--
From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
(Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Team3S Digest V1 #244
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
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Team3S
Digest Friday, July 30
1999 Volume 01 : Number
244
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:39:05 -0700
From: "Murat Okcuoglu" <murat@ashacorp.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Drivetrain loss & altitude corrections
- ----- Original
Message -----
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To:
'Murat Okcuoglu' <murat@ashacorp.com>; Stealth - Team
3S
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Sent:
Thursday, July 29, 1999 2:27 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Drivetrain loss &
altitude corrections
> Murat...
>
> On the contrary,
with all other factors the same, there won't be any extra
> hp produced by
13Gs over the stock 9Bs at a given RPM and given pressure.
> The issue is
whether or not the 9Bs can produce and sustain the same
levels
> of
boost at the higher RPMs (they can't). I think you picked your
numbers
as
> a hypothetical example, but 5K RPM is where 9Bs start to
drop off. The
13Gs
> should continue to hold 15 psi up to redline. As a
result, they produce
more
> HP up to redline. The 13Gs will also
produce higher boost (more than 15
psi)
> for longer than the
9Bs.
>
> Proof? Well, I'd have to dig out a textbook, perhaps
someone else has one
> handy (or disagrees with my
statement).
>
> Looking forward...Chris
>
No need
for proof. Your explanation is exactly what I agree. If you
defended
otherwise, I would have asked for proof.
Thanks.
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:39:38 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Dyno losses... eRAM dyno #'s...
>>And which of them are
turbo cars ?
>
>Check Mark's website www.electricsupercharger.com... a
number of the tested
>cars were turbos
I did and only found an
MR2 Turbo. But the dyno sheet shows incredible
slipping of the wheels. Just
compare your dyno sheet with the one shown. The
large valleys in the curve
are showing the wheels slippingfrom the rolls
what finally causes a recording
problem to the dyno software. The next time
they should strap down the car
much more as at 16 psi the MR2 runs like hell
!
>>: If you have
a air dryer blows by 1 psi into another one that also blows
2
>>psi,
how many psi will you have at the end ? 1, 2 or 3 psi ??
>
>That's a
good question for Mark and the eRAM team...
We'll see
;-)
>>1. how much air do the eRAMs flow at 1 / 2 psi
>>2.
take the hair blower example ans ask them how the thing should
add
power
>>to a turbo.
>I'll forward this to Mark,
who has joined Team3S and will catch up with us
>soon, I'm sure. I
agree that your questions need answering...
Cool, if he's already on
the list he's very welcome to answer the Q's. Even
more this will give him a
good add-on to the FAQ section on his page. BTW,
I'd like to know the air
flow at 1 and 2 psi (not 1/2) of the eRAM
e-blowers. If he claims 750cfm in
free air I really want to know the flow
under boost.
Bob et all,
please understand my critism as I only believe things that I can
prove with
math or I see (feel, etc) it myselfs. I calculated the e-blower
stuff and
with the math I was able to say YES, it works on an NA before you
took it
onto the dyno. The sheet now proves that there is the power/torque
increase
the math expected :)
Now if someone says that the thing may give you 22hp
on a turbo engine than
I just have a big smile on my face. If I'm checking
out their homepage I do
not find any math nor any technical prove for this
statement. Even more the
statement "..750cfm in free air ..." may mislead
someone who has not that
experience we have. Or is anyone thinking that we
have a free flowing air
system on our cars ? Therefore I think the eRAM staff
has to give us the
real stuff that proves that the thing works and I'm sure
some of us will
gona buy the system for sure. ey I made my homework and I'm
prepared with
the math ;-)
Later
Roger
93'3000GT
TT
>
>Best,
>
>Forrest
>'94
Stealth NT
>
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 29 Jul 1999 23:51:28 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Drivetrain loss & altitude corrections
>Can someone
confirm and proove the following:
>
>At say, 5000 rpm and 15psi, an
engine with 13G turbos will deliver more
>horsepower than an engine with
9Gs, everything else being equal.
No, unfortunately not :( We definitely
found a better mid power/torque but
not a real power gain. The 13G design
seems to work more effective as the
discharge temperatures are noticeable
lower than with the 9Bs (measured in
the y-pipe). This may enable you to run
maybe somewhat higher boost as the
detonation level sits a little higher. The
drawback is some noticeable lag
compared to the 9B.
BTW, here's the
math :
182in^3 * 5000rpm * 0.5 *0.9 * 2.04 (1.04 bars of boost)) / 1728 =
483 cfm
You see this is the amount of air that gets sucked in at 5k with
15 psi. You
can increase air flow by increasing pressure and nothing else. Of
yourse the
real life is maybe showing 470cfm and the bigger compression wheel
may help
to achive the 483cfm then. But this is has no one measured yet (also
the
datalogger cannot log the high air flow)
Hope this
helps,
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:00:47 -0500
From: "Wendlandt, Mark (MN51)" <MWendlan@cfsmo.honeywell.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Drivetrain loss & altitude corrections
I'm surprised
nobody has spoken up here yet(Roger, Jack, Matt, etc).
Is'nt it true that
because of the larger compressor wheel on the 13G that it
will heat the air
less at ANY given pressure than the 9B?
This alone will give you
more HP because the air will be more dense(more O2)
when it enters the
combustion
chamber.
Mark
'91RT/TT
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mark
Wendlandt Honeywell CASSPO-Inertial Support
Phone:
612-957-3736 Pager:
612-601-0881
Email: Mark.Wendlandt@cfsmo.honeywell.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
Murat...
>
> On the contrary, with all other factors the same, there
won't be any extra
> hp produced by 13Gs over the stock 9Bs at a given RPM
and given pressure.
> The issue is whether or not the 9Bs can produce and
sustain the same
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 30 Jul 1999 00:10:20 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Drivetrain loss & altitude corrections
>I'm surprised
nobody has spoken up here yet(Roger, Jack, Matt, etc).
Hey, sorry but I'm
in a hotel at 21600 :((
>Is'nt it true that because of the larger
compressor wheel on the 13G that
it
>will heat the air less at ANY
given pressure than the 9B?
As I said in the post you just got,
hehe.
>This alone will give you more HP because the air will be more
dense(more
O2)
>when it enters the combustion
chamber.
Absolutely right, but the difference is pretty small and
therefore may
differ from engine to
engine.
Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:35:32 -0700
From: "Murat Okcuoglu" <murat@ashacorp.com>
Subject: Team3S:
e-Ram
here is the data I obtained from a real electric turbo dyno
tests:
example 1
engine 1.8 liters
base power:
73.7HP/5500RPM
w/blower:
85.3HP/5500RPM
base torque
78.7/4000
w/blower
95.3/3500
blower: 200Amps at 12 Volts (yes, 200 amps)
example
2
engine 1.8 liters
base power:
73.7HP/5500RPM
w/blower:
81.0HP/5500RPM
base torque
78.7/4000
w/blower
88.5/2500
blower: 100Amps at 12 Volts
example
3
engine 2.2 liters
base power: 87.8HP/60MPH wheel
speed
w/blower: 117.8HP/60MPH wheel
speed
base torque 247.3/50MPH wheel
speed
w/blower
377.4/47MPH wheel speed
blower: 300Amps at 24.5 Volts yes, 300 to 310
Amps at 24.5 Volts,
That is 7.6kW, or 10.2HP worth of electrical energy
requirement at 100%
efficiency. 13 to 15HP will probably more like it.
(efficiency of electric
motor times efficiency of
turbofan)
all above systems employ special AC inverters and huge
battery packs.
My point is, you cannot generate boost without energy.
Above examples
develop only a few PSI (less than 4.2 psi) boost. you can see
what kind of
Wattage is required. What is the current draw on
e-ram?
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:39:23 -0400
From: mark kibort <mkibort@compuserve.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Hello from eRACING, The eRAM electricsupercharger.
Hello
everyone.
Seen lots of interesting comments. If anyone wants to ask
any questions,
feel free to
send me a note at :
mkibort@compuserve.com
As most
of you are aware, we just conducted another successfull dyno run at
Frey
Racing
on a Dodge Stealth. It produces about 4-5 hp from 3500 all the
way up to
5700rpm. (down from our usual 10 hp
gains possibly due to
a quick and sloppy install on site at the dyno)
The time of this acceleration
was impoved about .25 seconds (equivalent to
60 -110mph)
This may
not seem like much ,but in drag racing in a quartermile, thats
beating
someone by over 50 feet, or
2-3 car lenghs.
One side note, is the
gains were over and above that gained by the K/N
filter charger set
up.
Let me know if you have any questions or comments on this new
concept
mark Kibort
eRACING
www.electricsupercharger.com
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:33:59 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S:
eRAM Electric Supercharger dyno test in Bay Area...
Overview
-
--------------
I got together with Mark Kibort, designer of the eRAM and
Super eRAM
Electric Superchargers on Tuesday. We installed (rigged with
gaffer tape)
an eRAM electric supercharger on my '94 Stealth base NT (which
already was
slightly modded with K&N FIPK and resonator removed), doing
before-and-after
dyno runs to determine if it does yield any real world HP
gains. Well, it
works, and even with a less than optimal 'quickie'
install, (blowing air at
around 40 degrees at the MAS honeycomb, instead of
straight-on), we got a
real 5 HP in the entire range of 3000 through 5500
RPM. We had clear repeat
readings (3 runs each on the dyno at Frey
Racing in Mountain View) of 170 HP
before, and 175 HP after installing the
eRAM. {{{IMPORTANT NOTE: This is
the HP gain 'Over and Above' the
K&N FIPK & resonator-removal gains over
stock... The Stealth
base is rated at 164 HP, so the actual gain of the
eRAM over stock is
*unknown*-- it's somewhere more than 5 and less than
11
HP!!!}}}
Unfortunately, we couldn't get the Super eRAM to fit in the
limited dyno
time available, so no test was done on that model. I'm
very encouraged
that, at least for the non-turbos, this is a viable way to
see almost double
digit HP gains for under $300, since I think with a proper
in-line install,
we will see gains of at least their claimed 4% to 6% (8 to
10 HP for a base
Stealth, 9 to 14 HP for a 3000GT SL or Stealth R/T).
I'm envisioning 50%
better numbers (or more) from the Super eRAM...
There's already been some
debate on the list about whether the eRAM will be
effective on the TTs and
VR-4s, but I'm hot on this being a good add-on for
the non-turbos, once we
figure out how to fit them in without trashing the
stock intake 'hose'.
First pictures are up on Mark's website, at the bottom
of the page:
http://www.electricsupercharger.com/www-electricsupercharger-com/eram_instal
lations.htm
Details
-
-------------------
We met at 'The Dyno Room' at Frey Racing, www.freyracing.com , which is a
company
that's been around for 40 years and have respect in the
racing
community. Judging from a dozen or so NASCAR types and SCCA
entries in the
shop, I'd venture that these guys know what they're
doing. All they do is
try to squeeze every available horsepower from
the cars they work on. Our
little test on my car (with roughly 1/3 the
HP of any of the other cars in
the shop) was treated with great respect by
their dyno guy, a soft spoken
ex-racer named Terry Barnard (who had some
interesting suggestions for
us...). He had me start at 2000rpm, then
take the car through 2nd & 3rd to
4th gear and hang at 2000rpm...
When he said "go", I banged it to WOT
through 5500rpm, then backed off and
threw it in neutral. It really felt
like driving at 120mph (what it
said on the speedo), between the engine
noise with the hood open and an
humongous fan blowing cool air over the
engine (the fan was as wide as the
Stealth)! Just an aside (for you Bay
Area folks)-- Frey Racing
will take a group of our Team3S S/3ks on one of
their weekend "Dyno Days" and
dyno your car for $60!
Although the eRAM was impressive as hell, I'm
almost as excited by what
Terry, Mark (and Mark's dad Bob, a former
aeronautical engineer) had to say
about the segmented intake 'hose' on our
cars: It steals horsepower! The
friction created by all those
segments, nooks and crannies is slowing us
down. My summer project will
be to pull out all my old engineering books,
and try to design a smooth
intake tube that reduces some of the air
resistance that our present system
creates. Any and all input or assistance
you folks can give me in this
endeavor is encouraged!!!
Anyway, we'll bounce this around some more on
the list, and Mark himself has
joined Team3S to answer any questions we may
have. I'm working with my new
computer Jennifer Godzilla III, and I
still don't have a scanner or my
digital video camera hooked up, but I'll get
you the dyno scans and a couple
of photos
ASAP.
Forrest
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:05:20 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: e-Ram
- -----Original Message-----From: Murat Okcuoglu <murat@ashacorp.com>
>here is
the data I obtained from a real electric turbo dyno
tests:
>
>example 1
>engine 1.8 liters
>base
power:
73.7HP/5500RPM
>w/blower:
85.3HP/5500RPM
>base torque
78.7/4000
>w/blower
95.3/3500
>blower: 200Amps at 12 Volts (yes, 200 amps)
- ---------other
examples snipped------------
>all above systems employ special AC
inverters and huge battery packs.
>
>My point is, you cannot
generate boost without energy. Above examples
>develop only a few PSI
(less than 4.2 psi) boost. you can see what kind of
>Wattage is required.
What is the current draw on e-ram?
The eRAM pulls 50 AMPS (for 1 psi)
and the Super pulls 100 AMPS (for 1.6
psi)... It worked easily with my
stock battery and wiring (and it's only
'on' when you floor it, for 15 or 20
sec) so I believe their claim that it
works with stock
components.
That's pretty cool info you've got,
BTW!
Forrest
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 29 Jul 1999 17:46:05 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Dyno/eRAM..., eRacing responds...
Roger: Here are some
answers to your questions (and our discussion)from
Mark (before he subscribed
that I didn't get to post...) I've left your
original quoted below for
reference. Note that MK>>>: are Mark's answers:
Bob
Forrest said:
> On Dave Allison's TT, the dyno'd HP to the wheels was 196
from his
modified 337 (estimated).
>Your 260 HP to the wheels is from
your modified 425 HP TT, right?
>Otherwise, somebody's dyno is
wrong... (Or are European HP ratings
>different?)
R.G.:
My
figures where 188kW DIN on the wheels and 261.5kW on the engine.
This
resulted in 353hp DIN and 401hp SAE corrected with the conversion fomula
we
grabbed together.
MK>>>:
The power ratings from the
manufacturer are not always accurate. However, a
dyno run of 260 hp to
the ground, is really a flywheel hp of 305HP. (not
425 or
something.) Like I mentioned before, the losses are
around 16% or
so. If they were over that, the transmission would have some
serious
problems. As an inventory of losses, we do a coast down test
that
measures rolling friction in neutral, its usually 20 hp between 130mph
and
90mph and it drops to 10 from 80 to about 60 mph. Transmission
losses are
about equal to rolling friction losses. I would love to
think my 928 track
car with 250 to the ground was really 400 hp, but I race
400 hp cars enought
to know that they have 100 hp more than me. (ie, my 300
flywheel hp approx)
B.F. said:
>Well it certainly added ponies to
the Porsche 911 and the owner's 928. Frey
>Racing is VERY respected and
LOTS of racing pros depend on their accuracy,
>so I have to believe the
results posted on Mark's website.
R.G.:
And which of them are turbo
cars ?
MK>>>:
We have tested a MR2 turbo with 16psi boost. It
produced mirror image
baseline runs, and the eRAM gained peaks of 10 hp at
two different points
on the dyno run. (2 liter
)
B.F.:
>Whatever air gets into the engine..., gets in at
atmospheric pressure (and
>as a result of it); add an additional 2 psi
with the Super eRAM, and you'll
>see real HP gains, just like we do when
the air is colder and denser. From
>what I've seen so far, I believe the
eRAM will give 4 to 6 % more HP, with
>any car (NA or
turbo).
R.G.:
Yes, this is exactly what the math is telling, hehe. But
please note that
there are some differences in a non-naturally aspirated
engine ! Figure
this : If you have a air dryer blows by 1 psi into another
one that also
blows 2 psi, how many psi will you have at the end ? 1, 2 or 3
psi ??
MK>>>:
The formula for the total boost for a turbo is
ambient + boost pressure =
total boost. With some more math we can
figure out mass flow with all the
temperature issues. For example, if
you are at 6000 feet altitude, the
total boost for a 10 psi turbo charger
would be 11.7psi for ambient + 10psi
for the the boost setting, equalling a
total boost of 21.7psi absolute
pressure. This number goes up by 3psi
if brought down to sea level. The
eRAM adds to ambient pressure by
1psi. Now to answer you question regarding
a hair drier in series with
another hair dryer. Lets just say it is
generally accepted axial fan flow
theory that says that two equal flow fans
in series will
produce
double the pressure a the same flow rate. Two fans in parallel will
produce
double the flow rate and the same pressure.
B.F.:
>claimed 6%
gain (on my base that's 8-10 HP, and on a turbo that's 15 to
20
>HP).
R.G.:
So I haven't got any answer yet on WHY a turbo
engine should benefit for
this ? And even more 15 to 20 hp
??
MK>>>:
The air flow going into the mass flow sensor
and then to the turbo is now
going at a certain % faster due to the turbo.
(ie 420 cfm on a 15 psi 2
liter vs 212cfm NA) If I can attach a
fan that produces 750 cfm on the
front of that mass flow sensor, the slower
required speed flows a pressure
curve produced by the axial flow
supercharger. It happens to be in its
sweet spot (ie
400cfm) and this increase density is what gives you the
increased mass flow
that is matched with more gasoline and gives the
proportionate power
increase.
B.F.:
> The latest Super eRAM hasn't yet reached 2 psi in
their tests, (only a
>bit over 1.5 psi), but that still would mean 12 or
more HP on my base
>Stealth, and 22 or more HP on a
turbo.
R.G.:
The only thing what I can think of is that it helps to
increase the spool-up
time but nothing else. And this will probably result in
nothing due to the
additional draw on the
alternator.
MK>>>:
Doesn't increase spool up as the air it is
spooling is only becoming more
dense. The alternator draw is known to be a
max of 750 watts or 50-55 amps
or so. This is 1 hp, or call it 2 hp
with all the inefficiencies of the
electrical power production. We have
done runs with separate batteries and
saw less than 1 hp gained in
HP. This is because the battery is in a
slightly overcharged
state anyway. The alternator responds to voltage
drop. So,
50 amps on one battery will not produce the same charging rate as
50 amps on
a weak battery. However, the max the alternator can produce
is
limited by its design. Most are in the 90 amp
range. We are not
breaking laws of thermodynamics.
Energy is created by using more gas and
air!
R.G.:
Bob, if you
don't mind call them and ask :
1. how much air do the eRAMs flow at 1 / 2
psi
MK>>>:
4-500 cfm, approx. This is
hard to answer due to the other major factors
involved. If we relieve
.5psi of vacuum in the intake system and produce
.5psi of pressure, the net
gain is 1psi. You have to look at the problem
from a slightly broader
perspective.
R.G.:
2. take the hair blower example ans ask them how
the thing should add power
to a turbo.
MK>>>:
See
above.
-
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
---------------------------------
- -----Original Message-----From: R.G.
<robby@freesurf.ch>
>>>And
which of them are turbo cars ?
>>
>>Check Mark's website www.electricsupercharger.com... a
number of the
tested
>>cars were turbos
>
>I did and
only found an MR2 Turbo. But the dyno sheet shows incredible
>slipping of
the wheels. Just compare your dyno sheet with the one shown.
The
>large
valleys in the curve are showing the wheels slippingfrom the rolls
>what
finally causes a recording problem to the dyno software. The next
time
>they should strap down the car much more as at 16 psi the MR2 runs
like
hell
>!
>>>: If you have a air dryer blows by 1 psi
into another one that also blows
>2
>>>psi, how many psi will
you have at the end ? 1, 2 or 3 psi ??
>>
>>That's a good
question for Mark and the eRAM team...
>
>
>We'll see
;-)
>
>>>1. how much air do the eRAMs flow at 1 / 2
psi
>>>2. take the hair blower example ans ask them how the thing
should add
>power
>>>to a
turbo.
>
>
>>I'll forward this to Mark, who has joined
Team3S and will catch up with us
>>soon, I'm sure. I agree that
your questions need answering...
>
>
>Cool, if he's already on
the list he's very welcome to answer the Q's. Even
>more this will give
him a good add-on to the FAQ section on his page. BTW,
>I'd like to know
the air flow at 1 and 2 psi (not 1/2) of the eRAM
>e-blowers. If he claims
750cfm in free air I really want to know the flow
>under
boost.
>
>Bob et all, please understand my critism as I only believe
things that I
can
>prove with math or I see (feel, etc) it myselfs. I
calculated the e-blower
>stuff and with the math I was able to say YES, it
works on an NA before you
>took it onto the dyno. The sheet now proves
that there is the power/torque
>increase the math expected
:)
>
>Now if someone says that the thing may give you 22hp on a
turbo engine than
>I just have a big smile on my face. If I'm checking out
their homepage I do
>not find any math nor any technical prove for this
statement. Even more the
>statement "..750cfm in free air ..." may mislead
someone who has not that
>experience we have. Or is anyone thinking that
we have a free flowing air
>system on our cars ? Therefore I think the
eRAM staff has to give us the
>real stuff that proves that the thing works
and I'm sure some of us will
>gona buy the system for sure. ey I made my
homework and I'm prepared with
>the math
;-)
>
>Later
>Roger
>93'3000GT
TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:20:33 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Drivetrain loss & altitude corrections
I keep seeing the statement
that somehow the 13G produces more 02 at say
15psi than the 9B does at 15
psi. From an engineering perspective I see no
reason for it !!! I see no
reason for the air temp of a 13G to be lower than a
9B --- in both cases you
are doubling the pressure [ from 14. 7 PSIA to 29.7
PSIA ] so that
compression heating will double the temperature at the outlet of
the turbo.
There should be a small amount of heat gain from the heat of the
turbo
itself but I would expect it to be a small percentage of the change. As I
said some time ago, the air temp should be about the same whether it's
generated by a 13G or a 6 pack of gerbils on a treadmill. Inlet temps will
increase
over time as the pipes and intercoolers heat soak, but the change
should be the
same regardless of how the pressure was generated. I see no
scientific
evidence to support the theory that the 13G's are somehow more
efficient and
therefor beat the air charge less. Show me the way
:o)
Jim
Berry
=========================================================
>
>At say, 5000 rpm and 15psi, an engine with 13G turbos will deliver
more
> >horsepower than an engine with 9Gs, everything else being
equal.
>
> No, unfortunately not :( We definitely found a better
mid power/torque but
> not a real power gain. The 13G design seems to work
more effective as the
> discharge temperatures are noticeable lower than
with the 9Bs (measured in
> the y-pipe). This may enable you to run maybe
somewhat higher boost as the
> detonation level sits a little higher. The
drawback is some noticeable lag
> compared to the 9B.
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------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:23:43 -0500
From: "Matt Jannusch" <mattj@fallon.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
e-Ram
> here is the data I obtained from a real electric turbo dyno
tests:
>
> example 1
> engine 1.8 liters
> base
power: 73.7HP/5500RPM
>
w/blower: 85.3HP/5500RPM
> base
torque 78.7/4000
>
w/blower
95.3/3500
>
> blower: 200Amps at 12 Volts (yes, 200 amps)
200
amps? Ouch! How long can a stock 3/S alternator put out that
much
additional power over the standard engine/accessories/lights draw?
I ran 60
amps worth of current through audio gear in my prior VR4 with no
problem,
but that was intermittent 60 amps, not continuous like you'd see
with an
electrically-driven blower.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
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------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:55:23 -0500
From: "Matt Jannusch" <mattj@fallon.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Drivetrain loss & altitude corrections
> I keep seeing the
statement that somehow the 13G produces more 02 at say
> 15psi than the 9B
does at 15 psi. From an engineering perspective I see no
> reason for it
!!! I see no reason for the air temp of a 13G to be
> lower than a 9B ---
in both cases you are doubling the pressure [ from
> 14. 7 PSIA to 29.7
PSIA ] so that compression heating will double the
> temperature at the
outlet of the turbo. There should be a small amount
> of heat gain from
the heat of the turbo itself but I would expect
> it to be a small
percentage of the change. As I said some time ago,
> the air temp should
be about the same whether it's generated by a 13G
> or a 6 pack of gerbils
on a treadmill.
Let me try to explain what I'm thinking... The 9B's
are small. They are a
great compromise and actually well optimized for
the stock boost levels of
these motors. They can sustain stock boost
levels all the way to redline,
which is good. If you go to a 13G, with
a larger housing and larger wheels,
you are going to see less resistance on
the exhaust gasses flowing through
the housing due to more flow area for the
exhaust to flow through. This
decreases pumping resistances, resulting
in easier flow - giving you more
available horsepower for making the car go
as opposed to pumping exhaust
gasses through a restrictive housing.
While you are correct that the outlet
temps on the turbo should* be the same,
that's not the case due to the
restriction that the blades cause on the
air. While the output pressure
might be 15 psi, the pressure internally
in the turbo on the compressor side
is going to be higher in the blade area
where the pressure is actually built
up. A more efficient and larger
design here will decrease the amount of
extra heat in the pressurized gas as
the compressor side won't have to work
as hard and overall efficiencies will
be higher.
This is also a pointer as to why larger turbos spool up at
higher RPMs than
smaller turbos. Less restriction = less surface area
being pushed by
exhaust gasses if exhaust gas flow rates are the same.
The larger turbo
needs more exhaust gas flow in order to spin the slightly
heavier wheels,
but more importantly it needs more energy fed into it as less
of the energy
overall is used to pressurize the intake air.
> Inlet
temps will increase
> over time as the pipes and intercoolers heat soak,
but the change
> should be the same regardless of how the pressure was
generated. I
> see no scientific evidence to support the theory that the
13G's are
> somehow more efficient and therefor beat the air charge less.
Show
> me the way :o)
Inlet temps may rise due to the air intake
sucking in hot underhood air, but
remember that the intercoolers are AFTER
the turbos, not before them.
Intercoolers cool the pressurized charge, not
the intake charge. (Assuming
you are talking about the turbo inlet,
which I think is the context you
meant).
I don't know if this will
help, as I think I'm talking higher than my own
understanding of this.
I do know that on several DSM cars I've worked on
where we replaced the 14b
turbo with a 16G turbo the car made noticeably
more power at the same boost
level, even at RPMs where the 14B was still
holding that level of
boost. There ARE some gains here, noticeable gains at
least in what
I've experienced. I haven't had the opportunity to use 13Gs
on my car
yet, so I'm just talking in a general sense - not specific to 9b
vs 13g,
although the difference between the 9b and 13g is a similar change
between
the 14b and 16g.
- -Matt
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:09:43 EDT
From: LotoBoost@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: HKS
Intercoolers and Pipe Kit for Sale!
All,
I'm
selling my HKS Intercoolers and HKS Intercooler Pipe Kit off my
Stealth
tt. They intercoolers are in excellent shape, and the pipe kit is in
good shape aside from a few scratches (nothing a little touch up paint
wouldn't fix!). I'm selling them for $1,250 if anyone is
interested! I can
accept Visa, Mastercard, and Discover at the shop
also..
TTYLater,
Mike
1994 Dodge Stealth tt
Best et: 11.4 Best
mph: 122
www.AlteredAtmosphere.com
301-294-2700
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 30 Jul 1999 04:23:40 -0500
From: "Vineet Singh" <billi_gates@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Multi topic coverage here...
1) Self cleaning Door switches...
Pat pending (not :)
>From: "Shawn and Sarah Cullen" <spcullen@prodigy.net>
>Subject:
Team3S: Re: Electrical Gremlin in my car
>I've got this
electrical problem with my 92 SL. It seems that about half
>the
time, when I open the door, the door open light doesn't illuminate on
>the
panel. Subsequently, the security system will not arm, and
the
interior
>light doesn't illuminate.
>I thought the first
time it did this I had blown a fuse or something,
>however if this were
the case, it wouldn't work at all, right? As it
>stands, it will
work sometimes and won't some other times.
>Has anyone else ever
encountered this problem? If it's a short somewhere,
>where and how
would I check and repair?
I did THIS to my car about a year ago.. worked
flawlessly so far!
http://www.dsm.org/archives/1998/05/19980518.txt/47.html
2)
End nut on trannie falling off (non-getrag)
> So, here are the
questions:
> 1. Will replacing and torqueing the nut, replacing the
cover, and
> changing out what's left of the tranny fluid be
enough?
> 2. Or should I have the tech completely disassemble the
thing looking for
> other possible damage?
> 3. When I get the
car towed in, should I have it "towed" or "flatbed"?
> 4. Will the
parts discounters that have been mentioned here before be the
> place to
go for that cover, or should I look for a junker in a scrap yard?
Well,
you said the nut didn't come off all the way, so I will go
from
there...
True, there might be metal shavings in your tranny, but
most likely they
are aluminum. Bad thing is that magnets wouldn't catch the
particles...
good thing is that aluminum is softer than most of the trannie
internals.
More than likely you will be able to get by with just the
replacement of a
NEW end nut (this is NOT reusable!), and a new end cover.
You don't
have to remove the tranny from the car, just remove the pass front
wheel,
the splash sheild, and you have full access.
End covers will
work from any AWD or FWD similar year DSM
(Talon/Eclipse/Laser), or you can
get a new one for 300+$.
Actually, here is a copy of a post I made a
while back for the same prob.
"While the engine/trans was out, we
replaced 5th gear pieces. I will list
all the part #'s you will need
to replace the pieces that get lost if
the nut on the end backs off
and blows a hole in the trans. Shifts like
butter... well margarine
atleast :)
Bought from 1888tallmits (Tallahassee
Mitsubishi)
for a 91 AWD talon, others similar!
MD731948
- End Nut (the one that backs off, you CANNOT REUSE THIS NUT)
MD701722
- Clevis Pin for the shift fork (NOT REUSABLE)
MD744342 - Spring
(cannot determine WHICH one, but you need it)
MD743529 - 5th HUB assy.
PLEASE take this FULLY apart and get rid of all
the grease/glue thats
on it so it doesn't rust in storage. If you don't
you will have
problems trying to move this assy on the shaft, and will
have to redo
it, AND buy another end nut. Make SURE it moves FREELY.
Spray it with
Liquid wrench/wd40.
MD739066 - QTY *2* Springs to hold the KEYS in
(see next part#)
MD742777 - QTY *3* Keys that go in the hub
assy.
MD724884 - Ring retainer (I think this is the wave spring on the
end
plate.)
Oh ya, you need to obtain a new end plate. Have
no part# for that.
That should be all that you loose, and that's
all thats needed to make
5th shift like margarine. Total cost from
SATAN, 260$. Total cost from
Tall mitz, 140ish$! Thanks
Sean/Marcus/Jeremy"
3) HP losses/Misc q's
FYI, I gteched my new
Dodge Stealth RT/TT... only got 220hp to the wheels...
thats an AVERAGE of 5
runs ranging mostly around 220, but one down to 190.
Where's my 300hp?
:)
When I install the KN FIPK, wires, ngk's, and other stuff, maybe it
will get
closer to 300?.
QUESTION... What are the cheapest/best
Downpipes available for the TT?
Does anyone make an exhaust that goes
from that "clamp" near the rear diff,
back? The rest of the pipe looks
adequate for my goals (330hp).
Would a single large tip look stoopid on a
92 DS RT/TT? I want to save
weight,
and cut down on fab time/price.
Thanks!
Vineet Singh
Manuals On CD - http://manualcd.dsm.org Dimmed in
memory of J. Carpenter
Club DSM A/T - http://at.dsm.org - Dimmed in memory of
J. Carpenter
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:41 -0500
From: Jeff A Williamson <Jeff.A.Williamson@jci.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: Electrical Gremlin in my car
I had the same exact problem
with my '92 VR4. It was the door switch. Open the
driver's side door, and
near the bottom of the pillar next to the body sill,
you will see a rubber
boot about the size of a quarter. Underneath this is the
switch that
controls the dome light, door light, door-open indicator, and
security
system. If the light isn't on when the door is open, try jiggling this
switch and I'll bet the light comes on. Ultimately, I had to remove the
switch
and file all the contact points. Works fine now.
Hope this
helps.
Jeff Williamson
Belleville, MI
'92 VR4
>I've got
this electrical problem with my 92 SL. It seems that about half
>the
time, when I open the door, the door open light doesn't illuminate on
>the
panel. Subsequently, the security system will not arm, and the
interior
>light doesn't illuminate.
>I thought the first time it
did this I had blown a fuse or something,
>however if this were the case,
it wouldn't work at all, right? As it
>stands, it will work
sometimes and won't some other times.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:44:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: ie886@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John
T. Christian)
Subject: Re: Team3S: Electrical Gremlins in my car
Hi
all,
Shawn, my TT has the same problem frequently.
The solution is
an easy one however. Just disconnect the negative battery
terminal for
about 3 minutes. That resets the defaults.
Make sure you have all
lights etc in the OFF position before you reconnect.
Also close the
doors and tailgate..... else the cables spark... been there
done
that.
Don't know WHY the TT gets confused, but I just reset the defaults
when I
notice the dome light dimmers stops working.
Be of good
cheer
- --
JCZoooM '93 Stealth TT
Blue almost stock 12.46 @109 MPH
e-mail:
ie886@po.cwru.edu www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:15:14 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Admin Notice- Archive Page will be down for 24 hrs...
To all,
The
Team3S Archive Page is being redesigned, and will not be available
until
mid-day on Saturday. Sorry for any inconvenience...
Bob
Forrest
Admin, Team3S
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 30 Jul 1999 16:32:31 -0400
From: Michael Booker <mrbook@gate.net>
Subject: Team3S: Oil
pressure problem.
I am having a problem with low oil pressure. I changed
it wednesday,
with mobil-1 10W30, (the only thing used in the car for the
last 50,000
miles) and now, at idle, the pressure drops down below the
"normal"
range of markings, almost 2 lines below. Should I use a Thicker
or
thinner weight oil? I do live in florida, and the heat is some
factor,
but now the lifters or something under there is making a loud
ticking,
and I don't know what to do. Any ideas?
Thanks,
Matt
#311
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------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 30 Jul 1999 13:44:11 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Oil pressure problem.
- -----Original Message-----From: Michael
Booker <mrbook@gate.net>
>I am
having a problem with low oil pressure. I changed it wednesday,
>with
mobil-1 10W30, (the only thing used in the car for the last 50,000
>miles)
and now, at idle, the pressure drops down below the "normal"
>range of
markings, almost 2 lines below. Should I use a Thicker or
>thinner weight
oil? I do live in florida, and the heat is some factor,
>but now the
lifters or something under there is making a loud ticking,
>and I don't
know what to do. Any ideas?
The pressure indicator is only at
'normal' when you're driving, not at
idle... First off I'd check the
oil level. A number of times over many
years, oil jockeys have
'forgotten' to add the extra quart for the filter...
If it's full, and it's
hot and muggy in Florida (duh!), you may want to
consider heavier
oil...
As to the ticking, give it a few more miles for the oil to work into
all the
nooks and crannies... But if you have low pressure, watch it
constantly,
and don't wait too long to have it checked. (I blew a
beautiful Ford engine
once, because a dummy misthreaded my filter, and it all
leaked out in 25
miles... I just wasn't paying attention--
Throwing a rod wasn't fun.)
Forrest
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 30 Jul 1999 23:41:12 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Dyno/eRAM..., eRacing responds...
First I'd give Mark a warm
welcome to the Team3S list and I'm happy to have
more pros that can give us
some insights behind the tech ;-)
Second, thanks a lot for all the
answers answered in a great way. I do have
some more questions and the
hairdryer example (LOL) is one that is not yet
clear. Please stay tuned as
I'll do my first Water Injection runs and logs
tomorrow and I have to regain
some energy from the looong nights in
Amsterdam,
hehe.
Later,
Roger
PS : Mark, please check out the dynosheets
on my homepage under (February
dyno session) for ther tranny loss. We do this
the same way as you do and
the figures are pretty close to Subarus, Audis and
Porsche Carrera 4 losses.
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/3000gt.html
>Roger:
Here are some answers to your questions (and our discussion)from
>Mark
(before he subscribed that I didn't get to post...) I've left
your
>original quoted below for reference. Note that MK>>>:
are Mark's answers:
<huge snip>
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------------------------------
End
of Team3S Digest V1 #244
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