--
From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
(Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Team3S Digest V1 #105
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Errors-To:
owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Precedence:
bulk
Team3S Digest Friday,
February 19 1999 Volume 01 : Number
105
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Feb 1999 18:02:25 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
3000GTs have a speed governor?
There is a limiter on the 3/S TT
models. It is not a hard limiter like say
a stock Supra TT. The
limiter kicks in after some speed (I seem to recall
150-155) and watches the
rate of acceleration above that point. If the
car's acceleration is
below some delta the limiter kicks in. This is why
some people can get
154-156 MPH tops and others have had them wound out to
180 mph without ECU
modifications. The more power you have the faster
you'll be able to go
within the parameters of the soft limiter.
This was explained to me by
someone who uses the TechTom ECU equipment.
G-Force uses it too so presumably
they could remove this "feature". Duh.
Just checked. Their web site
indicates this. =)
Did you get this mnod also
Arty?
Regards,
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
>
> My 93 3000GT VR4 has a limit of 160 MPH. It
had a lot left but would not
> budge. According to G-Force
engineering, this limit exists and is correct
> for my
car.
>
> It can be overridden for a price. I bet Arty has done
this!
>
> marc
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:14:59 -0500
From: "BRADLEY A COCKS." <BRADCOCKS@prodigy.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: 3000GTs have a speed
governor?
Hello,
I have had my car up to 165
indicated mph, did not notice any governor,
or limiter though it was a long
push from 140 and up ,mostly wind
resistance.... if I put my
headlights down I would have easily gone
170...
tire size: Goodyear
=
255/45/ZR17
Brad Cocks
bradcocks@prodigy.net
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:42:10 -0600
From: "Jeremy R." <grund@nationwide.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: 3000GTs have a speed governor?
from everything I've ever
understood about our cars as far as speed
governors go, the limit is always
denoted as "drag limited" which means
there is no electronic limiter, that
the aerodynamic properties of our car
themselves limit our top end. my
.02
Jeremy
91 Stealth R/T n/a which has reached 135 (no 120mph limit
bullshit)
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Sent:
Thursday, February 18, 1999 4:34 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: 3000GTs have a speed
governor?
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Gross, Erik [mailto:erik.gross@intel.com]
>Sent:
Thursday, February 18, 1999 2:23 PM
>To: 'Team3S List'
>Subject:
Team3S: 3000GTs have a speed governor?
>
>Hey guys, quick
question: do the 3000GTs have any sort of electronic
speed
>limiter? I know some of the stealths has some kind of
governor at 120mph
at
>some point. Anything similar on the
3000GTs? Autobahn people, you guys
had
>to remove anything?
Roger?
>
>--Erik
>====================================
>Erik...
>
>Not
sure about all 3000GT models (base, SL, VR4), but I've had mine
over
>140mph.
>
>Looking forward...Chris
>
>1995
Glacier Pearl White VR4 (w/HKS Super Flo intake, HKS SBOV,
Predator
dry
>cell battery, bored and polished throttle body, Magnecore
8.5mm wires, HKS
>double platinum plugs gapped at .034", GReddy PRofec A
boost controller,
>GReddy turbo timer, ATR downpipe and test pipe, GReddy
catback exhaust,
>Eibach 1" drop progressive springs)
>For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:53:49 -0500
From: "Marc Spinale" <mspinale@mediaone.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: 3000GTs have a speed governor?
Please read the attached from
Nov 97. Looks like we need to get to the
bottom of this
one...
marc
- -----Original Message-----
From: robert [mailto:robert@neophiliax.com]
Sent:
Tuesday, November 18, 1997 4:20 PM
To: Marc Spinale
Subject: 3000
ECU
Hello Marc thanks for the interest.
Yes, there is a speed
limiter between 160-165 MPH that is removed as
part of our upgrade.
Yes,
please see the DEC. issue of Super Street magazine for a nice
pictorial of an
ECU upgrade on a 3000GT, It just hit the stands this
week.
The data
editing software is called Mighty Map ($1500.) and this would
allow you to do
your own programming. For the complete listing of all
the address' for the
3000GT programs you will need to purchase the
registration ($500). To do real
time program tuning and map tracing you
will need the MT-2000($6500.)(Mighty
Map incl.). Lastly you will need a
ROM-BOARD($400) and a couple
EPROM's.
Instead I would recommend our normal high performance upgrade
for
$845.00 installed and ready to plug in.
Yes, the upgrade will work
with any electronic boost control including
the EVC. Also the filter, exhaust
and VPC.
No 100% cure for the misfire but good spark plugs tend to
help.
No fact sheet available for download but you can check our web site
at
www.g-force-engr.com for more
info, we should have an upgraded FAQ soon.
Unfortunately no dealers near
so you will have to go direct through us.
Your 3000 should be able to make
360-370 hp easy with exhaust, filter,
evc, and ecu.
That would take it
through the 1/4 mi in approx. 13.6 or better @
106-108+MPH (14.2 @ 100-102
stock).
Don't hesitate to e-mail any additional questions or
concerns.
Robert
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Feb 1999 19:33:09 -0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: 3000GTs have a speed governor?
- -----Original Message-----From:
Gross, Erik <erik.gross@intel.com>
|Hey guys,
quick question: do the 3000GTs have any sort of electronic
speed
|limiter? I know some of the stealths has some kind of governor
at 120mph
at
|some point. Anything similar on the 3000GTs?
Autobahn people, you guys
had
|to remove anything?
Roger?
S/3k Turbos have a "feedback loop" kind of limiter built into
the ECU, and
Japanese GTOs have an additional limiter...
I don't think
there are limiters on the S/3k base models-- no ECU mods on
my '94
Stealth NT, but I've been at 135 with an inch of pedal left. I
slowed
down because I only had V-rated tires...
Forrest
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Feb 1999 19:41:50 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re:
Team3S: 3000GTs have a speed governor?
Marc Spinale forwarded the
following information:
snip
Hello Marc thanks for the
interest.
> Yes, there is a speed limiter between 160-165 MPH that is
removed as
> part of our upgrade.
snipHmmm...dunno. I have run out
of road in excess of 160mph, and had to cool
it...maybe I was just
about to run into the strong headwind (read limiter) discussed
here, but it
seemed the car was good for more and wasn't maxed out. This is the first
I
have heard of it and took it to be bogus until this G force response. Has
anyone hit
this hypothetical barrier (no longer hypothetical if it's there)
where you've got more
straight road to encounter it than we have here on the
island?? Roger, Jim, Mikael??
Darc
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:13:29 -0500
From: William Lynn Larsen <wlarsen@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Air/Water intercooler
If you are going to use a freon charged evaporative
cooler (air
conditioner), you may want to think about chilling the fuel line
as
well. I am not sure about the density change of gasoline
with
temperature drop, but I have seen systems for cooling the fuel line
to
deliver the densest (most) fuel possible to whatever injector you have.
This will also help avoid another problem with turbocharged/fuel
injected
engines: vapor lock.
Regards,
Lynn
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:17:24 -0700
From: "james berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Team3S: dyno
tests --- drivetrain loss [long]
Just some observations on the
recent round of dyno tests -- It seems that
a fairly consistent loss of 80
Kilowatts of drivetrain loss is being
reported. My question is where the hell
does it GO!! 80 kW is a serious
amount of power that has to be dissipated as
heat. Without the benefit of a
radiator.
The biggest loss items
excluding the tires are the transaxle and the
differential. Lots of gears,
bearings, power redirection, fluids etc.. My
old thermodynamics classes
taught me that dissipating, say, 20 kW in a
chunk of metal the
size of a transmission is not easily done. These devices
are not heavily
finned nor are they directly in the air flow.
To a lesser degree
that also applies to the differential. It's smaller but
probably gets better
air flow.
The CV joints and hubs should have minimal losses
[roller bearings and
ball bearings] plus if you feel the suspension after a
run without using
brakes the components feel relatively cool [ few kW's
dissipated ].
Tires are probably a major loss item, lots of
elastic deformation going
on. I know the tires get a substantial amount of
heat buildup but I don't
have any feel for how much power they have to
dissipate. BTY If they are a
major contributor to loss, the effect
wouldn't be as drastic on a two wheel
dyno. The two undriven wheels are not
moving nor is their potential loss
taken into account.
While there's
not much to be done to change these non-aerodynamic losses it
would be nice
to know if the numbers are realistic.
I also believe that wheel HP
is the number we should care about. Power to
the roadway is what moves the
car. Flywheel HP is feelgood HP --- good for
bragging rights but it don't win
races. : )
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:27:41 -0800
From: "Bill" <compren@lightspeed.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Vr-4 to automatic?
Nope...
They may have seen a
non-vr4 with a sticker kit of some sort?
- -Bill
>I was told
that there was in very few numbers produced vr-4's in automatic.
>Has
anybody else heard this?
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 00:28:57 EST
From: Waflestomp@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S:
3000GTs have a speed governor?
147mph here and still climbing (slowly)
just got a little nervous at 2x the
speed limit in my 3KGT.
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:04:22 PST
From: "Zentelis none" <zentelis@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Envelope pushers
This is just a personal inquirey (sp?) out of
curiosity. I've been
reading about all the 0-60's and 1/4 speed/time's but
i'm curious,
what're some of the top speeds you turbo upgraded owners are
getting?
I'm guessing most, if any at all, of the replies will be you
autobahn
runners :) Since I can't afford a '94 TT 15G yet, i just wondered
so i
could dream about whatever top speeds you're getting
:)
______________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 19:27:11 +1100
From: Andrew Clark <chemist1@ozemail.com.au>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Ticking noise resolved!!
Chris Winkley wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Clark [mailto:chemist1@ozemail.com.au]
>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 1:37 AM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
Subject: Team3S: Ticking noise resolved!!
>
> <snip> Speaking
to the
> service manager he suggested to switching to Mobil-1 synthetic (
which I
> realise 99% of this group already use in their engines ) so he
changed
> the oil for me again at no cost & the noise has
gone.<more snip>
> Andrew
> Australia
> VR4
>
=====================================
> Andrew...
>
> What
weight Castrol were you using? What weight Mobil-1 did the shop put
in?
It was the same in both oils ,.. 10-60W.
BTW I never experienced
this noise when the engine was using the
standard mineral oil, it only
started when I started using a
synthetic.
Regards
Andrew
Australia
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:24:35 +0100
From: Roger Gerl <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Envelope pushers
> runners :) Since I can't afford a '94 TT
15G yet, i just wondered so i
> could dream about whatever top speeds
you're getting :)
The fastest I ever ran was about 174mph with the EU 13G
model. The
speedo was off the scale and pointed to about 300km/h. This means
about
285km/h - 290km/h real speed. I was not able to take a pic as it
was
just too scary ;-)
Roger, Switzerland
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:04:54 +0100
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?="
<vr4@bahnhof.se>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: 3000GTs have a speed governor?
>Has anyone hit this
hypothetical barrier (no longer hypothetical if it's >there) where you've got
more straight road to encounter it than we >have here on the island?? Roger,
Jim, Mikael??
>Darc
I have seen 165-170 mph on the meter.
This was just after I "walked" away from a Corvette :) I gues he was limited to
155 mph or he just didn't have any more power. I felt that the car actually had
more to give but it's very scary to drive that fast and the road feels very
narrow at this speeds. The car actually feels stable but the noice from the
sunroof is painfull. I would gladly pay 1000$ to get that stupid sunroof
replaced with a solid roof. It's ugly and noicy, I hate it!
Regarding the
limiter, Maybe there is a limiter that lower the boost so it feels like
the car don't have the power to go any faster. That explaines why we, that have
disconnected the stock boost solenoid, can go faster that 155 mph. Or
maybe there isn't any limiter... :)
/Mikael http://www.bahnhof.se/~vr4
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:05:03 EST
From: MikeVR4@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Re: Ground
Control to Major Tom
<< Look for a number in the range of 240 to
275. I recall their being some
alpha characters also, maybe Eibach's name.
>>
Thanks, I'll look again.
Mike Willis
'93 Pearl White
VR-4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:39:47 +0100
From: Roger Gerl <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Cyl head temperatures
> That the most commonly accepted place
to put the CHT probe. Cylinder head
> temperatures will vary by head
design but I would expect to see 650 F there
> but you'll have to check it
out and see for yourself since I have never seen
> a 6G72 measured
there.
Gulp, 650 F would be really high. I hope not to see more than 450
F :)
BTW, I'll get the desired temps information from my Mitsu
contact.
Thanks,
Roger, Switzerland
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:57:17 EST
From: Aso8@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: 3000GTs have
a speed governor?
The old limiter on my 91 VR-4 was set approx. 7200
rpms.
With my new ECU I've been past 8000 rpms.
Kinda scary seeing the
dial so far in the red.
Arty 91 Vr-4
In a message dated 2/18/99
3:59:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mspinale@mediaone.net
writes:
<< Subj: RE: Team3S: 3000GTs have a speed
governor?
Date: 2/18/99 3:59:58 PM Pacific Standard Time
From:
mspinale@mediaone.net (Marc
Spinale)
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Reply-to:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
My
93 3000GT VR4 has a limit of 160 MPH. It had a lot left but would
not
budge. According to G-Force engineering, this limit exists
and is correct
for my car.
It can be overridden for
a price. I bet Arty has done this!
marc >>
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 07:13:23 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
3000GTs have a speed governor?
Arty,
That's the rev limiter, but
did they mention the (ground) speed limiter?
The two individuals I spoke
with who work with the 3/S ECU claim it
definitely exists, but is a soft
limiter, not a hard limiter. I am curious
to know if G-Force actually
does remove it as they claim and also more
details about it if
possible.
Regards,
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
>
> The old limiter on my 91 VR-4 was set approx. 7200
rpms.
> With my new ECU I've been past 8000 rpms.
> Kinda scary
seeing the dial so far in the red.
> Arty 91 Vr-4
>
> In a
message dated 2/18/99 3:59:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> mspinale@mediaone.net
writes:
>
> << Subj: RE: Team3S: 3000GTs have a speed
governor?
> Date: 2/18/99 3:59:58 PM Pacific Standard
Time
> From: mspinale@mediaone.net (Marc
Spinale)
> Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
Reply-to: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
>
My 93 3000GT VR4 has a limit of 160 MPH. It had a lot left but would
not
> budge. According to G-Force engineering, this limit
exists and
> is correct
> for my car.
>
> It
can be overridden for a price. I bet Arty has done
this!
>
> marc >>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:39:33 EST
From: Aso8@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: 3000GTs have
a speed governor?
Barry, Although I've never had the car to 165 or above
to determine if the
limiter is gone, it was ordered removed when all the
other limiters were done.
For sure the rev limiter was
removed.
Arty
In a message dated 2/19/99 6:15:08 AM Pacific Standard
Time, beking@home.com
writes:
<<
Subj: RE: Team3S: 3000GTs have a speed governor?
Date: 2/19/99 6:15:08
AM Pacific Standard Time
From: beking@home.com (Barry E.
King)
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Reply-to:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Arty,
That's
the rev limiter, but did they mention the (ground) speed
limiter?
The two individuals I spoke with who work with the
3/S ECU claim it
definitely exists, but is a soft limiter, not a hard
limiter. I am curious
to know if G-Force actually does remove it
as they claim and also more
details about it if
possible.
Regards,
Barry
>
-----Original Message-----
>
> The old limiter on my 91
VR-4 was set approx. 7200 rpms.
> With my new ECU I've been past
8000 rpms.
> Kinda scary seeing the dial so far in the
red.
> Arty 91 Vr-4
>
> In a message dated
2/18/99 3:59:58 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> mspinale@mediaone.net
writes:
>
> << Subj: RE: Team3S: 3000GTs have a
speed governor?
> Date: 2/18/99 3:59:58 PM Pacific Standard
Time
> From: mspinale@mediaone.net (Marc
Spinale)
> Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
Reply-to: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
>
My 93 3000GT VR4 has a limit of 160 MPH. It had a lot left but would
not
> budge. According to G-Force engineering, this
limit exists and
> is correct
> for my
car.
>
> It can be overridden for a price. I
bet Arty has done this!
>
> marc
>>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:23:43 -0600
From: Wayne <wala@hypertech-inc.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: dyno tests --- drivetrain loss [long]
I'm sure someone is
working on a more scientific response, but i thought i
would throw in my 2
cents.
Iv'e never taken any thermodynamics courses, but i think power is
being
dissipated physically, not thermally. It takes a lot of power to rotate
all
the parts of a drivetrain, especially a 4 wheel drivetrain. Take
for
instance if you had a 5hp electric motor with the shaft connected to
a
series of gears and shafts. If you measured hp at the end of all
this
stuff, it certianly wouldn't be 5hp, and i doubt if the gears and
stuff
would be hot. I know it's a crude example, but i think it makes sense.
As far as the 80kw figure is concerned, it's basically a guess. What
they
did (correct me if i'm wrong guys) is add up all the "advertised"
HP
figures of the aftermarket parts, along with the factory hp numbers,
and
used this as thier flywheel hp. Now we all know that
manufacturers
advertise hp gains that even though the manufacturer saw the
gain in a lab
setting, it's hard to get the same gains in real life. So, the
80kw
estimate is high, but it's probably fairly close.
You're right
about the 2 wheel vs. 4 wheel dyno thing. 2 wheel dyno's
typically see about
15-25%, vs. 35% as in this case.
O.K. my 2 cents turned into 5 cents, so
i'll stop now......
Wayne
At 08:17 PM 2/18/99 -0700, you
wrote:
>80 kW is a serious
>amount of power that has to be
dissipated as heat.
>
> The biggest loss items excluding the
tires are the transaxle and the
>differential. Lots of gears, bearings,
power redirection, fluids etc.. My
>old thermodynamics classes taught me
that dissipating, say, 20 kW in a
>chunk of metal the size of
a transmission is not easily done. These devices
>are not heavily finned
nor are they directly in the air flow.
>the effect wouldn't be as
drastic on a two wheel dyno. The two undriven
wheels are not moving nor
is
>their potential loss taken into account.
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 07:22:01 PST
From: "Eric Lotter" <elotter@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Vr-4 to automatic?
I have never heard of the automatic VR-4, BUT
I have seen and test
driven, an AUTOMATIC RT/TT. The owner was not the
original owner, but it
lends credence to the fact that there may have been
some factory
AUTOMATICS in the TT Class.
Eric
>From:
Joshua <joshua@princelaw.com>
>To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Subject:
Team3S: Vr-4 to automatic?
>Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:40:44
-0500
>Reply-To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
>I
was told that there was in very few numbers produced vr-4's in
automatic.
>Has anybody else heard this? I was wondering since
all the
transmission
>seem to go so easily if it might be possible to
put a street strip
>transmission in the car and forget about Gretag.
Any information would
be
>greatly
appreciated.
>Thanks
>Joshua
>3si#0137
>For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
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------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:34:19 -0500
From: "Meyer" <meyer2@erols.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Pistons
All,
Who has replaced their pistons with aftermarket
units? Which brand did you
go with? I am in the process of
deciding between J&E and Ross. I am
leaning towards the Ross
pistons. BTW, for those of you that have done this
swap, are you
running a stock replacement or a custom design?
Thanks
Matt
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:44:22 +0100
From: Roger Gerl <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: dyno tests --- drivetrain loss [long]
> instance if you had a
5hp electric motor with the shaft connected to a
> series of gears and
shafts. If you measured hp at the end of all this
> stuff, it certianly
wouldn't be 5hp, and i doubt if the gears and stuff
> would be hot. I know
it's a crude example, but i think it makes sense.
So why is there a
loss... Simple, it is the loss of the parts rigging
together, like the tires
on the street. This mechanical loss is
transfered into thermal energy than
finally goes away to the ambient.
Drive the car for an hour and just touch
the drive shaft ... it more
that just warm.
> As far as the 80kw
figure is concerned, it's basically a guess.
No, these are the figure we
got from measuring the car on the dyno. The
cars where pulled up to the max
and then the clutch pressed. The dyno
recognized this and measured the
resistance on the rolls by taking up
the energy the e-motors created. 4 cars
where dynoed and all showed
about the same loss. At my earlier session I got
half the loss on a
different dyno and this makes me thinking.
>
You're right about the 2 wheel vs. 4 wheel dyno thing. 2 wheel dyno's
>
typically see about 15-25%, vs. 35% as in this case.
I still think that
this is somewhat too high so stay tuned for further
session this year
:)
Roger, Switzerland
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 07:45:26 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Vr-4 to automatic?
Hey Eric;
Was this a new vehicle at the
time? Any chance it had been upgraded to an automatic? I
know, I know,
whatya mean "upgraded"...however an automatic might seem like a good deal
to
some experiencing Getrag blues. Didn't know they made them, but then again,
didn't
know about a speed limiter (if one
exists).
Best
Darc
Eric Lotter wrote:
> I have
never heard of the automatic VR-4, BUT I have seen and test
> driven, an
AUTOMATIC RT/TT. The owner was not the original owner, but it
> lends
credence to the fact that there may have been some factory
> AUTOMATICS in
the TT Class.
>
> Eric
>
> >From: Joshua <joshua@princelaw.com>
> >To:
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>
>Subject: Team3S: Vr-4 to automatic?
> >Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999
17:40:44 -0500
> >Reply-To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
>
> >I was told that there was in very few numbers produced vr-4's
in
> automatic.
> >Has anybody else heard this? I was
wondering since all the
> transmission
> >seem to go so easily if
it might be possible to put a street strip
> >transmission in the car
and forget about Gretag. Any information would
> be
>
>greatly appreciated.
> >Thanks
> >Joshua
>
>3si#0137
> >For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
>
______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private,
Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
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------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:55:24 -0600
From: "Omar Malik" <ojm@iname.com>
Subject: Team3S: synthetic
vs dino
OK. i've heard so many different things about dino and synthetic
oils, and
which ones are better to use where. I'd like this lists insight as
to what
we NA people should be using. I've read that synthetic lasts longer
and is
less prone to thermal breakdown. But on the DSM list, it's come up a
couple
times that dino oils actually lubricate better at temperatures under
500
degrees. Now i'm sure turbo engines will probably see higher then that
if
not in the cylinders, maybe in the turbos themselves?? As far as
synthetics
lasting longer, we usually change the oil every 2.5k to 3k miles
anyways.
Some people have even noticed the engine tick got louder when they
switched
to synthetic oils. Basically, what i'm trying to say is, should i
use dino
or synthetic in my NA if i'm going to be changing it regularly,
every 2.5k
miles?
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:01:00 PST
From: "Eric Lotter" <elotter@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Vr-4 to automatic?
The person seling the car was the second
owner, and did not know if the
Tranny had been swaped, or if it had come
from the factory that way. He
knew very little about the car except that the
automatics were very rare
in the TT class. I just didn't believe the ad so I
had to take a look at
it.
Very nice car, and a totally different
launch with a brakestand in stead
of dropping the clutch.
Some things
that makes me think it was a factory automatic: Same setup
as the N/A autos,
with the PWR button and the Over drive button
fuctioning.
Now my
theory: I have had experiences with one time, or special order
setups from
the factory, when my sister bought her 82 Monte Carlo TURBO,
to find out it
was a Pre- Grand NAtional, special ordered by a high
volume Chevy dealer for
his Son, one of only two ever made.
These AUTOMATIC TT 3S cars may fall
into the same catagory, undocumeted
special cars with VINS that would match
a 5 speed tranny, that
executives had made for them.
I have a couple
of people digging, but probably won't find
much.
Eric
>From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
>Date: Fri, 19
Feb 1999 07:45:26 -0800
>To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>Subject:
Re: Team3S: Vr-4 to automatic?
>Reply-To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
>Hey
Eric;
>
>Was this a new vehicle at the time? Any chance it had been
upgraded to
an automatic? I
>know, I know, whatya mean
"upgraded"...however an automatic might seem
like a good deal
>to some
experiencing Getrag blues. Didn't know they made them, but then
again,
didn't
>know about a speed limiter (if one
exists).
>
>Best
>
>Darc
>
>Eric Lotter
wrote:
>
>> I have never heard of the automatic VR-4, BUT I have
seen and test
>> driven, an AUTOMATIC RT/TT. The owner was not the
original owner, but
it
>> lends credence to the fact that there may
have been some factory
>> AUTOMATICS in the TT
Class.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> >From: Joshua
<joshua@princelaw.com>
>>
>To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>>
>Subject: Team3S: Vr-4 to automatic?
>> >Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999
17:40:44 -0500
>> >Reply-To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>>
>
>> >I was told that there was in very few numbers produced
vr-4's in
>> automatic.
>> >Has anybody else heard
this? I was wondering since all the
>> transmission
>>
>seem to go so easily if it might be possible to put a street
strip
>> >transmission in the car and forget about Gretag. Any
information
would
>> be
>> >greatly
appreciated.
>> >Thanks
>> >Joshua
>>
>3si#0137
>> >For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is
>> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>>
>>
______________________________________________________
>> Get Your
Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>> For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
>
>
>For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
______________________________________________________
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Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:05:00 -0500
From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Pistons
I replaced my stockers with J-E pistons. It was
basically the stock design
although the ring lands were about 4-5MM lower on
the crown. I also had
them made to fit a .75MM (.030") oversize
bore. I had the block honed to
.0345 oversize, so my cylinder-to-piston
wall clearance is .0045. Standard
value is .0008 to .0016. J-E
says to use .003. I used TotalSeal rings (2nd
ring is "gapless") and
Clevite-77 bearings.
As TotalSeal warned, there is some top end oil
getting pulled past the valve
stem seals but only when the car sits at idle
for more than a couple of
minutes. When I tip the throttle, there's a
pretty good-sized puff of blue
smoke along with a strong smell of unburnt
fuel.
One person warned that J-E pistons were "slapmasters" but I have
absolutely
no evidence of that. I'm really happy with the way the car
sounds and the
way it runs.
- -Bob '93 VR-4
Plugs gapped at
.032"
Hole blown in rear timing cover mod
> Who has replaced their
pistons with aftermarket units? Which
> brand did you
> go
with? I am in the process of deciding between J&E and Ross. I
am
> leaning towards the Ross pistons. BTW, for those of you
that
> have done this
> swap, are you running a stock replacement or
a custom design?
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:31:32 EST
From: Aso8@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Vr-4 to
automatic?
I'd sure to like to here/learn more about this if its
correct?
Who made the tranny.
Arty 91 Vr-4
In a message dated
2/19/99 7:23:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
elotter@hotmail.com
writes:
<< Subj: Re: Team3S: Vr-4 to automatic?
Date:
2/19/99 7:23:08 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: elotter@hotmail.com (Eric
Lotter)
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Reply-to:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
I
have never heard of the automatic VR-4, BUT I have seen and test
driven, an AUTOMATIC RT/TT. The owner was not the original owner, but
it
lends credence to the fact that there may have been some factory
AUTOMATICS in the TT Class.
Eric
>>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:44:58 -0800
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: synthetic vs dino
- -----Original Message-----
From: Omar
Malik [mailto:ojm@iname.com]
Sent: Friday,
February 19, 1999 7:55 AM
To: pro
Subject: Team3S: synthetic vs
dino
OK. i've heard so many different things about dino and synthetic
oils, and
which ones are better to use where. I'd like this lists insight as
to what
we NA people should be using. I've read that synthetic lasts longer
and is
less prone to thermal breakdown. But on the DSM list, it's come up a
couple
times that dino oils actually lubricate better at temperatures under
500
degrees. Now i'm sure turbo engines will probably see higher then that
if
not in the cylinders, maybe in the turbos themselves?? As far as
synthetics
lasting longer, we usually change the oil every 2.5k to 3k miles
anyways.
Some people have even noticed the engine tick got louder when they
switched
to synthetic oils. Basically, what i'm trying to say is, should i
use dino
or synthetic in my NA if i'm going to be changing it regularly,
every
2.5k
miles?
=========================================
Omar...
Yes,
heat is an critical consideration with the turbos, not so critical with
the
NA engines. The issue with "ticking" is the result (IMO) of the
lower
viscosity most of us are using with the synthetics. I have a feeling
we
might find the same symptom with dino oil, if we used a 5w on the low
end.
Keep in mind, the "ticking" is "normal" with hydraulic lifters when
they're
not fully "pumped". They tend not to empty out if you're using
thicker oil,
hence no "ticking". I would be VERY concerned if this symptom
didn't go away
above an idle, but it always does.
Bottom line, you'd
find many opinions, the choice is yours. Either way,
you're doing the right
thing by changing the oil frequently.
BTW...I was a faithful user of
Valvoline 20w - 50w Racing Oil for many, many
years before I bought my first
turbocharged engine. Never had a problem. I
think we should consider another
factor...if we "babied" our cars, never
drove near redline, never drove them
hard and hot, they would certainly last
a LOT longer. Longevity is a tradeoff
we make for the sake of improved
performance. What I strive for is maximum
performance with out completely
sacrificing longevity, but I expect things
(like the clutch) to wear out
faster than they do on my daily driver. Nature
of the Beast.
Looking forward...Chris
1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4
(w/HKS Super Flo intake, HKS SBOV, Predator dry
cell battery, bored and
polished throttle body, Magnecore 8.5mm wires, HKS
double platinum plugs
gapped at .034", GReddy PRofec A boost controller,
GReddy turbo timer, ATR
downpipe and test pipe, GReddy catback exhaust,
Eibach 1" drop progressive
springs)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:23:35 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <middaugh@omega.gat.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: dyno tests --- drivetrain loss [long]
Roger Gerl
wrote:
> > As far as the 80kw figure is concerned, it's basically a
guess.
>
> No, these are the figure we got from measuring the car
on the dyno. The
> cars where pulled up to the max and then the clutch
pressed. The dyno
> recognized this and measured the resistance on the
rolls by taking up
> the energy the e-motors created. 4 cars where dynoed
and all showed
> about the same loss. At my earlier session I got half the
loss on a
> different dyno and this makes me thinking.
Hi
Roger,
Have you talked to both parties to get their explanations of why
each
measured radically different loss values? Apparently, at least
one
shop's measurements are full of errors. I think it would be
worthwhile
to get to the bottom of this.
Thanks for all the good
info,
Ken
- --
Ken Middaugh
General Atomics
San
Diego
(619) 455-4510
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 12:39:53 -0500
From: "Bob Rand" <rtr@vnet.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Vr-4 to
automatic?
Eric, did the car still have AWD.
Bob
-
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Lotter <elotter@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date:
Friday, February 19, 1999 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Vr-4 to
automatic?
>The person seling the car was the second owner, and
did not know if the
>Tranny had been swaped, or if it had come from the
factory that way. He
>knew very little about the car except that the
automatics were very rare
>in the TT class. I just didn't believe the ad
so I had to take a look at
>it.
>
>Very nice car, and a
totally different launch with a brakestand in stead
>of dropping the
clutch.
>
>Some things that makes me think it was a factory
automatic: Same setup
>as the N/A autos, with the PWR button and the Over
drive button
>fuctioning.
>
>Now my theory: I have had
experiences with one time, or special order
>setups from the factory, when
my sister bought her 82 Monte Carlo TURBO,
>to find out it was a Pre-
Grand NAtional, special ordered by a high
>volume Chevy dealer for his
Son, one of only two ever made.
>
>These AUTOMATIC TT 3S cars may
fall into the same catagory, undocumeted
>special cars with VINS that
would match a 5 speed tranny, that
>executives had made for
them.
>
>I have a couple of people digging, but probably won't find
much.
>
>Eric
>
>
>>From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
>>Date: Fri,
19 Feb 1999 07:45:26 -0800
>>To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>>Subject:
Re: Team3S: Vr-4 to automatic?
>>Reply-To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>>
>>Hey
Eric;
>>
>>Was this a new vehicle at the time? Any chance it
had been upgraded to
>an automatic? I
>>know, I know,
whatya mean "upgraded"...however an automatic might seem
>like a good
deal
>>to some experiencing Getrag blues. Didn't know they made them,
but then
>again, didn't
>>know about a speed limiter (if one
exists).
>>
>>Best
>>
>>Darc
>>
>>Eric
Lotter wrote:
>>
>>> I have never heard of the automatic
VR-4, BUT I have seen and test
>>> driven, an AUTOMATIC RT/TT. The
owner was not the original owner, but
>it
>>> lends credence
to the fact that there may have been some factory
>>> AUTOMATICS in
the TT Class.
>>>
>>>
Eric
>>>
>>> >From: Joshua <joshua@princelaw.com>
>>>
>To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
><stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>>>
>Subject: Team3S: Vr-4 to automatic?
>>> >Date: Thu, 18 Feb
1999 17:40:44 -0500
>>> >Reply-To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>>>
>
>>> >I was told that there was in very few numbers produced
vr-4's in
>>> automatic.
>>> >Has anybody else heard
this? I was wondering since all the
>>>
transmission
>>> >seem to go so easily if it might be possible to
put a street strip
>>> >transmission in the car and forget about
Gretag. Any information
>would
>>> be
>>>
>greatly appreciated.
>>> >Thanks
>>>
>Joshua
>>> >3si#0137
>>> >For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>>> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>>>
>>>
______________________________________________________
>>> Get Your
Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>>> For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>>
>>
>>
>>For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>>
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:58:10 PST
From: "Eric Lotter" <elotter@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Vr-4 to automatic?
The one I drove did have
AWD.
>From: "Bob Rand" <rtr@vnet.net>
>To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Subject:
Re: Team3S: Vr-4 to automatic?
>Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 12:39:53
-0500
>Reply-To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
>Eric,
did the car still have
AWD.
>
>Bob
______________________________________________________
Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
For
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------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 19:35:30 +0000
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: dyno tests --- drivetrain loss [long]
> Have you talked to
both parties to get their explanations of why each
> measured radically
different loss values? Apparently, at least one
> shop's
measurements are full of errors. I think it would be worthwhile
> to
get to the bottom of this.
Not to the makers yet but I spoke with other
shops about the typical loss they
found. An Audi S3 therefore had a loss
around 20-25%. I'll definitely
investigate more when I'm back to Europe
:)
- -----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT
TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 12:32:55 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Pistons
I had custom JE pistons made for my '94. The engine is not
back into the
car yet so how they stack up is yet to be determined, but they
should be
fine. The pistons are very similar to the excellent stock
replacements JE
makes.
They weigh in at a little over 400 grams each
IIRC and were all within an
amazingly narrow variance. Stock
compression (8:1) is retained, 93mm bore,
slightly deeper dish and slightly
beefier squish area than the stock Mistus
and stock JE replacements. In
theory this should make them better able to
withstand a little more
detonation. I opted for Speed Pro rings.
The JE pistons are almost
too pretty to put into an engine, but I imagine
any new forged piston would
look that way to me after seeing the
destroyed
stockers.
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
>
> All,
>
> Who has replaced their pistons
with aftermarket units? Which
> brand did you
> go with?
I am in the process of deciding between J&E and Ross. I am
>
leaning towards the Ross pistons. BTW, for those of you that
> have
done this
> swap, are you running a stock replacement or a custom
design?
>
> Thanks
> Matt
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:15:12 EST
From: Dskull@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Intercooler
Article
Just read this article. In part it states that on a Dyno you will
only get one
run before air charge is too hot, which will cause detonation.
The article has
some excellent points to ponder
http://www.autospeed.com/S_technical/section.html
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 21:56:29 +0000
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Intercooler Article
> Just read this article. In part it
states that on a Dyno you will only get one
> run before air charge is too
hot, which will cause detonation. The article has
> some excellent points
to ponder
>
> http://www.autospeed.com/S_technical/section.html
Of
course they are great .... just have a look at their readers rides (I
mean
the 3000GT ):
http://www.autospeed.com/A_0105/P_1/article.html
Greetings
from Switzerland to Australia !
// Roger
-
-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo
(Animale Rosso)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:38:32 EST
From: Klusmanp@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Engine
oil: turbo vs. lifter wear
Can anyone give an opinion as to the effects
of engine oil on turbo vs. lifter
wear and any tradeoffs using one oil vs.
another? I believe I saw a post
suggesting non-synthetic oil for N/A engines
to keep the lifters happy since
N/A engines don't have the high temps the
turbo engines do.
The valve lifters had all been replaced just before I
bought my car and right
now the engine sounds great. My first oil change was
with Mobil 1 synthetic
10W30 as per the wisdom and advice of my mentor and
inspiration, Mr. Dave
Trent. I'll probably continue to use this oil as it is
preferred by most of
the people operating turbo cars - presumably to keep the
turbos healthy.
However, let's suppose for a moment that I am more
concerned with keeping the
lifters healthy - even at the expense of reduced
turbo life. After all, I may
want to upgrade to larger turbos at some point,
anyway - and I'd be more
likely to try replacing a dead turbo myself (stock
or otherwise) than
replacing lifters. Perhaps I can even compensate for
favoring the lifters over
the turbos by giving the turbos a good, long
cool-down after each drive. What
is my preferred oil in this
case?
Paul Klusman
'91 VR4
'80 rusty olds cutlas - no exhaust
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------------------------------
End
of Team3S Digest V1 #105
****************************
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