--
From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
(Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Team3S Digest V1 #158
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
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Team3S Digest
Wednesday, April 21 1999 Volume 01 :
Number
158
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:17:16 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Track report
>
>DO I understand this correct? The
Powerslots rotor hub actually separated
>from the swept area?
Yes
>If so, consider the KVR rotors to have the same
>problem.
>Maybe a new rotor design would be in order here.
(that is what I am
looking >in to) I have a couple different ideas,
>including a thicker rotor.
Have you tried the Porterfield rotors? As
I understand it, they are stock
rotors that have been heat treated, then
drilled.
Rich/old poop
>
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:08:40 +0200
From: Matthews <matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Adventures in braking
Merritt wrote:
>
> Roger
Gerl wrote:
> >
> >> 2. Install a brake proportioning
valve, and move more braking power to the
> >> rears. At present,
the rears are more or less useless.
I've thought about brake
proportioning, too, as I'm nearly through my
third pair of front pads yet
still have the ORIGINAL rear pads with
plenty of meat on them. On the
other hand, I've been having a bit of an
oversteer problem when braking in
turns (I know, I know, no braking in
turns!) and I think more rear bias would
make this problem worse.
Still, overall braking effectiveness should improve
if the rears do more
of their share.
According to the shop manual, the
"proportioning valve pressure"
specification is (2nd gen):
split
point: 3.75 - 4.25 MPa or 533 - 604 psi
output
pressure: 5.23 - 5.73 MPa or 744 - 815 psi
[input pressure] 8.0 (1,138)
<- not sure what this means
I wonder if this is easily adjustable and
if the ABS could accomodate a
change?
> >I'm not sure about
the 94
> >but what kind of calipers do you have in the rear. The first
gen had the
> >one-piston caliper while the newer and EU cars got the
stronger 2-piston
> types.
>
> I don't know if it's a one- or
two-piston caliper, but it is definitely
> smaller than the front
calipers. Do you think it's possible to install a
> set of big front
calipers on the rear?
Here's what the shop manual says about the brakes
(2nd gen):
Front
- -----
Type: Rigid caliper, 4-piston, ventilated
disc (M-R76Z)
Disc effective diameter: 271 mm / 10.7"
Disc thickness: 30
mm / 1.18"
Pad thickness: 15 mm / .59"
Rear
- ----
Type: Rigid
caliper, 2-piston, ventilated disc (M-R68X)
Disc effective diameter: 250 mm /
9.8"
Disc thickness: 20 mm / .79"
Pad thickness: 15 mm /
.60"
> >> 3. Install a water cooling system in the air
ducts.
> >> The water would vaporize in the air flow, and help cool
down the brakes.
> >
> >Heat the things up like hell and spray
water on it can warp them immediatly.
> >This is not the same like
driving in rain as the humidity and ambient is
> >different. Have you
seen any racing car that needs such stuff ?
Sounds like a bad idea to me
as well (as bad as injecting water into the
engine intake?), unless only a
slight amount of water is used and it is
well-vaporized (more like humid
air!). I agree with Roger that spraying
water directly on the rotors
would cause premature warping and possibly
even reduce braking effectiveness
if too much water ends up on the swept
area.
> I also hate to
spend lots of money and get no results. We've heard horror
> stories right
here on the list of guys spending $2000 and having rotors
> crack. Brad's
$1500 Porsche system is sounding better all the time, but
> even his KVR
rotors break. George Kuo's Porterfield rotors are looking
> good at
this point, because they are stock rotors that have been heat
> treated
and then drilled. Maybe a cost-effective combination would be
>
Brad's Porsche kit with Porterfield rotors.
Roger's right about there
being no substitute for good parts, but I'm
definitely with you on the
cost. I think the stock 2nd gen. calipers
are adequate but I am
interested in finding better rotors and pads. Did
Brad say he has seen
KVR rotors break or that he suspects that they may
suffer from the same
problem as the Powerslots? Can any of these
slotted, dimpled,
cross-drilled or otherwise "enhanced" rotor surfaces
be turned if
necessary? Is there any way to have good brakes that don't
have to warm
up first? That wear well? Etc. Lots of variables.
At
any rate, I am about to have all four stock rotors turned (for the
second and
probably last time) and will probably install fresh Abex
semi-metalic pads
from Accelerated Accessories this time around. As
this setup will
unavoidably end up in my current worn, warped state
sooner than later, I want
to be ready with a SOLUTION for next time
around.
Great
discussion! Can't wait to hear more road racing reports with
different
setups. Thanx...
- --
Jim Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de
(64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
***
3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet
Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active
Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0
bar @ 72% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Blitz Blow-Off
Valve
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix
brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, Top
Speed: 168mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
1 Feb
99 Dyno Session: 406 SAE HP, 354 lb-ft torque
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------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:30:49 -0700
From: "Dave Allison" <dallison@siebel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Boost ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
Heya,
Since UPRD was not
able(willing?) to install my Magnecore wires and
NGK plugs, I have not yet
gapped my plugs to the proper setting. I DO notice
stumbling when at WOT, but
I'm curious if the misfiring is actually causing
harm to my engine. Other
than the obvious performance impact, am I damaging
anything by running like a
bat outta hell without gapping the plugs?
Thanks.
Dave
Allison
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Roger Gerl [mailto:robby@swissonline.ch]
>Sent:
Tuesday, April 20, 1999 1:18 AM
>To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>Subject:
Re: Team3S: Boost ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
>
>BTW, don't forget to regap the
plugs.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:34:55 -0700
From: "Dave Allison" <dallison@siebel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Adventures in braking-1999
Well Barry,
It just so happens
my wear indicator is screeching at me to replace
my brakes. I am now looking
to drop a load of change into my brakes. Perhaps
I CAN serve as a test setup
for the list. What should I buy that is
somewhere under $1500? Is it
reasonable to assume I can find something
acceptable in this price
range?
Thanks.
Dave
- -----Original Message-----
From:
Barry E. King [mailto:beking@home.com]
Sent: Monday, April
19, 1999 8:54 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Adventures in braking-1999
I'd love to see an effective and
affordable braking package for our cars
too. I just think there are
practical limitations which may come to odds
with expectations. I also
think that the near ideal setup is already
available, but I guess it would
have to be tested under the conditions you
encounter. I know putting
together a test setup for $1000 isn't exactly
pocket change, but maybe
something like this would be achievable with some
pulls and tugs here and
there?
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:37:36 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Adventures in braking
>
>I've thought about brake
proportioning, too, as I'm nearly through my
>third pair of front pads yet
still have the ORIGINAL rear pads with
>plenty of meat on them.
Me too. Three sets of pads: one stock, two Performance Friction
carbon
metallics, and still only one set of rears.
One of the Porsche
club instructors came up with the brake proportioning
idea. That indicates it
may be a universal problem among ABS or mostly
stock (non-race-prepared)
cars.
>On the other hand, I've been having a bit of
an
>oversteer problem when braking in turns (I know, I know, no braking
in
>turns!) and I think more rear bias would make this problem worse.
>Still, overall braking effectiveness should improve if the rears do
more
>of their share.
Maybe the reason you are braking in turns is
because you can't get your
braking done prior to entry. I know that
Oshit! feeling when you hit your
proper braking point but the brakes
are going away, so you overshoot the
entry, and have to stay on the hot,
spongy brakes to get the speed down. I
try to stay in a straight line,
though, even if it means messing up the
entry. Having more effective rear
brakes would surely help.
OTOH, if you are regularly braking in the
middle of turns, you have a
completely different problem that is not related
to brakes. I'd talk to an
instructor about it.
>
>According to the shop manual, the "proportioning valve pressure"
<snip>
>I wonder if this is easily adjustable and if the ABS could
accomodate a
>change?
>
I don't know. Seems if they are
publishing pressures, SOMETHING must be
adjustable in
there.
>
>> >> 3. Install a water cooling system in the air
ducts.
>> >> The water would vaporize in the air flow, and help
cool down the brakes.
>
>Sounds like a bad idea to me as well (as
bad as injecting water into the
>engine intake?), unless only a slight
amount of water is used and it is
>well-vaporized (more like humid
air!). I agree with Roger that spraying
>water directly on the
rotors would cause premature warping and possibly
>even reduce braking
effectiveness if too much water ends up on the swept
>area.
OK, I
agree with both of you.
But what about injecting up front, and letting high
speed air flow vaporize
it?
>
>
>Roger's right about there
being no substitute for good parts, but I'm
>definitely with you on the
cost. I think the stock 2nd gen. calipers
>are adequate but I am
interested in finding better rotors and pads. Did
>Brad say he has
seen KVR rotors break or that he suspects that they may
>suffer from the
same problem as the Powerslots?
That was my
impression.
>
>At any rate, I am about to have all four stock
rotors turned (for the
>second and probably last time) and will probably
install fresh Abex
>semi-metalic pads from Accelerated Accessories this
time around. As
>this setup will unavoidably end up in my current
worn, warped state
>sooner than later, I want to be ready with a SOLUTION
for next time
>around.
I'm leaning toward the Porterfield rotors,
unless I hear something better
from the other road
racers.
>
>Great discussion! Can't wait to hear more road
racing reports with
>different setups. Thanx...
So far, we've
eliminated three rotors from consideration: PowerSlots and
KVRs (for breaking
in half) and Stillens (for cracking). Not bad for one
day of
discussion.
Ain't this a great list?
Rich/old poop
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:36:01 +0200
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?="
<vr4@bahnhof.se>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Boost ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
I guess that it's not that bad for the engine
to stumble little. Ofcourse it's not good either. (the unburnt fuel will
actually cool the engine)
But your precats will be hurt or killed, but
who cares? You will probably gut them anyway to get better performance. Right?
:)
/Mikael http://www.3000gt.nu
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Dave Allison <dallison@siebel.com>
Other
than the obvious performance impact, am I damaging
>anything by running
like a bat outta hell without gapping the
plugs?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Dave Allison
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:44:05 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Adventures in braking-1999
> It just so happens my wear
indicator is screeching at me to replace
>my brakes. I am now looking to
drop a load of change into my brakes. Perhaps
>I CAN serve as a test setup
for the list. What should I buy that is
>somewhere under $1500? Is it
reasonable to assume I can find something
>acceptable in this price
range?
Hang on just a little longer if you can. I think we are getting
somewhere.
If you absolutely MUST change immediately, based on the
information we've
gathered so far I would go for Brad's Porsche calipers and
brake upgrade
kit but with a set of Porterfield rotors (instead of the
breakable KVRs),
and whatever pad Brad or Porterfield recommends for the
combo. That should
cost you right about $1500.
But if you can hang on,
at the rate we're going we may get to the perfect
setup in a day or so. There
are several road racers who have not yet
contributed to the
discussion.
Rich/old poop/94 VR4
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:49:03 -0700
From: Nick Xiong <nxiong@juno.com>
Subject: Team3S: VR4
spare
anybody know here to get just a spare tire? I called around
and NO ONE
carries the spares, mine's a little
worn.
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------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:49:56 -0700
From: Yoss <yoss@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
VR4 spare
On Apr 20, Nick Xiong said:
> anybody know here to get
just a spare tire? I called around and NO ONE
> carries the spares,
mine's a little worn.
The spare seems to be not too bad (I used my spare
for close to three weeks,)
but given the fact that it takes ages to get a set
of tires ordered and
delivered for our cars, I've decided not to go the spare
tire route but
instead ended up saving one of the less wornout tires from my
last
replacement for use as spare.
To answer your specific question,
did you try tirerack.com? The spare is a
tire afterall... :-)
-
-sankar
- --
*******************************************************************************
Riker:
"That isn't necessary. The ship will clean itself."
Brenna: "Well, good
for the bloody ship."
- --Riker and Brenna O'Dell, "Up The Long Ladder",
Stardate
42
*******************************************************************************
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:57:26 -0500
From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Track report- Rotor problem
Okay, I understand that the rotor
& hub area separated. On several
different rotor assemblies. KVR
and Power Slot.
This begs a couple of questions.
1. Is the rotor
design defective? Meaning are the cooling holes that
Mitsubishi designed
defective? Or is there some problem with the aftermarket
castings?
2.
Could something else be causing the problem? Say a flexing hub? Worn
wheel
bearing etc? When in a turn, we are putting a very large load on
the
hub. Could the hub be flexing enough to break the rotor? If
so, what would
the fix be?
Any further thoughts?
I refuse to
believe that only 3-4 of the people on this list are the only
ones generating
enough force to shatter a rotor. Could their cars have a
problem not
seen by ordinary check lists?
> Brad
Check out my home
page: http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
>
E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com
ICQ# 3612682
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:07:29 -0500
From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: VR4 spare
Most spares are never used. Go to your local
wrecking yard and pick one up.
Look for a 94+ 3000 VR4 spare, they are
aluminum and will save a good 20lbs
over the stamped steel spare.
>
Brad
Check out my home page: http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
>
E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com
ICQ# 3612682
, mine's a little worn.
The spare seems to be
not too bad (I used my spare for close to three
weeks,)
but given the fact
that it takes ages to get a set of tires ordered and
delivered for our cars,
I've decided not to go the spare tire route but
instead ended up saving one
of the less wornout tires from my last
replacement for use as
spare.
To answer your specific question, did you try tirerack.com?
The spare is a
tire afterall... :-)
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:12:25 +0200
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?="
<vr4@bahnhof.se>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Adventures in braking-1999
(Long post)
Hi,
As you
guys probably know Roger and I are using the Bremsa discs. Roger are using the
EU 314mm discs and I are using the US 298mm discs.
We both use the Orange
Pagids right now (Roger will test another setup later)
We both use the
stock 4 piston callipers. They are exactly the same but mounted slightly
different to fit the different disc sizes.
We also use custom made
stainless braided brakelines (Made in Sweden).
I start with the brake
lines. They probably doesn't improve the "real" braking but it sure improves the
"feel", it's much easier to apply exactly the right pressure to the brakes now.
The sponginess is gone, especially when the brakes are on the limit to be
overheated. I'm not sure but I imagine that the braided lines help the brake
fluid to cool down. Well spent money! (~150$)
The Bremsa setup is
expensive but I guess that it's well worth it and when the discs have to be
changed the cost will be less due to the seperate disc and hub solution. I
haven't tested this setup on an official race track but I have tested it alot
anyway. I have tested to brake from 200km/h-0 and then accelerated up to 200
again and back down to 0 again. over and over.. The first time it's just stops.
The second time it's stops allot better and now it really "sqeeals" from the
brakes. 3'rd time even better braking. No fading at all ! I'm not sure if I can
do this 10 times but I don't think that there is many courses where you have to
brake from 200-0.
The quality on the Bremsas are great! Even after a
extremely salty winter in Stockholm, Sweden they look like new, both the rotors
and the anodized blue aluminum hubs :)
When the brakes are cold and
braking very light in slow speeds there is a slightly vibrating feel in the
brakes. But as soon as I apply more pressure or speed they feel perfect. No
warpage what so ever.
The Pagid actually look like new after a year of
daily stop and go traffic and alot of late night stupid unofficial races.
(totally ~10000 miles) The only drawpack is the brakedust, it's
horrible!
Ofcourse there are better brakes out there, but for the
money I think that this is the best upgrade. The stock callipers are good enough
if they get some help from really good rotors and pads. If you look for
something better you will probably have to spent another 1000 bucks or
two.
Ohhh I almost forgot... I polished my callipers so they look like
crome and with the open design on my rims and the blue anodized hubs and drilled
and slotted rotors it looks so great that the money was almost worth it even if
they performed less than stock :).
Hope it helps,
Mikael Akesson
http://www.3000gt.nu
-
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Allison <dallison@siebel.com>
To: 'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date:
Tuesday, April 20, 1999 6:32 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Adventures in
braking-1999
>Well Barry,
>
> It just so happens my
wear indicator is screeching at me to replace
>my brakes. I am now looking
to drop a load of change into my brakes. Perhaps
>I CAN serve as a test
setup for the list. What should I buy that is
>somewhere under $1500? Is
it reasonable to assume I can find something
>acceptable in this price
range?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Dave
>
>-----Original
Message-----
>From: Barry E. King [mailto:beking@home.com]
>Sent: Monday,
April 19, 1999 8:54 PM
>To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>Subject:
RE: Team3S: Adventures in braking-1999
>
>I'd love to see an
effective and affordable braking package for our cars
>too. I just
think there are practical limitations which may come to odds
>with
expectations. I also think that the near ideal setup is
already
>available, but I guess it would have to be tested under the
conditions you
>encounter. I know putting together a test setup for
$1000 isn't exactly
>pocket change, but maybe something like this would be
achievable with some
>pulls and tugs here and
there?
>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:27:35 -0700
From: Ken Middaugh <middaugh@omega.gat.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Adventures in braking-1999
Well, we've heard that the
Stillen, Powerslot, and KVR rotors cannot
survive on our 3800lb beasts under
extreme performance conditions. (Too
bad since I have a pair of KVR
awaiting installation.) That leaves
Porterfield as the last reasonably
priced rotor to test unless anyone
can think of other rotors. I think a
pair of their cross-drilled and
cryogenically treated rotors are about
$320. Mated with a good set of
pads (Pagid?), that would be about
$520. If it holds up to a weekend of
Rich's racing, then it could be a
fairly good inexpensive upgrade.
The next step would be to try the higher
priced rotors. Roger seems
very happy with Bremsa. Are there any
others to consider?
Brad's Porsche/Brembo caliper kit could be used with
any 320mm x 30mm
(??) rotor. The Porterfield and Bremsa rotors could
be good choices.
Brad is also investigating another (secret?) rotor, perhaps
a Porsche?
Do tell Brad ;)
The Stillen Brembo kit just has too many
problems -- rotors, bolts.
$2200 for great calipers and mounting brackets
seems too expensive.
The Movit kit looks great but is close to
$3000.
For cooling, maybe someone with a little initiative &
machining
capability could manufacture new backing plates with a 2" nipple
for
fastening ductining too. All you'ld have to do is cut a hole and
weld
on a 2-3" piece of pipe that a hose could be clamped to. That way
one
could feed air to the rotors with the plate in place. Actually it
would
be better to determine the best cooling option by measuring
caliper
temperatures with a thermocouple as follows:
stock, backing plates
on, no cooling ducts
backing plates off, no cooling ducts,
backing plates
off with cooling ducts
special backing plate with attached cooling
ducts
For testing, one might even want to try a water mist nozzel at the
front
of the air duct!
This is a great thread and I hope new, better
braking alternatives can
be found.
- --
How many roads must a man
travel down before he admits he is lost!
Ken Middaugh
General
Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:39:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Kuo <amkreadgto@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Adventures in braking-1999
- --- Ken Middaugh <middaugh@omega.gat.com>
wrote:
> That leaves
> Porterfield as the last reasonably priced
rotor to
> test unless anyone
> can think of other rotors. I
think a pair of their
> cross-drilled and
> cryogenically treated
rotors are about $320.
Hmm.. are you sure that's the correct $
amount?? I remember paying only
around $250.. or maybe they discounted for me
cuz I look like a
starving, budget
racer..
George
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------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:11:40 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Adventures in braking-1999
At 10:27 AM 4/20/99 -0700, you
wrote:
>Well, we've heard that the Stillen, Powerslot, and KVR rotors
cannot
>survive on our 3800lb beasts under extreme performance
conditions. (Too
>bad since I have a pair of KVR awaiting
installation.) That leaves
>Porterfield as the last reasonably
priced rotor to test unless anyone
>can think of other rotors. I
think a pair of their cross-drilled and
>cryogenically treated rotors are
about $320. Mated with a good set of
>pads (Pagid?), that would be
about $520. If it holds up to a weekend of
>Rich's racing, then it
could be a fairly good inexpensive upgrade.
Yes, this is looking like a
good solution.
>For cooling, maybe someone with a little initiative
& machining
>capability could manufacture new backing plates with a 2"
nipple for
>fastening ductining too. All you'ld have to do is cut a
hole and weld
>on a 2-3" piece of pipe that a hose could be clamped
to. That way one
>could feed air to the rotors with the plate in
place.
Great idea!
>Actually it would
>be
better to determine the best cooling option by measuring
caliper
>temperatures with a thermocouple as follows:
> stock,
backing plates on, no cooling ducts
> backing plates off, no cooling
ducts,
> backing plates off with cooling ducts
> special backing
plate with attached cooling ducts
>For testing, one might even want to try
a water mist nozzel at the front
>of the air duct!
Roger already
suggested installing a thermcouple. Where would be the best
place to attach
it? I suspect perhaps on the altered backing plate, because
it would already
be off for welding, and it gets about as close to the
rotor and caliper as
anything else. But where specifically? Near the
caliper? Away from the
cooling duct? Another possibility would be a small
infrared sensor, because
we could point it at any target -- the rotor,
caliper, or
whatever.
Rich/old poop
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:02:46 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Track report- Rotor problem
At 11:57 AM 4/20/99 -0500, Brad
wrote:
>Okay, I understand that the rotor & hub area separated.
On several
>different rotor assemblies. KVR and Power Slot. >This begs
a couple of
questions.
>
>1. Is the rotor design defective?
Meaning are the cooling holes that
>Mitsubishi designed defective?
These are not Mitsu parts.
>Or is there some problem with the
aftermarket
>castings?
Probably
>2. Could something else
be causing the problem? Say a flexing hub? Worn
>wheel bearing etc?
When in a turn, we are putting a very large load on the
>hub. Could
the hub be flexing enough to break the rotor? If so, what would
>the
fix be?
Both times I broke PowerSlots, I was braking in a straight line.
But you may be on to something: Topeka is a left hand track, so most of
the
cornering is on the right front, and both times I broke right front
rotors.
OTOH, they both broke in the first session, so we can't blame it
on
excessive wear. The left rotors get considerable strain too, but they
last
the entire weekend.
>
>I refuse to believe that only
3-4 of the people on this list are the only
>ones generating enough force
to shatter a rotor.
We haven't heard from all the road racers
yet.
Topeka is a road course with lotsa turns. OTOH, the folks who run in
Texas
use the speedway, so they are up on the banks at very high speeds much
of
the time, and have fewer hard-braking turns to deal with. They do have
to
bring 'er down from some very high speeds, but this is probably easier
on
the brakes than a whole bunch of bang-on-the-brakes slow 3rd gear turns.
Last year, when we used the NASCAR B course at Topeka (same one the
trucks
use), the track was mighty easy on my pads, because they took out many
of
the hard-braking turns.
Could their cars have
a
>problem not seen by ordinary check lists?
At least two of us
share one problem: Our rear brakes are not contributing
their fair share of
the braking effort.
Rich/old poop
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:22:44 -0700
From: Ken Middaugh <middaugh@omega.gat.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Adventures in braking-1999
George Kuo wrote:
>
>
--- Ken Middaugh <middaugh@omega.gat.com>
wrote:
>
> > That leaves
> > Porterfield as the last
reasonably priced rotor to
> > test unless anyone
> > can
think of other rotors. I think a pair of their
> > cross-drilled
and
> > cryogenically treated rotors are about $320.
>
>
Hmm.. are you sure that's the correct $ amount?? I remember paying only
>
around $250.. or maybe they discounted for me cuz I look like a
>
starving, budget racer..
From memory, I think each rotor is about $70,
cross drilling is $50
each, and cryogenic treatment is $40 each.
- --
How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is
lost!
Ken Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619)
455-4510
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:25:06 -0500
From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Track report- Rotor problem
I understand that they are not
"Mitsubishi parts" However the casting is
very similar to Mitsubishi
factory rotor. I suspect the Aftermarket used
Mitsubishi design specs
to cast their parts.
Keep in mind on the KVR rotors. Dave is using
the Porsche/Brembo calipers,
and had about 4 square inches more pad contact
than the stock calipers. The
fact that the KVR rotors broke could be
that the stopping forces exceeded
the design specification.
What If we
slotted the stock Mitsubishi rotor? The rotors can be had for
about
80.00 each, and add 40.00 per for slotting this is not a
bad
alternative. I suspect if we slotted the Mitsu OE rotors, we would
run into
the same problem.
Dave Broke a left hand rotor. Not sure what
turn or track he was going into.
The KVR rotor broke on the 15th lap. I
guess they are 14 laps better than
powerslot <GRIN>
Dave will be
running with stock Mitsu rotors this week. Hopefully those
hold the
pressure.
On a different note:
KVR shipped another rotor free of
charge. They want the old rotor back to
check for casting
problems. KVR is very professional, and handled the claim
very
efficiently. The fact that the rotor broke was not taken
lightly. I
am sure KVR will correct the problem if in fact there was
one. I suspect
there was just a defect in the casting.
>
Brad
Check out my home page: http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
>
E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com
ICQ# 3612682
that
>Mitsubishi designed defective?
These
are not Mitsu parts.
>Or is there some problem with the
aftermarket
>castings?
Probably
>2. Could something else
be causing the problem? Say a flexing hub? Worn
>wheel bearing etc?
When in a turn, we are putting a very large load on the
>hub. Could
the hub be flexing enough to break the rotor? If so,
what
would
>the fix be?
Both times I broke PowerSlots, I was
braking in a straight line.
But you may be on to something: Topeka is a left
hand track, so most of the
cornering is on the right front, and both times I
broke right front rotors.
OTOH, they both broke in the first session, so we
can't blame it on
excessive wear. The left rotors get considerable strain
too, but they last
the entire weekend.
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:16:19 -0600
From: Andrew Brilliant <andrewb@infowest.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Adventures in braking
Some road race stuff we did in vegas that
might be pertinant for this.
This mod was done on a 96' Mustang Cobra.
There were the two brake air
vents intalled. Installed within the vents
was a sprinkler part of some
sore which was essentially misted the
water. It used very little
watter. It was attached a to a 1 gal
milkcontainer of water. There was
a switch on the steering wheel to
toggle of/on the pump. It was VERY,
VERY effective. Trint was
braking Extremely hard into the turn after
the front straight. With
what in his own words he called "No brake
fade, zero, zip zilch, nothing, not
a dang thing. No shakes, no smoke,
nothing.". He would usually
cool the brakes while under acceleration
across the straights, and have them
just warm for the next turn. When
he came into pit. His brakes
were just, _barely_ warm enough to burn
you. And this with Race pads as
well. There did not appear to be a
real bad problem with warping, I
think that the trick here is not to
cool them to quckly, and too much.
If it were rigged to spray while
under braking, the heat generate would equal
the heat being released,
and the rotor temp wouldn't really drop that
much. BTW it looked really
cool when you could see a little steam out
of all of his brakes. He took
yellow class that day, he was outbraking
everyone, with stock calipers,
stock rotors, and his $15 brake
mod..
another note of interest in europe there is a popular form of
racing,
involving diesel trucks. I don't know if anyone else has seen
this, but
the're brakes are constantly being hit with water. It has to
be
possible.
- --
Andrew Brilliant
Webmaster
IS
Department
Global Connections, Inc.
Orem, UT
nyse: GLCO
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:56:12 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Adventures in braking
At 01:16 PM 4/20/99 -0600, you
wrote:
>Some road race stuff we did in vegas that might be pertinant for
this.
>This mod was done on a 96' Mustang Cobra. There were the two
brake air
>vents intalled. Installed within the vents was a
sprinkler part of some
>sore which was essentially misted the water.
It used very little
>watter. It was attached a to a 1 gal
milkcontainer of water. There was
>a switch on the steering wheel to
toggle of/on the pump. It was VERY,
>VERY effective.
Can you tell us more? Like what kind of "sprinkler part"? What pumped
the
water?. Did you buy it as a kit from somewhere or just cobble it
together
out of spare parts?
Trint was braking Extremely hard into the
turn after
>the front straight. With what in his own words he called
"No brake
>fade, zero, zip zilch, nothing, not a dang thing. No
shakes, no smoke,
>nothing.". He would usually cool the brakes while
under acceleration
>across the straights, and have them just warm for the
next turn.
So it was a manually actuated system that he used -- it
seems -- on
straights, probably at higher speeds.
When
>he
came into pit. His brakes were just, _barely_ warm enough to
burn
>you. And this with Race pads as well. There did not
appear to be a
>real bad problem with warping, I think that the trick here
is not to
>cool them to quckly, and too much. If it were rigged to
spray while
>under braking, the heat generate would equal the heat being
released,
>and the rotor temp wouldn't really drop that much.
Ooops. Now I'm confused. Did you rig it up this way, or are you
suggesting
we do this?
BTW it looked really
>cool when you
could see a little steam out of all of his brakes. He took
>yellow class
that day, he was outbraking everyone, with stock calipers,
>stock rotors,
and his $15 brake mod..
Have you run it this way since? Or was this a
one-time mod?
Andrew, thanks for contributing. This is some great
stuff!
Rich/old poop/94 VR4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:45:47 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Track report- Rotor problem
>
>What If we slotted
the stock Mitsubishi rotor? The rotors can be had for
>about 80.00
each, and add 40.00 per for slotting this is not a bad
>alternative.
I suspect if we slotted the Mitsu OE rotors, we would run into
>the same
problem.
Don't forget another $50 to heat treat them. Stock rotors will
warp
otherwise.
Now we are back at the Porterfields. I think I'd trust
Porterfield rather
than a local machine shop.
>
>KVR shipped
another rotor free of charge. They want the old rotor back to
>check
for casting problems. KVR is very professional, and handled the
claim
>very efficiently. The fact that the rotor broke
was not taken lightly. I
>am sure KVR will correct the problem if in
fact there was one. I suspect
>there was just a defect in the
casting.
PowerSlot replaced the first casting. They have not yet replied
about this
one.
>
Rich/old Poop
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:19:39 -0400
From: Gavin Wallis <WallisG@mwaa.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
High 11's w/ stock Turbos? -Reply
I think this basically proves my point
I made a while back about it not
being feasible to run 11's with stock
turbos. Even 100x more so if the
whole goal is to do it with little cost.
But if you wanna commit to a super-stripped car and rollcage
w/slicks
super-lights wheels all to make 11.99 on stock turbos be my
guest...looks
like it will run you well over $10g's. That would be awesome to
see. But
it certainly seems like their are IMMENSELY more cost effective ways
to
get into the 11s. Perhaps I'm missing the goals
though?
Gavin
'94 Black VR-4
>>> Errin Humphrey <errin@u.washington.edu> 04/19/99
07:42pm >>>
A while back you guys were all debating about
whether
or not a VR4 could run 11's on stock turbos.
Well, if I'm not
mistaken, it has already been done in
Japan by the green Puma GTO N1, a
second-gen VR4.
It ran 11.99 in the 400m, and according to its spec
sheet
(and Henry Yam) it runs stock turbos because of the
class it
races/raced in. The car is completely gutted
w/ a rollcage with a total
weight of 1460kg (3220lbs),
and it runs full slicks with about 8 degrees of
neg. camber.
That's all for now.
- --Errin Humphrey
Yellow
VR4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:17:16 -0600
From: Andrew Brilliant <andrewb@infowest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Adventures in braking
First off sorry for the poorly written
post. I was on hold with my landlord, while
eating lunch, and writing
that post.
Merritt wrote:
> At 01:16 PM 4/20/99 -0600, you
wrote:
> >Some road race stuff we did in vegas that might be pertinant
for this.
> >This mod was done on a 96' Mustang Cobra. There were
the two brake air
> >vents intalled. Installed within the vents
was a sprinkler part of some
> >sore which was essentially misted the
water. It used very little
> >watter. It was attached a to
a 1 gal milkcontainer of water. There was
> >a switch on the
steering wheel to toggle of/on the pump. It was VERY,
> >VERY
effective.
>
> Can you tell us more? Like what kind of "sprinkler
part"? What pumped the
> water?. Did you buy it as a kit from somewhere or
just cobble it together
> out of spare parts?
The package I saw for
the part was labeled "Sprinkle Mist" It had a picture of a
dripping wet
Strawberry, I think that was it's intended use. It was a windshield
wiper
pump. Trint worked at a tire shop, so those sorts of things were easy
to come by for
him. Home depot? I know as much as anyone else
about his part selection. I just saw
it in action, and it was
impressive.
> Trint was braking Extremely hard into the turn
after
> >the front straight. With what in his own words he called
"No brake
> >fade, zero, zip zilch, nothing, not a dang thing. No
shakes, no smoke,
> >nothing.". He would usually cool the brakes
while under acceleration
> >across the straights, and have them just
warm for the next turn.
>
> So it was a manually actuated system
that he used -- it seems -- on
> straights, probably at higher
speeds.
I think he used then in hopes of a more even distribution of the
water to avoid warping.
> When
> >he came into pit. His
brakes were just, _barely_ warm enough to burn
> >you. And this
with Race pads as well. There did not appear to be a
> >real bad
problem with warping, I think that the trick here is not to
> >cool
them to quckly, and too much. If it were rigged to spray while
>
>under braking, the heat generate would equal the heat being
released,
> >and the rotor temp wouldn't really drop that
much.
>
> Ooops. Now I'm confused. Did you rig it up this way, or
are you suggesting
> we do this?
He rigged it manually
actuated.
I am suggesting you could have solenoid from
the brake lights or anything like that,
and we could set it up to activate
under braking. What would be real nice would a Brake
position sensor,
to increase/decrease the flow. Conserve water under light braking,
and
dump large amounts under heavy braking.
> BTW it looked
really
> >cool when you could see a little steam out of all of his
brakes. He took
> >yellow class that day, he was outbraking everyone,
with stock calipers,
> >stock rotors, and his $15 brake
mod..
>
> Have you run it this way since? Or was this a one-time
mod?
That was his first race he ran like that. I have since moved
from St. George and I
haven't run with those guys since. I just tried
to get a hold of Trint to ask him more
about his mod. The company has
different owners/employees now so Im not sure how to
track him down. I
have never run like this. But he stomped the entire yellow
class
becuase of his braking ability. he would just go all out on the
straight and pass 3
cars every time, since there was no passing in the turns,
he was unstopable. Sometimes
people would pull on him through the
straight and then start braking for the trun, he
would get two car lenghts
before he even had to start braking. Aparently one of the
guys is
working on a refined version of this for his Shelby Cobra. I will try to
get a
hold of him, and see what he has in store. BTW anybody here know
of a Yellow VR-4 with
ground control springs? Apparently at the some
open track time they went to, there was
a VR-4 rolling over everything in
site... He had ground control springs, and 15g Turbos
raced at Phoenix, on
the 9th. Aparently he lapped a stock NSX-t running in his
class.
> Andrew, thanks for contributing. This is some great
stuff!
>
> Rich/old poop/94 VR4
>
> For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
-
--
Andrew M. Brilliant
Webmaster
IS Department
Global Web Direct
(OTC BB: GLCO)
801-852-4961
1-800-500-1847 ext: 2961
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:26:35 -0700
From: Ken Middaugh <middaugh@omega.gat.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Adventures in braking
>
> Can you tell us more?
Like what kind of "sprinkler part"? What pumped the
> water?. Did you buy
it as a kit from somewhere or just cobble it together
> out of spare
parts?
Probably the best nozzel would be one of those fog or mist types
used
for outdoor air cooling. You can find these at Home Depot, or
other
hardware or plumbing stores, or browse sites like
http://cloudburst.com/mistcool.html.
Then
you would just need a high pressure, low volume water pump, a
gallon jug, a
switch, and some wire!
A misting system could probably be left on for an
entire track session
to provide constant cooling instead of sudden blast of
cold.
- --
How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he
is lost!
Ken Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619)
455-4510
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:38:27 -0500
From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: High 11's w/ stock Turbos? -Reply
We seem to
forget..
The "stock" turbos for the overseas (to the continental US) are
13g's.
therefore the turbos are quite a bit larger than the US version
turbos. I
suspect the 13g's will produce at least 50hp more than the
9b's. Which would
be enough to get into the 11's.
> Brad
Check
out my home page: http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
>
E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com
ICQ# 3612682
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]
On Behalf Of Gavin Wallis
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 3:20 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Re: Team3S: High 11's w/ stock Turbos? -Reply
I think this basically
proves my point I made a while back about it not
being feasible to run 11's
with stock turbos. Even 100x more so if the
whole goal is to do it with
little cost.
But if you wanna commit to a super-stripped car and rollcage
w/slicks
super-lights wheels all to make 11.99 on stock turbos be my
guest...looks
like it will run you well over $10g's. That would be awesome to
see. But
it certainly seems like their are IMMENSELY more cost effective ways
to
get into the 11s. Perhaps I'm missing the goals though?
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:53:27 -0700
From: "Dave Allison" <dallison@siebel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: UPRD Dyno
OK guys,
As promised, here are the raw results
from the sessions at UPRD's
dyno. I thought I'd forward these to the list to
see if anyone could make
heads or tails of the results. You'll notice that
each of the lines listed
correspond to an MPH that the car was stabilized at
by the dyno. The car was
actually at WOT and trying to accelerate beyond the
specific speeds, but
were being held back by an equalizing force produced by
the dyno. The
equalizing force is presumably what is used to determine the HP
generated at
that MPH.
Please let me know why I may be seeing such low
output. Thanks! Here
ya go.
Dave
Allison
************************************
Test Type:
Power Curve Sweep Test/Diesel Lug Down Test User Name:
"Test Start
Time: 4/10/99, 11:04:55 AM" Log Rate: Pt. Saved At End
of Each
Increment
Data Filepath: C:\vtt\Data\allison3gt.dat
Start
Speed: 75.0 MPH Maximum Speed: 85.0 MPH
Ramp Time :
5.0 sec Wait Between Ramps: 3.0 sec
Ramp Type:
Ramp Up
Time Force 2 Speed Force PIDAccel Speed 2 PIDAccel2 Tach
Road
HP Road HP 2 Eng Torque(Corr) Eng Power(Corr) MPHpoint
sec lbs.
MPH lbs. ft/sec^2 MPH
ft/sec^2 RPM HP
HP Ft.Lbs
HP
MPH
3 401.3
75 827.2 0.4 74.6
0.7
4518.1 165.5 79.9
257.8
221.8
75
8.8 408.4 80.1 841.6 0.2
79.8 0.5
4827
179.9 86.9 262.2
241
80
14.4
419.6 85.1 863.7 0.2
84.8
0.2
5150.2 196.1 94.8 268
262.8
85
Test Type: Power Curve Sweep Test/Diesel Lug Down Test
User Name:
"Test Start Time: 4/10/99, 11:04:55 AM" Log Rate:
Pt. Saved At End
of Each Increment
Data Filepath:
C:\vtt\Data\allison3gt.dat
Start Speed: 75.0 MPH Maximum
Speed: 85.0 MPH
Ramp Time : 5.0 sec Wait Between
Ramps: 3.0 sec
Ramp Type: Ramp Up
Time Force 2
Speed Force PIDAccel Speed 2 PIDAccel2 Tach
Road HP Road HP 2 Eng
Torque(Corr) Eng Power(Corr) MPHpoint
sec lbs.
MPH lbs. ft/sec^2 MPH
ft/sec^2 RPM HP
HP Ft.Lbs
HP
MPH
3 401.3 75 827.2 0.4
74.6
0.7
4518.1 165.5 79.9 257.8
221.8
75
8.8 408.4 80.1 841.6 0.2
79.8 0.5
4827
179.9 86.9 262.2
241
80
14.4
419.6 85.1 863.7 0.2
84.8
0.2
5150.2 196.1 94.8 268
262.8
85
Test Type: Power Curve Sweep Test/Diesel Lug Down Test
User Name:
"Test Start Time: 4/10/99, 6:13:52 PM" Log Rate:
Pt. Saved At End of Each
Increment
Data Filepath:
C:\vtt\Data\allison4gt.dat
Start Speed: 75.0 MPH Maximum
Speed: 85.0 MPH
Ramp Time : 5.0 sec Wait Between
Ramps: 3.0 sec
Ramp Type: Ramp Up
Time Force 2
Speed Force PIDAccel Speed 2 PIDAccel2 Tach
Road HP Road HP 2 Eng
Torque(Corr) Eng Power(Corr) MPHpoint
sec lbs.
MPH lbs. ft/sec^2 MPH
ft/sec^2 RPM HP
HP Ft.Lbs
HP
MPH
3 508.3 75.1 1042.60
74.7
0.6
4562.7 208.8 101.3 322
279.7
75
8.8 455.9 80 935.3 0.4
79.6
0.6
2417.4 199.5 96.8 580.8
267.3
80
14.4 428.7 85.1 881.5 0.1
84.8
0.3
5119.5 200.2 96.9 275.2
268.2
85
Test Type: Power Curve Sweep Test/Diesel Lug Down Test
User Name:
"Test Start Time: 4/10/99, 6:16:26 PM" Log Rate:
Pt. Saved At End of Each
Increment
Data Filepath:
C:\vtt\Data\allison5gt.dat
Start Speed: 75.0 MPH Maximum
Speed: 85.0 MPH
Ramp Time : 5.0 sec Wait Between
Ramps: 3.0 sec
Ramp Type: Ramp Up
Time Force 2
Speed Force PIDAccel Speed 2 PIDAccel2 Tach
Road HP Road HP 2 Eng
Torque(Corr) Eng Power(Corr) MPHpoint
sec lbs.
MPH lbs. ft/sec^2 MPH
ft/sec^2 RPM HP
HP Ft.Lbs
HP
MPH
3 490.1 74.8 1007.20
74.4
0.2
4514.7 200.9 97.2 313.2
269.2
75
8.8 426.5 80 877.4 0.3
79.6
0.5
4846.5 187.2 90.6 271.9
250.9
80
14.4 462.7 85.2 949.5 0.2
84.8
0.1
5128.2 215.7 104.6 296
289.1
85
Test Type: Power Curve Sweep Test/Diesel Lug Down Test
User Name:
"Test Start Time: 4/10/99, 6:20:41 PM" Log Rate:
Pt. Saved At End of Each
Increment
Data Filepath:
C:\vtt\Data\allison6gt.dat
Start Speed: 85.0 MPH Maximum
Speed: 95.0 MPH
Ramp Time : 5.0 sec Wait Between
Ramps: 3.0 sec
Ramp Type: Ramp Up
Time Force 2
Speed Force PIDAccel Speed 2 PIDAccel2 Tach
Road HP Road HP 2 Eng
Torque(Corr) Eng Power(Corr) MPHpoint
sec lbs.
MPH lbs. ft/sec^2 MPH
ft/sec^2 RPM HP
HP Ft.Lbs
HP
MPH
3 478.5 85 980.7 0.4
84.6
0.2
2567.4 222.3 107.9 609.2
297.8
85
8.8 460.4 90.1 944.6 0
89.7
0
5444.6 226.9 110.1 293.3
304.1
90
14.4 380.2 95 783.2 0
94.6
0.1
2858.5 198.4 95.9 488.5
265.9
95
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:12:27 -0400
From: Gavin Wallis <WallisG@mwaa.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Adventures in braking-1999 -Reply
I'm going to stay away from the rest of
the post for the moment because
I'm not experienced enough...although I must
say I applaud you Rich for
trying to get the brakes a more important part in
the role of things. They
are such a short coming...it's too easy to spend
less money and jerry rig
tons of power out of our cars...I'm much more into
weight reduction and
brake solutions. Amen Rich.
But onto my point of
this post, ABS. There is an ABS fuse, just pull it
and
enjoy.
Gavin
'94 Black VR-4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:12:49 -0700
From: "Dave Allison" <dallison@siebel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: UPRD Dyno again...
This message is in MIME format. Since your
mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may
not be legible.
-
------_=_NextPart_000_01BE8B72.A1157C28
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sorry
guys... the last post may have suffered from formatting problems.
Here's
the same results as an attachment. Open in 'Notepad' and disable
'word wrap'
to see properly.
BTW, the car is an 1993 3000GT VR-4 with the first 2
tests (11:04:55 AM and
11:04:55 AM) performed in the morning with only an HKS
Powerflo intake and
HKS exhaust.
The last 3 tests (6:13:52 PM, 6:16:26
PM, and 6:20:41 PM) were performed
after installing a boost gauge, EGT
probe/gauge, HKS SSBOV, and running 1
bar of boost.
'Road HP' was
upposed to be what is commonly referred to as
wheel
horsepower.
Thanks.
Dave Allison
-
------_=_NextPart_000_01BE8B72.A1157C28
Content-Location:
ATT-0-F415634755F7D21192CD00805FEDEB10-d yno.txt
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=us-ascii;
name=dyno.txt
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename=dyno.txt
OK guys,
As promised, here are the raw
results from the sessions at UPRD's =
dyno. I thought I'd forward these to
the list to see if anyone could =
make heads or tails of the results. You'll
notice that each of the =
lines listed correspond to an MPH that the car was
stabilized at by the =
dyno. The car was actually at WOT and trying to
accelerate beyond the =
specific speeds, but were being held back by an
equalizing force =
produced by the dyno. The equalizing force is presumably
what is used =
to determine the HP generated at that MPH.
Please let
me know why I may be seeing such low output. Thanks! Here =
ya
go.
Dave Allison
************************************
Test
Type: Power Curve Sweep Test/Diesel Lug Down Test User Name:
=
=09
"Test Start Time: 4/10/99, 11:04:55 AM" Log Rate: Pt.
Saved At End of =
Each Increment =09
Data Filepath:
C:\vtt\Data\allison3gt.dat =09
Start Speed: 75.0 MPH Maximum
Speed: 85.0 MPH =09
Ramp Time : 5.0 sec Wait Between
Ramps: 3.0 sec =09
Ramp Type: Ramp Up =09
Time Force 2
Speed Force PIDAccel Speed 2 PIDAccel2 Tach Road HP Road =
HP 2 Eng
Torque(Corr) Eng Power(Corr) MPHpoint
sec lbs. MPH lbs. ft/sec^2 MPH ft/sec^2
RPM HP HP
=
Ft.Lbs
HP MPH
3 401.3 75 827.2 0.4
74.6 0.7
4518.1 165.5
=
79.9
257.8
221.8 75
8.8 408.4 80.1 841.6 0.2
79.8 0.5
4827 179.9
=
86.9
262.2
241 80
14.4 419.6 85.1 863.7 0.2
84.8 0.2
5150.2 196.1
=
94.8
268
262.8 85
Test Type:
Power Curve Sweep Test/Diesel Lug Down Test User Name: =
=09
"Test
Start Time: 4/10/99, 11:04:55 AM" Log Rate: Pt. Saved At End of
=
Each Increment =09
Data Filepath: C:\vtt\Data\allison3gt.dat
=09
Start Speed: 75.0 MPH Maximum Speed: 85.0 MPH =09
Ramp
Time : 5.0 sec Wait Between Ramps: 3.0 sec =09
Ramp
Type: Ramp Up =09
Time Force 2 Speed Force PIDAccel Speed 2 PIDAccel2
Tach Road HP Road =
HP 2 Eng Torque(Corr) Eng Power(Corr)
MPHpoint
sec lbs. MPH lbs. ft/sec^2 MPH ft/sec^2 RPM HP
HP
=
Ft.Lbs
HP MPH
3 401.3 75
827.2 0.4 74.6 0.7
4518.1
165.5 =
79.9
257.8
221.8 75
8.8 408.4 80.1 841.6 0.2
79.8 0.5
4827 179.9
=
86.9
262.2
241 80
14.4 419.6 85.1 863.7 0.2
84.8 0.2
5150.2 196.1
=
94.8
268
262.8 85
Test Type:
Power Curve Sweep Test/Diesel Lug Down Test User Name: =
=09
"Test
Start Time: 4/10/99, 6:13:52 PM" Log Rate: Pt. Saved At End of
=
Each Increment =09
Data Filepath: C:\vtt\Data\allison4gt.dat
=09
Start Speed: 75.0 MPH Maximum Speed: 85.0 MPH =09
Ramp
Time : 5.0 sec Wait Between Ramps: 3.0 sec =09
Ramp
Type: Ramp Up =09
Time Force 2 Speed Force PIDAccel Speed 2 PIDAccel2
Tach Road HP Road =
HP 2 Eng Torque(Corr) Eng Power(Corr)
MPHpoint
sec lbs. MPH lbs. ft/sec^2 MPH ft/sec^2 RPM HP
HP
=
Ft.Lbs
HP MPH
3 508.3 75.1 1042.6
0
74.7 0.6 4562.7
208.8 =
101.3
322
279.7 75
8.8 455.9 80 935.3 0.4
79.6 0.6
2417.4 199.5
=
96.8
580.8
267.3 80
14.4 428.7 85.1 881.5 0.1
84.8 0.3
5119.5 200.2
=
96.9
275.2
268.2 85
Test Type:
Power Curve Sweep Test/Diesel Lug Down Test User Name: =
=09
"Test
Start Time: 4/10/99, 6:16:26 PM" Log Rate: Pt. Saved At End of
=
Each Increment =09
Data Filepath: C:\vtt\Data\allison5gt.dat
=09
Start Speed: 75.0 MPH Maximum Speed: 85.0 MPH =09
Ramp
Time : 5.0 sec Wait Between Ramps: 3.0 sec =09
Ramp
Type: Ramp Up =09
Time Force 2 Speed Force PIDAccel Speed 2 PIDAccel2
Tach Road HP Road =
HP 2 Eng Torque(Corr) Eng Power(Corr)
MPHpoint
sec lbs. MPH lbs. ft/sec^2 MPH ft/sec^2 RPM HP
HP
=
Ft.Lbs
HP MPH
3 490.1 74.8 1007.2 0
74.4 0.2
4514.7 200.9
=
97.2
313.2
269.2 75
8.8 426.5 80 877.4 0.3
79.6 0.5
4846.5 187.2
=
90.6
271.9
250.9 80
14.4 462.7 85.2 949.5 0.2
84.8 0.1
5128.2 215.7
=
104.6
296
289.1 85
Test Type:
Power Curve Sweep Test/Diesel Lug Down Test User Name: =
=09
"Test
Start Time: 4/10/99, 6:20:41 PM" Log Rate: Pt. Saved At End of
=
Each Increment =09
Data Filepath: C:\vtt\Data\allison6gt.dat
=09
Start Speed: 85.0 MPH Maximum Speed: 95.0 MPH =09
Ramp
Time : 5.0 sec Wait Between Ramps: 3.0 sec =09
Ramp
Type: Ramp Up =09
Time Force 2 Speed Force PIDAccel Speed 2 PIDAccel2
Tach Road HP Road =
HP 2 Eng Torque(Corr) Eng Power(Corr)
MPHpoint
sec lbs. MPH lbs. ft/sec^2 MPH ft/sec^2 RPM HP
HP
=
Ft.Lbs
HP MPH
3 478.5 85 980.7 0.4
84.6 0.2
2567.4 222.3
=
107.9
609.2
297.8 85
8.8 460.4 90.1 944.6 0
89.7 0
5444.6 226.9
=
110.1
293.3
304.1 90
14.4 380.2 95 783.2 0
94.6 0.1
2858.5 198.4
=
95.9
488.5
265.9 95
-
------_=_NextPart_000_01BE8B72.A1157C28--
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:24:54 -0400
From: Gavin Wallis <WallisG@mwaa.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Total brake solution!
Heh...yeah right...BUT a step to get
there.
www.3000brakes.com
or get 3si.com or
3000gt.com to put up a page.
We need to organize
this.
Gavin
'94 Black VR-4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:33:33 -0400
From: Gavin Wallis <WallisG@mwaa.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Adventures in braking-1999 -Reply
Pictures please. BTW- what is the total
cost of the bremsa setup again?
Gavin
>>>
"Mikael_Åkesson" <vr4@bahnhof.se>
04/20/99 01:12pm >>>
Ohhh I almost forgot... I polished my callipers
so they look like crome and with the open design on my rims and the blue
anodized hubs and drilled and slotted rotors it looks so great that the money
was almost worth it even if they performed less than stock :).
Hope it
helps,
Mikael Akesson http://www.3000gt.nu
-
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Allison <dallison@siebel.com>
To: 'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date:
Tuesday, April 20, 1999 6:32 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Adventures in
braking-1999
>Well Barry,
>
> It just so happens my
wear indicator is screeching at me to replace
>my brakes. I am now looking
to drop a load of change into my brakes. Perhaps
>I CAN serve as a test
setup for the list. What should I buy that is
>somewhere under $1500? Is
it reasonable to assume I can find something
>acceptable in this price
range?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Dave
>
>-----Original
Message-----
>From: Barry E. King [mailto:beking@home.com]
>Sent: Monday,
April 19, 1999 8:54 PM
>To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>Subject:
RE: Team3S: Adventures in braking-1999
>
>I'd love to see an
effective and affordable braking package for our cars
>too. I just
think there are practical limitations which may come to odds
>with
expectations. I also think that the near ideal setup is
already
>available, but I guess it would have to be tested under the
conditions you
>encounter. I know putting together a test setup for
$1000 isn't exactly
>pocket change, but maybe something like this would be
achievable with some
>pulls and tugs here and
there?
>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:54:44 -0400
From: Gavin Wallis <WallisG@mwaa.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Another Brake ABS comment
This came accross the starnet.net
list...interesting...
>>> "Yasuna J. Murakami" <Ymurakami@grandviewlp.com
>>>
I am not sure I understand your problem with ABS. ABS is
an
asset not a liablity, and this is especially true with sports cars. There
is
not one high end sports car or sedan out their without it. Ferrari
to
Porsche, Mercedes to Cadillac, 3000GT to Supra, Corvette to Viper
all
have ABS, and for good reason - lockup. Even in racing, cars with
ABS
will routinely outbrake and out-maneuver non-ABS cars - look at
the
formulas that allowed and then outlawed ABS braking for this
reason
(Formula One, CART/Champ Car, NASCAR). Of course, there is such
a
thing as crappy braking systems with crappy ABS to boot, but this
is
another issue. When a car has a high-performance, ABS system, it is
an
asset!
At Skip Barber and Bob Bondurant racing school,
ABS-equipped
"civilian" cars are disconnected to force instability and
adverse handling
- - to see how students will drive in adverse handling
conditions. That
Sunfire you drove surely had a problem with its overall
braking system
not just ABS.
- Yasuna Murakami
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:48:41 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Adventures in braking-1999
> Roger already suggested
installing a thermcouple. Where would be the best
> place to attach
it?
Some pad manufacturers offers pads with a thermocouple attached in
between the
pad surface (in the small slot). They are using a standard $15
K-type probe that
can easy attached to a meter. The biggest temperature will
occur there, very
close to the surfaces that touch each others.
>
caliper? Away from the cooling duct? Another possibility would be a
small
> infrared sensor, because we could point it at any target -- the
rotor,
> caliper, or whatever.
An infrared-sensor is a very good
idea but to mount it is not easy.
One idea for a thermocouple could be
the pad-bolts or the spring plate. The
later is very close to the heat
surface and is maybe a good idea. I'd also place
a probe to one end of the
brake line to see the rise of the temp in or at
the
lines.
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:15:40 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: UPRD Dyno again...
> Here's the same results as an attachment.
Open in 'Notepad' and disable
> 'word wrap' to see properly.
Ok, I
had a look at it but I must say ... I can't do anything with these values.
As
the engine power is already corrected I can't see any figure that makes
sense
to me but the rpm. Especially the 1000lbs of force is a great and nice
figure
but what the hell does this mean. Also the first two ones are
absolutely the
same and this is almost inpossible. Are you sure that the
timestamp is not the
print time ?
Going up to 5150 rpm or so is too
low as the peak is around 5600 to 6000 on our
cars.
> 'Road HP' was
upposed to be what is commonly referred to as wheel
> horsepower.
I
don't understand this stuff. Look at our power curve and you see that there
is
a real difference between 4500 and 5200. The first two makes sense but not
the
others. These are just not enough information to say what's going on
here.
Especially not this rpm band as the detonation area starts at 5450 to
about
5700.
I'm sorry to sound negative but the figures are not of any
help. You cannot see
anything and you're much more confused than at any time
before. Have them learn
to use their stuff by giving them a printout of our
dynosheets. Say that you
expect something like this and get another session
for free as they used you as
a "Guinea
pig".
Regards,
Roger
- -----------------------
Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor
wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,HKS SBOV,
ATR DP/ tespipe,Borla
Cat-back,OZ Mito2 rims,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,
Bremsa brakes,Pagid
RS-R pads
Check out: http://homepage.swissonline.ch/3000gt
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:21:54 -0700
From: Joe Gonsowski <twinturbo@mediaone.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Adventures in braking-1999
Merritt wrote:
> Roger
already suggested installing a thermcouple. Where would be the best
>
place to attach it? I suspect perhaps on the altered backing plate,
because
> it would already be off for welding, and it gets about as close
to the
> rotor and caliper as anything else. But where specifically? Near
the
> caliper? Away from the cooling duct? Another possibility would be a
small
> infrared sensor, because we could point it at any target -- the
rotor,
> caliper, or whatever.
Infrared would be expensive and near
impossible to get reliable "real time" data. The
popular choice is to
insert a thermocouple on the back side of the brake pad. A small
"V"
may need to be cut into the pad or caliper piston depending on where you place
it.
I've seen this done at DaimlerChrysler and on Dodge Viper race prepped
cars. A driver
can watch temps during the race and with experience
learn when he/she needs to conserve
brakes (hot). If you want
consistent results, you must position the thermocouple in the
same location
each time. The deeper (drilling into the pad) you go, the more
accurate
and less time delay the readouts will be. However, the sooner
you destroy your
thermocouple as the pad wears.
Our World Challenge
Vipers also used a water injection setup (already mentioned). The
cons
to this system include:
1) additional weight (in 45 minutes of
racing, we would go through as much as 4 gallons
of water). Because
SCCA weighs podium finishers at end of race to make sure you're
legal, we'd
have to race overweight (gas and water) hoping to stay legal by end of
race.
2) injectors plug easily (use distilled water and purge with
alcohol before storing)
3) cracked several rotors (cannot guarantee
this was due entirely to water injection
though)
Because of the above
three reasons, we ditched the system for some of the races.
Joe
Gonsowski
'92 RT/TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:02:46 -0600
From: "PHorschel" <phorschel@utah-inter.net>
Subject:
Team3S: For Sale(DSBC, timer ect.)
Hello all,
I am selling my 93 VR4
so I have a few mods and spare parts for sale. Buyer
pays
shipping.
Blitz DSBC(dual solenoid boost controller) $375
Blitz
FATT(full auto turbo timer) $100 with harness
K&N FIPK(cone filter kit)
$70
Test pipe(replaces main cat) $30
Or all above for $550, which
includes a modified center vent that the DSBC
and timer mount in the left
side(fits all models)
Factory clutch(brand new disc, bearing and cover)
$200
Factory bra(91-93 models only) $80
Spare (93 directional)17X8.5 wheel
with 255/40ZR17 BFG Comp tire $125
All mods were put on about two months
ago and are in excellent condition. I
am in SLC, Utah.
801-553-7289
Thanks, Paul Horschel
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:16:30 -0700
From: Joe Gonsowski <twinturbo@mediaone.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Wide band O2 sensor ?
Roger Gerl wrote:
>
Unfortunately, the stock O2 sensors act somewhat digital, rich or lean and
they
> do not have a large "hysteresis" area.
>
> To tune in
our cars properly it would be interesting to know how much rich or
> how
much lean the setting is. Fore this a good O2 wideband sensor together
with
> an A/F meter would be very helpful.
>
> I know
Autometer is offering one as well as Bosch but does anyone know if these
>
are widebands and what the sensors usually cost ?
>
> BTW, the ECU
should not have any problem with them.
>
Wide range O2's are the
best answer to dialing in a car. Unfortunately they are
expensive and
usually cumbersome to use. That is, you don't get a direct A/F ratio
but
instead a number, voltage, that you need to then look up in an
appropriate table. I
understand that Bosch has a sensor with software
to support it at ~ $1,000. Wide range
O2's are easy to spot because
they will have as many as seven wires coming from them
(not just two).
For this reason, I believe it would be difficult to use one with
our
ECU. I think the wide range O2 system would have to be a "stand
alone" system
independent of the stock O2's. Some production cars
(European) use wide range O2's in
production but are not easily adapted to
our application since all processing is done in
their respective
ECU.
I'm interested in a wide range and will be seeking more
information. Please don't take
the above excerpt as gospel. It is
simply what I've heard from co-workers and may not
be all that
accurate. I'll share more information as I get it.
Joe
Gonsowski
'92 RT/TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:20:01 -0500
From: Ken Taft <kentaft@cwix.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Chrome Exhaust Tips
Hi I"am still looking for exhaust tips for my stealth
i need two of them.
Dustin Poos can you send me your private E-Mail address
if you have the ones
for sale that you wrote to me on the list about. Also
can anyone tell me if
the mitusbishi tips on cars are the same in the years
produced as my 1992
Dodge Stealth Rt.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:16:40 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Adventures in braking-1999 -Reply
At 05:12 PM 4/20/99 -0400,
you wrote:
>I'm going to stay away from the rest of the post for the
moment because
>I'm not experienced enough...although I must say I applaud
you Rich for
>trying to get the brakes a more important part in the role
of things.
Gee, thanks. But this isn't for the benefit of the group.
It's for ME! I need better brakes!
And I'll stop at nothing to get what
I want!
Oops.
I didn't mean that.
Rich/old poop
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:48:38 +0200
From: Roger Gerl <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Track report
> Have you tried the Porterfield rotors? As I
understand it, they are stock
> rotors that have been heat treated, then
drilled.
If they are heat treated then they have been drilled first as
the tool would
have problems :) But they are mostly cinc plated and not
hardened.
All crossdrilled rotors with the drills made after their
production are tending
to crack. This is why such rotors are forbidden in
some european countries. To
prevent this, good ( and expensive) rotors are
made with the holes already in
there. They are then only crossdrilled again
to make them a good inner surface
but do not weaken the
structure.
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:46:57 -0800
From: Dan Jett <djett@corp.ultratech.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Another Brake ABS comment -Reply
** High Priority
**
Hmmmm....Interesting....
<Even in racing, cars with
ABS
will routinely outbrake and out-maneuver non-ABS cars>
Not
exactly. I remember a special on TNN motorsports, where Emerson
Fittapaldi
drove an AWD Talon Tsi (my old car) on a road course, with
ABS engaged and
disengaged. In all actuallity, he had a slight
advantage when ABS was turned
off! (Most racers know threshold
braking, and would rather "drive" their
cars, than have it drive
them).
At any rate, ABS is a great safety
feature, although I'm not too sure
I'd rely on it at the track, under extreme
circumstances.
<There is
not one high end sports car or sedan out
their without it. Ferrari to
Porsche, Mercedes to Cadillac, 3000GT to Supra,
Corvette to Viper all
have ABS, and for good reason - lockup>
BTW,
I thought the Viper didn't have ABS equipped brakes...Off topic,
I know, but
nonetheless, not ALL sports cars come equipped with ABS.
Dan Jett
92
Stealth TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:36:01 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Adventures in braking-1999
>Our World Challenge Vipers
also used a water injection setup <snip> we
ditched the system
for some of the races.
>
OK, but how did it work when you DID use
it?
Rich
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:13:37 -0600
From: Andrew Brilliant <andrewb@infowest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Another Brake ABS comment -Reply
I know for a fact also that the
McLaren F1 opted _not_ to have ABS. There was an artile
about it that
said they resaoned that experienced drivers were better off without
it.
Dan Jett wrote:
> ** High Priority **
>
>
Hmmmm....Interesting....
>
> <Even in racing, cars with
ABS
> will routinely outbrake and out-maneuver non-ABS
cars>
>
> Not exactly. I remember a special on TNN motorsports,
where Emerson
> Fittapaldi drove an AWD Talon Tsi (my old car) on a road
course, with
> ABS engaged and disengaged. In all actuallity, he had a
slight
> advantage when ABS was turned off! (Most racers know
threshold
> braking, and would rather "drive" their cars, than have it
drive
> them).
>
> At any rate, ABS is a great safety feature,
although I'm not too sure
> I'd rely on it at the track, under extreme
circumstances.
>
> <There is
> not one high end sports car
or sedan out their without it. Ferrari to
> Porsche, Mercedes to Cadillac,
3000GT to Supra, Corvette to Viper all
> have ABS, and for good reason -
lockup>
>
> BTW, I thought the Viper didn't have ABS equipped
brakes...Off topic,
> I know, but nonetheless, not ALL sports cars come
equipped with ABS.
>
> Dan Jett
> 92 Stealth TT
> For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
-
--
Andrew Brilliant
Webmaster
IS Department
Global Connections,
Inc.
Orem, UT
nyse: GLCO
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:18:50 -0400
From: "Andy Carberry" <acarberry@snet.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: VR4 spare
Try a salvage yard they should have one.
Andy
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:31:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: dustin poos <vr4_3000gt@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Chrome Exhaust Tips
Hi my E mail is vr4_3000gt@yahoo.com
- --- Ken
Taft <kentaft@cwix.com>
wrote:
> Hi I"am still looking for exhaust tips for my
> stealth i
need two of them.
> Dustin Poos can you send me your private
E-Mail
> address if you have the ones
> for sale that you wrote to
me on the list about.
> Also can anyone tell me if
> the mitusbishi
tips on cars are the same in the
> years produced as my 1992
> Dodge
Stealth Rt.
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
_________________________________________________________
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Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:39:16 EDT
From: SoCoDrnkr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Chrome Exhaust Tips
hey bro if you want some fat tips I'd go borla,
pacesetter, or monza big
bore. If you want the stock look I am getting
a new exhaust on my 91 ES soon
(hopefully). Keep in touch w/ me and
i'll try the same.
Dan
91 ES
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:59:55 -0400
From: Irving & Ana Jimenez <lt1power@crystal.palace.net>
Subject:
Team3S: 550cc injectors on a 96VR4
OK Gang, another question
Has
anyone installed aftermarket injectors on an OBDII VR4/TTStealth ?
The
reason I asked this is because when I did the rebuild on my Blown 97
Formula
( which had the OBDII software ) I went through hell until I went to
a 95 computer that
was a none OBDII setup.
It seems the changing of a cam
and injectors caused the OBDII computer the foul the
plugs in under 10 miles
of driving ( it made the car run EXTREMELY RICH, no matter what
u did to it
)
I really don't want to go through this again with this car
:o(
Irving
96 VR4 . . . . what happened to " Its Going To Stay
Stock :o) "
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:59:09 -0700
From: Joe Gonsowski <twinturbo@mediaone.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Adventures in braking-1999
Merritt wrote:
> >Our
World Challenge Vipers also used a water injection setup <snip>
we
> ditched the system for some of the races.
> >
> OK,
but how did it work when you DID use it?
>
Our cars (#31 Neil
Hannemann & #3 Bobby Archer) didn't experience fade with the
injection
but many times didn't need it. It should be noted that our system squirted
a
direct spray onto the rotor, not the upstream mist some have
described. Our system was
very similar to what the Trans Am cars use
(orifice was hard mounted to the lower
control arm).
Another comment
that many of you may disagree with. When we swapped to steel
braided
brake hoses, we found the brake fluid would boil quicker (better
conductor than the
stock rubber hoses) and realized worse braking
performance. We had to insulate the
steel brake hose to regain and then
improve the stock performance. In fact we also had
to insulate the ball
joints (or we'd melt the rubber boot that holds the grease).
For those
interested, our Viper's (unlike all other cars in World Challenge) had
to
maintain stock weight. To equalize the field, the Saleen Mustangs,
Vettes, Porsches,
NSXs, etc understandably were allowed to drop weight,
modify engines, and at least use
stock size of larger tires (none of which
are granted to the Viper). So we did work the
brakes hard, Oh and
contrary to an earlier report, the Viper does not come with ABS.
Joe
Gonsowski
'92 RT/TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:29:57 -0400
From: Shawn Dewey <sdewey@dmv.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: For
Sale(DSBC, timer ect.)
At 05:02 PM 4/20/99 -0600, you
wrote:
>Test pipe(replaces main cat) $30
I will take the
test pipe if it is not already sold.
Let me know where to send the
check.
Shawn Dewey
620 Carriage Lane
Dover, DE 19901-6233
H
302-697-1008
W 888-633-9800 x4415
- -shawn dewey
'91 Stealth R/T
nonturbo 15.426 @ 90.68 (in the happy hands of a new owner!)
'93 3000GT VR4
12.98 @ 107 mph
'91 Talon TSI AWD 13.6 @ 98.8 (the commuter car, yeah right!
:)
'95 Talon ESi SCCA Race Car (SSC class)
'81 Mazda RX7 GSL Spec
RX7
http://home.dmv.com/~sdewey
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:13:59 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Adventures in braking-1999
Joe W. writes:
>Our cars
didn't experience fade with the
>injection but many times didn't need
it. ...our system squirted a
>direct spray onto the rotor, not the
upstream mist some have
described...very similar to what the Trans Am cars
use (orifice was hard
mounted to the lower
>control
arm).
>
>Another comment that many of you may disagree with.
When we swapped to
steel braided
>brake hoses, we found the brake fluid
would boil quicker (better conductor
than the
>stock rubber hoses) and
realized worse braking performance. We had to
insulate the
>steel
brake hose to regain and then improve the stock performance.
Boy,
the stuff you learn on this list!
Is this great or what?
It gives one
hope that there really is a solution lurking out there.
Rich/old
poop
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:02:41 EDT
From: VR4Power@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: High
11's w/ stock Turbos? -Reply
In a message dated 4/20/99 4:43:33 PM
Eastern Daylight Time,
bbedell@austin.rr.com
writes:
<< We seem to forget..
The "stock"
turbos for the overseas (to the continental US) are 13g's.
therefore
the turbos are quite a bit larger than the US version turbos.
I
suspect the 13g's will produce at least 50hp more than the 9b's.
Which would
be enough to get into the 11's.
>
Brad
Check out my home page: http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
>
E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com
ICQ# 3612682
>>
Hey Brad.
You
wouldn't know anything about running high 11's with stock turbos would
ya??
I mean you could only go 11.9 with 15G's... EMBARRASSING!
The Kid
Adam Weltz
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:44:35 -0500
From: Del A Kolasinski <pearlvr42c@juno.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: 550cc injectors on a 96VR4
>From what I've experienced on
friends cars, 550cc injectors should not
mess with OBD2. They however
will need either an AFC piggyback fuel
computer, or reprogramed ECU's
to control the bigger
injectors.
Del
___________________________________________________________________
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don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:38:23 -0700
From: Errin Humphrey <errin@u.washington.edu>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: High 11's w/ stock Turbos?
Brad Bedell wrote:
> We
seem to forget..
>
> The "stock" turbos for the overseas (to the
continental US) are 13g's.
> therefore the turbos are quite a bit larger
than the US version turbos. I
> suspect the 13g's will produce at
least 50hp more than the 9b's. Which would
> be enough to get into the
11's.
Actually, Brad, the only thing that we have confirmed is
that
the stock turbos in ~European~ GTO's are 13G's. This turbo
size
seems to be appopriate for the high-speed freeways like
the German
Autobahn. No no to the best of my knowledge
has confirmed that there
are 13G's in the Japanese-spec GTO.
And furthermore, I have good reason
to believe that the Jap-spec
GTO's might not be 13G's. The Toyota Supra
in Japan comes
with much smaller turbos and 440cc injectors as compared to
the
US-spec Supra which has bigger turbos and 550cc injectors (I
won't
bother looking up the different names for the turbos, but I'm
pretty sure
they are both made by Hitachi). This allows them to
keep the horsepower
to 279 since (as I'm sure you know) cars sold
in Japan which claim more than
280hp are heavily taxed by the
government. Since the GTO in Japan also
claims 279 hp, I would
find it hard to believe that they would put ~smaller~
turbos (9B)
in their US-spec 3000GT in order to claim 320hp like the
Supra
does. If anything, their turbos might even be smaller than the
9B's.
Also, all Japanese GTO's that I have seen running stock in
the
400m have run mid to high 13's, similar to our US-spec 3000GT.
A
3000GT with 13G's should be able to easily pull 12's bone stock.
BTW,
Gavin Wallis mentioned that it is pointless to make a stock
turbo'd 3000GT
run 11's b/c it would cost $10k to gut it and put
slicks and a rollcage on
it. I don't think so, especially since a
rollcage isn't even
necessary. $10k?!! Last time I checked, gutting
out a car doesn't
cost hardly anything at all. Wheels aren't totally
necessary, and even
if someone goes for them you're still only
talking about a couple grand for
17's.
- --Errin Humphrey
Yellow VR4
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:27:09 +0200
From: Roger Gerl <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: High 11's w/ stock Turbos? -Reply
> The "stock" turbos for the
overseas (to the continental US) are 13g's.
> therefore the turbos are
quite a bit larger than the US version turbos. I
> suspect the 13g's
will produce at least 50hp more than the 9b's. Which would
> be enough to
get into the 11's.
No, no way, look again at our dyno sessions and you'll
see a bigger power in the
mid-band and more tourque. The torque then helps to
get a faster 1/4 mile time
but no hp. If I had done the dyno with summer
tires (I was too stupid and we
almost glow up the winter tires) then the
results would show a better power
holding in the higher area. but that's it.
Also I don't think the 13 is really
bigger but it has a different design of
the compressor wheel.
Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT with
13G
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:37:49 +0200
From: Roger Gerl <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: For Sale(Moderator message)
Remember,
Never ever reply to
sale posts on the list ! Always use the private email
address of the poster
when interested.
Also, everybody who writes an add like this please
insert a small sentence at
the end that remainds the people to send further
emails privately.
Thanks,
Roger and the Moderators
Shawn
Dewey wrote:
>
> At 05:02 PM 4/20/99 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >Test pipe(replaces main cat) $30
>
> I will take the
test pipe if it is not already sold.
> Let me know where to send the
check.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:50:25 +0200
From: Roger Gerl <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: High 11's w/ stock Turbos?
> The Toyota Supra in Japan comes
with much smaller turbos and 440cc injectors
> as compared to the US-spec
Supra which has bigger turbos and 550cc injectors
A little off 3000GT but
informal :
The EU Supras have 550cc too, and when speaking of the Supra
TT then they are
using a sequential Turbo system with some gates in the
exhaust and intake tract
and different sized turbos. No comparison to our
system possible.
> hard to believe that they would put ~smaller~
turbos (9B)
> in their US-spec 3000GT in order to claim 320hp like the
Supra
We have 284 DIN hp here, every year. But this is because our stock
cars have
0.45-0.6 bars of boost stock. No differences over the years. I
think Mitsu did
this to keep the power below 300hp as some Cantons in
Switzerland as well as
other countries use a tax-system that looks for the hp
of the cars. Furthermore,
the less boost the better the milage and the better
the result in tests :)
Interestingly, my milage went up after increasing
boost ;-)
> A 3000GT with 13G's should be able to easily pull 12's
bone stock.
No way, the bigger torque in the midrange is eaten up by the
more lag. The 2nd
Gen EU car is better due to the 6 speed but lag can still
be felt.
> BTW, Gavin Wallis mentioned that it is pointless to make a
stock
> turbo'd 3000GT run 11's b/c it would cost $10k to gut it and
put
> slicks and a rollcage on it.
It depends on the rules. I
learned from people that when dialing in and you give
em a low 12 they only
allow you to run with a roll cage installed. But you are
right, I think high
11s are possible with less than 10k.
Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT ...
low 13s
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:17:30 +0200
From: Roger Gerl <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Boost ? ? ? ? ? ?
?
> Since UPRD was not
able(willing?) to install my Magnecore wires and
> NGK plugs, I have not
yet gapped my plugs to the proper setting. I DO notice
> stumbling when at
WOT, but I'm curious if the misfiring is actually causing
> harm to my
engine. Other than the obvious performance impact, am I damaging
>
anything by running like a bat outta hell without gapping the plugs?
Yes
and no. This because the missfires can cause detonation but also
activates
the knock monitor that finally retards the timing. The stumbeling
you feel is
around 5400 - 5700 where the most power/torque is generated and
that's
definitely the timing that gets retarded.
I'd avoid running
further WOT until the plugs/wires are installed and the setup
is ok. With the
help of some of us you can do the job in 2 hours with normal
tools by
yourself (Mike Ch. did them on a hot engine and did not get a retarded
timing
again on the second dyno session)
Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT
TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:17:42 +0200
From: Roger Gerl <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: 550cc injectors on a 96VR4
> >From what I've experienced on
friends cars, 550cc injectors should not
> mess with OBD2. They
however will need either an AFC piggyback fuel
> computer, or
reprogramed ECU's to control the bigger injectors.
Del is absolutely
right. Use an AFC to tweak the ECU and to tune in the proper
fuel delivery or
get the ECU modified ($$$). There is also a good AF computer
from Field that
includes A/F meter and a G-Tech function ! The Supra guys love
it
:)
Regards,
Roger
BTW, The Z28 can use only slightly bigger
injectors and you have to use an AFPR
to make it proper running. But the best
results were achieved with a
reprogrammed ECU for sure (1.6 RR, LT4
cam)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 21 Apr 1999 06:20:03 -0400
From: Shawn Dewey <sdewey@dmv.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: For
Sale(Moderator message)
At 09:37 AM 4/21/99 +0200, you
wrote:
>Remember,
>
>Never ever reply to sale posts on the
list ! Always use the private email
>address of the poster when
interested.
>
>Also, everybody who writes an add like this please
insert a small sentence at
>the end that remainds the people to send
further emails privately.
>
>Thanks,
>Roger and the
Moderators
Sorry my goof the message was already out of the gate
before I saw where it
went.
I had ment to reply privately.
Thanks
for the reminder.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:03:12 -0500
From: xwing <xwing@execpc.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re:
ABS vs NonABS
Shane Thoms wrote:
> coefficient of friction is
higher when two objects have no relative motion
> (tire and
pavement)
> than when they are sliding. (relative velocity)
>
'perfect' ABS system would stop car in shortest distance by keeping tires
from
> sliding
>
> >If didn't have ABS could stopfaster
cause can lock wheels.
> >locking wheels stops faster than
ABS.
The friction available/coefficient of a rubber auto tire-to-pavement
surface is a
special circumstance.
It is HIGHER than static. The
greatest traction is at a certain percentage of
SLIP, I think
around
2-4%. This is called "incipient slide". The reason for
this is that it is NOT
simply the coefficient
of friction between rubber
tire and pavement! A significant part of total
traction available
involves
the SHEARING-OFF/grabbing the rubber of the tire by the road.
RUBBER tires press
down onto
the pavement but they also FIT INTO the very
small surface irregularities of
asphalt/concrete, sort
of forming a "lock
and key" with the surface. To cause THIS relationship to slip
therefore
involves
not just coefficient of friction but the shearing of the rubber
FITTED down into
the grooves in the
road. To do THIS you need MORE
force than the simple coefficient-derived amount,
you actually
slide the
tire some at maximum, shearing rubber off in process. This
is
"incipient slide", where
there is a small but measurable SLIP at
maximum braking/cornering. This is also
reflected some in
graphs of
steering wheel angle vs. lateral G-force obtained in cornering. As
you
turn steering
wheel, cornering G's increase up to a POINT, and beyond
that steering wheel angle
G-force
decreases because the tire is now
sliding TOO much.
A properly designed and properly performing ABS system
will beat attempts at
threshold
braking in the long haul. An
improperly performing ABS system can be bad.
An expert driver (?Busta?) may
be able to equal or occasionally outdo an average
ABS
system in a
controlled test...but lap after lap, in the face of VARYING
amounts
of
brake fade/performance, having a computer DEDICATED to assuring
optimum
slip amounts at each wheel is best. It will save spinouts as
fronts heat and
rears
maintain braking action. It can be somewhat
forgotten about so one can
concentrate one's
LIMITED attention span on
track, cornering, other cars, combatting fatigue.
As it says in "A Twist
of the Wrist", a motorcycle roadracing book, if you have
$10 worth of
attention to "spend" on track, where do you choose to spend it?
If you have
to spend $5 to do accurate threshold braking at every corner, and
adjust for
fade etc, while I can just barrel on in and slam the brakes letting
ABS do
the job CONSISTENTLY (remember? the key?) eventually
I will pass
you because you will spin or being human (right?!) and imperfect
you
will NOT be perfect and will be incapable of perfect full-on
threshold
braking
sometimes.
Do you know WHY Formula 1 banned
ABS? Because teams WANTED IT,
because it was BETTER. Formula 1
does NOT ban wooden-spoked wheels--
know why? Because NO ONE WANTS THEM so
they don't NEED a rule
against them! like they DO need one
against ABS (and AWD, by the way--another
technology banned due to
superiority...and like turbos in many classes of
racing.)
If you want
to compare tested braking in a straight line with
no
stress/racing/fatigue
then people MAY be around as good as ABS, setting
the test up as tilted
against ABS as possible. For lap after lap real
world, with a good ABS system,
step aside or spin aside, either way.
News flash: Michael Schumacher, NONE
of us are. ABS in OUR
cars may not be "Michael Schumacher in a Box", but
they ARE Mario Andretti in
a box, and that is PLENTY better than ANY of us...
Jack
Tertadian
BTW, Car and Driver did a test of Threshold Braking vs. just
JAMMING on NON-
ABS brakes=locking up tires, YEARS ago. It proved
that
jamming on brakes max at the instant one sees a need to stop maximally
(like
a deer in the road) people are best off SLAMMING on brakes and
sliding
tires than "threshold braking" because the relatively slower
application of
brakes required to approach-and-not-exceed threshold COSTS
braking
distance that overall is NOT gained back by the somewhat superior
G-force
EVENTUALLY obtained by proper threshold brake
technique.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:39:33 -0500
From: xwing <xwing@execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Brembo $2g kit, was: Re: Basic brake upgrade
George Kuo wrote:
I was
very disappointed
> I complained to Stillen/Brembo. They
told me 'this is
> not unusual, cross-drill rotors crack.. race cars go
through rotors
> everyday.. and you had 4 weekends out of
them'... =(
> George '92 RT TT
I have had Stillen
Brembo upgrade since around 1996. I specifically bought
the
NONcrossdrilled, NONslotted rotors because of the propensity toward
cracking
that I know such to have. Mine have never cracked beyond the
small superficial
patina one can sometimes see. They have finally
warped some, and need to be
turned...after several driving schools. The
Pagid Blue pads wear like IRON
(last a LONG time) but coefficient of friction
seems less than Porterfield R4,
which wear faster.
It seems we need a
heirarchy of braking systems available to our cars, from best to
least, and
cost/features of each. I will start one, everybody else can modify it,
add
brands, change order, it is just a start based on my limited knowledge,
off top of head
(NOT researched, please correct errors, Roger and
Brad et al!) (Brad I don't know
if yours or Bremsa is better, let's hash this
out to the best of our ability!)
PAD SIZE is important, if can get this
info--great! One reason my Stillen/Brembos
are so much better than
stock is the PADS are way longer/wider/THICKER...
From best to
"worst":
Front Brakes
Brand
size
cost
special
features/Questions
1) AP
Racing 14" 6-piston
system ?$6000 WHERE to get, KVR? is
bolton?
2)
Bremsa
12.6" (322mm)
?$ Aluminum hats
?Brembo
caliper
3) Brad
Bedell 12.6"
(322mm)
$1500 Steel hats, Brembo caliper
4)
Stillen/Brembo
12.2"
$2000 Steel hats Braided
lines
5) ?Baer
Racing
?
? No idea/should
be
called!
6)
?MovIt
?
? No Idea, is
it
BOLTON?
6) Mitsubishi 94+
12.1"
boneyard cheap better than 91-93
7) Mitsubishi
91-93
11.2"
" cheap
Rear
Brakes:
1)
Bremsa
?size
?cost Roger mentioned
them;
details?
2)
94+
?size dual piston
cheap bigger than 91-93
3)
91-93
?10.1" single piston cheap
Brake pads: (This may
just be a list of features/experiences, there is balance between
longevity,
friction, dust--which do YOU choose as most important etc?
1) Pagid
Blue
last LONG, moderate dust, expensive, average
friction
2) Porterfield
R4
last shorter, alot of nasty dust, brake great/high
friction
3)
Performance Friction Z last long, mod. dust, mod. friction (I
didn't RACE these)
3) Mitsu Stock
91-93 Not
Recommended For Roadracing; little dust though
I do not trust
crossdrilled rotors yet, nor do I NOW trust slotted rotors based on
the
catastrophic failures suffered in use--you FIRST need to be able to TRUST
your
brakes, at LEAST that they won't explode on you...
Hope this is
useful as a starter list! Add/modify/change away! Call places,
get info!
Jack Tertadian
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