--
From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
(Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Team3S Digest V1 #97
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
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Team3S Digest Wednesday,
February 10 1999 Volume 01 : Number
097
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:33:41 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Team3S:
Admin Notice
H i Team;
A recent admin meeting was held in
cyberspace. The following ensued.
Personal messages/responses which can
be sent privately are absolutely
encouraged! You may assume from this
that even we ( read I ) in admin
are guilty of such infractions, but we ( I )
are reminded of them in the
same manner in which you may expect to be warned.
The object is to have
a "friendly technical" forum, with an emphasis on the
technical, but not
at the expense of friendship. Everything in
moderation/balence.
Vendor postings are becoming a concern. If they
become a plague,
something "will" be done. So, my advise personally is to be
creative
with your inroads. And, member response to such postings
should
absolutely be done privately and not posted to the list.
As
always, please take time to edit the post you are responding to...do
not
repost the entire post with your response, unless it is
merited.
Best
Darc
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 09 Feb 1999 17:49:29 +0000
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Turbo upgrades - part 2
> Portmasters is (was?) a "partner"
with Brian Lafuente's of GT Alley infamy.
> I do not know if they can
still get you a set of headers or not, might have
> to give them a call
and see. My inclination personally would be to forget
> they
exist...
Portmasters (owned Charlie Hupp, San Dimas, CA) is still an
existing company.
They have been the makers of the products for GT Alley
while this name only was
a virtual company. Even the checks or credit cards
where paid to Portmasters
during their partnership and Brian had his office
in the building from
Portmasters.
Charlie made me a set of the headers
last month, long after the problem with
Brian. But I'm almost sure that they
are somewhat copied from the IMP parts but
with improvements. Brian himself
stated to me that all the parts he offers are
copies but with changes to the
bad designs (who really knows).
> IMP makes headers but quite
frankly they are not as good as one would hope
> or even
expect.
Absolutely the same to the Portmasters headers. Outside great ..
inside crap!
There is a lot work to do until they are good. Price is also
around $1000.
> He makes headers all the time for NA cars.
Also
a shop here does NA headers for reasonable prices. I then went to him
with
the headers and the car and asked him for the price. As both banks are
different
the'll have to make two different designs. Also space is very
limited around the
rear area and therefore easy test-fitting is not possible.
He finally gave me a
quote around $2000 for a full set, maybe cheaper if I
bring another 4 customers
(ouch) und the more I'll bring the less the price
will be.
> It does _appear_ that they will offer better top end
performance, _possibly_
> better spool up, and they should definitely be
better at taking heat away
> from the heads. I have no idea how well
they will hold up though. Time
> will tell on that
one.
Unfortunately, when I'm installing them the big turbos will also
find their way
into the engine bay. Therefore no comparison on the dyno is
possible :(
> The Trust/Greddy stuff and possibly Bozz Speed may be
available if you can
For the price you have to pay you can get a custom
exhaust at the highest
quality built locally. The exhaust doesn't really play
a big rule but the piping
must be 3" and a good muffler is needed. The thing
doesn't help any if you don't
remove the pre-cats.
Good
luck,
Roger
- -----------------------
Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:31:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Admin Notice
OK, but what about multiple postings of "admin
notices"? ;)
Can you discuss more fully (again?) what is and is not
acceptable practice
for business-type posting? I don't want to get
plastered with "for sale"
messages, but I like know what's available.
How are we setting that
balance?
Thanks.
Dennis Moore
stealth@kiva.net
Vital papers will
demonstrate their vitality by moving from where you left
them to where you
can't find them.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 09 Feb 1999 12:42:54 -0500
From: "Theiss, Charles" <charles.theiss@lmco.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Admin Posting
I understand the need to keep personal messages off
the list however there
are a few of us who do little or no posting but gain a
great deal from the
responses to technical questions that are posted by
others. If these
postings become private the majority of us will not
gain the benefit we
recieve from those who are far more
knowledgeable.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 09 Feb 1999 10:32:39 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Admin Notice
Dennis Moore wrote:
> OK, but what about
multiple postings of "admin notices"? ;)
I'd like to be able to say
the double up message was to emphasize the subject
...however, I am uncertain
how it occurred. My time stamp shows both were sent at
exactly the same time,
so it's a mystery. Unintended foopaw!
>
>
> Can you
discuss more fully (again?) what is and is not acceptable practice
> for
business-type posting? I don't want to get plastered with "for
sale"
> messages, but I like know what's available. How are we
setting that
> balance?
"We" in this case, is the group as a
whole...it is a gentleman's (gentle person's)
forum, and we collectively
expect restraint (everything in moderation/nothing in excess)
to be a
consideration that members employ. "IF" for sale signs go up all over the
place,
then action will be taken by the admin...so please reread the rules
and contemplate the
spirit of those rules. We don't like driving police cars
through here and it generally
is not required at all. My Nether Regions
infraction (intended foopaw) is an example
where I should have posted
to Barry privately ...but I just couldn't ... mmm wouldn't
:-) The
spirit here at Team 3S is that of friends helping friends, in a
highly
technical environment. We like it that way and want to keep it that
way, and assume and
hope you do as well. You can contact any of the admin at
the addresses posted a week
back in Bob Forrest's' informative administrative
posting. We in the admin are all
group/team members but occasionally put on a
low profile admin hat to let members know
there is a guiding presence.
Otherwise we're as interested as the next guy in the
topics.
About the
query over personal messages noted in the other recent reponse to the
Admin
Notice: the concern was that information might not be divulged if
private postings are
discouraged. This tech censorship was not the intent of
my notice. We encourage all
exchanges of 3S technical information, including
thanks, and postings of follow up
solutions to problems solved
privately between members. We do not encourage drivel,
fluff, flames, inane
jokes, etc., albeit occasional infractions are overlooked given
the
spirit of the exchange.
Hope this explanation
helps.
Best
Darc (for the 7 admin)
>
>
>
Thanks.
>
> Dennis Moore
> stealth@kiva.net
>
> Vital papers
will demonstrate their vitality by moving from where you left
> them to
where you can't find them.
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:28:48 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Turbo upgrades - part 2
When I said NA I meant normally aspirated cars in
general but not
specifically the 3000/Stealth NA cars. I apologize for
any confusion.
That being said, I don't see why this individual could not
fabricate headers
for an NA 3/S. He would have to have one to play with
for the duration
though. He is located in Phoenix, AZ and being
primarily a Mustang shop 3/S
cars don't show up there much. Mine was
the first.
If you think this is still worth pursuing let me know.
He is a small shop
and is always very busy to the point where he turns away
work. If there is
sufficient interest it may be worth your while to
organize some sort of
group purchase deal with him and see if he'd do it
knowing it isn't just a
one-off. The first set is the set that
costs. Once a jig is set up they
aren't that bad to knock
off.
Regards,
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
>
Barry,
>
> You say your exhaust guy makes
headers all the time for NA
> cars - if this
> means NA 3000GT's,
can you please tell me how I can contact
him.
>
>
Thanks,
>
> SteveC
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:28:19 -0500
From: Brian Danley <bcdmad@concentric.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Fuel pressure, pump (was: Dyno session results !)
>
squeezing a bit more out... you can. That flow rate is at stock rating.
I
> have increased the pressure by about 10 psi. This has
allowed me about
1-2
> more psi of boost after raising the fuel
pressure.
This sounds good ! But can you please describe what exactly you
have done
to the
stock FPR ? Have you replaced it with an adjustable part
?
[Brian Danley] I would give it a try.. can hurt. As for the
stock FPR I
left it in place. I installed a adjustable SX FPR
inline after it. The
stock one will still work (at a lower pressure)
so it kinda is over ridden
by the SX.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:16:04 -0800 (PST)
From: George Kuo <amkreadgto@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Turbo upgrades - part 2 (Trust Offroad Exh)
- ---Wayne <wala@hypertech-inc.com>
wrote:
>
Is the
> Trust/Greddy off road exhaust available? Thanks
everyone....
>
> Wayne
I might be one of very few who
has the Trust/Greddy off-road exhaust.
I custom ordered from Trust Japan
about 3 years back when it was still
available (only in Japan). Last thing I
heard it was discontinued. The
unique thing with this exhaust I found very
interesting was: with 15G
turbos, when at WOT, you don't hear loud exhaust
noise, but a very
high pitched whistle sound; like a plane taking
off...
One bad thing about it is it's not made of stainless
steel..
otherwise, it's a very well made/designed true turbo back
exhaust
system.
George
_________________________________________________________
DO
YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:37:03 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: Team3S: About
the "For Sale" topic (WAS: Admin Notice)
How about a for sale board
at the Team 3S web site?
I have several items I would like to sell.
I am of course not a vendor but
would at least like the ability to let fellow
enthusiasts know what is
available or be able to direct them to a place they
can puruse. A case in
point, I have a For Sale page on my website that
I try and update now and
then. (mumble mumble http://hellsgate.ml.org mumble)
I am
also interested in what other individuals have for sale. If I need
or
want something from a vendor I can seek them out.
So what's the
protocol? May individuals post for sale items on the list?
If not can a
public board be established?
Regards,
Barry
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:42:00 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Turbo upgrades - part 2 (Trust Offroad Exh)
What I think some
enterprising individual should do is make knock offs of
your turbo back
exhaust. I have a $479 Jeg's Borla which I have been happy
with for
over a year (with Alamo DP) but would very much like to have a true
turbo
back solution. There is a minor difference between the 91-92 and
93+
(or maybe 94+) cars regarding the exhaust -- might be the
precats.
Any takers?
Regards,
Barry
>
-----Original Message-----
> ---Wayne <wala@hypertech-inc.com>
wrote:
> >
> Is the
> > Trust/Greddy off road exhaust
available? Thanks everyone....
> >
> >
Wayne
>
>
> I might be one of very few who has the
Trust/Greddy off-road exhaust.
> I custom ordered from Trust Japan about 3
years back when it was still
> available (only in Japan). Last thing I
heard it was discontinued. The
> unique thing with this exhaust I found
very interesting was: with 15G
> turbos, when at WOT, you don't hear loud
exhaust noise, but a very
> high pitched whistle sound; like a plane
taking off...
> One bad thing about it is it's not made of stainless
steel..
> otherwise, it's a very well made/designed true turbo back
exhaust
> system.
>
> George
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:53:50 -0500
From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: About the "For Sale" topic (WAS: Admin Notice)
> How
about a for sale board at the Team 3S web site?
Barry,
You should
get OUT more! http://www.3si.org/classifieds/index.htm
OOPS!
-
-Bob
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 09 Feb 1999 11:58:52 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <middaugh@omega.gat.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: Turbo upgrades - part 2 (Trust Offroad Exh)
> What I think
some enterprising individual should do is make knock offs of
> your turbo
back exhaust. I have a $479 Jeg's Borla which I have been happy
>
with for over a year (with Alamo DP) but would very much like to have a
true
> turbo back solution. There is a minor difference between the
91-92 and 93+
> (or maybe 94+) cars regarding the exhaust -- might be the
precats.
Barry,
Don't you have a turbo-back exhaust? I
thought the Alamo downpipe
eliminates the stock precats. Am I thinking
of another downpipe?
Anyway, Rich (merritt@cedar-rapids.net) posted
yesterday of his
willingness to fabricate an exhaust for us and solicited
input. I too
asked him if he could do a turbo-back system.
Hopefully Rich will have
a reply soon.
- --
Ken
Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:07:49 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Re: Turbo upgrades - part 2 (Trust Offroad Exh)
I don't know of any
American made down pipes that eliminate the precats,
unfortunately. My
exhaust is currently gutted precats, Alamo DP and a Borla
cat back with cat
in place. I am possibly getting precat replacements
fabricated if the
guy I have in mind can/will do it for a decent price.
If Rich can pull
this off that would be super. Then I could post a for sale
advert on
3si.org for my Borla and DP (Thanks Bob -
hehe).
Regards,
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
> Barry,
>
> Don't you have a turbo-back
exhaust? I thought the Alamo downpipe
> eliminates the stock
precats. Am I thinking of another downpipe?
>
> Anyway, Rich
(merritt@cedar-rapids.net) posted
yesterday of his
> willingness to fabricate an exhaust for us and
solicited input. I too
> asked him if he could do a turbo-back
system. Hopefully Rich will have
> a reply soon.
>
>
--
>
> Ken Middaugh
> General Atomics
> San
Diego
> (619) 455-4510
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 09 Feb 1999 21:05:29 +0100
From: Mike Chapleski <mike.chapleski@ibm.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Mixture and Dyno Readings
OK, I will throw my
2 HP in here on the A/F ratio debate. When we had my car on the
dyno
they were able to measure my A/F ratio using some probe they stuck in the
exhaust.
During the first two runs the A/F ratio was not measured.
However, during my third run,
the operator was able to measure it. Keep
in mind that I had just regapped my plugs to
.034 and while the engine was at
operating temperature, it had not been "driven" at that
temperature before
hand. (there was a 3-1/2 hour wait between runs 1 & 2 and run
3). I
did not change my boost controller settings but I was running 13
psi versus the previous
(runs 1 &2) 12 bar. (the operator believed
the higher boost was caused by the car being
cooler than the first
run).
Now Barry believes the optimal figure is 12.5:1
however, the dyno operator seemed to
believe it was more like 11.5:1 in
turboed cars. I have no idea who is right here.
However, for those of
you contemplating which should come first in the upgrade path here
are some
observations.
When I did my first run my HP peaked at
271 kw (420 HP-SAE). I have no explanation
for this except that my
tires were warmer and gripped the rollers better, however, this
HP peak
was at 5930 RPM and started dropping off from there. It was clear that the
ECU
was sensing detonation. On my second run, only five minutes later,
HP peaked at 263 kw
(408HP-SAE). I changed nothing between run 1 &
2. The only thing I did was change my
boost controller (after reaching
5930 RPM) to find the highest HP at 5930 RPM. Turns
out I was already
dialed in (at .85 bar) (remember this is for stock gap of .044). My
EGT was
at 880 C (1616 F). Also, my intake temperatures were the same. (104
F at idle,
peaking to 213 F at max RPM)
After
regapping the boost peaked at 13 psi (.89 bar) however, the performance
at
higher RPMs was different. Peak HP happened at 6230 for 264 kw
(409 HP-SAE), 300 RPMs
higher, but the HP was relatively flat after that, up
to 6700RPM. The EGTs were at 900
C (1652 F). Now you might say
the EGT was a little high, but it did not spike, and the
A/F ratio was 12.7,
which is well with in limits.
So what does this tell
me/you? With my plugs gapped to .044 I was getting
detonation (probably
not because of running out of fuel, but because the spark was
blowing
out) this caused my hp to peak at only 5900 RPM. However, by
regapping my
plugs I was able to "stretch" the peak hp range from a
spike at 5930 to a fairly
consistant (+/- 10 hp) up to 6700 RPM. At
this RPM and 13 psi of boost, I had an A/F
ratio of 12.7. This tells me
that the stock fuel system can handle at least this
level.
I should have done another run at higher psi,
but I was blowing oil out of my oil
dipstick hole and I had scared the crap
out of the operator when one of the IC pipes
blew off the Y-pipe because I
did not tighten it enough after the spark plug regap.
Now you might be concerned by the EGT temp that is 20 C (68 F) higher.
Keep in mind
that this was measured at about 6500 RPM. I do not think
this is caused by the engine
starting to run lean. I am almost sure it
is being caused by backpressure because I
have not gutted the pre-cats
yet. While I am on this, you will see a big difference
between Jim and
my numbers when you get in the 5500+ RPM I seem to have more power
up
here. All three of us (Roger, Jim and I) believe it is a direct
result of my exhaust
(Alamo DP, test pipe, Borla) vs. Jim's stock
setup. Why should you care? Two reasons,
first, if you are drag
racing you are using this RPM segment (5500-7000) quite a bit
which explains
why persons on this list have improved their times with
exhaust
upgrades. Second, if indeed the high EGTs are caused by
backpressure, then it would
reason, that at higher boost (1.0 bar in Jim's
case) that he is running even higher
EGTs. Is this bad? I don't
know the answer to this. But also keep in mind that his
peak hp was
only 2 hp higher than mine and peaked at 550 RPM
sooner.
So this may not answer any questions, but
after reviewing all my data, I wish I had
done a lot of things different
during my dyno runs. However, this was more of a
learning experience
for me anyway and I there will be a next time.
Mike
Chapleski
0018
'95 Stealth RT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:41:45 -0600
From: "Todd D Shelton" <tds@brightok.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Turbo upgrade stages (gets longish)
I've been using IMP headers for about
3 (or 4?) years now.
[It should be noted that by car hasn't been driven much
the
last couple of years though (about 5K miles)]
It's a long story
but IMP originally started selling headers for
S/3K's around 1995. They
did the R&D and had good fit and
finish. This is the type/set I
bought ~ 3 years ago.
Since then IMP stopped selling/having the headers built
by the
vendor they were originally using due to low demand.
Then about
a year ago Chris Dotur(and others) convinced them to
begin building/selling
the turbo headers again. They (IMP) had a
new/different vendor build a
prototype set for Chris and they
didn't fit correctly. After a couple
of more attempts (and a lot of
time, headaches and $ for Chris) they finally
built him a set that was
'adequate' but they are still not the same as mine
(the original build
and original vendor). I'm not sure what IMP
is selling at the current
time and I haven't heard or spoken with anyone
besides Chris that
has bought any within the last couple of
years.
I've had pretty good luck with mine (so far) and have only
experienced
one hairline crack which wasn't even noticed until the headers
were off
of the car and was easily repaired. I'm glad to have them for
use with
the monster turbos but I've had a hard time with the high temp
coatings
I've tried so far. A new 'model' coating will be applied
shortly so perhaps
I'll
have better luck with it than I have the last two
coatings.
The coater says it's been difficult due to the thin walled
stainless
construction. The latest coating has held up well on cast
iron
manifolds and on my O2 housings, turbine housings.
BTW -
these headers are a BITCH to install due to the extreme
inaccessibility to
the header bolts! We had to cut and weld wrenches
at various 'weird'
angles in order to tighten some of the bolts.
- - tds
-
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
--
-----Original Message-----
From: R.G. <robby@swissonline.ch>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Monday, February 08, 1999 1:08 PM
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Turbo upgrade stages (gets
longish)
Ok, I got something like a kit
but nobody can say if it is reliable
(gulp). Todd
Shelton has the same turbos already installed that will find their way
into
my
car but I doubt that he's having aftermarket headers on
too.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:57:43 -0600
From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: Turbo upgrades - part 2 (Trust Offroad Exh)
I also get
that same "whistle" My I actually got a power increase when I
put the
Trust system on my car. The whistle concerns me though. Usually
a
whistle is a sign of restriction. I have not done a back
pressure test.
Hopefully I will after I put the car back together with the
new turbos.
> Brad
Member of ESSC since 1999>
> Check out
my home page: http://lonestar.texas.net/~bbedell
>
E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com
ICQ# 3612682
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]
On Behalf Of Barry E. King
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 2:08 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Re: Turbo upgrades - part 2 (Trust Offroad Exh)
I don't know
of any American made down pipes that eliminate the
precats,
unfortunately. My exhaust is currently gutted precats, Alamo
DP and a Borla
cat back with cat in place. I am possibly getting precat
replacements
fabricated if the guy I have in mind can/will do it for a decent
price.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:12:34 -0500
From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
Subject:
Team3S: CD
Hey Brad,
Did you ever send the parts CD?
-
-Bob
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:11:47 EST
From: Aso8@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Turbo
upgrade stages (Changed to headers)
Differences between IMP & GT
Alley (now Huff) Headers.
Can you guys who have these mention the size of the
inside opening diameters?
Is one larger then the other?
How difficult
would it be to grind/dremmel out the inside diameter of the
stock
headers?
Arty 91 VR-4
In a message dated 2/9/99 12:42:22 PM Pacific
Standard Time, tds@brightok.net
writes:
<<
ve been using IMP headers for about 3 (or 4?) years now.
[It should be
noted that by car hasn't been driven much the
last couple of years
though (about 5K miles)]
It's a long story but IMP originally
started selling headers for
S/3K's around 1995. They did the
R&D and had good fit and
finish. This is the type/set I
bought ~ 3 years ago.
Since then IMP stopped selling/having the headers
built by the
vendor they were originally using due to low
demand.
Then about a year ago Chris Dotur(and others)
convinced them to
begin building/selling the turbo headers again.
They (IMP) had a
new/different vendor build a prototype set for Chris
and they
didn't fit correctly. After a couple of more attempts
(and a lot of
time, headaches and $ for Chris) they finally built him a
set that was
'adequate' but they are still not the same as mine (the
original build
and original vendor). I'm not sure what IMP
is selling at the current
time and I haven't heard or spoken with
anyone besides Chris that
has bought any within the last couple of
years.
>>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 09 Feb 1999 13:32:58 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re:
Team3S: CD
Bob, Brad...
Can either of you, or anyone else who
reveiws the product, post on it, so others can
decide if they want to jump
in?
Thanks
Darc
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:49:53 -0500
From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: CD
The flange holes were not large enough to port match the
exhaust ports on my
heads, and the tubes were even smaller. That meant
that when the exhaust
left the heads, about 35-40% of it would have run into
a metal barrier or
slag. The exhaust in the center of the port would
have had no interference,
but any distance out from the center of the port
would have pulsed back into
the cylinder.
I tried to salvage them by
taking them to a welder to have material added to
the OUTSIDE of the tube
where it joins the flange with the intention of
using an air-driven die
grinder to grind and blend the inside of the tubes
with the flange. The
flange was so thin that they warped from the welds.
By this time, I was up to
$150 in welding costs, not to mention the cost of
the headers
themselves. Fortunately, Chien cut me a MAJOR break on them, so
I
didn't get totally killed on the deal. As it is, the headers are still
at
the welder and I'm not about to go down there and pay for them nor do
I
intend to get into a finger pointing contest with them.
-
-Bob
> Can either of you, or anyone else who reveiws the product,
post
> on it, so others can decide if they want to jump in?
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:50:29 -0500
From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: CD
Sorry,
That was meant to be a private email.
Excuse me.
- -Bob
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:53:50 +0000
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Turbo upgrade stages (Changed to headers)
> Differences
between IMP & GT Alley (now Huff) Headers.
> Can you guys who have
these mention the size of the inside opening diameters?
> Is one larger
then the other?
I currently do not have access to them as they are at the
tig-welding shop. The
flanges openings are the same as the inside diameter
(oval) of the gasket. But
then the pipe's diameter is only the size of the
smalles diameter of the outlet.
The welding is very bad and I'd not trust to
withstand the high pressures/temps
then.
We are now replacing a part
of the piping at the flanges and form a larger pipe
to the exact oval size of
the output. Then the new parts simply go into the
smaller size to provide a
velocity increasing. Although the pipes are still
larger than the hybrids
turbine housing intake, the flange is not good welded
and therefore can
produce more turbulence than wanted !
The stock manifolds can be machined
but this will not give you alot if anything.
The headers I got are completely
other design will different lenghts of the
piping but, unfortunately, they
are made of thin steel and high temperatures are
probably not transported
away that good then.
I know that GT Alley did not made any own
developements but copied other designs
and tried to improve them. IMHO, the
headers are the same as the IMP.
Regards,
Roger
-
-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo
(Animale Rosso)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:24:31 -0600
From: "Todd D Shelton" <tds@brightok.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Turbo upgrade stages (Changed to headers)
Arty, Roger and
others,
I will measure my next time I go down to Dallas
(where my
rebuild is finally being done) - the headers
are off of the car and this is
the best time for me to measure.
I'm almost positive that Brian used my IMP
headers when
he designed/built his since he had my headers in his hands
at
the time. I haven't seen Rogers headers (built by Huff)
but I feel
confident that he used my IMP headers to build
a set for Roger. Roger's
headers were built shortly after
they received my headers (and
motor).
- - tds
-
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: R.G. <robby@swissonline.ch>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 3:56 PM
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Turbo upgrade stages (Changed to
headers)
I know that GT Alley did not made
any own developements but copied other
designs
and
tried to improve them. IMHO, the headers are the same as the
IMP.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:58:45 -0600
From: Todd Schmalzried <q11981@email.mot.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Turbo upgrade stages (Changed to headers)
Speaking of the
rebuild. Is this your 3.0 to 3.5 rebuild?
I know you were going to have
it done, but haven't heard anything else about
it for a while. Is there
anything actually being accomplished? I had heard
someone was looking at
putting a kit together. Is that still going to happen?
Sorry if this touches
a sore spot.
There's no substitute for cubic
inches.
Thanks
Todd
Todd D Shelton wrote:
>
>
Arty, Roger and others,
>
> I will measure my next time I go down
to Dallas
> (where my rebuild is finally being done) - the headers
>
are off of the car and this is the best time for me to measure.
-
--
Todd Schmalzried tschmal@imd.cig.mot.com
Years
ago I discovered the meaning of life.... but forgot to write it down.
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 09 Feb 1999 17:08:06 -0600
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Turbo upgrade stages (Changed to headers)
>
>There's
no substitute for cubic inches.
Except rectangular
dollars.
>
Rich/old poop
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 09 Feb 1999 17:08:06 -0600
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Turbo upgrade stages (Changed to headers)
>
>There's
no substitute for cubic inches.
Except rectangular
dollars.
>
Rich/old poop
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 09 Feb 1999 17:06:04 -0700
From: Ricardo Cousar <rcousar@uswest.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Cost
How much would it cost to upgrade our cars the right way? I was
talking
to a mechanic that builds race cars and he said just to get our cars
up
the 400 horses the right way would cost about 12 grand.
He said
that the turbo's alone would cost about 3 grand. I asked him
to explain
to me why it would cost that much, and he said that the new
ceramic bearing
turbos are the way to go. Then he said you have to match
your intercoolers to
the turbos. Each intercooler would cost about 900
a piece. Then he
said, the engine would have to be redone so you can run
high boost. I asked
him what was high he said a about 30 psi. Then he
said some of the parts
would have to be custom made. I just wanted to
know what you guys think
about this. By the way he only works on
imports, mostly, Audi 's and has
built rally vehicles in Europe, but he
refuses to work on,
Hondas. He says doing this way keep you from
messing things up,
and save you money down the road because you have the
best to begin with. I
have seen some of his work and it is impressive.I
asked him what is the best
car to modify his answer was, Audi he said
you still have the all
wheel drive and you can get audi parts all over
the place, but I think he
partial to them since most of his business
comes from.
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:11:50 -0700
From: "Palamara, Peter" <pala@gwl.com>
Subject: Team3S: Import
shootout in denver
Well I just received notification that bandimeres
import shootout here
in Denver co is going to be held July 25th so mark your
calendars. Also
every Friday night club and cash that used to be hotrods
only, are open
to imports now in their own class. So hopefully we'll see some
good
action this year.
Pete Palamara
92 3000vr-4(GTO)
500 hp of
Fun
(303)689-4733
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Todd D
Shelton [SMTP:tds@brightok.net]
> Sent:
Tuesday, February 09, 1999 3:25 PM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Turbo upgrade stages (Changed to headers)
>
>
Arty, Roger and others,
>
> I will measure my next time I go down
to Dallas
> (where my rebuild is finally being done) - the headers
>
are off of the car and this is the best time for me to measure.
> I'm
almost positive that Brian used my IMP headers when
> he designed/built
his since he had my headers in his hands
> at the time. I haven't
seen Rogers headers (built by Huff)
> but I feel confident that he used my
IMP headers to build
> a set for Roger. Roger's headers were built
shortly after
> they received my headers (and motor).
>
>
> - tds
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>
-----Original Message-----
> From: R.G. <robby@swissonline.ch>
>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>
Date: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 3:56 PM
>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Turbo upgrade stages (Changed to headers)
>
>
>
>
> I know that GT Alley did not
made any own developements but copied
> other
>
designs
> and tried to improve them. IMHO, the
headers are the same as the
> IMP.
>
>
>
> For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:04:28 EST
From: Petrosvr4@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Borla
exhaust
Hi everyone
I have a 93 3K base. Can I put the Borla
,the one for the VR-4, in my car?
Anyone did this?How the car will
run?
Thanx
peter 3SI#126
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:24:12 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Cost
The ceramic turbos are very nice, no doubt. Are they worth the
extra G
note? Dunno. Plain bearing turbos can last a very long
time, produce gobs
of boost and even have decent spoolup.
Regarding
the engine handling 30 psi, as stated previously, other than
pistons I see no
problem with a STOCK engine handling it. The bottom end on
the 3K
engine is outstanding and the block is as beefy as they come. There
is
absolutely no doubt in my mind that the engine when properly prepared
without
exotic parts (other than pistons and good hardware) will handle 600
HP over
the long term. Balancing and proper tolerances are key here so I
think
a rebuild is wise. Forged pistons can be had from JE without
much
trouble.
The heads on the 6G72 flow amazingly well right from the
factory. While
some improvement can be made it isn't much without
increasing valve area.
Even then the typical gains from head work are not
there as you might expect
from stock American heads without quite a bit of
expensive work. As a side
note, my engine builder guy who specializes
in heads, says he has never seen
a head, factory or aftermarket, that flows
as well as the Mitsubishi 6G72.
He works on full race Honda heads and track
only American smallblocks.
Honda has long been recognized as a leader in
cylinder head technology.
Mitsubishi appears to have done their homework in
that regard.
The Audi is a well engineered car, no question.
However, I would like to
see him compare the 6G72 engine with an Audi and see
what he says. Maybe
the Audi is equally well designed and
constructed. i wouldn't be all that
surprised if they were, but he may
be surprised at how beefy a 6G72 is right
from the factory.
12K isn't
far off the mark actually. A good crank up rebuild can run
between
$3-5K (including flowporting and matching etc.), turbos $2-3K,
intercoolers
$1500-2000. Add in electronics and miscelaneous stuff and you
are very
close to 12K. Add dyno time, which would pretty much have to
be
included in the "right" way, and you are easily there.
I suspect
the interest in aftermarket for Audi is probably higher than
Mitsubishi,
especially in Europe, and the prestige is certainly there.
I assume you
meant stock HP plus an additional 400 HP. $12K for an end
result of 400
HP would be a rather huge ripoff, of course, since you can
easily get to 400
HP with simple bolt-ons without even thinking about
engine
internals.
Regards,
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
>
> How much would it cost to upgrade our cars the
right way? I was talking
> to a mechanic that builds race cars and he said
just to get our cars up
> the 400 horses the right way would cost about 12
grand.
> He said that the turbo's alone would cost about 3
grand. I asked him
> to explain to me why it would cost that much, and he
said that the new
> ceramic bearing turbos are the way to go. Then he said
you have to match
> your intercoolers to the turbos. Each intercooler
would cost about 900
> a piece. Then he said, the engine would have
to be redone so you can run
> high boost. I asked him what was high he
said a about 30 psi. Then he
> said some of the parts would have to be
custom made. I just wanted to
> know what you guys think about this.
By the way he only works on
> imports, mostly, Audi 's and has built rally
vehicles in Europe, but he
> refuses to work on, Hondas. He
says doing this way keep you from
> messing things up, and save you money
down the road because you have the
> best to begin with. I have seen some
of his work and it is impressive.I
> asked him what is the best car to
modify his answer was, Audi he said
> you still have the all
wheel drive and you can get audi parts all over
> the place, but I think
he partial to them since most of his business
> comes from.
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:28:39 -0500
From: "Meyer" <meyer2@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Cost
Ricardo,
If you want a true race car the prices you were given
are pretty accurate.
If you want a 400hp street car call me and I will set
you up for under
$2000.
Frank
www.acceleratedaccessories.com
-
-----Original Message-----
From: Ricardo Cousar <rcousar@uswest.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date:
Tuesday, February 09, 1999 7:06 PM
Subject: Team3S: Cost
>How
much would it cost to upgrade our cars the right way? I was talking
>to a
mechanic that builds race cars and he said just to get our cars up
>the
400 horses the right way would cost about 12 grand.
> He said that the
turbo's alone would cost about 3 grand. I asked him
>to explain to
me why it would cost that much, and he said that the new
>ceramic bearing
turbos are the way to go. Then he said you have to match
>your
intercoolers to the turbos. Each intercooler would cost about 900
>a
piece. Then he said, the engine would have to be redone so you can
run
>high boost. I asked him what was high he said a about 30 psi. Then
he
>said some of the parts would have to be custom made. I just
wanted to
>know what you guys think about this. By the way he only works
on
>imports, mostly, Audi 's and has built rally vehicles in Europe, but
he
>refuses to work on, Hondas. He says doing this way keep
you from
>messing things up, and save you money down the road because you
have the
>best to begin with. I have seen some of his work and it is
impressive.I
>asked him what is the best car to modify his answer
was, Audi he said
>you still have the all wheel drive and you can
get audi parts all over
>the place, but I think he partial to them since
most of his business
>comes
from.
>
>
>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:33:46 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Mixture and Dyno Readings
Just a minor point of clarification. I
don't necessarily believe optimal
power is right at 12.5:1 but rather
anywhere in the rather broad range
specified. The exact number depends
on a number of factors and even changes
for a specific engine across the RPM
range.
In general when tuning I try and target 12.5:1 and work either way
from
there since I know 12.5:1 is not only "safe" but also likely fairly
close to
the right setup give or take some tweaking.
I would, however,
argue against the statement that optimal power output is
at 11.5:1 in every
case. It really depends on the engine and operating
environment.
It may well be that 11.5:1 is the case for a modified 3K but
based on my own
tuning I think it is more like 12-12.5:1. Future dyno
sessions would
definitely settle this one for all to
benefit.
Regards,
Barry
<snipped>
>
Now Barry believes the optimal figure is 12.5:1 however, the
> dyno
operator seemed to
> believe it was more like 11.5:1 in turboed
cars. I have no idea
> who is right here.
> However, for those
of you contemplating which should come first
> in the upgrade path
here
> are some observations.
<more good info
snipped>
> Mike Chapleski
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:46:52 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Turbo upgrade stages (Changed to headers)
I don't have my IMP headers
here to measure the tube diameter. The tubes
are round and of course
the exhaust port is oval. On mine the flange is
chamfered such that it
more or less matches the exhaust gasket.
An interesting note from my
engine builder head expert guy is that in his
own words "hates to do that"
when people ask him to match exhaust ports to
header flanges. He says
that while the flow volume will still be there, you
run the risk of losing
exhaust velocity which ultimately hampers maximum
power output. I
believe Corky Bell's "Maxium Boost" book (which I do not
own a copy of so
someone else will have to verify or dispute this) mentions
that smaller tubes
(within reason of course) will maintain higher exhaust
velocity which is
critical to high flow. This is consistent with my
experience with
motorcyle engines -- if the priamries were too big there was
a noticable loss
of power.
Regards,
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of Aso8@aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday,
February 09, 1999 2:12 PM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
Cc: Aso8@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S:
Turbo upgrade stages (Changed to headers)
>
>
> Differences
between IMP & GT Alley (now Huff) Headers.
> Can you guys who have
these mention the size of the inside
> opening diameters?
> Is one
larger then the other?
> How difficult would it be to grind/dremmel out
the inside diameter of the
> stock headers?
> Arty 91
VR-4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:54:56 -0800
From: "Bill" <compren@lightspeed.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Brakes
Ok, after 30k miles the brakes are starting to
go...
Do I just replace them with stock again or is it time for an
upgrade?
Pros and cons of each way?
- -Thanks
-
-Bill
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:58:17 -0500
From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Turbo upgrade stages (Changed to headers)
I'm sorry Barry,
but you have made your point. The fact that you agree with
something
that Corky Bell mentions in Maximum Boost about small exhaust
tubes
contributing to higher velocity misses the point. Our discussion
is
about header flanges and the need to blend with the individual
tubes. I
think we all understand that we need a funnel effect in the
exhaust line
just before the turbine wheel. But we also don't want a
lip (or ledge)
sitting just outside the exhaust port which causes each
exhaust "putt" to
echo back into the combustion chamber.
-
-Bob
> An interesting note from my engine builder head expert guy is
that in his
> own words "hates to do that" when people ask him to match
exhaust ports to
> header flanges. He says that while the flow
volume will still be
> there, you run the risk of losing exhaust velocity
which ultimately
hampers
> maximum power output. I believe Corky
Bell's "Maxium Boost" book (which I
do not
> own a copy of so someone
else will have to verify or dispute
> this) mentions
> that smaller
tubes (within reason of course) will maintain higher exhaust
> velocity
which is critical to high flow. This is consistent with my
>
experience with motorcyle engines -- if the priamries were too
> big there
was
> a noticable loss of power.
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 21:37:05 -0500
From: "Dennis Moore" <stealth@kiva.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Brakes
Can you describe "starting to go"? As I mentioned last week,
I've got over
100k miles on my original brakes, and they're still there
everytime I need
them. I do very little city driving, and haven't tried
autocross or such,
so I don't put as much wear-n-tear on brakes as others do,
but 30k sounds
way low.
If all you do is street driving, I'd stick
with OEM. But if you're a racer,
you'll probably need to upgrade: for
advice on that decision, I'll defer to
those more knowledgable than
me.
Dennis
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bill <compren@lightspeed.net>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date:
Tuesday, February 09, 1999 8:53 PM
Subject: Team3S: Brakes
>Ok,
after 30k miles the brakes are starting to go...
>
>Do I just
replace them with stock again or is it time for an upgrade?
>
>Pros
and cons of each
way?
>
>-Thanks
>
>-Bill
>
>
>
>For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 09 Feb 1999 19:33:46 PST
From: "Nathan Crisman" <spyder_talon@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: 14b on a stealth TT
hi guys
I was told by someone on the
talon/eclipse list that 14B's from a 1G DSM
manual will fit in a
stealth. As you might know Im looking for a set of
turbo's for my
stealth, and 14b's are a lot easier to find than
3000/stealth turbo's.
If anyone has done this, or knows for a fact that
it will or will not
work...let me know...list might want to knw abit
too.
Nathan
Crman
______________________________________________________
Get Your
Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 9 Feb 1999 22:12:34 -0600
From: "Jeff" <jw461@nstar.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
14b on a stealth TT
I have already researched this. The conclusion
that I came to and all those
whom I had asked is that making it work isn't
worth it. The housings are
too different and would not directly bolt up
(or even be close). I ended up
just buying some
15G's.
jeff
'95 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 Spyder
'90 Mitsubishi
Eclipse GSX
- -----Original Message-----
From: Nathan Crisman <spyder_talon@hotmail.com>
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date:
Tuesday, February 09, 1999 9:44 PM
Subject: Team3S: 14b on a stealth
TT
>hi guys
>I was told by someone on the talon/eclipse list
that 14B's from a 1G DSM
>manual will fit in a stealth. As you might
know Im looking for a set of
>turbo's for my stealth, and 14b's are a lot
easier to find than
>3000/stealth turbo's. If anyone has done this,
or knows for a fact that
>it will or will not work...let me know...list
might want to knw abit
>too.
>Nathan
Crman
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get
Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 09 Feb 1999 23:24:34 -0600
From: xwing <xwing@execpc.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Re: Fuelcut; Injector Flow
R.G. wrote: [snips]
> > I was
having ?light detonation or light fuel cut above 1 bar 5000rpm.
>
there is no "light" fuel cut. Fuel cut you'll bite
> steering wheel when
it kicks in. detonation cannot be heard in that
> area; what you
felt was hesitation by retarded timing.
> On dyno, A/F ratio good enough,
IDC came to 99%
> IMHO, increasing fuel pressure does not mean you'll
increase
> flow rate. They flow 360cc fully open, that's
it.
Actually there may be a light fuelcut...in DSM List posts, Todd Day
went
into the basis for 'light' fuelcuts, but not in my memory
exactly...
Increased fuel pressure WILL increase effective injector
output per
minute. Raising delta P across the injector (fuelside to
manifold
side...fuel pressure - manifold pressure = change in pressure across
the
injector) will increase fuel delivery per unit time open.
If at 0 pressure differential, will obviously get NO flow.
If at
43psi differential will get
360cc/minute.
If at 86psi differential
will get (360 X 2) X correction factor
for turbulence/entropy/Reynolds Number
exceeded (or some such Physics
deal :) so end up with 509cc, not
the 720cc the pressure double
suggests on its face.
I checked my RC
Engineering factoid sheet and they (misprint I think)
the formula, I think
actual is thus:
To find fuelflow change from fuelpressure change take:
square root of
(New psi/Old psi) X Old Flow = New Flow.
More realistic
would be going from 43 to 60psi, would get 425cc/min out
of "360cc"
injectors.
Jack Tertadian
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:31:49 -0700
From: "Dan Kiehl" <dkiehl@netmdc.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Cost
hes full of shit.. i think for under $2000 you can get the
car up to 400hp..
$12,000 would get you 600hp
CYa,
Dan 92 RT
TT
- -----Original Message-----
From: Ricardo Cousar <rcousar@uswest.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date:
Tuesday, February 09, 1999 5:18 PM
Subject: Team3S: Cost
>How
much would it cost to upgrade our cars the right way? I was talking
>to a
mechanic that builds race cars and he said just to get our cars up
>the
400 horses the right way would cost about 12 grand.
> He said that the
turbo's alone would cost about 3 grand. I asked him
>to explain to
me why it would cost that much, and he said that the new
>ceramic bearing
turbos are the way to go. Then he said you have to match
>your
intercoolers to the turbos. Each intercooler would cost about 900
>a
piece. Then he said, the engine would have to be redone so you can
run
>high boost. I asked him what was high he said a about 30 psi. Then
he
>said some of the parts would have to be custom made. I just
wanted to
>know what you guys think about this. By the way he only works
on
>imports, mostly, Audi 's and has built rally vehicles in Europe, but
he
>refuses to work on, Hondas. He says doing this way keep
you from
>messing things up, and save you money down the road because you
have the
>best to begin with. I have seen some of his work and it is
impressive.I
>asked him what is the best car to modify his answer
was, Audi he said
>you still have the all wheel drive and you can
get audi parts all over
>the place, but I think he partial to them since
most of his business
>comes
from.
>
>
>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:55:43 +0000
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Cost
> hes full of shit..
Moderator message : We don't
use these phrases here, Thanks !
> i think for under $2000 you can get
the car up to 400hp..
> $12,000 would get you 600hp
The dyno sheets
from Jim are proving that with only a boost controller for $500
and a FIPK
$150 you're in the 400hp SAE region with 1.00bars of boost ! This is
Stage 1
upgrade and doesn't need any other upgrades.
For $2000 you have $1350
left for other things like fuel pump $400, injectors
$540, AFC $360 and AFPR
$100. This is Stage 2 and will push you into the 450hp
SAE region with 1.1
bars. I'd also consider a good EGT meter $200 for proper
tuning.
The
next steps to Stage 3 are more expensive and especially the labour will
take
more time. A good set of turbos like 15Gs (dunno the price but over
$2500 for
sure), downpipe $350, gutting the precats, cat-back $550 and some
big headache
for the work.
At this point you also want to lower intake
temperatures and my consider an
intercooler upgrade for $1500 and up. As
boost is crancked up the fuel must have
more octane or your engine will have
a lot detonation. You can also get a water
injection kit for $500 - $1000 to
achieve a knock resistance with 93 fuel up to
160 octanes !
All these
engine-wise mods will push you into the 500hp - 550hp region for about
and
will be able to brake your tranny or your neck. Also consider big brakes
and
heavy clutches for some more grands. here we are in the $10k-$12k region
for
such a setup and it doesn't end. Finally you can fiddle with the
exhaust
manifold, larger turbines, the heads and cams, fuel rail, fuel lines,
pistons
(you can do this the same time when the engine is gone anyway the
first time)
stronger rods and much more. You'll end in the 650hp region with
these and you
can give em a 150hp nitrous shot to achieve the wishfull 700hp
! I'm sure you
can easily go to 20k of costs without any labour
!!!
Just ask Todd what he already spent on his large project and don't
forget that
you're always in a danger to get screwed and you'll loose some
money with a bad
job of someone !
Finally, Stage 1 400hp costs you
$650, Stage 2 450hp around $2000. This gives
something like an exponential
curve cost against hp achieved :) Your wallet
finally decides where to
go.
Regards,
Roger
- -----------------------
Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor
wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,HKS SBOV,
ATR DP/ tespipe,Borla
Cat-back,OZ Mito2 rims,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,
Bremsa brakes,Pagid
RS-R pads
Check out: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/3000gt.html
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:05:20 +0000
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Turbo upgrade stages (Changed to headers)
> Our discussion is
about header flanges and the need to blend with the
> individual
tubes. I think we all understand that we need a funnel effect
> in
the exhaust line just before the turbine wheel. But we also don't want
a
> lip (or ledge) sitting just outside the exhaust port which causes
each
> exhaust "putt" to echo back into the combustion chamber.
The
GT Alley / Portmasters headers are made pretty bad. Just think of having
a
pipe that is as large as the smallest diameter of the oval port and it just
fits
it. Then you have a gap on each side that was just welded up. Of course
this
increases velocity but at the wrong place. Directly at the flange this
produces
turbulences and therefore unwanted backpressure (or just too much of
it). That's
why we cut about 1.5 iches away and replace the tubing with a
larger diameter to
be able to provide a perfect port matching. Then it is
welded onto the smaller
diameter providing a smooth inside for the desired
funnel effect. The same with
the turbo flange. The tubes come together right
before it but the final tube is
too big and the flange then is something like
a big restriction causing more
turbulences.
You see, a lot of work
must be done to the headers :(
Regards,
Roger
-
-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo
(Animale Rosso)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:41:54 +0100
From: Mike Chapleski <mike.chapleski@ibm.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Re: Fuelcut; Injector Flow
If I read this correctly you
really do not have to pay $600+ for new injectors? Just
buy a new FPR
and fuel pump, then crank up the psi.
Mike
0018
'95 Stealth RT
TT
xwing wrote:
> R.G. wrote: [snips]
> > > I was
having ?light detonation or light fuel cut above 1 bar 5000rpm.
>
>
> there is no "light" fuel cut. Fuel cut you'll bite
> > steering
wheel when it kicks in. detonation cannot be heard in that
> >
area; what you felt was hesitation by retarded timing.
> > On dyno, A/F
ratio good enough, IDC came to 99%
> > IMHO, increasing fuel pressure
does not mean you'll increase
> > flow rate. They flow 360cc
fully open, that's it.
>
> Actually there may be a light
fuelcut...in DSM List posts, Todd Day went
> into the basis for 'light'
fuelcuts, but not in my memory exactly...
>
> Increased fuel
pressure WILL increase effective injector output per
> minute.
Raising delta P across the injector (fuelside to manifold
> side...fuel
pressure - manifold pressure = change in pressure across the
> injector)
will increase fuel delivery per unit time open.
>
> If at 0 pressure
differential, will obviously get NO flow.
> If at 43psi
differential will get
360cc/minute.
> If at 86psi
differential will get (360 X 2) X correction
factor
> for turbulence/entropy/Reynolds Number exceeded (or some such
Physics
> deal :) so end up with 509cc, not the 720cc the
pressure double
> suggests on its face.
>
> I checked my RC
Engineering factoid sheet and they (misprint I think)
> the formula, I
think actual is thus:
>
> To find fuelflow change from fuelpressure
change take: square root of
> (New psi/Old psi) X Old Flow = New
Flow.
>
> More realistic would be going from 43 to 60psi, would get
425cc/min out
> of "360cc" injectors.
>
> Jack
Tertadian
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:41:57 +0100
From: Mike Chapleski <mike.chapleski@ibm.net>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Turbo upgrade stages (Changed to headers)
I saw a set of the
IMP headers at Nexus in December and a set of the Portmaster ones at
Roger's
last week. Now keep in mind that I only looked at them of five minutes
each
time, but:
1) The quality of welding for both sucks.
There was too much left over weld material.
If it is possible, I think these
headers should be extrude/honed after grinding smooth.
2) On both
units I thought the reduction from the oval head opening to the round
pipe
was a less efficient design than the stock setup. I have no idea
how you could improve
this.
3) The diameter of the pipes was
bigger on the Portmasters headers. Not sure if this
helps
any.
4) The Portmaster header did not match the pipe length of the
middle pipe to the other
two. However, I believe the IMP, through a
very convoluted twist, did match the length.
Mike C,
0018
'95
Stealth RT TT
Todd D Shelton wrote:
> Arty, Roger and
others,
>
> I will measure my next time I go down to Dallas
>
(where my rebuild is finally being done) - the headers
> are off of the
car and this is the best time for me to measure.
> I'm almost positive
that Brian used my IMP headers when
> he designed/built his since he had
my headers in his hands
> at the time. I haven't seen Rogers headers
(built by Huff)
> but I feel confident that he used my IMP headers to
build
> a set for Roger. Roger's headers were built shortly
after
> they received my headers (and motor).
>
> -
tds
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>
-----Original Message-----
> From: R.G. <robby@swissonline.ch>
>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>
Date: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 3:56 PM
>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Turbo upgrade stages (Changed to
headers)
>
> I know that GT Alley did not
made any own developements but copied other
>
designs
> and tried to improve them. IMHO, the
headers are the same as the IMP.
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:25:23 EST
From: Aso8@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Turbo
upgrade stages (Changed to headers)
How about an alternative of
Extrude/honed the stock headers? Can we get a
comparative guess of the
results vs. IMP & Huff headers. These alternative
headers don't appear
worth the high cost?
Arty 91 VR-4
In a message dated 2/10/99 4:44:23
AM Eastern Standard Time,
mike.chapleski@ibm.net
writes:
<< Subj: Re: Team3S: Turbo upgrade stages (Changed to
headers)
Date: 2/10/99 4:44:23 AM Eastern Standard Time
From:
mike.chapleski@ibm.net (Mike
Chapleski)
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Reply-to:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
I
saw a set of the IMP headers at Nexus in December and a set of the
Portmaster
ones at
Roger's last week. Now keep in mind that I only looked at
them of five
minutes each
time, but:
1) The
quality of welding for both sucks. There was too much left over
weld
material.
If it is possible, I think these headers should be
extrude/honed after
grinding smooth.
2) On both
units I thought the reduction from the oval head opening to the
round
pipe
was a less efficient design than the stock setup. I have no
idea how you
could improve
this.
3) The
diameter of the pipes was bigger on the Portmasters headers. Not
sure
if this
helps any.
4) The Portmaster header
did not match the pipe length of the middle pipe to
the
other
two. However, I believe the IMP, through a very convoluted
twist, did match
the length.
Mike
C,
0018
'95 Stealth RT TT
>>
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:38:00 -0500
From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Turbo upgrade stages (Changed to headers)
Arty,
I used
a pneumatic die grinder and some carbide bits available at tool
stores (such
as ToolTown) to port match the manifolds. Extrudehoning for
the
purposes of smoothing the surface will not help much, but if you can
remove
some material it might. I agree that the headers aren't worth
the
hassle or cost.
- -Bob
> How about an alternative of
Extrude/honed the stock headers? Can we get a
> comparative guess of the
results vs. IMP & Huff headers. These alternative
> headers don't
appear worth the high cost?
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:48:57 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Re: Fuelcut; Injector Flow
No, at least not as a general
rule. You can adjust flow rate within a small
practical range for a
given set of injectors as Jack mentions -
> > More realistic would
be going from 43 to 60psi, would get 425cc/min out
> > of "360cc"
injectors.
At some pressure the injectors will no longer close completely
at short
pulse widths (high IDC) which leaves fuel dribbling into the
intake. They
may also refuse to open at all. It depends on the
physical condition of the
injector and the style of the valve, pintle or
disc. It has been rumored
that this pressure is 80-90 psi for a Lucas
type disc injector, and as low
as 60-65 psi for some pintle designs. A
general rule would be anything
above 70 psi is hitting a point of diminishing
returns.
Some cautions of running very high fuel pressure would be that
excessive
pressure can cause premature failure of the injector. Disc
valve injectors
are supposedly more rugged in this regard and will handle
more pressure
reliably. The stock fuel lines may not be up to that
pressure and may burst
or those cheesy little stock clamps may pop off.
It is also hard on the
fuel pump if it is not chosen carefully.
As
Jack points out, the delivery rate is not linear. The amount of
flow
varies less as pressure increases. Cranking up the fuel pressure
to 90 psi
on a set of stock 365cc injectors rather than opting for 550s is
likely not
a good idea. You might be able to squeeze 700-720
performance out of a set
of 550s though.
A generally accepted formula
for approximation of the flow is:
F = sqrt(Pf / Pi) * Fi
where F
is the resulting flow, Fi is the injector rated flow, Pf is the
actual
pressure and Pi is the pressure at the injector's rated flow.
A fuel pump
designed to operate reliably at 70-90 psi for extended periods
of time is
also pricey. I suppose short bursts now and then might be okay,
but
fuel pump flow drops off in a non-linear fashion as pressure increases.
At
some pressure for a given pump flow will actually begin to
decrease.
Manufacturers usually rate a pump's flow at a given psi, usually 43
psi.
What we really need to know is the flow rate at the rail pressure you
plan
to run. There is no general formula for that since it is dependant
on the
design of the pump itself.
Barry
> ---
Original Message
>
> If I read this correctly you really do not have
to pay $600+ for new
> injectors? Just buy a new FPR and fuel pump,
then crank up the psi.
> Mike
> 0018
> '95 Stealth RT
TT
> --- Portions of Jack's Message
>
> >
Increased fuel pressure WILL increase effective injector output per
> >
minute. Raising delta P across the injector (fuelside to manifold
>
> side...fuel pressure - manifold pressure = change in pressure across
the
> > injector) will increase fuel delivery per unit time
open.
> >
> > If at 0 pressure differential, will obviously
get NO flow.
> > If at 43psi
differential will get
360cc/minute.
> > If at 86psi
differential will get (360 X 2) X correction
factor
> > for turbulence/entropy/Reynolds Number exceeded (or some
such Physics
> > deal :) so end up with 509cc, not the
720cc the pressure double
> > suggests on its face.
>
>
> > I checked my RC Engineering factoid sheet and they (misprint I
think)
> > the formula, I think actual is thus:
> >
>
> To find fuelflow change from fuelpressure change take: square root
of
> > (New psi/Old psi) X Old Flow = New Flow.
> >
>
> More realistic would be going from 43 to 60psi, would get 425cc/min
out
> > of "360cc" injectors.
> >
> > Jack
Tertadian
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:20:44 EST
From: Aso8@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Cosmos fuel pump
(Mfg's tel # ?)
I need to locate the web site or tel. number for my
Cosmos fuel pump.
If anybody has this info, please advise.
Thanks. Arty 91
VR-4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:53:23 -0000
From: "Dan Kiehl" <dkiehl@netmdc.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Boost Question
What boost controller do you run?
Are there any complaints of the blitz street
spec?
CYa,
Dan 92 RT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:55:58 +0000
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Re: Fuelcut; Injector Flow
> If I read this correctly
you really do not have to pay $600+ for new injectors? Just
> buy a
new FPR and fuel pump, then crank up the psi.
Therefore the market for
bigger injectors is gone, LOL. Increasing the fuel
pressure a little is good
to tune in the system but double the fuel pressure to
get out 720cc of 360cc
is physically inpossible !
The explanation comes close to the volume and
power of a stereo amplifier.
People think that double the power gives you
twice the volume of the sound. This
is wrong because it only gives you about
50% more and for a real double in dB
you need 10 times the power. Another
explanation is the air resistance against
speed. Lets say the resistance at
100km/h is A (just for explanation) then at
200km/h the resistance is not 2*A
but it is A^2 (EXP).
In fluids this is not exactly the same as the
resistance is different but it is
close for about 2-4% for an explanation
compare to air resistance. Now if you
want 720cc/minute out of 360cc you have
to increase the 40psi to ... 1600psi ..
a little bit too high for the whole
system :) In fuel a typical raise of 2 times
the fuel pressure gives you
about 1.35 x flow. Therefore double the fuel
pressure from 40psi to 80psi
with 360cc you'll get virtually 486cc (428cc in
normal fluid) injectors. But
even double the pressure cannot (or should not )
rised to double as the spray
pattern of the injectors are changing to the bad
side and they cannot act
well then (not opening/closing fully)
Cranking up the fuel pressure by
about 15 psi helps as the pattern is still on
the good side and the flow is
getting better even with bigger injectors. As our
stock pressure is 43.5psi
(at least EU) setting it to 58psi means to get a max
flow of about 400cc per
minute.
Last but not least the fuel pump is a problem as it can provide a
high flow
level or a high pressure but not really both. A Porsche guy in
Switzerland ended
in three fuel pumps and, of course, they are expensive
too.
If my physics are not too old then I think it's still a good idea to
get at
least 550cc as an upgrade :) To bad as just increasing the fuel
pressure would
be a nice idea but we still cannot tweak Mr Newton. Also the
system learns and
over short or long the fuel pressure is adjusted back with
the feedback of the
O2 sensors.
Regards,
Roger
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:00:59 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Cosmos fuel pump (Mfg's tel # ?)
The pump is made by Denso, formerly
Nippon Denso. Cosmo is a model of Mazda
sold in Japan.
Hope that
helps.
Barry
> -----Original Message-----
>
> I
need to locate the web site or tel. number for my Cosmos fuel pump.
> If
anybody has this info, please advise.
> Thanks. Arty 91 VR-4
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:36:13 -0500
From: "Meyer" <meyer2@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Boost Question
Dan,
We run the HKS EVC IV $520 w install kit. It is
very accurate and
dependable. It was installed prior to the Blitz and
Apex~i becoming
available. I think they are just as good for less money
than the HKS. We
also tried the Profec B but did not like it. We
are running a special on
the Blitz DSBC but the list rules prevent me from
posting the price. Email
privately if interested.
Thanks,
Frank
www.acceleratedaccessories.com
-
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Kiehl <dkiehl@netmdc.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date:
Wednesday, February 10, 1999 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Boost
Question
>What boost controller do you run?
>
>Are
there any complaints of the blitz street
spec?
>
>
>CYa,
> Dan 92 RT TT
>
>For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
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of Team3S Digest V1 #97
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