--

From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com (Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S Digest V1 #230
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Errors-To: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Precedence: bulk


Team3S Digest          Tuesday, July 13 1999          Volume 01 : Number 230




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:32:02 -0700
From: "Murat Okcuoglu" <murat@ashacorp.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: turbo comparisons

Roger,

Do you imply that there are different turbo's on 3S cars depending on
mitsu/chrysler badge or US/Europe market? I was under the impression that
all 3S had identical turbos regardless. if this not the case, can you make a
chart listing variations??

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:37:06 -0700
From: "Murat Okcuoglu" <murat@ashacorp.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: WI - Pump

What about corrosion? which brand/model fuel pump do you exacly use?

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:58:48 -0700
From: David Chen <Neubine@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: J.D. Power vs. Mitsu Survey (Getrag Tranny Probs)

In Japan, Japanese Police Officers use a GTO. But like many cops here
thier cars are modified. The factory modifies the ECU to perform better.
I believe this is better than GForce's because it's modified by
engineers at Mitsubishi and is not a piggy back system. They remove the
Speed Limiter, Rev limiter is raised, Boost level is raised and the fuel
and ignistion curve are modified. I know for a fact that M&S has one in
stock as of right now. They actually have half of a Police GTO that
somehow got into a wreck =) Probably chasing a Skyline or something. You
would need the Japanese Harness though as it might be a little diffrent
than 94+. (91-93) should be the same.

What my local parts guy tells me is that he can order these parts for me
because it like american police cars. When they sell them back to the
public as used cars they need parts too. He used to work at For Chevy
and Ford and ordered parts for Caprises and Crown Victorias. He says
that he can order any Japanese or Police factory parts. He just needs
the part number.


Murat Okcuoglu wrote:

> "Factory Modified Police Versions ECUs "
>
> This seems very intersting!! can you get/post more info??

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:05:05 -0700
From: "Dave Allison" <dallison@siebel.com>
Subject: Team3S: Intercooler/WIS vs. Injectors/VPC

I would think an intercooler upgrade would indeed improve
performance on an otherwise stock vehicle (with bleeder valve or BC).

The purpose of increasing the size of the injectors is to allow more
fuel to be dumped into the combustion chamber for cooling purposes, not
because we're running the mixture too lean. The reason adding more fuel with
larger injectors, upgraded fuel pump, VPC, etc., allows us to increase the
boost pressure is because the extra fuel has a cooling effect with decreases
temperature/detonation, allowing an increase in boost to the point where
eventually cooling becomes a problem again due to the increased boost.

The recent tests that have been performed with the water injection
have proven that cooling of the intake charge is more important than
upgrading the fuel system. Adding more fuel is a crude way to cool things
down. Extra fuel being used to cool the intake charge is wasted fuel. Much
better is to cool the charge with intercooler upgrades and water injection,
IMO.

The fact that the gentlemen testing the water injection system was
previously able to boost to 19lbs without encountering detonation,
compliments of a knock detector, reveals to us that boost can be increased
significantly without bumping our heads on a lean condition. FUEL IS NOT THE
PROBLEM... COOLING IS.

My thinking is this... Why increase injector size, replace fuel
pump, purchase fuel computer, and screw around with your fuel ratio,
potentially CAUSING a lean condition while experimenting... when you can
just take care of the root of the problem by cooling the intake charge in a
more direct, elegant way? (water injection, intercooler upgrade). What kind
of boost increase is possible with an intercooler upgrade AND a water
injection system?! You can easily spend well over $3K on on an
injector/pump/VPC package, while an intercooler upgrade is in the
neighborhood of $2.5K. I'd like to see some HP results from an
intercooler/water injection system upgrade and see how they compare with the
traditional fuel system frenzy.

For myself, I would choose the simpler intercooler/WIS upgrade
before screwing around with my fuel system. You simply cool and increase the
boost until detonation occurs. No fuel maps. No lean conditions. No rough
idling issues. No 550cc chips. No GCC. No AF meters. No MAS upgrades. No RPM
based fuel computers! Why add fuel when it's not what's needed?

If Roger's tests further validate the previously published
experiments, I'll be adding a water injection system soon!

Thanks.

Dave


- -----Original Message-----
From: R.G. [mailto:robby@freesurf.ch]
Sent: Sunday, July 11, 1999 4:07 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Re: Intercooler / exhaust upgrade (was : major
questions to ask)



First, an intercooler does not make ponies. It's the gain in boost what
gives you the hp ! Intercooler upgrade ($1500-$2800) is one of the more
effective upgrades as a cooler discharged air is denser and lowers the
detonation point. Unfortunately, this will not help you on an otherwise
stock TT car. As usual the fuel system must be mentioned and on the paper
it's not able to deliver the needed fuel for boosts of more than 15psi
( This is the first step to do.

As you want another exhaust sound, just get rid of the huge muffler and
replace it with a smaller one. This is the cheapest way to get sound without
loss of performance. A larger exhaust will give you more benefit only when
other restrictions like the pre-cats have been removed.

Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT

>making my car faster. how much hp increase does a larger intercooler make?
>and how much might this cost. also what would be a good exaust to get. i
want
>something that sounds deep and gives good preformance.


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:03:26 -0700
From: David Chen <Neubine@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Team3S: Japanese Rear light

 I just got the part number for the Japanese version Tailights. I
beliveve that diffrence is the blinks and stop lights are yellow orange.

Koto 220-37598

David Chen
Neubine@Ix.netcom.com

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:17:24 -0500
From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: WI - Pump

It is a Puralator, I'll have to check on the model.  Not sure about
corrosion, didn't think of that.  Says it's compatable with all types of
fuel, wonder if that includes water?  :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: Murat Okcuoglu [SMTP:murat@ashacorp.com]
Sent: Monday, July 12, 1999 11:37 AM
To: Basol, John; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: WI - Pump

What about corrosion? which brand/model fuel pump do you exacly use?
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:33:09 -0700
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: turbo comparisons

Murat...

I'll jump in here, having talked to both Roger and TEC extensively.
Mitsubishi claims ALL European, Japanese, and North American 3KGTs come from
the factory with 9Bs. HOWEVER, Roger has a 1993 3KGT with 13Gs, straight
from the dealer. Roger has pictures of his turbos. Since the 13G is a
Mitsubishi product with the same housing as the 9B only with larger wheels
and improved cooling jackets (whereas 15Gs are the result of modifications
done by TEC), it seems reasonable that they would've put them on some
models, even though we wouldn't see the difference without carefully
checking the part numbers. I don't think we have any data from Canada, but
it's also possible that they have some 13G versions lurking about.

Looking forward...Chris

- -----Original Message-----
From: Murat Okcuoglu [mailto:murat@ashacorp.com]
Sent: Monday, July 12, 1999 9:32 AM
To: robby@swissonline.ch; team 3si
Subject: Re: Team3S: turbo comparisons


Roger,

Do you imply that there are different turbo's on 3S cars depending on
mitsu/chrysler badge or US/Europe market? I was under the impression that
all 3S had identical turbos regardless. if this not the case, can you make a
chart listing variations??
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:43:06 -0700
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: Japanese Police ECU

David...

OK...so what's the Mitsu part number on the Japanese Police ECU that M&S
has? I'm sure there's a number of us that would check out pricing and
availability.

BTW, why would it matter if it's piggyback or not, as long as the new
program is the same?

Looking forward...Chris

- -----Original Message-----
From: David Chen [mailto:Neubine@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Monday, July 12, 1999 9:59 AM
To: Team3S
Subject: Re: Team3S: J.D. Power vs. Mitsu Survey (Getrag Tranny Probs)

In Japan, Japanese Police Officers use a GTO. But like many cops here
thier cars are modified. The factory modifies the ECU to perform better.
I believe this is better than GForce's because it's modified by
engineers at Mitsubishi and is not a piggy back system. They remove the
Speed Limiter, Rev limiter is raised, Boost level is raised and the fuel
and ignistion curve are modified. I know for a fact that M&S has one in
stock as of right now. They actually have half of a Police GTO that
somehow got into a wreck =) Probably chasing a Skyline or something. You
would need the Japanese Harness though as it might be a little diffrent
than 94+. (91-93) should be the same.
<snip>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:54:24 -0500
From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: Team3S: FLow rate

Roger (or anybody),
Do you know how to calculate the flow rate of a pump at a certain
pressure, given the flow rate at a different pressure.  Is it something that
would be linear?

- -John Basol
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 13:25:31 -0500
From: "Gabriel Estrada" <typhoonzz@earthlink.net>
Subject: Team3S: Turbo Oil

While changing my oil last night I actually read the owners manual to see
how much oil the car was suposed to hold.  For the pan and the filter it was
4.2 qts.  There was an additional 1.5(approx) qts for the turbo.  When I
filled the car up last night it only took the 4.2 for filter and oilpan,
nothing doing for the turbo.  How do you check and change the turbo oil, or
is this possible.  Hope this is not a stupid question, but when you get a
litle educated, you become dangerous so I want to make sure that I have
everything done properly.
Thanks,
Gabe Estrada
94 Pearl Yellow VR-4
92 GMC Typhoon

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:52:20 -0700
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Turbo Oil

Gabe...

There's no such thing as a stupid question...I just checked my owners manual
(to make sure my memory hadn't gone south since last Thursday when I changed
my oil). My manual (1995 3KGT) says 4 quarts for the pan, 1/2 quart for the
filter, 1/2 quart for the oil cooler. At least 98% of this oil (5 quarts
total) will drain when you pull the drain plug and filter. There is no other
procedure (known to me) for removing the last ~2% that hangs up in the nooks
and crannies of the system.

Looking forward...Chris

- -----Original Message-----
From: Gabriel Estrada [mailto:typhoonzz@earthlink.net]
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 11:26 AM
To: 3K Mailing list
Subject: Team3S: Turbo Oil


While changing my oil last night I actually read the owners manual to see
how much oil the car was suposed to hold.  For the pan and the filter it was
4.2 qts.  There was an additional 1.5(approx) qts for the turbo.  When I
filled the car up last night it only took the 4.2 for filter and oilpan,
nothing doing for the turbo.  How do you check and change the turbo oil, or
is this possible.  Hope this is not a stupid question, but when you get a
litle educated, you become dangerous so I want to make sure that I have
everything done properly.
Thanks,
Gabe Estrada
94 Pearl Yellow VR-4
92 GMC Typhoon

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:59:05 -0700
From: David Chen <Neubine@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Team3S: Police ECU

I don't have the part number, I know I should have but i guess I'm just
too forgetful. =) You can call AMS though they have it. Thier number
is1-800-695-4700, I know for a fact that they have one in stock. They
actually just got the remenants of a Police GTO.

As to Piggy back programing, I'm not sure if piggy back is the best but
I do know that Factory Engineers would definalty be better than anything
what G-Forces does because they have better tools, resources and data to
program the ECU for top performance.

Dave



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:08:56 -0700
From: "Dave Allison" <dallison@siebel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Police ECU

What are the differences/features of the Police GTO ECU?

Thanks.

Dave

- -----Original Message-----
From: David Chen [mailto:Neubine@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Monday, July 12, 1999 11:59 AM
To: Team3S
Subject: Team3S: Police ECU



I don't have the part number, I know I should have but i guess I'm just
too forgetful. =) You can call AMS though they have it. Thier number
is1-800-695-4700, I know for a fact that they have one in stock. They
actually just got the remenants of a Police GTO.

As to Piggy back programing, I'm not sure if piggy back is the best but
I do know that Factory Engineers would definalty be better than anything
what G-Forces does because they have better tools, resources and data to
program the ECU for top performance.

Dave



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:51:47 -0500
From: "Gabriel Estrada" <typhoonzz@earthlink.net>
Subject: Team3S: Spark Plugs

Before I go and buy plugs and wires, 2 Questions
Are the stock plug wire sufficient for every day driving with an occasional
trip to the track.
What is the best plug to use, do I regap or leave alone, and what can I
expect to pay for the plugs?
Thanks Again ,
Gabe Estrada
94 Pearl Yellow 3000 GT VR-4
92 GMC Typhoon



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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:18:05 +1200
From: Kevin Clark <Kevin.Clark@hnz.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Japanese Rear light

> I just got the part number for the Japanese version
> Tailights. I beliveve that diffrence is the blinks
> and stop lights are yellow orange.
>
> Koto 220-37598

Japan along with much of the world actually distinguish
between indicators (turning lights, blinkers, etc) and
brake lights.  Brake lights are always RED, while the
indicators are typically an orange colour.

If anyone is interested the following link is to a
picture of rear end of my 1991 Japanese GTO.

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/8443/Images_Gto_gto_rear-l.jpg

Cheers,
Kevin Clark
'91 GTO-VR4

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:58:49 -0700
From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Intercooler/WIS vs. Injectors/VPC

snip
>         My thinking is this... Why increase injector size, replace fuel
> pump, purchase fuel computer, and screw around with your fuel ratio,
> potentially CAUSING a lean condition while experimenting... when you can
> just take care of the root of the problem by cooling the intake charge in a
> more direct, elegant way? (water injection, intercooler upgrade). What kind
> of boost increase is possible with an intercooler upgrade AND a water
> injection system?! You can easily spend well over $3K on on an
> injector/pump/VPC package, while an intercooler upgrade is in the
> neighborhood of $2.5K. I'd like to see some HP results from an
> intercooler/water injection system upgrade and see how they compare with the
> traditional fuel system frenzy.
snip

You are assuming that the sole reason for more fuel is for cooling.  You are
forgetting that rich and lean conditions are a result of improper air-fuel
ratio.  As you increase the amount of air going into the engine (higher boost),
you must also increase the amount of fuel so as to maintain the proper air-fuel
ratio.  I think folks have reported injector duty cycles over 90% at about 15
psi with stock turbos.  Thus psi over 17 will cause the injectors to be maxed
out and unable to provide enough fuel which will result in a lean and dangerous
condition.

The reason for fuel system upgrades is to maintain proper air-fuel ratios above
15psi.  The reason for water injection is to push detonation from 16 psi to a
higher (hopefully much higher) boost level.

- --
Hang up and drive!

Ken Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:22:42 -0700
From: "Dave Allison" <dallison@siebel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Intercooler/WIS vs. Injectors/VPC

Ken,

Please read the rest of my post.

I agree that the idea of additional fuel in SOME cars is to maintain
a stochiometric air/fuel ratio as you increase boost, but this is not the
case in our cars up to 19psi. The additional fuel, apparently up to 19psi,
is beneficial only as a cooling agent. If this were not the case, the WIS
poster would have experienced knock due to a lean condition while turning up
the boost.

You state, "The reason for fuel system upgrades is to maintain
proper air-fuel ratios above
15psi." I cannot agree with this statement. If the air/fuel ratio were
incorrect he would have gotten detonation at 19psi in the WIS test results.
The detonation that occurs is due to intake charge heat, not air/fuel ratio.
I'm not sure you understand the relationship between air/fuel ratio and
detonation. A sign of a lean condition is indeed detonation. He increased
the boost without increasing the fuel. According to your theory he should
have experienced air/fuel ratio problems resulting in detonation. He didn't.

I most definitely agree with your statement about the injector duty
cycle on stock injectors. I myself hit 100% IDC when at WOT and 15psi. But
then, most owners who increase their boost to 15psi do not upgrade their
injectors simultaneously. IDC readings are a better reason to suggest
upgraded injectors than air/fuel ratio.

With the facts before me I feel comfortable saying that the sole
reason for more fuel IS for cooling... up to 19psi.

I may be wrong. It could be even higher boost than that! :)

Seeya!

Dave



- -----Original Message-----
From: Ken Middaugh [mailto:Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com]
Sent: Monday, July 12, 1999 1:59 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Intercooler/WIS vs. Injectors/VPC


snip
>         My thinking is this... Why increase injector size, replace fuel
> pump, purchase fuel computer, and screw around with your fuel ratio,
> potentially CAUSING a lean condition while experimenting... when you can
> just take care of the root of the problem by cooling the intake charge in
a
> more direct, elegant way? (water injection, intercooler upgrade). What
kind
> of boost increase is possible with an intercooler upgrade AND a water
> injection system?! You can easily spend well over $3K on on an
> injector/pump/VPC package, while an intercooler upgrade is in the
> neighborhood of $2.5K. I'd like to see some HP results from an
> intercooler/water injection system upgrade and see how they compare with
the
> traditional fuel system frenzy.
snip

You are assuming that the sole reason for more fuel is for cooling.  You are
forgetting that rich and lean conditions are a result of improper air-fuel
ratio.  As you increase the amount of air going into the engine (higher
boost),
you must also increase the amount of fuel so as to maintain the proper
air-fuel
ratio.  I think folks have reported injector duty cycles over 90% at about
15
psi with stock turbos.  Thus psi over 17 will cause the injectors to be
maxed
out and unable to provide enough fuel which will result in a lean and
dangerous
condition.

The reason for fuel system upgrades is to maintain proper air-fuel ratios
above
15psi.  The reason for water injection is to push detonation from 16 psi to
a
higher (hopefully much higher) boost level.

- --
Hang up and drive!

Ken Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:04:15 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: WI - Pump

Too bad, my WI installation is going slow as I had to do some business trips
lately.

> Wow fuel cut sure is an effective method of slowing the car down!  :-)

Yeah, it's hard to get the tooths out of the steering wheel ;-))

>was that the water nozzle was clogged again, but when I tried to manually
>turn the pump on to check the nozzle, the pump wouldn't even turn on!

Ok, pump died but what water filter are you using or is delivered with teh
pump ? You may change the thing as well ? As far as I remember, the nozzle
is installed in the ellbow of the y-pipe, but where exactly (under-side,
upper side, etc.) ERL told me to watch the postion of teh yet as it should
not be un the lower half of the pipe due to oil deposits that may appear
there. Of course I got the information AFTER I already isntalled the front
jet :((( But it shouldn't be a problem as it is not in the ellbow and
mounted in about 40° angle.

> Water consumption has changed a bit now. I went through almost a
>whole tank of water in about 75 "spirited" miles.

How big is the tank ?

>tried the next size larger water jet and the car did not like it, so I went
>back.

What were the symptons ?

> My recommendation, anyone looking to use a Spearco, replace that
>stupid pump that comes with it with a big fuel pump.

Well, the price for the Spearco is that low that additional $50 is not a big
deal :))

Later
Roger
93'3000GT TT
ERL WI still not fully installed :((


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:17:32 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: turbo comparisons

>Do you imply that there are different turbo's on 3S cars depending on
>mitsu/chrysler badge or US/Europe market?

Yes, I checked two other 3000GT in Switzerland and they had the same 13G
turbos as I have in my 93 version. We also thought the Injectors are bigger
but they are not. Stealths have never been imprted to Europe as well as
there are no NA cars around.

>I was under the impression thatall 3S had identical turbos regardless.
>if this not the case, can you make a chart listing variations??

I can only speak for Europe and the differences in the manuals I have. I
don't know for any other country and it seems that we are having the bigger
turbos to keep the discharge temperature on a moderate level on teh high
speed autobahn in Germany.

Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:31:04 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: FLow rate

> Do you know how to calculate the flow rate of a pump at a certain
>pressure, given the flow rate at a different pressure.  Is it something
that
>would be linear?

Flow rate and pressure must be given by the manufacturer. It is
calculatable, although there are some variables we do not have :( Therefore
it must bee tested if teh table is not given. It is linear (higher pressure
= less flow) in it's operating range and the curve falls down very fast at
the top end.

Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:44:44 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Police ECU

Dave, thanks for the information, and of course there is a big interest in
this :)

Warning : I started to think ..... :
- - What if the ECU is made for different injectors fuel pump. How do we know
?
- - What if a Jap cop car has different turbos as well and therefore the ECU
  is made for this ?
- - What if the knock sensor is different to serve the different "operationg
area"

There are many other whats and we just do not have to forget the accessoires
around an ECU. I once installed the G-Force ECU with the mildest program in
my car and had a huge advance in timing and the y-pipe blew off in no time.
The rpms increased much faster and ... yep, I runned damn lean as the
program was made for bigger injectors I do have installed. " Das war nicht
gut !!" And yes, the engine was already damaged :((

>As to Piggy back programing, I'm not sure if piggy back is the best but
>I do know that Factory Engineers would definalty be better than anything
>what G-Forces does because they have better tools, resources and data to
>program the ECU for top performance.

I agree as long you have a car WITH ONLY THE MODS the cop car has ! If you
choose to run bigger injectors a  new program can be adapted for them. If
you change to bigger turbos a program can be adapted for them. You want to
gain more with runnign a little leaner with advanced timing but still with
the safety retards at high boost, the program can be adapted for this
purpose. As Chris already stated, if the program in the cop ECU is also
loaded into the G-Force the ECU is the same ! But I'd be able to go further
and again change this program  :)

Therefore, cop ECU may be good, but custom tuning and MORE power is better.

Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT

PS: A japanes guy made a police car out of my 3000GT I made for "Need For
Speed" :)))

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:33:55 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Boost Levels and Fuel Mods

Thanks Chris :)

>9B = 265 cfm
>13G = 360 cfm
>15G = 460 cfm

Did they also said on what boost the compressor wheels are able to flow at
this amount of air (i.e. efficiency) ? I wish to get the "pressure/discharge
temp." graph for the turbos as well :))

I like to refresh the brains again. In an earlier post I described how to
calculate the air flow on our cars (yadda, yadda)

Stock Wategates open :
(182in^3 * 7000rpm * 0.5 *0.9 * 1 (0 bars of boost)) / 1728 = 332 cfm

Stock 0.5 bars:
(182in^3 * 7000rpm * 0.5 *0.9 * 1.5 (0.5 bars of boost)) / 1728 = 498 cfm ->
249 cfm per turbo

Modified 1.05 bars :
(182in^3 * 7000rpm * 0.5 *0.9 * 2.05 (1.05 bars of boost)) / 1728 = 680
cfm ->
340 cfm per turbo

AHA ! Now somebody once asked me if the stock turbos can hold boost up to
the redline at 15psi ? Hmm, 340cfm per turbo is needed but the 9B only is
only able to flow 265cfm. Furthermore we do not know if this figure is right
as the efficiency is degraded then.

What max boost will we get at 5k, 6k and 7k rpm with the 9B ? (hacking on
the calc)
5k : 1.3 bars (18 psi)
6k : 0.9 bars (12.5 psi)
7k : 0.6 bars (8.7 psi)

Question answered ... no !

Of course, these are theoretical calculations but they are damn close to the
reality. The difference to the plus side is that boost is pumped up and this
calculated values are possible sustained boost. It is possible that you can
see 10 or more psi at the redline but only pumped and over the time it will
come back to a lower value.

>Now, clearly (IMO), the more air you flow, the higher the boost you can
>produce and the longer you can sustain it. HOWEVER, that is dependent on a
>number of other factors, primarily the fuel system.

You are right ! We always have to fight with another value ... detonation.
The calculations are based on a healthy engine without very hard
calculatable detonation problems (I'm working on it)

>My question...Roger...why do you say a person would lose 70 hp by adding
>larger injectors and fuel pump?

I've maybe been hit by my internal language translator :) If you increase
the fuel system and add boost a lot fuel will be consumed just for cooling
purposes. This is wasted (unburnt) fuel = wasted energy = wasted power.
Depending on the boost you can read the IDC with the bigger injectors and
calculate the power (energy) in the fuel. But you'll get much less on the
dyno due to the wasted stuff. And this is because the efficiency is getting
degraded and the fuel wasted may be worth 70hp !!

So I didn't want to say that you loose power but you waste fuel worth 70hp
at 1.3 bars :) You'll regain it with better intercooling or WI ;-)

Later,
Roger
93'3000GT TT


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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:51:12 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Intercooler/WIS vs. Injectors/VPC

> I would think an intercooler upgrade would indeed improve
>performance on an otherwise stock vehicle (with bleeder valve or BC).

>The purpose of increasing the size of the injectors is to allow more
<snip>

You are very right with the statements and you're right our enemy is
detonation and cooling the stuff with fuel is not the best idea !

>The recent tests that have been performed with the water injection
>have proven that cooling of the intake charge is more important than
>upgrading the fuel system. Adding more fuel is a crude way to cool things
>down. Extra fuel being used to cool the intake charge is wasted fuel. Much
>better is to cool the charge with intercooler upgrades and water injection,
>IMO.

Again, a big yes but here you are forgetting something : More boost means
more air, and more air means ... more fuel !!

>FUEL IS NOT THE PROBLEM... COOLING IS.

Yes, but :
- - Do you want more power = get rid of the detonation and crank up da boost
- - Do you want more power = more fuel is needed as boost has been increased

On 1.05 bars, Jims AVC-R showed an IDC of more than 90% and about 405 SAE hp
on the dyno. This proves my calculations on the Excel worksheet and there
you can see that the fuel system is just not able to deliver more fuel.
Again, my values are theoretically calculated and some pumps may flow more
or less as blueprinted as well as injectors do. But I was surprised with the
data are that close to the real world :)

>of boost increase is possible with an intercooler upgrade AND a water
>injection system?!

This highly depends on the higher efficiency of the IC parts. With this you
can calculate the new boost where yo uare getting the same combustion
chamber temperatures as before. Please also note that any turbo at its end
sometimes (boost wise). Therefore an increase from 14 to 15 psi of boost may
only increase the discharge temperature by, let's say, 5°F while an increase
from 15-16psi can cause. say 20°F increase. This because the compressor
wheel runs out of its area and the efficiency is highly degraded then.
Therefore upgrading to a bigger turbo makes much sense too !

>I'd like to see some HP results from anintercooler/water injection system
upgrade and
>see how they compare with the traditional fuel system frenzy.

Hmm, ok, I'll spend the $100 for the additional dyno session and stay with
the stock fuel parts on the first one. This way we'll get a base and with
the TMO datalogger together with my own data logging I should able to
present a nice graph then. Damn, I need three laptops in my car ;-)))

> For myself, I would choose the simpler intercooler/WIS upgrade
>before screwing around with my fuel system. You simply cool and increase
the
>boost until detonation occurs.

You already read the stuff before and therefore you know that there is just
no more fuel for more power !

> No fuel maps. No lean conditions. No rough
>idling issues. No 550cc chips. No GCC. No AF meters. No MAS upgrades. No
RPM
>based fuel computers! Why add fuel when it's not what's needed?

You forgot something : no more power (no fuel to burn)

>> If Roger's tests further validate the previously published
>experiments, I'll be adding a water injection system soon!


Yo'd not be the only one, hehe.

Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT


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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 04:53:02 -0500
From: xwing <xwing@execpc.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Fuelpump Flow rate

"Basol, John" wrote:

> Do you know how to calculate the flow rate of pump at certain
> pressure, given flow rate at different pressure.  Is it linear?

It is not linear.  The flow rate falls in a curve, more and more
pressure leading to quicker and quicker drop in flowrate.   More
a  parabolic or logarithmic function.  It cannot be exactly
calculated because the motor/pump design and dynamics are
different from pump to pump, though I suspect one could
estimate it with three flow datapoints at significantly different
pressures.

Currently, I would (and have) gotten the Toyota Supra Mk IV
fuelpump, which is a Denso pump (identical outwardly to ours)
but flows way more based on actual tests done by a DSM list
member.  Through the whole DSM fuel system including all
fuel lines, filter, and regulator it flowed 240 liters/hour
at 65 psi!  The HKS is rated at 290 l/h but that is NOT through
any fuel lines/filter, and is probably even at only 45 psi.  Lowell
Foo, who did tests, said it flows to 110psi +, and our stock TT
pumps stop flow at 90psi.  He suspects the HKS pump for our
cars (which is the Mazda Cosmo pump in Japan) may well
BE the same as Supra pump.  At any rate, the Supra pump
only costs $183 through Toyotaparts.com on internet, can
find phone #...

Jack Tertadian


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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:59:21 EDT
From: "Rice-Burner Crusher" <stealth_es@hotmail.com>
Subject: Team3S: Mods Q's (was Selling Price)

Okay..  hearing what you guys have said, I think I'll keep the car.  A
couple of questions, though..

1.) Is it possible to change my Auto tranny to a manual?  If so, who sells
kits and how do I go about it?

2.) I want to get some rims for my car..  I think I like the Enkei Wun-Gun
model.  Any ideas?  If I do this, I've thought about the Nitto NT555 for
tires.

3.) I want to lower my car.  I don't like that *gap* that's there.  Do I buy
lowering springs or whole new shocks? Where do I look?

4.) I want to make my car faster.  (Stock Non-turbo V6 DOHC) Can I buy
turbo's to add on?  Where do I go? What should I get?  What else can I do to
make my car faster.. ie..  air filter, chip, etc..?

5.) Also, who makes good body kits?  I've thought about it, but haven't seen
any..

Any and all help would be appreciated..

Thanks.


_______________________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:56:47 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Part wanted - HKS BOV

Arty,

Just check out the current installation (not yet finished) on my car. If you
haven't seen it already, check it out on my homepage.

> You're right. I'm going to use the Race type waste gates. With the Aquamist
> too.

What ERL System do you go with ?

> We had Aquamist on the phone for hours. They have no idea how to set it up on
> my car :) We wanted to know when to have it come on line...We'll just have to
> figure it out ourselves. My tuner is pretty good, we'll see just how good?

It should come on at about 12 psi, but of course this depends on the current
state of the car. I'd say to check out the detonation boost limit and then
inject the water 2 or 3 psi before of this.

Cheers,
Roger

- -----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,HKS SBOV,
ATR DP/testpipe,Borla Cat-back,OZ Mito2 rims,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines
Bremsa brakes,u-Mevius Street Race pads

Check out: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/3000gt.html
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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:56:25 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Spark Plugs

The stock NGKs and wires are good enough for mucho power :)
Just regap them to 0.034" and you'll be fine for higher boost.
Cost is about $9 - $12 per plug ($21 here in Europe, haha)

Roger
93'3000GT TT

>Before I go and buy plugs and wires, 2 Questions
>Are the stock plug wire sufficient for every day driving with an occasional
>trip to the track.
>What is the best plug to use, do I regap or leave alone, and what can I
>expect to pay for the plugs?


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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:56:52 -0700
From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Intercooler/WIS vs. Injectors/VPC

Dave Allison wrote:
>
> Ken,
>
>         Please read the rest of my post.
>
>         I agree that the idea of additional fuel in SOME cars is to maintain
> a stochiometric air/fuel ratio as you increase boost, but this is not the
> case in our cars up to 19psi.

In the ideal situation, the ONLY goal of a fuel system is to maintain proper
air/fuel ratio (which I think may be a little richer than stochiometric).

> The additional fuel, apparently up to 19psi,
> is beneficial only as a cooling agent.

Using fuel as a cooling agent is not an optimum practice, it is a band-aid.  In
our cars, I doubt that there would be a rich condition at high RPM at 19 psi
using the stock fuel system.  A properly sized system has to account for the
worst case.  7000RPM at 19psi will require fuel system upgrades to ensure proper
air/fuel ratio.

> If this were not the case, the WIS
> poster would have experienced knock due to a lean condition while turning up
> the boost.
>
>         You state, "The reason for fuel system upgrades is to maintain
> proper air-fuel ratios above
> 15psi." I cannot agree with this statement. If the air/fuel ratio were
> incorrect he would have gotten detonation at 19psi in the WIS test results.
> The detonation that occurs is due to intake charge heat, not air/fuel ratio.

Yes, detonation is pre-ignition due to excessive temperature.  Lean conditions
cause high temperatures, so I can see your linking detonation with lean
conditions.  However with sufficient cooling, I speculate that you can have a
lean condition without detonation.  Therefore I think it is an incorrect
decuction that the WIS poster didn't see detonation because the stock fuel
system was providing sufficient fuel at 19psi.  He may very well have been in a
lean situation.

> I'm not sure you understand the relationship between air/fuel ratio and
> detonation.

Undoubtedly true since my last brush with chemistry & physics was almost 20
years ago.  However I respectfully request that you change that to "completely
understand" :).

> A sign of a lean condition is indeed detonation. He increased
> the boost without increasing the fuel. According to your theory he should
> have experienced air/fuel ratio problems resulting in detonation. He didn't.

See above speculation.

>
>         I most definitely agree with your statement about the injector duty
> cycle on stock injectors. I myself hit 100% IDC when at WOT and 15psi. But
> then, most owners who increase their boost to 15psi do not upgrade their
> injectors simultaneously. IDC readings are a better reason to suggest
> upgraded injectors than air/fuel ratio.
>
>         With the facts before me I feel comfortable saying that the sole
> reason for more fuel IS for cooling... up to 19psi.
>
>         I may be wrong. It could be even higher boost than that! :)

Do you mean 19psi with 9B turbos, or 19psi at 7000RPM?

If detonation is taken care of with cooling by water injection, would you feel
comfortable running 19psi at redline on the stock fuel system?  I believe that
you would have a lean condition and therefore not be making optimum power.
Therefore my reason for upgrading the fuel system for 19psi is to achieve
maximum power, thus cooling is not the sole purpose of fuel upgrades.

>
> Seeya!
>
> Dave

Thanks for a thought inspiring reply,
Ken

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Middaugh [mailto:Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com]
> Sent: Monday, July 12, 1999 1:59 PM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Intercooler/WIS vs. Injectors/VPC
>
> snip
> >         My thinking is this... Why increase injector size, replace fuel
> > pump, purchase fuel computer, and screw around with your fuel ratio,
> > potentially CAUSING a lean condition while experimenting... when you can
> > just take care of the root of the problem by cooling the intake charge in
> a
> > more direct, elegant way? (water injection, intercooler upgrade). What
> kind
> > of boost increase is possible with an intercooler upgrade AND a water
> > injection system?! You can easily spend well over $3K on on an
> > injector/pump/VPC package, while an intercooler upgrade is in the
> > neighborhood of $2.5K. I'd like to see some HP results from an
> > intercooler/water injection system upgrade and see how they compare with
> the
> > traditional fuel system frenzy.
> snip
>
> You are assuming that the sole reason for more fuel is for cooling.  You are
> forgetting that rich and lean conditions are a result of improper air-fuel
> ratio.  As you increase the amount of air going into the engine (higher
> boost),
> you must also increase the amount of fuel so as to maintain the proper
> air-fuel
> ratio.  I think folks have reported injector duty cycles over 90% at about
> 15
> psi with stock turbos.  Thus psi over 17 will cause the injectors to be
> maxed
> out and unable to provide enough fuel which will result in a lean and
> dangerous
> condition.
>
> The reason for fuel system upgrades is to maintain proper air-fuel ratios
> above
> 15psi.  The reason for water injection is to push detonation from 16 psi to
> a
> higher (hopefully much higher) boost level.
>

- --
Hang up and drive!

Ken Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510
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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:01:58 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Adventures in braking

Went to the Trans-Am race at RoadAmerica last weekend, and got to check out
their brakes, up close and personal.

Their cooling ducts are HUGE!  Maybe 8-10 in. ducts that plug into a molded
piece built into the braking system. The calipers are mounted in the rear,
leaving the entire front area of the rotor open for connecting the air ducts.

They use water injection, too, but instead of injecting it into the ducts,
they shoot it directly into the cooling vanes on the edge of the rotor. Not
onto the pads or rotor surface as we originally thought, but into the vanes
themselves. The Miller Racing Camaro carries three gallons of water, and
injects water only when the brakes are applied. The driver can turn off the
system during yellow flag laps.

I asked if water injection warps the rotors. The engineer said they didn't
know, because they are lucky if the rotors last an entire race weekend.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4/Somebody stop me!


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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:27:11 -0400
From: Steve Sullivan <Sully@Carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Team3S: New Struts

Hey Ya'll

Well it's time to replace my struts and my motto is "If you have to
replace it .... might as well upgrade it! ".  Any one replace stock
struts on a VR-4 with the GABs, KYBs or any others??  If so who do you
like them..  or dislike then.  Who carries the GABs or others ??

Thanks in advance.

Sully

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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:31:30 -0400
From: Steve Sullivan <Sully@Carolina.rr.com>
Subject: Team3S: New Struts

Hey Ya'll

Well it's time to replace my struts and my motto is "If you have to
replace it .... might as well upgrade it! ".  Any one replace stock
struts on a VR-4 with the GABs, KYBs or any others??  If so, what do you

like about them..  or dislike about them.  Who carries the GABs or
others ??

Thanks in advance.

Sully

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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 06:35:33 -0500
From: xwing <xwing@execpc.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Intercooler/WIS vs. Injectors/VPC

Dave:

Here are some disagreements with your points, or how
I took them from what you wrote:  (probably not as much
disagreement as agreement overall though)

That water injection caused one person to report he had no
knock does NOT mean stock injectors and pump are fine to
19 + psi.

You make some other IMO not right-on statements, including the suggestion that
our target is a stoichiometric air-fuel ratio.  That is specifically
NOT our target!  That would guarantee melted pistons and
quick engine destruction.

Another:  that 'if air-fuel ratio were incorrect, the gentleman
WOULD have gotten knock.'  This is not necessarily so.
Our target a-f ratio is in the 11-12:1 range (some go as
low as 10.5 on turbos, PARTly for cooling/safety).  If the
ratio is 13.5, that is an INCORRECT ratio for our turbo cars
at high boost, yet it is much richer than stoichiometric (14.7:1).
13.5:1 is richer than stoich and may well NOT knock, yet is
too lean FOR US.  Lean TENDS toward knock and preignition (both), but
the blanket statement you made is not adequately supported by
the information available.  It ignores several confounding variables.

Another is that 'the detonation is due to the heat, not a lean condition.'
The detonation of a stock injector/pump engine at 18+ psi is due
to both heat, RELATIVE leanout, fuel quality, and what the ECU is doing
with ignition timing (the latter can get really weird, and is a main cause for
many wondering WHY the car feels fast one day, and doggy the next).

Another is that 'injector duty cycle of 100% is a better reason than
a-f ratio problems to upgrade to larger injectors'.
The BEST reason to upgrade injectors is an a-f ratio problem!  If you
have a lean condition due to inadequate injector size, you MUST
upgrade or you will eventually destroy parts!  If your duty cycle strays above
80% it is NICE to upgrade them to save them lifespan, but if they
are at 100% and a-f is ok, it is just a matter of being nicer to your
injectors, NOT the life of the engine as a whole.

   Our stock (only 360cc!) injectors are  inadequate for our cars at
high boost levels.  RC Engineering cites one of the common
formulas for injector sizing

(hp x BSFC) / (no.of Inj. x .80 duty cycle) = lbs/hr per Inj. x 10.50 = cc per injector
needed.
500hp x 0.50 / (6 x .8) = 52.1 lbs/hr x 10.5 =   547 cc   injectors needed for 500hp at
80% dutycycle, or 625hp at 100% dutycycle.

360cc stock inj are worth 65.4% of that, or 327hp @ 80%, and 409hp @ 100%.  (Mitsu
engineers are so smart!)   Let's say our BSFC is a bit better,
maybe .46 -- then, stockers give 444hp @ 100% dutycycle, pushing everything to the limit
in OUR favor, not necessarily the wisest way to proceed...RC indeed says turbo engines
will want to be at .60 or higher (!)

   CAN you push the stock injectors and pump to higher 18+ psi and live? YES!  BUT, for
how LONG?  The injectors are maxxed out dutycycle-wise.  The fuelpump is marginal (and
you NEED that rock-solid flow-at-pressure!).  For dragrace duty of 13 seconds or less,
right after which the engine gets to rest/cool pistons, it CAN last a long time.  BUT,
for longterm service, roadrace etc, the stock injectors are marginal to 18psi and I
don't recommend it much!

   My '94 went 2.3 mph faster going from stock 360cc injectors to 720cc injectors with
VPC/GCC to control it.  The VPC takes away any fuelcut, and allows richening mix further
than stockers will go.  Does this mean the mix was too LEAN before?  NO!  That
conclusion would not be adequately supported, as I don't have O2 sensor voltages,
dutycycles, EGT's, AND ignition advance information.  However, it is clear that going to
larger injectors did not much hurt me.  If so, I can stand to be hurt THAT way many more
times please!  ;)

   Note, there are many confounding variables here.  I can and have run 20+ psi with
stock injectors for short (dragrace) purposes, but with STOCK turbos which can't support
that 20psi except between 3000-4000 rpm...after that, they start falling off, so end up
around 9-10psi by 7000.  The injectors have more time to inject per firing event at
lower rpm, and hp is lower down there (less fuel needed) so stockers can indeed work to
20psi with stock 9B turbos...but I am much more comfortable with 550 injectors and a
fuelpump.   I think the engine is too.

   It sounds like the water injection idea is a good one, I am awaiting more specific
data from an additional observer (Roger and the actual dyno results--one without WI,
then directly after one WITH WI).  One of the Minnesota members (Curt J. I think it is
spelled with C) is in midst of testing as well.  This hopefully will allow us to
decrease knock events and resultant spark retard.  It improves one of the factors
needing improvement!

I put upgraded intercoolers on my '93 and the car LOST 1 mph.  Different days, but it
was a
consistent loss, I never saw such high mph with same setup again.  I made all my
fastest runs with stock IC's.  I think a well designed, more efficient IC system
CAN help our cars, but the Alamo IC's I had (and the HKS upgrade based on
others' observations) did NOT help quartermile mph, which is most directly related
to hp.   At this time, the commercially available IC upgrades are a big waste of
money in my experience, and readings of some who have done and TESTED it.
VPC/injectorsREMOVE fuelcut (to allow boost over 16psi), make for
a safer engine, andmake HP.  For those with money to spend one way or the
other, IC's are not the way IMO.  Maybe a different design than currently out
would be better than the non-helpful aftermarket ones out now.

This is a good discussion!  Whoa did I talk to long   [yes]
Jack Tertadian


Dave Allison wrote, then Ken Middaugh later down, snipped some!:

> Ken,
>    I agree that additional fuel in SOME cars is to maintain
> stochiometric air/fuel ratio as increase boost, but this is not
> case in our cars up to 19psi. The additional fuel up to 19psi,
> is beneficial only as a cooling agent. If this were not the case, the WIS
> poster would have experienced knock due to a lean condition while turning up
> the boost.
>         You state, "The reason for fuel system upgrades is to maintain
> proper air-fuel ratios above 15psi." I cannot agree. If the air/fuel ratio were
> incorrect he would have gotten detonation at 19psi.
> The detonation is due to intake charge heat, not air/fuel ratio.
> I'm not sure you understand the relationship between air/fuel ratio and
> detonation. A sign of lean is detonation. He increased
> boost without increasing fuel. According to your theory he should
> have experienced air/fuel ratio problems resulting in detonation. He didn't.
>         I agree with your statement about injector duty
> cycle on stock injectors. I hit 100% IDC at WOT 15psi.
> But most owners who boost 15psi do not upgrade
> injectors simultaneously. IDC readings are a better reason to suggest
> upgraded injectors than air/fuel ratio.
>         With facts before me I feel comfortable saying that the sole
> reason for more fuel IS for cooling... up to 19psi.
>    I may be wrong. It could be even higher boost than that! :)
> Dave
>
> From: Ken Middaugh [mailto:Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com]
> >  Why increase injector size, replace fuel
> > pump, purchase fuel computer, screw with fuel ratio,
> > potentially CAUSING lean while experimenting... when can
> > take care of root of problem by cooling  intake charge in
> > direct way water injection, intercooler upgrade.
> > boost increase is possible with IC upgrade AND water
> > injection system? You spend  $3K on on
> > injector/pump/VPC package, while intercooler upgrade is
> > $2.5K. I'd like to see some HP results from an
> > intercooler/water injection system upgrade and see how they compare with the
> > traditional fuel system frenzy.

> snip
> You assume sole reason for more fuel is cooling.  You
> forget that rich/lean conditions are result of improper air-fuel
> ratio.  As increase air going into the engine (higher boost),
> must also increase amount fuel to maintain proper air-fuel
> ratio.  folks have reported duty cycles over 90% at 15
> psi/stock turbos.  Thus psi over 17 will cause the injectors to be maxed
> out/unable to provide enough fuel, will result in lean dangerous condition.
> The reason for fuel system upgrade is to maintain proper air-fuel ratio above
> 15psi.  The reason for water injection is to push detonation from 16 psi to
> higher boost level.
> Ken Middaugh

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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:44:59 -0700
From: "Dave Allison" <dallison@siebel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Intercooler/WIS vs. Injectors/VPC

> Dave Allison wrote:
> >
> > Ken,
> >
> >         Please read the rest of my post.
> >
> >         I agree that the idea of additional fuel in SOME
> cars is to maintain
> > a stochiometric air/fuel ratio as you increase boost, but
> this is not the
> > case in our cars up to 19psi.
>
> In the ideal situation, the ONLY goal of a fuel system is to
> maintain proper
> air/fuel ratio (which I think may be a little richer than
> stochiometric).


I agree, under an ideal situation. But we're dealing with a less than ideal
situation.

> > The additional fuel, apparently up to 19psi,
> > is beneficial only as a cooling agent.
>
> Using fuel as a cooling agent is not an optimum practice, it
> is a band-aid.  In
> our cars, I doubt that there would be a rich condition at
> high RPM at 19 psi
> using the stock fuel system.  A properly sized system has to
> account for the
> worst case.  7000RPM at 19psi will require fuel system
> upgrades to ensure proper
> air/fuel ratio.

I still don't agree. The fact that he encountered no detonation is an
indicator that he was not running into a lean situation. 'Lean' by my
definition means an air/fuel mixture with so much oxygen in the mixture that
detonation occurs. If you're saying that he was running a lean situation in
regards to less than stochiometric, then I would say, 'perhaps'. But, why is
that a bad thing? A lean situation always causes more power than a rich
situation... although sometimes at the expense of pistons and rings. If
you're getting a 'lean' mixture and not getting any detonation,
CONGRATULATIONS, you've found the magic balance. This is why tuners increase
boost until they get detonation and then only slightly back off. This
results in the greatest power increase. Take a look at Roger Gerl's dyno
sheets. horsepower is always highest right before ignition retard (knock
condition). This is no coincidence.
 
> > If this were not the case, the WIS
> > poster would have experienced knock due to a lean condition
> while turning up
> > the boost.
> >
> >         You state, "The reason for fuel system upgrades is
> to maintain
> > proper air-fuel ratios above
> > 15psi." I cannot agree with this statement. If the air/fuel
> ratio were
> > incorrect he would have gotten detonation at 19psi in the
> WIS test results.
> > The detonation that occurs is due to intake charge heat,
> not air/fuel ratio.
>
> Yes, detonation is pre-ignition due to excessive temperature.
>  Lean conditions
> cause high temperatures, so I can see your linking detonation
> with lean
> conditions.  However with sufficient cooling, I speculate
> that you can have a
> lean condition without detonation.  Therefore I think it is
> an incorrect
> decuction that the WIS poster didn't see detonation because
> the stock fuel
> system was providing sufficient fuel at 19psi.  He may very
> well have been in a
> lean situation.

We seem to be having a problem with the words of 'lean' and 'detonation'. By
your definition (less than stochiometric = lean) I can agree with your
statement that "you can have a lean condition without detonation." If your
definition of lean =  loss of horsepower, or lean = detonation, then I must
disagree with you statement. The WIS poster DID NOT see detonation because
the stock fuel system was providing sufficient fuel at 19psi.

Let me restate this.

The WIS poster DID NOT see detonation because the stock fuel system was
providing sufficient fuel at 19psi.

If he's not detonating, he's ok. If he didn't have enough fuel, he'd be
detonating. It's quite simple.


> > I'm not sure you understand the relationship between
> air/fuel ratio and
> > detonation.
>
> Undoubtedly true since my last brush with chemistry & physics
> was almost 20
> years ago.  However I respectfully request that you change
> that to "completely
> understand" :).

Forgive me the phrasing of the above statement. It does not read well or
polite for that matter. My apologies.
 
> > A sign of a lean condition is indeed detonation. He increased
> > the boost without increasing the fuel. According to your
> theory he should
> > have experienced air/fuel ratio problems resulting in
> detonation. He didn't.
>
> See above speculation.

If one has a 'lean' condition, as you put it, how would one know? You state
that detonation is not an indicator. Also then please tell me why a 'lean'
condition, as you put it, is bad. I may be missing your point.

>
> >
> >         I most definitely agree with your statement about
> the injector duty
> > cycle on stock injectors. I myself hit 100% IDC when at WOT
> and 15psi. But
> > then, most owners who increase their boost to 15psi do not
> upgrade their
> > injectors simultaneously. IDC readings are a better reason
> to suggest
> > upgraded injectors than air/fuel ratio.
> >
> >         With the facts before me I feel comfortable saying
> that the sole
> > reason for more fuel IS for cooling... up to 19psi.
> >
> >         I may be wrong. It could be even higher boost than that! :)
>
> Do you mean 19psi with 9B turbos, or 19psi at 7000RPM?


19psi with 9b turbos. Air/fuel ratio may indeed be a problem with larger
turbos, since they hold boost, i.e. higher oxygen content, at higher RPM's.
But we're talking about with stock turbos. It may be a fortunate peculiarity
that the 9B's run out of breath as the RPM increases.

>
> If detonation is taken care of with cooling by water
> injection, would you feel
> comfortable running 19psi at redline on the stock fuel
> system? 

Yes. The only thing that makes me nervous about the above equation is the
IDC readings. But I figure, "Hell... if I'm gonna get +90% IDC readings at
15psi, I might as well add WIS and increase the boost to 19psi while still
avoiding a lean condition (detonation). If the injectors are gonna fail at
90% IDC at 15psi, they're going to fail just as fast at 90% IDC at 19psi!" I
won't argue that the injectors are maxing out in either situation. I'm
simply saying that if you're gonna make your injectors work overtime, you
might as well get an extra 4 psi worth of free horsepower for the same
amount of wear and tear.

> I believe that
> you would have a lean condition and therefore not be making
> optimum power.

Here we have another misunderstanding. Lean conditions ALWAYS result in more
horsepower. TOO LEAN results in detonation, which results in retarded
ignition timing, and therefore less horsepower. If you're leaning out your
air/fuel mixture and not getting detonation, you're making more horsepower.

> Therefore my reason for upgrading the fuel system for 19psi
> is to achieve
> maximum power, thus cooling is not the sole purpose of fuel upgrades.

I disagree. Many of your assumptions are simply incorrect. When does adding
more fuel give more power? I've never heard of this. More air AND fuel I can
understand will obviously give more power. More fuel? NO. MOre air? Yes.
Will fuel help lower the intake charge and allow you to increase boost
without detonation? Yes. But the fuel is simply doing the job that a WIS can
do better. It's a crude waste of fuel and gives no additional power in
itself.

>
> Thanks for a thought inspiring reply,
> Ken

Thanks for your reply.

Dave

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:22:09 -0700
From: David Chen <Neubine@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: New Struts

Hey Steve,

    I used to have some Custom Gab Shocks that i put coilover sleves on and used Cusco
Pillow Ball mount. They werer really really good but they like anything cutsom they had
thier bugs. As of now I've sold those sets and I'm planning to buy the TEIN coilover
set. They have a complete set of adjustable shocks and coilover setup for our cars.
Currently they don't sell them over here but a company called Deevo imports them. I plan
to buy the HA series which have adjustable shocks. With shipping and tax they go for
around $1800. they have a set with non-adjustable shock that go for $1600. In my mind
these are the best for the bucks. Seeing as gabs are $1000 for shocks only and they
aren't coilovers.

Check out www.deevo.com, you have to ask specificaly for this setup cause it's a special
order.

Check out www.tein.co.jp for pics and more info on the Tein setup.

Hope this helps

David Chen
Neubine@ix.netcom.com

Steve Sullivan wrote:

> Hey Ya'll
>
> Well it's time to replace my struts and my motto is "If you have to
> replace it .... might as well upgrade it! ".  Any one replace stock
> struts on a VR-4 with the GABs, KYBs or any others??  If so, what do you
>
> like about them..  or dislike about them.  Who carries the GABs or
> others ??
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Sully
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 17:24:09 -0700
From: David Chen <Neubine@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Team3S: Struts

Opps i forgot to mention that the price of 1800 includes pillow ball
mounts =)

David Chen
Neubine@ix.netcom.com

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:06:23 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Intercooler/WIS vs. Injectors/VPC

Hey Dave et all.

>The WIS poster DID NOT see detonation because the stock fuel system was
>providing sufficient fuel at 19psi.


This is an assumption of you but we do not have measured figures ! And I'm
pretty sure that over a longer period the system would run into hesitation
problems due to the weak fuel delivery.

>If he's not detonating, he's ok. If he didn't have enough fuel, he'd be
>detonating. It's quite simple.


No no, he did not detonating as the water cooled the combustion down so
much. John Basol maybe runned the 19 psi up to 5000rpm and there is enough
fuel for the air pushed in. But the situation changes pretty soon as rpm
increases !

A base statement is that we all know detonation occurs due to the heat in
the combustion chamber.
But what causes the heat going that high ?
- - hot intake air (caused by the ambient, degraded efficiency of the turbos,
small IC)
- - lean situation (not enough fuel)

>If one has a 'lean' condition, as you put it, how would one know? You state
>that detonation is not an indicator. Also then please tell me why a 'lean'
>condition, as you put it, is bad. I may be missing your point.

A/F ratio (O2 sensors) and exhaust temperature are the indicators. What if
you are reading temps of more than 1000°C in the exhaust without detonation
? Your pistons will start melting and this will cause knock as they start
"chattering" around in the cylinders. And there must not be any detonation
but the exhaust gases temp can be way over the limit due to this.
Interestingly retarding the timing causes such high temperatures but no
detonation then.

>19psi with 9b turbos. Air/fuel ratio may indeed be a problem with larger
>turbos, since they hold boost, i.e. higher oxygen content, at higher RPM's.
>But we're talking about with stock turbos. It may be a fortunate
peculiarity
>that the 9B's run out of breath as the RPM increases.


Jack pointed this out already as well as I added some figures to another
post from Chris regarding the flow.

>> If detonation is taken care of with cooling by water
>> injection, would you feel
>> comfortable running 19psi at redline on the stock fuel
>> system?
>Yes.

Ok, we know now that the 9B are not capable to deliver this boost up to the
redline and therefore we only speak in the lower rpm area. But his is more
torque than hp related then !

>The only thing that makes me nervous about the above equation is the
>IDC readings. But I figure, "Hell... if I'm gonna get +90% IDC readings at
>15psi, I might as well add WIS and increase the boost to 19psi while still
>avoiding a lean condition (detonation). If the injectors are gonna fail at
>90% IDC at 15psi, they're going to fail just as fast at 90% IDC at 19psi!"

Here's the problem. If you increase 4 psi of boost you change the amount of
air going into the engine. The more air but less fuel causes a degraded
relation and therefore a bad efficiency. The system then tries to add more
fuel by increasing the time the injectors are open, but they have been
already at 94% at 15psi ! Therefore the stock injectors have to work much
more to deliver the appropriate amount of fuel to be burnt.

Figure this : Let's say you run 17 psi of boost and you switch off injector
#3 and unplug spark #3. What happens (besides it runs on 5 cyl.) ? The
amount of fuel is decreased by 1/6 but boost can still remain at 17 psi as
the turbos deliver them ! But do we have a lean situation then ? No, because
the other 5 are still getting the proper amount of fuel and #3 is not
injecting nor ignitiing, the air is just going in and out. But the result is
a loss of 1/6 of power (it will be more) due to the fact no fuel is burnt in
#3. Of course you are running only on 5 cyl. and therefore the working
amount of air used for burning the fuel is also lowered by 1/6 while the
engine still sucks in the whole amount of air through the TB.

>> Therefore my reason for upgrading the fuel system for 19psi
>> is to achieve
>> maximum power, thus cooling is not the sole purpose of fuel upgrades.
>
>I disagree. Many of your assumptions are simply incorrect. When does adding
>more fuel give more power? I've never heard of this. More air AND fuel I
can
>understand will obviously give more power. More fuel? NO. MOre air? Yes.

David, one question : Where is the energy stored in ? Air or Fuel ?
How do we get the energy out : We burn the stuff ;-) To be able to burn it
we need oxygen or more simple air. The right mixture will give us the best
efficiency then. Therefore : the more fuel we burn the more energy and the
more fuel we have the more air we need (flow wise)

There is a simple formula to calculate the energy in hp at RCs site :
http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm
Pleae note fuel is the energy carrier and not air but air is needed to burn
the fuel. Therefore, adding more fuel gives the system more energy. This is
no assumption, this is fact. We can now discuss if the fuel is wasted to
cool the system but we don't as we have now water to take the heat away. As
we want to burn the added fuel we therefore also need more air to keep the
ratio in the proper area. And this is done by increasing boost, as this
increases the total air flow. If you only increase boost (not the amount of
fuel) there is just nothing that produces more power then. Even more you'll
be running too much on the leaner side and this results on a degraded
efficiency and more heat than power is generated.

>Will fuel help lower the intake charge and allow you to increase boost
>without detonation? Yes. But the fuel is simply doing the job that a WIS
can
>do better. It's a crude waste of fuel and gives no additional power in
>itself.

Sure, nobody speaks against this !

One thing nobody spoke about yet was fuel quality. Increasing the octane
number increases also the detonation point. So does this mean that this kind
of fuel lowers the combustion temp or creates a richer condition ???

Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 11:41:57 -0500
From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: WI - Pump

-----Original Message-----
From: R.G. [SMTP:robby@freesurf.ch]
Sent: Monday, July 12, 1999 3:04 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: WI - Pump

Ok, pump died but what water filter are you using or is delivered
with teh
pump ? You may change the thing as well ?

The filter I'm using came with the Spearco.  It is actually a
Motorcraft filter of some kind (made by Ford)

As far as I remember, the nozzle
is installed in the ellbow of the y-pipe, but where exactly
(under-side,
upper side, etc.) ERL told me to watch the postion of teh yet as it
should
not be un the lower half of the pipe due to oil deposits that may
appear
there. Of course I got the information AFTER I already isntalled the
front
jet :((( But it shouldn't be a problem as it is not in the ellbow
and
mounted in about 40° angle.

My jet (I only use one) is mounted right after the 90 degree bend in
the Y-pipe, just before the TB.  It is mounted slightly higher than half way
up.  I guess I got lucky with that.  I didn't really think about oil
deposits, or any other kind of deposits when I installed it, but towards the
top of the pipe was simply easier to get at for installation purposes.

> Water consumption has changed a bit now. I went through almost a
>whole tank of water in about 75 "spirited" miles.

How big is the tank ?

The tank is about ½ to ¾ of a gallon.

>tried the next size larger water jet and the car did not like it,
so I went
>back.

What were the symptons ?

(Keep ion mind I had done this with the old pump).  When I stepped
on the gas and boost built up the car was fine, but as soon as I let off the
foot feet the car would sputter out and die.  It seamed as if the water flow
couldn't be halted fast enough and some water was running out of the jet
just after I closed the throttle, thus killing the engine.  So I went back
to using the middle size jet and everything was fine again.  The jets they
include with the Spearco are .018", .025", and .033"

> My recommendation, anyone looking to use a Spearco, replace that
>stupid pump that comes with it with a big fuel pump.

Well, the price for the Spearco is that low that additional $50 is
not a big
deal :))

My thoughts exactly.  I still don't know about the corrosion factor
with this new pump though.  I hadn't thought about it.  I guess I'll have to
be the test case again.  :-)

-John

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