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From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com (Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S Digest V1 #157
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Precedence: bulk


Team3S Digest         Tuesday, April 20 1999         Volume 01 : Number 157




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 07:08:19 -0400
From: Pete Ryner <pryner@ij.net>
Subject: Team3S: Twin pipe gasket

I just changed my plugs (not too bad a job) and found the seal between the inlet "twin" pipe and the throttle body was destroyed.  Apparently a mechanic along the way forced it on without watching what he was doing and cut the gasket which left about half of it inside the pipe, blocking my intake.  No wonder performance was poor!  Anyway, I've seen other postings about replacing the gasket.  Are they available?  Are there substitutes if not? 
Pete Ryner
91 VR4


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:00:50 -0500
From: xwing <xwing@execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Twin pipe gasket

Pete Ryner wrote:

>  seal between inlet "twin" pipe [Air Hose "A"] and throttle body was destroyed.   left half inside pipe, blocking intake.  No wonder performance was poor!   about replacing the gasket-- Are they available?  Are there substitutes if not?
> Pete Ryner 91 VR4

The seals are not available; if you can't reinsert the rubber onto the pipe and repair with Super Glue (worked for me) you have to change the pipe.  Can get stock pipe, or get metal version that should hold better on high boost from Alamo (black crinkle fininsh steel) or ?ATR.
Jack Tertadian


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:04:12 -0500
From: "Omar Malik" <ojm@iname.com>
Subject: Team3S: gasket remover?

Could any suggest, if there exists such a thing, something that would remove
old gaskets? Specifically the water pump gasket. It looks like a paper/fibre
type gasket, could be rubber, and has been sitting on there for the past 7
years. I'd really like to get it all off and not have to resort to scraping.
Maybe a good soak with wd40 will do the trick?

Omar
92 r/t

PS My engine cleanup is coming along nicely. Almost everything is out except
for the motor, transmission, power steering, A/C and brake stuff. Almost all
tubes, hoses, wires and such have been removed for cleaning, as well as the
throttle body, plenum, intake manifold, injectors, etc. What color would
look good on the plenum? I was thinking yellow, as the rest of the accents
on my car are yellow, and i'll put yellow vacuum tubes and such in. How
about the valve cover? black with yellow letters? Ideas are welcome for
consideration.


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:06:49 -0400
From: Gavin Wallis <WallisG@mwaa.com>
Subject: Team3S: Brembo $2g kit, was: Re: Basic brake upgrade

are you saying you cracked the brembos from the big brembo upgrade
kit? That would stink considering i was giving a lot of consideration to
those brakes...

Anybody out there have the $2000 brembo kit? Experencies?

Thanks,
Gavin

>>> George Kuo <amkreadgto@yahoo.com> 04/18/99 06:16am >>>


- --- wce@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:

> Out of curiosity George, wht did it cost, and how
> well did they mangae to cross drill
> your stock rotors?  Was it a decent job? And, it
> sounds like they performed reasonably
> well as an option to the full race financial maiming
> aftermarket options...or am I
> "trying" to read to much into this  :-)

I am very satisfied with the Porterfield pre-treated stock rotors..
cost me about $60each plus $50each for cross-drilling.  Their
workmanship is superb.. they look alot better than the cross-drilled
rotors that came with my Brembo kit.. which cracked after 3-4 weekend
of racing.. the pads for stock caliper is $129/front set.. for Brembo
caliper $159/front set.. if they don't know what size or part # the
pads for our Brembo kit are.. just tell them u want pads for the
Ferrari F40!! =)

I happen to have a pic of the rotors.. I'll email it privately to you.
Anyone who wants to see it please email me..

Porterfield's #: 800 537 6842.. hope this # still works.. haven't been
there or call for over a year..

George
Sunny S. Cal.. summer tires all year long~ =)
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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:09:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Kuo <amkreadgto@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brembo $2g kit, was: Re: Basic brake upgrade

- --- Gavin Wallis <WallisG@mwaa.com> wrote:
> are you saying you cracked the brembos from the big
> brembo upgrade
> kit? That would stink considering i was giving a lot
> of consideration to
> those brakes...
>
> Anybody out there have the $2000 brembo kit?
> Experencies?
>
> Thanks,
> Gavin
>

Yes, I was very disappointed too.. I paid alot of money for those
brakes and would think it would last longer.  I went and complained to
the Stillen/Brembo division here in Costa Mesa.  They told me 'this is
not unusual, cross-drill rotors do crack.. race cars go through rotors
everyday.. and you had 4 weekends out of them'...   =(

George
'92 RT TT

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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:26:28 -0700
From: Ken Middaugh <middaugh@omega.gat.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Track report

Hi Rich,

Great report.  That is incredible that two PowerSlot rotors cracked at
two different times, each on their first day of a track event.  I guess
they can be ruled out for extreme performance conditions.  Try the KVR
or Porterfield rotors next and give us a report.  Maybe you'll also want
to talk to Brad Bedall about his brake kit that replaces the stock
calipers with OE Porsche (Brembo) and the stock rotors with KVR.

This information is extremely valuable since I know many folks will
upgrade their brakes in the future.  I'm sorry it is so costly for you
though.

Thanks,
Ken (eagerly awaiting the next report on different rotors)

- --
How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost!

Ken Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:28:30 -0400
From: Gavin Wallis <WallisG@mwaa.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brembo $2g kit, was: Re: Basic brake upgrade -Reply

That is f-ing obnoxious. How hard to race them? And how did they work
before they cracked?

IS THERE NO REAL BRAKE UPGRADE FOR US...:(

Gavin
'94 Black VR-4

>>> George Kuo <amkreadgto@yahoo.com> 04/19/99 02:09pm >>>
Yes, I was very disappointed too.. I paid alot of money for those
brakes and would think it would last longer.  I went and complained to
the Stillen/Brembo division here in Costa Mesa.  They told me 'this is
not unusual, cross-drill rotors do crack.. race cars go through rotors
everyday.. and you had 4 weekends out of them'...   =(

George
'92 RT TT

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:44:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Kuo <amkreadgto@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brembo $2g kit, was: Re: Basic brake upgrade -Reply

Hey now.. don't get me wrong.. the Brembo caliper is AWESOME.. I didn't
get the brake kit for the rotors, but for them massive calipers..
Stillen wanted too much for replacement rotors.. so I figured if they
were gona crack anyways.. why not go to cheaper rotors.. but the
Porterfield pre-treated stocker are great..

George

- --- Gavin Wallis <WallisG@mwaa.com> wrote:
> That is f-ing obnoxious. How hard to race them? And
> how did they work
> before they cracked?
>
> IS THERE NO REAL BRAKE UPGRADE FOR US...:(
>
> Gavin
> '94 Black VR-4
>
> >>> George Kuo <amkreadgto@yahoo.com> 04/19/99
> 02:09pm >>>
> Yes, I was very disappointed too.. I paid alot of
> money for those
> brakes and would think it would last longer.  I went
> and complained to
> the Stillen/Brembo division here in Costa Mesa.
> They told me 'this is
> not unusual, cross-drill rotors do crack.. race cars
> go through rotors
> everyday.. and you had 4 weekends out of them'... 
> =(
>
> George
> '92 RT TT
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:57:09 -0400
From: Gavin Wallis <WallisG@mwaa.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brembo $2g kit, was: Re: Basic brake upgrade -Reply -Reply

How what is the performance like over stock? And what do you mean
by "Porterfield pre-treated stocker". Is this a "stock" rotor with some type
of treatment? Also does the brembo kit increase the rotor size? This kit is
seemingly not very impressive...

Thanks,
Gavin

>>> George Kuo <amkreadgto@yahoo.com> 04/19/99 03:44pm >>>
Hey now.. don't get me wrong.. the Brembo caliper is AWESOME.. I didn't
get the brake kit for the rotors, but for them massive calipers..
Stillen wanted too much for replacement rotors.. so I figured if they
were gona crack anyways.. why not go to cheaper rotors.. but the
Porterfield pre-treated stocker are great..

George


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:10:38 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brembo $2g kit, was: Re: Basic brake upgrade-Reply

Gavin,

> That is f-ing obnoxious. How hard to race them? And how did they work
> before they cracked?
> IS THERE NO REAL BRAKE UPGRADE FOR US...:(

Calm down, there is no need to yell at us.

Go to this link : http://www.ultimategarage.com/bigbrake.html

These brakes are using the big Brembo calipers with Porsche mods. Also the rotor
is from Porsche, but not for all applications. As far as I know they are made by
the same company as the Bremsas then and also use then the same blue anodized
Erdal hub. I think the ones for our cars will be like that.

Spend mucho money and you have your brake system :)

Roger
- -----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:58:44 -0500
From: S J Cowan <sjc0u812@juno.com>
Subject: Team3S: Busy Weekend

Hey all:

As I mentioned in my previous post, this weekend began the reclaiming of
the car back to "normal" from old man winter.  Besides the cleaning of
the "snake eye" lenses, I also did Wayne's fog light mod (thanks much
Wayne!) and I tapped into the extra accessory plug wires and ran the wire
for the radar detector in the dash, allowing me to actually reach the
radio controls.  I also reattached a tailpipe that was thinking of
falling off (one side of the u-shaped arms where the screws go in had
broken off) by using a stainless steel screw through the drip hole.  I
drilled directly up the middle of the pipe.  This was amongst waxing,
cleaning, etc.  It almost looks normal again.  And I cleaned the backside
of  the "snake eye" lenses, which made a huge difference.

You may remember myself and another having our SRS lights come on
recently also.  Well, my anti-lock light just came on too.  I've got to
believe that this is related to simply running a diagnostic's on the car
at a preset mileage as it's never run better.  Anyone?  Seems way to
coincidental to me.

Best,

Scott
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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:03:45 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Track report (brakes)

Thanks for the nice track story :)

> front straight at 110, got on the brakes - and BANG! I broke another
> PowerSlot slotted rotor. Just like last year, I broke that sucker in two.

Unfortunately, this proves what frinds from the Camaro/Firebird lists
experienced. PowerSlots work good but over a specific temperature they will go
:(( If you have them on your car just be aware not to overheat them. Did you
felt a fading before the crack ?

> Since my brakes came back to life 20 minutes later after they cooled in the
> pits, I concluded that I had boiled the brake fluid. It's Racing Blue, BTW.

And you know why ! The rotors are not able to take up the heat and therefore all
other parts will be heated up too. Especially the pads and the calipers. Finally
the brake fluid will start boiling if the rotors are not cooled enough to take
the heat away.

> When driven harder, it eats brakes faster. It's a heavy, fast car, and the
> brakes are not up to the task. We gotta work on this!

Yes, put Bremsas on it, go for the Porsche setup or spend $6000 on the ap-racing
setup. If you stay using the PowerSlots it's just a matter of time till the
stuff cracks again and you're in danger to go off the track. You're lucky not
ended like the M3 or Porsche.

> My new brake cooling air ducts seem to work. Although I lost the brakes
> every session, I didn't come off the track a single time with smoking
> brakes like I did last year. And I could work on the brakes almost
> immediately - last year, I had to wait 15 minutes before going near them
> because they were so hot. So the ducts ARE cooling them down, just not
> enough.

Any little air that helps to cool down the rotors help. Why not installing a
thermocouple to the calipers to check out the real temperature. After my last
driving class the Bremsas were really damn hot and I burnt my finger. The Pagid
pads look more worn than expected with typical signs of overheating (looks like
very small parts left the pads and caused small holes) You can also see some
small grooves on the rotor then.

> Braking problems will be the subject of my next post - "Adventures in
> Braking" I have a coupla ideas to bounce off the tech wizards. I'm getting
> dang sick and tired of working in "Old Poop's Brake Shop" for the entire
> weekend.

Well, I think only good rotors, a set of expensive pads and braided steel lines
(dunno if you have them already) will bring you forward. Going to the Brembo big
brakes will help you from the calipers view. Interestingly, the Brembo upgrade
uses smaller rotors than my EU car has stock ?! For about $2650 you should be
able to get the MovIt Porsche/Brembo upgrade for the fronts (gulp) IMHO, this is
the best bang for the buck and I heard nothing but good about them (Supra, M3,
M5).

BTW, just always bleed the brakes before you go to the track. Only a little air
in it helps to heat it up more then normal.

Regards,
Roger

- -----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,HKS SBOV,
ATR DP/ tespipe,Borla Cat-back,OZ Mito2 rims,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,
Bremsa brakes,Pagid RS-R pads

Check out: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/3000gt.html

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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:45:18 -0500
From: S J Cowan <sjc0u812@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: SRS light

Hey Michael:

My anti-lock light came on this morning also.  Any luck on your end?
I've got to believe that it simply requires running diagnostics.

Scott

On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:54:33 -0700 (PDT) Michael Klassen
<mike_klassen@yahoo.com> writes:
>I just looked up the TSB's at all data, what do you suppose this one
>says?
>
>080293 JAN 93       Supplemental Restraint Diagnostic Code Erase
>Function
>
>Mike
>
>--- Michael Klassen <mike_klassen@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Scott
>> What a coincidence!  Mine has 108k (kilometers) as well.  I don't
>believe in
>> coincidence, what about you?
>> Mike
>>
>> --- Scott J Cowan <sjc0u812@juno.com> wrote:
>> > Mike:
>> >
>> > I'm going through the same thing right now.  Mine came on Friday. 
>The
>> > dealer wants $35 to run the diagnostics to tell me what's wrong. 
>One
>> > person indicated that it *may* come on at a preset interval for
>checking,
>> > but I don't know if that's true or not.  Another indicated that
>the
>> > dealer simply by running the diagnostics would turn it back off. 
>Again,
>> > I don't know if that's true either.  I asked the mechanic this and
>he
>> > indicated that this scenario only applied to other vehicles like
>trucks
>> > and such, not in this instance with this system.  Basically he
>told me
>> > one of the sensors must be bad.  I'm not sure I beleive that
>either.  I'm
>> > curious, how many miles do you have on yours?  I just turned
>108,5K.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Scott
>> > '92 VR4
>> >
>> > >My SRS light is on and I was wondering if anyone knew a way to
>reset
>> > >it?  I
>> > >took it to the dealer and they found that it was both rear wheel
>
>> > >sensors that
>> > >had gotten iced up.  They cleaned them off and it went off. It's
>too
>> > >warm for
>> > >any ice build up now.  Maybe its moisture buildup?  Any ideas?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>___________________________________________________________________
>> > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet
>e-mail.
>> > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at
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>> > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>> > For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>> > http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>> >
>>
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>
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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:37:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Kuo <amkreadgto@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brembo $2g kit, was: Re: Basic brake upgrade -Reply -Reply

Hey Gavin,

  I don't know if anyone from the list is interested in our little
discussion here.. so if you have more questions or thoughts please
email me privately... I don't want the TEAM 3S police pulling us over..
hehe

  As for the Brembo rotors.. I think they were 12.8in.. and the '93+
stockers were 13.1in.. I've heard the 13.1 rotors will not fit in 1st
gen wheels.. besides.. i don't think bigger rotors adds to braking
power.. it's all about the calipers..

  As for 'Porterfield pre-treated'.. they heat-treat the stockers to
make them stronger and will stand higher temp.. atleast thats what they
told me..

  The Brembo rotors are not impressive.. the caliper is.. If you are
into road racing and need constant stopping power from 140+mph laps
after laps, this is the way to go.. if you're into 1/4mile or
occasional street/hwy races.. maybe the stock caliper is sufficent..
maybe.. hehe

  On a side note.. a friend of mine.. (remember 'White Lighting' years
ago?? haha).. we tested out our top speed on the long straight stretch
of road to Vegas.. he hit 180mph (on his speedometer).. then tried to
brake.. his stock brakes completely failed.. luckily there was no
traffic at all and the car eventually slowed down.. I tried the same
thing.. didn't quite hit 180.. about 175.. i was scared =( ... but my
Brembos worked!! The moral of this story?? hmm.. Got Brembo??

George
'92 RT TT

p.s. Does anyone know if AP make a 6 piston brake kit for our car???

- --- Gavin Wallis <WallisG@mwaa.com> wrote:
> How what is the performance like over stock? And
> what do you mean
> by "Porterfield pre-treated stocker". Is this a
> "stock" rotor with some type
> of treatment? Also does the brembo kit increase the
> rotor size? This kit is
> seemingly not very impressive...
>
> Thanks,
> Gavin
>


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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:26:15 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Track report

At 11:26 AM 4/19/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi Rich,
>
>Great report.  That is incredible that two PowerSlot rotors cracked at
>two different times, each on their first day of a track event.  I guess
>they can be ruled out for extreme performance conditions. 

My sentiments exactly. My rotors actually broke into two pieces, with the
rotor snapping away from the hub.


Try the KVR
>or Porterfield rotors next and give us a report.  Maybe you'll also want
>to talk to Brad Bedall about his brake kit that replaces the stock
>calipers with OE Porsche (Brembo) and the stock rotors with KVR.

I think we just heard in a previous post that Brembos crack.
As I understand it, the Brembos remain in one piece, and just crack at the
drilled holes. If they are breaking apart like mine do, that's dangerous.
>
>This information is extremely valuable since I know many folks will
>upgrade their brakes in the future. 

We gotta solve the problem! The VR4 is such a great car otherwise.

I'm sorry it is so costly for you
>though.

I'll drink to that.
>
Rich/old poop


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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:24:56 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brembo $2g kit, was: Re: Basic brake upgrade-Reply

>
>Go to this link : http://www.ultimategarage.com/bigbrake.html
>
>These brakes are using the big Brembo calipers with Porsche mods. Also the
rotor
>is from Porsche, but not for all applications. As far as I know they are
made by
>the same company as the Bremsas then and also use then the same blue anodized
>Erdal hub. I think the ones for our cars will be like that.

I went to the site, and did not find our car listed.
For $3,000 a set, I think I'll look elsewhere anyway.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:49:41 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Basic brake upgrade

>I am very satisfied with the Porterfield pre-treated stock rotors..<snip>
>I happen to have a pic of the rotors.. I'll email it privately to you.
>Anyone who wants to see it please email me..

George:

Sorry, for the public reply, but I couldn't figure out what your e-mail
address is.
I'd like a copy of the pic.

The Porterfields actually last, eh? How often do you have to change front
pads?
At $120 a front set, I hope it's not too often.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4

merritt@cedar-rapids.net

>
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:43:46 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Track report (brakes)

At 09:03 PM 4/19/99 +0200, you wrote:
>Thanks for the nice track story :)

You're welcome.
>
>> front straight at 110, got on the brakes - and BANG! I broke another
>> PowerSlot slotted rotor. Just like last year, I broke that sucker in two.
>
>Unfortunately, this proves what frinds from the Camaro/Firebird lists
>experienced. PowerSlots work good but over a specific temperature they
will go
>:(( If you have them on your car just be aware not to overheat them. Did you
>felt a fading before the crack ?

Yes, but it was at the end of the session, and my brakes always start going
away by then.
But, like I noted in the part about my air ducts, they don't appear to be
getting all that hot.
>
>
>> When driven harder, it eats brakes faster. It's a heavy, fast car, and the
>> brakes are not up to the task. We gotta work on this!
>
>Yes, put Bremsas on it, go for the Porsche setup or spend $6000 on the
ap-racing
>setup. If you stay using the PowerSlots it's just a matter of time till the
>stuff cracks again and you're in danger to go off the track. You're lucky not
>ended like the M3 or Porsche.

Unless PowerSlot comes through with a better solution, I am done with them.
I've been lucky both times that the rotors snapped at either a reasonable
speed or in a location where I could handle suddenly having no brakes at
all. The other problem is that when they break in two like that, they can
very easily slice off the caliper. I don't care to take that chance again.

Going to the Brembo big
>brakes will help you from the calipers view. Interestingly, the Brembo
upgrade
>uses smaller rotors than my EU car has stock ?! For about $2650 you should be
>able to get the MovIt Porsche/Brembo upgrade for the fronts (gulp) IMHO,
this is
>the best bang for the buck and I heard nothing but good about them (Supra,
M3,
>M5).

For $2650, they BETTER be good. Too much for me, though.
As for your Brembo upgrade, I recall that you complained about it recently.
>
>BTW, just always bleed the brakes before you go to the track. Only a
little air
>in it helps to heat it up more then normal.

Yep, did that too.

>
Rich/old poop/94 VR4
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:39:14 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brembo $2g kit, was: Re: Basic brake upgrade -Reply -Reply

At 01:37 PM 4/19/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Hey Gavin,
>
>  I don't know if anyone from the list is interested in our little
>discussion here.. so if you have more questions or thoughts please
>email me privately... I don't want the TEAM 3S police pulling us over..
>hehe

No, no, no!  Keep the brake discussion out here. I'm interested.
>
Rich/old poop
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:46:41 -0700
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: Brake failure???

George...

Any particular reason why the stock brakes would fail due to high speed? Or
was it excessive fade due to repeated hard use? I've had my VR4 over 140mph
a number of times and plan to peg the speedo with my new mods. The thought
of tripping some hidden "you're going too fast" switch that cuts out the
brakes would be enough to cramp my style.  :-)

BTW...have people had the same problem with Stillen rotors cracking and/or
breaking?

Looking forward...Chris

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4 (w/HKS Super Flo intake, TEC 15G turbos, bored
and polished throttle body, RC 560cc injectors, HKS fuel pump, GReddy PRofec
A boost controller, G-force ECU upgrade, HKS SBOV, custom intercoolers,
Predator dry cell battery, Magnecore 8.5mm wires, NGK double platinum plugs
gapped at .030", ATR downpipe and test pipe, GReddy catback exhaust, GReddy
turbo timer, Eibach 1" drop progressive springs)

- -----Original Message-----
From: George Kuo [mailto:amkreadgto@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, April 19, 1999 1:37 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brembo $2g kit, was: Re: Basic brake upgrade -Reply
- -Reply

<snip>

  On a side note.. a friend of mine.. (remember 'White Lighting' years
ago?? haha).. we tested out our top speed on the long straight stretch
of road to Vegas.. he hit 180mph (on his speedometer).. then tried to
brake.. his stock brakes completely failed.. luckily there was no
traffic at all and the car eventually slowed down.. I tried the same
thing.. didn't quite hit 180.. about 175.. i was scared =( ... but my
Brembos worked!! The moral of this story?? hmm.. Got Brembo??

George
'92 RT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:58:16 -0700
From: Ken Middaugh <middaugh@omega.gat.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Track report

Merritt wrote:
>

>
> Try the KVR
> >or Porterfield rotors next and give us a report.  Maybe you'll also want
> >to talk to Brad Bedall about his brake kit that replaces the stock
> >calipers with OE Porsche (Brembo) and the stock rotors with KVR.
>
> I think we just heard in a previous post that Brembos crack.
> As I understand it, the Brembos remain in one piece, and just crack at the
> drilled holes. If they are breaking apart like mine do, that's dangerous.

Whoops, I think you misunderstood me.  In Brad's kit, which by the way
is about $1500 last time I checked, only the calipers are OE
Porsche/Brembo.  The rotors are KVR.  As far as I know, no one on any of
our lists has broken a rotor by KVR or Porterfield. 

Maybe Brad can join this discussion and add his experience.

- --
How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost!

Ken Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:17:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Kuo <amkreadgto@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: Brake failure???

Chris,

  This particular 180mph wild ride's brake failure was due to the
weight of the car and imagine the velocity of it at that speed.. i
think the stock calipers just didnt have enough power to grab the
rotors.. there was no excessive braking prior.. i would imagine a big
difference in the power needed to stop our cars at 140 and at 180...
but of course i got a 'D' in physics in HS.  =)

- --- Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com> wrote:
> George...
>
> Any particular reason why the stock brakes would
> fail due to high speed? Or
> was it excessive fade due to repeated hard use? I've
> had my VR4 over 140mph
> a number of times and plan to peg the speedo with my
> new mods.

> Looking forward...Chris
>

> -----Original Message-----

> <snip>
>
>   On a side note.. a friend of mine.. (remember
> 'White Lighting' years
> ago?? haha).. we tested out our top speed on the
> long straight stretch
> of road to Vegas.. he hit 180mph (on his
> speedometer).. then tried to
> brake.. his stock brakes completely failed.. luckily
> there was no
> traffic at all and the car eventually slowed down..
> I tried the same
> thing.. didn't quite hit 180.. about 175.. i was
> scared =( ... but my
> Brembos worked!! The moral of this story?? hmm.. Got
> Brembo??
>
> George
> '92 RT TT


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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:55:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Kuo <amkreadgto@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S: SX fuel filter

Hi List,

  Does anyone know if the SX fuel filters from Nexusmotorsports are
direct replacements?? Do they flow better than stock? I'm in need to
replace the fuel filter soon, just wondering if I should stay with
stock or something else.  Any input in appreciated. Thanx. Oh yea,
whats the price of the stock unit?

George
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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:00:16 -0500
From: Del A Kolasinski <pearlvr42c@juno.com>
Subject: Team3S: Walbro Fuel Pump Upgrade vs. HKS

Hoping to get some good feedback here.
I recently found an amazing deal on Walbro fuel pump upgrades for the
VR4.  Now originally I was going to get the HKS upgrade but for the price
I don't know.  The Walbro flows 255 liters per hour, what does the HKS
flow?  Does the Walbro simply slide into the stock mounting brackets like
I heard the HKS does, or does it require modifications?  And does anyone
know how much HP a Walbro will support?  Or is everyones opinion that the
HKS is the way to go.
Thanks for all info,
Del Kolasinski
PEARLVR42C@juno.com
wisc.dsm.org

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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:20:06 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: Brake failure???

Friends,

> As for your Brembo upgrade, I recall that you complained about it recently.

Please don't mix-up the Brembo upgrade and other upgrades using Brembo parts !

The known Brembo upgrade is from Stillen using their own rotors and Brembo
calipers used at the F40 (nice older Ferrari, not that heavy car). Dunno about
the pads. I heard different things about this kit and they were always bad on
the rotor side. I think the price was around $2150 for the fronts but some had
trouble when doing the calipers (bolt cracked, rotors tend to crack from the
drills to the edge).

Then there are other combinations like the ones from MovIt. They use the Porsche
rotors together with some newer Brembo calipers modified for Porsche (larger
piston diameter). Also you can get the calipers with KVR discs and pads. The
price is around $2750 and yes, it is available for our cars. Some people just
update their web site once a year ;-)

I can even get this kit together with the Bremsa disks from my supplier but the
price is huge (gulp).

On the physics side it's very important

> stockers were 13.1in.. I've heard the 13.1 rotors will not fit in 1st
> gen wheels.

Yes, they must be 17"

>. besides.. i don't think bigger rotors adds to braking
> power.. it's all about the calipers.

A big NO here ! Larger rotors are able to move more heat away due to the larger
surface. Also the way the rotor travels trough the pads on one turn is longer
the larger the center of the calipers is away from the axle. Therefore a larger
diameter is not getting that hot as a smaller one. Simple physical things.

Bigger calipers are having a larger area that can remove more heat away from the
fluid and the pads. The power of our stock calipers is very good and I can tell
you a great stopping power with the setup I do have. As said the bigger calipers
will help to remove the heat as well as they are needed when getting larger
disks/rotors.

Please also do not forget the force that acts on the parts at the suspension ! A
kit for our cars MUST consider the weakest elements on the front suspension
parts and this is why no 330mm setup is available. This stopping power could
definitely crack some parts around the wheel and this is too dangerous. As far
as I know the 321mm is the max size with a 4-pot caliper and 30mm thick disks.
An ap-racing caliper would fit 17" while using the Brembo caliper needs 18" with
this large rotors.

Regarding the price, you'll get what you pay for. The danger of a cracking rotor
and the damage that could occur would be worth this money. I do not often race
the car than on a small test track here in Switzerland. It is large enough to
get the stock ones fading and loosing some seconds. I paid about $1000 for the
Bremsa disks/hubs and another $200 for the Pagids. On the track or when braking
down very hard they are amazing and the rear ones just completed this (they
helped to keep the car straight when braking hard). How much worth is security
and braking power ? If you go for such a race every once in a month, just do the
calculation. Maybe $2000 - $3000 is then not too expensive anymore.

If anyone is planning to install a bleeder valve (urgh) he will have more power
but not the power to stop. If you plan to go the power path you must also go the
way to stop your monster. I thought this right after installing the BC and got
the new sets of rotors only a week after the more power kicked in.
Unfortunately, this is the expensive way, but if you don't want to go this, then
watch out every turn and feel like the brake pedal is vibrating more and more.
This would scare me too much :)

Regards,
Roger

- -----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,HKS SBOV,
ATR DP/ tespipe,Borla Cat-back,OZ Mito2 rims,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,
Bremsa brakes,Pagid RS-R pads

Check out: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/3000gt.html

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:23:56 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: SX fuel filter

>   Does anyone know if the SX fuel filters from Nexusmotorsports are
> direct replacements?? Do they flow better than stock?

Yes it flows better but no, it is not a direct replacement. You need to get
banjo-adapters or more to make everything fit. But the stock one is good and I
don0t plan to replace it until the big AFPR and fuel rail will find their way
into the car.

Later,
Roger

- -----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:31:17 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Walbro Fuel Pump Upgrade vs. HKS

> I recently found an amazing deal on Walbro fuel pump upgrades for the
> VR4.

Yes, get it directly from the DSM guy who does the GPs. Mikael from Sweden
ordered one from the last GP.

> Now originally I was going to get the HKS upgrade but for the price
> I don't know.  The Walbro flows 255 liters per hour, what does the HKS
> flow?

Well, here the BIG question kicks in : On what fuel pressure is this flow
measured ??? The Walbro you refer is the smaller one but they do have the bigger
one available that flow up to 290 litres per hour. If the HKS (Denso pump) is
measured at the same flow than you'll get around 341 l/hr.

The hp capabilty is not worth to mention as this depends too much on other
variables (or who know how much hp our cars are making at 290l/h ?)

Roger
- -----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:40:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Kuo <amkreadgto@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: Brake failure???

Good point Roger.. maybe that's why I got a 'D' in physics in HS.. and
you are the engineer.. hehe

Oh yea.. one important thing I forgot to mention.  7 of 10 front wheel
studs broke off while a mechanic was trying to take my wheels off last
year.  He said the studs are too weak for the Brembo setup.. he
recommend me changing them often.. I freaked out when I saw how easily
they just broke.. imagine that happening when I'm driving.. anyone know
a place that could make stronger studs??

George

- --- "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch> wrote:
> Friends,
>
> On the physics side it's very important

> >. besides.. i don't think bigger rotors adds to
> braking
> > power.. it's all about the calipers.
>
> A big NO here ! Larger rotors are able to move more
> heat away due to the larger
> surface. Also the way the rotor travels trough the
> pads on one turn is longer
> the larger the center of the calipers is away from
> the axle. Therefore a larger
> diameter is not getting that hot as a smaller one.
> Simple physical things.
>
> Bigger calipers are having a larger area that can
> remove more heat away from the
> fluid and the pads. The power of our stock calipers
> is very good and I can tell
> you a great stopping power with the setup I do have.
> As said the bigger calipers
> will help to remove the heat as well as they are
> needed when getting larger
> disks/rotors.
>
> Please also do not forget the force that acts on the
> parts at the suspension ! A
> kit for our cars MUST consider the weakest elements
> on the front suspension
> parts and this is why no 330mm setup is available.
> This stopping power could
> definitely crack some parts around the wheel and
> this is too dangerous. As far
> as I know the 321mm is the max size with a 4-pot
> caliper and 30mm thick disks.
> An ap-racing caliper would fit 17" while using the
> Brembo caliper needs 18" with
> this large rotors.
>

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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:41:57 -0700
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject: Team3S: Fuel Pressure Regulator

Roger...

Why are you planning on replacing your FPR? My understanding has been that
the stock unit is adequate to handle an aftermarket pump. Anyone already
replace their FPR along with an injector and pump upgrade? Reasoning?

BTW...whoever was curious...the HKS pump is 90 gph, which my calculator
translates into 341 lph, for those who insist on the metric system.   :-)
It replaces the stock unit quite nicely.

Looking forward...Chris

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4 (w/HKS Super Flo intake, TEC 15G turbos, bored
and polished throttle body, RC 560cc injectors, HKS fuel pump, GReddy PRofec
A boost controller, G-force ECU upgrade, HKS SBOV, custom intercoolers,
Predator dry cell battery, Magnecore 8.5mm wires, NGK double platinum plugs
gapped at .030", ATR downpipe and test pipe, GReddy catback exhaust, GReddy
turbo timer, Eibach 1" drop progressive springs)

- -----Original Message-----
From: R.G. [mailto:robby@swissonline.ch]
Sent: Monday, April 19, 1999 3:24 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: SX fuel filter


>   Does anyone know if the SX fuel filters from Nexusmotorsports are
> direct replacements?? Do they flow better than stock?

Yes it flows better but no, it is not a direct replacement. You need to get
banjo-adapters or more to make everything fit. But the stock one is good and
I
don0t plan to replace it until the big AFPR and fuel rail will find their
way
into the car.

Later,
Roger
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:44:02 -0500
From: Del A Kolasinski <pearlvr42c@juno.com>
Subject: Team3S: High 11's w/ stock MAS?

Does anybody here have experience or a well backed opinion on how fast
you can go with the stock Mass Air Sensor?  Would high 11's be possible?
Reason being I was interested in getting an AFC for $350 (250 used), over
a VPC $850 and could then use the extra money on injectors and a fuel
pump.
Could a car using 13G's, 550cc's, upgraded pump, and an AFC run high 11
1/4 mile times?
Thanks all,
Del Kolasinski
PEARLVR42C@juno.com
wisc.dsm.org

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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 01:01:40 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: High 11's w/ stock MAS?

Del A Kolasinski wrote:
>
> Does anybody here have experience or a well backed opinion on how fast
> you can go with the stock Mass Air Sensor?  Would high 11's be possible?

I'm not sure but I think the limitation is not the MAS at this time. The 13G may
peak up to 1.3 bars but good boost is around 2.5bars. The 13G may not be able to
feed more air as the MAS can deliver anyway.

> Reason being I was interested in getting an AFC for $350 (250 used), over
> a VPC $850 and could then use the extra money on injectors and a fuel
> pump.

A bigger fuel pump is a MUST anyways as the injectors are. It seems you just
want to dump in the fuel to prevent detonation. With this you are wasting some
energy and I doubt that you'll see the 11s. Maybe with really loosing some
weight (I mean the car) but I'd vote for 12.15 at best.

Go for it and check it out. If it doesn't work liek desired you can still go for
a VPC later (by selling the AFC then)

Let us know how it works :)

Regards,
Roger

- -----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,HKS SBOV,
ATR DP/ tespipe,Borla Cat-back,OZ Mito2 rims,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,
Bremsa brakes,Pagid RS-R pads

Check out: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/3000gt.html

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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:53:29 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Fuel Pressure Regulator

> Why are you planning on replacing your FPR? My understanding has been that
> the stock unit is adequate to handle an aftermarket pump. Anyone already
> replace their FPR along with an injector and pump upgrade? Reasoning?

Fine-tuning and increasing the flow from/to the fuel rail including replacing
the small connection pipe. I already have the Paxton AFPR and fuel filter but
have not decided yet how to mount everything (and where). After the 720cc,
bigger pump and the ECU I don't want the rails fed like they are today. Big
project ahead :)

Cheers,
Roger

- -----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,HKS SBOV,
ATR DP/ tespipe,Borla Cat-back,OZ Mito2 rims,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,
Bremsa brakes,Pagid RS-R pads

Check out: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/3000gt.html


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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:51:04 -0500
From: Del A Kolasinski <pearlvr42c@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: To Chris Winkley

Sorry to waste the bandwith but I lost your personal email address.
Noticed your turbo and injector upgrade.  My question is, does the GForce
ECU upgrade control all these upgrades good enough or are you looking
into other means of fuel management?
Thanks,
Del Kolasinski
PEARLVR42C@juno.com
wisc.dsm.org

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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:42:57 -0700
From: Errin Humphrey <errin@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Team3S: High 11's w/ stock Turbos?

A while back you guys were all debating about whether
or not a VR4 could run 11's on stock turbos.

Well, if I'm not mistaken, it has already been done in
Japan by the green Puma GTO N1, a second-gen VR4.
It ran 11.99 in the 400m, and according to its spec sheet
(and Henry Yam) it runs stock turbos because of the
class it races/raced in.  The car is completely gutted
w/ a rollcage with a total weight of 1460kg (3220lbs),
and it runs full slicks with about 8 degrees of neg. camber.

That's all for now.

- --Errin Humphrey
Yellow VR4

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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:42:22 -0400
From: josesini <josesini@engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: Brake failure???

Chris,

I have the Stillen rotors.  These are basically the stock size rotors,
but they are crossdrilled and have some vanadium (gold like color)
coating that supposed to prevent them from rusting (no rust = better
thermal conductivity).

I've only done autocrosses so I couldn't comment about stopping from
140mph turn after turn, but all I can say is that in a few autoXs I had
to break from 80mph down to about 15mph and the first few laps it was
OK, no detectable fading but the 4th one, I just couldn't stop.  On top
of that there was a lot of smoke coming out of my front wheels. 

One aspect about AutoXs is that you get about a 15min cooling period in
between laps so I'm sure that if I had to run continuos laps the breaks
would have failed on the last part of the 2nd lap or the beginning of
the 3rd. 

Luckily for me, no broken rotors yet!

In my opinion, the best way to get a very good brake setup is upgrading
to either the Bremsas, or the Porsche kit and then removing about 800
lbs from the car...  ;)

- -Jose
'92 Stealth TT - Stock calipers, stillen rotors (neither broken nor
warped - yet!)


Chris Winkley wrote:
><SNIP>
>
> BTW...have people had the same problem with Stillen rotors cracking
> and/or breaking?
>
> Looking forward...Chris
>
><SNIP>
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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:56:12 -0400
From: Irving & Ana Jimenez <lt1power@crystal.palace.net>
Subject: Team3S: Boost ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Hey Gang,

Well it looks like I'm thinking of doing a " Second Wave " of mods on my VR4
( This is the same guy that said " Its going to stay Stock " - Yeah Right )

Anyway, I'm thinking of doing the following on my car :

1.    HKS Super Sequential Blow Off Valve
2.    HKS Fuel Pump
3.    AFC ( or similar mod :o)

Mods currently on car are just the basic stuff :

Custom Exhaust, Downpipe, K&N, HKS EVC IV, and a boost gauge

So . . . .
. . . the question I want to ask is , can I up to boost to 16 - 17 lbs with the aid of
the expected fuel mods .
( If not 17, then at least 16 ? )
Please keep in mind that I will still have the stock injectors and turbos ( So is this
all just a pipe dream :o)

ALSO : Since my car is a 1996 VR4, will it set off the OBDII software in my computer (
e.g. the AFC ) ?

Thanx for any help you guys can offer

Irving
96 VR4
( current boost setting is only 14.5 lbs )





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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:22:06 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Adventures in braking-1999

Judging by my problems and those of others, and the posts winging their way
from Europe to the US and back, we have a serious braking problem with our
Stealth/3000 GT turbo cars.

It's simple: we are trying to stop a 3700 lb car that goes very, very fast,
and its stock brakes are not up to it.

Problems include:
PowerSlot slotted rotors tend to break. That is, the rotor separates from
the hub.
Stillen drilled rotors tend to crack at the drilled holes.
Brembo/Porsche parts are very, very expensive and still don't do the job.
We go through a set of pads PER DAY at open track events.

We need to find a solution.

I propose that we establish a little corner of the two groups devoted to
braking. Anyone who does not do any serious racing can ignore this
discussion. Just put "Braking" in the subject line, and those who don't
care can ignore all this.

First of all, we need to find out what DOES NOT work. For this, we need
horror stories. If you have done any road racing, autocrossing, rallying,
or any other endeavor that requires using brakes, please come back and tell
us what does not work.

We need to know:
What racing you do?
What parts did you use (rotors, calipers & pads)?
What happened? What went wrong? Did the rotors break or crack? Did your
pads wear out?

Second, we need to find out what DOES WORK.  For this, we need success
stories. Again, if you have done any road racing, etc., and your system
worked, please tell us about it.

Third, we need IDEAS.  There are dozens of brilliant engineers and racers
on these lists, and we ought to be able to solve anything.

Just to get us all started, read my second post. It contains all three
topics.

PLEASE contribute if you have anything that might help. Our cars are very
cometitive in open track events, if we can just stop  it!

Rich/old poop/94 VR4




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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:36:45 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: Brake failure???

>> As for your Brembo upgrade, I recall that you complained about it recently.
>
>Please don't mix-up the Brembo upgrade and other upgrades using Brembo
parts !

Say what? I think you lost me there.

Rich/old poop
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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:21:59 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Adventures in braking -- Old poop inputs

As promised, here's my input to the discussion.
I humbly suggest that everyone who wishes to contribute follow this format.

WHAT I DO
I run Porsche Club driver's schools/open track events. Done three so far. I
am in Group 2, which includes folks who have taken the novice driver's
course. I have run only at Heartland Park in Topeka, Kansas. I run
PowerSlot slotted rotors with Performance Friction 460Z PGD 631 pads.

THINGS THAT DO NOT WORK

PowerSlot slotted rotors do not work. I have broken two of them at open
track events. In both cases, under hard braking the rotor broke away from
the hub, rendering the entire braking system useless. Breaking a rotor in
half at high speed can also result in the loose rotor slicing off a
caliper. I will never use PowerSlot rotors again, and I urge you to not use
them either. The suckers are DANGEROUS.

ABS does not work:  Our ABS cannot deal with the loss of one wheel. It just
gives up. Lose a rotor, and you lose the entire system.

Performance Friction 460Z PGD 631 pads do not work. Oh, they stop the car
allright. Like dropping an anchor. But they only lasted three 20 minute
sessions. They work, but their life span is unacceptably short. Which
means, for our purposes, they don't work.

Stock rotors do not work. They get hot and warp.

THINGS THAT DO WORK

I installed a duct system to bring air up from simple 1 x 6 in. scoops
under the front valence directly to the calipers. I removed the dust plate
from the back of the rotor, fabricated a bracket to hold the ABS sensor
cable, and ran a length of round 2 in. industrial duct from the scoop to
the opening behind the caliper. I've had some minor problems anchoring the
duct at both ends, but it seems to work. By "work" I mean that it seems to
have kept the temperatures down somewhat. Without a sensor I can't say how
much. All I know is that the brakes no longer smoke, and I can work on them
as soon as we pit the car (after some cooldown laps). Last year, I could
not go near the brakes for at least 15 minutes.

IDEAS

1. Disconnect the ABS:  As noted above, it is dangerous if a failure
occurs. Besides, disconnecting the ABS may permit idea number two:

2. Install a brake proportioning valve, and move more braking power to the
rears. At present, the rears are more or less useless. With the ABS, they
contribute very little. I'm still running pads from last year back there,
and they show no signs of wear. I suggest we dial some rear brake into the
stopping equation. I suspect that the ABS will not permit a proportioning
valve, which is why we may have to disconnect it.

3. Install a water cooling system in the air ducts. A Trans-Am racer
suggested this to me. All we have to do, he said, was to install a
windshield wiper squirter in each air duct line, and connect them to the
brake switch. Whenever we hit the brakes, each would squirt cooling water
into the air duct. The water would vaporize in the air flow, and help cool
down the brakes. He wasn't too specific as to exactly where the squirters
should be-- up front at the air intake, in the middle of the duct, or very
near the calipers. Ideas, anyone?

Rich/old poop/94 VR4



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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:54:04 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Adventures in braking-1999

The Brembo/Porsche solution isn't really that expensive in the grand scheme
of things.  In fact, it is likely the most economical and biggest bang for
the buck out there.  When I refer to Brembo/Porsche, I am referring
specifically to a setup similar to what Brad Bedell put together, not the
one that Stillen remarkets.  Brad's are full 320mm rotors, the same used on
production Porsche race cars, and the OE Porsche rotors are Porsche modified
Brembos.

I am not sure what expectations the roadracers have with the brakes, but
when I raced bikes, pads were toast after a weekend of hard racing.  This is
with the best hardware money can buy.  Clearly bikes and cars have different
braking requirements and abuse the brakes in different ways but I am sure
you see what I am getting at.

I imagine your goals are the same, so I apologize in advance if I am being
redundant.  I'd like to suggest that expectations be established ahead of
time since that will determine specifications.  Baer, for instance, can put
together the ultimate in braking systems as I am sure could many others, AP
Lockheed goodies from KVR coming to mind.  Now you are talking at least
$3-5K US for rotors, calipers, hangers, plumbing and probably master
cylinder.  Also, to go beyond 13" wheel fitment becomes an issue thus upping
the cost potentially by quite a bit.

I'd love to see an effective and affordable braking package for our cars
too.  I just think there are practical limitations which may come to odds
with expectations.  I also think that the near ideal setup is already
available, but I guess it would have to be tested under the conditions you
encounter.  I know putting together a test setup for $1000 isn't exactly
pocket change, but maybe something like this would be achievable with some
pulls and tugs here and there?



Barry

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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:06:48 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Adventures in braking-1999

>
>I am not sure what expectations the roadracers have with the brakes, but
>when I raced bikes, pads were toast after a weekend of hard racing. 

I'd be deleriously happy if the pads lasted an entire weekend.

> I'd like to suggest that expectations be established ahead of
>time since that will determine specifications.
>I'd love to see an effective and affordable braking package for our cars
>too.  I just think there are practical limitations which may come to odds
>with expectations.  I also think that the near ideal setup is already
>available, but I guess it would have to be tested under the conditions you
>encounter.  I know putting together a test setup for $1000 isn't exactly
>pocket change, but maybe something like this would be achievable with some
>pulls and tugs here and there?
>
For me, $1000 is tops for rotors, calipers and a set of pads.
I'd be much happier with stock calipers, good rotors, and a set of pads
that would last a weekend for less than $500.
But that's just me.

Rich/old poop


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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:40:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Kuo <amkreadgto@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Adventures in braking-1999

- --- Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net> wrote:

> I'd be deleriously happy if the pads lasted an
> entire weekend.

The severity of wear of the pads could due to the quality of the
cross-drilling on the rotors.  I don't know the technical terms or how
many types of cross-drilling there are out there.. just from my own
experience.. my 1st set of X-drills were from the place called Dynamic
Turbo.. they claim it was Brembo rotors.. when they arrived to my door
steps.. they were clearly x-drilled stocks.. those rotors shave my pads
like hot butter.. the x-drillings were always filled with pad compounds
after a few hotlaps.. that also caused premature over heating.. i
always had to poke them through in the pits.. haha =)

On the other hand.. Brembo/Stillen and Porterfield X-drillings didn't
eat up the pads like that..

George

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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:24:43 -0500
From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Track report

My kit is working well...

I use the KVR rotors, however a customer of mine just split a rotor at the
hub.

This may be a weak point in the 94+ rotors.  I have had no problems with my
rotors.  I do thrash on them.

DO I understand this correct? The Powerslots rotor hub actually separated
from the swept area?  If so, consider the KVR rotors to have the same
problem.

Maybe a new rotor design would be in order here. (that is what I am looking
in to)  I have a couple different ideas, including a thicker rotor.

Anyhow, yes 1500.00 is about what I can do the Porsche caliper kit for.
Including SS brake lines, pagid orange pads, rotors, brackets and related
hardware.  Please direct any specific questions about the kit to me
personally.

Thanks,

> Brad
Check out my home page:   http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
> E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com ICQ#  3612682

> Try the KVR
> >or Porterfield rotors next and give us a report.  Maybe you'll also want
> >to talk to Brad Bedall about his brake kit that replaces the stock
> >calipers with OE Porsche (Brembo) and the stock rotors with KVR.
>
> I think we just heard in a previous post that Brembos crack.
> As I understand it, the Brembos remain in one piece, and just crack at the
> drilled holes. If they are breaking apart like mine do, that's dangerous.

Whoops, I think you misunderstood me.  In Brad's kit, which by the way
is about $1500 last time I checked, only the calipers are OE
Porsche/Brembo.  The rotors are KVR.  As far as I know, no one on any of
our lists has broken a rotor by KVR or Porterfield.

Maybe Brad can join this discussion and add his experience.

- --
How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost!

Ken Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510
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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:06:18 -0700
From: "james berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Team3S: basic brake upgrade

Anybody know what the NASCAR boys run ???  Last Sunday was
Martinsville [ I think ] ----- anyway -- MUCH braking, glowing red rotors
twice per lap for 500 laps. In addition they weigh 3500 lbs and develop
650+ HP. I don't think there were many cracked rotors.

             Jim Berry

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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:45:56 +0200
From: Roger Gerl <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: basic brake upgrade

Carbonite / Kevlar / Titanium ... Damn expensive mixture :)

> Anybody know what the NASCAR boys run ???  Last Sunday was

Roger
93'3000GT TT
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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:18:08 +0200
From: Roger Gerl <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Boost ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

> Well it looks like I'm thinking of doing a " Second Wave " of mods on my VR4
> ( This is the same guy that said " Its going to stay Stock " - Yeah Right )

Hehe, welcome to the club :)

> 1.    HKS Super Sequential Blow Off Valve

Choose a better one, this one is still made of plastic under the aluminum body.
But performance wise, the BOV is not needed.

> 2.    HKS Fuel Pump

Or a Walbro on a much cheaper price. If you don't go for bigger than 560cc
injectors then the pump is good enough.

> 3.    AFC ( or similar mod :o)

Ok, but what should it do for you ?

> . . . the question I want to ask is , can I up to boost to 16 - 17 lbs with
> the aid of the expected fuel mods .

No, you need to be able to deliver more fuel but after 15psi the injectors are
close to maxed out. To prevent detonation on higher boost you must use the gas
to cool down the chamber. Your stock injectors will max out and the ECU will
activate the fuel cut when trying to increase fuel with the AFC. There is no way
around bigger injectors !

> ( If not 17, then at least 16 ? )
> Please keep in mind that I will still have the stock injectors and turbos ( So is this
> all just a pipe dream :o)

Just leave the turbos out of the discussion as with the appropriate fuel mods
aou'll be able to run 18psi.

> ALSO : Since my car is a 1996 VR4, will it set off the OBDII software in my computer (
> e.g. the AFC ) ?

No, null problemo :)

My advice : Get an AFC (ask Matt Meyer, Acc.Acc. directly), or look at the DSM
parts trader. I've seen them used between $200 - $250. But it is of no use
without bigger injectors. Get a good set of 560cc of any brand and finally get
the Walbro 290 l/hr pump. These three parts together will cost you about $1100.
The BOV is not needed to achieve the desired boost but use a good wideband
O2-sensor together with a A/F meter to be able to tune in the AFC.

BTW, don't forget to regap the plugs.

Hope this helps,
Roger
93'3000GT TT

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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:28:22 +0200
From: Roger Gerl <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Team3S: Wide band O2 sensor ?

Unfortunately, the stock O2 sensors act somewhat digital, rich or lean and they
do not have a large "hysteresis" area.

To tune in our cars properly it would be interesting to know how much rich or
how much lean the setting is. Fore this a good O2 wideband sensor together with
an A/F meter would be very helpful.

I know Autometer is offering one as well as Bosch but does anyone know if these
are widebands and what the sensors usually cost ?

BTW, the ECU should not have any problem with them.

Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT
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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:58:52 +0200
From: Roger Gerl <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Adventures in braking -- Old poop inputs

> WHAT I DO
> I run Porsche Club driver's schools/open track events. Done three so far.

Ho much times a year ?

> THINGS THAT DO NOT WORK
> PowerSlot slotted rotors do not work.

I agree !

> ABS does not work:  Our ABS cannot deal with the loss of one wheel. It just
> gives up. Lose a rotor, and you lose the entire system.

Sounds really strange ! I'm sure there is an ABS fuse :)

> Performance Friction 460Z PGD 631 pads do not work. Oh, they stop the car
> allright. Like dropping an anchor. But they only lasted three 20 minute

Not really the cause ! Remember, the PowerSlots are slotted and this will cause
about 20% more pad wear. The setup must be properly combined together. But I
always used a set per day until I got the Pagids. They looked almost the same
after the last day :)

> Stock rotors do not work. They get hot and warp.

Very true. My horror story is the accident I had on the german Autobahn. It was
a hot summer afternoon and I drove aroun 150+ mph and had to brake down several
time. As the accident happend I felt a huge fading. With the brakes I do have
now I'd been able to get behind the truck and not beside of it.

> THINGS THAT DO WORK
>
> I installed a duct system to bring air up from simple 1 x 6 in. scoops

Every little helps !

> as soon as we pit the car (after some cooldown laps). Last year, I could
> not go near the brakes for at least 15 minutes.

But you boiled the brake fluid ... still too much heat there. Also removing the
shield my be the cause for heating up everything else there.

 
> IDEAS
>
> 1. Disconnect the ABS:  As noted above, it is dangerous if a failure
> occurs. Besides, disconnecting the ABS may permit idea number two:

Not sure 100% about this as it sounds really strange to me. Something was wrong
IMO. Anyway, look into the manual and search the ABS fuse.

> 2. Install a brake proportioning valve, and move more braking power to the
> rears. At present, the rears are more or less useless.

Your problem number two. My rear ones are also pretty hot after a day and I can
see some pad wear. Since I installed the Bremsas to the rear too, I'm very happy
how straight the Animal brakes under heavy conditions. I'm not sure about the 94
but what kind of calipers do you have in the rear. The first gen had the
one-piston caliper while the newer and EU cars got the stronger 2-piston types.

> I suspect that the ABS will not permit a proportioning
> valve, which is why we may have to disconnect it.

No, a proportioning valve should nothing do to the ABS. But with the proper
brake system I do not see a need for this.

> 3. Install a water cooling system in the air ducts.
> The water would vaporize in the air flow, and help cool down the brakes.

I'd keep my hands off this crap. Do you really think that the water vaporizes ?
It doesn't vaporise on the windscreen and therefore not in this duct. Using a
heavy pump and the right nozzle will do this but the water will finally come to
the rotors as it will condense in the path. And this is not good to the metal.
Heat the things up like hell and spray water on it can warp them immediatly.
This is not the same like driving in rain as the humidity and ambient is
different. Have you seen any racing car that needs such stuff ?

For me it's clear that good rotors and pads are the things you need at first. As
you don't want to spend the needed amount of money you do not have a lot if any
option. You ask for a solution, there are many. But there is no stopping without
taking money out of your wallet !

Things to remember :

- - Crossdrilled rotors (drilled before finishing) tend to crack and eat up pads
- - Slotted rotors "shave" the pads (20% more wear)
- - Too big rotors and too much force can cause damage to the front suspension
- - Big turbos give you more power - better brakes help to stop this power
  Both are about the same price, no way out :(

One last idea : Why not buying wheels that shave air to the brakes like a
windmill ? This would solve a lot of your problems :) Also slot the upper part
of the fender to let air into them. This will also cool the tires a little.

Roger,
93'3000GT TT
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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:17:43 +0200
From: Roger Gerl <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Adventures in braking-1999

> For me, $1000 is tops for rotors, calipers and a set of pads.

I'm sorry to sound that negative but you'll never ever be able to get this stuff
for this price. Maybe you can organize a GP on a good setup and the price will
drop to this with enough contributors.

> I'd be much happier with stock calipers, good rotors, and a set of pads
> that would last a weekend for less than $500.

I'd say rotors for $1000 that should last about half a year when racing a lot,
pads for $200 a set per weekend (1/2 in the rear) and braided steel brake lines
for $280

Not too bad IMHO.

Roger,
93'3000GT TT
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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:33:21 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Adventures in braking -- Old poop inputs

At 10:58 AM 4/20/99 +0200, you wrote:
>> WHAT I DO
>> I run Porsche Club driver's schools/open track events. Done three so far.
>
>How much times a year ?

Twice last year, once so far this year. I'd run more if I had the money --
it costs $195 to enter, plus gas, hotel, meals, and brake pads. A weekend
event can cost $500, because we have to leave on Friday to get there. I'd
like to run about 4 events per year, hopefully at different tracks around
the Midwest -- at RoadAmerica, Mid-Ohio, St. Louis International and
Blackhawk Farms, for example.

>
>> Performance Friction 460Z PGD 631 pads do not work. Oh, they stop the car
>> allright. Like dropping an anchor. But they only lasted three 20 minute
sessions
>
>Not really the cause ! Remember, the PowerSlots are slotted and this will
cause
>about 20% more pad wear. The setup must be properly combined together. But I
>always used a set per day until I got the Pagids. They looked almost the same
>after the last day :)

Last year, the Performance Friction pads lasted the entire weekend and
more. I changed to a compound that is more race than street, and these 631
pads only lasted three sessions. Of course, I was going faster.
Are you saying the $200 Pagids will last an entire weekend and more? How
much more?
>
>
>But you boiled the brake fluid ... still too much heat there. Also
removing the
>shield my be the cause for heating up everything else there.

How can that be? Doesn't the shield trap the heat?
I can't get cooling air to the brakes with the shield in place because it
blocks all access.
And I'm convinced that my ducts help considerably, though obviously not
enough.>
>
>> 2. Install a brake proportioning valve, and move more braking power to the
>> rears. At present, the rears are more or less useless.
>
>I'm not sure about the 94
>but what kind of calipers do you have in the rear. The first gen had the
>one-piston caliper while the newer and EU cars got the stronger 2-piston
types.

I don't know if it's a one- or two-piston caliper, but it is definitely
smaller than the front calipers. Do you think it's possible to install a
set of big front calipers on the rear?
>
>
>> 3. Install a water cooling system in the air ducts.
>> The water would vaporize in the air flow, and help cool down the brakes.
>
>Heat the things up like hell and spray water on it can warp them immediatly.
>This is not the same like driving in rain as the humidity and ambient is
>different. Have you seen any racing car that needs such stuff ?

A TransAm crew member suggested it. I agree that injecting water directly
onto the rotor is a bad idea. But perhaps by injecting water at the front,
the rapidly rushing air through the duct would create an aerosol mist
(rather than a deluge), so it wouldn't be like throwing cold water on a hot
disk. More like throwing cold, moist air. It probably would work better at
high speeds than it would in slow corners, because air flow would be much
greater at speed.  Maybe it's suitable only on long straights. I dunno.
That's why I posed the question.

>For me it's clear that good rotors and pads are the things you need at
first. As
>you don't want to spend the needed amount of money you do not have a lot
if any
>option. You ask for a solution, there are many. But there is no stopping
without
>taking money out of your wallet !

I don't want to spend $2700, that's for sure.
I also hate to spend lots of money and get no results. We've heard horror
stories right here on the list of guys spending $2000 and having rotors
crack. Brad's $1500 Porsche system is sounding better all the time, but
even his KVR rotors break.  George Kuo's Porterfield rotors are looking
good at this point, because they are stock rotors that have been heat
treated and then drilled.  Maybe a cost-effective combination would be
Brad's Porsche kit with Porterfield rotors.

I think this discussion is actually getting somewhere.

This is a great list.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4
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