--
From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
(Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Team3S Digest V1 #205
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Errors-To:
owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Precedence:
bulk
Team3S
Digest Sunday, June 13
1999 Volume 01 : Number
205
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 12 Jun 1999 23:55:05 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Killed the Honking Goose (Kinda Long)
>No but I saw them. It
looked like a channel that diverted the return into
each side of
>the
intake. Not really tubes. More of a flat Y shaped channel. I didn't see
any
easy way
>to remove it.
All, the small Y-shaped channel in the
BPV upward path is just a plug. You
can push it from the bottom (BPV side)
and slide it out through the MAS
connection hole. I tried it and had nothing
bad due to this but I also never
had the hooting problem :)
>>
Just make sure that it will not pop-off under full boost rise
!!
>
>The intake side was only about 1/8" smaller than stock. I got
a very good
grip on it. I
>don't expect any problems. The IC side was
same diameter as stock.
Good, the IC side is what counts.
>I
would think that if I can get it to leak with just mouth pressure, it
would
have to
>also bleeding off some boost to the intake??
I know what
you mean and I had the same thoughts at the beginning. But the
hole is very
small and I'd not say that it leaks (i.e. the valve not closing
fully) as it
is designed that way. My experience is that this smothens the
behaivour under
medium load like with cruise control engaged. Also note that
with the stock
wastegate actuator valve almost the same amount of pressure
is bled to the
intake due to its design. The drop was not measurable
:)
Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 12 Jun 1999 12:13:20 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Track Report - Chapter 4 - Watkins Glen (long)
Ooops. I meant
to say "radiator hose CLAMP"
. Then, bolt a small 1x1
in.
>L-shaped bracket to the angle iron to serve as an anchor for a
radiator
>hose CLAMP.
Changes the whole meaning,
eh?
Rich/old poop
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 12 Jun 1999 18:54:54 EDT
From: Klusmanp@aol.com
Subject: Team3S:
Vibration at 75-80 mph
Having recently rotated my tires, I noticed an
increase in vibration through
the steering wheel ('91 VR4). I got the tires
balanced and noticed an
immediate improvement. (previous owner had used
"fix-a-flat" on one tire
causing a massive imbalance)
I still get a
slight vibration at 75-80, especially when cornering or putting
a side load
on the wheels (i.e. cross-wind or driving on non level surface).
Dave Trent
('92 Stealth RT/TT) tells me he has the same behavior on his car.
Both Dave
and I have stock rims. We have both had all wheels balanced. Dave
had to
have one of his rims repaired after a pot hole incident a few years
back. My
rims have never been damaged as far as I know.
I suppose we could both
have a wobbly rim, but I was wondering if there is
some natural resonance in
the front suspension structure that we are hitting
in this speed range.
Anyone else have this problem?
Thanks
Paul Klusman
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 12 Jun 1999 18:54:50 EDT
From: Klusmanp@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: What is
facory recommended tire pressure?
There is supposed to be a sticker
somewhere on the door opening that gives
the factory recommended tire
pressure. I can't find it on mine - anybody know
what front and rear tire
pressures are?
thanks
Paul Klusman
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 13 Jun 1999 01:04:09 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: ARC-GP2 Installed...
Howdy George,
You have been able to
walk away from the Beemers due to the higher boost,
this is fact. But why is
the boost limited to 1.15 bars ?? The musics starts
to play above 1.2 bars
for sure. The 13Gs are able to go over 1.35bars !!
Also the stock turbos
(or the 13Gs) do not suck more cfm in than the stock
MAS already can deliver
so what is the gain of the MAF (with your setup) ?
I'd say with a simple fuel
controller (e.g. the ARC without the MAF) you'd
have the same results with
the 550cc injectors.
Maybe Brian told you that I'm really sceptic about
this stuff (or you read
it on the list :) and I have written my questions to
Eric at SplitSeconds.
But I haven't got any answers yet (maybe too
technical)
Finally I'm a little confused as Brian told me that he has not
to sell this
stuff as I wrote that his post sounded like an add. But you
bought it from
him, did you ?
Later,
Roger
93'3000GT
TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 12 Jun 1999 17:20:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Kuo <amkreadgto@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: ARC-GP2 Installed...
Hi Roger,
- --- "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch> wrote:
> Howdy
George,
>
> You have been able to walk away from the Beemers
due
> to the higher boost,
> this is fact. But why is the boost
limited to 1.15
> bars ?? The musics starts
> to play above 1.2 bars
for sure. The 13Gs are able
> to go over 1.35bars !!
I didnt know
if it was safe to boost that high on 92 gas. So how much
is safe on 92oct
gas??
> Also the stock turbos (or the 13Gs) do not suck more
>
cfm in than the stock
> MAS already can deliver so what is the gain of
the
> MAF (with your setup) ?
This I don't know, you know I'm
pretty much mechanically challenged.
=)But there is always a chance in the
future that I'll upgrade my
turbos again...
> I'd say with a
simple fuel controller (e.g. the ARC
> without the MAF) you'd
> have
the same results with the 550cc injectors.
Maybe, but the SplitSec MAF if
bought seperate (if they sell it
seperate, I dont know) would probably cost
around $200?? That's not
much for getting rid of the stock karman vortex
style MAS. Besides,
isn't better flow = better performance? Also, Brian gave
me a great
deal on it and did the installation for free!! And I just love
that air
sucking noise, made me feel faster! hahaha...
> Maybe
Brian told you that I'm really sceptic about
> this stuff (or you
read
> it on the list :)
Yea, but I dont really know how well it
is comparing to the VPC. And I
know you think the ARC-2GP is priced too high,
but I did save alot of
money on this deal. Truthfully, I wouldn't buy it if
not Brian gave me
this kind of deal. I'd promised myself not to spent any
money on the
car.. but... hehe.. u know how it is..
> Finally
I'm a little confused as Brian told me that
> he has not to sell
this
> stuff as I wrote that his post sounded like an add.
> But you
bought it from
> him, did you ?
Huh?? Yea, I did buy it from him. I
think he's the only distributor for
this particular
kit.
Regards,
George
_________________________________________________________
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You Yahoo!?
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------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 13 Jun 1999 03:09:32 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: ARC-GP2 Installed...
>> to play above 1.2 bars for sure.
The 13Gs are able
>> to go over 1.35bars !!
>
>I didnt know
if it was safe to boost that high on 92 gas. So how much
>is safe on 92oct
gas??
Sorry, I don't know how much the ARC can do. If the EGT are as
low enough in
the low 800 area and the mixture on the rich side you should be
fine. Also I
don't know what the 550cc are able to deliver compared to the
boost.
>This I don't know, you know I'm pretty much mechanically
challenged.
>=)But there is always a chance in the future that I'll
upgrade my
>turbos again...
Sure :))
>Maybe, but the
SplitSec MAF if bought seperate (if they sell it
>seperate, I dont know)
would probably cost around $200??
Yes, they sell it for $250 and this is
not too much. The GM version of this
style (hotwire) is around
$190.
>Besides, isn't better flow = better performance ?
The
question is what is "better" flow. What the MAF can is flowing
definitely
more than the stock MAS but our 13G are not able to profit from
this. I think
15G and upwards will start to profit.
>Also, Brian gave me a greatdeal
on it and did the installation for free!!
And I just love that
air
>sucking noise, made me feel faster! hahaha...
Cool ! As I
said, the kit is a good thing but not for $1000 ! I'm sure you
got the right
deal, hehe.
> I'd promised myself not to spent any money on
the
>car.. but... hehe.. u know how it is..
Don't tell me. BTW does
anyone need a huge FMIC and piping that is useless
for me ?? On a 3000GT, the
whole front bumper must be reworked, a crash bar
must be removed and active
aero must go too. No way for me :(
>Yea, I did buy it from him. I
think he's the only distributor for
>this particular kit.
No
problem, as this might be a misunderstanding from me :)
I've sent
SplitSeconds my questions and will make them public when I
get
them.
Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 12 Jun 1999 18:31:04 -0700
From: Bruce Body <bbody@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Springs (was: anyone there?)
I've seen several cars with the RS*R
springs and they look great. Not too low, but take
up a lot of the
fender
gap very nicely. I believe they are rated 1.5" front and 1.25" rear with
1.375"
overall lowering.
No one I spoke with that own these springs had
anything negative to say about them. They
are the
lowest price, better
handling than stock, good ride on the street and do not need camber
adjusting
kit to
properly re-align. I have a set on order right now, so hopefully soon
I can speak from
experience.
Bruce
3Si #0243
Bob Forrest
wrote:
> I wasn't originally going to get lowering springs, but when I
looked
> at the pictures of our San Francisco gathering in January
(BANG'99), I
> realized just how high off the ground my car is compared to
all the
> other cars. Mine looks like I've got truck stiffeners
lifting the
> chassis off the ground compared to the other cars in the
line-up. I
> know they ship these cars with rubber spacers in the
springs (that are
> supposed to be removed by the dealer before sale), but
I'm starting to
> think that maybe they never took the spacers out on my
car! BTW, I
> have an NT, so I don't have to worry about Active Aero
clearance.
> Just from looking at the pictures, do any of you guys think a
1" drop
> will be enough for me? I don't think so... My
pictures never got put
> up, since they got buried somewhere in my move,
but Chris Winkley's
> and Scott Alcaide's are at:
>
> www.bobforrest.com/Bang99CW.htm
>
www.bobforrest.com/Bang99SA.htm
>
>
Any feedback would be appreciated. Mine is the '94 Red Stealth (on
>
the end in several photos...).
>
> Best,
>
>
Forrest
>
> -----Original Message-----From: Chris Winkley
>
<cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
>
|The Eibachs are GREAT springs, but only drop the car 1". The
> difference
is
> |perceived stiffness exists, but is not uncomfortable. I've
driven
> seven
> |hundred miles (in a day) with them and have been
very comfortable.
> The RSRs
> |are also popular, a couple
listmembers have used them. They also drop
> an
> |inch. The
adjustable Ground Control units (subject of a recent thread
> and
>
|group purchase) can be adjusted to drop up to 2.5" (as I recall).
>
Caution
> |about too much drop, you're likely to have clearance problems
with
> the
> |Active Aero in front and the exhaust system from
below.
> |
> |Looking forward...Chris (with Eibachs)
>
|
> |-----Original Message-----From: Bob Forrest
> [mailto:bf@bobforrest.com]
> |
>
|-----Original Message-----From: Rice-Burner Crusher
> |<stealth_es@hotmail.com>
>
|<snip>
> ||Anyway, who makes lowering springs for our cars.
I'm looking to
> drop
> ||1.5-1.75", but I don't want to sacrafice
the ride.. Who makes a
> good
> ||setup??
> |
>
|I've been looking at the Eibachs for my car too; they seem to be the
>
|popular choice... I think any aftermarket springs are going to
cost
> a
> |bit of comfort, though.
> |<snip>
>
|Forrest
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 12 Jun 1999 18:41:52 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: What is facory recommended tire pressure?
I have an NT, so mine
might be different, but it's 32 front, 29 rear
for the stock tires. But
that has nothing to do with the tire/wheel
combo you're using now, or the
dynamics of your car, or how and where
you drive it. Recommended
pressures are easy on the tire and cushion
suspension flaws, but are not
necessarily the best for handling.
Since we own performance cars, it's a
pretty safe assumption that
handling takes precedence over how long tires
last and our miles per
gallon... You'll probably find that as a "daily
driver" you prefer a
softer setting than when you take your girl out for a
spin on some
winding roads on the weekend. Even the manual recommends
+6 lbs all
around for driving at 100 mph (160 kph). You should
definitely test
various settings to determine what feels best for your car,
tires,
driving habits...
I always test a new set of tires over a range
that far exceeds even
the recommended maximum pressure, and it's rare when
the higher
pressure doesn't improve handling. You'll probably halve
the
longevity of the tires, but if it's performance you want, that's
the
price... At the extreme end, you'll find autoX-ers running around
50
lbs up front. I always drive fast, and there are lots of turns in
San
Francisco, and I'm running wide performance tires, so I keep mine
up
pretty high all the time, 43/37 front/rear, and I bump that up when
I'm
going on a long trip or when it's raining. With my stock standard
width
tires, I used to run 39/33. (The 6 lb differential is best for
my FWD;
your AWD will probably be only 3 or 4 lbs).
Try 46/42 for a few days,
then 42/38, then 38/34, then 34/30... Drive
the same curve a few times
at each setting and see how it feels. When
you find what feels best,
then vary just the rears, first a 6 lb
difference, then 4, then 2. It's
really very little work when you
find a setting that allows your car to do
"exactly what you tell it to
do" in all situations.
Guaranteed, that
'ideal' tire pressure setting won't even be close to
what's posted on the
door.
Best,
Forrest
- -----Original Message-----From: Klusmanp@aol.com <Klusmanp@aol.com>
|There is
supposed to be a sticker somewhere on the door opening that
gives
|the
factory recommended tire pressure. I can't find it on mine -
anybody
know
|what front and rear tire pressures are?
|
|thanks
|
|Paul
Klusman
|For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
|
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 12 Jun 1999 18:55:37 -0700
From: Bruce Body <bbody@pacbell.net>
Subject: Team3S:
The next step
I am currently running FIPK and DSBC in my 95 VR4. I want
to increase my
boost levels using the stock turbos. I went to a local shop
that has
done several upgrades to 3s cars. I was thinking HKS fuel pump
and
regulator, 550/560 injectors and a means to control them such as AFC
or
G-Force ECU. There is a lot of debate on DP, precats and test pipe
and
as I live with California emissions laws, haven't made a decision
on
these yet. I plan on installing EGT, A/F and IDC meters before any
work
is done so I have a base to work from.
The shop I went to said
that the stock injectors with the 9Bs were
sufficient to run 17psi without
maxxing out. They suggested the pump,
regulator, FMIC with piping, G-Force
ECU and dynotune. Their installs of
the FMIC looked very clean (saw 2 of them
on VR4s), but I have some
concern about going back to stock for warranty work
with this setup.
Plus I'd like to keep my car a "sleeper" if possible, but I
realize at
some point...
So I turn to the experts about your ideas to
get the most out of my 9Bs,
and the 2 scenarios
above.
Thanks,
Bruce
3Si #0243
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:04:10 -0700
From: Bruce Body <bbody@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Vibration at 75-80 mph
I have had this same situation on
virtually every car I've owned. I
sometimes neglect to do my alignments as
often as I should. I think in
my case my tires need to wear into the new
settings because my
vibrations always go away after a couple hundred miles of
driving. I
always balance, rotate and align at the same time. Maybe this is
your
case too?
Bruce
3Si #0243
Klusmanp@aol.com wrote:
>
>
Having recently rotated my tires, I noticed an increase in vibration
through
> the steering wheel ('91 VR4). I got the tires balanced and
noticed an
> immediate improvement. (previous owner had used "fix-a-flat"
on one tire
> causing a massive imbalance)
>
> I still get a
slight vibration at 75-80, especially when cornering or putting
> a side
load on the wheels (i.e. cross-wind or driving on non level surface).
>
Dave Trent ('92 Stealth RT/TT) tells me he has the same behavior on his
car.
> Both Dave and I have stock rims. We have both had all wheels
balanced. Dave
> had to have one of his rims repaired after a pot hole
incident a few years
> back. My rims have never been damaged as far as I
know.
>
> I suppose we could both have a wobbly rim, but I was
wondering if there is
> some natural resonance in the front suspension
structure that we are hitting
> in this speed range. Anyone else have this
problem?
>
> Thanks
>
> Paul Klusman
> For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:25:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Kuo <amkreadgto@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: The next step (emission)
Hi Bruce,
- --- Bruce Body <bbody@pacbell.net>
wrote:
> I went to a
> local shop that has
> done
several upgrades to 3s cars.
Which local shop did u go?
UnderPressure??
> fuel pump and
> regulator, 550/560 injectors
and a means to control
> them such as AFC or
> G-Force ECU. There is
a lot of debate on DP, precats
> and test pipe and
> as I live with
California emissions laws, haven't
> made a decision on
> these yet.
Will the larger injectors or G-Force ECU pass
emission?
_________________________________________________________
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You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
For
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------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 12 Jun 1999 22:36:29 -0400
From: "Michael Dorsey" <mdorsey@mindspring.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Vibration at 75-80 mph
I've had the same problem. When
I test drove the car, I noticed it
and had the
dealer put new tires on it,
no difference. Damaged the sidewall ont
he front
passenger tire and
had to have it replaced, still no difference. Just
recently
I had to
have the front passenger tire patched, and this time the
vibration
is
gone. The only thing I can figure is that these rims are tough
to
balance
correctly. Out of 3 wheel balances, only one cured the
problem.
Michael
BTW, this is on a 98 VR4 with 18" chrome
rims. 235/40-18 Dunlop
W-10's.
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of
> Klusmanp@aol.com
>
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 1999 18:55
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
Subject: Team3S: Vibration at 75-80 mph
>
>
> Having recently
rotated my tires, I noticed an increase in
> vibration through
> the
steering wheel ('91 VR4). I got the tires balanced and noticed
an
>
immediate improvement. (previous owner had used "fix-a-flat"
> on one
tire
> causing a massive imbalance)
>
> I still get a slight
vibration at 75-80, especially when
> cornering or putting
> a side
load on the wheels (i.e. cross-wind or driving on non
> level
surface).
> Dave Trent ('92 Stealth RT/TT) tells me he has the
same
> behavior on his car.
> Both Dave and I have stock rims. We
have both had all wheels
> balanced. Dave
> had to have one of his
rims repaired after a pot hole
> incident a few years
> back. My
rims have never been damaged as far as I know.
>
> I suppose we
could both have a wobbly rim, but I was
> wondering if there is
>
some natural resonance in the front suspension structure that
> we are
hitting
> in this speed range. Anyone else have this
problem?
>
> Thanks
>
> Paul Klusman
> For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:34:27 -0700
From: Bruce Body <bbody@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: The next step (emission)
Hi George,
George Kuo
wrote:
>
> Hi Bruce,
>
> --- Bruce Body <bbody@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> > I went to a
> > local shop that has
> >
done several upgrades to 3s cars.
>
> Which local shop did u go?
UnderPressure??
Yes it was. I kinda like the place. Very friendly people,
lots of
business. They have 2 Skylines that the shop owns. One is a 700hp
HKS.
One of the techs owns a VR4. You should check it out. Both times I
was
there they gave me a tour of the place. Sounds like they try to
be
competitive on pricing too.
>
> > fuel pump and
>
> regulator, 550/560 injectors and a means to control
> > them such
as AFC or
> > G-Force ECU. There is a lot of debate on DP,
precats
> > and test pipe and
> > as I live with California
emissions laws, haven't
> > made a decision on
> > these
yet.
>
> Will the larger injectors or G-Force ECU pass
emission?
I really don't know. I didn't ask. I assume that if the A/F
ratio and
timing curve's, etc. are correct that it will. Think they would
have
warned me though. For example, If they sell me DP, test pipe and
pre-cat
pipes, they will not let me leave with them on the car because
of
emissions and EPA concerns. They know this is a street car. Don't
you
(did) have larger injectors and AFC? Do (did) you
pass?
Bruce
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 12 Jun 1999 20:13:31 -0700
From: Bruce Body <bbody@pacbell.net>
Subject: Team3S:
Boost conversion factors
On the various boards and lists, discussions
regarding boost are usually
in psi or bar. My DSBC displays it's readings in
kg/cm2 as I think other
BCs do also. I know that bar and kg/cm2 are close but
1.00 bar is 14.5
psi and 1.00 kg/cm2 is 14.223 psi. So all along I am
thinking that 1.02
kg/cm2 is 1.00 bar.
So when you talk about 1.05
bar, 1.1 bar, etc., are you referring to the
display on your BC, external
boost gauge or are you converting the
numbers? I want to make sure I'm on the
same page and I've never seen
this discussed
anywhere.
Thanks,
Bruce
3Si #0243
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 12 Jun 1999 23:43:50 -0400
From: William Lynn Larsen <wlarsen@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Vibration at 75-80 mph
Most tire shops will fight this tooth and nail,
but if you insist they
can balance them on the car. Sometimes this is the
only way and if you
get it done, be sure and mark the relationship between
all the parts:
tire to wheel, wheel to hub so that you can get them back
that way if
need be.
For really bad out of balance there is even a way
they can balance using
strobe lights that I have only seen used once, but it
works to get the
setuup
in balance enough for the spin to
work.
Regards,
Lynn
Michael Dorsey wrote:
>
> I've
had the same problem. When I test drove the car, I noticed it
> and
had the dealer put new tires on it, no difference. Damaged
the
> sidewall ont he front passenger tire and had to have it
replaced,
> still no difference. Just recently I had to have the
front
> passenger tire patched, and this time the vibration is
gone. The
> only thing I can figure is that these rims are tough to
balance
> correctly. Out of 3 wheel balances, only one cured the
problem.
>
> Michael
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 13 Jun 1999 10:40:34 +0200
From: Matthews <matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: fuel system upgrades (was: The next step)
Bruce Body
wrote:
>
> I am currently running FIPK and DSBC in my 95 VR4. I
want to increase my
> boost levels using the stock turbos. [ ... ]
>
The shop I went to said that the stock injectors with the 9Bs were
>
sufficient to run 17psi without maxxing out. They suggested the pump,
>
regulator, FMIC with piping, G-Force ECU and dynotune.
Well, we know that
on a stock setup the IDC maxes out at 6000+ RPMs. We
also know that
detonation begins at 15 psi on 93 octane unleaded. Are
they suggesting
that a better fuel pump and regulator can overcome
these
limitations?
- --
Jim Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de
(64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
***
3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet
Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active
Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0
bar @ 72% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Blitz Blow-Off
Valve
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix
brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, Top
Speed: 168mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
1 Feb
99 Dyno Session: 406 SAE HP, 354 lb-ft torque
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 13 Jun 1999 10:55:20 +0200
From: Matthews <matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: intake resonance (was: Killed the Honking Goose)
Roger
wrote:
>
> Bruce wrote:
> >
> > I like many
others that put on an aftermarket air filter, suffer from
> > what has
been described as a "honking goose" a "blowing over a soda
> > bottle"
sound at moderate throttle. I had this bad and it was getting
> > worse
weekly. Theories were it was a leaking stock bypass valve or a
> >
partially opened wastegate.
>
> The second is definitely not the
case as it happens only on partial load and
> a wastegate wouldn't causing
any sound in the intake parts as it is a part
> in the exhaust trakt
:-)
>
> As you maybe know, there are some cars that do not have the
sound (like
> mine, never had it) and others do (I heard it in Jim's
Stealth) but we all
> have the very same BPV ! The stock one has a little
hole in it and this is
> something like a little leak, but too small for
causing any problems.
I solved the problem with a Blitz BOV, which is
installed in series with
the stock BPV and only activates at high
pressures. If there were a
problem with the stock BPV or wastegates,
then the Blitz BOV should have
had little effect. No, I think the
problem has to do with air flow
recirculation characteristics during light
boost.
> > I decided to try a 1st gen DSM valve because I hear
they work good on our
> > cars, so what the heck. I got the valve from
Buschur. [ ... ] It cured
> > the problem!!! [ ...
] I took the stock valve and blew through it with
> > my mouth
and was able to get it to leak quite easily! This has to be the
problem.
>
> Have you also tried just to remove the small pipings
that are pluged into
> the BOV upstream hole ?
This is what I plan
to do as soon as I get a chance. My theory is that
these tubes are
responsible for the intake resonance and their
modification or removal will
rectify the situation. If this is the
case, the Blitz BOV is coming
back off! I have been unable to measure
any performace improvements
with the Blitz BOV and find the trailing
throttle stumble (aparently common
to all aftermarket BOVs that vent to
the atmosphere) almost as annoying as
the intake resonance.
Good luck... -Jim
- --
Jim Matthews -
Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de
(64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
***
3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet
Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active
Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0
bar @ 72% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Blitz Blow-Off
Valve
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix
brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, Top
Speed: 168mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
1 Feb
99 Dyno Session: 406 SAE HP, 354 lb-ft torque
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 13 Jun 1999 12:03:03 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Boost conversion factors
Bruce, you are very right with your tech
conversions and we already had this
discussion some times ago. When I refer
to boost of 1.00bars than I actually
mean the kg/cm2 shown on the boost
controller. But the figures are so close
and the error of the instrument
showing the pressure is maybe bigger. As an
example, I do have the DSBC and
the Dual Timer that both are reading the
same pressure but when running both
in the same mode I often can see a
difference of 0.02 kg/cm2 or 2 hg at idle.
The same with the analog boost
meter here it depends also on the viewing
angle what the readings are :)
But if I say detonation occurs around
1.05bars this may mean on some cars
you can see a retarded timing just under
1.00 bars while other have no
problem up to 1.07 bars. You see the quality
range (with the many variables)
on the cars is different and this is why each
car must be tuned in
individually. This is why we say, for example, that the
injectors are maxed
out at 14-15psi and not at 14.22745 psi :)
Happy
boosting,
Roger
93'3000GT TT
>On the various boards and lists,
discussions regarding boost are usually
>in psi or bar. My DSBC displays
it's readings in kg/cm2 as I think other
>BCs do also. I know that bar and
kg/cm2 are close but 1.00 bar is 14.5
>psi and 1.00 kg/cm2 is 14.223 psi.
So all along I am thinking that 1.02
>kg/cm2 is 1.00
bar.
>
>So when you talk about 1.05 bar, 1.1 bar, etc., are you
referring to the
>display on your BC, external boost gauge or are you
converting the
>numbers? I want to make sure I'm on the same page and I've
never seen
>this discussed anywhere.
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 13 Jun 1999 12:07:45 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: intake resonance
>This is what I plan to do as soon as I get
a chance. My theory is that
>these tubes are responsible for the
intake resonance and their
>modification or removal will rectify the
situation. If this is the
>case, the Blitz BOV is coming back
off!
Great, let us know as on my car it made no difference (the HKS BOV
is
sitting around now)
> I have been unable to measureany
performace improvements with the Blitz
BOV and find the
trailing
>throttle stumble (aparently common to all aftermarket BOVs that
vent to
>the atmosphere) almost as annoying as the intake
resonance.
You are very right and especially on low boost situation I
hated the
behaviour. But I need something that properly vents the more boost
in the
very near future.
Later,
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 13 Jun 1999 12:20:05 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: fuel system upgrades
>> The shop I went to said that the
stock injectors with the 9Bs were
>> sufficient to run 17psi without
maxxing out. They suggested the pump,
>> regulator, FMIC with piping,
G-Force ECU and dynotune.
>
>Well, we know that on a stock setup the
IDC maxes out at 6000+ RPMs. We
>also know that detonation begins at
15 psi on 93 octane unleaded. Are
>they suggesting that a better
fuel pump and regulator can overcome
these
>limitations?
Theoretically, more fuel pressure should
allow the injectors to flow more
but the spray pattern and their life would
be degraded the same way as
running an IDC over 90% the whole time. The stock
pump is enough for the
stock 360cc.
Like Jim stated after 14-15psi
detonation begins and the timing is getting
retarded (you can see the result
directly on the dyno as power is reduced
when boost is increased) Therefore
what the most shops are doing is to
increase the amount of fuel and use this
to cool the chamber. This will
allow you to increase boost that finally gives
you the desired power. But
the stock fuel system is not able to do this
without any danger of damaging
something. Pump, injectors and a control
device is necessary.
The FMIC is a good solution to cool down the air
some more. This will allow
you to increase boost as well as the mixture will
be "colder". Well but it's
not easy to know how much boost can be increased
!
G-Force ECU can be programmed for the bigger injectors and it does
advance
the timing. With this there would not be a need for another A/F
controller
(maybe for fine tuning)
Let us know what they exactly mean
by dynotune ???
Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 13 Jun 1999 05:52:52 -0700
From: Bruce Body <bbody@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: fuel system upgrades
> >> The shop I went to said that
the stock injectors with the 9Bs were
> >> sufficient to run 17psi
without maxxing out. They suggested the pump,
> >> regulator, FMIC
with piping, G-Force ECU and dynotune.
> >
> >Well, we know
that on a stock setup the IDC maxes out at 6000+ RPMs. We
> >also
know that detonation begins at 15 psi on 93 octane unleaded. Are
>
>they suggesting that a better fuel pump and regulator can overcome
these
> >limitations?
>
Yes, along with the FMIC and piping.
I did not mention this in my
initial post, but I told the shop that I do not
plan to do sustained
high boost driving. Mostly 1/4 mile at dragstrip, light
to light,
freeway entrance type of stuff. If I run any open track events, I
will
run more conservative.
> Theoretically, more fuel pressure
should allow the injectors to flow more
> but the spray pattern and their
life would be degraded the same way as
> running an IDC over 90% the whole
time. The stock pump is enough for the
> stock 360cc.
>
>
Like Jim stated after 14-15psi detonation begins and the timing is
getting
> retarded (you can see the result directly on the dyno as power
is reduced
> when boost is increased) Therefore what the most shops are
doing is to
> increase the amount of fuel and use this to cool the
chamber. This will
> allow you to increase boost that finally gives you
the desired power. But
> the stock fuel system is not able to do this
without any danger of damaging
> something. Pump, injectors and a control
device is necessary.
So was my thinking the better way to go? Pump,
regulator, injectors and
a means to control them? 550/560 cc injectors and
AFC? I saw someone in
the archives (Jim maybe?) was able to turn consistent
12.1s in the 1/4
mile with stock turbos. Low to mid 12s are the times I'm
looking for. If
I can do this with stock turbos and ICs that would be
great!
>
> The FMIC is a good solution to cool down the air some
more. This will allow
> you to increase boost as well as the mixture will
be "colder". Well but it's
> not easy to know how much boost can be
increased !
>
> G-Force ECU can be programmed for the bigger
injectors and it does advance
> the timing. With this there would not be a
need for another A/F controller
> (maybe for fine tuning)
>
>
Let us know what they exactly mean by dynotune ???
We did not get into
specifics yet. The tech that actually does the write
ups and work on the VR4s
is out of the shop until mid next week and we
will speak then. On an earlier
visit to this shop I wanted to use it to
dial in my DSBC and find the
detonation point and get a hp and torque
curve.
Bruce
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 13 Jun 1999 09:08:38 -0400
From: Roger Crawford <rcrawford@dbp-inc.com>
Subject:
Team3S: For Sale
For Sale:
California Car Cover fitted car cover
for Mitsubishi 3000 or Stealth. Heavy
cotton cover, flannel lining. Can be
used as indoor or outdoor cover. $75.00
shipped. 2 months old
Factory
Bra for 1994 3000GT VR-4. Nose cover, hood piece, and earmuffs for
mirrors.
Bra perfect, need snaps for fenderwells to attach to car (hardware
store
item) all instructions and case. $50.00 shipped. 2 months old
Dealer
brochure for 1994 Mitsu VR-4. In cellophane, perfect $10.00 shipped.
All
shipping based on prepaid via check /MO. COD please add COD charges.
Please respond privately if interested.
Regards,
Roger
Crawford
rcrawford@dbp-inc.com
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 13 Jun 1999 07:35:59 -0600
From: "Palamara, Peter" <pala@gwl.com>
Subject: Team3S: More wooohs
:(
Well after replacing my transfer case (Thanx Brad!) I drove my car
fine for
3 days no racing no nothing and now the thing is leaking like a
sieve of
antifreeze. First thing I thought was water pump but usually
waterpumps go
out slower and not just overnight and upon removal of timing
belt cover
there was no sign of antifreeze anywhere in the timing belt
region. Now I
haven't started tearing things apart but I wanted to see if it
is possible
of a water pump failure on our cars without getting the region
soaked in
antifreeze. I'm hoping its just a pump or mabey freeze plug! My
worst fears
are a cracked block or something else that I don't know of. I
have never had
the timing area exposed yet so I'm not sure what to expect and
mabey someone
may know what else may cause a massive leakage of fluid each
time I drive it
:( Oh there is no sign of water in the oil but its all over
the pan though
:*( Oh also drain plug for radiator is tight and its only
coming from the
drivers side of the engine. Not a good way to start the
summer at all!
92 3000 GTO MMC
500 H.P. of broken fun again
:(
Plates (HIPRESR)
(303) 689-4733
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 13 Jun 1999 06:42:18 -0700
From: Bruce Body <bbody@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: intake resonance (was: Killed the Honking Goose)
Matthews
wrote:
>
> Roger wrote:
> >
> > Bruce
wrote:
> > >
> > > I like many others that put on an
aftermarket air filter, suffer from
> > > what has been described as
a "honking goose" a "blowing over a soda
> > > bottle" sound at
moderate throttle. I had this bad and it was getting
> > > worse
weekly. Theories were it was a leaking stock bypass valve or a
> > >
partially opened wastegate.
> >
> > The second is definitely
not the case as it happens only on partial load and
> > a wastegate
wouldn't causing any sound in the intake parts as it is a part
> > in
the exhaust trakt :-)
> >
> > As you maybe know, there are
some cars that do not have the sound (like
> > mine, never had it) and
others do (I heard it in Jim's Stealth) but we all
> > have the very
same BPV ! The stock one has a little hole in it and this is
> >
something like a little leak, but too small for causing any
problems.
There was a guy on the 3Si message board that had the problem
like me
(both 95 VR4s) and had his BPV replaced with another stock unit and
his
problem went away. Perhaps there was a bad production run or the
spring
tires with age. I'm pretty sure mine did it from day one though
(bought
car new) but was masked by the stock air box. It sounded like a
low
vibration or resonance but didn't really vibrate. Only when I opened
up
the intake did it become readily apparent.
>
> I solved the
problem with a Blitz BOV, which is installed in series with
> the stock
BPV and only activates at high pressures. If there were a
> problem
with the stock BPV or wastegates, then the Blitz BOV should have
> had
little effect. No, I think the problem has to do with air flow
>
recirculation characteristics during light boost.
>
> > > I
decided to try a 1st gen DSM valve because I hear they work good on our
>
> > cars, so what the heck. I got the valve from Buschur. [ ...
] It cured
> > > the problem!!! [ ... ] I took the
stock valve and blew through it with
> > > my mouth and was able to
get it to leak quite easily! This has to be the problem.
> >
>
> Have you also tried just to remove the small pipings that are pluged
into
> > the BOV upstream hole ?
>
> This is what I plan
to do as soon as I get a chance. My theory is that
> these tubes are
responsible for the intake resonance and their
> modification or removal
will rectify the situation. If this is the
> case, the Blitz BOV is
coming back off! I have been unable to measure
> any performace
improvements with the Blitz BOV and find the trailing
> throttle stumble
(aparently common to all aftermarket BOVs that vent to
> the atmosphere)
almost as annoying as the intake resonance.
I don't know. To me it looks
like they are designed to direct the
pressure into the intake along with the
airflow. Rather than shooting it
straight up into the intake and possibly
creating turbulence in the
airstrip. This concerned me since any turbulence
would occur after the
MAS. I left mine in for this reason. The 1st gen DSM
BPV took care of my
resonance problem so I am happy. You may want to consider
going this
route. It is all metal housing and plunger and appears to be very
well
made. Some 3S guys and 2nd gen DSM swears by them. It's only been
about
200 miles for me, but I think I will too.
Roger thought it was
expensive at $125.00 USD, but most of the BOVs I
see around here list for
$300.00.
Bruce
3Si #0243
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 13 Jun 1999 16:11:02 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: fuel system upgrades
>Yes, along with the FMIC and piping. I
did not mention this in my
>initial post, but I told the shop that I do
not plan to do sustained
>high boost driving. Mostly 1/4 mile at
dragstrip, light to light,
>freeway entrance type of stuff. If I run any
open track events, I will
>run more conservative.
A FMIC will
profit more of an open track as the cool down period is longer
than on any
1/4 mile. Also it highly depends on the efficiency of the IC !
So was my
thinking the better way to go? Pump, regulator, injectors and
>a means to
control them? 550/560 cc injectors and AFC? I saw someone in
>the archives
(Jim maybe?) was able to turn consistent 12.1s in the 1/4
>mile with stock
turbos. Low to mid 12s are the times I'm looking for. If
>I can do this
with stock turbos and ICs that would be great!
I don't want to go back
into the "stock turbo" discussion but the 9Bs can
produce more than 1.25 bars
of boost. And this is definitely enough to go
into the mid 12 or even lower
when the car looses some weight. IMHO the pump
should be upgraded at first
(get the biggest Walbro pump, good flow, good
price). You can then increase
fuel pressure with an AFPR but be careful not
to damage the fuel injectors.
Monitoring the IDC is definitely necessary
here.
If the wallet allows
it, you should invest in the bigger injectors. For 1/4
mile purposes an AFC
works fine (maybe the new one even better) to tune the
ECU in. But I also
would say monitoring the EGT, O2 sensors (of course)
is
necessary.
>> Let us know what they exactly mean by dynotune
???
>
>We did not get into specifics yet. The tech that actually
does the write
>ups and work on the VR4s is out of the shop until mid next
week and we
>will speak then. On an earlier visit to this shop I wanted to
use it to
>dial in my DSBC and find the detonation point and get a hp and
torque
>curve.
Ahhh, I remember the shop, just make sure they know
how to use the AWD dyno
now :)
Best,
Roger
93'3000GT
TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 13 Jun 1999 16:49:24 +0200
From: Matthews <matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: intake resonance (was: Killed the Honking Goose)
Bruce Body
wrote:
>
> I don't know. To me it looks like they are designed to
direct the
> pressure into the intake along with the airflow. Rather than
shooting it
> straight up into the intake and possibly creating turbulence
in the
> airstrip. This concerned me since any turbulence would occur
after the
> MAS. I left mine in for this reason.
I agree that the
tubes are there for a reason and would like to leave
them in if
possible. Of course air is only recirculated by the BPV
under low and
off boost conditions, so I doubt it would affect
performance. At any
rate, it may be possible to modify the tubes to
eliminate the resonance while
avoiding turbulence (would a bottle top
still resonate if it were modified
with notches?).
> The 1st gen DSM BPV took care of
my
> resonance problem so I am happy. You may want to consider going
this
> route. It is all metal housing and plunger and appears to be very
well
> made. Some 3S guys and 2nd gen DSM swears by them. It's only been
about
> 200 miles for me, but I think I will too.
> Roger thought it
was expensive at $125.00 USD, but most of the BOVs I
> see around here
list for $300.00.
If only the BOV valve ($150 used, BTW) had no side
effects! Perhaps
leaving the tubes alone and replacing the Blitz BOV
and the stock BPV
with a DSM BPV is the way to go. Have you noticed any
negative side
effects whatsoever?
Thanx... -Jim
- --
Jim
Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de
(64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
***
3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet
Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active
Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0
bar @ 72% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Blitz Blow-Off
Valve
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix
brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, Top
Speed: 168mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
1 Feb
99 Dyno Session: 406 SAE HP, 354 lb-ft torque
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 13 Jun 1999 08:10:55 -0700
From: Bruce Body <bbody@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: intake resonance (was: Killed the Honking Goose)
Matthews
wrote:
> If only the BOV valve ($150 used, BTW) had no side
effects! Perhaps
> leaving the tubes alone and replacing the Blitz
BOV and the stock BPV
> with a DSM BPV is the way to go. Have you
noticed any negative side
> effects whatsoever?
I just installed it
yesterday, but I then drove the car about 200 miles
under various conditions.
I could not get it to fault or exhibit any
negative behavior whatsoever. With
my stock BPV I could get it to
resonate at will for as long as I wanted. It
has a nice sounding whoosh
that's not too loud but let's people know that
something good is going
on under the hood:-) Using Buschur's BPV with adapter
allowed me to
mount it in the stock location using the stock hoses. This was
important
to me. The only problem I had was it initially interfered with 3rd
and
5th gears on my 6 speed tranny. I rotated it clockwise slightly so
the
diaphragm would clear the linkage and tightened it down. If the
car
continues to act like it does now, I recommend it highly. If
anything
changes I will post right away.
Bruce
3Si #0243
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sun, 13 Jun 1999 22:41:59 -0500
From: "Oskar" <swede@pclink.com>
Subject: Team3S: 17"
wheels wanted
I am looking for a set of 17x8.5 or 17x9 aftermarket or
stock rims that will
fit a 2nd gen Stealth TT. Please reply with
detailed description of the
wheels. If you have a scanned image that
would be appreciated. Include
what model car they were used on.
Cosmetic flaws are ok as long as the
wheels are perfectly
round.
Please reply privately to swede@pclink.com
Thanks,
Oskar
Persson
'95 R/T TT
3Si # 129
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