--

From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com (Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S Digest V1 #130
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
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Precedence: bulk


Team3S Digest          Sunday, March 21 1999          Volume 01 : Number 130




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 16:59:48 -0600
From: "Paul T. Golley" <ptgolley@ro.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Dropping the pipes

>As long as the sensor is hot enough, and I don't see why it wouldn't be
just
>as hot with or without the pre-cats, it will read no differently than if
all
>were stock.  Can't think of any reason why it won't work as before.

Barry-

If the cats are there (and working), wouldn't they create
a lot of heat that the oxygen sensors might need to
work properly?  Also, if they detect the amountof oxygen
in the exaust, won't this be really screwed up by the different amount of
oxygen in the exhaust that results
from not having the catyalist there to do it's thing?
Regards, ptg

>> >Question: Will gutting and removing the cats do anything nasty? I know I
>> might get flames out the back, but are there any other problems to worry
>> about.

In particular, I wonder what the oxygen sensors will
read and what the ECU will do with the information.
Regards, ptg

>> Rich/old poop/plural champion/94 VR4
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 18:04:24 -0500
From: Ron Thompson <rtetetet@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brakes

It sounds like a sensor problem. If only during sharp turns the
sensors think one wheel is out of speed phase with the rest and
engages the ABS pump. It sounds like it's over modulating though. I
had similar occurrences in my 93SL before the pump started going
south, but my ABS light came on after. I would change the fluid, as
completely as possible, and check the sensors to make sure they are
not out of alignment. The dealer should be able to do this quick and
cheap. (sensor part) You might also see if they have seen instances of
this before.

Ron
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 18:10:08 -0500
From: Ron Thompson <rtetetet@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: affect of alignment on stability

Sounds like your losing a wheel bearing. This will do two things. Wear
your outer pad, and affect the camber or tracking. I would have the
alignment done and pay attention to the toe in on the rear, this will
give you the over steer you talk about. Is it doing this more one way
than the other?

Also, what tire pressure are you running?

Ron
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 15:49:53 -0800
From: "Bill" <compren@lightspeed.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: affect of alignment on stability

Question along the same vein...

I'm running the 32/28 that the car recommends but car seems loose in
turns...

Last night in warm weather on try street I slid the car for about three car
lengths right and then left on a fast on ramp...

- -Bill
Subject: Re: Team3S: affect of alignment on stability


> Sounds like your losing a wheel bearing. This will do two things. Wear

>
> Also, what tire pressure are you running?
>




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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 18:02:56 -0600
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: affect of alignment on stability

At 03:49 PM 3/20/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Question along the same vein...
>
>I'm running the 32/28 that the car recommends but car seems loose in
>turns...

When I ran my 94 VR4 at an autocross using stock pressures, it rolled the
front tires under and scuffed 'em something fierce. I have since gone to 44
front/38 rear for any kind of competition.
Check your tires for evidence of sidewall scuffing. If so, you're not
running enough pressure for the way you drive.
>
Rich/old poop>
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 19:09:17 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Dropping the pipes

> -----Original Message-----
> >As long as the sensor is hot enough, and I don't see why it wouldn't be
> just
> >as hot with or without the pre-cats, it will read no differently than if
> all
> >were stock.  Can't think of any reason why it won't work as before.
>
> Barry-
>
> If the cats are there (and working), wouldn't they create
> a lot of heat that the oxygen sensors might need to
> work properly?

I don't think so.  The oxygen sensors in most cars need to be above 600 F to
operate properly.  That'll happen with or without the catalytic converter in
place.  If not, then all those people out there that gutted their pre-cats
would be having a lot more grief I would think.

> Also, if they detect the amountof oxygen
> in the exaust, won't this be really screwed up by the different amount of
> oxygen in the exhaust that results
> from not having the catyalist there to do it's thing?

No, or at least if this is true then noone else seems to be talking about it
on other auto related techie lists ;)

The catalyst in the converter (usually some exotic alloy -- I was told it
was titanium but I don't know for sure) really doesn't affect the oxygen
content as seen by the sensor before the converter, so gutting or replacing
the pre-cats should not affect the operation of the O2 sensor in any way.
You just want to be sure that all the O2 sensors are in place and operating
and all should be well.

> Regards, ptg


Barry

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:11:09 -0600
From: Trevor James <trevorlj@feist.com>
Subject: Team3S: O2 sensor simulators

I'm not sure if this is useful but a place called Casper electronics (847-247-0484)
makes O2 sensor simulators that spit out the right resistance for the second set of O2's
to not set a code on OBDII vehicles. Do the 94+ TT's have post cat O2 sensors? I first
heard about these on OBDII Firebirds/Camaros that have post cat O2 sensors. If you
removed the cats the ECU would see the same values for both the pre and post cat O2
sensors and set a code.

Trevor
96 R/T TT (FIPK 13.52@101)
91 R/T TT 14.03@98 Stock

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:00:11 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: O2 sensor simulators

Nifty trick.

California cars had the additional O2 sensors but I do not know which year
they emerged, it may have been as early as '93 though.  49 state cars did
not have them in 93 or 94 for sure.  My '94 VR4 is a 49 state car and only
has the two sensors, not the redundant downstream ones.  I am not sure if or
when they showed up for ODBII but I would guess they would have been
implemented by 1996 since that was the year by which manufacturers had to be
ODBII compliant.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
>
> I'm not sure if this is useful but a place called Casper
> electronics (847-247-0484)
> makes O2 sensor simulators that spit out the right resistance for
> the second set of O2's
> to not set a code on OBDII vehicles. Do the 94+ TT's have post
> cat O2 sensors? I first
> heard about these on OBDII Firebirds/Camaros that have post cat
> O2 sensors. If you
> removed the cats the ECU would see the same values for both the
> pre and post cat O2
> sensors and set a code.
>
> Trevor
> 96 R/T TT (FIPK 13.52@101)
> 91 R/T TT 14.03@98 Stock

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:01:10 -0500
From: William Lynn Larsen <wlarsen@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Dropping the pipes

Barry,

I believe it is platinum, although it doesn't change your point.

Regards,
Lynn

Barry E. King wrote:
> The catalyst in the converter (usually some exotic alloy -- I was told
> it was titanium but I don't know for sure)
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 20:37:36 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Dropping the pipes

That was it!  Platinum.  I knew it had a num in it.

Thanks for the info.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
>
> Barry,
>
> I believe it is platinum, although it doesn't change your point.
>
> Regards,
> Lynn
>
> Barry E. King wrote:
> > The catalyst in the converter (usually some exotic alloy -- I was told
> > it was titanium but I don't know for sure)

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 21:48:33 -0600
From: Trevor James <trevorlj@feist.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: O2 sensor simulators

I was reading a sticker under the 96's hood today that said that it was emissions
compliant in all 50 states. I know it was purchased here in KS though...hmmmm?

Trevor

"Barry E. King" wrote:

> Nifty trick.
>
> California cars had the additional O2 sensors but I do not know which year
> they emerged, it may have been as early as '93 though.  49 state cars did
> not have them in 93 or 94 for sure.  My '94 VR4 is a 49 state car and only
> has the two sensors, not the redundant downstream ones.  I am not sure if or
> when they showed up for ODBII but I would guess they would have been
> implemented by 1996 since that was the year by which manufacturers had to be
> ODBII compliant.
>
> Barry

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 22:01:45 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: O2 sensor simulators

1996 was the year ODBII became official which means no more 49 state +
California cars.  All have the same emissions standards.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
>
> I was reading a sticker under the 96's hood today that said that
> it was emissions
> compliant in all 50 states. I know it was purchased here in KS
> though...hmmmm?
>
> Trevor

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:20:10 -0800
From: Joe Gonsowski <twinturbo@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: O2 sensor simulators

FYI  on the "redundant" downstream (or second) O2 sensor

OBDII uses the downstream O2 sensor to measure the efficiency of the catalyst.  The ECU
determines catalyst efficiency by tracking sensor switches.  A switch occurs when the O2
output voltage changes due to a fuel rich to lean condition (as determined by amount of
oxygen present in the exhaust).   It is typical for our closed loop system to switch
quite frequently (more than once every second) as the ECU attempts to reach a stoich air
fuel mixture.

If the catalyst is doing its job, the downstream O2 sensor will rarely switch as the
exhaust coming out of the catalyst will not vary much in oxygen content (cat collects
oxygen when available and then releases it when needed to minimize emissions).

The OBDII system tracks the ratio of  upstream vs downstream counts (switches) to
determine catalyst efficiency.  When the ratio approaches one, the catalyst is
determined defective triggering your dash light to illuminate.

Joe Gonsowski
'92 TT Stealth



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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:08:42 +0100
From: Matthews <matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
Subject: Re: Team3S: poor handling, uneven brake pad wear

Ron Thompson wrote:
>
> Sounds like you['re] losing a wheel bearing. This will do two things. Wear
> your outer pad, and affect the camber or tracking. I would have the
> alignment done and pay attention to the toe in on the rear, this will
> give you the over steer you talk about. Is it doing this more one way
> than the other?

At times I think it may be worse in left turns, but if there is a
difference it's subtle.  Can I check all four bearings by simply jacking
up the wheels and checking for play, or is there more to it?


Merritt wrote:
>
> Sounds like low tire pressure in the rears. I run 44 in front and 38 in the
> rear in my Michelins
> when on track. It corners neutral, even when entering a turn at 125. It may
> be that as your tires are aging, they require different tire pressures. Try
> the old autocross technique of chalking your sidewalls to see if they are
> rolling under.

I'm just the recommended pressures front and rear.  I will try the chalk
idea and check for scuffing.  Then I will try higher pressures and see
if it makes a difference.  But isn't that going to cause excessive wear
in the center of the tread?  What pressures do you run on a daily basis?


I'm hoping it isn't pressure or a bearing, rather just an alignment
problem.  Barry King's post about having an alignment that allows him to
take 90 degree turns at 60 mph seems to imply that this can make a big
difference!  Of course better tires and suspension would also help...
:-)


> >Also, this may or may not be related, but my outer-right brake pad is
> >wearing down more quickly than the others.  The calipers move smoothly
> >and do not appear to be sticking.
>
> Try bleeding the brakes. I had the same problem (same pad, too), and it
> turned out to be air in the caliper.

This is likely the problem, since it apparently started happening after
installation the stainless steel brake lines last fall.  That corner may
not
have been bled properly (it was the first one done).  Thanx for the
info!!

- --
Jim Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews

*** 3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 72% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Blitz Blow-Off Valve
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, Top Speed: 168mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
1 Feb 99 Dyno Session: 406 SAE HP, 354 lb-ft torque

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 08:51:55 -0500
From: William Lynn Larsen <wlarsen@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: poor handling, uneven brake pad wear

Jim,

1. You bet it will make the centers wear faster. I absolutely ruined a
good set of Toyos exactly like this.

2. I would rather have the bearing go out as they are much easier and
cheaper to fix than the alignment.  I also have an inherent distrust of
alignment places; I would find frame shop with a REALLY good reputation
for alignments.

Regards,
Lynn

Matthews wrote:
1.
> Then I will try higher pressures and see if it makes a difference.
> But isn't that going to cause excessive wear in the center of the
> tread?  What pressures do you run on a daily basis?
>
2.
> I'm hoping it isn't pressure or a bearing, rather just an alignment
> problem.  Barry King's post about having an alignment that allows him
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 16:11:46 -0500
From: Del A Kolasinski <pearlvr42c@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Question on what clutch to install? -Reply -Reply

Well the reason I say to stay away from them is because of plenty of
ruined ones in the cars of around 7or 8 of my friends.  All all wheel
drive cars and two of them being 3000's or Stealths.  The C.F.D.F. clutch
just cannot take the abuse of higher RPM launches.  Their pressure plate
is essentially stock and the disk is also pretty darn close to stock.
Just different friction materials.  This clutch is good for FWD mildly
modded cars, but not AWD.  Seven of my friends currently are running
A.C.T. clutches in their AWD cars.  They now swear by them.  They
previously used clutches from Centerforce, RPS, O.S. Geiken,
Clutchmasters, and Exedy.
Del
PEARLVR42C@juno.com
wisc.dsm.org

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 11:15:34 -0600
From: xwing <xwing@execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: affect of alignment on stability

Matthews wrote: [snips]
> problem:  car tracks straight; in corners oversteers excessively, esp. on
> lift off throttle, I countersteer to avoid spinout. 
> now thing shift more toward oversteer; feels less stable in long
> sweeping high speed bends esp; I get floating, sliding sensation.
> Tried rotating tires, made sure warm before
> testing.  I don't recall hitting anything to knock out alignment; tire wear is even
> Pilots 25k miles.   Suggestions?
> outer-right brake pad wearing down more quickly than other.  calipers move smoothly,
> do not appear to be sticking.
> Jim

First step should be a four wheel alignment, go to good shop or Mits
dealer with computer readout, get to stock specs.  Usually I'd say go a
little more neg camber up front, but if oversteer is problem that would
make it worse.
Have dealer check suspension and bushings.
Have dealer check the "all wheel steering" system for proper function,
there is technique to doing this.  If that was doing its 1.5 degree
adjustment at inappropriate times or was loose, that could make such
symptoms.
I doubt brakes are problem in THIS complaint, as if dragging would be a
constant behavior, not waggly, and if turns smoothly not first on my
list of suspects...
  I will be very interested in your results, I have noted this exact
behavior on another car.  Let us know!
Jack Tertadian
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 14:33:36 -0500
From: William Lynn Larsen <wlarsen@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Stealth-3000GT Hood Insulation

You guys have been talking about getting the heat out of the engine
compartment and how expensive the Bozz extraction scoops are.  Well, I
just saw another approach thanks to Del Kolasinski's contribution on
brakes.  I went to check out wisc.dsm.org and on this page
http://www.destyne.com/wiscdsm/members/aaron_eckhart.html saw another
approach.  The owner has put some slits in the shock tower blisters that
look kind of like shark gills.  It looks pretty good in the picture.
Guys name is Aaron Eckhart. Aaron, you out there?? wonder if it helps.
Del do you know anything about Aaron's mod?

Regards,
Lynn

Omar Malik wrote:
>
> if ever should it rain, the rain will most likely boil off the hood if
> you've been running long and hard and let the car sit for a while. i
> don't
> think you want that :)
>
> Omar
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Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:36:51 -0500
From: RPM Motorsports <rpmmotorsport@adelphia.net>
Subject: Team3S: Hood Vents

I've seen a lot of people posting information regarding hood scoops and
airflow. And it brought up something which one of my friends with an
researching a hood for his MX-6 was looking into. Forward facing hood
scoops would produce airflow into the engine bay, but would't it effect
laminar flow over the hood if it was aerdynamically shaped? Another
thing would be, what are you attempting to achieve. By placing a forward
facing hood scoop, you would be drawing air into the engine bay, but
wouldn't this air slam right into airflow which is being drawn into the
engine bay by the open fascia of the front end? I recently looked at an
article in a Japanese OPTION magazine where they discuss designs on hood
vents and such. They basically talk about how the rear open vents are
used to draw air out which would accelerate airflow through the car.
Basically it would also depend on how your fans are designed, whether or
not they are PUSH or PULL types of fans. Wouldn't having rear facing
vents create a vaccum within the engine bay and effectively pull air
out, thereby drawing in more air within the front?

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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 17:23:37 -0500
From: Ron Thompson <rtetetet@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: poor handling, uneven brake pad wear

> At times I think it may be worse in left turns, but if there is a
> difference it's subtle.  Can I check all four bearings by simply jacking
> up the wheels and checking for play, or is there more to it?

You will also need to spin the tire some, but you will need to have
all four wheels off the ground so as not to screw up the viscous
couplings. Check for grinding or drag on the bearing.

Jack brought out important points on the alignment. Find someone
really good. My suspension mechanic uses a 4 wheel 'Hunter' alignment
rack. He does all four wheels at he same time. Each change reads out
on a screen at the front and a remote display he keeps with him. The
most important adjustments for you are the rear toe in and camber. I
wouldn't go negative camber unless you have a ton of money to throw at
tires. My 96 was in negative camber when I bought it and it had
noticeable outer tire wear at 2200 miles. Also get the AWS checked. If
it isn't doing it's 1.5 degree turn correct it will play havoc with
over steer. The bushings are also a possibility. Yes I'm repeating
what Jack said, it is all good information.

I wouldn't think going higher on tire pressure would be good for
street use. 44 psi sounds good for track but I wouldn't want to eat
the centers of my tires up on the street. You can safely go up some,
1-3 PSI, from stock depending on what you're driving style is.
Remember these are cold pressure measurements, not hot after you've
been driving on them, and try several gauges as I have seen a wide
variance in readings. If you are under pressure you will get side wall
roll, and you could find yourself dismounting a tire unexpectedly.
This will give you some real serious over steer.

I always check my cars stability by weaving it at about 30, 40, & 50
MPH to check that it hasn't developed any bad habits that have gone
un-noticed. I look for body roll, how the weight and direction
transfers, and very short quick flicks of the wheel to make sure the
nose points the new direction, not just rocks the suspension. What
would most concern me in your case, is the rear tracking in sync with
the rest of the car or is it sort of delayed? Your should be able to
feel the difference at 40 MPH when the rear steering kicks in and it
should feel as though it's tracking better. If it still feels like
it's lagging or delayed in follow through, you are out of adjustment.
It would most likely be tracking or toe in, if there are no worn or
broken parts. (steering, bushings) You should be able to check the
bushing condition visually. Look for evidence of play, you may not be
able physically to make them move but you should be able to see if
they have flexed excessively in their mountings or if they show
cracking. Also check the stabilizer bars and bushings. You could also
be losing your rear shocks effectiveness. If they are wearing out you
are losing traction.

Ron
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Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 18:38:42 -0500
From: Jason and Cristy Barnhart <phnxgld@erols.com>
Subject: Team3S: AVC-R installation...

Hi all,
  I'm looking for a hand in installing my new Apexi AVC-R boost controller.  I've looked
at the walk through for the Blitz DSBC, but unfortunately the two are not similar enough
for me to make up for my lack of knowledge in this area.  Basically, I'm just wondering
what hoses I need to tap into.  Naturally, the illustrations look far different then
under my hood.  It looked like the DSBC was pretty simple, just tap into the hose going
into the y-pipe.  Well, going by the AVC-R illustrations it's kinda difficult for me to
make a determination as to what and where these hoses are on my car.  It also looks like
I need to remove and not use the stock BOV altogether, is this correct?  I've got the
pages from the manual scanned in, and published on my page, would anyone mind taking a
look?  Consequently, the bulk of the instructions are in the first scan, feel free to
read through them.  It looks like it won't take long at all, once I just figure out what
to tap into.

The link is www.erols.com/danebar/avcr.htm

thanks in advance,
Jason

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End of Team3S Digest V1 #130
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