--
From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
(Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Team3S Digest V1 #128
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Errors-To:
owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Precedence:
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Team3S
Digest Friday, March 19
1999 Volume 01 : Number
128
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:23:15 -0700
From: "Michael O'Krancy" <mokrancy@renaissance.ca>
Subject:
Team3S: stumbling stealth
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Gentlemen,
How are things? I read Michael
Reiss' post to the list about having the
hesitation problem under load as
well as the associated motor mount
replacement solution. I seem to have
the same problem however I would like
to describe the problem to you and ask
that confirm if it sounds similar to
yours (Michael), as well as solicit any
comments from the group.
First off, when I rev the engine in neutral, it
absolutely roars without
hesitation. It's a thing of beauty
really. This leads me to believe that
the problem lies not in the
engine but somewhere else down the power train
line. Anyway as I
accelerate hard, the car stumbles and buckles. Worst.
The clunking
sound you described is something I am also hearing and
associated with this
is usually a series of almost "pulsing" hesitations.
Now as speed increases,
the problem seems to fade. It is almost as if under
a certain RPM and
speed the car finds a resonant frequency that results in
this loss of
power.
Worth mentioning Mike is that I am not experiencing the
shifter play that
you described. I would really like to experience
smooth aggressive
acceleration but as it stands, I am at a loss for what to
do.
regards
Mike O'Krancy
91STT, bone
stock.
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------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:43:14 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re:
Team3S: stumbling stealth
Hi Michael;
Gapping and or replacing
your plugs to .034 will likely take care of most of the
problem. New plug
wires are always helpful, as with age they begin to break down
a bit.
However, those provided with our cars are generally excellent for
stock
conditions.When did you last change your fuel and air
filters??
A stumble under load/acceleration will in 99/100 cases not show
if you sit and
rev the engine in neutral. If it does miss you need a tune up
9or more) bad.
Regap or replace the plugs if old at .034 and
check/replace your filters and
you will likely have the problem solved.
Also, insure you are using high octane
or you'll get stumbling for sure. This
sort of stumble cases a brief clunking in
the drive components as the
hesitation is picked up by them in both directions.
Once resolved, the clunk
you describe will be gone.
Best
Darc
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:18:14 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <middaugh@omega.gat.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: stumbling stealth
You could be overboosting at lower RPM and
hitting fuel cut. Then as
RPM rise and your stock turbo's boost falls
off, your stumbling stops.
Check your boost control solenoid valve.
It is on the center of the
firewall, and is the right-most (closest to
driver) solenoid. Make sure
the hoses are OK and the electrical
connector didn't come off.
Good luck,
Ken
- --
Two wrongs
don't make a right, but three lefts do!
Ken Middaugh
General
Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
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------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:20:40 -0800
From: Roger Gerl <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: stumbling stealth
> You could be overboosting at lower RPM and
hitting fuel cut.
This doesn't sound like fuel cut as he never lost his
teeths in the steering
wheel. But it comes close as the timing can be
retarded.
To check out the proper operation of the stuff either hook up a
check device to
read the code or follow the procedure described in the manual
to check it out by
"hand".
Before you go to a dealer do this
:
- - check MAS wires properly hooked up and everything mentioned
before
- - use a fuel injection cleaner to make sure the valves are closing
properly
and the injectors can spray the juice.
- - check (at
least) the front plugs for their color. Regap as adviced by Darc.
- - check
the plug wires (at least the front ones)
As you are having some miles on
the car I suppose the 60k was made long time
before. Do you know if the
pulley has been replaced. It just sounds like the
timing is off it's way and
if there is a weak part the belt can slip causing a
wrong
timing.
Sorry, there are many of possibilities.
Hope it
helps,
Roger
93'3000GT TT
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------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:32:06 -0500
From: William Lynn Larsen <wlarsen@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Stock Boost Gauge : THAT innacurrate ??
If the ECU is doing this
calculation and it is that far off what does
that say about how the ECU is
controling the injector duration (mostly)
and timing. Is the inaccuracy
dealth with elsewhere in the code??
Regards,
Lynn
Barry E. King
wrote:
>
> The stock boost gauge is pretty much useless as a
measurement of
> boost. On my '94 the needle is pretty much pegged
at anything over
> 10 psi as measured with an SPI gauge.
>
>
Correcting the stock boost gauge is not feasible since the calculation
>
is performed by the code in the ECU. Besides that, it would always be
> an approximation, not a true measurement.
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:31:01 -0500
From: "Micheal A. Whelan" <mwhelan@pdtech.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Service Manual Source
I purchased my manual directly from
Mopar. Phone is 800 890 4038 in the US
. The cost was $59.00 US
plus $6.00 for shipping. I also picked up the
owners manual for an
additional $10.00. The manuals (service) for engine,
chassis and body
and the second for electrical are ordered by year of
vehicle. You can
request the service publications order form (84-320-4737
(Rev. 8.98 00M)) to
order by mail. The order location is in Strongsville,
Ohio (USA) and is
open 8:00 to 4:30 Eastern Standard Time.. People were
great and
delivery was fast....Good Luck Mike Whelan Traverse
City,
Michigan.
>Where can I find the mechanics
manual.
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------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:46:01 -0500
From: Jason and Cristy Barnhart <phnxgld@erols.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: stumbling stealth
Hate to sound repetitive, but this
sounds suspiciously similar to the
'stumbles' I had until I replaced my plugs
and wires. My car runs better now
than it has in the 40k miles I've
owned it, it's now at 91k miles. Unless
they've already been checked,
they're probably the cause.
good luck,
Jason
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:17:41 EST
From: Dskull@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Camber
Plates
Has anyone installed Ground Control camber plates ????
Dave
93 VR4
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------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:49:04 -0600
From: "Paul T. Golley" <ptgolley@ro.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Stock Boost Gauge : THAT innacurrate ??
> The stock boost gauge is
pretty much useless as a
>measurement of boost.
Will I be
able to rely on my Super AVC-R boost
readings (once I get it
installed)?
Regards, ptg
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is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:54:22 -0800
From: Dan Jett <djett@corp.ultratech.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Volume vs Mass Air Flow...
** High Priority **
Here's one
I've been thinking about...What is the advantage of a Mass
Airflow Sensor
induction style versus a Volumetric system, as found
on RX-7's? I know when
installing the HKS VPC you remove the MAS, and
the signal "lies" to the ECU,
thereby creating a "speed density
system". Is there some advantage for
either system? It would seem to
me that a mass airflow sensor would give
truer measurements of the air
that actually enters the intake tract...Any
comment?
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:59:57 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Stock Boost Gauge : THAT innacurrate ??
Paul T. Golley
wrote:
>
>
> Will I be able to rely on my Super AVC-R
boost
> readings (once I get it installed)?
You sure will. You may
(or may not) want to instal a dial boost gauge as well, but the
SAVC-R reads
it as it should, and fine tunes the spikes out for you as
well.
Best
Darc
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:10:47 -0500
From: "Andy Carberry" <acarberry@snet.net>
Subject: Team3S:
Question on what clutch to install?
Well it looks like my car will be
returned to me by next week so the works
it about to begin. While doing
the change over I will want to install a new
clutch. I was wondering
which one should I install and where is a good
place to purchase it
from.
Many thanks,
Andy
93 VR4 soon to be 6
speed
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------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:22:10 -0800
From: Dan Jett <djett@corp.ultratech.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Question on what clutch to install? -Reply
** High Priority
**
I installed the Centerforce dual friction clutch, and so far I'm
very
happy with it (~5000miles). It grabs better than anyhting
I've
driven, and about the only complaint I have about it is the
chatter,
common with hi-po clutches....Actually, to be honest, I think
it
chatters less than stock though! I haven't dumped the clutch at
obscene
rpm's though, I'm reluctant to because I'm sure it wouldn't
be "nice" to my
still stock driveline. It cost me $1100 installed,
and that may be my only
other complaint....Expensive!!!
Good luck!
DJett
92 Pearl
Stealth TT, HKS dual power flow intake, centerforce clutch,
soon to be ported
intake manifold
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:02:16 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Stock Boost Gauge : THAT innacurrate ??
Calculating boost and determining
fuel requirements are two different
things. The maps in the ECU are
calibrated primarily with airflow (engine
load) against RPM (with other
corrections thrown in) so there is no need for
it to know actual boost.
Boost is usually only relevant for MAP
(speed/density) systems and even then
only to ultimately determine air
volume. The MAS already measures
airflow which does vary with boost
therefore no need for the ECU to know
boost.
As long as those maps are correct, and I am sure they are
conservatively
safe for a stock engine, then all is
well.
Barry
> -----Original Message-----
>
> If
the ECU is doing this calculation and it is that far off what does
> that
say about how the ECU is controling the injector duration (mostly)
> and
timing. Is the inaccuracy dealth with elsewhere in the
code??
>
> Regards,
> Lynn
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:02:18 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Volume vs Mass Air Flow...
The speed/density vs. MAS/MAF debate reaches
religous furor in some camps.
Speed/density relies primarily on absolute
manifold pressure (MAP) plotted
against RPM. Correcting with air
temperature (ideally manifold air
temperature) you can calculate the amount
of air with pretty reasonable
accuracy. The problem with MAP systems is
that in order to be very accurate
the ECU needs to know a lot about the
engine -- VE curve, camshaft progfile,
injector size, fuel pressure and so
on. This is all possible and works
great just so long as none of that
stuff ever changes. If it does then the
ECU must be
reprogrammed.
A mass airflow sensor actually measures the amount of air
entering the
engine. The latter is demonstrably more accurate and
usually more sensitive
but can be more expensive and prone to certain types
of failures depending
upon the type (hot wire, vortex style etc.). The
one exception to this is
the old flap style MAF which are notorisously
crappy. The vortex style as
used on the 3/S is extremely
accurate.
Usually, ECUs with properly implemented MAS systems will
tolerate all manor
of engine modifications with only the need to adjust for
the change in
airflow. This is why the TRE MASC is such a handy
device.
Like the VPC, tools like the AFC and MASC also trick the ECU into
seeing
different airflow values than what are actually measured by the
MAS.
Barry
> -----Original Message-----
>
> **
High Priority **
>
> Here's one I've been thinking about...What is
the advantage of a Mass
> Airflow Sensor induction style versus a
Volumetric system, as found
> on RX-7's? I know when installing the HKS
VPC you remove the MAS, and
> the signal "lies" to the ECU, thereby
creating a "speed density
> system". Is there some advantage for
either system? It would seem to
> me that a mass airflow sensor would give
truer measurements of the air
> that actually enters the intake
tract...Any comment?
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:07:21 -0600
From: Ken Taft <kentaft@cwix.com>
Subject: Team3S: Need
Cat-Back Air Filter & New rims &Tires
This is a multi-part
message in MIME format.
-
------=_NextPart_000_006D_01BE7172.8D055560
Content-Type:
text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable
1992 Dodge Stealth Rt Needs Your Imput only 17,000 org
Miles on Her!
Cat Back Systems- Recomendations Please
K&N or
Another brand - Recomendations Please
Home Depot Ram Air or
Not-Recomendations Please
I Want to use Redline Syn Oil in engine and in
manual transmission. I =
live in minnesota and have been told to use 10w30 in
engine but is 10w40 =
okay. Also was told to use 2 Quarts mtls and 1 Quart
mt90 in =
transmission.Also if i go with dual Exhaust my bumper has only
single =
cut out. Can i by another bumper skirt for it. Thanks Everyone for
your =
response. Ken
-
------=_NextPart_000_006D_01BE7172.8D055560
Content-Type:
text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3
HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META
content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1
=
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"'
name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY
bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>1992
Dodge Stealth Rt Needs Your =
Imput only=20
17,000 org Miles on
Her!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Cat Back Systems-
Recomendations=20
Please</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
color=3D#000000
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
color=3D#000000 size=3D2>K&N or Another brand -
=
Recomendations=20
Please</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
color=3D#000000
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Home Depot Ram Air or
=
Not-Recomendations=20
Please</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
color=3D#000000
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I Want to use Redline Syn Oil in =
engine and
in=20
manual transmission. I live in minnesota and have been told to use
10w30 =
in=20
engine but is 10w40 okay. Also was told to use 2 Quarts mtls
and 1 Quart =
mt90 in=20
transmission.Also if i go with dual Exhaust my
bumper has only single =
cut out.=20
Can i by another bumper skirt for it.
Thanks Everyone for your
=
response. =20
Ken</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:18:30 -0800
From: Roger Gerl <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Question on what clutch to install?
I heard nothing but good
about the RPS clutches. The Carbon Claw seems to be not
good for a daily
driver but the new Turbo Carbon offers a good pedal feeling
including great
hold on the high rpm dumps. I probably will be soon in the need
to get a new
clutch :) and I probably will go their way.
http://www.turboclutch.com/
Maybe
someone else has more input on them ?
Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT
TT
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------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:25:06 -0800
From: Roger Gerl <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Stock Boost Gauge : THAT innacurrate ??
> If the ECU is doing
this calculation and it is that far off what does
> that say about how the
ECU is controling the injector duration (mostly)
> and timing. Is
the inaccuracy dealth with elsewhere in the code??
Interestingly, on the
european 3000GT the boost meter (combo with water temp) is
really accurate
but very, very slow. Also it only goes up to 0.7 bars and guess
what where it
stays with 1.0 or more bars :)
Nobody really know how the ECU calculates
boost but it is not used to determine
the appropriate cell in the fuel-map
and the future ones that have to be taken.
The figures on the controllers do
their job but when having a Blitz the size of
the digits is pretty small and
as your job is watching the street (and traffic)
looking down the controller
is not so good. Therefore a boost gauge is good to
"read" the boost level
with a glimps as well as to determine a
possible
boost-waveing.
Regards,
Roger,
93'3000GT TT
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:12:44 -0500
From: Del A Kolasinski <pearlvr42c@juno.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Eliminating Fuel Cut
Okay, so I'm sick of flying through my front
window whenever my SPI boost
guage hits 18psi. Is there anyway to get
rid of this or is ECU
reprogramming the only way? I know that in my
Talon that I had last year
a guuted Mass Air Sensor and a few other free be
tricks eliminated this.
I know that is not a good idea on these cars but
does anyone have any
other
ideas?
Del
___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:09:21 -0500
From: Del A Kolasinski <pearlvr42c@juno.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Are syncros the same in both 5 and 6 speed tranny's?
I have an
appointment to get my 2nd gear and 2nd gear syncro replaced
over easter
weekend. One quick question, I have a '91 VR4 which is
obviously a 5
speed, and I'm not sure if the shop got the new parts from
a 5 or a 6
speed. Does anyone know if the gears and the syncros are
different
between the two, or are they the same?
Please someone have the right
answer!
Thanks everyone,
Del
PEARLVR42C@juno.com
wisc.dsm.org
___________________________________________________________________
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don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:26:50 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Question on what clutch to install?
I have one sitting here that will be
going into the car very soon. I'll
post for anyone interested once I
have some idea as to how it shakes out.
One issue though is that I do not
know how representative this clutch will
be compared to the Carbon Claw or
the newer Turbo Carbon clutch since mine
was supposedly a "one-off".
The only thing I know about its lineage is that
the material and disc was
based on development for a 700 HP Supra MkIV
dragster. RPS claimed that
it performed flawlessly in that car but who
knows... *shrug* RPS also
claims it is streetable. We'll see.
Barry
>
-----Original Message-----
>
> I heard nothing but good about the
RPS clutches. The Carbon Claw
> seems to be not
> good for a daily
driver but the new Turbo Carbon offers a good
> pedal feeling
>
including great hold on the high rpm dumps. I probably will be
> soon in
the need
> to get a new clutch :) and I probably will go their
way.
> http://www.turboclutch.com/
> Maybe
someone else has more input on them ?
>
> Regards,
>
Roger
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:03:47 -0500
From: Del A Kolasinski <pearlvr42c@juno.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Question on what clutch to install? -Reply
Through my clutch
experiences with All Wheel Drive cars, Talon, Eclipse,
3000GT, I would
personally stay away from Centerforce Dual Friction
clutches. I
STRONGLY suggest using A.C.T. clutches. They can take a
serious beating
and will still grab hard.I had one in my high 12 second
all wheel drive Talon
last summer and because of massive launches smoked
it a couple of
times. I'd let it sit overnight and the next day it would
grab just as
good if not better. My friend has a RPS Turbo Clutch in his
'93 VR-4
which he has to replace every 7 to 9 months. Not sure
about
Clutchmasters except for rumors of killin driveline parts and the
fact
that they cost a lot. I ordered my ACT 2740lb. pressure plate
(stock is
2300lbs.) and street disk yesterday for $450.00.
I'll give a
full report after I get my '91 VR-4 into a race shop on April
2nd for the
install and they are also going to be replacing my 2nd gear
syncro and 2nd
gear.
Hope this helps a little,
Del
PEARLVR42C@juno.com
wisc.dsm.org
___________________________________________________________________
You
don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:06:33 -0800
From: Dan Jett <djett@corp.ultratech.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Question on what clutch to install? -Reply -Reply
** High
Priority **
So, what's so bad about Centerforce clutches?
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:05:51 -0800
From: Roger Gerl <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Eliminating Fuel Cut
Del,
Please list your mods as I do
not have them in my small brain (too much comp
stuff, hehe).
>
Okay, so I'm sick of flying through my front window whenever my SPI
boost
> guage hits 18psi.
I'm sure you know why you're running into
fuel cut and that this hurts your
engine. Also for sure you're getting
retarded timing before the cut and your ECU
falls back to the low-octane gas
map that causes cut even earlier !
We have some cars that show timing
retard right after 14.2psi caused by the ECU
that senses knock, even witch a
still rich mixture !. You can prevent this by
giving the engine more fuel to
cool down the combustion chamber, e.g. with an
AFC. Fuel cut normally appears
around 1.25bars on cars without fuel mods but
using an AFC and increasing the
fuel amount causes earlier fuel cut. This
because the stock fuel system is at
it's end even at 1.05bars. The IDC on Jim's
car showed more than 90% on the
dyno around 1.0bars :) Our ECU then first closes
the wastegate-solenoid valve
thinking the wastegates will then open for sure.
When this doesn't cure the
situation, it retards the timing and finally
activates fuel cut if nothing
helps. If this happens some times the ECU jumps
onto the low-octane fuel map
and also retards the timing for the first 20
seconds (not really sure) and it
doesn't allow you to go over 3200rpm.
> Is there anyway to get rid of
this or is ECU reprogramming the only way?
Reprogramming the ECU means
tweaking the fuel-map and changing the limiter.
That's it ! So the only
solution to drive your car save in different ambient
temps with more than say
15psi is to change the fuel system and other things to
reduce the combustion
chamber temperature. Unfortunately, I do have some
experience with this and
they can be seen on :
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/3000gt.html
Just
go to the "problems" page :(
Happy boosting,
Roger,
93'3000GT TT
saw 18-19psi .. saw the rebuild afterwards
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:11:03 -0500
From: "Meyer" <meyer2@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Question on what clutch to install?
Roger et.al.,
We have the RPS
turbo clutch carbon on Matt's VR4. It is fantastic. Easy to
drive and holds
like crazy. We also sell the RPS line so email privately or
call 301
824 3337 for our usual low prices.
Frank
www.AcceleratedAccessories.com
-
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Gerl <robby@swissonline.ch>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date:
Thursday, March 18, 1999 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Question on what clutch
to install?
>I heard nothing but good about the RPS clutches. The
Carbon Claw seems to
be not
>good for a daily driver but the new Turbo
Carbon offers a good pedal
feeling
>including great hold on the high
rpm dumps. I probably will be soon in the
need
>to get a new clutch :)
and I probably will go their way.
>http://www.turboclutch.com/
>Maybe
someone else has more input on them
?
>
>Regards,
>Roger
>93'3000GT TT
>For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:44:09 -0500
From: Joshua <joshua@princelaw.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Anybody Find anything out about the auto Tranny?
Has anybody been
able to find out what type of automatic transmission was
used in those very
limited vr-4's and Stealths? Could it be the same as in
the SL's???
just curious
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:47:36 -0500
From: William Lynn Larsen <wlarsen@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Need Cat-Back Air Filter & New rims &Tires
Can somebody describe
the "Home Depot Ram Air" talked about here?
Thanks,
Lynn
#0232
Ken Taft wrote:
> Home Depot Ram Air or Not-Recomendations
Please
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Mar 1999 23:28:12 EST
From: CHiLER555@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Anybody Find anything out about the auto Tranny?
What??? Does
anybody know anybody who has a auto vr4/tt??? Thats
pretty
intresting. I wonder how they perform,
Larry
A,
94 3000gt SL
#224
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:43:05 +1100
From: Andrew Clark <chemist1@ozemail.com.au>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: =?us-ascii?Q?RE=3A_Team3S=3A_Results=3A__getting_rid_of_the_in?=
=?us-ascii?Q?famous_ticking_under_the_valve_cov=09er?=
As a matter on
interest, I thought I had solved my lash adjuster noise
problem by using
Mobil-1 synthetic after trying most other cures apart
from replacement on
lash adjusters. There has been no noise from the
lash adjusters for the last
6 weeks since the Mobil-1 went in. Now in
the last couple of days I've
noticed that old ticking noise starting
again once the car gets warm, so it
looks like its time to replace the
offending
parts.
Regards
Andrew
Australia
Steven Clarke wrote:
>
> You have either got air in your lifters or (more probably) bad
lifters.
>
> Steve Clarke
>
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: Gross, Erik [SMTP:erik.gross@intel.com]
>
Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 1:10 PM
>
To: 'Starnet 3Si Mailing List'; 'Dragnet 3S Mailing
List'
> Subject: Team3S:
Results: getting rid of the infamous ticking under the valve
cov er
>
> Ok, so for those
wanting the executive summary: it's not gone.
>
> The
symptoms:
> * Ticking sound coming
from under the valve cover(s - hard to hear
> back bank).
>
* Quiet (almost not noticeable) when engine
is cold, loud when engine
> is warm.
>
* Doesn't go away when revving the engine
slightly.
> * Sound like
> http://members.home.net/twinturbo/8bit22k-Engine6ftFront.wav
BTW thanks to
> Rob for putting that on the web!
>
> Things
I've tried:
> * 10W30 dino oil
>
* 0W30 Mobil 1 Synthetic
>
* 5W30 Mobil 1 Synthetic
>
* 10W30 Mobil 1 Synthetic
(currently)
> * Firestone oil filter
(ok, so that's bad)
> * OEM
filters
> * K&N Oil Filter
(currently)
> * Marvel Mystery oil
(1qt MMO /3 qts M1 5W30Syn)
> * Arty's
cleaning method (posted on
> http://members.home.net/twinturbo/)
>
* Filling oil so it's 1/2 way up the
dipstick (4.3qt with filter
> replace - NA car)
>
* Filling oil so it's at the top mark on the
dipstick. (4.5qt with
> filter replace - NA car)
>
* Revving the engine slowly to 3k RPM and
back down several times.
> * Removing
oil cap while engine's running to verify that oil is
> getting to the cams
and valves. Lots o' oil being slung around. Looks ok
> upon
visual inspection.
> * Beating
forehead repeatedly against front valve cover and bruising
> the Mitsu
diamond onto my forehead. Perhaps will try this when engine is
> hot
:)
>
> Things I haven't tried (yet):
>
* Filling the oil only to the bottom mark on
the dipstick. (How much
> should I drain out if it's currently sitting at
the top mark on the
> dipsitck???
>
* Anything others might suggest
>
* Talking to the dealer (trying to do
everything I can before I do
> this).
>
> Possible Causes I
Know of:
> * Too much oil in oil pan
(to be explored asap)
> * Bad lash
adjuster(s)
> * Bad bearing somewhere
(where?)
> * Bad valve(s)
>
* Gummy bears I accidentally left under the
valve cover ;)
>
> So, anyone have any other suggestions?
Possible causes of the problem?
> Ways to solve the problem? Is it
time to go to the dealer? Help?
>
> TIA
>
--Erik
>
>
------
----------
> Erik
Gross
DuPont, WA
> '95 Pearl White 3000GT 50k mi + ticking lash adjusters
mod
>
------
----------
> "Richard does not know Mother Teresa, but he does know
me.
> And that is the most humbling aspect of the doctrine of
the
> Holy Spirit. Richard probably will never hear a voice
from
> a whirlwind that drowns out all questions. He will
likely
> never get a personal glimpse of God in this life. He
will
> only see me." --Philip
Yancey Disappointment With God
>
-------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
*
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:20:04 -0500
From: Leland Gray <grayda@erols.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Brakes
I'm having some trouble with the front brakes on my 93 Stealth
ES.
Here's what's happening: I start to slow down and turn the
steering
wheel at the same time (usually when I'm going into a parking
spot).
All of a sudden, the brake pedal starts vibrating up an down
violently,
all the while making this awful sounding grinding noises that are
coming
from the area of the front brakes. Also, when this happens, the car
car
doesn't slow down and stop like it's supposed to. It takes a lot
longer
as a result of the problem. It also happens whenever I
slide, like on
ice and snow. If I am coming to a stop and I step on the
brakes and the
car slides, the brakes will do the same thing. Please
help. I think
there is a serious problem. I already checked, and
there was a recall
on the brake hoses (whatrever those are), but that was
already fixed by
the previous owner..
Thanks,
Leland
93
Dodge Stealth ES
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:44:25 -0600
From: Wayne <wala@hypertech-inc.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Brakes
This is normal for vehicles with ABS. The vibration
you are feeling is the
ABS pump doing it's job to prevent the wheels from
locking up. The
vibration and noise is very unsettling, I personally can't
stand ABS.
Unfortunately you will either have to live with it, or take it
easy braking
on wet or slick roads. If you are experiencing this on dry
roads, during
light braking, you have a problem that you will have to have
checked out at
the dealer. Before spending major bucks, contact me, i have
some ABS parts
for sale. However, if the "ABS" light is not coming on, you
just need to
take it easy.....
Wayne
At 08:20 AM 3/19/99
-0500, you wrote:
>I'm having some trouble with the front brakes on my 93
Stealth ES.
>Here's what's happening: I start to slow down and turn
the steering
>wheel at the same time (usually when I'm going into a
parking spot).
>All of a sudden, the brake pedal starts vibrating up
an down violently,
>all the while making this awful sounding grinding
noises that are coming
>from the area of the front brakes. Also, when this
happens, the car car
>doesn't slow down and stop like it's supposed
to. It takes a lot longer
>as a result of the problem.
It also happens whenever I slide, like on
>ice and snow. If I am
coming to a stop and I step on the brakes and the
>car slides, the brakes
will do the same thing. Please help. I think
>there is a
serious problem. I already checked, and there was a recall
>on the
brake hoses (whatrever those are), but that was already fixed by
>the
previous owner..
>
>Thanks,
>
>Leland
>93 Dodge
Stealth ES
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:13:32 -0500
From: Bryan Schwieg <schwieg@ibm.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Eliminating Fuel Cut
- ------
=_NextPart_000_01BE71EF.4363F7E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
If you have a
'91-'93 a vpc will solve it. '94 and up you probably have to reprogram the
ecu.
- ----------
From: Del A Kolasinski[SMTP:pearlvr42c@juno.com]
Sent:
Friday, March 19, 1999 7:12 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Team3S: Eliminating Fuel Cut
Okay, so I'm sick of flying through my front
window whenever my SPI boost
guage hits 18psi. Is there anyway to get
rid of this or is ECU
reprogramming the only way? I know that in my
Talon that I had last year
a guuted Mass Air Sensor and a few other free be
tricks eliminated this.
I know that is not a good idea on these cars but
does anyone have any
other
ideas?
Del
___________________________________________________________________
You
don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely
free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or
call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
-
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Date:
Fri, 19 Mar 1999 06:52:25 PST
From: "Chris S." <shadowphantom_1@hotmail.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Volume vs Mass Air Flow...
Has anyone heard anything new
about the TRE MASC? When is it suppose to
be back on the
market?
Chris
>airflow. This is why the TRE MASC is
such a handy device.
>
>Like the VPC, tools like the AFC and MASC
also trick the ECU into
seeing
>different airflow values than what are
actually measured by the MAS.
>
>
>Barry
>
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Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:14:59 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re:
Team3S: RE: Team3S: Results: getting rid of the infamous ticking under the
valve cov er
Hey Andrew;
I don't remember if you flushed or not??
It will make a difference and clean out the baked oil. The oil
bakes (which
is why people install Turbo timers) but an idle down period before shutdown
really
discourages this from occurring...and hence forstalls ticking. A
simple change to Mobil 1 does help, but
the flush prior to it really is a
quantum leap.
Best
Darc
Andrew Clark wrote:
> As
a matter on interest, I thought I had solved my lash adjuster noise
>
problem by using Mobil-1 synthetic after trying most other cures apart
>
from replacement on lash adjusters. There has been no noise from the
>
lash adjusters for the last 6 weeks since the Mobil-1 went in. Now in
>
the last couple of days I've noticed that old ticking noise starting
>
again once the car gets warm, so it looks like its time to replace the
>
offending parts.
> Regards
> Andrew
>
Australia
>
> Steven Clarke wrote:
> >
> > You
have either got air in your lifters or (more probably) bad lifters.
>
>
> > Steve Clarke
> >
> > -----Original
Message-----
> > From: Gross, Erik [SMTP:erik.gross@intel.com]
>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 1999 1:10 PM
> >
To: 'Starnet 3Si Mailing List'; 'Dragnet 3S Mailing
List'
> > Subject: Team3S:
Results: getting rid of the infamous ticking under the valve
cov er
> >
> > Ok, so for
those wanting the executive summary: it's not gone.
> >
>
> The symptoms:
> > * Ticking
sound coming from under the valve cover(s - hard to hear
> > back
bank).
> > * Quiet (almost not
noticeable) when engine is cold, loud when engine
> > is warm.
>
> * Doesn't go away when revving the
engine slightly.
> > * Sound
like
> > http://members.home.net/twinturbo/8bit22k-Engine6ftFront.wav
BTW thanks to
> > Rob for putting that on the web!
> >
>
> Things I've tried:
> > * 10W30
dino oil
> > * 0W30 Mobil 1
Synthetic
> > * 5W30 Mobil 1
Synthetic
> > * 10W30 Mobil 1
Synthetic (currently)
> > *
Firestone oil filter (ok, so that's bad)
> >
* OEM filters
> >
* K&N Oil Filter (currently)
>
> * Marvel Mystery oil (1qt MMO /3 qts M1
5W30Syn)
> > * Arty's cleaning
method (posted on
> > http://members.home.net/twinturbo/)
>
> * Filling oil so it's 1/2 way up the
dipstick (4.3qt with filter
> > replace - NA car)
> >
* Filling oil so it's at the top mark on the
dipstick. (4.5qt with
> > filter replace - NA car)
> >
* Revving the engine slowly to 3k RPM and
back down several times.
> > *
Removing oil cap while engine's running to verify that oil is
> >
getting to the cams and valves. Lots o' oil being slung around.
Looks ok
> > upon visual inspection.
> >
* Beating forehead repeatedly against front
valve cover and bruising
> > the Mitsu diamond onto my forehead.
Perhaps will try this when engine is
> > hot :)
> >
>
> Things I haven't tried (yet):
> >
* Filling the oil only to the bottom mark on
the dipstick. (How much
> > should I drain out if it's currently
sitting at the top mark on the
> > dipsitck???
> >
* Anything others might suggest
> >
* Talking to the dealer (trying to do
everything I can before I do
> > this).
> >
> >
Possible Causes I Know of:
> > *
Too much oil in oil pan (to be explored asap)
> >
* Bad lash adjuster(s)
> >
* Bad bearing somewhere (where?)
>
> * Bad valve(s)
> >
* Gummy bears I accidentally left under the
valve cover ;)
> >
> > So, anyone have any other
suggestions? Possible causes of the problem?
> > Ways to solve
the problem? Is it time to go to the dealer? Help?
>
>
> > TIA
> > --Erik
> >
> >
------
----------
> > Erik
Gross
DuPont, WA
> > '95 Pearl White 3000GT 50k mi + ticking lash adjusters
mod
> >
------
----------
> > "Richard does not know Mother Teresa, but he does know
me.
> > And that is the most humbling aspect of the doctrine of
the
> > Holy Spirit. Richard probably will never hear a
voice from
> > a whirlwind that drowns out all questions.
He will likely
> > never get a personal glimpse of God in this
life. He will
> > only see me." --Philip
Yancey Disappointment With God
> >
-------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> > *
> > For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
>
> > For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
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------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Mar 1999 08:24:39 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Volume vs Mass Air Flow...
Likely never. The inventor/designer of
the MASC has taken a position at a
performance electronics
company.
Did anyone talked with the company at this link? http://www.splitsec.com
I've posted it
twice now but haven't heard any feedback.
Barry
>
-----Original Message-----
>
> Has anyone heard anything new about
the TRE MASC? When is it suppose to
> be back on the
market?
>
> Chris
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
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------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:28:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Brakes
On Fri, 19 Mar 1999, Wayne wrote:
> This is normal for
vehicles with ABS. The vibration you are feeling is
> the ABS pump doing
it's job to prevent the wheels from locking up. The
I'm not sure I
completely agree. What he's describing is much more severe
than
anything I've ever experienced on other ABS-equipped vehicles. (My
93
Stealth ES doesn't have ABS, so I'm not familiar with the setup
Mitsu
installed.) Most functioning ABS I've driven with will vibrate
the pedal
slightly, and you might hear a whirring noise (like very muted
machine-gun
fire). But violent pedal motion and huge clunking noise
indicate a
problem somewhere.
At risk of starting a huge debate, I
have to speak up in support of ABS
for *most* "real world" driving
situtations. If you're racing, then you've
probably had lots of training
and/or experience in all types of braking
procedures: in those situations,
ABS would be a hinderance. However, if
you're driving along in southern
Indiana, and the bridge is covered with
black ice, ABS is a life saver!
(Personal experience in my 94 Jimmy, when
ABS helped me steer around a
non-ABS vehicle which was spinning out.)
My recommendation to the
original complaint is to go test drive a new
ABS-equipped 3000GT SL, and try
to duplicate the conditions. See how the
noise and pedal vibration
compares to yours. That would help indicate if
your ABS is functioning
properly.
Dennis Moore
stealth@kiva.net
Experience is
something you don't get until just after you need it.
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:37:23 +0100
From: lehir@genesiscom.ch (Genesiscon
Lehir)
Subject: Team3S: Paint and cooling question
Hello
everyone...
I have two questions..
my 92 Stealth is white pearl,
but the pop-up headlights are black...and I do
not like this.
Given that
my car will be at the body shop for a paint job (small cosmetic
problems),
I'm thinking about having the black metal plates above the
headlamps
repainted with the same color as the body. I downloaded pictures
of the same
car, and electronically changed the color, and I kinda like the
result....any
comments ??
Even if it's still cold here (was snowing this
morning....sorry Roger, bad
news, Ca weather was better) I noticed that the
underhood temperature is
HIGH....
I'm wondering if there's a way to change
/ transform these
cosmetic-non-functional air scoop we have on the bonnet
?...would be a good
way to reduce engine temperature (thus increasing
HP....), and given that
these are hold on the bonned via bolts...should be a
bolt on (of course, pun
intended )upgrade.
Best
regards
Henri
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Mar 1999 07:40:04 -0800
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: cooling question
- -----Original Message-----
From: lehir@genesiscom.ch [mailto:lehir@genesiscom.ch]
Sent:
Friday, March 19, 1999 7:37 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Team3S: Paint and cooling question
<snip>
I'm wondering if there's a
way to change / transform these
cosmetic-non-functional air scoop we have on
the bonnet ?...would be a good
way to reduce engine temperature (thus
increasing HP....), and given that
these are hold on the bonned via
bolts...should be a bolt on (of course, pun
intended )upgrade.
Best
regards
Henri
=======================
Henri...
Arty has some
Bozz Speed scoops on his 1st gen, they look great. Beware,
however, they are
extraction scoops, not induction. Still a good way to
release some of the
heat. I wish the 2nd gens had the same strut tower
covers.
Looking
forward...Chris
1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4 (w/HKS Super Flo intake, HKS
SBOV, Predator dry
cell battery, bored and polished throttle body, Magnecore
8.5mm wires, HKS
double platinum plugs gapped at .034", GReddy PRofec A boost
controller,
GReddy turbo timer, ATR downpipe and test pipe, GReddy catback
exhaust,
Eibach 1" drop progressive springs)
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:09:40 -0500
From: "Michael D. Romano" <mdr-nhl@worldnet.att.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Paint and cooling question
Personally, I agree with you on
the headlight covers. I think they look
better being the same color as the
rest of the body.
- -Mike
'93 Stealth ES
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of Genesiscon
> Lehir
> Sent: Friday, March 19, 1999 10:37
AM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
Subject: Team3S: Paint and cooling question
>
>
> Hello
everyone...
>
> I have two questions..
>
> my 92 Stealth
is white pearl, but the pop-up headlights are
> black...and I do
>
not like this.
> Given that my car will be at the body shop for a paint
job (small cosmetic
> problems), I'm thinking about having the black metal
plates above the
> headlamps repainted with the same color as the body. I
downloaded pictures
> of the same car, and electronically changed the
color, and I
> kinda like the
> result....any comments
??
>
> Even if it's still cold here (was snowing this
morning....sorry Roger, bad
> news, Ca weather was better) I noticed that
the underhood temperature is
> HIGH....
> I'm wondering if there's a
way to change / transform these
> cosmetic-non-functional air scoop we
have on the bonnet ?...would
> be a good
> way to reduce engine
temperature (thus increasing HP....), and given that
> these are hold on
the bonned via bolts...should be a bolt on (of
> course, pun
>
intended )upgrade.
>
> Best regards
>
>
Henri
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:12:26 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Brakes
My advise in this situation is to take it to the dealer or
Brake Shop ASAP. It is a moot
point to debate what it might be if we read
about you in the obits. How are the pads" Is
one of them loose? It's happened
before believe it or not. The metal on metal noise is
NOT GOOD. Get it looked
at rather then seeking advise. Often brake shops do free
inspections
and give you a free estimate.
Best
Darc
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Mar 1999 09:21:43 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re:
Team3S: cooling question
Hi Henri;
As Chris noted, Bozz
makes (pricey) extraction scoops (heat extraction isn't a bad
idea), and at
least one member, Todd Shelton, has forward facing ram type scoops
where
these shock tower "blisters" bolt on. Visit his homepage (don't have it
handy)...are you
out here Todd?
Best
Darc
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Mar 1999 12:31:09 -0500
From: William Lynn Larsen <wlarsen@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
cooling question
Todd's website:
http://www.brightok.net/~tds/stealth1.html
wce@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:
>
> Hi Henri;
>
> idea), and at least one member, Todd
Shelton, has forward facing ram
> type scoops where
> these shock
tower "blisters" bolt on. Visit his homepage (don't have
> it handy)...are
you
> out here Todd?
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------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:28:39 +0000
From: "J. Stephen Gula" <loco3kgt@widomaker.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Paint and cooling question
> I'm wondering if there's a
way to change / transform these
> cosmetic-non-functional air scoop we
have on the bonnet ?
Email Henry Yam of RPM Motorsports <rpmmotorsport@adelphia.net> and
ask
about BOZZ Speed's Bonnet scoops. They look like stock but have vents
in
the rear of the scoops to allow for heat to escape. Look pretty
damn
sweet too.
- --Steve "Loco3KGT" Gula
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info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
End
of Team3S Digest V1 #128
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