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Subject:
Team3S Digest V1 #231
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Team3S Digest
Wednesday, July 14 1999 Volume
01 : Number
231
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:32:38 -0500
From: "Matt Jannusch" <mattj@fallon.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Diamond Star Shootout / Water Injection
> It sounds
like the water injection idea is a good one, I am
> awaiting more specific
data from an additional observer (Roger
> and the actual dyno results--one
without WI, then directly
> after one WITH WI). One of the Minnesota
members (Curt J.
> I think it is spelled with C) is in midst of testing as
well.
> This hopefully will allow us to decrease knock events and
>
resultant spark retard. It improves one of the factors
> needing
improvement!
I'm the "other guy" with water injection from
Minnesota. Nice to meet you
at the Shootout, by the way.
:-)
The main thing that water injection seemed to do for my car was make
it much
more consistent down the 1/4 mile. I ran without water
injection during the
Diamond Star Shootout on Friday and ran 13.6-13.8 1/4
mile times on 5
gallons of 94 octane Sunoco fuel and a whole bottle of 104+
Octane Booster
(figure the "real" octane probably about 97-98 octane).
I ran a maximum
boost spike of 20 psi and it dropped real quick to about 16
psi and down to
12 psi at redline, where I shifted. I think shifting
earlier would probably
help my times some by keeping the car more in the meat
of the power curve
around 4000 RPM.
Sunday I had added a full tank of
94 octane the day before for autocrossing,
mixed with the remaining 3 gallons
of 94 octane/booster, so I figure the
"real" octane to be about 96 octane,
and about 15 gallons of gas in the car.
I ran the water injection (Spearco
kit with the "medium" nozzle) and the car
was running very consistent 13.5
second quarter miles with one 13.4 pass.
The car seemed to pull harder for a
longer period of time and I didn't feel
any obvious timing retard. I
think with larger turbos the car would go
quite a bit better and the benefits
of the water injection would be higher
since the boost wouldn't fall off so
fast. If I decide to keep upgrading
the car, I'll do 13G's
next.
Currently the car has an HKS EVC 4 (going to be replaced with a
Hallman
manual boost controller, paid for with my prize money from the
Shootout),
downpipe (don't know whose), high-flow cat, Borla cat-back,
K&N FIPK,
Predator Battery and the Spearco Turbo Water Injection kit
mounted on the
battery tray. I'll take pictures if anyone wants to see
how/where I mounted
the tank and battery.
My friend Oskar won the
3000GT/Stealth class drag racing at the Diamond Star
Shootout, running a best
of 12.6. I placed second by sheer luck alone.
Next year we have to get
a stronger showing of 3/S cars out there! There
were only three of
us! That's pathetic! I also got second place in the
Shootout
Autocross in the stock/street-tire class against a field of quick
DSM
cars. The big heavy beast likes to oversteer a bit, but it seems
to
enjoy the corners. I think the years of autocrossing my DSM paid off
well,
also. :-) That's second place two years in a row now.
Next year I shall
win. ;-)
I got spanked pretty hard on Sunday
at the Summit Import Nationals during
Bracket Racing. I screwed up and
let off the gas when I didn't see my
competitor when I was nearing the
traps. Little did I realize that he was
in my blind spot, so I let him
by, got on the gas and started gaining on him
when I realized my error, but I
didn't have enough track left to catch him.
Ugh... Made it into the
second round by beating a Neon during the first
round. I don't feel so
bad losing to a DSM, but losing to the Neon would've
really
sucked!
I'm planning on taking the opportunity of trying the car with and
without
the water injection at sane boost levels during the next Test and
Tune at
our somewhat local dragstrip when I have a chance. If I can
find some
decent race fuel, and make a test pipe for the car I'll run
ridiculous boost
levels as well to see what difference the water injection
makes with the car
more pumped up.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:38:03 -0500
From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Re: Intercooler/WIS vs. Injectors/VPC
OK everyone I must say this
thread has been putting a smile on my face for
quite a while now. It is
nice to be involved in a discussion about
automotive engineering that doesn't
revert back to red-neck racing
standards. You know....: Bigger,
better, faster, more. :-) Because our
cars weren't designed that
way to begin with, and we don't think that way
after the fact, we get the
glee of waxing cars with engines twice our size
on the track.
But, I
think it would be best if I clarify some things that we found with
our tests,
because the results may not have been explained very well.
First, We got 19
psi with no knock. This however was NOT at redline. My
stock 9B
turbos are only holding about 14.5-15 psi at the redline. I'm
getting
to 19 at around 4500-4700 rpm. The amount of air flow is a lot
lower at
this point. My A/F guage was showing that I was staying rich all
the
way up the tach, but remember that boost was falling off as I went up.
As
to the question of can we run 19psi at the redline with only water to
keep
things safe, I would have to say: Not with the 9Bs, not even if you
could
defy physics and get them to push it to 19psi up there. The drop in
EGT
temps seen by WI users is usually about 50 degrees (celcius) depending
on the
EGT before water. I think the 9Bs would make too much heat for even
the
water to fight off. Ok, so what about running 19psi and water with
a
more effecient turbo? Only if you have the fuel to maintain a propper
A/F
ratio. If you look at the ASE web site it is said that the 'max
power' A/F
ratio for almost all 4 cycle motors is about 12:1. This
varies only a
little from engine to engine. If you start running lean,
things WILL heat
up, water will only cool to point.
The nice 'butt
dyno' gain I got from water is not because I increased max
power output of
the motor so much as I gave it a nice kick in the midrange
band. I get
to my maximum power much faster than before. I would imagine
if I had
an AWD dyno around here to run the car on, my HP curve would rise
much faster
than, but still only peak slightly higher than, a simular car
running
15psi. We both end up there anyway, I just get to give it more in
the
middle. :-)
We are going in the right direction everyone, and
eventually we too will
have the joy of somebody here breaking the 10 second
barrier. I tip my hat
to everyone, for everything I'm seeing come out
of this group is based on
reason and rational, and armed with THIS we can
truly optimize our cars.
- -John Basol
'95 RT/TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:49:41 -0500
From: "Matt Jannusch" <mattj@fallon.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Intercooler/WIS vs. Injectors/VPC
> >The WIS poster DID NOT see
detonation because the stock fuel system was
> >providing sufficient
fuel at 19psi.
> This is an assumption of you but we do not have
measured figures ! And I'm
> pretty sure that over a longer period the
system would run into hesitation
> problems due to the weak fuel
delivery.
I think it may be more of a symptom that he's only running 19
psi for a
second or two at the most, as the stock turbos run out of steam
very
quickly. You also won't see 19 psi in first gear, and only briefly
in
second gear. Detonation gets worse as the cylinders get increasingly
hot
from prolonged high boost.
> >If he's not detonating, he's
ok. If he didn't have enough fuel, he'd be
> >detonating. It's quite
simple.
> No no, he did not detonating as the water cooled the
combustion down so
> much. John Basol maybe runned the 19 psi up to
5000rpm and there is enough
> fuel for the air pushed in. But the
situation changes pretty soon as rpm
> increases !
I agree with
Roger here... And 19 psi at 5000 rpm might or might not have
actually
occurred. By 5000 rpm, the boost might've been down to 15 by
then,
which is in the "safe" range for the fuel system.
> >19psi
with 9b turbos. Air/fuel ratio may indeed be a problem with larger
>
>turbos, since they hold boost, i.e. higher oxygen content, at
>
>higher RPM's. But we're talking about with stock turbos. It
may
> >be a fortunate peculiarity that the 9B's run out of breath as
the
> >RPM increases.
This is certainly the case, but if you are
looking to build a strong car,
then you want to hold boost to higher levels
for a longer duration of time.
Whether the water injection will stave off
detonation at high boost for
longer duration remains to be seen. If it
does, then it is a viable way to
increase the power of our cars. If it
does not, then we know it is helpful
for cars that are fairly close to stock
that want to run higher boost levels
for a short period of time.
My
very non-scientific testing seemed to indicate that the water
helped
somewhat, but my car doesn't have larger turbos so the boost dropped
off
quickly.
> One thing nobody spoke about yet was fuel quality.
Increasing the octane
> number increases also the detonation point. So
does this mean
> that this kind of fuel lowers the combustion temp or
creates a
> richer condition ???
I'm under the impression that the
higher octane the fuel, the slower it
burns, but the hotter the flame.
Since it burns slower, you are generally
going to see more timing advance on
race fuel. Rich/Lean doesn't change
just by going to a different fuel,
however we should be able to run slightly
leaner on race fuel as the chances
of detonation are lower. With water
injection helping to cool the
cylinders, we should be able to run leaner
yet. The question becomes
"how lean is too lean, and does the stock fuel
system have enough capacity to
keep us above the too lean point?". We need
someone that has larger
turbos, water injection, and a dual-probe EGT meter
to really nail this
down. Without knowing the EGT, we're only guessing at
how hot the
mixture is getting when it ignites. At 19 psi, it might be very
easy to
start melting combustion chamber parts. Since the injected water
isn't
burning, it should be cooler at normal boost pressures, but what
happens when
you are at the ragged edge of safety?
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:44:18 -0700
From: David Chen <Neubine@ix.netcom.com>
Subject:
[Fwd: Re: Team3S: New Struts]
- -------- Original Message
--------
Subject: Re: Team3S: New Struts
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:12:15
-0700
From: David Chen <Neubine@ix.netcom.com>
To: "Dennis
G. Bretton" <dbretton@cs.uml.edu>
References:
<Pine.OSF.3.96.990713112835.25516C-100000@jupiter.cs.uml.edu>
Hey
Dennis
> I looked up the pillow ball mount on the tien page.
What is the
> difference between this set-up and the stock configuration
on the cars?
> What does this "pillow ball" allow for that the stock
set-up does not?
> Does this allow for camber/caster
adjustment?
The pillow ball mounts let you configure your camber setup so
that you
can toe
your car in or butterfly it out. At the race track this
is usefull
because you
don't have to take out the wheel and mess around
with the alignment
bolt. You
can do it from the top of the strut. Also it
helps adjust your camber on
the
street so that you don't wear out your
tires.
>
> If you don't mind my asking, what kind of bugs were
there?
The frist set up i had was a little buggy in that the sleeve i
used were
not
part of the sturt or welded on. They also tended to gunk up
with dirt
making
height adjustment difficult. Also they made weird
noises.
> Pretty neat looking set-up. Are the shocks adjustable
in dampening
> coefficient?
Yup, like the GABs they are fully
adustable.
> Could you explain what is meant by "coilover"
shocks? How do these differ
> from struts? I have a base model
Stealth (okay, stop laughing), and I
> have rear coilover shocks, and
front struts.
> However, they both look pretty much like the same thing,
with the rear
> set-up being just a little smaller.
Coilover means
that the springs sit around the shock itself. The collars
that
are
adjustable are part of the shock. Regular struts have shocks that
sit
on
top of them and only surround the piston the comes out of the
shock.
It's very
diffrent in that they use diffrent springs and the way
they handle.
FYI the Tein Models are for VR-4s I don't know if your car
uses the same
strust because I know for a fact that the SL and VR-4 GABs are
diffrent.
Only
in the rear.
> One more question (I
promise). How is the TIEN HA set-up different from
> the GAB struts
with a Ground Control suspension set-up? Aside from being
> about
$650 more expensive? :)
Ground control setup is like what i had before,
they try to setups a
coilover
system by adding the sleeves to an existing
strut. I don't particluarly
like
this becuse firs the quality of the
sleeve they use is really crappy.
They
gooves thend to get mashed which
make it really hard to turn the
collars. Also
with ground controls you
have to weld them onto the the strut. they also
have
no adaptor ontop of
the spring so that the springs sets nicely in the
stud
plate. If you want
to sve moeny then this is the way to go but real
performance is with true
coilovers not patchworked stuff.
Hope that helped.
David
Chen
Neubine@ix.netcom.com
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:17:41 -0700
From: "Dave Allison" <dallison@siebel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Re: Intercooler/WIS vs. Injectors/VPC
I agree. I enjoy
discussions like this where we try to knock down
the barriers to upgraded
performance in our cars while still keeping it
civil. This list is amazing.
Look at the starnet list, and other than a few
cross-posted responses from
THIS list, their more concerned with topics
like, "Why our cars are cool"
and "rechroming your wheels". What an
invaluable resource this list is.
The great thing is that everyone works
together to extract the little truths
from our cars. We have legends like
Jack T. sharing his experience with us
and hardcore technical wizards like
Roger Gerl who are willing to actually
dyno the car in different
configurations to separate fact from myth
about our cars. We've even got a
few mad scientists here that are willing and
able to experiment with WIS and
such.
One note on the current thread.
I think everyone needs to remember
that we are talking about an otherwise
stock car with STOCK turbos. I'm sure
that much of the information I've
posted does not apply to larger turbos and
I'll be the first to admit that
the stock injector's IDC is insane as it is
at 15psi, let alone 19! If we
start talking about higher boost and larger
turbos everything gets thrown out
the window. This guy got 19psi on stock
turbos with no detonation and still
had A RICH A/F CONDITION while only
investing a few hundred bucks! This is
quite a return on such a minor
investment. I'm just saying that for stock
turbos, WIS seems to be the way
to go as a first step before more upgrade
paths are tried, including all the
many fuel upgrades required.
With
resources like this it's gonna be unlikely that I'll be willing
to part with
the car at the end of the year. I'll just have to clear out
more space in my
garage so I can have both cars! :)
Seeya!
Dave
>
-----Original Message-----
> From: Basol, John [mailto:jbasol@Carlson.com]
> Sent:
Tuesday, July 13, 1999 10:38 AM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Intercooler/WIS vs. Injectors/VPC
>
>
> OK everyone I must say this thread has been putting a smile
> on
my face for
> quite a while now. It is nice to be involved in a
discussion about
> automotive engineering that doesn't revert back to
red-neck racing
> standards. You know....: Bigger, better,
faster, more. :-)
> Because our
> cars weren't designed
that way to begin with, and we don't
> think that way
> after the
fact, we get the glee of waxing cars with engines
> twice our
size
> on the track.
>
> But, I think it would be best if I
clarify some things that
> we found with
> our tests, because the
results may not have been explained very well.
> First, We got 19 psi with
no knock. This however was NOT at
> redline. My
> stock
9B turbos are only holding about 14.5-15 psi at the
> redline.
I'm
> getting to 19 at around 4500-4700 rpm. The amount of air
> flow is a lot
> lower at this point. My A/F guage was
showing that I was
> staying rich all
> the way up the tach, but
remember that boost was falling off
> as I went up.
>
> As
to the question of can we run 19psi at the redline with
> only water
to
> keep things safe, I would have to say: Not with the 9Bs, not
>
even if you
> could defy physics and get them to push it to 19psi up
there.
> The drop in
> EGT temps seen by WI users is usually
about 50 degrees
> (celcius) depending
> on the EGT before
water. I think the 9Bs would make too much
> heat for even
>
the water to fight off. Ok, so what about running 19psi and
> water
with a
> more effecient turbo? Only if you have the fuel to maintain
> a propper A/F
> ratio. If you look at the ASE web site it
is said that the
> 'max power' A/F
> ratio for almost all 4 cycle
motors is about 12:1. This varies only a
> little from engine to
engine. If you start running lean,
> things WILL heat
> up,
water will only cool to point.
>
> The nice 'butt dyno' gain I got
from water is not because I
> increased max
> power output of the
motor so much as I gave it a nice kick in
> the midrange
>
band. I get to my maximum power much faster than before. I
>
would imagine
> if I had an AWD dyno around here to run the car on, my HP
> curve would rise
> much faster than, but still only peak slightly
higher than, a
> simular car
> running 15psi. We both end up
there anyway, I just get to
> give it more in
> the middle.
:-)
>
> We are going in the right direction everyone, and
eventually
> we too will
> have the joy of somebody here breaking
the 10 second barrier.
> I tip my hat
> to everyone, for
everything I'm seeing come out of this group
> is based on
> reason
and rational, and armed with THIS we can truly
> optimize our
cars.
>
> -John Basol
> '95 RT/TT
>
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:19:18 -0500
From: "Trent" <rtrent@nlci.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Intercooler/WIS vs. Injectors/VPC
Directly from my IC engine engineering
text book....a slightly lean from
stoic. will result in slightly more
horsepower were as beyond this point
power drops until oxidation sets
in. Benefits gained from a slightly rich
mixture, i.e. faster
combustion take place in addition to the cooling
benefits. Much of your
assumption is based on a single post by someone who
claims to have run 19psi
on a stock fuel system. IMHO.....dream on. My
personal experience
and that of virtually every other experienced tuner on
this list is you need
more fuel in order to make more power. I've yet to
see an injector size
HP formula that yields any significant HP gains from
out little 360cc stock
units no matter what boost your running. After
upgrading to 13g's I
also was not convinced that I needed more fuel, but
even with boost turned
up, I noticed little performance gain. The day I
switching to RC 500's
I couldn't believe my butt dyno, it was like night
and
day.
Regards,
DaveT/92TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:48:03 -0700
From: "Murat Okcuoglu" <murat@ashacorp.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Intercooler/WIS vs. Injectors/VPC
Dave,
If I got it right,
you have 13Gs and 550ccs from RC
what is your ECU? what did you do to
correct mixture for the 550ccs?
Dou you have any other significant mods?
(exhaust, intake)?
according to you butt dyno, what was the biggest bang
for the buck? or, what
single mod returned the highest increase in
performance? (like, boost, fuel,
exhaust, or
ECU?)
thanks
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 13 Jul 1999 19:38:20 EDT
From: Aso8@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Off Topic - Des
Moines, IA area Help
Anyone on our list live in Des Moines, IA and drive
a 91-93 VR-4?
I can use your help on a new type of Racing Wheel. I'd like to
show your car
to a wheel mfg. for a size so he can make one. Please, Email
direct if you
won't mind driving over to show him the car. It's in Des
Moines on Urbandale
Ave.
Any help much appreciated.
Arty 91
VR-4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:23:36 EDT
From: Aso8@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Off Topic -
Cancel request for Des Moines, IA Thanks.
OK. Got it thank you.
Arty
91 VR-4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:18:41 EDT
From: Aso8@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: HKS Gauges &
Pod 4 sale
These are TOP of the line in every detail. All are as new
& perfect in all
ways.
HKS 60mm Boost Gauge with peak hold
feature.
Black face, white numbers, amber lights, red pointer (matches
stock)
HKS 60mm EGT Gauge with peak hold feature.
Black face, white
numbers, amber lights, red pointer
Custom made by GT Alley - Duel dash
pod gauge holder. This sits next to the 3
factory gauges on the top of the
dash. When installed, appears like a row of
5 gauges. Tilted to face the
driver and holds both of the 2 HKS 60mm gauges.
Made of black aluminum. Gives
a sophisticated appearance as opposed to gauges
hanging all around the car.
In a class by itself.
The package of all 3 together as a unit $900.
When only the very best will do :)
Please, Email direct.
Arty 91
VR-4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:35:56 -0500
From: "Matt Jannusch" <mattj@fallon.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Intercooler/WIS vs. Injectors/VPC
> Directly from my IC engine
engineering text book....a slightly lean from
> stoic. will result in
slightly more horsepower were as beyond this point
> power drops until
oxidation sets in. Benefits gained from a slightly rich
> mixture,
i.e. faster combustion take place in addition to the cooling
>
benefits. Much of your assumption is based on a single post by
>
someone who
> claims to have run 19psi on a stock fuel system.
IMHO.....dream on. My
> personal experience and that of virtually
every other experienced tuner on
> this list is you need more fuel in
order to make more power. I've yet to
> see an injector size HP
formula that yields any significant HP gains from
> out little 360cc stock
units no matter what boost your running. After
> upgrading to 13g's
I also was not convinced that I needed more fuel, but
> even with boost
turned up, I noticed little performance gain. The day I
> switching
to RC 500's I couldn't believe my butt dyno, it was
> like night
and
> day.
The fuel system does have enough grunt to supply fuel at
19 psi AT 4000-5000
RPM. There's plenty of time per cycle for the fuel
injectors to flow the
fuel for the cylinder. The problem is that at
higher RPM there is less time
for the injector to supply the proper amount of
fuel. If our ECUs are
anything like the DSM ECUs (which everything I've
seen seems to indicate
this is true), the WOT fuel maps come straight out of
a static table of
airflow vs RPM. The table is guaranteed to be
non-optimal towards the
overly rich side. It may* be rich enough to run
that 19 psi for a short
duration. John (the original poster) said he
monitored the A/F ratios and
knock while doing his testing (A/F gauge
displaying full rich and no knock
indicated), so I consider it valid that 19
psi on pump gas with water
injection is safe at lower RPMs where the 9b
turbos can actually generate
that much boost.
As far as slightly lean
from stoichiometric making the most horsepower -
that is true, for a
naturally aspirated engine. As soon as you introduce
boost, stoich is
no longer a valid tuning target as the cylinder temps
skyrocket at
stoich. You'll melt parts in no time! That's why you see the
high
IDC readings, the ECU is just dumping in as much fuel as possible in
order to
cool the cylinders so people don't make a lot of warranty claims on
the cars
for melted parts. The ECU is very much overly safe when boost is
kept
to stock levels, and has some overhead built-in for increased boost as
a
result.
I agree that you probably needed more fuel when you upgraded to
13Gs. Since
the turbos could hold high boost at higher RPMs you started
passing the
stock fuel system capacity and got knock and probably detonation
events
which retarded the timing and made the car feel slower. Now
here's the
interesting question: if detonation was the problem, then would
water
injection cause the ECU to advance the timing again and produce more
power?
I think that's really what we're all trying to figure out
here.
> Regards,
> DaveT/92TT
- -Matt
'95 3000GT
Spyder VR4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:12:37 -0400
From: William Lynn Larsen <wlarsen@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Intercooler/WIS vs. Injectors/VPC
Matt,
In an aircraft with an EGT
when we were trimming for cruise, we would
set the manifold pressure, then
the RPM, then we would start slowly
leaning until we hit peak EGT, then we
would richen to four degrees on
the rich side of peak. I assume that this
gave us a safety edge on not
running too lean. (I don't have the manuals any
more and it has been
about 13 years since I last flew the Mooney so the four
degrees may be
off, but we did go a set number of degrees on the rich side of
peak
EGT.)
Regards,
Lynn
Matt Jannusch wrote:
> The
question becomes "how lean is too lean, and does the stock fuel
> system
have enough capacity to keep us above the too lean point?". We
need
> someone that has larger turbos, water injection, and a dual-probe
EGT meter
> to really nail this down. Without knowing the EGT, we're
only guessing at
> how hot the mixture is getting when it
ignites.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:27:21 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Team3S:
suspention mods
I'm finally getting around to installing my suspension
mods --- Eibach springs/GC perches, GAB
struts
GC caster/camber plate,
Stillen brake lines. Most of the work seems pretty straight forward,
but
I've
never done camber/caster plates. Any tricks/hints as to
installation of the plates. I am a little
concerned
as to how to get them
aligned properly, these have a four bolt pattern vs. the stock three bolt.
I
would
prefer that the strut tower didn't look like Swiss cheese when I
was done.
Jim Berry
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:58:51 -0400
From: Bill Wagner <wagner@sprynet.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Level 10 Performance Transmission
A guy on the 3SI web site indicated
that the company "Level 10", which
apparently specializes in making high
performance transmissions and
parts, is offering a kit for the 3000
GT/Stealth. Their web site is
"www.levelten.com".
Has anyone heard
of them, contacted them, etc???
Thanks,
Bill Wagner
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:42:00 -0700
From: "Terry Swift" <tlswift@hotbot.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Level 10 Performance Transmission
Looked at their website and
seems to be for "Auto's" only - no manuals. Maybe I missed something -
just a quick cursory look.
- --
On Tue, 13 Jul 1999
23:58:51 Bill Wagner wrote:
>A guy on the 3SI web site
indicated that the company "Level 10", which
>apparently specializes in
making high performance transmissions and
>parts, is offering a kit for
the 3000 GT/Stealth. Their web site
is
>"www.levelten.com".
>
>Has anyone heard of them, contacted
them, etc???
>
>Thanks,
>
>Bill
Wagner
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
HotBot
- Search smarter.
http://www.hotbot.com
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:42:34 -0700
From: "Terry Swift" <tlswift@hotbot.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Level 10 Performance Transmission
Looked at their website and
seems to be for "Auto's" only - no manuals. Maybe I missed something -
just a quick cursory look.
- --
On Tue, 13 Jul 1999
23:58:51 Bill Wagner wrote:
>A guy on the 3SI web site
indicated that the company "Level 10", which
>apparently specializes in
making high performance transmissions and
>parts, is offering a kit for
the 3000 GT/Stealth. Their web site
is
>"www.levelten.com".
>
>Has anyone heard of them, contacted
them, etc???
>
>Thanks,
>
>Bill
Wagner
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
HotBot
- Search smarter.
http://www.hotbot.com
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 14 Jul 1999 06:58:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: ie886@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John
T. Christian)
Subject: Team3S: High Boost the easy way
Hi
All,
This solution seems too easy and too cheap.
Why not change
the waste gate actuator from one that starts to open at 4psi
to a new one
that actuates at 11psi?
That eliminates a whole bunch of expensive
electronic equipment etc. Makes
for less plumbing and is
simpler.
As some of you know, I'm installing a set of 13gs to replace a
blown rear
turbo. I stuck a vac/pressure gauge on the stock actuator
and it starts to
move at 4psi. The waste gate valve start to open at
4.5psi. The new 13g
does the same, except the waste gate valve begins
to open at 5psi. For all
purposes, I'd call them the same.
Perhaps higher pressure actuators are not available????
Don't
let anyone tell you changing the turbos is a quick and easy job.
Bleeding,
bruised and Lifetime Member of the dirty fingernails club.....
-
--
JCZoooM '93 Stealth TT Blue
almost stock 12.46 @109 MPH
e-mail: ie886@po.cwru.edu www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:15:38 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: High Boost the easy way
Sure, this is a way to go, but
first the actuators are bad ass expensive and
second, the $4 bleeder valve is
a little bit less expensive and does
absolutely the same.
Why do we
use EBCs ? They are able to control the wastegates more adequate
and offer
sequirity as well as different settings for different ambients.
They allow
you to build up boost in a different way opening the wastegates
immediately
at a specific boost level and alternate them to keep the
desired
level.
Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT
>Why not
change the waste gate actuator from one that starts to open at 4psi
>to a
new one that actuates at 11psi?
>
>That eliminates a whole
bunch of expensive electronic equipment etc. Makes
>for less
plumbing and is simpler.
>
>As some of you know, I'm installing a
set of 13gs to replace a blown rear
>turbo. I stuck a vac/pressure
gauge on the stock actuator and it starts to
>move at 4psi. The waste gate
valve start to open at 4.5psi. The new 13g
>does the same, except
the waste gate valve begins to open at 5psi. For all
>purposes, I'd
call them the same.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:26:59 EDT
From: MitsuVR41@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Fwd:
New 95 TT Engine problems I need help please!
-
--part1_2e335bf5.24bdea23_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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Content-Type:
message/rfc822
Content-Disposition: inline
Return-path: MitsuVR41@aol.com
From: MitsuVR41@aol.com
Full-name: MitsuVR4
1
Message-ID: <2e335bf5.24bde9d5@aol.com>
Date:
Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:25:41 EDT
Subject: New 95 TT Engine problems I need
help please!
To: robby@freesurf.ch
MIME-Version:
1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for
Windows sub 11
Hello everyone! I sold my 92 VR-4 and then broke down and
bought a 95 VR-4
which ran smoothly. But now, 1,000 miles
later, a valve is ticking really
bad. I think it is in the
rear. So I guess I need to replace the lash
adjusters I think. I
was wondering, how involved is changing the rear 12
lash adjusters as
far has removing and replacing the adjusters themselves??
I can handle
removing the intake plenum and valve covers etc... Is this a
job that
is accomplishable with standard tools? I have changed injectors,
plugs, plug wires, fuel filters, clutch hose, brake pads. I have
gutted my
precats before and changed starters. Should I just take the
car in the shop
or what guys? Thanks in advance.
-
--part1_2e335bf5.24bdea23_boundary--
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:30:40 EDT
From: MitsuVR41@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Can
hear turbos spooling down, is this normal?
I had a 92 VR-4 and never
experienced what I experience in the 95 VR-4 off
and on. When I am
slowing down sometimes I can hear the turbos spooling
down. It sounds
like a weed eater. Is this normal? What does this mean?
Please help. Thanks in advance
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:36:26 -0500
From: "Brett Russell" <brussell@powercom.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Gutting precats
I've read posts about people gutting their cats
or precats and was wondering
if I could get some more information about
this. First, exactly what does
this mean? How do you go about
doing it, and what performance gain is
shown? Also, I have an HKS
exhaust, will that affect things at all?
Sorry for my lack of knowledge
about this, but that's what this list is for,
right? I'm learning new
things every day.
Thanks in advance,
Brett
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:05:49 EDT
From: Aso8@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Level 10 -
Unhappy customer
Level 10 . I'm very unhappy with Level 10.
I was
originally very pleased to have level 10 as the Tranny Builder &
sponsor
of my Turbo 97 Honda Civic Automatic (see car in Sports Compact Car
June 99
issue). My Tuner also wanted me to use them & he had his 700 HP
300ZX Turbo
also done by Level 10. We both have had nothing but PROBLEMS.
After many
attempts to fix my $4000+ Level 10 Tranny, without decent
results, Level 10
finally said - Take your car elsewhere. They would not
honor the guaranty any
longer. Keep in mind this was a new job, let alone
they offer a lifetime
guaranty on a true performance rebuild. I would never
use them again for a
gasket.
Arty 91 VR-4, 97 Honda Civic Turbo, now a
four speed stick.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:07:48 -0600
From: "Jeffrey Young" <jefyoung@ix.netcom.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Gutting precats
Brett;
The precats are small catalitic
converters that sit just behind the turbos.
They are used to control
emmissions when the car first starts up and the
main cat isn't up to
operational tempurature. You'll have to pull the
downpipe off to get to
the precats. I used a long masonary bit on a drill
to remove the
honeycomb in the precat housing. As far as performnce gain,
it helps by
removing a restriction in the exhaust line. Turbos will spool a
little
quicker because of less backpressure. If you haven't replaced
your
downpipe, this would be a good time to do it, since it is already
pulled
off. Also a hiflo main cat or test pipe (off road use only ...)
along with
your HKS catback would finish the exhaust side of your
modifications.
Jeffrey
92 RT/Turbo
www.omega-sw.com/stealth
I've
read posts about people gutting their cats or precats and was wondering
if I
could get some more information about this. First, exactly what
does
this mean? How do you go about doing it, and what performance gain
is
shown? Also, I have an HKS exhaust, will that affect things at
all?
Sorry for my lack of knowledge about this, but that's what this list
is for,
right? I'm learning new things every day.
Thanks in
advance,
Brett
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:23:09 EDT
From: Czarcd@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Lash
Adjusters
Members,
I have determined that the ticking sound that
got louder are my Lash
Adjusters. I am 95% sure. Has anyone here
ever taken on the endeavor of
changing them by themselves. How hard is
it to do? Do you need any special
tools. Is there any negative
consequences w/ just changing the bad one or
should I change them
all.
Thanx in advance for your help.
Carlo
Black
91 Stealth
RT Twin Turbo
3SI#
317
P.S.
I anyone is capable of sending me scanned copies of the
procedure from their
manual, I would appreciate it. I could also use the
procedure for
changing the back plugs and wires, and also the starter. Thanx
again
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:00:03 -0500
From: "Matt Jannusch" <mattj@fallon.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
High Boost the easy way
> Sure, this is a way to go, but first
the actuators are bad ass
> expensive and
> second, the $4 bleeder
valve is a little bit less expensive and does
> absolutely the
same.
It doesn't really do the same thing as the wastegates still see
pressure
before you hit the correct boost level. If the wastegate is
partially open
early, then your turbo isn't going to spool up as quickly as
possible.
> Why do we use EBCs ? They are able to control the
wastegates more adequate
> and offer sequirity as well as different
settings for different ambients.
> They allow you to build up boost in a
different way opening the wastegates
> immediately at a specific boost
level and alternate them to keep
> the desired level.
You don't
need an EBC to have the wastegate open at a specific boost level.
The best
alternative to an EBC is the Hallman controller. You can get them
for
$90 from Buschur Racing (http://www.buschurracing.com). It
is a spring
and ball type restrictor which lets the boost pressure through to
the
wastegate when boost pressure exceeds the pressure put on the
spring. It
works way better than any electronic controller I've seen
and is a lot
easier to adjust. You can't adjust it from the cockpit,
but you get rock
solid boost control for a lot less money that you can put
towards something
more useful. If it is good enough for a 9.59-second
DSM, it is good enough
for us!
A Hallman is replacing my EVC IV as
soon as possible. Anyone want to buy
the EVC?
- -Matt
'95
3000GT Spyder VR4
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------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:41:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sam_Wong@hyperdream.com
Subject:
Team3S: Vibrations Again
For the past 1.5 years, I've been complaining
about a driveline vibration
in my '93 Stealth Turbo during steady speeds
while in gear. I'd like to post
my problem again and see if I can get
more help.
Symptom: Driveline vibration felt in the seat. Seems to
be more noticeable
in the rear. Occurs while only in gear, not in
neutral. Occurs only at
around 30mph in 2nd gear, 45mph in 3rd, and
60mph in 4th. Vibration goes
away when speed is higher or lower than
those indicated at each gear.
Vibration is more noticeable when
applying the gas pedal.
Work Done To Help Fix Problem:
1.
Replaced driveshaft carrier bearing
2. Replaced tires
3. Replaced
transmission output shaft and transfercase spool
4. Inspected engine and
transmission mounts (Seems fine)
5. Inspected wheels (Seems fine)
6. Front
end alignment
Things I am considering:
1. Replace
driveshaft
Any other ideas? Could it be the driveshaft? I'm
not too sure where else
to look.
Thanks,
Sam.
- --
Sam_Wong at hyperdream.com | http://www.hyperdream.com/~samw
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------------------------------
End
of Team3S Digest V1 #231
****************************
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