--
From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
(Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Team3S Digest V1 #176
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
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Team3S Digest
Wednesday, May 12 1999 Volume 01
: Number
176
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 19:51:39 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: AGIP oil in our Getrag
> that I got for AGIP. The other place
that recommended it was from an exotic
> shop (Porsche). I have Redline
MT90 right now (which we saved in a bottle).
Well, depending on how long
it was in the tranny I'd reuse it or get with new
Redline. I'd not go for the
Agip stuff. Redline is well proven !
- -----------------------
Roger
Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 14:26:05 EDT
From: MitsuVR41@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Steam
source located
I located the steam source.....It is coming from the
exhaust !!! I'm having
trouble locating the section and part name
but.....there is a steel braided
looking section that seems to have a little
flexibility in it. The steam
seems to be seeping through the braids or
something to that nature. My
intake plenum.....and backside of
the engine seem extremely hot, but my temp
guage in the car
reads normal (notch under half way). I changed my oil
again
today.....and went back to Castrol Syntec 10w 30. My oil pressure went
back up to were it use to be.....but still is lower than normal. I
have had
gasoline drip out of my exhaust in the past. Assuming my
exhaust may be
stopped up or clogged.....do you guys think this would cause
my out take to
over heat....and the heat and exhaust back up and over work
itself.....causing the rear end of the engine area to heat up and seem so
hot????? Another thing.....would disconnecting my exhaust and running
the
car to see if it runs better be an ideal thing to do to check the
exhaust for
clogging?? Thanks
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 12:51:52 -0700
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Steam source located
MitsuVR41 (I keep wondering if you have
a name)...
I believe you're referring to the flex section in the downpipe
(it's just in
front of the main cat). While I've never had this happen to me,
a Corvette
owner here at work was telling about his main cat being so clogged
that the
car wouldn't run. Soooo, it sounds like you're on the right track,
it could
be that you have a clogged main cat which is causing significant
back
pressure on the engine. The quickest way to check is to separate the
front
half of the exhaust (at the main cat) and take a look. Better yet, run
it
(in the garage) with the exhaust disconnected from the precats and see
if
the symptoms disappear. Best would be to pull that stock assembly
and
replace it with an ATR (or similar) downpipe and high flow
cat.
Looking forward...Chris
1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4 (w/blown
turbo seal mod)
- -----Original Message-----
From: MitsuVR41@aol.com [mailto:MitsuVR41@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday,
May 11, 1999 11:26 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Team3S: Steam source located
I located the steam source.....It is
coming from the exhaust !!! I'm having
trouble locating the section
and part name but.....there is a steel braided
looking section that seems to
have a little flexibility in it. The steam
seems to be seeping through
the braids or something to that nature. My
intake plenum.....and
backside of the engine seem extremely hot, but my
temp
guage in
the car reads normal (notch under half way). I changed my oil
again today.....and went back to Castrol Syntec 10w 30. My oil
pressure
went
back up to were it use to be.....but still is lower than
normal. I have had
gasoline drip out of my exhaust in the
past. Assuming my exhaust may be
stopped up or clogged.....do you guys
think this would cause my out take to
over heat....and the heat and exhaust
back up and over work
itself.....causing the rear end of the engine area to
heat up and seem so
hot????? Another thing.....would disconnecting my
exhaust and running the
car to see if it runs better be an ideal thing to do
to check the exhaust
for
clogging?? Thanks
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 15:51:30 -0500
From: "Gabriel Estrada" <typhoonzz@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Steam source located
Along the line of Catalitic
converters/ How hard would it be to replace the
precats with a piece of
straight pipe? Would I get a quicker turbo spool,
or would this just
cause problems? I did this on my truck and the quicker
spool was
amazing. Needed a boost controller to keep the spikes down, but
it was
a dramatic increase in power. Has anyone done this? Not
concerned
with emission laws as we don't have any.
Thanks in
advance,
Gabriel Estrada
94 Pearl Yellow VR-4
92 Gmc Typhoon
- -----
Original Message -----
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Sent:
Tuesday, May 11, 1999 2:51 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Steam source
located
> Soooo, it sounds like you're on the right track, it
could
> be that you have a clogged main cat which is causing significant
back
> pressure on the engine. The quickest way to check is to separate
the front
> half of the exhaust (at the main cat) and take a look. Better
yet, run it
> (in the garage) with the exhaust disconnected from the
precats and see if
> the symptoms disappear. Best would be to pull that
stock assembly and
> replace it with an ATR (or similar) downpipe and high
flow cat.
>
> Looking forward...Chris
>
> 1995 Glacier
Pearl White VR4 (w/blown turbo seal mod)
>
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 16:12:49 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Taking out cats
>Along the line of Catalitic
converters/ How hard would it be to replace the
>precats with a
piece of straight pipe?
If we are going to get into this topic, I
have a few questions:
1. Why do those furshlugginer downpipes cost so
dang much? It's just a
piece of SS pipe with a flange and no cats, right? Is
this yet another
ripoff?
2. Can we take all the cats off and
then get through an inspection later?
Is it wise to keep the old system and
stick it back on when necessary? (If
it's anything like rotors, I should be
able to change it back in 10
minutes). Will a VR4 pass the 49 states
emissions with just one main cat?
We don't have emission inspections in Iowa
yet, but Murphy's Law says that
the very second I take down my exhaust, IDOT
will start inspecting.
3. How much trouble is it to take down the entire
exhaust system? Does
anyone sell a cat-less replacement?
Rich/old
poop/gasp! kof!
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 18:07:26 EDT
From: "Rice-Burner Crusher" <stealth_es@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Newbie Questions
I own a 1993 Dodge Stealth ES, and today I was
giving it a very thorough
cleaning for the first time since I bought it, and
I came across a couple of
things that I had questions
about.
1). Why does the rear seat bottom release and come up?
Is there something
under there, or is there room for
storage?
2). I took out the spare tire to clean up some pine
needles that had fallen
into the well, and I found two loose wires behind
the rear seats. They were
both female ends, and one looked like a
computer keyboard plug. Anyone know
what these are?
3).
Tire pressure. The car door says 32 front, 29 rear.. but the tires say
44 psi .. What should I go with?
4). How do I change the
rear cargo area's light bulb?
5). The driver's side seat belt has
trouble retracting. Is there a way to
make it work better?
Any
input would be
great!!
_______________________________________________________________
Get
Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 23:30:56 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Taking out cats
> 1. Why do those furshlugginer downpipes cost
so dang much? It's just a
> piece of SS pipe with a flange and no cats,
right? Is this yet another
> ripoff?
Do not mix downpipe and
pre-cat replacements ! A dp usually starts after the
precats and end at the
main cat. Stainless steel, the right bends/welds and the
proper design makes
them expensive as some handwork must be done. There are dp
available that
removes the front pre-cat with a normal pipe. The rear precat
cannot be
replaced due to the the complicated flange to the turbo and the little
space
available.
> 2. Can we take all the cats off and then get through an
inspection later?
This depends on the State / Country you're
in.
> Is it wise to keep the old system and stick it back on when
necessary?
In my country, yes :( Guess what I have to do next weekend
....
> 3. How much trouble is it to take down the entire exhaust
system? Does
> anyone sell a cat-less replacement?
The only trouble
is due to the weight of the stock system and the available room
with the car
on jacks. No full free exhaust available, even the Trust system
leaves the
rear pre-cat untouched. I run the car with and without the main cat
(ATR high
flow cat) and never recognized any power loss.
Gutting the precats will
help to free up the restriction of the exhaust much
more than any cat-back
system. There are cars with stock exhaust dynoed around
550hp in Europe (one
crashed in France).
// Roger
- -----------------------
Roger
Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 23:43:28 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Steam source located
Chris is very right about the clogged cat
and I'd definitely check it out. But I
also know of broken flex sections that
got damaged and leaked. Of course this is
an exhaust leak and is very
"smellable" inside the car as well as the heat will
come up the engine when
not driving.
> looking section that seems to have a little
flexibility in it.
The flex sections should isolate the engine vibrations
from the exhaust as well
as reducing stress to the turbo
mountings.
> The steam seems to be seeping through the braids or
something to that nature.
Definitely broken flex section.
> My
intake plenum.....and backside of the engine seem extremely hot, but
my
> temp guage in the car reads normal (notch under half
way).
Therefore the heat is generated externally the engine.
>
I changed my oil again today.....and went back to Castrol Syntec 10w 30.
My
> oil pressure went back up to were it use to be.....but still is lower
than
> normal.
Not a big problem so far.
> I have had
gasoline drip out of my exhaust in the past. Assuming my
> exhaust
may be stopped up or clogged.....
Right assumption. Also have the O2
sensor checked as they (or only one) may be
defective and gives a wrong
voltage to the ECU causing it to run over-rich. This
can cause running gas
into the exhaust where it gets ignited. But this should be
very
noticeable.
> Another thing.....would disconnecting my exhaust and
running the
> car to see if it runs better be an ideal thing to do to
check the exhaust for
> clogging??
Well, you can't check the
pre-cats with this method. I'd remove the main cat and
check it out for any
clogging. You can also get the front pre-cat for this
purpose.
Good
luck,
Roger
- -----------------------
Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor
wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,HKS SBOV,
ATR DP/testpipe,Borla
Cat-back,OZ Mito2 rims,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines
Bremsa brakes,u-Mevius
Street Race pads
Check out: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/3000gt.html
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 15:41:40 -0700
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Taking out cats - LONG
Rich & Gabriel...
This has
been discussed before, but I don't know that anyone has summarized
the
thread. I'll give it a shot, anyone else feel free to jump in. Let me
preface
all this by saying that any removal of cats is intended for off road
use
only.
1. How hard would it be to replace the precats with a piece of
straight
pipe?
My answer...not too difficult, given that you
have the ability to form the
bends, and weld the flanges. There have been a
number of custom downpipes
manufactured. Most, if not all, replace the front
precat and main cat, while
leaving the rear intact. This is because the
angles and flanging are quite
awkward. It's important (from the flow
perspective) to have mandrel bends.
Remember, the last I heard, the fine for
a shop removing a cat is $10K.
Soooo, there's a limit to how many muffler
shops are willing to do this work
if they don't know you well.
2. Why
do those furshlugginer downpipes cost so dang much? It's just a piece
of SS
pipe with a flange and no cats, right? Is this yet another rip-off?
My
answer...to get a good fit, with no leaks, and no interference is not
a
simple task. Aside from materials ($150?), there's labor at $65 an
hour
(unless you have all the equipment at home). Again, it's not just
straight
pipe with angles, but mandrel bends. It quickly becomes a $300+
venture, at
which point you're over half way to buying one. There has been
some
listmembers who've tried to get precat replacements from SS and found
shops
that want $300 just to design and produce one set of those.
3.
Can we take all the cats off and then get through an inspection later? Is
it
wise to keep the old system and stick it back on when necessary?
My
answer...I don't know of a state where you could pass emissions w/o any
of
the cats. This is why ATR has had a lot of success with their test
pipe/high
flow cat combination. You can swap out one for the other with four
bolts (10
minutes if you fit under your car better than I fit under mine). I
think most
people have kept their stock downpipe and cat...just in case. The
catback
system can be recycled as it does not affect emissions.
4. Will a VR4
pass the 49 states emissions with just one main cat?
My
answer...consensus seems to be that a main cat only will pass emissions
if
the car is completely warmed up. This has been tested in a number
of
states, but I don't know about all forty-nine. A number of list members
have
posted a technique for heating up the car, then swapping the main cat.
If
you've had a custom downpipe made that replaces the cats, you can still
heat
the car up, then swap back to the front half of the system. My test
is
coming up in three months.
5. How much trouble is it to take down
the entire exhaust system?
My answer...it's a matter of access. If you
have a hoist and can stand under
the car, you can probably drop the whole
system in a half hour. If you're
working on your back with six inches of
clearance, it might take two hours.
Functionally, it's only three or four
hangers and some bolts. Of course mine
were rusted solid, adding some more
time and swearing.
6. Does anyone sell a cat-less replacement?
ATR
and Alamo both sell downpipes with a test pipe. No one I've heard of
(and I
researched this question for quite a while two years ago) has a 3SI
downpipe
that replaces both precats. Numerous manufacturing challenges with
the rear
precat. Most listmembers have taken the time (and necessary
precautions) to
gut their precats. It leaves the O2 sensor in place, but
reduces back
pressure.
I hope this helps. There was a excellent post on gutting the
precats last
year. It should be in the archives, or I can dig it out of my
folders if
someone e-mails me privately.
Looking
forward...Chris
1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4 (w/blown turbo seal
mod)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 May 1999 00:42:06 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Newbie Questions
> 1). Why does the rear seat bottom
release and come up? Is there something
> under there, or is there
room for storage?
It just makes wiring an additional
amplifier/CD-Changer/MD-Changer and cleaning
easier.
> 2). I
took out the spare tire to clean up some pine needles that had fallen
>
into the well, and I found two loose wires behind the rear seats. They
were
> both female ends, and one looked like a computer keyboard
plug. Anyone know
> what these are?
Connections for the
factory CD-Changer
> 3). Tire pressure. The car door says
32 front, 29 rear.. but the tires say
> 44 psi .. What should I go
with?
44psi
> 4). How do I change the rear cargo area's
light bulb?
The one on the pass side ?? It just popped out with a little
hlp of a
screwdriver wrapped in a towel. The bulp can the be changed from
behind the
glass.
> 5). The driver's side seat belt has
trouble retracting. Is there a way to
> make it work
better?
Remove the driver side of the rear wall. You'll then find out
that this is much
easier with the rear seat bottom removed :) Then check out
the mechanism and
maybe only a little silicone spray helps. Mine had trouble
too and I did this.
Worked good for some months until it started again. Now I
live with that.
Cheers,
Roger
-
-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo
(Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi
AFC,HKS SBOV,
ATR DP/testpipe,Borla Cat-back,OZ Mito2 rims,Yoko
AVS-Z1,braided brake lines
Bremsa brakes,u-Mevius Street Race
pads
Check out: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/3000gt.html
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 18:46:52 EDT
From: RTTURB0@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Newbie
Questions
In a message dated 5/11/99 5:43:29 PM Central Daylight Time,
robby@swissonline.ch
writes:
<< 3). Tire pressure. The car door says
32 front, 29 rear.. but the tires
say
> 44 psi .. What
should I go with? >>
The 44 psi is just the recomended tire pressure
for that tire
cold...........id use 32 in front and 29 in
back............
Jake (Tire Tech)
91 Pearl White R/T TT
http://members.aol.com/rtturb0/enter.html
Blitz
SSBC, K&N Cone Filter Charger
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 18:00:40 -0500
From: "Trent" <rtrent@nlci.com>
Subject: Team3S: Hot
Weather Performance
All,
As summer air temps move in, I find my
performance suffering just enough to
make me want to compensate. Winter
performance is so crisp and strong you
forget how much things get slowed up
by the higher temps. I've been
pondering adding nitrous to compensate
but I dont want to put out a match
with a fire hose so to speak. For
those with nitrous knowledge, is it
possible to add a small enough dose to
simulate winter air density?
Thanks in
advance,
DaveT/92TT/13g/AFC/AVC/500ccRC's
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 15:55:38 -0700
From: Yoss <yoss@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Taking out cats
Roger:
On May 11, R.G. said:
[snip]
>
Gutting the precats will help to free up the restriction of the exhaust
much
> more than any cat-back system. There are cars with stock exhaust
dynoed around
> 550hp in Europe (one crashed in France).
What is
the cost of gutting (er...what _is_ gutting?) the precats, and is the
cost/hp
ratio lower with the precat gut mod than with a catback mod for a car
that
already has the K&N FIPK installed?
On May 12, R.G. said:
>
> 3). Tire pressure. The car door says 32 front, 29 rear.. but
the tires say
> > 44 psi .. What should I go with?
>
> 44psi
Isn't the 44psi the _maximum_ tire pressure rating for the
tire? I was
informed that the only time anybody runs them so high is
during autocross.
- -sankar
- --
*******************************************************************************
It
is too dangerous, you must not go alone.
Hey, I'm your
cha'DIch.
-- Worf and Picard, "Sins of the Father",
stardate
43685.2
*******************************************************************************
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 18:57:00 -0400
From: William Lynn Larsen <wlarsen@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Steam source located
Gabriel
You may have answered this in a
private email and if you have I will
apologize now. But, I am going to
ask the hard question straight out.
When you did the crankcase flush did you
do ALL of these steps
1. Before you drained old oil you added the
crankcase flush to the
engine oil.
2. Ran the engine for 5 minutes at IDLE
or no more than 1500RPM.
3. Shut the engine off and drained all of the old
oil letting it drain
for at least 10 minutes.
4. Removed
the old oil filter.
5. Installed a new oil filter.
6. Filled the crankcase
with new Mobil 1 15-50 or 10-30 oil.
7. Started the engine and checked for
leaks around the drain plug and
oil filter.
I am sorry if this seems
really basic, but I have known people to do
some really strange stuff and
since I don't know you, have to ask the
basic questions so we can put to rest
any notions of a crankcase flush
gone bad. Especially since it was done right
before a ~140 mile trip.
Please don't take this
personally.
Regards,
Lynn
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 18:03:40 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Newbie Questions
>> 3). Tire pressure. The
car door says 32 front, 29 rear.. but the tires
say
>> 44 psi
.. What should I go with?
>
>44psi
I hate to disagree
with Roger the wizard, but I think 44 psi is the maximum
pressure. It's what
I run on open track events, and the tires are really
stiff. On the street,
you oughta go with 32/29. Unless, of course, you are
running on the Autobahn
at 160+ mph like Roger does.
Rich/old poop/94 VR4
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 18:31:51 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Taking out cats
>
>My answer...to get a good fit,
with no leaks, and no interference is not a
>simple task. Aside from
materials ($150?), there's labor at $65 an hour
>(unless you have all the
equipment at home). Again, it's not just straight
>pipe with angles, but
mandrel bends. It quickly becomes a $300+ venture, at
>which point you're
over half way to buying one. There has been some
>listmembers who've tried
to get precat replacements from SS and found shops
>that want $300 just to
design and produce one set of those.
OK, that's the cost of the FIRST
one. Then, you send the prototype to a
fabricator to have 500 copies bent up
and welded on a CNC mandrel bending
jig, so that additional copies cost $10
for parts and $5 for labor per
unit, meaning that they should be able to sell
them for 2X cost, or $30 per
pipe (about right for an exhaust pipe, eh?). So
I repeat my question: Why
does a downpipe cost hundreds of dollars? Are we
being ripped off?
Most listmembers have taken the time (and
necessary
>precautions) to gut their precats. It leaves the O2 sensor in
place, but
>reduces back pressure.
This gets back to my question
about passing future emission tests. If I gut
the precats, and then can't
pass an emission test, it will cost me a bloody
fortune to buy new stock
downpipes with precats from Mitsu -- probably even
more than the ripoff SS
downpipes. To me, it seems like the ideal solution
is to drop the entire
stock system, seal it up and put it away somewhere,
and install an entirely
new exhaust with no cats. Then, if Big Brother
shows up with an emission
test, we just get the stock system out of the
attic and put it back on. Or
bolt in a huge catalytic converter just to
pass the test.
What's
wrong with this approach? Where can I buy a complete
replacement
exhaust?
I am beginning to think that what the 3000GT
world needs is somebody who is
willing to engineer and build some simple,
straightforward racing equipment
and sell it at a nice -- but not ripoff --
price. Anybody like that out there?
>I hope this helps. There was a
excellent post on gutting the precats last
>year. It should be in the
archives, or I can dig it out of my folders if
>someone e-mails me
privately.
Thanks. I saved Roger's instructions (and a couple of others)
last year.
Rich/old poop/kof kof
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 19:57:23 -0400
From: Ron Thompson <rtetetet@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Newbie Questions
1. You will fin a wire catch that locks into
a hook on the right and
left front edge of the back seat. Push back and pull
up and the seat
will release. No storage, seat is form fit to
pan.
2.CD player connections???
3. > The 44 psi is just the
recommended tire pressure for that tire
> cold...........id use 32 in
front and 29 in back............
44 PSI is the MAXIMUM recommended
inflation the tire is rated for. The
door jam sticker is the
Manufacturer's recommended tire pressures,
also cold. You can vary the
pressure to suit your preferences but
below the recommended 32/29 will cause
abnormal tire wear. Unless you
have the 245/45 18 set of tires rims you won't
want to go near 44 PSI.
Doesn't the ES have 15 or 16' rims? Above 35 PSI on
the 15's will
cause traction loss as your contact patch diminishes in size
and
excessive center wear on the tires. You have some leeway on the
16"
rims. Start at 32/29 and drive it a while, go up to 34/30 and try
it
next. Also drive through some water onto dry pavement slowly and
get
out and look at the wet tread pattern on the pavement and see when
the
full width of the tread does not leave a solid mark.
4. This will
sound strange; the belt is too limp. Pull it all the way
out and iron it, yes
iron it with some starch at the Nylon setting on
the iron so you don't melt
it. It is so limp that it folds and and
wrinkles so it binds and won't
retract. The other way is to remove the
inner trim panels and increase the
sprig tension on the retractor is
it pulls harder, but it will pull harder on
you when you drive.
Ron
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 20:01:54 -0400
From: Pete Ryner <pryner@ij.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Newbie
Questions
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Rich is right.
The 44 psi is the max TIRE
rating. The door listing is the =
manufacture's recommendation for the
vehicle. Use the door listing for =
normal driving. Extreme
driving is another case!
Pete
91 VR4
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Merritt [SMTP:merritt@cedar-rapids.net]
Sent:
Tuesday, May 11, 1999 7:04 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Newbie Questions
>> 3). Tire pressure. The
car door says 32 front, 29 rear.. but the =
tires
say
>> 44 psi
.. What should I go with?
>
>44psi
I hate to disagree
with Roger the wizard, but I think 44 psi is the =
maximum
pressure. It's
what I run on open track events, and the tires are really
stiff. On the
street, you oughta go with 32/29. Unless, of course, you =
are
running on
the Autobahn at 160+ mph like Roger does.
Rich/old poop/94
VR4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is =
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
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------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 20:20:15 -0400
From: Ron Thompson <rtetetet@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Taking out cats
> OK, that's the cost of the FIRST one.
Then, you send the prototype to a fabricator to have 500 copies bent up and
welded on a CNC mandrel bending jig, so that additional copies cost $10 for
parts and $5 for labor per unit, meaning that they should be able to sell them
for 2X cost, or $30 per
You have never had your own business, eh old
poop. Wholesale is always
3X cost of materials, labor and overhead. At retail
it's 2X whole
sale. You will never get the materials down to $10 and there
is
considerable amount of labor and hand work plus the amount you
invested
in the CNC machinery. I doubt 500 copies would sell that fast
considering the
amount of places doing tail pipe testing and the lack
of mechanics that can
swap them out and back. We suffer from the lack
of economy of scale that so
many of the mass produced car benefit from
like the Eclipse. W just don't
have the numbers for anybody to get
excited about making them since profits
are not going to bring in as
much as something that there is 10x the
potential audience. Example,
how many clutches sold in the group purchase???
Not a 100, just 11.
> This gets back to my question about passing
future emission tests. If I gut
> the precats, and then can't pass an
emission test, it will cost me a bloody
> fortune to buy new stock
downpipes with precats from Mitsu -- probably even
> more than the ripoff
SS downpipes. To me, it seems like the ideal solution
> is to drop the
entire stock system, seal it up and put it away somewhere,
With a test
pipe in your main cat's place and saving your pre cat down
pipes it would be
a shorter change over. Some places have gotten
really strict, and nothing but
stock passes. They won't even pass a
dual exhaust with a balance tube ahead
of the cats!
> I am beginning to think that what the 3000GT world
needs is somebody who is willing to engineer and build some simple,
straightforward racing equipment and sell it at a nice -- but not ripoff --
price. Anybody like that out there?
>
But where is the incentive for
someone to go to all the effort, money
makes the world go around. Most of my
friends are too time poor to pay
attention, let along take on a charity
project. It has to be a labor
of love only. Big, cool machines are expensive
and only pay for
themselves when being billed out so they can pay the bank
for the loan
it took to buy them. Government jobs take 5th priority.
Sorry for the dose of cold, humble reality.
Ron
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 20:37:06 EDT
From: RTTURB0@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Taking
out cats
i know this has been asked before but i can remember the
responce..............
1. what r the pro's and cons
of gutting/removing the precats?
2. what r the pro's
and cons of gutting the main cat(if thats what its
called) or should u just
replace it with a racing cat..........so u can pass
inspection?
Jake
91 Pear White R/T TT
http://members.aol.com/rtturb0/enter.html
Blitz
SSBC, K&N Cone Filter Charger..........
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 May 1999 12:49:54 +1200
From: Kevin Clark <Kevin.Clark@hnz.co.nz>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Newbie Questions
> 5). The driver's side seat belt
has trouble retracting.
> Is there a way to
make it work better?
This is a list of the more common problems with
these cars:
1. Cracked dash vents
2. Peeling
triangle windows next to door
3. Driver's seatbelt failing to
retract
4. Hatch cover falling out of clamps
5.
Plastic residue filming on inside of windows
There are a number of ways
to fix such problems, and you
may like to check that there is not a sharp
edge where
the seat belt goes into the wall panel as I seem to
remember
some members mentioning that this can be
a
problem.
Cheers,
Kevin.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 22:05:46 EDT
From: Aso8@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: NHRA Rule
book?
Is there a copy of the NHRA Rule Book on line
someplace?
Thanks.
Arty 91 VR-4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 22:10:19 EDT
From: Aso8@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Drag Slicks
question
Does anyone know who makes drag slicks in a 17 inch size?
I
tried both Goodyear and Mickey Thompson neither makes a 17
inch.
Thanks
Arty 91 VR-4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 19:19:59 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: Team3S: Tire
Pressure (WAS: Taking out cats)
Yikes. 44 PSI is the maximum
pressure at the maximum load rating of that
tire. It is VERY doubtful
that optimal performance will be found at 44 psi,
but it largely depends on
the tire the driving conditions.
The best place to start is with the door
sticker pressure and adjust from
there to suit your tastes and performance
requirements for your
particular
tires.
Regards,
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
>
> Roger:
>
> On May 12, R.G.
said:
> > > 3). Tire pressure. The car door says 32
front, 29 rear..
> but the tires say
> > > 44 psi ..
What should I go with?
> >
> > 44psi
>
> Isn't the
44psi the _maximum_ tire pressure rating for the tire? I was
>
informed that the only time anybody runs them so high is during
autocross.
>
> -sankar
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 22:24:32 -0400
From: William Lynn Larsen <wlarsen@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Newbie Questions
I have to go with Jake on this one, sorry Roger. I
went with the tire
pressure and prematurely ruined a great set of
tires. The centers wore
out much too fast because I was running too
much pressure.
Regards,
Lynn
RTTURB0@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a
message dated 5/11/99 5:43:29 PM Central Daylight Time,
> robby@swissonline.ch writes:
>
> << 3). Tire pressure. The car door says 32
front, 29 rear.. but the tires
> say
> > 44 psi ..
What should I go with? >>
> The 44 psi is just the recomended tire
pressure for that tire
> cold...........id use 32 in front and 29 in
back............
>
> Jake (Tire Tech)
> 91 Pearl White R/T
TT
> http://members.aol.com/rtturb0/enter.html
>
Blitz SSBC, K&N Cone Filter Charger
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 19:40:33 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Taking out cats
I can speak to the pre-cat eliminator pipes. I had
a set built as did at
least one other list member.
Most places who
have seen them won't even touch the design. Period. There
are
usually two concerns cited. First the rear pre-cat is a
relatively
complex design which requires some clever and time consuming
fabrication
work. Although mine were prototypes and therefore may have
taken a bit
longer than absolutely necessary, there was significant time
invested in
building just the rear pipe. The front one is child's
play.
The other reason is that the EPA can get downright gnarly if they
catch wind
of a business producing and selling such pipes that find their way
on road
going vehicles.
As to cost, consider the price of cutting
heavy enough flanges, the labor
intensive tricky fabrication, and then add
coating to the bill. Adds up
quick. $500-$750 USD for the pair
would not be unreasonable. Note that
this does not include the
downpipe, just the pre-cat eliminators.
The complete exhaust is pretty
easy to remove and reinstall except for the
rear pre-cat. It is a real
PITA.
Frankly, I question the measurable performance increase of gutted
pre-cats,
but since noone has back to back dyno numbers or numerous
comparitive 1320'
runs, any argument one way or the other is pretty much
moot.
There may even be a solid argument against doing it. The
sudden expansion
of gases when they hit the much larger volume of a gutted
pre-cat will
likely slow down exhaust flow significantly which is a big no-no
for a
performance exhaust system. I certainly cannot provide evidence
of this
theory so I doubt discussion by itself would be
conclusive.
More than one exhaust and performance shop (who would benefit
by selling a
high flow cats, and they do sell them) have directed me that a
healthy cat
is not as restrictive as we like to think. *shrug* My
main cat is staying
put for the time
being.
Regards,
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
>
> >Along the line of Catalitic converters/
How hard would it be to
> replace the
> >precats with a piece of
straight pipe?
>
> If we are going to get into this topic, I have a
few questions:
>
> 1. Why do those furshlugginer downpipes cost so
dang much? It's just a
> piece of SS pipe with a flange and no cats,
right? Is this yet another
> ripoff?
>
> 2. Can we take all
the cats off and then get through an inspection later?
> Is it wise to
keep the old system and stick it back on when necessary? (If
> it's
anything like rotors, I should be able to change it back in 10
> minutes).
Will a VR4 pass the 49 states emissions with just one main cat?
> We don't
have emission inspections in Iowa yet, but Murphy's Law says that
> the
very second I take down my exhaust, IDOT will start inspecting.
>
>
3. How much trouble is it to take down the entire exhaust system? Does
>
anyone sell a cat-less replacement?
>
> Rich/old poop/gasp!
kof!
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 21:44:09 -0500
From: "Dennis Moore" <stealth@kiva.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Newbie Questions
Welcome to our world ;)
I've read the other
responses, and will disagree with a couple of them here.
> 2). I
took out the spare tire to clean up some pine needles that had
fallen
>
into the well, and I found two loose wires behind the rear seats.
They
were
> both female ends, and one looked like a computer keyboard
plug. Anyone
know
> what these are?
These are connectors
for a CD Changer. I *may* have one available to sell
you, if you're
interested. BTW, Pioneer used to be the OEM for these cars,
but their
current lineup of changers will not work.
> 3). Tire
pressure. The car door says 32 front, 29 rear.. but the
tires
say
> 44 psi .. What should I go with?
32/29 for
"normal" driving. The owner's manual says to add 4psi front and
back if
driving at sustained speeds of 100+. I generally set mine at
34/31,
since I'm usually running 60-80.
> 5). The driver's
side seat belt has trouble retracting. Is there a way
to
> make
it work better?
OK, I know there is a web page with a 15 minute fix to
this problem. It
involves scraping some material off of the plastic
cover which is dragging
on the belt as it tries to retract. I remember
that it's dirt simple, I
just can't remember the details or where it's
posted. Help?
Dennis Moore
stealth@kiva.net
93 Stealth ES
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 19:49:11 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Newbie Questions
Agreed.
The general rule for tire pressures is
10% increase from cold pressure when
hot and adjust from there to suit
driving conditions and preferences. The
other thing to use is a
pyrometer if you're being totally serious about
track work but that's likely
not what we're after.
If tire pressure increase exceeds 10% of the
baseline cold pressure,
increase tire pressure. Do the opposite if tire
pressure does not increase
to around 10%. The reason for this is tires
with lower pressure move around
more. The movement of the carcass
translates into heat.
For the performance minded (track use where
temperatures remain relatively
constant) you will typically want to run the
lowest pressure possible
without causing excessive tire heat. Heat will
wear tires very rapidly.
You also need to balance that against contact patch
which varies by tire
type and suspension geometry.
These guidelines
are for performance oriented tire use. Street is a
different
deal. You probably want the tires to last and to remain
fairly
consistent under a broad variety of fairly tame driving
conditions. Even
moderately hot street driving is "tame". A
little more pressure (2-3 psi)
than recommended on the door will usually do
the trick for highway driving
and door pressures are usually fine for most
legal city driving.
Regards,
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
>
> I have to go with Jake on this one, sorry
Roger. I went with the tire
> pressure and prematurely ruined a
great set of tires. The centers wore
> out much too fast because I
was running too much pressure.
>
> Regards,
>
Lynn
>
> RTTURB0@aol.com
wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 5/11/99 5:43:29 PM Central
Daylight Time,
> > robby@swissonline.ch writes:
>
>
> > << 3). Tire pressure. The car door
says 32 front, 29 rear..
> but the tires
> > say
>
> > 44 psi .. What should I go with? >>
> > The
44 psi is just the recomended tire pressure for that tire
> >
cold...........id use 32 in front and 29 in back............
>
>
> > Jake (Tire Tech)
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web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 22:25:56 -0500
From: Jeff Crabtree <wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Worthless?
-
--------------FB74F9872707F633DB167CC8
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Maybe this isn't a
technical question and to keep the S/N ratio down to
a minimum, please reply
to me directly.
Some things have happened recently in my life which have
me tossing
around the idea of getting rid of the Stealth. Alot of you
remember
that I had a fairly serious accident in November, for those of you
who
don't, please visit Eric Bowden's website. Here's a direct
link---->
1991 Dodge Stealth Twin Turbo with a nosebleed... .
The
car has subsequently been repaired and is in surprisingly good
structural
condition. The problem is that she's sporting roughly
150,000 miles and
the accident was just about the straw that broke the
camel's back. The
other party's insurance company has refused
repeatedly to admit that they
caused any mechanical damage to the
vehicle, even though the oil light is now
on at idle(see accident
description).
I tell people the car is a '91
with 150K on it and they are shocked. I
took very good care of this
car, but I have barely touched it since
November.
Anybody want
to hazzard a guess at what I could get for her if I were
to
sell?
>The engine obviously needs work
>the trannie needs
to be rebuilt(I have the parts to do it)
>Everything else is in pretty
good shape, all things considered.
I would only sell to a good home, it's
like I'm selling one of my
kids(even though I don't have any), so if anybody
here is interested in
a fixer-upper, or a (sigh) "parts" car. lemme know,
make me an offer,
you might be surprised at what I'd take.
- --
- -Jeff
Crabtree
'91 Stealth R/T Turbo(#499)......for
now
'93 Wrangler 4.0L
Sport
St. Louis, MO
-
--------------FB74F9872707F633DB167CC8
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!doctype html
public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Maybe this
isn't a technical question and to keep the S/N ratio down to
a minimum,
please reply to me directly.
<p>Some things have happened recently in
my life which have me tossing
around the idea of getting rid of the
Stealth. Alot of you remember
that I had a fairly serious accident
in November, for those of you who
don't, please visit Eric Bowden's
website. Here's a direct link---->
<a
href="http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/5095/crabtree.html">1991
Dodge
Stealth Twin Turbo with a nosebleed...</a> .
<p>The car has
subsequently been repaired and is in surprisingly good
structural
condition. The problem is that she's sporting roughly
150,000 miles
and the accident was just about the straw that broke the
camel's back.
The other party's insurance company has refused
repeatedly to admit that
they caused any mechanical damage to the vehicle,
even though the oil light
is now on at idle(see accident
description).
<p>I tell people the car is a '91 with 150K on it and
they are shocked.
I took very good care of this car, but
I have barely touched it since
November.
<p>Anybody want to hazzard
a guess at what I could get for her if I were
to sell?
<p>>The
engine obviously needs work
<br>>the trannie needs to be rebuilt(I
have the parts to do it)
<br>>Everything else is in pretty good
shape, all things considered.
<p>I would only sell to a good home, it's
like I'm selling one of my kids(even
though I don't have any), so if anybody
here is interested in a fixer-upper,
or a (sigh) "parts" car. lemme know,
make me an offer, you might be surprised
at what I'd
take.
<br>--
<br>-Jeff
Crabtree
<br> '91 Stealth R/T
Turbo(#499)......for
now
<br>
'93 Wrangler
4.0L
Sport
<br>
St.
Louis, MO
<br> </html>
-
--------------FB74F9872707F633DB167CC8--
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------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 23:33:29 EDT
From: MrX2111@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Drag
Slicks question
check nitto
X
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------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 23:51:08 EDT
From: Klusmanp@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Valve noise question
In a message dated 99-05-06 23:21:56 EDT, you
write:
<< You may already know this, but we don't have lifters. The
camshaft
follower is a bridge like affair that spans between the valve
stem and
and these lifter like units some call valve lash
limiters. They are
kept pumped up with oil, just like lifers, but
just hold up their end of
the bridge while the camshaft lobe pushes in
the middle which causes the
valve on the other end of the bridge to be
opened.
Regards,
Lynn >>
This is
just the information I was looking for! I did not, in fact, know
about this
"pseudo-rocker-arm" device.
Talked to a guy who lives here in the same
apartment complex and who used to
be an auto mechanic. Super sharp/nice guy
who drives the previous style
mustang GT. He explained that the typical
problem with hydraulic lifters is
that they will clog with oil deposits -
especially if you SWITCH oil brands.
Different oil brands will often have a
bad reaction and gum up the works.
Somehow, oil pressure is used to keep the
lifter in constant contact with the
cam lobes. Deposits will block or
restrict the supply of oil to the lash
adjuster - especially with lower oil
pressure at idle (explains why tick goes
away at higher RPM and why it is
worse when the oil is warm/thin and low
pressure)
I asked him about
the difficulty in replacing the lifters. He said I'd
probably have to pull
the timing belt and cams since most DOHC engines he had
worked on required
this (lifters are actually nothing more than extension of
the valve stem and
they sit directly under the camshaft). Your very timely
info about the
mechanism used for the valve lash adjusters in our engines
makes me believe
that it might be possible to do the job without pulling the
cams.
Furthermore, I'm thinking that simply disassembling and
cleaning/flushing
the lash adusters might correct the problem. Of course I
can imagine that
the blockage might be somewhere between the oil supply and
the lash
adjusters. In this case we would be talking about flushing whatever
oil
passageway there is in the block.
I also asked him about a product called
Rislone engine treatment. This is a
single quart of oil that has alot of
detergents. It is added during oil
change or when oil low. Both my regular
mechanic and guy next door suggest
using it - should help clear up any
gumming problems. My regular mechanic
also suggested that I NOT do the flush
treatment as it causes damage to the
engine while you are idling it for
those 5 or so minutes with the flush. Not
enough lubrication while running I
guess.
Finally, both these guys advise against doing anything drastic to
correct the
problem if I can live with the noise. Was a time when all
engines sounded
like this before the clever idea of using oil pressure to
keep constant
pressure on the cam profile (aka hydraulic lifters). When we
loose this
hydraulic pressure effect, we have a gap between the lowest point
in the cam
profile and the pushrod, lifter, or whatever mechanism rides on
the cam
profile. When the gap is taken up by the "rising" profile on the
cam, there
is a slight impact giving this tick noise. I've been assured that
there is no
damage as the parts are very robust. Hmmmmm.
I plan on
doing:
1) the Rislone engine treatment.
...and if that doesn't
work, I might:
2) opening the engine to hand clean/flush or replace the
last adjusters and
clean the oil passages leading to the lash adjusters.
This may be a bit
ambitious, but I think a good mechanic could do the
replacement job in about
5 hours as per the info on my maint. records. I'll
have to get the step by
step instructions from my mechanic (the guy is
willing to download it for me
- - what a guy!) and look at a manual (Dave
Trent has one and he doesn't mind
me mooching a look at it - what a
guy!)
I'll keep you posted
Paul
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
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------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 11 May 1999 22:37:45 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Taking out cats
>You have never had your own business, eh
old poop.
Well, as a matter of fact, I did. I sold books over the
Internet.
Sold the biz last year.
Wholesale is always
>3X cost
of materials, labor and overhead. At retail it's 2X whole
>sale.
So, I'm talking 2X cost for retail. Seems the same to me. No
wholesale
involved.
You will never get the materials down to $10
and there is
>considerable amount of labor and hand work plus the amount
you
>invested in the CNC machinery.
I'm not investing in CNC
machinery. I'll job it out to a shop.
I doubt 500 copies would sell that
fast <snip> Example,
>how many clutches sold in the group
purchase??? Not a 100, just 11.
Still, if we made 25 sets, and sold them
for $100 each, it would work, even
if we double the cost estimate.
Nobody
would get wealthy, but nobody would lose, either.
>
>But where is
the incentive for someone to go to all the effort, money
>makes the world
go around. >Sorry for the dose of cold, humble
reality.
>
Well....how about this?
If someone were to make all this
stuff, and sell it to his buddies all over
the world at a reasonable but not
ripoff profit, then the whole thing would
be a BUSINESS and one could write
off all the expenses involved, such as
attending open track events, modifying
one's VR4, and so on. Hmm...
Rich/old poop
For
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------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 May 1999 00:58:42 -0400
From: Ron Thompson <rtetetet@earthlink.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Taking out cats
> Still, if we made 25 sets, and sold them
for $100 each, it would work, even
> if we double the cost
estimate.
> Nobody would get wealthy, but nobody would lose,
either.
Set point Rich. Didn't want to shoot any idea or enthusiasm down,
just
playing Devil's advocate on why we don't see more economical parts.
As
I said, I'm "time poor", or I would have made a hood mold
already.
Don't take my post as pessimism, just realism in the face of
being
missed by the broad ax at the office today. Will Corporate
America
ever cut the losers first?
> Well....how about
this?
> If someone were to make all this stuff, and sell it to his buddies
all over
> the world at a reasonable but not ripoff profit, then the whole
thing would
> be a BUSINESS and one could write off all the expenses
involved, such as
> attending open track events, modifying one's VR4, and
so on. Hmm...
Another good point. Any takers???
For
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------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 May 1999 09:37:54 +0200
From: Roger Gerl <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Newbie Questions
> I hate to disagree with Roger the wizard,
but I think 44 psi is the maximum
> pressure. It's what I run on open
track events, and the tires are really
> stiff. On the street, you oughta
go with 32/29. Unless, of course, you are
> running on the Autobahn at
160+ mph like Roger does.
Yes, you're absolutely right, these are my
Autobahn settings :) IMHO, I'd always
runn a little more pressure and check
the wear more often.
// Roger
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------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 May 1999 01:52:06 -0400
From: Jason Barnhart <phnxgld@erols.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Drag Slicks question
Are you sure you want a slick on a
17" rim? If you went with the same total
circumfrence, then you won't
get much of a wrinkle. I would think that's why it's
difficult to find
a slick on a large rim, it'd be desirable to have a higher profile
tire so it
wrinkles alot, putting more of the tire's surface to the ground. Perhaps
an
auto crossing tire or a drag radial?
Jason
Aso8@aol.com wrote:
> Does anyone know
who makes drag slicks in a 17 inch size?
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------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 May 1999 18:29:28 +1000
From: Andrew Clark <chemist1@ozemail.com.au>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Valve noise question
Well, as I have mentioned previously my
94 VR4 has been making a ticking
noise for the last few months & after an
engine flush the ticking
returned after about 1500 miles.
It went into the
shop yesterday & today they rang & told me that 21 of
the 24 lash
adjusters were worn & the whole set are now going to be
replaced ( gotta
love that extended warrantye ). In the end the ticking
was so loud I could
hear it the cabin while I was cruising along even
with the stereo
on.
Cheers
Andrew
Australia
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------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 May 1999 01:43:31 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Newbie Q's - Common Probs
- -----Original Message-----From: Kevin
Clark <Kevin.Clark@hnz.co.nz>
|This is a
list of the more common problems with these cars:
|
| 1.
Cracked dash vents
| 2. Peeling triangle windows next to
door
| 3. Driver's seatbelt failing to retract
|
4. Hatch cover falling out of clamps
| 5. Plastic residue
filming on inside of windows
- -----------snip----------
1., 2., and
5.- are all the result of parking in the sun with the
windows tightly
closed. If the dash vents crack, you're pretty much
out of luck, but I
believe the triangle windows will be replaced by
the dealer. The
residue film is caused by baking the plasticizers
out of the dash and
upholstery. Park in the shade, or facing North
or East in the sun,
crack the windows a bit, use reflective
shields-- car interiors were not
meant to sustain temps of 140+ for
extended periods.
Better hatch
cover clamps are available from the dealer at
$1.95/pair.
The seatbelt
retraction problem is usually due to the retractors
"gunking up", and can be
fixed by cleaning the guides with a
pen-knife or blade. Of course if
you kink them up, the ironing
trick works
too...
Forrest
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------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 May 1999 04:09:56 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Newbie Q's - Tire pressure
- -----Original Message-----From:
Rice-Burner Crusher
<stealth_es@hotmail.com>
|I
own a 1993 Dodge Stealth ES, and today I was giving it a very
thorough
-
-------------snip-----------
|3). Tire pressure. The car door
says 32 front, 29 rear.. but the
tires say
|44 psi .. What should I
go with?
Lots of good and valid info has been offered, but the bottom
line is
that what FEELS best for your tires, suspension, and
driving
conditions should determine your correct tire pressure. There
is NO
right answer. Like you, I have a non-turbo, which has a
softer
suspension than the turbos... maybe at the sport setting on a
turbo
a high inflation might feel a bit rough, but on mine, with
16"
wheels and 10" wide performance tires (and regularly running
over
100mph) my car feels safest with these settings-- 44 front, 38
rear
normally, 46 front, 40 rear for trips. No, I don't run the
Autobahn
at 160 with Roger (I wish...). Yes, your tires will wear
more
quickly. But I didn't buy a sports car for economy-- I
prefer to
sacrifice some tire life for more accurate handling.
Your
preference might be the opposite. After trying 2psi increments
from
36psi through 48 psi (fronts), my car handles and corners best
with
these tires at a higher inflation, and that might be inappropriate
on
the AWD turbos with their stiffer suspensions. Also, at the
suggestion
of a former list member who used to race a FWD Stealth,
you can neutralize
understeer in corners with a 6psi difference from
front to back (instead of
the standard 3psi - in effect forcing the
rear wheels to "drag" through a
corner - I also use a -1 degree
camber on the front). That setup makes
for a very accurate
cornering dynamic at any speed.
Please note, BTW,
that with my stock 15" wheels and original
Goodyears that came with the car,
my best handling was at a much
lower 40F/35R, and I'd add a couple of psi for
trips. Each
wheel/tire combo will give different results...
Also
note that if you live where it rains a lot, adding a few pounds
of pressure
reduces the tire's "footprint" and cuts down on
hydroplaning. If your
racing in the wet, make that 6 to 10 psi!
We get lots of information here
from the turbo owners, but much less
from those of us with NTs... Why
not do all of us a favor and do
your own tests and report back to us your
experiences and the tires
you're running? If I may suggest, start your
tests at 36 front and
32 rear, and drive it that way for a day or two.
Then go up to
40/36, then 44/40, then 48/44 (just to see what it feels
like).
Once you've chosen what feels best, then vary (only) the rear
by
+2psi and then -2psi. Sorry to disagree with guys who know
more
than I do about tires-- I'm a driver and not a mechanic, so all
I
know is when the car is set up right. My guess is that you're
going
to settle in around that 44psi marked on the tires. Please let
us
know...
Forrest <-- '94 Stealth, Nitto 450 Extreme Performance
225/55/R16
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------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 May 1999 08:20:19 -0400
From: "Michael D. Romano" <mdr-nhl@worldnet.att.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Newbie Questions
> OK, I know there is a web page with a
15 minute fix to this problem. It
> involves scraping some material
off of the plastic cover which is dragging
> on the belt as it tries to
retract. I remember that it's dirt simple, I
> just can't remember
the details or where it's posted. Help?
Before taking anything
apart or cutting any plastic, try taking a razor
blade and scraping the gunky
stuff out of the shoulder loop that the belt
passes through. Mine seemed to
hang up when retracting, and this fixed it
for me. I think Gavin suggested it
at one time.
- -Mike
'93 Stealth ES w/91k
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------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 May 1999 09:32:04 -0700
From: Nick Xiong <nxiong@juno.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Gutting out cats vs. DP
Barry made a good point that there is no
conclusive data on no pre-cats
vs. having precats. I know most on this
list recommend gutting them but
has anyone done before & after
results??? what about the "seat of the
pants" feeling?
I too
think the downpipes are OVERPRICED (probly why I don't have one).
But seeing
that the RESTRICTION is not the downpipe itself but rather the
precats (right
, guys?) Does it make more sense to JUST gut the precats
& use the
STOCK DP?
and as far as emissions, what have ya'all (w/gutted cats)
experienced???
Also does gutting the precats move the powerband higher
(loss of
backpressure & therefore loss of torgue but gained HP)??
or does it
result in more immmediate torgue because the turbos can now spool
at will
w/o any restriction??? Somehow this topic never seems clear (to
me).
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------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 May 1999 08:54:29 -0500 (CDT)
From: rammer11@ix.netcom.com
Subject:
Team3S: Bolt Size Engine Stand
I just bought a new engine stand from
JEG'S. Does anyone know the size (pitch and diameter)of the
bolts that
attach the tranny to the engine? Or does anyone have an engine mounted/ How did
you mount
it? I would like to get my "spare" engine off of the floor.
RAM
92 R/T TT
Borla
K&N
Alamo Motorsports Down
Pipe
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------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 May 1999 10:00:43 -0700
From: Nick Xiong <nxiong@juno.com>
Subject: Team3S: VR4
owner blacklisted by mitsu!!!
Hi guys I forwarding this from turbodrvn@aol.com, anyone w/any
advice
contact him
> Basically, after months of fighting
different Mitsubishi dealerships
and > explaining to them that my
transmission was failing; I had finally
found
one > that would replace
my transmission within my 12month/12,000 mile
warranty (
> from last
July of 1998 when I had a new transmission put in).
Everything
was >
set and had an appointment to install a new transmission yesterday
under
> warranty. Well after I dropped my car, the service manager had
called
me
> back and stated that, "Your car has been altered by an
after-market
boost
> controller; that voids and Nulls any warranty you
have on your VR4. I
did
> not know that about your car when you
came to us last week". This
Service
> manager stated to me
that he even documented my vin# in Mitsubishi's
system
> that my car
was "altered & modified". Meaning that no other Mitsubishi
>
dealership would honor any warranty transmission. In other words, he
"black > balled" (service manager's own words) me!
>
> I don't understand?!; There are several Mitsubishi
dealers and other
> manufacturer's (such as Toyota) that allow their
customers warranty
work
even > with their modifications. But
this guy just tried to act
conservative with
> me! I truly
thought of removing my boost controller and boost gauge
before
I >
dropped the car; but when I took the car in last week and explained
my
> problem with the transmission, they had originally approved it and
made
an
> appointment for me!? But after my whole day of
planning (taking time
off
> from work) and making arrangements to drop
my VR4 off for the warranty
> transmission that I was entitled to; they
DENIED me of my right to my
> warranty transmission.
>
Anyway, I have spoken to several other VR4 owners and they stated to
find
> this Letter from GReddy that states that the GReddy Profec B
conforms to
> manufacturer's standards; and that will help my case. All I want
is
what I
> am entitled to: the new transmission under my
warranty. I was DENIED
that!
> I even tried to explain
that I had just recently installed that boost
> controller but had
transmission problems way before I installed the
>
modification.
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------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 May 1999 07:07:20 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Gutting out cats vs. DP
I think the stock downpipe is horribly
restrictive and probably a bigger
issue that the pre-cats.
The rear
turbo dumps into the downpipe at a 90 degree angle to the main
downpipe for
starters. Also there is a significant difference in the
distance
exhaust travels from the front turbo versus the rear. The
inside
diameter of the stock DP also appears to be poorly matched to the rest
of
the exhaust system.
That being said, I kind of doubt there would be
a noticable difference
between a stock DP and a decent aftermarket DP on a
stock car. I suspect
that any tangible differences would only be found
once other flow
improvements or demands had been made, like bigger turbos
etc.
Riger's dyno tests seemed to indicate that the stock vs aftermarket
DP
didn't make much difference. However I am somewhat suspect of those
dyno
runs given that the car may not have been 100% up to snuff at the
time.
Even if the dyno runs are representative, it is possible that
the
aftermarket bits move the power around to a more performance
oriented
location in the curve without actually making significantly more
power.
That would also be an improvement.
When I installed my DP I
also installed a cat back exhaust and air filter at
the same time so I can't
really speak to the effectiveness of just the DP
alone. I definitely
noticed a difference as measured against a friend's
Ferrari F355 and a local
supposedly stock Supra TT. There was better
acceleration that could be
felt in every gear and a few more MPH up top.
Stock for stock against the
F355, whoever got the best start typically won
stop light drags. The
F355 ran away on the highway. After my basic
upgrades I could pretty
much beat the F355 at will below 120 MPH. At 140
MPH the F355 simply
walked away -- a Spyder no less even with the top down.
This is with 15 PSI
of boost which I had also been running when everything
else was bone
stock. I was always able to outrun this particular Supra but
after the
mods the difference was more apparent. I don't know exactly how
much
that helps but there was a difference.
Again, since noone, especially not
even the manufacturers of these products,
can provide conslusive data, it
remains theoretical. I believe the DP is
worth it when additional mods
are in place.
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
>
> Barry made a good point that there is no conclusive
data on no pre-cats
> vs. having precats. I know most on this list
recommend gutting them but
> has anyone done before & after
results??? what about the "seat of the
> pants"
feeling?
>
> I too think the downpipes are OVERPRICED (probly why I
don't have one).
> But seeing that the RESTRICTION is not the downpipe
itself but rather the
> precats (right , guys?) Does it make more
sense to JUST gut the precats
> & use the STOCK DP?
>
>
and as far as emissions, what have ya'all (w/gutted cats)
experienced???
>
> Also does gutting the precats move the powerband
higher (loss of
> backpressure & therefore loss of torgue but gained
HP)?? or does it
> result in more immmediate torgue because the
turbos can now spool at will
> w/o any restriction??? Somehow this
topic never seems clear (to me).
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------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 May 1999 09:53:12 -0500
From: Wayne <wala@hypertech-inc.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Bolt Size Engine Stand
12mm X 1.75
At 08:54 AM
5/12/99 , you wrote:
>Does anyone know the size
>(pitch and
diameter)of the
>bolts that attach the tranny to the engine?
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------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 May 1999 08:04:13 -0700
From: Yoss <yoss@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Gutting out cats vs. DP
On May 12, Nick Xiong said:
> Also does
gutting the precats move the powerband higher (loss of
> backpressure
& therefore loss of torgue but gained HP)?? or does it
> result
in more immmediate torgue because the turbos can now spool at will
> w/o
any restriction??? Somehow this topic never seems clear (to me).
I
believe the issue of backpressure is moot for turbos. The more the
pressure
differential between the input and output side of the turbos, the
faster spool
up time and better performance. Am I right?
I would
like to know which of the following options provides the better
cost/hp
ratio: gutting pre-cats vs. less restrictive aftermarket catback
exhaust
system.
Thanks!
- -sankar
- --
*******************************************************************************
Riker:
"The point is that I didn't get the chance."
Ro: "'The point is', with all
due respect, Commander, you are trying to turn me
into your idea of
the model officer."
- --Riker and Ro, "Conundrum", Stardate
45494.2
*******************************************************************************
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------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 May 1999 08:18:46 -0700
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Gutting out cats vs. DP
Sankar...
Not sure you mean
"moot" (insignificant). The backpressure issue IS
significant, particularly
with larger turbos, more boost, etc. The ideal
would be to have NO exhaust
system, thus eliminating backpressure. The
result is less torque at the
bottom end, more hp at the top end. It's a
choice. You can't have both
(unless you add nitrous for the bottom end).
Now, for cost vs gain,
gutting all three cats is inexpensive if it's your
time and energy. The gain
is significant, again, particularly if you're
running higher than stock
boost. The catback system is mostly for sound and
weight reduction. The
restrictions in the system are at the front end (all
three cats and the
downpipe) although I can argue that ANY reduction in
diameter on a 3" system
is less than ideal (so are bends, but it would be
VERY difficult to run
straight pipes on our cars).
Looking forward...Chris
1995 Glacier
Pearl White VR4 (w/blown turbo seal mod)
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Yoss [mailto:yoss@aracnet.com]
Sent: Wednesday,
May 12, 1999 8:04 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Gutting out cats vs. DP
On May 12, Nick Xiong
said:
> Also does gutting the precats move the powerband higher (loss
of
> backpressure & therefore loss of torgue but gained HP)?? or
does it
> result in more immmediate torgue because the turbos can now
spool at will
> w/o any restriction??? Somehow this topic never
seems clear (to me).
I believe the issue of backpressure is moot for
turbos. The more the
pressure
differential between the input and
output side of the turbos, the faster
spool
up time and better
performance. Am I right?
I would like to know which of the
following options provides the better
cost/hp ratio: gutting pre-cats vs.
less restrictive aftermarket catback
exhaust system.
Thanks!
-
-sankar
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 May 1999 10:35:17 -0500
From: S J Cowan <sjc0u812@juno.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Newbie Questions
Ron:
>4. This will sound strange; the
belt is too limp. Pull it all the way
>out and iron it, yes iron it with
some starch at the Nylon setting on
>the iron so you don't melt it. It is
so limp that it folds and and
>wrinkles so it binds and won't retract. The
other way is to remove
>the
>inner trim panels and increase the
sprig tension on the retractor is
>it pulls harder, but it will pull
harder on you when you drive.
Or you can do like me, go in and b*tch, and
they replaced mine free under
Mitsu warranty. (I'm assuming your car is
under 100K miles.)
Best
regards,
SJ
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------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 May 1999 10:06:09 -0700
From: "Terry Swift" <tlswift@hotbot.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: VR4 owner blacklisted by mitsu!!!
Doesn't surprise me one single
bit. They (Mitsu) will do anything from having to honor an agreement they
put in place themselves. They have proven that over and over again
especially with the 3si.
My advice is to have the guy take all his
documentation on when he first started having problems with the tranny
(hopefully he visited a dealership and got some type of documents) and the
receipt for the boost controller and show them that it happened prior.
Then get on the horn / fax to Mitsu Corp. both here in the USA and Japan and lay
it all out and DEMAND they stand up to THEIR warranty. If that doesn't
work, then the BBB and other Consumer Agencies. Another resort is to get
ahold of the local TV stations that do Consumer Action type items and have them
do a report on it (that is if it's up and up). Alot of publicity like this
in the news will usually get some action - especially when it looks bad for the
Dealerships / Manufacturer.
- --
On Wed, 12 May 1999
10:00:43 Nick Xiong wrote:
>Hi guys I forwarding this from turbodrvn@aol.com, anyone w/any
advice
>contact him
>
>> Basically, after months of
fighting different Mitsubishi dealerships
>and > explaining to them
that my transmission was failing; I had finally
>found
>one >
that would replace my transmission within my 12month/12,000 mile
>warranty
(
>> from last July of 1998 when I had a new transmission put in).
>Everything
>was > set and had an appointment to install a new
transmission yesterday
>under
>> warranty. Well after I
dropped my car, the service manager had called
>me
>> back and
stated that, "Your car has been altered by an after-market
>boost
>> controller; that voids and Nulls any warranty you have on your
VR4. I
>did
>> not know that about your car when you came
to us last week". This
>Service
>> manager stated to
me that he even documented my vin# in Mitsubishi's
>system
>>
that my car was "altered & modified". Meaning that no other
Mitsubishi
>
>> dealership would honor any warranty
transmission. In other words, he
>"black > balled"
(service manager's own words) me!
>>
>> I
don't understand?!; There are several Mitsubishi dealers and other
>>
manufacturer's (such as Toyota) that allow their customers warranty
>work
>even > with their modifications. But this guy just tried to
act
>conservative with
>> me! I truly thought of removing
my boost controller and boost gauge
>before
>I > dropped the
car; but when I took the car in last week and explained
>my
>>
problem with the transmission, they had originally approved it and
made
>an
>> appointment for me!? But after my whole day of
planning (taking time
>off
>> from work) and making arrangements
to drop my VR4 off for the warranty
>> transmission that I was
entitled to; they DENIED me of my right to my
>> warranty
transmission.
>> Anyway, I have spoken to several other
VR4 owners and they stated to
>find > this Letter from GReddy that
states that the GReddy Profec B
>conforms to
>> manufacturer's
standards; and that will help my case. All I want is
>what I
>> am entitled to: the new transmission under my warranty.
I was DENIED
>that!
>> I even tried to explain that I had
just recently installed that boost
>> controller but had transmission
problems way before I installed the
>>
modification.
>
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You
don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get
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>or
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------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 May 1999 10:17:28 -0700
From: "Terry Swift" <tlswift@hotbot.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Newbie Q's - Common Probs
See comments below
- --
On
Wed, 12 May 1999 01:43:31 Bob Forrest wrote:
>-----Original
Message-----From: Kevin Clark <Kevin.Clark@hnz.co.nz>
>|This
is a list of the more common problems with these cars:
>|
>|
1. Cracked dash vents
>| 2. Peeling triangle windows
next to door
>| 3. Driver's seatbelt failing to
retract
>| 4. Hatch cover falling out of clamps
>|
5. Plastic residue filming on inside of
windows
>-----------snip----------
>
>1., 2., and 5.- are all
the result of parking in the sun with the
>windows tightly closed.
If the dash vents crack, you're pretty much
>out of luck, but I believe
the triangle windows will be replaced by
>the dealer. The residue
film is caused by baking the plasticizers
>out of the dash and
upholstery. Park in the shade, or facing North
>or East in the sun,
crack the windows a bit, use reflective
>shields-- car interiors were not
meant to sustain temps of 140+ for
>extended periods.
Best thing
for cleaning windows I've found that has the film build-up is called "Glass Wax"
found at Ace Hardware in the Home Cleaning Supplies area. It's almost like
waxing your windows - does good job and lasts longer than Windex. Also
doesn't leave the streaks like other window cleaners.
I don't see how the
vents break the way they do. Mine are broken in like 2 locations on each
vent. I'd say another poor design/build.
>
>Better hatch
cover clamps are available from the dealer
at
>$1.95/pair.
>
>The seatbelt retraction problem is usually
due to the retractors
>"gunking up", and can be fixed by cleaning the
guides with a
>pen-knife or blade. Of course if you kink them up,
the ironing
>trick works
too...
>
>Forrest
>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
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------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 May 1999 13:40:37 -0700
From: Jeff Schwartz <jeff.schwartz@citicorp.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Gutting out cats
Does anyone know if you gut the pre-cats,
will we still pass
New York State instpection?
Thanks,
- --
Jeff Schwartz
1995 Panama Green Pearl VR4
Borla, K&N FIPK,
Magnecors
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------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 May 1999 10:49:34 -0700
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Gutting out cats
Just a short note on gutting your cats (precats,
main cat) ....Dyno tests in Europe
indicate that gutting your cats have a
marginal, if any, effect upon 3S TT's which are
running over 400hp with stock
exhaust systems. These vehicles are equipped with only a
BC and K&N. If
you want to increase your HP over and above this, then larger injectors
and
turbos are the next step, after which you may wish to consider an exhaust
system
upgrade to compliment the new mods. However, gutting cats on an
essentially stock
vehicle (stock turbos, stock injectors) is foolish and will
likely net you more problems
than you want (Immissions Inspections) ofr
marginal to negliable top end performance,
and poorer bottom end. The
same holds true for the cat back system...for performance
your bucks are
better spent elsewhere. Unless you're going to go wild and hairy with
fuel
and turbos, leave the cats alone. Replacing them after the fact can be
veeeery
expensive.
Best
Darc
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------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 12 May 1999 11:02:13 -0700
From: Yoss <yoss@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Gutting out cats
On May 12, wce@bc.sympatico.ca said:
> Just a
short note on gutting your cats (precats, main cat) ....Dyno tests in
>
Europe indicate that gutting your cats have a marginal, if any, effect
upon
> 3S TT's which are running over 400hp with stock exhaust systems.
Hm..an 80hp increase with just an open-air filter and a boost
controller?
This sounds too good to be true. If this were indeed true,
then I know what
my next mod is gonna be, 'cuz I already have a K&N
filter in an otherwise
stock (performance-wise) car.
- -sankar
'97
VR4
Mods: K&N FIPK, RS*R downsprings, SS brake lines, Porterfield Rotors
and R4S
brake pads in front, SpeedBleeder, weatherstrip airflow mod, Michelin
Pilot
XGT Z4 tires.
- --
*******************************************************************************
Welcome
to the bridge, Mr. LaForge.
-- Picard, "Contagion",
stardate
42609.1
*******************************************************************************
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End
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