--

From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com (Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S Digest V1 #211
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Errors-To: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Precedence: bulk


Team3S Digest          Sunday, June 20 1999          Volume 01 : Number 211




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Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 17:20:54 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Fuel injectors ???

> This is my first post so bear with me if this is a  dumb ass question. I have
> a 92 R/T NON TURBO..could I change to bigger injectors and fuel pump for more
> power??
>
> Dave.
=========================================================================
The thing you need to do first is to get it to breath better and that's where less restrictive air
filters,
exhausts and throttle bodies come in. Since it's a fuel injected computer controlled engine it will
try to provide the fuel necessary to support the air flow you provided by your air flow mods.
At some point the injectors will be maxed out and will need to be upgraded but I have no idea where
that point is in a N/A car. The thing that determines when the injectors max out is IDC, or injector
duty cycle, once it gets up to 80% or 90% for prolonged periods of time the injectors can be
damaged.
Your computer is calibrated to use with stock injectors, larger injectors will just cause a rich
mixture
since the fuel map you are working from is for smaller injectors. At this point you need an
aftermarket
computer or a injector control device to fool the computer or a system that replaces the intake
system.

BTY no flaming is allowed so you can ask any technical question you want. Their are guys out there
who make my knowledge level seem puny, but I'm not afraid to pick their brains.

The DSM group would probably be a good source for mods to a N/A as there are more of them in
that group. Going through the archives should also give you a lot lf information for a few nights
reading.

Jim Berry  >>>          93 stealth TT ---- "arrest me red"
                       K&N FPIK -- Magnicore/.034" --- Blitz SSBC
                           [soon] --- GAB struts --- Stillen SS lines
                                 GC/Eibach  550# F/330# R
                    Gtech --- 0-60 = 4.75 -- 1/4 = 13.3 @ 110 mph
===========================================================================

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 12:47:29 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Fuel injectors ???

>> a 92 R/T NON TURBO..could I change to bigger injectors and fuel pump for
more
>> power??


As Jim already stated, for more power also more fuel and therefore also more
air is needed ! But the air path is not that restrictive on our 3 litre
engine.

If you want to gain from the more air/fuel good headers must be done, also
the valve lift and cam timing as well as ignition has to be changed. Even
more, the car runs better if tuned to the leaner side und a hot timing and
any more fuel delivery would result in less power.

Unfortunately, there is no cheap way to increase power on an N/A car. The
cheapest is a 100hp nitrous shot.

Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT


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Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 19:23:41 -0500
From: xwing <xwing@execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection

It would be great if you could dyno the car with water injection off, then on, etc so we
can quantify the ACTUAL hp / curve difference that WI makes.  ERL was unable to cite any
figures on ANY car when I called them 'back in the day'...
Jack Tertadian

"R.G." wrote:

> Water injection system is appropriate where too much heat
> generated and only low octane gas available. The more pressure in
> chamber the higher the temp and  higher danger
> for detonation.  turbos efficiency becomes
> degraded over 12 psi and discharge become much hotter

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 08:21:30 -0400
From: Joshua <joshua@princelaw.com>
Subject: Question RE: Team3S: Water Injection

If you put water injection in or on your car however you wanna say it, must
you always keep it on?  I was under the assumption that you could use it or
not use it if you had it installed and that you didn't always have to use
it. 

-----Original Message-----
From: xwing [mailto:xwing@execpc.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 1999 8:24 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection

It would be great if you could dyno the car with water
injection off, then on, etc so we
can quantify the ACTUAL hp / curve difference that WI makes.
ERL was unable to cite any
figures on ANY car when I called them 'back in the day'...
Jack Tertadian

"R.G." wrote:

> Water injection system is appropriate where too much heat
> generated and only low octane gas available. The more
pressure in
> chamber the higher the temp and  higher danger
> for detonation.  turbos efficiency becomes
> degraded over 12 psi and discharge become much hotter

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 08:40:16 -0500
From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: RE: Question RE: Team3S: Water Injection

-----Original Message-----
From: Joshua [SMTP:joshua@princelaw.com]
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 1999 7:22 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Question RE: Team3S: Water Injection

If you put water injection in or on your car however you wanna say
it, must
you always keep it on?  I was under the assumption that you could
use it or
not use it if you had it installed and that you didn't always have
to use
it. 

All of the WI systems I have seen are pressure sensitive, meaning
they turn on at a certain pressure point.  To completely turn off my system,
I would have to either pull the fuse, or disconnect power by some other
method.  It would not be very hard to wire an on/off switch into any of the
systems though.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 16:57:50 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection

>It would be great if you could dyno the car with water injection off, then
on, etc so we
>can quantify the ACTUAL hp / curve difference that WI makes.  ERL was
unable to cite any
>figures on ANY car when I called them 'back in the day'...


Yes, this is on my schedule ! I will dyno the car as it is and without more
steady boost (1.00 bars). Then the water injection will be switched on under
the very same ambient. Finally the new pressure will be set by looking the
dyno where the timing is getting retarded, IDC and A/F ratio. Of course, the
real power will be made by increasing the boost :))

I hope to get the System by the end of next week and will may start without
the injectors (just fuel pump).

Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT


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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:51:06 -0700
From: Bruce Body <bbody@pacbell.net>
Subject: Team3S: Timing Meter?

It seems that in our never ending quest for more power, we have to deal
with detonation more than any other issue. There are several ways to
monitor for this behavior: EGT, A/F and IDC come to mind. These are all
aids that are used to determine IF detonation is occurring. But this
does not tell you for sure that it is.

It is also my understanding that the ECU monitors the knock sensor and
if knock is detected, impedes or retards the timing until the condition
has passed. So my question to the list is: why is there no mention of a
timing gauge or meter?

Since the crankshaft position sensor and the no. 1 cylinder ignition are
both pulse signals, it should be fairly simple for someone with an
electronics background to extrapolate those signals to form a base at
the idle state ignition timing. Then as the timing advances, display
this change on an analog volt meter of sufficient sweep. Then one could
watch the timing curve in real time from the driver's seat and back off
the throttle or further tune if the timing starts to retard due to
knock. I know that it takes a certain amount of time for the ECU to
react to the knock sensor, but this action is real whereas the EGT, A/F
are only very educated guesses that detonation is actually occurring.
One could take this a step further and build a meter that would compare
timing to rpms. If the timing retards while the rpms are still
increasing, a warning could be sent such as an audible signal or
flashing light.

Am I missing something or has this been covered before? I don't see
anything in the archives and have never heard such discussions.

Bruce
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 15:11:11 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Autocrossing

Took the 94 VR4 to a Corvette Club autocross today, and cleaned house.

I had 3rd fastest time, beaten only by a "special" 1500 lb V8
racer/roadster (sorta like a Lotus Super 7, but with a Chevy V8) who had
FTD by 10 seconds, and a 1966 454 autocrossing Corvette on sticky tires,
driven by the race organizer, who set up the course. Strangely enough, all
the straights seemed to fit his gearing just fine, while I was hitting the
rev limiter 100 ft prior to braking at most turns. Behind me was a 5.0
Mustang on sticky tires, then a gaggle of C5 Vettes.

Pissed them off royally that a rice burner and a 5.0  could whomp their new
Vettes!

BTW, Corvette Club autocrosses are usually much better than SCCA events,
because Corvette courses are wide open. SCCA events are designed for
motorized go karts with super tight turns and stupid slaloms (yuk -- what
does a slalom have to do with anything?).

With our cars, the trick is to get back on the power early, at or before
the apex. Corvettes will smoke the rear tires and get into huge powerslides
if they try that, but our cars just put the power down, smoke all four
sometimes, and accelerate out of the turn without sliding. We may lose a
little in acceleration to the raw power of a C5, but we get it back coming
out of the turns earlier.  (Thanks to whoever it was that gave me that tip
last year: This was the first chance I've had to try it, and it works great!.)

Give autocrossing a go sometime. I pump my stock Michelins to 44/38 hot and
they stick pretty good.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 00:20:31 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection

>Does anyone know how long the water last in the water injection system? Is
it
>something like 1gallon/hour?Just wondering if driving to work would exhaust
>the supply.

Remember, the system activates the water flow at a specific boost (e.g. 12
psi) and only flows the fluid if boost is higher than that ! Try to count
the time you run this amount of boost and you'll see that this is not that
often, espcially as you should not push the car hard or above 3000 rpm until
the oil temp is ok (like driving to work in the morning)

Also it depends on teh system as with the System 1 from ERL the water flows
at a specific amount sepcified while the System 2 regulates the water flow
with a boost sensor. Therefore at 12psi there will be just a little amount
of water injected and in the upper range the whole reservoir will be given
:)

A Porsche Turbo owner drives around for 2 weeks with one tank while there is
a Cyclone that fills up the tank almost every day (he has still some knock
and just dumps in the juice)


The max flow with the ERL is about 200ml / Minute.

Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 21:36:24 -0000
From: "Shawn and Sarah Cullen" <spcullen@prodigy.net>
Subject: Team3S: Possible auto tranny problem

Hey -- posted this on the message board also, but thought  that I'd pick the
brains of the mechanics in here...

I have a 92SL with an automatic transmission, and every once in a while when
I shift into reverse, it will pause a couple of seconds and then shift
pretty hard.  Enough to rock the car a bit.

This concerns me greatly.  All other shifts to all other gears are great --
nice and smooth no matter how hard or gently I'm driving.

Anyone know what could possibly be the problem?  Any input would be greatly
appreciated.  Thank you in advance.

Shawn
92SL
3Si#300


- -----Original Message-----
From: R.G. <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: MrX2111@aol.com <MrX2111@aol.com>; Team3S List
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Sunday, June 20, 1999 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection


>>Does anyone know how long the water last in the water injection system? Is
>it
>>something like 1gallon/hour?Just wondering if driving to work would
exhaust
>>the supply.
>
>Remember, the system activates the water flow at a specific boost (e.g. 12
>psi) and only flows the fluid if boost is higher than that ! Try to count
>the time you run this amount of boost and you'll see that this is not that
>often, espcially as you should not push the car hard or above 3000 rpm
until
>the oil temp is ok (like driving to work in the morning)
>
>Also it depends on teh system as with the System 1 from ERL the water flows
>at a specific amount sepcified while the System 2 regulates the water flow
>with a boost sensor. Therefore at 12psi there will be just a little amount
>of water injected and in the upper range the whole reservoir will be given
>:)
>
>A Porsche Turbo owner drives around for 2 weeks with one tank while there
is
>a Cyclone that fills up the tank almost every day (he has still some knock
>and just dumps in the juice)
>
>
>The max flow with the ERL is about 200ml / Minute.
>
>Regards,
>Roger
>93'3000GT TT
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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------------------------------

End of Team3S Digest V1 #211
****************************

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