plug wires, NGK plugs @ 0.040"
K&N FIPK (57-1500), resonator intact
Mobil 1 10W30 Synthetic w/ OEM oil filter
Occasionally ticking lash adjusters, working on solution
- ------                                             ----------
"For we are so little reconciled to time that we are even
 astonished at it ... we exclaim, 'How time flies!' as though
 the universal form of our experience were again and again a
 novelty.  It is as strange as if a fish were repeatedly
 surprised at the wetness of water.  And that would be
 strange indeed, unless of course the fish were destined to
 become, one day, a land animal."
                    --C. S. Lewis,  Reflections on the Psalms
- -------------------------------------------------------------
 
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:36:43 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Adventures in braking

I don't want to make you folks on the left and right coasts sick, but there
are advantages to living in Iowa.

I took my rotors to my friendly brake & muffler shop to get them turned and
cleaned up (one was scored from running a pad down, and one just had some
carbon ridges builtup). Price: $10 -- that's for BOTH. Not $10 each, $10
for both.

These were Porterfield cryogenically treated rotors, and the shop reported
a slight warpage in the one I scored.
This emphasizes once again the importance of getting air to the brakes
during competition.
It also shows that even Porterfields will warp if you get them hot enough.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4/somebody stop me!


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:57:10 -0700
From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject: Team3S: Injector duty & new Apexi AVC-R

My new Apexi AVC-R arrived last week.  What a beautiful piece of equipment!
Some of it's features include:  boost set points at up to eight different
specifyable RPM ranges;  gear based learning;  monitoring of up to 4 different
channels simultaneously in simulated analog gauge (max 2 simultaneously),
digitial readout (with hold & peak hold features), or real time graphs (with up
to 30 second record/playback).

Anyway, I've installed it ('91 VR4, K&N FIPK, .035 NKG's, stock turbos & fuel
system) and have been playing/tuning with it for the last 5 days.  One of the
things I've noticed is that at WOT the injector duty cycle will hit 100% at
about 5000 RPM, regardless of boost setting (well maybe only 90% at 9psi).

I have a few of questions for those of you with DataLoggers and EGT gauges:  can
I really run boost at1.05 kg/cm^2 at 5000+ RPM even though the IDC maxes out
(will I be too lean and/or encounter detonation)?  Is it safe to run higher
boost, say 1.15 or 1.20 from 2500-4000 RPM, then decrease to 1.05 or even .95 by
5000+ RPM?

I did notice on Roger's recent datalogger plot that he appears to reach 100% IDC
at about 5200 RPM and knock detection at about 5800 RPM.  Perhaps I should set
boost to .95 at 5500+ RPM even though 9B's may not hold that.

Thanks in advance,
Ken
- --
I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:21:29 -0700
From: "Dr. John A. Tabler" <jtabler@summitmicro.com>
Subject: Team3S: transfer case fluid level

I am having trouble with the check/fill port on my front transfer
case.   The port is situated so that I really can't get at it to inspect
the fluid level.  I've tried dental mirrors and all sorts of gadgets.
I think I might just drain the fluid and replace it with the specified
volume, but even access for filling is tricky.  I am envisioning some
sort of turkey baster  + length of small plastic hose arrangement to
refill it...   There has GOT to be a better way.  Any suggestions?

I have a '92 VR-4.  The level should be about 0.5" below the hole.  As
the transfer case thickness is about 3/4", I can't even get my finger in
there.  The Mitsubishi book indicates that beginning in 1993 a third
'level check' port was added, and the proper level at the new port is
flush with the bottom of the hole.    uh-hu.

I'm going to check the rear axle fluid level as well.  Any suggestions
on replacement fluids?

Thanks,
JAT

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:19:57 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Alignment Stuff...

- -----Original Message-----From: Gross, Erik <erik.gross@intel.com>
- ---------snip--------
>Questions:
>1) Caster isn't adjustable on out cars, right?  (BTW, what exactly IS
>the caster angle - physically?)   Have never needed to pay attention
to it:)

{From the description at www.TireRack.com}:  If you think back to your
bicycle and remember how the tire tilted slightly when turned, that
was caster causing the tilt. If you drew an imaginary line through the
upper and lower ball joints and compared the angle of difference to a
line drawn perpindicular to the ground, the resulting difference is
the caster angle. Caster settings allow the manufacturer to balance
low speed steering effort and high speed stability. Increasing the
amount of positive caster will increase low speed steering effort, but
improve high speed stability. Caster also tends to cause an increase
in the amount of negative camber as the steering angle is increased.


>2) Is it unreasonable for me to ask them to get the camber to within
>-0.1 <-> 0.1 and the toe to 0"?  How much of a PITA am I being if I
have
>those requests?

I'm certainly no expert, but I don't think that's unreasonable...
But the acceptable range for both front and rear camber is from -.5 to
+.5 , so in practical terms, anything in that range is OK.  I just had
my Eibachs put on and the adjustments were difficult, to say the
least, but they still managed to get it to +.1...  Be a PITA and
insist on it.  I did, and they worked at it until they got it.

For the front toe, the acceptable range is -.06" to +.06", so 0" is
not unreasonable either, but in practical terms, 1/100" inch either
way would not be awful.  For the rear toe, the acceptable range
is -.04" to +.06", so you don't want 0" as your target setting, you
want +.01".  Again, +/- 1/100" relative to that is not bad, IMO.


>3) Regarding the rear toe adjustment (on a NA 2WS car):  There's this
>adjustment cam down there, right?  And to adjust it, you loosen the
nut on
>the rear, rotate the bolt head on the front to adjust the toe, and
then
>tighten the nut back down on the rear, right?  Well, the guy at
Firestone
>(worked with him before and semi-trust him) said that the flat spot
on the
>cam has rounded out the hole in the rear washer, and thus he can't
really
>get my rear toe back in alignment (it's at -13/32 now!)  So he says I
need a
>new cam (and washer and nut).  $5 at the dealership, but they have to
order
>it:(  Does this(needing a new cam before the toe can be adjusted)
sound
>reasonable?

Mine is also an NT ('94 Stealth), and the dealer's alignment guys
trashed mine, and it took several days to get the eccentric head cam
bolts that are required.  Without them, you can't get even near spec.
Since I was installing aftermarket springs, even WITH the new bolts,
the best they could do without messing things up was -8/32" (-.25"),
and I was happy to get that...  But if you're adjusting a stock setup,
they should get you close to the ideal +.1".


>4) Also regarding the rear toe adjustment:  the guy at Firestone told
>(and showed) me the metal ring (guess it's not really a washer,
but...)
>that's welded to the car and surrounds the big washer on the end of
the
>adjustment cam (on the front side of it where the tick marks are for
turning
>the bolt head).  Anyway, the bottom of the metal ring is still welded
to the
>car, but the top part looks like it's "peeling off."  The guy's
>recommendation was that I get the metal ring re-welded because that's
>supposed to be pretty critical to the adjustment.  I got up under
there last
>night and took a look.  The service manual shows the bolt to turn to
adjust
>toe, but it doesn't show how it actually works or if the metal ring
is
>really crucial.  Anyone care to elaborate or comment?

One of the other guys on the list recommended welding the washers in
place (mine needed replacement), and so I asked the alignment manager
to do so.  They didn't argue, so I guess it's the proper method...  My
guy put everything on without welding first, so he could see if it
should be welded off-center (I don't know if it ended up off center
from the hole, but it was the right procedure).  Then he removed
everything, did the weld, and then did the install.

BTW, the settings I mentioned above are for all FWD Stealth, 91 > 96.
And just so you have all the info I have here on the readouts, the
caster range is 3.42 to 4.42, nominal 3.92.  Hope I helped you out.

Forrest




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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:32:06 EDT
From: TrboDrvr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Alignment Stuff...

Speaking of Alignments, there is this company that advertises a
"do-it-yourself" alignment guage that you can use to align your car at home. 
It is advertised in the September Turbo Magazine.  I called the guy last week
and he told me that the guage is very accurate on wheels up to 18".  Does
anyone have any experience with such guages?  The guage is about $154.  I
thought it might be worth the money since everyone around the Pittsburgh PA
area that so much as looks at my car somehow manages to screw something up on
it!

Thanks for any input.  Joe.
91TT
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:24:18 CDT
From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: transfer case fluid level

An easy way to check your fluid level is to use a paper clip and bend it
like this:  |-|   If you bend it like and upside down U and then stick it in
the check hole and pull it out and see how far up the one side of the U the
oil reaches.  I saw a Mitsu tech do this once.  ;)

Go to:  http://3si.org/fluids.html for recomendations on fluids.

later,
Curt
http://www.mn3s.org



>From: "Dr. John A. Tabler" <jtabler@summitmicro.com>
>To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>Subject: Team3S: transfer case fluid level
>Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:21:29 -0700
>
>I am having trouble with the check/fill port on my front transfer
>case.   The port is situated so that I really can't get at it to inspect
>the fluid level.  I've tried dental mirrors and all sorts of gadgets.
>I think I might just drain the fluid and replace it with the specified
>volume, but even access for filling is tricky.  I am envisioning some
>sort of turkey baster  + length of small plastic hose arrangement to
>refill it...   There has GOT to be a better way.  Any suggestions?
>
>I have a '92 VR-4.  The level should be about 0.5" below the hole.  As
>the transfer case thickness is about 3/4", I can't even get my finger in
>there.  The Mitsubishi book indicates that beginning in 1993 a third
>'level check' port was added, and the proper level at the new port is
>flush with the bottom of the hole.    uh-hu.
>
>I'm going to check the rear axle fluid level as well.  Any suggestions
>on replacement fluids?
>
>Thanks,
>JAT
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

______________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:25:23 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Injector duty & new Apexi AVC-R

Hi Ken,

>monitoring of up to 4 different channels simultaneously in simulated analog
> gauge (max 2 simultaneously), digitial readout (with hold & peak hold
features),

What are the 4 channels ?? I know IDC% but what else ?

>things I've noticed is that at WOT the injector duty cycle will hit 100% at
>about 5000 RPM, regardless of boost setting (well maybe only 90% at 9psi).

At WOT the ECU just selects the values from a table with only regarding the
air mass information. This values are always very rich and max the injectors
totally out to 100% around 5200, depending on the ambient.

>I have a few of questions for those of you with DataLoggers and EGT gauges:
can
>I really run boost at1.05 kg/cm^2 at 5000+ RPM even though the IDC maxes
out
>(will I be too lean and/or encounter detonation)?  Is it safe to run higher
>boost, say 1.15 or 1.20 from 2500-4000 RPM, then decrease to 1.05 or even
.95 by
>5000+ RPM?

Full power is around 5500 to 6000 but the torque alrteady comes down then
and the torque area is where normally knock is found. A lot people where
suprised we find knock above this area and this is why it is called high
speed knock.

When I run 1.05bar max (peak) with about 1.00bar sustained boost the
injectors are always maxed out heavily. But the logs show that the knock
amount counted by the ECU is not enough for causing the ECU to do anything.
The timing gets retarded for knock sums above 18-20 by only 2-3 degrees but
this never happens with 1.05 peak. Also the O2 sensor always shows a rich
value of 0.90 - 0.94 volts. Increasing boost to 1.1 peak (with 1.05
sustained) knock increases up to 36 and the timing is retarded by around 4-5
degrees due to this. The O2 voltage drops to 0.86-0.88 volts what is still
in the good range.

>I did notice on Roger's recent datalogger plot that he appears to reach
100% IDC
>at about 5200 RPM and knock detection at about 5800 RPM.  Perhaps I should
set
>boost to .95 at 5500+ RPM even though 9B's may not hold that.

Unfortunately, I can't log the boost already (I need a second notebook) and
this is why I can't say hjow much boost I had during the logs but for sure
the sustained boost was still there when knock started at 5500. It didn't
went away up to 6400 where I usually have to slow down. The most knock is
found in 3rd (1st gen) although some is also found in 1st and second (peak
situation). With boost peak to 1.05kg/cm2 there is no knock in the lower
gears.

Mike has an EGT in the front turbo and at the Autobahn with very high speed
he noticed the temp to go up heavily (can't remember if it was 850) Also on
the dyno we saw the timing retarded at 1.05 and he couldn't reach the power
like mine or Jims Stealth. He then pulled the plugs (the thing was damn hot)
and the within an hour we regapped the plugs to 0.034 and the retard went
away on the first test run. The recorded dyno run then was done on less than
1.00 kg/cm2 and this is why his curve is lower than the others. As he drove
back on the autobahn he saw lower EGTs then with the same boost as before.

With the ability to set boost even on different rpm you should adapt this to
the torque curve. Take Jims dyno sheet and increase boost at the valley
between 3000 and 4800 to flatten it out on the higher level. Maybe 5-7% as
the max torque decrease was about 7%. This would be around 1.12 bar on this
level. 3000 should not be higher as then the hearable knock would start
there at first.

Therefore the settings can be the following for a start :
2700 : 1.05
4200 : 1.12
5000 : 1.05
5200 : 1.00
5500 : 1.00

This is just an idea and you can use the other three settigns for more in
the higher area but as you said, the 9B will probably not be able to hold
boost.

Let us know how the thing works

Roger
93'3000GT TT


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End of Team3S Digest V1 #273
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