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Subject:
Team3S Digest V1 #249
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Team3S Digest
Thursday, August 5 1999 Volume
01 : Number
249
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 4 Aug 1999 07:47:35 +0100
From: "Simon Jones" <simon@3kgto.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject:
Team3S: OBDI & OBDII
Hi All,
As I understand it, in the U.S.,
OBDII was fitted to all cars from '95 on.
Am I correct that ODBII cars have
two O2 sensors, one before the pre-cat and
one after the main cat.
If this
is the case, then my 1994 GTO imported from Japan is a little
unusual.
First, it is 2nd Gen. shape (spotlights, not pop-ups), it is 5
speed and it
also has an O2 sensor (or what looks like one) after the main
cat. What
I would like to find out is whether it has OBDII.
Are the OBDI and ODBII
diagnostic connectors different?, and are they
located in different
places?
Also, does anyone have the specification of OBDII, or know where
I can look
at it?
Thanks in advance,
Simon Jones
'94
GTO
simon@3kgto.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.3kgto.freeserve.co.uk
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 4 Aug 1999 02:33:47 -0500
From: "Jeff" <spydervr4@home.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: OBDI & OBDII
My '95 Spyder has 4 O2 sensors: 2 on each bank,
one before the precat and
one after. It has an OBDII diagnostics
connector under the dash but it is
OBDI certified and not OBDII compatible
(protocols are different, as
determined by an EASEsim datalogger). On
the bottom side of my hood I have
a sticker that at the end of a long
paragraph "OBDI Certified"
Hope this helps....
jeff
'95
Mitsubishi Spyder VR-4
'90 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Simon Jones <simon@3kgto.freeserve.co.uk>
To:
3S Tech List <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date:
Wednesday, August 04, 1999 2:00 AM
Subject: Team3S: OBDI &
OBDII
>Hi All,
>
>As I understand it, in the U.S.,
OBDII was fitted to all cars from '95 on.
>Am I correct that ODBII cars
have two O2 sensors, one before the pre-cat
and
>one after the main
cat.
>If this is the case, then my 1994 GTO imported from Japan is a
little
>unusual. First, it is 2nd Gen. shape (spotlights, not
pop-ups), it is 5
>speed and it also has an O2 sensor (or what looks like
one) after the main
>cat. What I would like to find out is whether
it has OBDII.
>
>Are the OBDI and ODBII diagnostic connectors
different?, and are they
>located in different
places?
>
>Also, does anyone have the specification of OBDII, or
know where I can look
>at it?
>
>Thanks in
advance,
>
>Simon Jones
>'94 GTO
>simon@3kgto.freeserve.co.uk
>http://www.3kgto.freeserve.co.uk
>
>
>For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:22:05 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: ECU
To be honest, I never worked on a car that did not had a self
learning ECU.
Ok, my car have already had pollution control device like EGR,
cat, etc. and
I think with this learning ECUs have been
invented.
>From what year on, are 3S ECUs self learning?
All
years.
>Do all 3S ECUs have EEPROM or a custom chip?
This
is a little different as the ECU has a microcontroller that does the
job.
This is a microprocessor with internal ROM, some static RAM and
some
registers to work with. The "learned" data is hold in a particular space
in
the RAM and stays active while power is connected. Removing the battery
will
clear this data after the the power supplys condensator lost it's
stored
power.
The 3S ECU do not have an external PROM. I know some
european cars that do
have I2C EEPROMs to store some
information.
>Does the custom chip have an equivalent EEPROM or does
reprogramming of our
>ECUs require doughterboards?
Yes, we need
daughterboards. The G-Force ECU is a stock unit with the
microcontroller
unsoldered and socketed onto the daughterboard. Additionally
the board
contains two sockets for the EPROMs where you can put your own
program in.
The internal ROM area of the microcontroller is disabled and the
datalines
are wired to the EPROM sockets. None of the systems
supports
EEPROMs.
Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:39:17 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: TMO Datalogger / first runs
>If you can get a hex dump of the
EPROM (Motorola S-Record is best) with any
>info the tables addresses etc,
I may be able to disassemble it. I'm
>assuming that the ECU is
Motorola 68K based (683xx from memory), since I
>have 68k
tools.
I'm really not sure if it's a Motorola MC but I'll have a look
tonight. I do
have hex dumps already and also found the timing and fuel
maps/tables but I
haven't been able to read the EPROM into an S-record. I do
have three
G-Force ECU sets that were easily to compare ;-) I do also have
68xx tools
but I can't remember the cause why I haven't used
them.
I'll send you a file tonight
privately.
Regards,
Roger
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:57:14 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: OBDI & OBDII
>As I understand it, in the U.S., OBDII was
fitted to all cars from '95 on.
>Am I correct that ODBII cars have two O2
sensors, one before the pre-cat
and
>one after the main cat.
I
can't confirm this but the manual says that all cars made for California
have
O2 sensors before the pre-cats and afterwards. This would make 4
in
total.
ODBII does the check if the cat converters are really
working and this is
done by measuring the values before and after the
cat.
>If this is the case, then my 1994 GTO imported from Japan is a
little
>unusual. First, it is 2nd Gen. shape (spotlights, not
pop-ups), it is 5
>speed and it also has an O2 sensor (or what looks like
one) after the main
>cat.
After the main cat ? Are you sure ? I
though the 2nd sensors are in the dp
after the pre-cats but I may be wrong.
I'm pretty sure your car has also two
O2 sensors right before the pre-cats.
Have a look down at the exhaust part
right after the front turbo and you'll
find the 4-wired sensor there.
>What I would like to find out is
whether it has OBDII.
>
>Are the OBDI and ODBII diagnostic
connectors different?, and are they
>located in different
places?
Yes, they are. Although in 94 there was something like a quasi
ODBII and I
dunno when in 95 this has been changed. The real ODBI port is
located close
to the fuse block close to your left foot but I think you also
have a quasi
ODBII.
>Also, does anyone have the specification of
OBDII, or know where I can look
>at it?
There are a lot ODBII
papers on the web and I also saw an expensive book
($250 or so) that is
available with all the specs. There is also an ODBII
reader software
available but as far as I remember the stuff is
damn
expensive.
Cheers,
Roger, Switzerland
93'3000GT
TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:37:54 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Knock at low RPM
First, I'd say to try higher octane gas and
check if the knocking sounds
changes.
>my engine is at less than 5K
miles (warranty replacement, thanks
Chrysler!),
>well maintained and no
mods other than manual boost valve.
And what are the boost levels you
have seen in the past 5k miles ? Just to
make sure as the high speed knock is
not hearable.
PS: Why not asking Todd to hook up the datalogger for a run
to see if it
really knocks or if the problem sits somewhere else (clutch,
etc.)
Good luck,
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:21:59 -0400
From: "Johnson, Scott (CAP, ITS, CA)"
<Scott.Johnson@gects.ge.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Rough Clutch Uptake in 1st. Diagnosis?
Hi guys,
I
hope someone can divert their attention from all this intense
discussion
(very, very interesting, I might add) of Roger's dyno runs, etc.,
to help me
out here.
I've discovered after a weekend of aggressive
driving of my TT (no racing,
just aggressive), it seems that my clutch seems
to shudder when engaging
first gear unless I give it a lot of
RPM's.
As an example, if I want to go through the drive through at the
coffee shop,
that is the sort of situation where it seems rough in first gear
as I engage
it. When I'm taking off from a stop light, if I'm not too
gentle and give
it some RPM's it is okay, but below, say, 2500 RPM I have
this problem.
It had never occurred before this weekend.
Does
anyone know just what this might mean?
Could this mean that there is a
problem with my clutch? Currently, all
fluids are stock, and perhaps
changing them would help (i.e. to Redline)?
Perhaps it is something else
entirely?
Thanks,
Scott
'93 R/T TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 04 Aug 1999 09:46:12 EDT
From: "Dg B" <dbretton@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: TMO Datalogger / first runs
>
> >If you can get a hex
dump of the EPROM (Motorola S-Record is best) with
>any
> >info
the tables addresses etc, I may be able to disassemble it. I'm
>
>assuming that the ECU is Motorola 68K based (683xx from memory), since
I
> >have 68k tools.
>
Just a thought here, but, since
these cars are manufactured in Japan, it is
entirely likely that the chip is
manufactured by a Japenese company. This
could be Toshiba, Matsushita
or Mitsubishi.
Regards,
Dennis
_______________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 4 Aug 1999 07:10:15 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
TMO Datalogger / first runs
The processor is a 16 bit Mitsubishi 7700
series (roughly based on the
Motorola 6502). It uses an on board WO ROM
which means messing with it
requires a daughtercard to intercept the normal
operation of the processor.
TechTom charges around $300-$350 for the
daughtercard and a few to several
thousand for the appropriate software to
program it.
It'd be great to see an annotated disassembly of the dump
from the processor
code to really see what the ECU does or wants to do under
varying
circumstances. Anybody got a couple of years to
spare?
Barry
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of Dg B
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 6:46 AM
> To: robby@freesurf.ch; simon@3kgto.freeserve.co.uk;
>
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
Subject: Re: Team3S: TMO Datalogger / first
runs
>
>
>
>
> >
> > >If you can
get a hex dump of the EPROM (Motorola S-Record is
> best) with
>
>any
> > >info the tables addresses etc, I may be able to
disassemble it. I'm
> > >assuming that the ECU is Motorola 68K
based (683xx from
> memory), since I
> > >have 68k
tools.
> >
>
> Just a thought here, but, since these cars
are manufactured in
> Japan, it is
> entirely likely that the chip
is manufactured by a Japenese
> company. This
> could be
Toshiba, Matsushita or Mitsubishi.
>
>
Regards,
> Dennis
>
>
>
_______________________________________________________________
> Get Free
Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
> For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 04 Aug 1999 10:50:22 EDT
From: "Dg B" <dbretton@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Upgrading brakes -proportioning valve-
Hello
folks!
I know that the subject of brake upgrades has been a
popular one in the
past, with various reviews of various set-ups.
Most
recently, the Porsche 993 bi-turbo set-up has been considered a popular
alternative.
One of the complaints about the braking systems of the
3/S cars has been the
lack of support of the rears in assisting the stopping
of the vehicle.
Has anyone considered using an other-than-OEM
proportioning valve for our
cars?
A portion of the following web page
discusses changing out stock Porshce
proportioning valve with the one from a
993 bi-turbo:
http://www.pca.org/rrr/tech/faq14.htm
If
this could be done to our 3/S cars, wouldn't this help slow these fat
hogs
down? ;)
What do you think?
Regards,
Dennis
_______________________________________________________________
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For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 04 Aug 1999 10:22:48 CDT
From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Minnesota Gathering page is up
Hey everyone,
Thats
right!! The Lake Minnetonka Gathering page is up. Its at:
http://www.mn3s.org/lake.html There are
lots of pics. I bet it makes all
of you wish you lived in Minnesota.
:)
The "All Mitsubishi Cookout and Car Show" is coming up on the 28th
of
August, if any of you Midwest people would like to come, let me know.
The
details on that are at http://www.mn3s.org/all_mitsubishi.html
One
last piece of news. Matt at Accelerated Accessories is now carrying
the
Spearco Water Injection Kits, if your interested, give him a buzz
at
301-393-8800.
later,
Curt G,
95 R/T TT
and author of
Minnesota 3/S at: http://www.mn3s.org
_______________________________________________________________
Get
Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:38:11 -0500
From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: high tech coatings
I have Swain Coatings on my heads, exhaust
manifolds, Pre-cats and turbine
housings.
I have been really impressed
to how much cooler the engine compartment is
now.
Brad
Check
out my home page: http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
E-Mail:
bbedell@austin.rr.com ICQ#
3612682
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of Jim Berry
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 12:03 AM
To: team
3si
Subject: Team3S: high tech coatings
For our more affluent members
with an unlimited budget ---- rotor/caliper
and header coatings. plus
just about any other engine part you might want
to
protect.
Jim Berry
http://www.swaintech.com/index.shtml
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:09:23 -0700
From: "Murat Okcuoglu" <murat@ashacorp.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Rough Clutch Uptake in 1st. Diagnosis?
> I've discovered
after a weekend of aggressive driving of my TT (no racing,
> just
aggressive), it seems that my clutch seems to shudder when engaging
>
first gear unless I give it a lot of RPM's.
>
Your clutch is saying
goodbye.
it might be due to uneven wear aptterns or warped components,
anyway, only
replacing them will fix it.
If you are not ready for the
expense, do not worry, it may get slightly
better after some mild
use,
the only risk is the vibration will wear out components on your
driveline.
no fluid change will help you.
In my time, we used
talcum powder or portland cement to dry out any oil
deposits on the lining
during a race. some guys even used coca cola on
slipping clutches.
I
hope this helps. good luck
Murat
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 4 Aug 1999 21:35:09 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re:
Compressor Efficiency Theory, HP 9B vs 13G
Sorry for the delay in
responding to your reply to my post --- we may
have to take Rogers keyboard
away from him for a while, I spend to
much time trying to understand his
nuggets of wisdom :o)
As to your response, I am visualizing a 3D graph with
the x-axis as the
airflow [ CFM ], the y-axis as the boost [ PSI ], and the
z-axis as an
efficiency [ 0 to 100% ]. In the middle is a performance
topographical
mountain with efficiency as the altitude.
What I don't
understand is where the 300+ degree turbo outlet temp
came from. It is
well in excess of compression heating --- 1 BAR should
double the temp from
approximately 100 degrees to 200 degrees. The temp
referred to is three
times the input air temp. At a minimum the turbo
outlet temp should be
dependent on the condition of the turbo --- if it's
cold the temp
should be lower etc. the heat has to come from somewhere,
I don't buy into
this beating the air concept.
Do you have some graphs or can you point me at
some sites that explain
the actions taking place.
Jim Berry
> RE: 9B vs 13G compressor heating air/horsepower
differences:
>
> The mechanical DEVICE one uses to compress air
imparts heat to the
> air, which is above and beyond the simple physics of
compressible
> gas heating up on compression
> On a turbo, the
heat imparted to the volume of air compressed is
> graphically depicted on
the "compressor map", is a 3-D graph.
> On the left (of a 2-D map on a
sheet of paper) is the
> "pressure ratio"=boost. On the bottom is
the
> "air flow" = pounds per minute. Coming out toward you as
an
> "island" in the middle of the graph is an oval-shaped area,
with
> several "ovals" each inside the other, representing
"Efficiency
> Islands"...SO, at a CERTAIN BOOST and a CERTAIN
>
AIRFLOW you can find WHICH EFFICIENCY level the compressor
> is at.
Generally, a turbo ranges between 50% and 80% efficient;
> 60% is the
lower level desirable, and the higher the better. As you
> can see,
a turbo operating at 60% efficiency at high rpm and high
> boost (9B at
high rpm/power) will impart more heat to the charge
> than a WELL-PICKED
turbo operating at 70-75% efficiency.
>
> At 20psi boost, turbo
outlet temps are 320 F at 70% compressor
> efficiency island. If you
have 60% efficiency, that would be 373 F
> or so. There is about 1%
more power for every 10 degrees lower
> intake temp, so the 53 degree
difference would be about 25 hp, or
> 2mph in quartermile.
For
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------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:26:46 -0700
From: "Murat Okcuoglu" <murat@ashacorp.com>
Subject: Team3S:
HP 9B vs 13G
This is what I understand :
our cars are
offered with 9Bs in the US and 13Gs elsewhere.
There is a US turbo
shop who modifies 13G compressors and sells them as 15G
for the
3S
Please comment and correct.
Also, what are the turbo upgrades
offered by HK$ and Greddy? are they any
good? are thay worth the
expense?
Thanks!
Murat
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------------------------------
End
of Team3S Digest V1 #249
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