--
From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
(Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Team3S Digest V1 #209
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Errors-To:
owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Precedence:
bulk
Team3S
Digest Friday, June 18
1999 Volume 01 : Number
209
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:02:04 -0700
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Wind noise
Rich...
You can't beat a VR4 for a commuter
car :-) I don't have the sunroof,
but I've
heard that the seal is a real problem at high speeds. I've heard
horror
stories about the front edge lifting away from the gasket by a 1/2"
at speeds
over 140 mph. As for the door windows, I've found the same design
flaw (who
would imagine Mitsubishi worrying about the weight of a full door
panel when
they're building a car that weighs in over 3700 pounds). Anyway,
if I close
the door with the window up, it "sometimes" (50%?) doesn't
completely latch
at the top roof panel. My solution has been to open the
window after the door
is closed, then run it back up. This ensures that it
seats behind the clip
(latch?) at the top. As I say, a poor design, my 1992
Talon turbo had a full
door panel (surrounding the window).
If someone else knows of a permanent
way to fix this, please post to the
list. Thanks.
BTW...our cars
cruise perfectly at nearly any speed. I've done the run
between Redding (CA)
and Sacramento (CA), which is 165 miles of flat open
highway on I-5, a number
of times with the cruise control set on 125 mph.
Going down to meet Bob
Forrest in January, I kept it at 145 mph for thirty
miles. With the Active
Aero on, it feels like 80 mph in the average car (or
60 mph in my commuter
car, a Suzuki Swift GTi).
Looking forward...Chris
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Merritt [mailto:merritt@cedar-rapids.net]
Sent:
Thursday, June 17, 1999 1:41 PM
To: 3000gt_stealth@listbot.com; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Team3S: Wind noise
<snip>
However, the wind noise at 90-110 mph
is annoying. I hear wind hissing and
blowing around both windows and the roof
glass. Any idea what to do about
it?
<snip>
Rich/old poop/94
VR4 commuter car
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 17 Jun 1999 16:20:00 -0600
From: "Jeffrey Young" <jefyoung@ix.netcom.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Wind noise
Rich;
When I first got my 92 TT, I also had
a problem with wind noise, not to
mention the fact that I got drenched
whenever I went through a car wash. I
took it back to the dealer (whose
comment was that I should be going that
fast...AH.) and they adjusted the
door hinges to the point where the seal of
the window to the rubber was much
better. Wind noise was greatly dimished,
and I quit going to mechanical
car washes!! Don't know what you can do
about the roof glass, since I
don't have one.
Jeffrey
92 RT/Turbo
www.omega-sw.com/stealth
<snip>
However,
the wind noise at 90-110 mph is annoying. I hear wind hissing and
blowing
around both windows and the roof glass. Any idea what to do
about
it?
Rich/old poop/94 VR4 commuter car
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:38:07 -0700
From: Bruce Body <bbody@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Wind noise
I know what you mean about cruising at speed. A couple
of years ago I
went to Montana and Idaho and the car felt like it was meant
to cruise
at 110-120 all day, which it did! I had neither the wind nor
sunroof
problem. FWIW I have the smaller solid electric roof.
There
was a thread on 3Si.org a few months ago where people were
complaining about
the wind leaks, even on new cars. Turns out that many
cars came that way from
the factory and the window can be adjusted to
spec and it took care of the
problem. Apparently the tolerances are
quite close. If anyone needs me to, I
can scan the procedure from my
manual and email to you. My manual covers all
models from 92-96. Just
tell me what format you want the image in. Just let
me know.
Bruce
Chris Winkley wrote:
>
>
Rich...
>
> You can't beat a VR4 for a commuter car
:-) I don't have the sunroof,
> but I've heard that the
seal is a real problem at high speeds. I've heard
> horror stories about
the front edge lifting away from the gasket by a 1/2"
> at speeds over 140
mph. As for the door windows, I've found the same design
> flaw (who would
imagine Mitsubishi worrying about the weight of a full door
> panel when
they're building a car that weighs in over 3700 pounds). Anyway,
> if I
close the door with the window up, it "sometimes" (50%?) doesn't
>
completely latch at the top roof panel. My solution has been to open the
>
window after the door is closed, then run it back up. This ensures that
it
> seats behind the clip (latch?) at the top. As I say, a poor design,
my 1992
> Talon turbo had a full door panel (surrounding the
window).
>
> If someone else knows of a permanent way to fix this,
please post to the
> list. Thanks.
>
> BTW...our cars cruise
perfectly at nearly any speed. I've done the run
> between Redding (CA)
and Sacramento (CA), which is 165 miles of flat open
> highway on I-5, a
number of times with the cruise control set on 125 mph.
> Going down to
meet Bob Forrest in January, I kept it at 145 mph for thirty
> miles. With
the Active Aero on, it feels like 80 mph in the average car (or
> 60 mph
in my commuter car, a Suzuki Swift GTi).
>
> Looking
forward...Chris
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
Merritt [mailto:merritt@cedar-rapids.net]
>
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 1999 1:41 PM
> To: 3000gt_stealth@listbot.com; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
Subject: Team3S: Wind noise
> <snip>
>
> However, the
wind noise at 90-110 mph is annoying. I hear wind hissing and
> blowing
around both windows and the roof glass. Any idea what to do about
>
it?
> <snip>
>
> Rich/old poop/94 VR4 commuter
car
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 17 Jun 1999 16:18:01 -0700
From: Bruce Body <bbody@pacbell.net>
Subject: Team3S:
EGT Question
I am posting this on behalf of someone (with permission) at
3si.org
because I am looking to get an EGT too and am interested in
the
response.
Bruce
"Hey Bob F or Roger G"
"I noticed in
your website the green beast that you had a dual EGT
gauge, Im wondering what
bank runs the leanest due to the fuel rail
setup and whats the normal EGT
temp. just got my HKS EGT meter and need
to hear from someone with any
experience in this area. here is a list of
some of the mods. 15gs,MSD
ignition, HKS SSBOV, 550 inj,HKS fuel
pump,upgraded intercoolers,and
more.thanks for the help."
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 17 Jun 1999 18:25:25 -0500
From: "Phil Johnson" <dangerwit@mn.mediaone.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Beginner's question
Wow, guys, I don't have the seeds yet for
going over 100+. Here in MN, it
seems the cops are a little anal.. I
was pulled over by a bedwetter who
noticed I had no front plate.
Arggrgh.
Anyway, my car is in for service with a new clutch and the mechs
there bent
my transmission linkage cabe, knocking out 1, 3, and 5.
(Oops!)
Could someone explain, if within the context of this group, how
these two
cables make the magic happen? That is, when I shift, what do
these cables
do, and how does it affect the transmission? (I imagine
I'll hear about
synchros somehwere in there too, that's
okay)
Thanks,
*Phil
Phillip Johnson
Ceridian Employer
Services
612-894-3224 (w)
888-415-4894 (pager)
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 17 Jun 1999 18:40:34 -0700
From: Bruce Body <bbody@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Wind noise
I have scanned the window alignment procedure in jpg
format and placed
in a zip file for those that are interested. It is too
large to post
here. To Rich Merritt & Craig Hodges, I have already sent
yours at your
request. Hope it helps.
Bruce
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 17 Jun 1999 23:04:04 EDT
From: TurboDrvn@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Re:
strut bushing
In a message dated 6/17/99 10:26:26 AM Central Daylight
Time,
cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com
writes:
<< Looking forward...Chris
1995 Glacier
Pearl White VR4 (w/HKS Super Flo intake, TEC 15G turbos, bored
and
polished throttle body, RC 560cc injectors, HKS fuel pump, GReddy
PRofec
A boost controller, G-force ECU upgrade, HKS SBOV, custom
intercoolers,
Predator dry cell battery, Magnecore 8.5mm wires, NGK
double platinum plugs
gapped at .030", ATR downpipe and test pipe,
GReddy catback exhaust, GReddy
turbo timer, Eibach 1" drop progressive
springs)
>>
Hey Chris,
Thanks again for your input
re: the strut bushing. I will keep
trying! But there is NO
aftermarket company that makes these bushings for
our cars! I'll
try your suggestion to take measurements and cross reference
with other car
manufacturer's bushings.
By the way, Great list of mods! What
kind of time do you get in the
1/4 mile? also please include your 60
foot time!
Later,
Ahmed "AL-Crazy" - '92 VR4
GReddy Profec B boost controller, GReddy turbo timer, Apex'i sequential
b.o.v., SPI motorsport boost gauge & pillar pod, K&N filtercharger,
Alamo
Downpipe, Hi-flow cat, Borla exhaust, KVR Cross drilled rotors with
carbon
fiber pads, Nitto Power Extreme NT-555 (255/40/17's) tires, Eibach
springs &
Enkei RP-O1 17x9 (42mm offset) custom racing wheels (Springs
and wheels not
installed yet).
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 17 Jun 1999 23:19:01 EDT
From: TurboDrvn@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Wind noise
In a message dated 6/17/99 8:42:35 PM Central Daylight Time,
bbody@pacbell.net
writes:
<< I have scanned the window alignment procedure in jpg
format and placed
in a zip file for those that are interested. It is
too large to post
here. To Rich Merritt & Craig Hodges, I have
already sent yours at your
request. Hope it
helps.
Bruce >>
Hi Bruce,
Please forward
this to me as well. Thank you!
Ahmed - '92 VR4
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 17 Jun 1999 21:15:42 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Beginner's question
> Anyway, my car is in for service with a new
clutch and the mechs there bent
> my transmission linkage cabe, knocking
out 1, 3, and 5. (Oops!)
>
> Could someone explain, if within
the context of this group, how these two
> cables make the magic
happen? That is, when I shift, what do these cables
> do, and how
does it affect the
transmission.
======================================================================
A
complete dissertation on a manual gearbox is a little beyond the scope of this
site. There are
two cables that go from the shifter and they perform two
separate functions. One causes the
shift mechanism in the trans to move
forward and back, the other causes the shift mechanism
to move up and down.
These two motions select the gear you want. For example up and forward
would
select 1st while up and back would select 2nd. For the five speed there are
actually three
positions in the up/down motion, which allows six
choices.
Jim Berry
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 04:09:08 -0400
From: RPM Motorsport <rpmmotorsport@adelphia.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Bozz parts for Sale
Bozz Speed Bonnet Scoops $300
Bozz Speed
Rear Wing Extension $250
Bozz Speed Rear Wing Side Supports $400
Bozz
Speed Y-Pipe with Additional Injector and stock BOV opening $300
Factory
Strut Covers Painted Electric Blue off a 91 $50 for the pair
Pictures of
extension pieces can be seen at the Bozz Speed Web site
www.bozz.co.jp
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 12:53:20 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: EGT Question
Umpf, I'm not of much help as I haven't installed an
EGT in our cars yet (the parts just sit on the floor).
>"I noticed in
your website the green beast that you had a dual EGT
>gauge, Im wondering
what bank runs the leanest due to the fuel rail
>setup and whats the
normal EGT temp.
I don't see why one bank should be leaner due to the
fuel rails ! Flow and pressure should be the same and I doubt that this
plays a rule with 550 inj. But I know what you mean and this is one of my
projects for the future :)
Normal EGTs for turbo engines will range from
1400 to 1650 °F (these are consistent temperature readings) but I'd say that
the measurings should be in the 780 - 860 °C area (1440 - 1580
°F).
What are the readings you all see with an EGT ? Let us know
...
What do you use for fuel control, let me guess ... VPC ?
For
tuning in the stuff, it'd be a good idea to observe the intake temperatures as
well. The 15G produce lower discharge
temperatures at the same boost
compared to the 9B. Even the 13G showed lower readings ! Your upgraded
intercoolers
should be able to decrease the temperture even more. But it is
a good idea to determine the efficiency of the turbos and the
intercooler
with the help of two temp meters with small probes. You can then crank up boost
up to the point where the
produced temeprature by the turbo is way to much
compared to the pressure gain. Here the efficiency of the turbos will then
be degraded !
The MSD ignition "may" help to increase spark energy
and the benefit is that the plugs must not be gapped so low.
Let us know
how it goes :)
Roger
__________________________
Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo
. going the wet way now !
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 07:19:01 -0400
From: Joshua <joshua@princelaw.com>
Subject:
Team3S: OBD2 Help
Which cars came with OBD2 and which years? I have
a 94 vr-4 and I am
looking into purchasing a Clarion AutoPC. Veltronics
has an attachment
which connects into cars with OBD2 and can diagnose the car
and problems
while also taking voice commands to unlock and lock doors.
Any info would
be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Joshua
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:47:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
Subject: Team3S:
Header change? (admin question)
Greetings,
I noticed that the
"reply-to" line on the header is gone from all the
messages I'm receiving
from the list. Can that be put back in, please?
It makes it easier to
send messages to the list, including answering
mother members'
queries.
Thanks.
Dennis Moore
stealth@kiva.net
How many roads must a
man travel down before he admits he is lost?
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:51:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Header change? (admin question)
"mother members" should be "other
members". I'll learn to type one of
these days...
Dennis
Moore
stealth@kiva.net
How many
roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost?
On Fri, 18 Jun
1999, Dennis Moore wrote:
> It makes it easier to send messages to the
list, including answering
> mother members' queries.
k
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:04:30 -0500
From: "Gendron, Curt" <Curt.Gendron@westgroup.com>
Subject:
Team3S: The life of a Minnesota 3/Ser
Hey everyone,
I'm just
writing to express my opinions on my club, "Minnesota 3/S". In
a
nutshell, I love it. For those of you that don't know what I'm
talking
about, I'll explain.
I've been on the Starnet list for
about a year now. I was always so jealous
of the awesome 3/S gatherings
they had on the East Coast and the blur of DSM
clubs through out the
country. Last October, myself and three other 3/S
owners met at a
restaurant in the Twin Cities and just chatted about cars
for three
hours. Then in January, a few of us met at the Mall of America,
to ride
a NASCAR simulator. Then in the end of January, I decide to start
a
3000GT/Stealth club in Minnesota called "Minnesota 3/S" I started to
work
on a webpage after work for a few days and before I knew it, it was up
and
running. We had about six members at that time, but we finally had
a place
to call home.
Now, six months later, we have 20 members, and
still growing. We have had a
total of eight offical events, and many
more scheduled for the future. I've
also established some good
discounts on parts and labor at a local
dealership. And the website is
so big, I had to subscribe to another
GeoCities account because I was almost
past the 11 meg limit.
One of the best things about being in a car club,
is the exchange of
knowledge. A year ago, I didn't even know how to
change spark plugs on my
Stealth. Now, I've done that, install my own
boost gauge and boost
controller and I do all my own oil changes. (with Mobil
1 of course)
Soon, me and several other "Minnesota 3/Sers" will be adding
water injection
systems into our Twin Turbo beasts. We have one member
that has it already,
and it has shown to be quit the horsepower
improvement. The sky is the
limit, when it comes to these
cars.
Lastly, I'd like to thank all of those "Minnesota 3/Sers" hanging
out in
Starnet land and Team3S country. And also to all the other
valuable list
members that have helped me over the last year. Its been
a great ride, I
hope it never ends.
Later,
Curt G
95 R/T
TT
and author of Minnesota 3/S at:
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Shop/1044/
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:09:42 -0600
From: "Jeffrey Young" <jefyoung@ix.netcom.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Bob Fontanna's site
I tried to get into Bob Fontanna's
site
http://www.gate.net/~mits/racerpt.html
) and got an Error 404 - File Not
Found. Bob...Are you out there?
Where did your site go...I need the page
on VPC tuning. Does anybody
have a copy of the pages?
Thanks
Jeffrey
92 RT/Turbo
www.omega-sw.com/stealth
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:38:09 +0200
From: Matthews <matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Wind noise
Chris Winkley wrote:
>
> Going down
to meet Bob Forrest in January, I kept it at 145 mph for thirty
> miles.
With the Active Aero on, it feels like 80 mph in the average car (or
> 60
mph in my commuter car, a Suzuki Swift GTi).
Now that's Autobahn
territory! Of course it's more relaxing here since
it's legal, but I'm
glad you found an opportunty to really enjoy your 6
speed. BTW, you
didn't mention your gas mileage on that trip... :-)
Regarding wind
noise, it's definitely worse for those with sunroofs. My
'94 TT has no
sunroof, and wind noise increases linearly with speed as I
would
expect. It's pretty loud at 140+, but at these speeds I'm usually
too
busy driving to notice! :-)
- --
Jim Matthews - Wiesbaden,
Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de
(64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
***
3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet
Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active
Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0
bar @ 72% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Blitz Blow-Off
Valve
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix
brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, Top
Speed: 168mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
1 Feb
99 Dyno Session: 406 SAE HP, 354 lb-ft torque
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:17:33 +0200
From: Matthews <matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: EGT Question
"R.G." wrote:
>
> Normal EGTs for
turbo engines will range from 1400 to 1650 °F (these are consistent temperature
readings) but I'd say that
> the measurings should be in the 780 - 860 °C
area (1440 - 1580 °F).
I'm note sure if Mike Chapleski is in town at the
moment, but during the
dyno run, he was seeing 975 degrees on the way down
(.04x plug gap) and
925 degrees on the way back (.034 plug gap). Note
that I don't believe
his gauge can differentiate between banks.
- --
Jim Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de
(64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
***
3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet
Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active
Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0
bar @ 72% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Blitz Blow-Off
Valve
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix
brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, Top
Speed: 168mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
1 Feb
99 Dyno Session: 406 SAE HP, 354 lb-ft torque
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 08:18:14 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
The life of a Minnesota 3/Ser
> Soon, me and several other "Minnesota
3/Sers" will be adding water injection
> systems into our Twin Turbo
beasts. We have one member that has it already,
> and it has shown
to be quit the horsepower
improvement.
==========================================================================
If
you have any information on the water injection systems used please share it
with
the team. If you follow the list you know some bandwidth was devoted to
water injection.
Some of the commercial systems look good but can get pricey
plus there are problems
to overcome --- pooling - where to inject - filtering
etc. etc. Any experience you guys
can share would be appreciated.
Jim
Berry >>>
93 stealth TT ---- "arrest me
red"
K&N FPIK -- Magnicore/.034" --- Blitz
SSBC
[soon] --- GAB struts --- Stillen SS
lines
GC/Eibach 550# F/330#
R
Gtech --- 0-60 = 4.75 -- 1/4 = 13.3 @ 110 mph
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:23:21 -0500
From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Insight from the new guy
Hello Everybody!
First off I would like
to introduce myself. My name is John Basol.
I am from Minneapolis, MN
and drive a '95 RT/TT. I have just recently
started playing around with
the Stealth, as I have a different project car
that keeps me busy in the
garage most of time. I bought the Stealth in
February of this year,
found the 3SI (and consequently the MN chapter of
3SI) web sites, and have
gotten to hear about the trouble and tribulations
that some people have
experienced with the cars. By the time I got around
to modifying mine I
knew a couple of important things about what was
happening with them.
1)
Without changing the fuel system, people were blowing
pistons & rings
when pushing above 15-16psi on pump gas.
and
2) With a modified
fuel system, people were blowing pistons &
rings when pushing above
17-18psi on pump gas.
The examples I give above are obviously for
extended periods of
time. Anyway...As I started looking at Roger's home
page (great info up
there Roger!), as well as the archives of this list,
(yep, I went through
all 204 archives.) I have come to a few thoughts about
what is happening
with our cars, as well as some questions, that if we can
solve, will open
new performance doors for us.
One of the first things I
noticed is that Roger's dyno runs showed
that the car runs rich even at
14-15psi, on the stock fuel system). I knew
from my readings on the DSM
cars (my daily driver), that those cars simply
start "dumping" fuel when you
floor the throttle. My guess (as well as some
others) is that our cars
are doing the same thing. So why is Mits doing
this? Did they
feel that there was no point to metering the fuel after a
certain
point? I don't think that's why they did it. I think they
are
doing it because they are using the fuel to cool the combustion temps,
I'm
sure quite a few will agree with me. This is not to say that the
stock fuel
system is good to "a bazillion" psi. But I believe it
probably takes more
than most think for it to start running lean. Our
biggest problem (I
believe) is getting the temps under control.
So now for
the part a few of you have already asked me about. :)
How did I go about
trying to control the combustion temps? Water Injection.
I don't
believe I need to go into a lot of theory involved here, most of you
guys
have already done that. The theory has been around, it's been
debated.
A few are strong followers, a few believe it is not what it seems,
and most
don't know what they think about it. The one thing I did
notice, was that
those who advised against it (this is not inside this group,
but rather at
parts store sales guys, etc...), felt very strong, that it was
the wrong
way. Hmmm... Know what else I noticed? Those that were
so strongly against
it...had NEVER TRIED IT!!!! To me that kind of
discredited a lot of their
theory. The physics of water injection is
sound, meaning: it looks great on
paper. So know I believed it was down
to the application of it (where to
inject, what kind of mixture...). So
I tried it.
I bought a Spearco model 980 Water Injection System, and set it
up.
The reservoir is mounted in the front air dam and is filled with a 50/50
mix
of water and methyl alcohol, the pressure feed is tapped half way up
the
Y-pipe, and the injection nozzle is tapped in right after the elbow, as
the
air gets to the throttle body. My initial impression was
WOW!. I still had
my Blitz set at 14psi, and boy did the car pull
nice. I noticed
particularly that the power did not fall off at the
higher RPMs. I took the
car over to Curt Gendron's and he went for a
little ride. He too noticed
the absence of the high RPM power
loss. We decided to see what kind of
response it had to higher boost
levels. First 16psi,...nice. Then
17psi....even nicer. Then
18psi.....WOW does this thing haul! It was
final...I needed to get some
sort of knock indicator to confirm our "Butt
Dyno" and find the safety
zone.
I ordered a Autometer A/F gauge, and learned a little about how
the
O2 sensor acts at idle and no-load cruising :), as it is pretty
much
worthless unless you are on the gas. When you have the engine
under a good
load, it works fine, but at idle, or at a cruising load, it
bounces back and
forth between a little rich and a little lean. I also
solicited the help of
a electronics guru friend of mine to design a knock
sensor monitor. I
explained to him what exactly knock was, and showed
him oscilloscope
patterns of what knock looked like. He then helped me
design a monitor to
tap the knock sensor line and monitor it for knock.
After I got home, one
of our club members led me to a link about the boost
solenoid monitor used
by the 1st gen DSM cars. I decided that it was
simpler to do, so I tried
it. It didn't work. Back to my original
plan...I had to find a way to
connect this thing to the knock sensor line
without attenuating the signal,
so we spliced in a little capacitor on the
end of the signal lead and began
installing it into the car. After the
installation I had to play with the
sensitivity a bit to make it as sensitive
as I could get it without tripping
on simple engine noise, but now it is up
and running.
So what are my findings? Well, a little playing around
last night
found the car still runs a little rich at 18psi, and I had no
indication of
knock.
So what next? I have no plans of taking the car
to any higher
performance level (I know we all say that at some point), but I
believe our
biggest enemy is heat. An EGT gauge would be a nice
addition [Curt, I think
you should help me find a place for it!:) ]. I
don't think our heat
problems are coming from a lean mixture, but rather hot
intake charge and a
god-awful cramped engine bay. Perhaps the turbo's
in these cars can't vent
well enough. Now, don't take that to mean A/F
is not a concern to us, I
simply think it is not our biggest. Looking
at my A/F gauge (FWIW), it
looks like I could probably get to 19, maybe even
20psi before starting to
run lean.
One of our club members had an Eclipse
he ran 19psi on pump gas and
stock injectors!!! A little digging this
morning led me to even more people
doing that! How are those DSMs doing
it? Last night I learned that Brent
Rau, in Apple Valley, MN is running
30psi on his 2nd Gen DSM. I'm sure he
is using a beefy fuel system, and
I know he has one hell of an intercooler,
but damn that's a lot of
pressure. I think we should work on getting rid of
heat any and all
ways we can.
All in all, I believe we drive some of the best built cars in
the
world, and although the car made me VERY mad as I tried to find a place
to
mount the water tank, I am very glad I had the sense (and the cents!) to
buy
on of these engineering marvels.
- -John Basol
www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Boulevard/1027
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:41:23 +0200
From: Matthews <matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Header change? (admin question)
Dennis Moore wrote:
>
> Greetings,
>
> I noticed that the "reply-to" line on the
header is gone from all the
> messages I'm receiving from the list.
Can that be put back in, please?
> It makes it easier to send messages to
the list, including answering
> other members' queries.
>
>
Thanks.
>
> Dennis Moore
> stealth@kiva.net
As was announced in a
post a few weeks ago, the list server software was
reconfigured to change the
way replying to posts works. For months the
list has suffered from
frequent posts that were intended to be personal
replies but which were
erroneously (and at times embarrassingly) being
sent to the list as a new
post. Many of the popular Email tools make it
difficult to change the
address to that of just the sender. The way it
is set up now, you can
hit Reply to reply to the sender only, or hit
Reply to All to post to the
list. This also makes posting to the list a
more conscious decision and
seems to have eliminated some of the more
"fluff"-oriented posts. We
appreciate your understanding and hope you
find it easy to adjust to the
change. Thanx!
-Jim (admin, euro division!)
- --
Jim
Matthews - Wiesbaden, Deutschland
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de
(64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
***
3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet
Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active
Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0
bar @ 72% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Blitz Blow-Off
Valve
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix
brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, Top
Speed: 168mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
1 Feb
99 Dyno Session: 406 SAE HP, 354 lb-ft torque
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:41:09 EDT
From: TurboDrvn@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Insight from the new guy
In a message dated 6/18/99 10:24:48 AM Central
Daylight Time,
jbasol@Carlson.com
writes:
<< First off I would like to introduce myself. My
name is John Basol.
I am from Minneapolis, MN and drive a '95
RT/TT. I have just recently
started playing around with the
Stealth, as I have a different project car
that keeps me busy in the
garage most of time. I bought the Stealth in
February of this
year, found the 3SI (and consequently the MN chapter of
3SI) web sites,
and have gotten to hear about the trouble and tribulations
that some
people have experienced with the cars. By the time I got
around
to modifying mine I knew a couple of important things about what
was
happening with them. >>
Hi John Basol,
Now
THAT was an awesome post! Long yet kept my attention! First of
all, WELCOME aboard! sounds like you've achieved quite a bit!
Hope to one
day meet you! Are you guys going to join us for the
MIDWEST Gathering in
Cleveland, OHIO? The dates are set for July
23-25th. Hope you can make it!
Ahmed "AL-Crazy" - '92 VR4
GReddy Profec B boost controller, GReddy turbo timer, Apex'i sequential
b.o.v., SPI motorsport boost gauge & pillar pod, K&N filtercharger,
Alamo
Downpipe, Hi-flow cat, Borla exhaust, KVR Cross drilled rotors with
carbon
fiber pads, Nitto Power Extreme NT-555 (255/40/17's) tires, Eibach
springs &
Enkei RP-O1 17x9 (42mm offset) custom racing wheels (Springs
and wheels not
installed yet)
& 1987 Buick Grand National (way too
many mods to list)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:51:00 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: WI System (was : The life of a Minnesota 3/Ser)
Barry et
gang,
The Aquamist System2s will arrive next week at my home and I
already clarified all of Barrys questions (and much more) with the manufacturer.
As
this is ERL in the UK, communicating with them is much easier (and
cheaper over the phone)
Of course I'll report this modification very
detailed as this topic is not well understood. Of course, dyno data will be
delivered too :)
So please be patient and stay tuned
:)
Regards,
Roger
>> Soon, me and several other
"Minnesota 3/Sers" will be adding water
injection
>==========================================================================
>
>If
you have any information on the water injection systems used please share it
with
>the team. If you follow the list you know some bandwidth was devoted
to water injection.
>Some of the commercial systems look good but can get
pricey plus there are problems
>to overcome -
- -- pooling -
Pressure up to 10 bars and a the way to the TB provides the best
pooling
- -- where to inject - right after the intercoolers or somwhat
before the y-pipe
- -- filtering - stainless steel inline
microfilter
- -- etc. etc. - what ever you want to know
:))
__________________________
Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo
. going the wet way now !
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:56:09 -0500
From: "Matt Jannusch" <mattj@fallon.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Insight from the new guy
> One of our club members had an Eclipse he
ran 19psi on pump gas and
> stock injectors!!! A little digging this
morning led me to even
> more people
> doing that! How are
those DSMs doing it? Last night I learned that Brent
> Rau, in Apple
Valley, MN is running 30psi on his 2nd Gen DSM. I'm sure he
> is
using a beefy fuel system, and I know he has one hell of an
>
intercooler,
> but damn that's a lot of pressure. I think we should
work on
> getting rid of heat any and all ways we can.
I'm the one
running the 19psi Eclipse... 92-93 octane fuel was required,
but the
motor survived that much boost for well over a year in a very
hard-driven
daily driver. For some reason the DSM motors are more
detonation
resistant, but I don't understand the concepts of head design
enough to say
why that is (and have never seen inside the head on a 3/S
car). Brent's
car runs that high boost only on leaded race fuel. The
general
consensus with the DSM guys is that 18-19 psi is on the fringe for
those cars
on 92-93 octane fuel, and you need to have clean injectors and an
upgraded
fuel pump to do it (and preferably a high flowing exhaust). I used
a
Walbro pump with good results, and that same pump would probably have
enough
flow for a 3/S car (with the benefit of only being $100 versus the
exorbitant
$450 most vendors want for the usual 3/S upgrade pump).
One thing I
noticed recently while at the dragstrip is that the 3/S cars
don't seem to
have a lot of extra fuel pressure available at the fuel rail.
I took the fuel
tank return line off the rail, and ran a hose into a gas can
to catch the
fuel coming out, and the stream of fuel was almost just
dribbling out of the
line, where on my Eclipse I had to hold the hose
because the fuel is coming
out so forcefully at idle.
Perhaps the reason these cars are at 100% IDC
so early is because Mitsu
knows the fuel pump is lacking, so they just open
the floodgates as much as
they can, hoping the mixture will stay rich.
A better solution might be to
upgrade the fuel pump and reprogram the ECU to
not just dump as much fuel as
possible. Is this what JET does with
their ECU upgrades?
Is there an equation of how to figure out airflow at
certain RPM's versus
what the fuel flow requirement is to figure out whether
bigger injectors are
really needed at a certain boost pressure and
RPM?
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:35:44 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Insight from the new guy
Hey John,
Great you made it to
the list, you are very welcome :))
And congrats for getting the WI system
running properly. The Spearco is usually too small for engines with more than 2
litres and I'm happy to see
that it works anyways.
> 2) With a
modified fuel system, people were blowing pistons &
>rings when
pushing above 17-18psi on pump gas.
Well, depending on how much fuel they
dumped in. But it's definitievely true !
> One of the first things I
noticed is that Roger's dyno runs showed
>that the car runs rich even at
14-15psi, on the stock fuel system).
Yes, and with the AFC we were able
to increase it even more
>sure quite a few will agree with me.
This is not to say that the stock fuel
>system is good to "a bazillion"
psi. But I believe it probably takes more
>than most think for it to
start running lean.
Well the calculation for the injectors size is simple
and the outcome is that the stock 360 are at their end. But why is it possible
to run still rich at 15
psi ? This is possible because the stock fuel
pressure is already high and enough to provide the "needed" fuel to prevent our
enemy. IDC in Jims car
showed at least 90% during the run and the EGT in
Mikes car showed figures as high as 900°C. For sure the fuel dumped in was to
cool the stuff.
But increasing the fuel pressure (as it is increased when
boost rises) will finally result in a nother problem. The spray pattern and the
injector itself
may be damaged and it is very possible that they cannot be
closed anymore due to this. Even more, the ECU thinks that there is something
wrong
atih IDC close to 100% and initiates fuel cut.
>How did I go
about trying to control the combustion temps? Water
Injection.
Ahhh, I love to hear this :))
> Hmmm... Know what
else I noticed? Those that were so strongly against
>it...had NEVER
TRIED IT!!!!
Very true ! But Ford built the stuff into almost 4000
production cars ... I think they tried it first.
> I bought a Spearco
model 980 Water Injection System, and set it up.
Can you please provide
us with the technical details (flow, jets, pump, etc.) ?
>The
reservoir is mounted in the front air dam and is filled with a 50/50
mix
>of water and methyl alcohol
Hehe, do you know that the
european cars already have a reservoir in the bumper ? It is for the headlight
sprays taht are used three times a year.
Thanks, Mitsu... no need to search
another place :))
> the pressure feed is tapped half way up
the
>Y-pipe, and the injection nozzle is tapped in right after the elbow,
as the
>air gets to the throttle body.
Ok, maybe we have to give
the crowed more insight in the way the different systems work. If you can
provide me with the Spearco details I'm gonna
set up a homepage on this
topic so the many, many descriptions can be viewed.
> My initial
impression was WOW!. I still had my Blitz set at 14psi, and boy did the
car pull nice. I noticed
>particularly that the power did not fall
off at the higher RPMs.
Yes, with the air-injection the air got denser,
heat was absorbed and more power produced.
>response it had to higher
boost levels. First 16psi,...nice. Then
>17psi....even
nicer. Then 18psi.....WOW does this thing haul! It
was
>final...I needed to get some sort of knock indicator to confirm our
"Butt
>Dyno" and find the safety zone.
What about your heartbeat ?
Any chance to hook up a fuel pressure sensor, IDC, intake temperature, etc.
?
> After the installation I had to play with the
>sensitivity a
bit to make it as sensitive as I could get it without tripping
>on simple
engine noise, but now it is up and running.
Very good, as we discussed
offline this could be of benefit for all of us.
> So what are my
findings? Well, a little playing around last night
>found the car
still runs a little rich at 18psi, and I had no indication
of
>knock.
18 psi ... 1.24 bars ... this is close where fuel cut
normally is initiated. Have you looked at the dyno sheet on my problems page ?
18 psi give 467hp
DIN and although the dyno was too optimistic I'm pretty
sure that this are healthy 450hp !
> So what next? I have no
plans of taking the car to any higher
>performance level (I know we all
say that at some point), but I believe our
>biggest enemy is heat.
An EGT gauge would be a nice addition [Curt, I think
>you should help me
find a place for it!:) ].
Not a big problem as you can install it in the
front exhaust manifold right before the turbo flange. This is where Mike
(Germany) installed his.
> I don't think our heat problems are coming
from a lean mixture, but rather hot intake charge and a
>god-awful cramped
engine bay. Perhaps the turbo's in these cars can't vent well
enough.
Yes, indeed the intake temp is a problem. But please note that
the turbos are not efficient anymore in this high boost area. The blown air is
getting
much more higher compared to the pressure and also they cannot shed
the air that is really needed to produce some more horses. 15G would be
really great then. Also the intercoolers are not very efficient and I'll
measure all the temperatures on my next dyno session for sure (and also on the
street for real figures) !
>looks like I could probably get to 19,
maybe even 20psi before starting to
>run lean.
Yes, but how long
will the injectors last ??
>Rau, in Apple Valley, MN is running 30psi
on his 2nd Gen DSM. I'm sure he
>is using a beefy fuel system, and I
know he has one hell of an intercooler,
>but damn that's a lot of
pressure. I think we should work on getting rid of
>heat any and all
ways we can.
30 PSI ? No i doubt this, as the rings cannot withstand this
extreme pressure. Of course forged pistons and the best rings of the best are
neccessary
to do this.
John, I think the WI system from Spaerco is
pretty cheap and it seems to be a good solution. And if the knock monitor
doesn't show anything, A/F is
still in the rich region and finally the EGTs
are around 880°C the car is very healthy !! Great !
But as said, I think
the injectors are at their end and only time can tell this. As you don't run on
the track all day long and only boost up to 20 psi
every second day the
Densos may be still alive after a year or more. To go the safe way, I think
bigger injectors are a must.
Thanks for the
report,
Roger
__________________________
Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo
. going the wet way now !
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:07:59 -0700
From: Bruce Body <bbody@pacbell.net>
Subject: Team3S:
Wind Noise
I've been getting a lot of requests for the window alignment
scans.
Please request it from me by private email so we don't clutter up
the
list. I've sent out the file to everyone that's requested it up to
this
point.
Thanks,
Bruce
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 12:53:25 -0500
From: "Matt Jannusch" <mattj@fallon.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Insight from the new guy
> Hehe, do you know that the european cars
already have a reservoir
> in the bumper ? It is for the headlight sprays
taht are used
> three times a year.
> Thanks, Mitsu... no need to
search another place :))
If the Mitsu tank will hold pressure equal to
the amount of boost you plan
to run, then this is a sweet solution to where
to put the tank! The Spearco
tank gets pressurized to make it easier
for the pump to force the water
through the nozzle. I wonder how much
the tank would cost to purchase and
get it to the US?
> Not a big
problem as you can install it in the front exhaust
> manifold right before
the turbo flange. This is where Mike
> (Germany) installed his.
Has
anyone had a problem with the EGT probe tip coming off and going through
the
turbo? A few DSM guys had this problem. Any issues with putting
the
probe in the downpipe, other than the EGT's being a little lower due to
the
lost energy/heat being used by the turbo?
> 30 PSI ? No i doubt
this, as the rings cannot withstand this
> extreme pressure. Of course
forged pistons and the best rings of
> the best are neccessary to do
this.
Brent's Eclipse is very* far from stock, and I think he's using
TotalSeal
rings with some sort of forged pistons. His car is a very
extreme example,
not really directly related to this particular
discussion.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
EVC IV, Borla exhaust,
Alamo Downpipe, Blitz BOV, K&N
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 20:46:45 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Insight from the new guy
>If the Mitsu tank will hold pressure
equal to the amount of boost you plan
>to run, then this is a sweet
solution to where to put the tank! The
Spearco
>tank gets
pressurized to make it easier for the pump to force the water
>through the
nozzle. I wonder how much the tank would cost to purchase and
>get
it to the US?
Here are the main differences between those systems.
The ERL does not use
any pressurised tank as a strong pump pushes the water
through one or more
jets. The high pressure is needed to fully vaporize the
water as 1-2 bars is
somewhat low.
>Has anyone had a problem with
the EGT probe tip coming off and going
through
>the turbo? A few
DSM guys had this problem. Any issues with putting the
>probe in the
downpipe, other than the EGT's being a little lower due to the
>lost
energy/heat being used by the turbo?
There is more pressure infornt the
turbo (of course) and the appropriate
position for an EGT probe is at the
flame front. Just make sure that you
have a good EGT probe.
>>
30 PSI ?
>Brent's Eclipse is very* far from stock, and I think he's using
TotalSeal
>rings with some sort of forged pistons. His car is a very
extreme example,
>not really directly related to this particular
discussion.
Yes, the TotalSeals is the key together with the pistons !
Damn, how fast
would the 3S tranny go south with 30 psi
:))
Later,
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 21:07:02 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Pump, detonation, etc
>I'm the one running the 19psi
Eclipse... 92-93 octane fuel was required,
>but the motor survived
that much boost for well over a year in a very
>hard-driven daily
driver. For some reason the DSM motors are more
>detonation
resistant
Well, obviously this doesn't belong to the 3S :( Running still
on the rich
side, 93 octane fuel, 15 psi of boost and knock starts to retard
the timing.
>a Walbro pump with good results, and that same pump would
probably have
>enough flow for a 3/S car (with the benefit of only being
$100 versus the
>exorbitant $450 most vendors want for the usual 3/S
upgrade pump).
I agree 100% and do highly recommend it
!
>One thing I noticed recently while at the dragstrip is that the 3/S
cars
>don't seem to have a lot of extra fuel pressure available at the
fuel rail.
Fuel pressure is 43.5 psi (47.6 psi on NA), 34 psi at idle
(with hose on)
but it fluctates pretty fast compared to other cars
(GMs)
>Perhaps the reason these cars are at 100% IDC so early is
because Mitsu
>knows the fuel pump is lacking, so they just open the
floodgates as much as
>they can, hoping the mixture will stay rich.
A better solution might be to
>upgrade the fuel pump and reprogram the ECU
to not just dump as much fuel
as
>possible.
This is an
interesting theory !!
> Is this what JET does with their ECU
upgrades?
Jet is known just putting a sticker onto the microcontroller.
If anyone is
putting a daughterboard in it the fuel and ignition map will be
altered
>Is there an equation of how to figure out airflow at certain
RPM's versus
This equation is in my earlier post this week, but
...
>what the fuel flow requirement is to figure out whether bigger
injectors
are
>really needed at a certain boost pressure and
RPM?
... I haven't found more than the easy calculation between power and
the
injectors size. I will do more research on
this.
Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 15:32:17 -0500
From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Spearco
I gave Spearco a call, so I will try to answer a couple of
questions I have
been asked about the kit.
First off the guy didn't
have any flow data for me off the top of his head,
and he didn't seem like he
wanted to look it up for me either. Though I'm
sure that I can get this
data myself, if I take the time to test each one of
the nozzles. Keep
in mind the Spearco is a pressure dependant system, so
flow varries not only
with injector size, but pressure as well.
With reguards to the size of
our motors, he did say they sold a large number
to a few Supra clubs, which I
believe the Supra is a 3 liter as well. He
also said they have been
used a lot by the 3.8L Buick Grand National, as
well as 5.0L Mustangs.
Now, actually I have to side with Roger on this
thought though. For my
application the Spearco seemed like it would be OK,
and I didn't want to be
using a $600 system for experimenting. But, for
those that want to be
real serious abuot extracting power, the Aquamist
system from ERL looks top
notch. The stage 2 from ERL is a mappable system,
and is VERY
nice. For those looking for upper 400hp numbers I would have to
suggest
using one of the Auqamist systems.
I also asked Spearco about a group
purchase price. He was not specific
about the amount of the discount,
but said that if got at least 10 people to
order that he would give us a
break on them.
- -John Basol
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 13:43:43 -0700
From: Bruce Body <bbody@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Spearco
There are a few Grand National, Typhoons and Cyclones at
the track I run
at. Next week when I'm there I'll poke around and see what
info I can
find out for us on what they're using. They're running 24-28 lbs.
and
they're pulling low 11s to sub 10s in street
clothes.
Bruce
"Basol, John" wrote:
>
> I gave
Spearco a call, so I will try to answer a couple of questions I have
>
been asked about the kit.
>
> First off the guy didn't have any
flow data for me off the top of his head,
> and he didn't seem like he
wanted to look it up for me either. Though I'm
> sure that I can get
this data myself, if I take the time to test each one of
> the
nozzles. Keep in mind the Spearco is a pressure dependant system,
so
> flow varries not only with injector size, but pressure as
well.
>
> With reguards to the size of our motors, he did say they
sold a large number
> to a few Supra clubs, which I believe the Supra is a
3 liter as well. He
> also said they have been used a lot by the
3.8L Buick Grand National, as
> well as 5.0L Mustangs. Now, actually
I have to side with Roger on this
> thought though. For my
application the Spearco seemed like it would be OK,
> and I didn't want to
be using a $600 system for experimenting. But, for
> those that want
to be real serious abuot extracting power, the Aquamist
> system from ERL
looks top notch. The stage 2 from ERL is a mappable system,
> and is
VERY nice. For those looking for upper 400hp numbers I would have
to
> suggest using one of the Auqamist systems.
>
> I also
asked Spearco about a group purchase price. He was not specific
>
about the amount of the discount, but said that if got at least 10 people
to
> order that he would give us a break on them.
>
> -John
Basol
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 15:49 -0500
From: Jeff A Williamson <Jeff.A.Williamson@jci.com>
Subject:
Team3S: VR4 vs RX7 Turbo?
Sorry if this seems juvenile or has been
covered before, but I'm just an old
dog looking for some new tricks. Tell me
to shut-up and and I will, but there's
a guy at work that has a very sharp
looking Mazda RX7 Turbo, and he kinda wants
to give me a run for the fun,
but is a little intimidated with my VR4.
His car is a late model 3rd
generation rotary with the twin turbos. It has
Greddy exhaust and intake. No
other engine mods that he's admitted to, just a
turbo timer. It also has a
nice looking ground effects package with air vents
just in front of the rear
flared fenders, and a high wing on the back. I
haven't seen one quite like
this before. Mine is a 1st generation VR4 with HKS
Intake & Exhaust with
no cats, EVCIV Boost Controller, and SBOV.
In a couple of 0-100
runs, will one of us be embarrassed, or will it be at all
close? I seem to
remember reading somewhere that the RX7 Turbos were extremely
quick to 60
mph. What do you think?
Jeff.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 23:19:03 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Spearco (incl. Links)
>First off the guy didn't have any flow
data for me off the top of his head,
>and he didn't seem like he wanted to
look it up for me either. Though I'm
>sure that I can get this data
myself, if I take the time to test each one
of
>the
nozzles.
Isn't there anything written in the installation manual or so
?My concern is
that the lower the pressure the water is beeing injected the
less is the
vaporization. And if the water drops are getting too big, severe
damage or
at least extended wear to the valves and ports can be the
result
> Keep in mind the Spearco is a pressure dependant system,
so
>flow varries not only with injector size, but pressure as
well.
My concern is that the lower the pressure the water is beeing
injected the
less is the vaporization. And if the water drops are getting too
big, severe
damage or at least extended wear to the valves and ports can be
the result.
Maybe this is the cause why the nozzle is installed just right
before the TB
and not after the intercooler like with the ERL
system.
>With reguards to the size of our motors, he did say they sold
a large
number
>to a few Supra clubs, which I believe the Supra is a 3
liter as well. He
>also said they have been used a lot by the 3.8L
Buick Grand National, as
>well as 5.0L Mustangs.
This is
interesting, as my Supra buddy and a Cyclone guy told me that some
people who
already have WI finally upgraded to the ERL systems as the
pressure was too
low to feed the proper amount of water. And with a starting
price of GBP 300
(System 1S with race pump) I think the ERL stuff isn't that
expensive for
what you get ! The System 1 is a simple spray system that is
activated by a
pressure switch. Activated at 12 psi it sprays a specific
amount per minute.
The amount is choosen by the size of the nozzle but the
pressure is always
the same (and is pretty high !!)
>and I didn't want to be using a $600
system for experimenting. But, for
>those that want to be real
serious abuot extracting power, the Aquamist
>system from ERL looks top
notch. The stage 2 from ERL is a mappable
system,
>and is VERY
nice.
Yes, I ordered the System2s (with race pump). Additionally I
already have
the 3bar MAP sensors that can simply be attached and this will
make the
system 3D mappable. The water flow will be controlled by an external
valve
that is connected to the MAF2 electronics. This thing can also act as
an
injector drive r for anyone who wants to tap into the intake plenum
:)
>I also asked Spearco about a group purchase price.
I also
spoke with ERL about this and they agreed to get us a discount of up
to 25%
if we can get more than 20 people. Unfortunately, I had to pay the
full price
:(
BTW, here's a link to a compilation on some good articles and
pictures of
the Spearco kit :
http://www.ns.net/~sirmike/MR2/Water.html
Btw,
there should be some posts of me in the archives since last November.
For
sure I cleaned up my sent directory since then.
For me, it's great to
hear such good things about WI from you running the
Spearco and I'm sure it's
able to help to crank boost up to get 450 wild
ponies out of the thing
without the danger to kill something. THnaks for
being a "Guinea Pig" for us
:))
Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT rain = open hood to
fill up container :))
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:31:00 -0500
From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Spearco (incl. Links)
> Isn't there anything written in the
installation manual or so ?My concern
> is
> that the lower the
pressure the water is beeing injected the less is the
> vaporization. And
if the water drops are getting too big, severe damage or
> at least
extended wear to the valves and ports can be the result
>
The info
that was in the manual was the physical size of the hole in
the injector, I
think the one I am using is .025". When tested the system
prior to it's
first engine on run, I did notice that the spray is a very
fine mist, but
excatly how fine is enough, I don't know.
> This is interesting, as my
Supra buddy and a Cyclone guy told me that some
> people who already have
WI finally upgraded to the ERL systems as the
> pressure was too low to
feed the proper amount of water. And with a
> starting
> price of
GBP 300 (System 1S with race pump) I think the ERL stuff isn't
>
that
> expensive for what you get ! The System 1 is a simple spray system
that is
> activated by a pressure switch. Activated at 12 psi it sprays a
specific
> amount per minute. The amount is choosen by the size of the
nozzle but the
> pressure is always the same (and is pretty high
!!)
>
If I choose to go any farther with the modifications to my car,
the
ERL system will definately be one of the next steps.
> I also
spoke with ERL about this and they agreed to get us a discount of
>
up
> to 25% if we can get more than 20 people. Unfortunately, I had to pay
the
> full price :(
>
Kick butt! This means it will be
cheaper for me to upgrade! :)
Wait a minute, didn't I say I wasn't
going to do any more upgrades.... :)
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:47:14 -0500
From: "Matt Jannusch" <mattj@fallon.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Insight from the new guy
> Here are the main differences between those
systems. The ERL does not use
> any pressurised tank as a strong pump
pushes the water through one or more
> jets. The high pressure is needed
to fully vaporize the water as
> 1-2 bars is somewhat low.
Hmm, I
think we want the water to be atomized, but not vaporized by
the
sprayer. I think that's what you meant. We want it to be
vaporized by the
heat of the intake charge so the intake temps are
reduced.
I like what the ERL system offers in the way of control, but at
5 times the
price I think I'll go with the Spearco if it works well enough
for the
street.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
End
of Team3S Digest V1 #209
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