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Subject:
Team3S Digest V1 #207
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Team3S Digest
Wednesday, June 16 1999 Volume
01 : Number
207
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:59:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Dennis G. Bretton " <dbretton@cs.uml.edu>
Subject:
Team3S: Sever Handling problem
Hello all,
Well, I
have not posted this problem to the Team3S list yet, so let's
see what I can
fish out of your collective knowledge. :)
I have a 93 Stealth, SOHC (I'll
wait till you stop chuckling....), and for
the past 8 months (!!) I have had,
what I would call, a severe handling
problem with the vehicle.
Let me
describe the problem.
The car has develope 3 bad
characteristics:
1) There exists an excessive amount
of body roll in the car when
cornering. This is noticeable in all
speeds. (Ed Fein got the back end
to break out at the October Quickeing
last year)
2) The steering in the vehicle is less
responsive than it used to be.
You are all famaliar with the "point it and it
just goes there" handling
of these vehicles. Now, however, it seems
that there is a delay between
when I turn the wheel and when it begins to
move in that direction.
Though not long (perhaps .1-.2 seconds), it is
noticeable. This behavior
is much more noticeable at higher
speeds.
3) The vehicle "wanders", for lack of a better
word, on the road.
This wandering behavior is directly proportional to the
speed of the
vehicle, as I have noticed the vehicle tends to move about more
and more
at higher speeds. I no longer feel safely in control of the
vehicle over
100 (not that I go this fast typically). As an example, I
was getting on
the highway yesterday (no one around) and decided to let go of
the
steering wheel. Without the wheel moving (still straight), the
vehicle
traversed all 3 lanes pretty quickly! (whoa!) This is
bad...
Now I suspect that all 3 of these characteristics are
intrinsically tied
together. For example, when driving down the
highway, I can detect a
slight amount of body roll just before the car begins
to "wander".
Also, I can feel each corner of the vehicle absorbing bumps
and road
hazards independently of one another, whereas before I could only
feel
the "front" or "back" handling the hazard. That is, it seems like
the
front struts and rear shocks are no longer acting together.
Before
you read on, I hope you can postulate on what the possible causes
of this
are.
Okay, now onto what has been done to the
car.
Before the car began to act up, I had a leaky front struts.
Since I was
needed a new strut, I decided to replace the struts/shocks all
the way
around. While I was at it, I replaced the tires as well.
The newer ones
are only 20mm wider on the foot and 5% narrower on the
sidewall.
In addition, my mechanic noticed that my right front CV Joint
boot was
gone (completely). He looked at it, and said it still looked
good, but
just needed a litle more grease. So he greased it up and but
a new boot
on it.
The problem began 6,000 miles (almost exactly) after
I had this work done
to the car. The behavior change was instantly
noticeable, and just has
become progressively worse.
I have had a
couple of different dealerships look at it, and could not
find anything
wrong. However, I trust them about as far as I could
throw
them.
Just as an FYI, I have had the tires rotated and balanced
every 5,000
miles, and have had an alignment performed twice.
I know
that there are several possibilities here (tires, bad
struts/shocks, improper
installation, CV joint), but I am at a loss on
several points here, as I am
not certain what to look for to see if these
things are "bad", per
se.
Ed Fein suggested that I replace the struts or get some lowering
springs,
and, hoefully, this will alleviate things. However, he warned
that this
might mask the problem, which is my concern.
Right now, I am
replacing the following 3 things on my car:
springs with Ground
Control springs
front struts with GABs
wheels
with 17" wheels (were 15")
By replacing these components, I hope I will
"fix" things. However, I am
concerned that I will be "masking" a
problem...
Phew! My fingers hurt!
So, can anyone help me
out on this I would greatly appreciate it!
Regards,
Dennis
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:04:30 EDT
From: TurboDrvn@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Strut
bushing?
Hi all,
I am trying to "unseize" my driver's side rear
strut; I am afraid of
blow-torching it because I may melt away the rubber
bushing located at the
bottom end of the strut. Can we get bushings
from Mitsubishi or any other
aftermarket company? I already tried
Mitsubishi (they said the whole strut
comes as one piece!) and already
attempted with Energy Suspension (they do
NOT make bushing parts for our
cars as of yet).
Any feedback would be greatly
appreciated.
Thank you!
Ahmed "AL-Crazy" - '92 VR4
GReddy Profec B boost controller, GReddy turbo timer, Apex'i sequential
b.o.v., SPI motorsport boost gauge & pillar pod, K&N filtercharger,
Alamo
Downpipe, Hi-flow cat, Borla exhaust, KVR Cross drilled rotors with
carbon
fiber pads, Nitto Power Extreme NT-555 (255/40/17's) tires, Eibach
springs &
Enkei RP-O1 17x9 (42mm offset) custom racing wheels (Springs
and wheels not
installed yet).
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 15 Jun 1999 16:25:28 -0700
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Strut bushing?
Ahmed...
Well, I ended up having to do
that when I changed my springs. I had the same
concern, but after spraying
with every compound under the sun (and pounding
the heck out of the nut with
a breaker bar and socket), we gave up and took
a torch to it. Amazingly
enough, the rubber didn't melt, but it did break
loose. All I can say is, I
sure was glad I had it on a rack. I can't imagine
doing that from on my
back.
Looking forward...Chris
- -----Original
Message-----
From: TurboDrvn@aol.com
[mailto:TurboDrvn@aol.com]
Sent:
Tuesday, June 15, 1999 4:05 PM
To: stealth@starnet.net; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Team3S: Strut bushing?
Hi all,
I am trying to "unseize" my
driver's side rear strut; I am afraid of
blow-torching it because I may
melt away the rubber bushing located at the
bottom end of the strut.
Can we get bushings from Mitsubishi or any other
aftermarket company?
I already tried Mitsubishi (they said the whole strut
comes as one piece!)
and already attempted with Energy Suspension (they do
NOT make bushing parts
for our cars as of yet).
Any feedback would be greatly
appreciated.
Thank you!
Ahmed "AL-Crazy" - '92 VR4
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 15 Jun 1999 20:11:06 -0700
From: Joe Gonsowski <twinturbo@mediaone.net>
Subject:
Team3S: EVC III programming questions
I decided that my turbo & head
rebuilds, new plugs and wires, cleaned
intercooler hard pipes and
intercoolers all add up to enough potential
performance change that I should
reset the EVC memory so it can relearn
the boost curve. The following
questions are asked because something
went wrong, I no longer hold boost to
the desired level.
A few questions on the HKS EVCIII:
1) First a
general question. The three WOT runs from 1,000 rpm were
done at stock
boost levels (is stock boost something you control by
setting the EVC before
erasing its memory?). Does this learning process
also optimize the
boost control for when your running higher than stock
boost? Is there
an issue with frequent changing of the high and low
settings? Example,
say I keep the low setting at .64 bars (9.3 psi) and
the high at 1.04 bars
(15.1 psi) but occassionally set the high at 1.24
bars (18.0 psi) when at the
track with high octane. In each case, will
it take time for the EVC to
learn the new boost setting or will it be
ready to go just as quick as I can
set it?
2) While going through my three self learning mode runs (in 2nd
gear)
the EVC would beep indicating it was done well before I climbed
very
high in the rpm range. Would it be better if I started at a higher
rpm
so I'd reach at least 4,000 to 5,000 rpm before it beeps?
3)
Once I completed the three runs (under IDENTICAL conditions) I
settled in and
put it to the test. With .64 bars (~9.3 psi) entered
into the EVC I
eased into the throttle in 3rd gear on the highway
watching the boost gage
come up on 9, hold for about a second then
continue on to 17 psi. I've
got fuel upgrades that can handle the
higher boost, but that's not the
point. Question is, if I run the car
enough times, will the boost
controller learn how to handle my setup or
do I need to re-perform the self
learning process?
Other settings (besides high and low boost) are offset
(100), scramble
boost and time (0 & 0), and overboost (1.31
bars).
This is more of a statement than a quesiton, but please correct me
if
I'm wrong. The VPC & EVC act completely independently of each
other,
i.e. the VPC delivers fuel based on what it reads in the intake and
not
what the EVC reads or is set at. The VPC and EVC are two
completely
independent systems.
Thanks, I know this was a lot of
questions, but I'll be happy if even a
few are answered.
Joe
Gonsowski
'92 RT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 15 Jun 1999 17:21:15 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Severe Handling problem (long answer).
Hey,
Dennis,
Probably everyone will agree that it sounds like multiple
problems
here, but since I'm among the few SOHC drivers on the list
('94
Stealth), I'll see if I can point you in a good direction (no pun)
:-)
... The first thing I know I can help with is the tires
and
inflation, similar to another I posted recently. The FWDs
in
particular have a pretty strong tendency to understeer, and
the
solution to that (for me) was from an old post on Starnet a couple
of
years ago (by Katri, who used to race an SOHC)-- eliminate
the
understeer by making the fronts more "nimble" relative to the
rears
with a 6 LB differential instead of the recommended 3 LB...
making
the rears "drag" a bit, as it were, by the added rolling resistance
of
relatively softer tires. I too have 'fat' performance tires (10"
wide
footprint, 16" DOHC wheels instead of the stock 15"), and not
only
will they "track" at recommended pressure (they will catch grooves
in
the road, and lines between pavement sections, and pull the car
all
over the road), but the car will wallow as you describe, as well.
The
car will feel more like an ATV than a sports car...
TRY THIS!:
inflate the fronts to 46, and the rears to 40 instead of
the ridiculous 32/29
or whatever it is...; reduce that by 4 lbs all
around after a few days of
driving, and then another 4 lbs until you
find a setting that feels
good. But start that high!!! You may find
(like I did) that that
extreme setting makes the car handle best. (I
also took Katri's advice
and added a -1 degree camber in front). You
won't believe the
difference! And yes, your tires will wear out
faster, but who
cares?! Harder tires will also give you a better top
end, but slower
starts off the line, since you've got less rubber on
the road. Again, a
fair trade-off for better control and SAFETY!!!
A related issue is that
our cars have a 3 level computer controlled
steering assist, which is
strongest for parking (tires angled a lot)
and weakest at speed (tires in a
straight line). You'll see the logic
that if something pulls your tires
at an angle, the assist will try to
"help" them do so, in effect trying to
help you around a sudden
obstacle, or, throw you into the gully when there's
something else
(like "tracking") pulling your tires out of straight.
Reducing the
tracking will also somewhat alleviate this steering assist
problem.
The time delay you're experiencing could well be the assist
"kicking
in" when you don't want it...
Let us know how you make out
with "Phase I - how to drive in a
straight line"
:-)
Regards,
Forrest
- -----Original Message-----From:
Dennis G. Bretton
<dbretton@cs.uml.edu>
|Hello
all,
|
| Well, I have not posted this problem to the Team3S
list yet, so
let's
|see what I can fish out of your collective knowledge.
:)
|
|I have a 93 Stealth, SOHC (I'll wait till you stop
chuckling....),
and for
|the past 8 months (!!) I have had, what I would
call, a severe
handling
|problem with the vehicle.
|
|Let me
describe the problem.
|
|The car has develope 3 bad
characteristics:
|
| 1) There exists an excessive amount
of body roll in the car when
|cornering. This is noticeable in all
speeds. (Ed Fein got the back
end
|to break out at the October
Quickeing last year)
|
| 2) The steering in the vehicle
is less responsive than it used to
be.
|You are all famaliar with the
"point it and it just goes there"
handling
|of these vehicles. Now,
however, it seems that there is a delay
between
|when I turn the wheel and
when it begins to move in that direction.
|Though not long (perhaps .1-.2
seconds), it is noticeable. This
behavior
|is much more noticeable
at higher speeds.
|
| 3) The vehicle "wanders", for lack
of a better word, on the road.
|This wandering behavior is directly
proportional to the speed of the
|vehicle, as I have noticed the vehicle
tends to move about more and
more
|at higher speeds. I no longer
feel safely in control of the vehicle
over
|100 (not that I go this fast
typically). As an example, I was
getting on
|the highway yesterday
(no one around) and decided to let go of the
|steering wheel. Without
the wheel moving (still straight), the
vehicle
|traversed all 3 lanes
pretty quickly! (whoa!) This is bad...
|
|Now I suspect that all 3
of these characteristics are intrinsically
tied
|together. For
example, when driving down the highway, I can detect a
|slight amount of body
roll just before the car begins to "wander".
|
|Also, I can feel each
corner of the vehicle absorbing bumps and road
|hazards independently of one
another, whereas before I could only
feel
|the "front" or "back" handling
the hazard. That is, it seems like
the
|front struts and rear shocks
are no longer acting together.
|
|Before you read on, I hope you can
postulate on what the possible
causes
|of this are.
|
-
-------------mods snipped----------
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 15 Jun 1999 17:33:44 -0700
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Tire Report
Just to relay some info(got new tires 2 weeks
ago):
Old Tires: Goodyear Eagle RS-A 225/55/HR16
Rims: stock
16x8
Mileage: about 30,000
Tread when replaced: 2/32" Rear, 0"
Front
(due to tire smoking and 180 practice party :)
New Tires:
Firestone Firehawk SZ50 245/50/ZR16
Rims: stock 16x8
Price: $160 each at
local Firestone
Verdict: Holy cool tires, Batman!
Linear Traction:
Much Better
Lateral Traction: Better
Dry Traction: Better
Wet Traction:
Amazingly Better
Road Noise: Much Quieter
Ride Comfort: Smoother
(?!?)
Rubbing on Suspension: None at all
My squeal point on must exit
ramps is increased by 5-10mph in most cases. I
can almost drive at the same
traction limits in the wet as I can in the dry
(big difference from old
tires). I don't quite understand the lower road
noise and smoother
feel, but hey, I'm not complaining:) We'll see how long
they last and
how they perform over time, but as of now, I definitely
recommend
them.
- --Erik
-
------
----------
Erik
Gross
DuPont, WA
'95 Pearl White 3000GT 55k mi
-
------
----------
"To believe in the supernatural is not simply to believe that
after living a successful, material, and fairly virtuous
life
here one will continue to exist in the best-possible
substitute for
this world, or that after living a starved
and stunted life here one
will be compensated with all the
good things one has gone without: it
is to believe that the
supernatural is the greatest reality here and
now."
--T. S. Eliot
-
-------------------------------------------------------------
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:25:32 +0100
From: robby@freesurf.ch
Subject: Re: Team3S:
EVC III programming questions
> 2) While going through my three self
learning mode runs (in 2nd gear)
> the EVC would beep indicating it was
done well before I climbed very
> high in the rpm range. Would it be
better if I started at a higher
> rpm so I'd reach at least 4,000 to 5,000
rpm before it beeps?
AFAIK (and I'm not the expert on the EVC) the
controller stops learning
when the boost curve flattens out. This happens
right after 3k and boost
does stay constant then. But it needs several runs
until the proper
curve without too much overbosot is created.
>
With .64 bars (~9.3 psi)....
> watching the boost gage come up on 9, hold
for about a second then
> continue on to 17 psi.
Why is this ?? We
already learned that the EVCs jump over the boost that
has been set but this
is definitely too high !??
> The VPC & EVC act completely
independently of each other,
> i.e. the VPC delivers fuel based on what it
reads in the intake and
> not what the EVC reads or is set at. The
VPC and EVC are two
> completely independent systems.
Your
statement is absolutely correct !
Cheers,
Roger
93'3000GT
TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 16 Jun 1999 07:51:42 -0400
From: Kevin Schappell <kevin@pacarsearch.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Crank it up !!
Well I have changed all my fluids and determined
that the 60,000 mile
service was done on my car by the previous owner so I
am ready to turn up
the boost. I ordered the Blitz SSBC and dual turbo
timer from Summit
today. Is there anything I need to know about the
SSBC? Should I have
ordered the DSBC? I am not planning on going
over 1.0 bar since reading a
few websites warning against it. I am
really interested in setting up the
low mode to improve city driving.
It always feels like the car is ready to
take off driving around the city
and really is annoying. You know what I
mean, you really feel the
turbo kick in. Really the power curve is not
linear and makes driving
around town just a little annoying. Has anyone
tried setting their low
setting at say 6 psi (~.42 bar) ? Does it improve
drivability? I am
sure it would improve engine and turbo life. Also any
suggestions on
hiding the boost controller incase of warrenty
service?
Thanks,
Kevin Schappell
Auto Answers
http://www.pacarsearch.com
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 16 Jun 1999 14:44:47 +0100
From: robby@freesurf.ch
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Crank it up !!
> Well I have changed all my fluids and determined that
the 60,000 mile
> service was done on my car by the previous owner so I am
ready to turn
> up
Good start :)
> Is there
anything I need to know about the SSBC? Should I have
> ordered the
DSBC? I am not planning on going over 1.0 bar since
The SSBC is
REALLY the cheapest EBC on the market and it works. But it
lacks from some
safety and tuning features including the boost meter.
Ok, you have it in the
dual timer and therefore do not need it there.
Also the SSBC uses one of the
small solenoids of the DSBC and the thing
is pretty small for two
wastegates. The DSBC is definitely worth the
more money and I'd get this
guy. But please also note that the DSBC is
not easily to tune in and needs
more manual work than other good
controllers (I'd install the Apexi S-AVCR
in your car, fire and forget)
It is good not to boost up more than 1 bars
or say 14-15 psi as
detonation occurs pretty soon after this without dumping
more fuel into
the chambers.
> low mode to improve city
driving.
The question is that on what rpms you drive around in the city.
The full
boost is there from around 3000rpm and if you drive around at 2000
than
you have the same power as an NT car but with additional weight ! Then
more power will become available around 2500 and power/tourque is rising
fast.
> Really the power curve is not linear and makes driving
around town
> just a little annoying.
The "turbo kick" will be
even more improved by cranking up boost as the
power kicks in more drastic
compared to stock and peak torque is higher
and shifted up to the upper rpm
area.
> Has anyone tried setting their low setting at say 6 psi (~.42
bar) ?
This is stock on my 93'3k and as I had to detune everything for
the gov.
test I drove it for a few days like this. Damn, I felt like sitting
in a
New Beetle and I was close to put the "slow turtle" sticker on the car
:( Guess how fast the BC was reconnected. The driveabilty was and is
good in any circumstances.
If you want to improve engine and turbo
life .. cancel your order now.
If you don't want to hurt anything but want
to have a good power under
your back, don't go over 1 bar of boost and enjoy
:) Increasing boost
makes the car more acting like a wild pony. Sometimes
when driving on
the highway and lifting the cruise control lever to resume
to the
previeous set speed, the car starts to walk away like you'd give full
throttle and as it reaches the speed it acts pretty rude. This because
the cruise control doesn't know that there is more boost and acts
"normal". Not a big deal but a changement in driveablity :)
>
suggestions on hiding the boost controller incase of warrenty
service?
Use a velcro tape and mount it inside the armrest. Unhooking
it keeps
the valve staying open and the car acts like stock. Null problemo
!
BTW, don't forget to regap the plugs. This is some more work but worth
the hassle !
Good luck
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:53:04 +0100
From: robby@freesurf.ch
Subject: Team3S: New
Apexi S-AFC (Air fuel controller)
Maybe this is somewhat old information,
but have a look at :
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/newafc.htm
Roadrace
Engineering had a chance to try this thing out and made a good
review of it.
Additionally, there is some good information (basic and
advanced) on the
same page about fuel control, knock, EGT,
etc.
Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 16 Jun 1999 06:59:12 -0700
From: Bruce Body <bbody@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: fuel system upgrades
> I don't want to go back into the "stock
turbo" discussion but the 9Bs can
> produce more than 1.25 bars of boost.
And this is definitely enough to go
> into the mid 12 or even lower when
the car looses some weight. IMHO the pump
> should be upgraded at first
(get the biggest Walbro pump, good flow, good
> price). You can then
increase fuel pressure with an AFPR but be careful not
> to damage the
fuel injectors. Monitoring the IDC is definitely necessary
>
here.
Do you know about when these discussions took place? I am up to
Dec. 31
in the archives and haven't found it yet. I'm starting to think the
shop
I'm talking with doesn't know our cars that well after all. They
still
insist the stock injectors will handle 17 lbs. boost with only
pump,
AFPR and FMIC.
> If the wallet allows it, you should
invest in the bigger injectors. For 1/4
> mile purposes an AFC works fine
(maybe the new one even better) to tune the
> ECU in. But I also would say
monitoring the EGT, O2 sensors (of course) is
> necessary.
The way
I'm reading, the ECU will control larger injectors at less than
WOT, is this
correct? Thus the AFC, etc. is only used at the upper
rpms.
Thanks,
Bruce
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:50:32 +0100
From: robby@freesurf.ch
Subject: Re: Team3S:
fuel system upgrades
> Do you know about when these discussions took
place?
Umpf, I just remember a long discussion about "1/4 mile time with
stock
turbos" and such stuff. Dunno exactly when it was. Anyways, doing the
proper fuel upgrades and preventing any detonation the stock turbos last
pretty long :)
> I'm starting to think the shop I'm talking with
doesn't know our cars
> that well after all. They still insist the stock
injectors will handle
> 17 lbs. boost with only pump, AFPR and
FMIC.
This is easy, just ask them what the IDC is around 15 psi (will be
over
90%) Also ask them what IDC is dangerous or at least not good for the
injectors (over 90%) Finally ask them what happens at 99%-100% IDC (fuel
cut)
You can run higher boost with a lower temperature of the intake
air as
this will lower the knock sensitivity. But there is still some fuel
needed to gain the desired energy and the stock Inj. can not deliver it.
> The way I'm reading, the ECU will control larger injectors at
less
> than WOT, is this correct? Thus the AFC, etc. is only used at the
> upper rpms.
The S-AFC in particular is not throttle related but
rpm based. This
means an AFC intercepts the signal comming from the MAS and
alters the
frequency or voltage level that then goes into the ECU.
Therefore, if
you install bigger injectors, you can reduce the given
frequency to
"lean" out the mixture. An ECU alone cannot compensate for
bigger
injectors as the parameters stored in the table just doesn't make any
sense then and this results in an extreme rich mixture. Not to mention
that your car will get "drunk" at idle at dies pretty quick.
Leaning
the stuff out with an AFC let's the ECU think everything is
still ok and
you're getting a good fuel map choosen within the ECU :)
The range is in
steps allover the rpm band and works like a parametric
equalizer.
Although the S-AFC is not the best solution as it works as
an rpm-based
fine tuning but it's ok to adapt for bigger injectors (say
560cc max).
The ECU finally makes the adjustments on its fuel map then to
get the
best out of the engine. With this you are able to lean it out in the
lower and mid area to gain some good power and to richen the mixture in
the power region (5400-5600) to prevent detonation by just dumping fuel
into the chambers (I hate this waste !)
17 psi or almost 1.2kg/cm2
(or 1.17 bars) is definitely too much for the
stock injectors. You can maybe
have a short peak up to 1.1 bars or so
but I'd not do this anyways. On the
dyno, we saw the car running on the
rich side and slowly increased boost. At
around 1.05bars the power
decreased due to the timing that got more and more
retarded. But the
injectors where at around 90% then and increasing the fuel
to prevent
the detonation would cause a higher IDC then. On an earlier
dyno-session
we tuned the AFC in and we tried to enrichen it but went into
fuel cut
at 1.1 bars :( ... not good on the dyno.
As I mentioned in
my earlier post, increasing the fuel pressure also
increases the flow and
one will see a 360cc injector flowing 400cc then.
Ask them about this and
when they can give you the numbers your
injectors will flow and the desired
fuel pressure and a warranty that
the injectors do not get damaged ... then
why not trying this out ? It
would be interesting to see how much less
the IDC will become with each
psi fuel pressure is being increased and how
much the pressure can be
increased without degrading the spray pattern and
killing the longevity
of them.
As a conclusion, I think if one is
doing an upgrade to the fuel system
then he should do the stuff that is
related together : pump, injectors,
control (ECU, AFC, etc.). The cost for
injectors and a control device
will be close or higher as a FMIC but I think
this is the right step in
going forward. The FMIC is then good for the very
next step to reduce
the amount of fuel that is currently wasted to cool the
chamber.
Let us know what they tell you
:)
Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT
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------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:51:53 -0700
From: "Dave Allison" <dallison@siebel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: fuel system upgrades
Bruce,
UPRD told me the same thing
when I went there. They told me that our
cars don't hit fuel cut until 17lbs
of boost. This might be so, but my
understanding of the term 'fuelcut' made
me take their advice with a grain
of salt. On DSM cars, which UPRD is very
familiar with, fuelcut is triggered
by the ECU when a predetermined level of
air is being drawn into the intake.
This predetermined level is VERY
conservative in stock form on the DSMs and
Mitsubishi sets it at such a low
level for reliability purposes. Supposedly,
even on stock turbos they can get
fuelcut if it's cold enough. The point
is... the fuelcut level on DSMs are so
low at stock, that detonation is
impossible to reach without first bumping
your head on the fuelcut limiter.
So in the minds of techs who work on DSMs,
fuelcut is the first obstacle
they encounter.
With our cars it's a
different story. We may very well get fuelcut
at 17, but the fuelcut is being
triggered by too much air being ingested.
WELL BEFORE THIS POINT, we are
experiencing detonation in our cars due to
the temperature of the intake
charge. Set your boost to 17 and you'll get
your fuelcut as they advertise,
but I'd guess you'd also get severe
detonation while your engine is running
between 15 and 17 lbs. of boost.
According to Roger Gerl's experiences, the
ECU does not detect the high rpm
detonation quickly enough to retard timing
and save the engine.
Unfortunately, our weakest link is NOT fuelcut...
it's detonation.
Seeya!
Dave Allison
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Bruce Body [mailto:bbody@pacbell.net]
Sent:
Wednesday, June 16, 1999 6:59 AM
To: R.G.
Cc: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Re: Team3S: fuel system upgrades
> I don't want to go back into
the "stock turbo" discussion but the 9Bs can
> produce more than 1.25 bars
of boost. And this is definitely enough to go
> into the mid 12 or even
lower when the car looses some weight. IMHO the
pump
> should be
upgraded at first (get the biggest Walbro pump, good flow, good
> price).
You can then increase fuel pressure with an AFPR but be careful
not
>
to damage the fuel injectors. Monitoring the IDC is definitely necessary
>
here.
Do you know about when these discussions took place? I am up to
Dec. 31
in the archives and haven't found it yet. I'm starting to think the
shop
I'm talking with doesn't know our cars that well after all. They
still
insist the stock injectors will handle 17 lbs. boost with only
pump,
AFPR and FMIC.
> If the wallet allows it, you should
invest in the bigger injectors. For
1/4
> mile purposes an AFC works
fine (maybe the new one even better) to tune
the
> ECU in. But I also
would say monitoring the EGT, O2 sensors (of course) is
>
necessary.
The way I'm reading, the ECU will control larger injectors at
less than
WOT, is this correct? Thus the AFC, etc. is only used at the upper
rpms.
Thanks,
Bruce
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