--

From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com (Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S Digest V1 #214
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Errors-To: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Precedence: bulk


Team3S Digest         Thursday, June 24 1999         Volume 01 : Number 214




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:12:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
Subject: Team3S: Tires again

Well, my "intentions" to replace my tires have turned into a "necessity".
I picked up a HUGE nail on my way into work, and now one of my tires is
nearly as flat as the tread on them.  :(

Rather than rehash the entire "What do you recommend for the 16-inch
wheels?", is there anyplace where the comments, critiques, and
recommendations of this list and starnet have been compiled into a useful
document?  I've checked 3si.org and 3000gt.com, but haven't found what I'm
looking for. 

(FWIW, I'm leaning towards the "upsized" Firehawks one of you mentioned a
few weeks ago.)

Thanks!

Dennis Moore
stealth@kiva.net

How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost?

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:31:45 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Tires again

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dennis Moore [mailto:stealth@kiva.net]

> I picked up a HUGE nail on my way into work,

sorry to hear about the tire...but now you have a good excuse to get those
new tires:)

> Rather than rehash the entire "What do you recommend for the 16-inch
> wheels?", is there anyplace where the comments, critiques, and
> recommendations of this list and starnet have been compiled
> into a useful document?

Haven't seen a document, but I'll summarize what I found.

Performance:
Michelin Pilot SX MXX-3
Firestone Firehawk SZ50

Inexpensive:
Nitto 555 Extreme
Sumitomo HTR4

All-round:
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4

Snow:
Michelin Pilot XGT Z4

From Andrew Brilliant:
Pirelli PZERO's 14,500 Miles to replacement
    Best transfer torque to ground of all excellent drag
launch tire Good predictability  When it rains you are
done for, due to its asymetrical tread design I think
BTW there is a directionalle version availuble but it
supposedly doesn't handle as good

Goodyear Eagle GS-C  13,000 Miles to replacement

Mediocre in every sense of the word, but inexpensive,
nothing impressive here excellent pridictable and good ride

BF G COMP TA-ZR 10,000 Miles to replacement

A hell of a tire for the money, wears quickly though treadwear of
  180 I used it up in 10,000 Miles

Michelling Pilot SX MXX-3 8,000 Miles to replacement

This tire gave almost no warninig when it was about to loose
traction, I had to crack the windows to hear it at all. They
wold hold perfect till they didn't hold at all.
AND HOLD THEY did.  These tires are by far the best traction,
of all, and cornering capability was extremely impressive
Big Cons is the PRICE $$$$ 240 a piece, and they lasted
8,000 Miles.  Be prepared for some amazing performance, and be
prepared to pay for it.

Goodyear Eagle F1 GS 29,000 Miles

This is the tire I reccommend to everyone, it's 300 treadwear
rating is similar to alot of H rated tires, it can hold its own
against the MXX-3's (good race MXX-3 would win though)  But it'll
last you twice as long not to mention a 245/45 17 is on sale at
tire rack for $180!!!!  Don't get the GS-Steel though, it is a
harder compound, it is more precise due to the stiffer sidewalls,
and wears a little longer.  If you like that or the runflat thing
get the steel, its just alot more expensive. like $208 at tirerack.



> (FWIW, I'm leaning towards the "upsized" Firehawks one of you
> mentioned a few weeks ago.)

That would be me:)  245/50/ZR16s and I still love em...

- --Erik
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:06:03 -0400
From: Michael Booker <mrbook@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: NT Engine mods... (looong and maybe also for TTs)

I asked a question about the TT's camshaft duration, and it's been
stated that the TT's exhaust cam has 4degrees more duration. Would this
work in an NA with the 10:1 compression, or will the exhaust valve bo
open too long and cause valve to smash the piston Will it help? Can the
exhaust cams be installed in the intake cam position? 

Matt
#311
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 15:21:02 -0700
From: "Murat Okcuoglu" <murat@ashacorp.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: NT Engine mods... (looong and maybe also for TTs)

IMHO and being a guy who built many, many race cars:

just sell your NA and buy a TT.

secondhand prices of these cars are almost the same.

that will save you a lot of headache, your marriage and your bank account,
both in the short term and in the long term.

I know one gets attached to own car and develops emotional ties. get over
it.

if you still get the itch, you can do simple mods to your TT.

almost all turbo cars respond very generously to mods. very good HP/$, good
bang for the buck in other words.

Technically, anything is possible for the NA. Is it worth it? that is your
decision to make. You can get custom grind cams and with decent headers, you
can rev 9000 easy, developing 300+ HP. But remember, each part may require
several trial and errors, costing you grief, time and money, lots of it.

good luck.

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:35:30 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Synchros needed

>
> Jim,
>
> What is your background regarding manual transaxels?  The reason I ask is,
>  taking one of these trannys apart something that your typical "shadetree
> mechanic" should attempt?  I feel that I'm a competent mechanic(I've done
> the 60K and replaced my own clutch on my car)
> Did you need any special tools to disassemble the transmission. 
==========================================================
A marginally gifted but patient person can do all necessary work -- a digital camera
would be nice. I've done a trans before so I know the major components.
 special tools --- I did need an impact wrench for the back bolt and a spring clip remover.
 Plus some stuff needs pulling so I farmed out the press work. I started from the
back --- wrong move!!!
=============================================================
> This is what I envision if I were able to get a synchro assembly.
>
> -Disassemble the transmission(I understand that the trick here is to remove
> the black plug and remove the bolts behind the plug).
> -Inspect the gears and look for any damage. 
> -Clean everything
> -Replace the 1-2 and 3-4 synchros...Any tricks here??
> -Assemble the transmission...Any tricks here??
=============================================================
Start from the front [ Bell housing end ] --- the only spring loaded parts are the
detent springs for the shift  forks and the shifter mechanism. Loosen the detent cover
bolts [ rear of the trans, two 10mm hex head ] then pry up cover so as not to launch the
springs. Remove bolts, remove springs, remove ball bearing. The shift mechanism needs to
be wiggled out and there is a spring forcing it upward, mine fell out and it drops to the
bottom of the trans [ inside of course --- which ain't bad if you're removing everything ].
After removing the front cover you need to remove the front output shaft [ It's a concentric
shaft that fits into the output shaft of the viscous coupling ---it just lifts out ]. Next remove
the center differential, it too just lifts out [ it's heavy ].
Next you can remove the center trans housing, easier said than done. you need to pry, lift,
tilt, swear, pray and use your special book of German incantations , but it does lift off.
You are now left with the input shaft, intermediate shaft, shift forks and viscous coupling all
stuck in the end cap. The viscous coupling will come out at this point [ remember, I did this
 the other way around]. Now comes the 'bolt' -- it's a 7mm allen head and mine was TIGHT!!
I used a Snap-on star wrench and a 1/2" impact. After removing the 'bolt' I find the shaft is
still pressed in [ curses and swear words ]. I was able to remove the shaft by setting it on the
proper size socket then tapping on the rear cover until it popped out. At this point you have
what is known as a Getrag transmission kit.
Without specs I could only look for abnormal wear and since I have a set of the precious
synchros I know what they should look like new.
To get at the 1-2 synchros on the intermediate shaft you need to remove a keeper ring,
 press off a taper bearing cage and race, remove 1st gear and it's needle bearing then
press off the 2nd gear which will remove the1st gear needle bearing race and the synchro
assembly. Whew !!
There are spring loaded detent balls [ three ] in the synchro so watch it.
3-4 is a little tougher -- I left it alone after an aborted attempt. After removing a keeper ring
the fixed first gear needs to be pressed off. I chickened out at 6 tons and no movement.
I found out later that it might require 10 tons and the application of heat to the gear. You
need a competent trans guy to do that work.
Be patient and keep track of parts!!!!!!!!!! Bag and label stuff ---- take pictures!!!!!!
==============================================================

> You said that you took it apart to inspect it before installing.  What are
> you using to determine whether or not something is within spec.  Are you
> just visually inspecting the components for wear/damage
==============================================================
I was only able to look for abnormal wear plus I believed the trans to be good. You can get
seals and bearings from GTR motorsports. Changing bearings changes internal specs.
============================================================
> What are you going to use for torque specs??  I was going to use the section
> of the service manual that covers the manual transmission for the FWD
> versions of our cars as a guide??  Are they similar enough to do this?
============================================================
The only torque's are the bolts holding the case together --- use the FWD spec.
=========================================================
> Are you taking pictures as you do this?  If you have pictures, I would
> appreciate it if you would send them to me.
=========================================================
I hope to but I haven't done so yet. I can get you some digital pics if you have special
requests.

This was an overview only --- What I wrote in ten words might require 1/2 hour of
thought to accomplish.


   Jim Berry


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:48:00 -0400
From: "Meyer" <meyer2@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RPS Carbon clutch!!

Brad and others,
We have had no problems whatsoever with our turbo clutch carbon 5000rpm
launches and 500+hp held no problem and Jack T. posted a similar report so I
believe the problem is specific to your clutch. Check with Rob Smith at RPS;
they do warranty their product.
Frank
www.AcceleratedAccessories.com
- -----Original Message-----
From: Brad Bedell <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
To: R.G. <robby@freesurf.ch>; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 8:36 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: RPS Carbon clutch!!


>
>Flywheel is new.  I replaced it to eliminate the possibility of the machine
>work being done wrong.
>
>As I posted, I have about 1500 miles on the clutch before I did any
>aggressive driving.
>
>The stock clutch that I took out held 5500 RPM launches with no problems.
I
>may try the stock pressure plate with the Carbon disk, depending on the
>condition on the disk when I pull it out.
>
>The biggest problem is the labor involved in replacing the clutch.  If it
>were only a 2.5 hour job I wouldn't' worry about it.  The job takes at
least
>5+ hours to do it right.
>
>I have sent Rob Smith an E-mail to see what he has to say. I'll post
further
>when he gives me a response.
>
>*shrug*
>Brad
>Check out my home page:   http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
>> E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com ICQ#  3612682
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com] On Behalf Of R.G.
>Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 2:35 AM
>To: bbedell@austin.rr.com; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>Subject: Re: Team3S: RPS Carbon clutch!!
>
>rad, sorry to hear your bad experience on the clutch side :((
>
>
>What about braking in ? How many miles have you done without going hard at
>it ?
>
>
>Brad, did you turned the flywheel before you installed the RPS ?
>
>>Seems Mitsubishi actually did something right with the clutches.
>
>Oh yeah ? I had 3 clutches within 36k km, two master cylinders, new pedal,
>brocken lever in clutch assembly,
>etc. And current stock clutch still slips when I want to launch at 5500 !!
>
>I have heard from two people that installed it and both are happy so far.
Of
>course, they are still braking it in.
>
>All RPS GP participants : I was told the flywheel MUST be turned to prepare
>the surface for the carbon. Doing
>this and doing a good brake-in the clutch should be great !
>
>Good luck with the stock clutch,
>Roger
>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:04:36 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Tires again

There's a great comparison on the TireRack site between...:

BFGoodrich g-Force KD
vs
Michelin Pilot SX MXX3
vs
Pirelli PZero Asimmetrico

at http://www.tirerack.com/tires/frames/tiretest_results_f.html

Y-rated tires!  (186mph)  Whew!

Forrest


- -----Original Message-----From: Gross, Erik <erik.gross@intel.com>


|> -----Original Message-----
|> From: Dennis Moore [mailto:stealth@kiva.net]
|
|> I picked up a HUGE nail on my way into work,
|
|sorry to hear about the tire...but now you have a good excuse to get
those
|new tires:)
|
|> Rather than rehash the entire "What do you recommend for the
16-inch
|> wheels?", is there anyplace where the comments, critiques, and
|> recommendations of this list and starnet have been compiled
|> into a useful document?
|
|Haven't seen a document, but I'll summarize what I found.
|
|Performance:
|Michelin Pilot SX MXX-3
|Firestone Firehawk SZ50
|
|Inexpensive:
|Nitto 555 Extreme
|Sumitomo HTR4
|
|All-round:
|Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4
|
|Snow:
|Michelin Pilot XGT Z4
|
|From Andrew Brilliant:
| Pirelli PZERO's 14,500 Miles to replacement
|     Best transfer torque to ground of all excellent drag
| launch tire Good predictability  When it rains you are
| done for, due to its asymetrical tread design I think
| BTW there is a directionalle version availuble but it
| supposedly doesn't handle as good
|
| Goodyear Eagle GS-C  13,000 Miles to replacement
|
| Mediocre in every sense of the word, but inexpensive,
| nothing impressive here excellent pridictable and good ride
|
| BF G COMP TA-ZR 10,000 Miles to replacement
|
| A hell of a tire for the money, wears quickly though treadwear of
| 180 I used it up in 10,000 Miles
|
| Michelling Pilot SX MXX-3 8,000 Miles to replacement
|
| This tire gave almost no warninig when it was about to loose
| traction, I had to crack the windows to hear it at all. They
| wold hold perfect till they didn't hold at all.
| AND HOLD THEY did.  These tires are by far the best traction,
| of all, and cornering capability was extremely impressive
| Big Cons is the PRICE $$$$ 240 a piece, and they lasted
| 8,000 Miles.  Be prepared for some amazing performance, and be
| prepared to pay for it.
|
| Goodyear Eagle F1 GS 29,000 Miles
|
| This is the tire I reccommend to everyone, it's 300 treadwear
| rating is similar to alot of H rated tires, it can hold its own
| against the MXX-3's (good race MXX-3 would win though)  But it'll
| last you twice as long not to mention a 245/45 17 is on sale at
| tire rack for $180!!!!  Don't get the GS-Steel though, it is a
| harder compound, it is more precise due to the stiffer sidewalls,
| and wears a little longer.  If you like that or the runflat thing
| get the steel, its just alot more expensive. like $208 at tirerack.
|
|
|
|> (FWIW, I'm leaning towards the "upsized" Firehawks one of you
|> mentioned a few weeks ago.)
|
|That would be me:)  245/50/ZR16s and I still love em...
|
|--Erik
|For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
|


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:58:31 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Synchros needed

> I would be interested in the center differential area, along with how it
> works with the rest of the transmission.  IF you could make pictures of
> everything that would be even more of a plus.
===============================================================

I'll have access to a digital camera in the next few days -- I'll post a message when I
get some photos. If you have an immediate need let me know and I'll see if I can
speed it up.

   Jim Berry

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:18:43 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Tires again

And not get the Yokohamas !!!

I currently have the 255/40-17 AVS S1-Z all around and I'm not happy with them. Not on dry roads, not on wet, they are
not that comfortable at any psi I pumped them and do not hold in the turns I do my testdrives. Why I got them ? They
had them on a great prices and come standard on the Porsche Boxter, so I thought it is not a bad tire. Well, it seems to
last long (almost twice the miles) compared to the great Dunlop SP8000 I had before.

Another car, another tire behaviour !

Later, Roger


On Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:04:36 -0700,     Bob Forrest  wrote:
>There's a great comparison on the TireRack site between...:
>
>BFGoodrich g-Force KD
>vs
>Michelin Pilot SX MXX3
>vs
>Pirelli PZero Asimmetrico
>
>at http://www.tirerack.com/tires/frames/tiretest_results_f.html
>
>Y-rated tires!  (186mph)  Whew!
>
>Forrest
__________________________

Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo
. going the wet way now !

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:59:06 -0500
From: xwing <xwing@execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Tires again

I have 17" Nitto 555's on my Honda and like them better than the Dunlop SP8000's I had
before.
The Nittos are more grippy and have better feel at the limits.  SP8000 felt kinda greasy
in
comparison, needed higher slip angles to get corner force, and with lesser traction the
rear
end would come around snap-like, not predictable.
Jack T.

Bob Forrest wrote:

> There's a great comparison on the TireRack site between...:
> BFGoodrich g-Force KD vs Michelin Pilot SX MXX3
> vs Pirelli PZero Asimmetrico
> Y-rated tires!  (186mph)  Whew!
> Forrest

> |Performance:Michelin Pilot SX MXX-3 Firestone Firehawk SZ50
> |Inexpensive:Nitto 555 Extreme Sumitomo HTR4
> |All-round:Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4
> |Snow:Michelin Pilot XGT Z4
> |
> |From Andrew Brilliant:
> | Pirelli PZERO's 14,500 Miles to replacement
> |     Best transfer torque to ground of all excellent drag
> | launch tire Good predictability  When rains you are
> | done for, due to asymetrical tread design
> | directionalle version doesn't handle as good
> |
> | Goodyear Eagle GS-C  13,000 Miles to replacement
> | Mediocre, inexpensive, excellent pridictable good ride
> |
> | BF G COMP TA-ZR 10,000 Miles to replacement
> |  hell of a tire for money, wears quickly  treadwear
> | 180 I used it up in 10,000 Miles
> |
> | Michelling Pilot SX MXX-3 8,000 Miles to replacement
> | This tire gave almost no warninig when it was about to loose
> | traction wold hold perfect till they didn't hold at all.
> |   These tires are by far the best traction,
> |  cornering capability was extremely impressive
> | Big Cons is the PRICE $$$$ 240 a piece, and they lasted 8,000 Miles.
> |
> | Goodyear Eagle F1 GS 29,000 Miles
> | This is the tire I reccommend to everyone,  300 treadwear
> | against the MXX-3 good race MXX-3 would win
> | last twice as long Don't get GS-Steel it is
> | harder compound, more precise stiffer sidewalls,wears longer.
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:03:25 -0400
From: Joshua <joshua@princelaw.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Tires again

What about those Firehawk tires people were saying were awesome and at a
real good price?

-----Original Message-----
From: xwing [mailto:xwing@execpc.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 8:59 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Tires again

I have 17" Nitto 555's on my Honda and like them better than
the Dunlop SP8000's I had
before.
The Nittos are more grippy and have better feel at the
limits.  SP8000 felt kinda greasy
in
comparison, needed higher slip angles to get corner force,
and with lesser traction the
rear
end would come around snap-like, not predictable.
Jack T.

Bob Forrest wrote:

> There's a great comparison on the TireRack site
between...:
> BFGoodrich g-Force KD vs Michelin Pilot SX MXX3
> vs Pirelli PZero Asimmetrico
> Y-rated tires!  (186mph)  Whew!
> Forrest

> |Performance:Michelin Pilot SX MXX-3 Firestone Firehawk
SZ50
> |Inexpensive:Nitto 555 Extreme Sumitomo HTR4
> |All-round:Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4
> |Snow:Michelin Pilot XGT Z4
> |
> |From Andrew Brilliant:
> | Pirelli PZERO's 14,500 Miles to replacement
> |     Best transfer torque to ground of all excellent drag
> | launch tire Good predictability  When rains you are
> | done for, due to asymetrical tread design
> | directionalle version doesn't handle as good
> |
> | Goodyear Eagle GS-C  13,000 Miles to replacement
> | Mediocre, inexpensive, excellent pridictable good ride
> |
> | BF G COMP TA-ZR 10,000 Miles to replacement
> |  hell of a tire for money, wears quickly  treadwear
> | 180 I used it up in 10,000 Miles
> |
> | Michelling Pilot SX MXX-3 8,000 Miles to replacement
> | This tire gave almost no warninig when it was about to
loose
> | traction wold hold perfect till they didn't hold at all.
> |   These tires are by far the best traction,
> |  cornering capability was extremely impressive
> | Big Cons is the PRICE $$$$ 240 a piece, and they lasted
8,000 Miles.
> |
> | Goodyear Eagle F1 GS 29,000 Miles
> | This is the tire I reccommend to everyone,  300
treadwear
> | against the MXX-3 good race MXX-3 would win
> | last twice as long Don't get GS-Steel it is
> | harder compound, more precise stiffer sidewalls,wears
longer.
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:58:50 -0500
From: "Gendron, Curt" <Curt.Gendron@westgroup.com>
Subject: Team3S: Water Injection data

Hey everyone,

John Basol and I took his car out to test his water injection system and his
knock indicator last night.  You can check out the results at:
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Shop/5641/water-injection.doc

If you need a notepad version of the file, let me know.  This data is juicy,
enjoy!!

I will be unsubscibing and resubscribing at a new address soon.  If you want
to reach me in the next two days, send you comments to this address.  After
that send them to cgendron@gateway.net


Have fun!
Curt G
95 R/T TT
and author of Minnesota 3/S at:
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Shop/1044/

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:12:50 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?= <vr4@bahnhof.se>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection data

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Gendron, Curt <Curt.Gendron@westgroup.com>

WOW!! This was really good information. THANX!

These figures are almost the same as I got when I installed WI in my Celica GT4. Those 0.25 bars make a BIG difference in performance :)

At what PSI starts the pump? (I started mine at 0.8bar)

Where is the nozle located?

Regards

Mikael http://www.3000gt.nu


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:17:41 -0500
From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Water Injection data

8psi


John Basol
System Management Services
Carlson Companies Inc.
(612) 212-3714
(612) 212-1125



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mikael Åkesson [SMTP:vr4@bahnhof.se]
> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 9:13 AM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection data
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gendron, Curt <Curt.Gendron@westgroup.com>
>
> WOW!! This was really good information. THANX!
>
> These figures are almost the same as I got when I installed WI in my
> Celica GT4. Those 0.25 bars make a BIG difference in performance :)
>
> At what PSI starts the pump? (I started mine at 0.8bar)
>
> Where is the nozle located?
>
> Regards
>
> Mikael http://www.3000gt.nu
>
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:36:20 -0500
From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Water Injection data

Sorry,
forgot to answer your other question.

The nozzle is located right after the 90 degeree turn in the y-pipi, about 4
inches away from the throttle body.


John Basol
System Management Services
Carlson Companies Inc.
(612) 212-3714
(612) 212-1125



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mikael Åkesson [SMTP:vr4@bahnhof.se]
> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 9:13 AM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection data
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gendron, Curt <Curt.Gendron@westgroup.com>
>
> WOW!! This was really good information. THANX!
>
> These figures are almost the same as I got when I installed WI in my
> Celica GT4. Those 0.25 bars make a BIG difference in performance :)
>
> At what PSI starts the pump? (I started mine at 0.8bar)
>
> Where is the nozle located?
>
> Regards
>
> Mikael http://www.3000gt.nu
>
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:37:41 -0500
From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: Team3S: Blitz Installation

Hey all,
I'm wondering if anyone has any info about removing the stock boost
controll solenoid when using a Blitz DSBC.  Specifically what effects it
had, and how to do it.  I am noticing that I'm having a hard time keeping
boost pressure held.  I can get it to peak just fine, but it tends to fall
of to 10-12psi, in 1st, 2nd, and sometimes 3rd, especially when doing 'drag
race' type launches when the turbos don't have time to build.
My DSM has no problem holding boost.  I know that is a bigger turbo,
but it's only one and it must feed 2 liters of engine.  These might be
smaller, but they are only feeding 1.5 liters a piece.
I'm hoping to be ablt to get them to hol 17-18psi a little farther
in 1st-3rd gears.

Thanks Guys


John Basol
System Management Services
Carlson Companies Inc.
(612) 212-3714
(612) 212-1125



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:45:40 +0200
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?= <vr4@bahnhof.se>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Blitz Installation

Hi

I suggest that you disconnect the stock boost solenoid. Just disconnect the lines to stock boost solenoid and then plug them with a screew and a zip tie.

I had some strange behavior as well before I disconnected the stock solenoid. Another good thing is that you will have bigger tuning range and less risc for problems with the ECU.

My turbos (9B) are holding boost very good at 1:st and 2:nd but in 3:rd gear I notice some "fall back" I don't know if I can hold 18 PSI because I haven't tested to go that high and I wont try it either before I get some water injection.

BTW do you spray the water up or down stream?

/Mikael http://www.3000gt.nu

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Basol, John <jbasol@Carlson.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 4:37 PM
Subject: Team3S: Blitz Installation


Hey all,
I'm wondering if anyone has any info about removing the stock boost
controll solenoid when using a Blitz DSBC.  Specifically what effects it
had, and how to do it.  I am noticing that I'm having a hard time keeping
boost pressure held.  I can get it to peak just fine, but it tends to fall
of to 10-12psi, in 1st, 2nd, and sometimes 3rd, especially when doing 'drag
race' type launches when the turbos don't have time to build.
My DSM has no problem holding boost.  I know that is a bigger turbo,
but it's only one and it must feed 2 liters of engine.  These might be
smaller, but they are only feeding 1.5 liters a piece.
I'm hoping to be ablt to get them to hol 17-18psi a little farther
in 1st-3rd gears.

Thanks Guys


John Basol
System Management Services
Carlson Companies Inc.
(612) 212-3714
(612) 212-1125



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:21:18 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Blitz Installation

Guys, do not mix up WI and BC related things in one post.

I just wrote a note about the DSBC settings as they seem to be off for the result. Mikael, you remember as we installed
the thing a looong time ago and we found the different behaivour and the better range to set it up. Therefore just follow
Mikaels instruction to cap the solenoid an the one line leading to it from the H connector.

For the boost behaviour, I already was wondering if the reading where peak or steady boost. Peak I guess and it would
be nice to get a boost curve too :) Anyways, increasing Gain my not help and may even result in less steady boost ! I
have also been in this boost region before (not very often, but you know ...) and the results have been in the 13.00 region 
with around 1.25 kg/cm2. The settings have been deadly G40/R60 (with 13Gs) then :((

Regards,
Roger

>I suggest that you disconnect the stock boost solenoid. Just
> disconnect the lines to stock boost solenoid and then plug them
> with a screew and a zip tie.
>
>I had some strange behavior as well before I disconnected the
> stock solenoid. Another good thing is that you will have bigger
> tuning range and less risc for problems with the ECU.
>
>My turbos (9B) are holding boost very good at 1:st and 2:nd but
> in 3:rd gear I notice some "fall back" I don't know if I can
> hold 18 PSI because I haven't tested to go that high and I wont
> try it either before I get some water injection.
__________________________

Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo
. going the wet way now !

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:20:09 -0500
From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Blitz Installation

Thanks.

I spray it towards the throttle body.

John Basol
System Management Services
Carlson Companies Inc.
(612) 212-3714
(612) 212-1125



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mikael Åkesson [SMTP:vr4@bahnhof.se]
> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 9:46 AM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Blitz Installation
>
> Hi
>
> I suggest that you disconnect the stock boost solenoid. Just disconnect
> the lines to stock boost solenoid and then plug them with a screew and a
> zip tie.
>
> I had some strange behavior as well before I disconnected the stock
> solenoid. Another good thing is that you will have bigger tuning range and
> less risc for problems with the ECU.
>
> My turbos (9B) are holding boost very good at 1:st and 2:nd but in 3:rd
> gear I notice some "fall back" I don't know if I can hold 18 PSI because I
> haven't tested to go that high and I wont try it either before I get some
> water injection.
>
> BTW do you spray the water up or down stream?
>
> /Mikael http://www.3000gt.nu
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Basol, John <jbasol@Carlson.com>
> To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 4:37 PM
> Subject: Team3S: Blitz Installation
>
>
> Hey all,
> I'm wondering if anyone has any info about removing the stock boost
> controll solenoid when using a Blitz DSBC.  Specifically what effects it
> had, and how to do it.  I am noticing that I'm having a hard time keeping
> boost pressure held.  I can get it to peak just fine, but it tends to fall
> of to 10-12psi, in 1st, 2nd, and sometimes 3rd, especially when doing
> 'drag
> race' type launches when the turbos don't have time to build.
> My DSM has no problem holding boost.  I know that is a bigger turbo,
> but it's only one and it must feed 2 liters of engine.  These might be
> smaller, but they are only feeding 1.5 liters a piece.
> I'm hoping to be ablt to get them to hol 17-18psi a little farther
> in 1st-3rd gears.
>
> Thanks Guys
>
>
> John Basol
> System Management Services
> Carlson Companies Inc.
> (612) 212-3714
> (612) 212-1125
>
>
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:52:14 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection data

Guys,

Thnaks a lot for the report ! Very good information ... but I'm not happy with your conclusion about the car running rich
all the time and that the fuel system is able to hold up to 1.4kg/cm2

Doing the math behind the scene shows that at 15 psi boost the fuel pressure is at 56psi and the stock pump can flow
about 34 gal/hr then. Assuming that it flows a little bit more in real life as well as fuelk pressure is slightly bigger we will
find a flow of about 36 gal/hr. Calculation the possible horsepower with 93% IDC the resulting horsepower is ... tata
400hp. Now remembering the dyno sessions I was really surprised that this was exactly what we found then on Jims car
(with measuring the IDC)

Now you are running on 19 psi boost, fuel pressure is now above 60 psi resulting in a possible flow of 32 gal/hr. Looking
at the table we see that even with the injectors maxed out over 80% the system cannot flow more due to the pump !
Therefore the flow of the injectors is 423ccm with this FP and this only results in 351hp. Now assuming that the
hardware is better than the blueprints, we can see 360hp then ... 40hp less than with 15psi of boost.

Strange, huh ?? No, because the power curve will be much higher above 3k rpm and the torque is much bigger. But the
hp the system is cpable is lower, i.e. loosing time and lower end-speed.

Therefore, changing the fuel pump to a larger one is the first thing to do is the pump. Running then at 19 psi of boost the
255 ltr/hr pump can deliver 52 gal/hr, enough for the stock 360 injectors. But hey, going back to the calculations shows
that at 19 psi the fuel flow will be 40 gal/h .. with an IDC of 100% !!!! We all know that this is not good for them although
the max power you can get is around 440hp !

The A/F ratio is good and of course the best power is found at the leaner side and the WI system gives you the extra
protection for that (if the readings are really ok in open loop). But the maths are showing that the fuel system is at its
end and you just runned at the edge of it. Changing the pump helps on one side but then the injectors are totally maxed
out.

I agree with all the other conclusions but not with this one. Of course you have seen the real world but try to do this
again with the hp measuring of the G-Tech pro. It is not that accurate there but check out the difference between
15/17/19 psi.

I will provide you all with a link to the Excel table about this fuel stuff tonight :)

Regards,
Roger

>John Basol and I took his car out to test his water injection system and his
>knock indicator last night.  You can check out the results at:
>http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Shop/5641/water-injection.doc
>
>If you need a notepad version of the file, let me know.  This data is juicy,
>enjoy!!
__________________________

Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo
. going the wet way now !

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:11:33 -0500
From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Water Injection data

I have to agre with you on the conclusion Roger.  I'm sure that although we
were able to make 1.4Kg, the fuel system is way overstressed at that point.
I'm sure the injectors were wide open, and I know they won't survive that
for long, but that was also a peak point.  Pressure was dropping off back
down to 18, 17, 16...,all the way back to 10psi.  I need to be able to get
it to hold boost better to get a better look at what A/F is like under
sustained high boost.

I'm curious to see the formula for computing HP.  Max power will not come on
the rich side, but we all know that we don't seem to have the luxury of
running lean, as our motors need all the cooling help they can get.  I have
also been thinking about what kinds of effects the water has on the A/F
ratio gauge.  Obviously there is oxygen in water.  Anyway.  I do believe
that 18-19psi is sustainable for the 10-12 seconds it would be under that
kind of stress.  I think I'm going to rewire my Fuel tank though with a 4 or
8 guage wire direct to the battery and a relay.  Hmmm.  I need at FP gauge.
Hey Curt, where the heck are we going to mount THAT?!?  :) 


John Basol
System Management Services
Carlson Companies Inc.
(612) 212-3714
(612) 212-1125



> -----Original Message-----
> From: R.G. [SMTP:robby@freesurf.ch]
> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 10:52 AM
> To: Curt.Gendron@westgroup.com; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com;
> jbasol@carlson.com
> Cc: cgendron@gateway.net
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection data
>
> Guys,
>
> Thnaks a lot for the report ! Very good information ... but I'm not happy
> with your conclusion about the car running rich
> all the time and that the fuel system is able to hold up to 1.4kg/cm2
>
> Doing the math behind the scene shows that at 15 psi boost the fuel
> pressure is at 56psi and the stock pump can flow
> about 34 gal/hr then. Assuming that it flows a little bit more in real
> life as well as fuelk pressure is slightly bigger we will
> find a flow of about 36 gal/hr. Calculation the possible horsepower with
> 93% IDC the resulting horsepower is ... tata
> 400hp. Now remembering the dyno sessions I was really surprised that this
> was exactly what we found then on Jims car
> (with measuring the IDC)
>
> Now you are running on 19 psi boost, fuel pressure is now above 60 psi
> resulting in a possible flow of 32 gal/hr. Looking
> at the table we see that even with the injectors maxed out over 80% the
> system cannot flow more due to the pump !
> Therefore the flow of the injectors is 423ccm with this FP and this only
> results in 351hp. Now assuming that the
> hardware is better than the blueprints, we can see 360hp then ... 40hp
> less than with 15psi of boost.
>
> Strange, huh ?? No, because the power curve will be much higher above 3k
> rpm and the torque is much bigger. But the
> hp the system is cpable is lower, i.e. loosing time and lower end-speed.
>
> Therefore, changing the fuel pump to a larger one is the first thing to do
> is the pump. Running then at 19 psi of boost the
> 255 ltr/hr pump can deliver 52 gal/hr, enough for the stock 360 injectors.
> But hey, going back to the calculations shows
> that at 19 psi the fuel flow will be 40 gal/h .. with an IDC of 100% !!!!
> We all know that this is not good for them although
> the max power you can get is around 440hp !
>
> The A/F ratio is good and of course the best power is found at the leaner
> side and the WI system gives you the extra
> protection for that (if the readings are really ok in open loop). But the
> maths are showing that the fuel system is at its
> end and you just runned at the edge of it. Changing the pump helps on one
> side but then the injectors are totally maxed
> out.
>
> I agree with all the other conclusions but not with this one. Of course
> you have seen the real world but try to do this
> again with the hp measuring of the G-Tech pro. It is not that accurate
> there but check out the difference between
> 15/17/19 psi.
>
> I will provide you all with a link to the Excel table about this fuel
> stuff tonight :)
>
> Regards,
> Roger
>
> >John Basol and I took his car out to test his water injection system and
> his
> >knock indicator last night.  You can check out the results at:
> >http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Shop/5641/water-injection.doc
> >
> >If you need a notepad version of the file, let me know.  This data is
> juicy,
> >enjoy!!
> __________________________
>
> Roger Gerl, Switzerland
> 93'3000GT TwinTurbo
> . going the wet way now !
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:13:54 -0500
From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Water Injection data

Sorry guys that was suposed to be rewire my fuel PUMP

John Basol
System Management Services
Carlson Companies Inc.
(612) 212-3714
(612) 212-1125



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Basol, John [SMTP:jbasol@carlson.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 11:12 AM
> To: 'R.G.'; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Water Injection data
>
> I have to agre with you on the conclusion Roger.  I'm sure that although
> we
> were able to make 1.4Kg, the fuel system is way overstressed at that
> point.
> I'm sure the injectors were wide open, and I know they won't survive that
> for long, but that was also a peak point.  Pressure was dropping off back
> down to 18, 17, 16...,all the way back to 10psi.  I need to be able to get
> it to hold boost better to get a better look at what A/F is like under
> sustained high boost.
>
> I'm curious to see the formula for computing HP.  Max power will not come
> on
> the rich side, but we all know that we don't seem to have the luxury of
> running lean, as our motors need all the cooling help they can get.  I
> have
> also been thinking about what kinds of effects the water has on the A/F
> ratio gauge.  Obviously there is oxygen in water.  Anyway.  I do believe
> that 18-19psi is sustainable for the 10-12 seconds it would be under that
> kind of stress.  I think I'm going to rewire my Fuel tank though with a 4
> or
> 8 guage wire direct to the battery and a relay.  Hmmm.  I need at FP
> gauge.
> Hey Curt, where the heck are we going to mount THAT?!?  :) 
>
>
> John Basol
> System Management Services
> Carlson Companies Inc.
> (612) 212-3714
> (612) 212-1125
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: R.G. [SMTP:robby@freesurf.ch]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 10:52 AM
> > To: Curt.Gendron@westgroup.com; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com;
> > jbasol@carlson.com
> > Cc: cgendron@gateway.net
> > Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection data
> >
> > Guys,
> >
> > Thnaks a lot for the report ! Very good information ... but I'm not
> happy
> > with your conclusion about the car running rich
> > all the time and that the fuel system is able to hold up to 1.4kg/cm2
> >
> > Doing the math behind the scene shows that at 15 psi boost the fuel
> > pressure is at 56psi and the stock pump can flow
> > about 34 gal/hr then. Assuming that it flows a little bit more in real
> > life as well as fuelk pressure is slightly bigger we will
> > find a flow of about 36 gal/hr. Calculation the possible horsepower with
> > 93% IDC the resulting horsepower is ... tata
> > 400hp. Now remembering the dyno sessions I was really surprised that
> this
> > was exactly what we found then on Jims car
> > (with measuring the IDC)
> >
> > Now you are running on 19 psi boost, fuel pressure is now above 60 psi
> > resulting in a possible flow of 32 gal/hr. Looking
> > at the table we see that even with the injectors maxed out over 80% the
> > system cannot flow more due to the pump !
> > Therefore the flow of the injectors is 423ccm with this FP and this only
> > results in 351hp. Now assuming that the
> > hardware is better than the blueprints, we can see 360hp then ... 40hp
> > less than with 15psi of boost.
> >
> > Strange, huh ?? No, because the power curve will be much higher above 3k
> > rpm and the torque is much bigger. But the
> > hp the system is cpable is lower, i.e. loosing time and lower end-speed.
> >
> > Therefore, changing the fuel pump to a larger one is the first thing to
> do
> > is the pump. Running then at 19 psi of boost the
> > 255 ltr/hr pump can deliver 52 gal/hr, enough for the stock 360
> injectors.
> > But hey, going back to the calculations shows
> > that at 19 psi the fuel flow will be 40 gal/h .. with an IDC of 100%
> !!!!
> > We all know that this is not good for them although
> > the max power you can get is around 440hp !
> >
> > The A/F ratio is good and of course the best power is found at the
> leaner
> > side and the WI system gives you the extra
> > protection for that (if the readings are really ok in open loop). But
> the
> > maths are showing that the fuel system is at its
> > end and you just runned at the edge of it. Changing the pump helps on
> one
> > side but then the injectors are totally maxed
> > out.
> >
> > I agree with all the other conclusions but not with this one. Of course
> > you have seen the real world but try to do this
> > again with the hp measuring of the G-Tech pro. It is not that accurate
> > there but check out the difference between
> > 15/17/19 psi.
> >
> > I will provide you all with a link to the Excel table about this fuel
> > stuff tonight :)
> >
> > Regards,
> > Roger
> >
> > >John Basol and I took his car out to test his water injection system
> and
> > his
> > >knock indicator last night.  You can check out the results at:
> > >http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Shop/5641/water-injection.doc
> > >
> > >If you need a notepad version of the file, let me know.  This data is
> > juicy,
> > >enjoy!!
> > __________________________
> >
> > Roger Gerl, Switzerland
> > 93'3000GT TwinTurbo
> > . going the wet way now !
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:30:42 -0700
From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection data

"Basol, John" wrote:
>
> I have to agre with you on the conclusion Roger.  I'm sure that although we
> were able to make 1.4Kg, the fuel system is way overstressed at that point.
> I'm sure the injectors were wide open, and I know they won't survive that
> for long, but that was also a peak point.  Pressure was dropping off back
> down to 18, 17, 16...,all the way back to 10psi.  I need to be able to get
> it to hold boost better to get a better look at what A/F is like under
> sustained high boost.

This is due to the maximum CFM capability of the 9B turbos.  Above 4500
RPM or so, the 9B's can't sustain 17 psi, and by 7000 RPM they can only
sustain about 10 psi.  Your boost is consistent with other member's
findings.  You can do the math if you want more accurate figures...I
think Roger had posted the formula a day or two ago for CFM required by
our engine at a given psi and RPM.

By the way, great data on the water injection.

- --
Hang up and drive!

Ken Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:52:50 -0700
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Water Injection data

Roger...

Would you send me a copy of the Excel table as well? I know we agreed not to
post attachments, so perhaps you could hang it off your website? I'm sure
there are many of us who would like to do quick calculations (if I
understand what the table will do).

For example, I'd like a SOTP (seat of the pants) estimate for IDC with my
560 injectors, a 90 gph fuel pump and 15G turbos under WOT at 6500 rpm. I'd
like to think I'm going to be "OK" up to 22-23 lbs of boost (but I blew off
the hose on my front turbo last night...WHY didn't they design the turbos
with a lip, so the clamps would seat behind something and STAY ON?).

THANKS (Curt, John and Roger) for the great thread on water injection!!!

Looking forward...Chris

- -----Original Message-----
From: R.G. [mailto:robby@freesurf.ch]
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 8:52 AM
To: Curt.Gendron@westgroup.com; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com;
jbasol@carlson.com
Cc: cgendron@gateway.net
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection data
<snip>

I will provide you all with a link to the Excel table about this fuel stuff
tonight :)

Regards, Roger

<end of snip>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:05:07 -0700
From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Team3S Admin - Was: BOUNCE  stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com:Non-membersubmissionfrom [Ken Middaugh  <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>]

Whoops!!  Sorry, that was supposed to be private.  My apologies.
- --
Hang up and drive!

Ken Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:23:24 -0500
From: "Phil Johnson" <dangerwit@mn.mediaone.net>
Subject: Team3S: Differences DSBC vs SSBC

I'm wondering what the technical differences are between these two units.
Obviously, one less solenoid, for starters, and less boost, but what else is
there?  I'm in the market for a BC, but I'd like to know what's what.

(Anyone seen less than $450 for Blitz?  Is there a brand other than Blitz
that you'd recommend?)

Thank you,
*Phil

Phillip Johnson
Ceridian Employer Services
612-894-3224 (w)
888-415-4894 (pager)


- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Ken Middaugh
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 12:05 PM
To: Team3S
Subject: Team3S: Re: Team3S Admin - Was: BOUNCE
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com:Non-membersubmissionfrom [Ken Middaugh
<Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>]


Whoops!!  Sorry, that was supposed to be private.  My apologies.
- --
Hang up and drive!

Ken Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510
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Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:59:57 -0700
From: Bruce Body <bbody@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Differences DSBC vs SSBC

Robocar in California will sell you one for about $390 plus shipping.
www.robocar.com ask for Shawn Morales. Use my name and tell him I'm the
guy in the red VR4 that was in last Saturday. I've already sent 2 other
people there for their DSBC.

I am not affiliated with Robocar and receive no kickbacks. I just bought
my DSBC there at a good price.

Bruce

Phil Johnson wrote:
>
> I'm wondering what the technical differences are between these two units.
> Obviously, one less solenoid, for starters, and less boost, but what else is
> there?  I'm in the market for a BC, but I'd like to know what's what.
>
> (Anyone seen less than $450 for Blitz?  Is there a brand other than Blitz
> that you'd recommend?)
>
> Thank you,
> *Phil
>
> Phillip Johnson
> Ceridian Employer Services
> 612-894-3224 (w)
> 888-415-4894 (pager)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Ken Middaugh
> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 12:05 PM
> To: Team3S
> Subject: Team3S: Re: Team3S Admin - Was: BOUNCE
> stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com:Non-membersubmissionfrom [Ken Middaugh
> <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>]
>
> Whoops!!  Sorry, that was supposed to be private.  My apologies.
> --
> Hang up and drive!
>
> Ken Middaugh
> General Atomics
> San Diego
> (619) 455-4510
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:40:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
Subject: Team3S: 1 on 1 on 1 Tire Question (My last one on this subject!)

(Editor's Note: I can get wordy!)

OK, I've narrowed my choice down to three selections.  Here are the
details:
Size: 245/50R16
Tire Rack Prices, including s/h and tax:
Firestone SZ50, 641.79
Firestone SVX, 553.97
Goodrich VR4, 532.20

I'd "like" to go with the SZ50's, but that $100 difference is a bit
daunting.  So here are my questions:

Have any of you done "A-B" comparisons of the VR4 vs. the SVX?
Have any of you done "A-B" comparisons of the VR4 vs. the SZ50?

I currently have a set of 225/55R16 VR4's on my Stealth, and have been
quite happy with their grip and tread life.  Is the step up to the SZ50
going to give me much improvement?  Or is the fact I'm changing to 245/50
going to be more noticeable than switching between brands.

Please limit the discussion to these three flavors of tires.  It was
difficult enough for me to narrow it down to these, please don't confuse
me with more choices.  ;)

Thanks.

Dennis Moore
stealth@kiva.net
93 Stealth ES

How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost?

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:18:25 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: Team3S: Electric Supercharger details (long, but pls read)

Ok, a while back, someone mentioned the E-RAM on one of the lists, and I've
been looking into it.  http://www.electricsupercharger.com/  for those who
never saw it or don't remember.  Bottom line:  Supercharger powered by your
electrical system that generates 1 psi of pressure at the intake and spools
up in .1 seconds.  It is activated by a switch that closes when you hit WOT
(you install the switch, so you theoretically could have it turn on whenever
you want).  They guarantee a 4%-6% increase in HP at the wheels, or they'll
refund your money and 1/2 of your dyno fee.  There is also a dual stage
E-RAM that produces 2psi (8-12% more HP).  They run about $300 and $600
respectively.  I've talked with one of their product engineers, and it seems
like a pretty cool idea, and the product seems pretty solid.  By the end of
July, I should be able to be the "guinea pig" for those in the group who are
interested.  Thus I have some questions:

Anyone who has knowledge of the intake and/or electrical system of cars in
general, or especially information specific to our cars, please read on!

Two main issues: 1) Installation
2) Demand on our electrical
system



A) Issue 1: Installation:
<Background for those unfamiliar with the NA 3000GT under the hood>
I have the Non-Turbo DOHC (222HP) engine.  It looks similar to the turbo
3000GT engine in the following pictures (if someone has an underhood shot of
a NA, please let me know):  <Thanks, John, for the TT pics>
http://user.icx.net/~adams/91_3000GT_engine_04.jpg

http://user.icx.net/~adams/3000GT_engine_done.jpg

The TB is in the middle rear of the engine bay, attached to the left side of
the intake plenum The only relevant difference between this picture and the
NA is that where you see a Y-pipe from the TB to the 2 intake hoses, the NA
just has a single 3" tube from the TB to the MAS and airbox (black thing on
left between strut tower and fuse box with blue writing)  The intake tube is
ribbed, rubberized tubing that comes out of the TB (round 3") like the
picture, takes a 90 degree turn toward the front of the car, goes about
1.5', and takes a leftward 90 degree turn (slightly downward, too) and
attaches to the MAS/airbox (oval opening about 2" by 4").  The MAS must be
connected for the ECU to calculate IDC, and it has these oval openings,
rather than the round 3", so it makes elimination of the stock intake tubing
difficult.  This also appears to eliminate the option of using the E-RAM kit
with the K&N filter already installed (I plan to replace the airbox with an
open element filter anyway).
<End of background>


Options I've thought of:

1) Cut up the straight portion of the stock intake tubing (running
where the Y-pipe is in this picture), and install the E-RAM between the MAS
and the TB.  I think this would work, but I'd have to butcher the stock
intake tube (rather not do that, but...I guess I could) and I'd still have a
rather restrictive and twisty intake tube.

2) Eliminate the battery(directly left of TB opening, gold in 2nd
picture) in the engine compartment (dry cell in trunk via 4ga cables), and
run a custom tube out of the TB about 6" to the left, bend it 90 degrees
toward the front of the car, install e-ram in-line, figure out some way to
attach the MAS after the e-ram (dumb oval opening again), and slap a K&N
FIPK on after the MAS.  This would result in a cleaner intake path with only
one bend, and the filter would be pointing toward the front of the car,
sitting about where the Y-pipe connects to the two smaller pipes in the
picture.  This option, while more difficult, would probably yield better
performance.  I'd still have to deal with the oval shape of the connections
to the MAS housing, though, and I'm not sure how to deal with that...ideas,
anyone?

3) Someone got another idea?



B) Issue 2: Electrical Demand
Operating current: single 40A  double 80-100A
Peak current: single 65A double 130A

With the engine on, the device should never draw more than a few
amps over the steady state upon startup; the peak numbers are for beginning
with 0 airflow.  I think our alternator (stock) is a 140A, but someone told
me they thought it was 110A.  Anyone know definitively?  I don't want to
trash my alternator/voltage regulator, and I figure I should have some power
left over for those non-essential things like spark plugs and headlights:)
I'm toying with putting a 1F or 1.5F capacitor in there, so the current
surge should have minimal effects on the rest of the electronics.  With the
dual-stage (Super E-RAM), is it realistic for a car with a 110-140A
alternator to power one of those things without having to shut off
everything else before using it?  I like the idea of more power (dual
e-ram), but I also want my car driveable(better to go with the single?)  I
know that the battery can supply the extra current not provided by the
alternator if the total current draw of the car exceeds the capability of
the alternator, but is this overly bad for the electrical system?  In know
the starter motor can draw several hundred amperes with the alternator off,
but this is relatively infrequent. 
Given the above, is the option of eliminating the wet cell battery
mentioned in Option 2 above even an option?  Would 2 dry cell batteries be
necessary if I had a stereo in there?

Any comments/suggestions would be much appreciated!!
Thanks!
- --Erik

- ------                                             ----------
Erik Gross                                         DuPont, WA
'95 Pearl White 3000GT 56k mi  stock + SZ50 245/50/ZR16 tires
- ------                                             ----------
"To believe in the supernatural is not simply to believe that
 after living a successful, material, and fairly virtuous
 life here one will continue to exist in the best-possible
 substitute for this world, or that after living a starved
 and stunted life here one  will be compensated with all the
 good things one has gone without: it is to believe that the
 supernatural is the greatest reality here and now."   
                                              --T. S. Eliot
- -------------------------------------------------------------
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