--
From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
(Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Team3S Digest V1 #229
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Errors-To:
owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Precedence:
bulk
Team3S
Digest Monday, July 12
1999 Volume 01 : Number
229
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 11 Jul 1999 16:41:09 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Boost Levels and Fuel Mods
First, get the Excel sheet I already
built under :
http://homepage.swissonline.net/3000gt/injectors_calc.zip
It
shows you the possible power (fuel wise) and the boost you can run on
with
the necessary pump and injectors.
>What boost levels can we work with
as we upgrade our fuel systems? For
example: if we upgrade our
>fuel
pump to, lets say, an in-tank HKS high-flow fuel pump, and we get
550cc
injectors (along with the
>hardware neccessary to control the new
injectors, like a vpc)... what kind
of boost levels could a
vr4
>reach?
If you do this mods you have to know that you are now
dumping fuel into the
chamber to control detonation. Theoretically the 9b are
able to deliver more
than 1.3 bars but there must be a lot fuel you'll waste
to cool the chamber
and probably loose more than 70hp due to this. Therefore,
increasing fuel
and boost may not result an a better result.
>Also,
would more efficient intercoolers (any suggestions?) combat our fuel
problem
by lowering
>cylinder temp?
You are not having a fuel problem
anymore if you have done the mods
described above ! But the better
intercooler helps to reduce the intake
temperature that finally reduces the
detonation level. This is a key factor
and you'll be able to run leaner and
therefore with less fuel just wasted to
cool the stuff down. This finally
results in a better efficiency of the
system and more power is the gain
:))
>One more question: I know that when we are lightly modified and
we start
off by raising our boost
>levels to 15lbs, we should regap our
plugs to .34.... would it be better to
upgrade the ignition system?
>I
know some people have mentioned that they have HKS twin power for
their
ignition system, does
>this work?
I do not know anybody
who has a HKS twin power in a 3S car. I know that
there are one or two cars
with an aftermarket ignition system but it's not
fully clear till now if this
helps anything. The butt dyno is not very
helpful in selfmade upgrades
:-((
I'm positive that upgrading the ignition may help to increase the
ignition
quality but then I'd also say to replace the coil pack. BTW, I'm
running
0.034" without any sideeffects so why should I upgrade the ignition
?
Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 11 Jul 1999 17:15:32 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: 1994 3000gt SL: fried wires: battery just click-clicks
Bob, I
would say that somebody who already openen the hood more often should
have a
look into the bay. If it is possible have the car towed to the
> I
checked the voltage withthe car off and got about 12.12 volts
This tells
nothing as the battery must be under load to check the voltage.
But it seems
to be drained already due to the short in the system.
>Do you think
this is something I can fix myself when the gold-plated
(expensive!) manual
arrives or will I ever be
>able to tell myself WHY it happened so it
doesn't happen again?
I'd have the the garage or mechanic look at where
you bought it ! They
should fix the problem so you don't have to care how it
happend.
>I'm thinking of getting that TMO Datalogger myself, how else
do you read
the codes on these cards ?
A datalogger just for getting
the codes ? Naah, just read the manual and
you'll see how to get out the
codes. But if you have a short the ECU will
turn on/off and may not deliver
you a proper code if any.
> I have not found a website yet that has
the codes or a picture so
>I can tell what this thing is.
Ok, then
take a picture and post it on your own webpage. The codes are in
the
manual.
> What do you all think about putting some diagrams/codes out
on the website
>and in maybe adding some type of search tools to search
headings of the
>archive files?
Get the Backup-CD from Vineet ...
and good luck in finding waht are you
searchign
for.
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 11 Jul 1999 12:56:40 EDT
From: Aso8@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Part wanted -
HKS BOV
Anyone selling a HKS Super Seq. BOV ?
Mine is working
fine. I just need to run 2 of them :)
Please, Email me direct
Tks.
Arty
91 VR-4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:06:43 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Team3S:
turbo comparisons
Turbo question --- has anyone done a comparison of the
turbochargers for the
3/S cars. I know for example that we have the 9B, 13G,
15G and 20 something,
plus I have seen reference to several other numbers.
Some questions include,
spoolup time, sustained boost, peak boost and
cost.
What is the peak boost [ momentary or sustained ] that the engine can
hold,
assuming you can control detonation. Is 30 or 35 pounds possible [
assume
forged pistons ]???? If not what is a practical
limit.
Jim Berry 93
TT
My car is safe covered up in my
garage,
but thats not what my car is for.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:41:34 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
turbo comparisons
<snip>
> What is the peak boost [
momentary or sustained ] that the engine
> can hold,
> assuming you
can control detonation. Is 30 or 35 pounds possible [ assume
> forged
pistons ]???? If not what is a practical limit.
That totally
depends upon how long you want the engine to last. For
example, and
these numbers are totally arbitrary and not necessarily based
in reality (and
assume no detonation), the engine may last for a long time
at 20-25 psi doing
short blasts down the 1320' periodically. Yet, it may
genade after the
third or fourth run at 35 psi.
There are diminishing returns to power
output. The more power the harder it
is on parts, even good
parts. At absolute maximum power output you'll be
rebuilding the engine
after nearly every use. Somewhere below that extreme
point is practical
and what is practical will depend as much on one's
pocketbook as anything
else.
Assuming no detonation and a properly assembled engine with
excellent parts,
regular bursts of 25 psi or so *should* be fine I would
think (I hope).
I personally do not trust cast pistons to withstand much
abuse whereas a
good forged piston will give you some leeway. They will
still disintegrate
under excessive detonation.
I used to race Pro 250
GP. At club level races I could run the bike nearly
a full season on
the same pistons and crank -- I would usually run it at
less than optimal
output just to save wear and tear. Yet against national
riders where
the competition is much much stiffer, the engine needed a
complete overhaul
after every day's worth of racing. The only difference
was the state of
tune (jetting). It'd be wickedly fast when the jetting was
tweaked on
the ragged edge of lean, but the cost was rings, pistons, pins,
small end
bearings and sometimes crank bearings after just one weekend.
The
payback was being able to keep
up.
Barry
> Jim Berry 93
TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 11 Jul 1999 14:45:04 -0400
From: "Michael" <mdorsey@mindspring.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: turbo comparisons
I'd also be interested in how long the
different turbo's can hold 15 psi.
For example, could a 13G hold it through
redline? What about 18psi, looks
like it's safely attainable with just
water injection?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of Jim Berry
> Sent: Sunday, July 11, 1999 14:07
> To: team
3si
> Subject: Team3S: turbo comparisons
>
>
> Turbo
question --- has anyone done a comparison of the
> turbochargers for
the
> 3/S cars. I know for example that we have the 9B, 13G, 15G
>
and 20 something,
> plus I have seen reference to several other numbers.
Some
> questions include,
> spoolup time, sustained boost,
peak boost and cost.
> What is the peak boost [ momentary or sustained ]
that the
> engine can hold,
> assuming you can control detonation.
Is 30 or 35 pounds
> possible [ assume
> forged pistons ]????
If not what is a practical limit.
>
> Jim
Berry 93
TT
>
My car is safe covered up in my
garage,
>
but thats not what my car is for.
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 11 Jul 1999 13:16:11 -0600
From: "Palamara, Peter" <pala@gwl.com>
Subject: Team3S: Custom IHI
turbos for sale (lowered price!!!)
Well I may have asked too much for the
turbos since I got no response. So I
must sell these off so I'm asking $800
firm. I spent over $1400 for the pair
new.
92 3000 GTO MMC
500
H.P. of broken fun again :(
Plates (HIPRESR)
(303) 689-4733
-
-----Original Message-----
From: Palamara, Peter
Sent: Tuesday, July 06,
1999 5:50 PM
To: stealth@starnet.net; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Custom IHI turbos for sale
Well all I'm getting rid of the ihi turbos
to go bigger and badder for my
new setup. These will be available off the car
on July 19th. The turbos are
td04 with ihi compressors. The turbos have about
5,000 miles no oil no
nothing just barely broken in on my books. The car has
always had Mobil
synthetic in it. Now these are in between turbos of the 13g
and the 15g.
They have a spool up of about 3800 rpm and my car did a best of
12.76 1/4 up
here at 6800ft at bandimere's (could of been better with a not
so rich
situation plus better driver too :)!). They produce about 15.5 psi at
the
upper rpms (6,000 rpm) and max at 1.3 bar. TEC built the turbos and they
are
made after the Infamous Hennesse cars that were produced. I'm asking
$1000
for the pair but will consider serious offers.
92 3000 GTO
MMC
500 H.P. of broken fun again :(
Plates (HIPRESR)
(303)
689-4733
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 11 Jul 1999 17:57:20 -0500
From: "Todd Schmalzried" <Q11981@email.mot.com>
Subject:
Team3S: pin-outs / help
Hello All,
I was working on my active aero
this weekend, and need some help. First, I
know I need to buy the book.
OK, here's the situation. I bought my '94 a couple months ago. The
front
spoiler is gone (torn off), and the rear spoiler was stuck in the
up
position. I tore the switch apart, and it appears to work correctly.
The
little lights change, and I get continuity between different pins. I
tore
the rear wing apart. The motor runs, and both position switches work. I
need
to put it back together now, and don't know which switch is up, and
which is
down. THere are 7 wires, and they have different colors depending on
which
side of the plug you are on.
Rear Spoiler:
spoiler side car
side function
Black tail light
Green tail light
White Red / Yellow
motor
Black / White Red / Blue motor
Black / Blue black common
switch
Red Yellow / Blue ? switch
Yellow Brown / Red ? switch
I
need to know which lead is up/down, and what the switch position is
supposed
to be (open/closed).
Front Spoiler
spoiler side car side
function
Black Green / Red motor
Red Black / Blue motor
Green / Red Red
/ Blue ? switch
Green / Black Red / Blue ? switch
Blue / Green Blue /
Green ? switch
The motor doesn't run anymore. It got hit hard, and water got
in to rust it
up. I would still like to know which switch is which so I can
wire up a
dummy until I get a complete new spoiler (if I get one). That way
the rear
will work, and I can make the ecu (or what ever controls it) happy.
- --
Todd
Schmalzried
q11981@email.mot.com
- -You "put
your 2 cents in" but only get "a penny for your thoughts"
- -Who gets the
change? Think about it. O-
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 11 Jul 1999 18:00:11 -0500
From: "Todd Schmalzried" <Q11981@email.mot.com>
Subject:
Team3S: front spoiler
Hello all,
A while back someone was trying
to get rid of a complete front spoiler in
here. Does anyone know who it was,
of if your listening could you respond?
After tearing mine apart, it turns
out I need the mechanics as well as the
lip.
Thanks
-
--
Todd
Schmalzried
q11981@email.mot.com
- -You "put
your 2 cents in" but only get "a penny for your thoughts"
- -Who gets the
change? Think about it. O-
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Mon, 12 Jul 1999 00:29:16 EDT
From: TurboDrvn@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Custom IHI turbos for sale (lowered price!!!)
In a message dated 7/11/99
2:21:11 PM Central Daylight Time, pala@gwl.com
writes:
<< Well I may have asked too much for the turbos since
I got no response. So I
must sell these off so I'm asking $800 firm. I
spent over $1400 for the pair
new.
92 3000 GTO
MMC
500 H.P. of broken fun again :(
Plates
(HIPRESR)
(303) 689-4733 >>
Hi there,
I have a
couple of questions re: your turbos for sale:
What are they technically
classiefied as?(you said between 13G and 15G); and
are they technically TEC
turbos? or are they factory/stock turbos converted
over?
Do
they come with any transferable warranties?
Also are these turbos
direct bolt ons? Or will I need to get any other parts
to properly
install these turbos (or will you include all hardware needed)?
Up to
how much Horsepower are these turbos good til?
Thanks in
advance
Later,
Ahmed "AL-Crazy" - '92 VR4 (very seriously
shopping around for Turbos and
intercoolers!)
GReddy Profec B boost
controller, GReddy turbo timer, Apex'i sequential
b.o.v., SPI motorsport
boost gauge & pillar pod, K&N filtercharger, Alamo
Downpipe, Hi-flow
cat, Borla exhaust, Magnecore 8.5mm wires & new NGK spark
plugs gapped
at .032, KVR Cross drilled rotors with carbon fiber pads, Nitto
Power
Extreme NT-555 (255/40/17's) tires, Enkei RP-O1 17x9 (42mm offset)
racing
wheels & Eibach Pro-Kit Springs (not installed yet)
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Mon, 12 Jul 1999 02:02:14 EDT
From: Czarcd@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Ticking
Sound!!
Members,
Lately, the ticking in my motor has been
getting louder and I think
my gas mileage has gone south. I am due for
a tune up. My car has 66K
miles. I am about to change the plugs
and wires. I was wondering if some of
either one(plugs or wires) was
bad would it make a ticking sound? I.E. if it
was missing.
Another
question is, I have heard the "Lash Adjuster" and the "Knock
Sensor"
mentioned in previous posts. What are these and what do they do?
Could this be my possible problem?
Thanx all in
advance.
Carlo,
Black
91 Stealth RT Twin Turbo
3SI #
317
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:45:20 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: turbo comparisons
> Turbo question --- has anyone done a
comparison of the turbochargers for the
> 3/S cars. I know for example
that we have the 9B, 13G, 15G and 20 something,
> plus I have seen
reference to several other numbers. Some questions include,
> spoolup
time, sustained boost, peak boost and cost.
The only comparison I
currently have is from the dyno session together with the
two Stealths (9B
stock, mine 13G stock euro)
The main difference was the different and
higher tourque. Also the discharge
temperature was noticeable lower on my
3000GT than on the Stealths. These are
the main differences between the 9B
and 13G as I also notice a bosot decrease
after 5700 rpm. Tuning the Blitz
DSBC a little bit better may compensate this a
little. I hope to be able to
do some data recordings together with boost
recording and join the data
together.
> What is the peak boost [ momentary or sustained ] that the
engine can hold,
> assuming you can control detonation. Is 30 or 35 pounds
possible [ assume
> forged pistons ]???? If not what is a practical
limit.
Peak of the 9B seems to be close to 1.3bars while the 13G seems to
go over
1.4bars. The rings will be the first that will go and I just wish I
had JE
forged pistons and Total-Seal rings available during my rebuild
(%ç&E*%*ç) It
will not be a good feeling of running 1.3bars sustained
boost with the stock
parts in the chamber. On the Autobahn, the boost was
steady at 1.25bars when I
reached 174mph ... detonation started to become
hearable then (gulp) We do not
have written facts on this issue but I'd feel
much better with the piston/ring
upgrade. This would allow you to run over
1.4bars with proper detonation
control.
Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT
TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:52:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: ie886@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John
T. Christian)
Subject: Team3S: Re: Porsche Upgrade calipers?
Hi
all,
Subject: Team3S: Porsche Upgrade calipers?
In a nutshell, get
Brad's kit.
I did the Stealth/Porsche conversion myself. With
Brad's help I ordered the parts from Porsche, the lines from Goodrich, and
machined the transition pieces at Machine Improvement Co.
I enjoyed doing it
myself. I started in APRIL and just finished in JUNE. But didi I
save $$$$ vs Brad -- NO. But did I save time vs Brad -- NO.
My
fraternity Bro has a real machine shop, Machine Improvement Co. He & I
worked together on the transition pieces, got necessary special thread metric
taps & bolts, spacers etc. And he didn't charge me for $$$milling
machine time or $$$$labor or $materials.
Spare yourself a lot of headaches
and get the kit from Brad. Then if you want a small challenge, install the
kit yourself. If you can change a rotor, you can install the kit and
should take no more than half a day.
I won't know til after July 24 at
Nelson Ledges how the Porsche systemn works on the Track. I know it will
be better than the stock '94 system which only lasts about 50 track miles.
On
the street its FANTASTIC. Now I know what threshold braking
IS. I've never experienced Stealth ABS on dry pavement---only on snow
& ice. With the Porsche system, the Stealth puts down little black
patches of tire from 80 MPH.
Can't wait to try braking at Nelson
Ledges.
Thanks Brad.
Be of good cheer
John
-
--
JCZoooM '93 Stealth TT Blue
almost stock 12.46 @109 MPH
e-mail: ie886@po.cwru.edu www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:08:11 EDT
From: "Rice-Burner Crusher" <stealth_es@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Selling price.
After thinking it over, I think I might be selling
my car.. I am going to be
leaving for school in the fall to attend
Appalachian State in North
Carolina. With the mountains and snow and
all in the winter, I figure my
Stealth won't be very reliable.. The
only problem with selling my car is
that I like the speed factor.. Any
suggestions? Should I sell and get a
4x4, or keep it and deal with the
fact I'll have to bum a ride when it
snows. Also, if I do decide to
sell, what should I ask for?
It's a 1993 Stealth ES. 91K
miles. Color: Silver
Interior: Charcoal Gray w/ leather seats.
Automatic transmission.
AM/FM/Cassette w/ 6 speakers (Two in doors,
two behind seats, and two in
dash). Hook-ups for CD changer. PW,
PL, Security, Remote entry.
I recently saw a 1995 3000gt SL, which I'm
pretty sure is the same as my
car, for sale for $17,995 at a local
dealer. Everything was about the same,
so I figure I could get around
$12k for my car..
Please, any help would be appreciated, but send replies
just to me and not
the list.
Thanks very
much!
_______________________________________________________________
Get
Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:08:26 -0500
From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: Team3S:
WI - Pump
Hi everyone,
Well I have another good reason for people who
are looking at
installing a water injection system to go with the Aquamist
system. This
past weekend I was heading back from a local 3/S gathering
at a drive-in and
when I got on the gas the knock indicator started lighting
up. Hmmm....I
thought, what the heck is going on here. I tried it
again, when the needle
swung past 16psi on the boost gauge the knock
indicator started flickering,
then all the sudden...fuel cut. Wow fuel
cut sure is an effective method of
slowing the car down! :-)
So
yesterday I started to track down the problem. My first thought
was
that the water nozzle was clogged again, but when I tried to manually
turn
the pump on to check the nozzle, the pump wouldn't even turn on!
So
looking at the pump it looks like a washer pump, so down to the local
Big
Wheel I went. Looking at the Trico brand washer pumps I made a
startling
revelation...."Hey that looks exactly like my pump!"
Well, not wanting
this to happen again, I decided I would replace it with
something a little
better...an electric fuel pump. I walked up to the
counter and told them I
needed an external electric fuel pump that could flow
at least 25 gph. He
gave me the biggest thing they had in an external,
and it was rated at 36
gph, all for a very reasonable $36.99. Happy I
was. So I bought that and
put that in yesterday afternoon, and topped
off my water tank.
Water consumption has changed a bit now. I went
through almost a
whole tank of water in about 75 "spirited" miles.
Funny thing is, the car
did not show one sign of dying out because of too
much water. I had once
tried the next size larger water jet and the car
did not like it, so I went
back. Now it is using a lot more water than
it did even with the larger
jet, and it doesn't phase it a bit. My only
thought was that the little
pump and the large jet could not get the water to
mist very well, and it was
causing the water to puddle and run in rather than
have the air saturated
with a mist.
My recommendation, anyone looking to
use a Spearco, replace that
stupid pump that comes with it with a big fuel
pump.
- -John Basol
'95 RT/TT (Water Injected again)
:-)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:53:10 -0700
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Boost Levels and Fuel Mods
FWIW...
When working with
the good folks (Holly & Jason) at TEC over the last couple
months (while
getting my 15Gs rebuilt), I got the following flow numbers
from
them:
9B = 265 cfm
13G = 360 cfm
15G = 460 cfm
Now, clearly
(IMO), the more air you flow, the higher the boost you can
produce and the
longer you can sustain it. HOWEVER, that is dependent on a
number of other
factors, primarily the fuel system. As Roger has pointed out
on many
occasions, it's not safe to run higher boost (even after upgrading
the
turbos) if you haven't upgraded the fuel system.
My
question...Roger...why do you say a person would lose 70 hp by adding
larger
injectors and fuel pump?
Looking forward...Chris
- -----Original
Message-----
From: R.G. [mailto:robby@freesurf.ch]
Sent: Sunday,
July 11, 1999 7:41 AM
To: Carlos Q; Team3s list
Subject: Re: Team3S: Boost
Levels and Fuel Mods
<snip>
>What boost levels can we work
with as we upgrade our fuel systems? For
example: if we upgrade
our
>fuel pump to, lets say, an in-tank HKS high-flow fuel pump, and we
get
550cc injectors (along with the
>hardware neccessary to control the
new injectors, like a vpc)... what kind
of boost levels could a
vr4
>reach?
If you do this mods you have to know that you are now
dumping fuel into the
chamber to control detonation. Theoretically the 9b are
able to deliver more
than 1.3 bars but there must be a lot fuel you'll waste
to cool the chamber
and probably loose more than 70hp due to this. Therefore,
increasing fuel
and boost may not result an a better result.
<more
snip>
Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT
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------------------------------
Date:
Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:02:59 -0700
From: "Murat Okcuoglu" <murat@ashacorp.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: J.D. Power vs. Mitsu Survey (Getrag Tranny Probs)
"Factory
Modified Police Versions ECUs "
This seems very intersting!! can you
get/post more info??
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End
of Team3S Digest V1 #229
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