--
From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
(Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Team3S Digest V1 #93
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Errors-To:
owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Precedence:
bulk
Team3S Digest
Saturday, February 6 1999 Volume 01 :
Number
093
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 10:48:02 +0000
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Mods and True gains - getting long
Arty,
The
McLaren-Mercedes Formula 1 car uses a huge K&N filter element as others
do
in Nascar and Rally Racing. Especially the last is the worst environment
and
AFAIK I never heard of an engine that died due to the sand comming into
the
intake. The more they had problems with the trannies or broken
intercoolers.
I do more clean and reoil the filter just to make sure real
good filteration.
- -----------------------
Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 12:53:41 +0000
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject:
Team3S: Dyno session results !
Ok guys ! As announced, the list members
Jim Matthews, Mike Chapleski and Roger
Gerl had a little 3-car gathering last
Monday in Zurich/Switzerland where we
spent some hours on a dyno.
We
scanned the different slips in and corrected the scales to be able to
provide
a good comparison. Please be patient as the figures are showing kW
for power and
Nm for torque and I haven't had the time to redo the sheets
with SAE hp and
lbs-ft for the torque. I'll try to do them over the weekend
:)
The outcome was very interesting and finally we learned some important
things.
Here I just summarize a few things up and for more information just
go to Jims
or my homepage for more detailed information.
Here the main
figures:
- - Jims 94'Stealth : 406hp @ 5680 (SAE
corr.) 354 lb-ft @ 5180
- - Mike's 95'Stealth : 403hp @ 6230 (SAE
corr.) 331 lb-ft @ 5210
- - Roger's 93'3000GT : 402hp @ 5450 (SAE
corr.) 371 lb-ft @ 47601
The torque figure from Mike is too
low as he only boosted up to 0.89 bar
(12.9psi) while Jim and me both saw
1.00 bar (14.5psi). Also my curve ended
earlier as the winter tires started
to slip and I runned into the danger to
damage them on the dyno. Therefore I
expect some differences on the next session
in about a week.
With the
different mods (look at the table on my homepage) the following can be
said
:
We all have the stock fuel system and the timing got retarded when
trying to
increase boost over 1.00bar ! The IDC measured on Jims car showed
more than 95%
then and the A/F Ratio was not too rich but in the safe area.
This is definitely
the weak part on our cars and if you plan to go over 400hp
upgrades to the fuel
system is the first mod you have to do !!!
Jims
car had the best power with the stock exhaust system ! It doesn't give
you
any hp nor torque to add a DP, insert a testpipe or add a cat-back. They
will
only make sense when the precats are removed and are only a waste in
money if
you don't do anything against the detonation on boosts over 14.5psi
!
On the dyno spooling up the turbos is not important but it is on the
street.
There a dp can help as the turbos will spool up more free. But again,
only after
getting rid off the pre-cats will give you a major free-up in the
exhaust part.
The exhaust is the main difference between Mikes and Jims
car. On the sheets we
can see that the whole power curve is shifted to the
higher rpm area. But there
is also a loss in torque on the low-rpm. With the
same amount of boost as on our
cars the curve will be very close to Jims car
but the characteristic is still
lower around 3000.
On my 3000GT with
the stock 13G turbos the power curve is better in the lower
rpm area while
the torque made a big jump around the 4500 area. This is
definitely due to
the 13G turbos but they don't help you to give you any more
horses in the top
end ! The dyno proves this as Jims and my car where measured
within a half an
hour with the same ambient temperatures. I also have about the
same exhaust
mods as Mike but the power curve is shifted back the rpm due to the
bigger
turbos.
Mike brought a thermocouple with and we were able to measure the
intake
temperature in the y-pipe. Jims and Mikes Stealth had both readings
around the
104°C range while my 3000GT showed a peak of 93.4°C. The fan
wasn't that big on
the dyno but with the hood open it compensates the lack of
intercooling. The
lower temperature could be due to the bigger turbos again
or the better duct in
the front fascia. As Jim and I runned the same boost
the theory says that the
bigger compressor wheel doesn't heat up the air so
much like the 9B do. Makes
sense !
Last but not least, Mikes car
showed the best hp peak on his first run but the
curve peak alerted us as it
seemed that he runned into retarded timing. While
the others where on the
dyno he was able to regap his plugs as they where gapped
around 0.04x". He
choose a gap of 0.034" as Jim and I have and the run
afterwards did not show
any retard then. With cranking up boost again to our
level Mike for sure had
seen better torque figures then. But it was better to
stop for him as the oil
temp probe always was pushed out like mine did before
the rebuild
!
I'll add my next run after tuning in the AFC as well.
Visit the
dyno pages under :
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/3000gt.html
and
Jims homepage under :
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Regards,
Roger
-
-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo
(Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi
AFC,SBOV,ATR DP/cat,
Borla,OZ Mito2,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,Bremsa
brakes,Pagid RS-R pads
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:41:38 -0500
From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Dyno session results !
Roger, Jim, Mike:
Nice work on
the dyno testing. I look forward to seeing the results when
injectors
and fuel pump are added.
- -Bob
> Visit the dyno pages under
:
> http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/3000gt.html
>
and Jims homepage under :
> http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 07:52:59 -0500
From: "Theiss, Charles" <charles.theiss@lmco.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Dyno results
Thanks for the update Roger. I found it
interesting that there appears to
be a loss of about 30% in HP from the
flywheel to the wheels. I always
thought that it was more like a 20%
loss. Have you or Mike ever tested your
HP using the G-Tech and if so
how close to those results were the dyno
numbers? I know the 0-60 and
the 1/4 times are fairly accurate but have no
way of verifying the HP.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:18:58 -0500
From: "Marc Spinale" <mspinale@mediaone.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Best kept secret?
It's come to my attention that Jegs may
have discontinued the line. I knew
it was too good to be
true...
marc
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of Bill
> Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 3:14 AM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Best kept secret?
>
>
> That's where I
got mine, no one else was close, I had to know the part #
> though because
they didn't have a clue.
>
> Believe the guys from Nexus sent me
there when they didn't have it...
>
>
-Bill
>
>
>
> >After much research, I picked up a
Borla cat back system a few months ago
> >for my 93 VR4 -- only $479.
$486 at my door. This was by far the best
> price
>
>
>It was purchased from Jeg's High Performance - 800-345-4545.
>
>
> >http://webstore.jegs.com/cgi-bin/Jegs1.storefront/1490032616/Home?JEG's
>
>
>
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:25:47 EST
From: Lomcevak@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Lost
Mits tech number...
If anyone knows the phone number for
Mitsubishi technical assistance, would
you
please post it.
Thanks,
SteveC
'91
3000GT SL
Lomcevak@aol.com
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:38:12 EST
From: Lomcevak@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: DOHC
rocker arm ques.
In a message dated 99-02-02 23:20:23 EST, you
write:
<< Steve;
Don't know if anyone got back
to you on your query...hopefully someone posted
privately. If that
occurs, please note it here.
My educated guess is somewhat in
synch with what you surmise...possibly a
mixing
of numbers in
reassembly. There's a 50% chance this is right. Mayhap we'll
get
an
educated response now, to educated guessing
:-)
Good luck >>
Have
not posted anything due to no new info on it. I have measured every
possible
angle, distance, ect and see no difference in the rockers regardless
of
number stamped on them. Note that these are used rockers - so I cannot
be
sure of the original dimensions.
Either way, I
still have not been able to get the forward exhaust cam in
properly - always
get to much binding or friction. It is holding up the entire
project at this
point.
Im going to try my last resort, calling the mits
tech folks - just to
ensure that they have no idea as well
<G>.
Now if I can just find that
number...........
SteveC
'91
3000GT SL
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:00:23 -0500
From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: DOHC rocker arm ques.
For what it's worth, the cam bearing
caps are numbered. Intakes are stamped
I2, I3, I4 and have an arrow
that indicates which way they face. Same thing
with exhaust caps.
You must match the arrows on each cap, including the
ones on each end of the
cams with the arrows stamped on the casting of the
cylinder head. If my
memory is correct, the arrows on each head face
opposite
directions.
Anyway, it is important not to mix the bearing caps up or
your cams will
bind up.
Here is how they go:
Front
of motor
EE II
II EE <- end caps
E2
I2 I2 E2
E3
I3 I3 E3
E4
I4 I4 I4
EE
II II EE <- end
caps
Rear of motor
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of
> Lomcevak@aol.com
>
Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 8:38 AM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
Subject: Re: Team3S: DOHC rocker arm ques.
>
>
> In a message
dated 99-02-02 23:20:23 EST, you write:
>
> <<
Steve;
>
> Don't know if anyone got back to you on your
query...hopefully
> someone posted
> privately. If that
occurs, please note it here.
>
> My educated guess is somewhat
in synch with what you surmise...possibly a
> mixing
> of
numbers in reassembly. There's a 50% chance this is right.
> Mayhap
we'll
> get an
> educated response now, to
educated guessing :-)
>
> Good luck
>>
>
> Have not posted anything
due to no new info on it. I have
> measured every
> possible angle,
distance, ect and see no difference in the
> rockers regardless
> of
number stamped on them. Note that these are used rockers - so
> I cannot
be
> sure of the original
dimensions.
> Either way, I still have not
been able to get the forward
> exhaust cam in
> properly - always
get to much binding or friction. It is holding
> up the entire
>
project at this point.
> Im going to try my last
resort, calling the mits tech folks - just to
> ensure that they have no
idea as well <G>.
>
> Now if I can
just find that number...........
>
>
SteveC
> '91 3000GT SL
>
> For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:12:59 EST
From: Lomcevak@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: DOHC
rocker arm ques.
Thanks for the reply Bob. I have no
problem with the caps. The manual
outlined exactly the same things you
specified, however it says nothing about
the rockers. When I mount the cam
without installing the rockers, and torque
the caps down, the cam is nice and
free. It is only with the rockers in place
that I get the
binding.
I think I either have a rocker problem or a valve stem
height problem.
Again, thanks for the
reply,
SteveC
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:40:34 EST
From: Aso8@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Mods and
True gains - getting long
Hey guys, lets keep this in perspective. I have
no compunction about
using the K&N -air quality be dammed. In fact I use
the worst of the bunch
in air filtration, the HKS duel super maga flow. I was
just stating a fact
about
air quality give backs for better performance.
Look, if we wanted our cars
to last a million miles we can drive it like a
big fat Buick. Of course,
under spirited driving you shorten a cars life and
add to maintenance costs.
If you want your car to last forever don't even
start it up. Just look at it.
Our objectives are usually performance, some of
us may be more interested in
longevity. The two are not the same. It stands
to reason if you build a race
car, its not going to last as long as a stock
factory setup. Nor, would you
expect it to.
Arty 91 VR-4
In a message
dated 2/5/99 3:57:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,
robby@swissonline.ch
writes:
<< Subj: Re: Team3S: Mods and True gains - getting
long
Date: 2/5/99 3:57:07 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: robby@swissonline.ch
(R.G.)
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Reply-to:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Arty,
The
McLaren-Mercedes Formula 1 car uses a huge K&N filter element as
others
do
in Nascar and Rally Racing. Especially the last is the
worst environment and
AFAIK I never heard of an engine that died due to
the sand comming into the
intake. The more they had problems with the
trannies or broken intercoolers.
I do more clean and reoil
the filter just to make sure real good
filteration.
-----------------------
Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
>>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:08:55 EST
From: Aso8@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Dyno session
results !
Roger, etc all.
Great stuff, thanks for the info. I can
hardly wait for one of you guys to get
set up with 15G's and some fuel to see
where we can safely go>>>
While your at the Dyno shop...PLEASE Get
The Name off the dyno of the Mfg.
Maybe, I can call them to see if they ever
installed one in the states?
Arty 91 VR-4
In a message dated 2/5/99
3:57:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,
robby@swissonline.ch
writes:
<< Subj: Team3S: Dyno session results !
Date:
2/5/99 3:57:06 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: robby@swissonline.ch
(R.G.)
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Reply-to:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Ok
guys ! As announced, the list members Jim Matthews, Mike Chapleski
and
Roger
Gerl had a little 3-car gathering last Monday in
Zurich/Switzerland where we
spent some hours on a
dyno.
We scanned the different slips in and corrected the
scales to be able to
provide
a good comparison. Please be patient as
the figures are showing kW for power
and
Nm for torque and I haven't
had the time to redo the sheets with SAE hp and
lbs-ft for the torque.
I'll try to do them over the weekend :)
The outcome was very
interesting and finally we learned some important
things.
Here I
just summarize a few things up and for more information just go
to
Jims
or my homepage for more detailed
information.
Here the main figures:
- Jims
94'Stealth : 406hp @ 5680 (SAE corr.) 354 lb-ft @
5180
- Mike's 95'Stealth : 403hp @ 6230 (SAE corr.) 331
lb-ft @ 5210
- Roger's 93'3000GT : 402hp @ 5450 (SAE corr.)
371 lb-ft @ 47601
>>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:22:12 -0600
From: Wayne <wala@hypertech-inc.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Re: TSB's...
Feel free to correct me anyone, but it is my
understanding that a TSB is
nothing more than an "alert" of possible
problems to be aware of. For
example, the dealer might get a TSB that states
that on a paticular
vehicle, the glove box latch is weak, and will eventually
break. The dealer
may want to stock up on latches, to prepare themselves for
a potential
onslaught of vehicles coming in with glove boxes 'hanging
around'. These
are different than Recalls, which do get fixed for free,
weather the
vehicle is under warranty or not. You should get the problem
fixed for
free, but only if it is a recall, or if the part in question is
still under
warranty. Hope this helps.....
Wayne
At 10:56 PM 2/5/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Could somebody
please
>answer his question for me?
>
>My question is can we
take our cars to the dealerships
>& they'll fix the problems for free?
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:18:43 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Mods and True gains - getting long
The K&N reports for high mileage
trucking companies and race teams have to
be put into perspective.
First off, an F1 engine doesn't stay together for
more than a few 100s of
miles. Long haul trucking companies put literally
millions of miles on
their vehicles in a short period of time.
The real question for us is,
does the K&N degrade engine reliability say
within 150,000 miles? I
kind of doubt it, but maybe. *shrug*
I'll keep mine. I have
to -- the only filter made to fit the MASC is a big
K & N
=)
Regards,
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
> Arty,
>
> The McLaren-Mercedes Formula 1 car
uses a huge K&N filter element
> as others do
> in Nascar and
Rally Racing. Especially the last is the worst
> environment and
>
AFAIK I never heard of an engine that died due to the sand
> comming into
the
> intake. The more they had problems with the trannies or
broken
> intercoolers.
>
> I do more clean and reoil the
filter just to make sure real good
> filteration.
>
>
-----------------------
> Roger Gerl, Switzerland
> 93'3000GT
TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 16:27:03 +0000
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Dyno results
> Thanks for the update Roger. I found it
interesting that there appears to
> be a loss of about 30% in HP from the
flywheel to the wheels. I always
> thought that it was more like a
20% loss.
Mikes loss was 29.55% (18", 6-Speed), Jims 29.88% (17",
6-Speed) and mine 27.85%
(17", 5-speed). The figures before the rebuild
showed a huge loss of 34.5% on
mine but I can't say where this came
from.
> HP using the G-Tech and if so how close to those results were
the dyno
> numbers?
I got around 254hp with the G-Tech. If these
are wheel hp then this is around
397 SAE hp calculated with the loss and the
correction. This sounds pretty
accurate to my measurments but I'll redo this
when I'm getting the thing back
from my Supra friend ! BTW, his automatic
Supra TT had a loss of 21%
- -----------------------
Roger
Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:46:31 -0600
From: Wayne <wala@hypertech-inc.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Drivetrain HP losses
If i may put my 2 cents in, this 30% sounds
about right, considering we are
talking about an AWD. On the dyno here at
work, we typically see 15% on
manual trans. vehicles, and about 25% on
vehicles with A/T's. Of course,
these are 2 wheel drive vehicles, thats why i
say 30% for an AWD sounds
reasonable.
Wayne
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:12:05 -0800
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Dyno results
Roger, Jim, Mike...
Thanks for the
excellent summary. The web pages are FANTASTIC!!!
I'm sure this
information will help many 3SI owners who have not yet
embarked on the mod
journey. If I had known this eighteen months ago, those
injectors, turbos,
fuel pump and intercoolers that are sitting in the garage
would be on my VR4,
and the exhaust system would be back at the
manufacturers (which would've
netted me the $$$ to finish my mods). Live and
learn!!!
Looking
forward...Chris
1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4 (w/HKS Super Flo intake, HKS
SBOV, Predator dry
cell battery, bored and polished throttle body, Magnecore
8.5mm wires, HKS
double platinum plugs gapped at .034", GReddy PRofec A boost
controller,
GReddy turbo timer, ATR downpipe and test pipe, GReddy catback
exhaust,
Eibach 1" drop progressive springs)
- -----Original
Message-----
From: R.G. [mailto:robby@swissonline.ch]
Sent:
Friday, February 05, 1999 8:27 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Dyno results
> Thanks for the update Roger. I
found it interesting that there appears to
> be a loss of about 30% in HP
from the flywheel to the wheels. I always
> thought that it was more
like a 20% loss.
Mikes loss was 29.55% (18", 6-Speed), Jims 29.88% (17",
6-Speed) and mine
27.85%
(17", 5-speed). The figures before the rebuild
showed a huge loss of 34.5%
on
mine but I can't say where this came
from.
> HP using the G-Tech and if so how close to those results were
the dyno
> numbers?
I got around 254hp with the G-Tech. If these
are wheel hp then this is
around
397 SAE hp calculated with the loss and
the correction. This sounds pretty
accurate to my measurments but I'll redo
this when I'm getting the thing
back
from my Supra friend ! BTW, his
automatic Supra TT had a loss of 21%
-
-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo
(Animale Rosso)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:23:05 EST
From: TTurboAWD@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Dyno session results !
In a message dated 2/5/99 6:57:06 AM Eastern
Standard Time,
robby@swissonline.ch
writes:
<<
Ok guys ! As announced, the list members Jim
Matthews, Mike Chapleski and
Roger
Gerl had a little 3-car gathering
last Monday in Zurich/Switzerland where we
spent some hours on a
dyno.
We scanned the different slips in and corrected the
scales to be able to
provide
a good comparison. Please be patient as
the figures are showing kW for power
and
Nm for torque and I haven't
had the time to redo the sheets with SAE hp and
lbs-ft for the torque.
I'll try to do them over the weekend :)
The outcome was very
interesting and finally we learned some important
things.
Here I
just summarize a few things up and for more information just go
to
Jims
or my homepage for more detailed
information.
Here the main figure
>>
********Roger,Jim and
Mike,
GREAT JOB! This
kind of info is priceless. Thanks
for
sharing with
us.
Wayne 3SI
#87
'91 Stealth TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:15:49 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <middaugh@omega.gat.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Dyno results
"
> Mikes loss was 29.55% (18", 6-Speed),
Jims 29.88% (17", 6-Speed) and mine 27.85%
> (17", 5-speed). The figures
before the rebuild showed a huge loss of 34.5% on
> mine but I can't say
where this came from.
Hi Roger,
How were these loss figures
obtained/calculated?
Thanks,
Ken
- --
Ken
Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 14:22:16 +0000
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Dyno session results !
Jep, me too :)
The time schedule
says that I'll pick the injectors up when I'm in States and
the fuel pump is
ready. I doubt that it makes sense to upgrade the fuel pump
only. So the next
dyno will be next week to tune in teh AFC with my current
setup and then by
the end of March for the fuel upgrade.
- -----------------------
Roger
Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 18:19:48 +0000
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Dyno session results !
Arty,
> Great stuff, thanks for
the info. I can hardly wait for one of you guys to
> get set up with 15G's
and some fuel to see where we can safely go>>>
Hehe, time and
money will tell :)
> While your at the Dyno shop...PLEASE Get The Name
off the dyno of the Mfg.
> Maybe, I can call them to see if they ever
installed one in the states?
The dyno is made by MAHA in Germany. I was
looking for more information but was
not of luck. I can try to get an address
in Germany where we can ask the next
time.
Later,
Roger
-
-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo
(Animale Rosso)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 18:29:28 +0000
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Dyno results
> How were these loss figures
obtained/calculated?
The car was driven up until power falled off and the
clutch was pressed very
quick. The dyno sees this and measure the resistance
on all wheels until it goes
back to almost 0 speed. The rolls are connected
to high power e-motors that are
controlled by the dyno and they act like a
generator in this phase. The operator
has to avoid any braking during this
period ! This is done on every run as the
rolls and tires get hot. Also
different gear ratios will give different loss and
with this the difference
is compensated to provide comparable measures.
Regards,
Roger
-
-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo
(Animale Rosso)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:28:21 -0600
From: Scott J Cowan <sjc0u812@juno.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: RIP Mitsubishi 3000 GT
Hello to all:
I think many of you
know got a real good relationship with my local
dealer here in WI. So,
I called my guy in service and his take based on
their internal meeting is as
follows:
- -yes, it's true, the 3000 is done
- -the new Elise is the
"replacement," the car will not return
- -they are only supporting parts for
seven years after date of
manufacturer (so for example, I own a '92, for my
car, they'll stop after
this year)
- -the turbo will not be revived
-
-the new Eclipse is bigger to attract the 3000 folks, and get more
new
Eclipse customers
Sad day indeed.
Scott
'92
VR4
On Thu, 04 Feb 1999 14:04:43 -0600 Jeff Crabtree
<wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com>
writes:
>I was @ the St. Louis Auto show a couple of weeks ago, and I
asked
>about the fate of the
>3000 at the mitsu display. I
was told that there will be no Y2K
>model, but the car will
>be
back in 2001, completely remodled. On a down note, I was also told
>that they plan on
>doing away with the turbo version of the
car. They said that fewer
>and fewer people
>were willing to
pay the premium price hike for the increase in
>performance. R.I.P.
"TT"
___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:51:44 EST
From: MrX2111@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: RIP
Mitsubishi 3000 GT
350hp awd 6 speed twinturbo vw BEETLE!!! in the 99 car
show 8)
Xannieria
3SI #130
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
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------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:58:34 -0800
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: RIP Mitsubishi 3000 GT
- -----Original Message-----
From:
Scott J Cowan [mailto:sjc0u812@juno.com]
Sent: Friday,
February 05, 1999 9:28 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Re: Team3S: RIP Mitsubishi 3000 GT
I think many of you know got a real
good relationship with my local
dealer here in WI. So, I called my guy
in service and his take based on
their internal meeting is as
follows:
- -yes, it's true, the 3000 is done
<snip>
Sad
day indeed.
Scott
'92
VR4
===============================
Scott...
From a technical
perspective, I'm concerned about factory parts availability
over the years to
come.
From a purely selfish perspective, I'll be glad to see it go. I
don't think
they've done the product line any favors since 1996, what with
appearance
changes, deletion of the Stealth, attempts to capture the low end
market by
dropping features, etc.
What we have will become more
valuable, more unusual, more striking, as
there are fewer and fewer of us on
the roads.
Looking forward...Chris
1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4
(w/HKS Super Flo intake, HKS SBOV, Predator dry
cell battery, bored and
polished throttle body, Magnecore 8.5mm wires, HKS
double platinum plugs
gapped at .034", GReddy PRofec A boost controller,
GReddy turbo timer, ATR
downpipe and test pipe, GReddy catback exhaust,
Eibach 1" drop progressive
springs)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 10:00:23 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <middaugh@omega.gat.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Wheel to Flywheel HP calculation
> > Thanks for the update
Roger. I found it interesting that there appears to
> > be a loss
of about 30% in HP from the flywheel to the wheels. I always
> >
thought that it was more like a 20% loss.
>
> Mikes loss was 29.55%
(18", 6-Speed), Jims 29.88% (17", 6-Speed) and mine 27.85%
> (17",
5-speed). The figures before the rebuild showed a huge loss of 34.5% on
>
mine but I can't say where this came from.
I need some clarification on
the conversion formulas between wheel and
flywheel HP.
For the
17" 5 speed, Is this accurate: Flywheel HP * ( 1 - 0.2785 ) =
HP at
wheels ?
OR, is the correct formula: Wheel HP * 1.2785 = Flywheel
HP ?
For example, lets say used a G-tech to measure my HP at the
wheels,
corrected the value for altitude and got 300HP. Is my flywheel
HP = 300
/ ( 1 - 0.2785 ) = 300 / .7215 = 415, or is it flywheel HP =
300 *
1.2785 = 383? My intuition says it is the second
forumla.
Thanks,
Ken
- --
Ken Middaugh
General
Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 14:10:42 -0500
From: "Theiss, Charles" <charles.theiss@lmco.com>
Subject:
Team3S: RE:Team 3s: RIP Mitsubishi 3000 GT
I think it is important to
note that with the demise of the 3000 this list
becomes even more important
to those of us who intend to continue our
ownership. Parts will become
scarce and I am sure that the aftermarket will
also dry up. Information
on this list will be invaluable in locating parts
and keeping our cars
serviced properly.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:16:23 -0800
From: "bill" <compren@lightspeed.net>
Subject:
Team3S: What's a safe PSI/CM/KG
On an HKS EVC, what should I enter as the
max and Minimum CM/kg?
Car is '95 TT with Downpipe, K&N, highflow
cat, borla exhaust
- -Thanks
- -Bill
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:30:36 -0600
From: Scott J Cowan <sjc0u812@juno.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: RIP Mitsubishi 3000 GT
Chris:
On Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:58:34
-0800 Chris Winkley
<cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
writes:
>From a technical perspective, I'm concerned about factory
parts
>availability
>over the years to come.
I guess I am
also concerned on other things, like maybe the price of 17"
tires.
Seems like most of the cars that ran those are also dying off.
>From a
purely selfish perspective, I'll be glad to see it go.
I guess I can't
agree with that statement on any terms.
I don't
>think
>they've done the product line any favors since 1996, what
with
>appearance
>changes, deletion of the Stealth, attempts to
capture the low end
>market by
>dropping features, etc.
That may be true, but I now am actually having thoughts on whether or
not
it is more prudent strictly from a future financial situation to sell
my
car.
>What we have will become more valuable, more unusual, more
striking,
>as
>there are fewer and fewer of us on the
roads.
Your probably right, but my car is my daily driver, and I depend
on it to
no end. Also, I have yet to get ahead of it when it comes
to
maintenance. If the costs of PM and or normal failure and higher
parts
prices should occur, the out look of hanging on to it is not
good.
>Looking
forward...Chris
Scott
___________________________________________________________________
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don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 13:46:57 -0600
From: Wayne <wala@hypertech-inc.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Wheel to Flywheel HP calculation
Being as there are so many
factors to consider when it comes to the
efficiency (or inefficiency) of a
paticular drivetrain, the only REAL way
to compute the HP losses is to take
what the manufacturer says the HP is as
gospel, (because they advertise
flywheel HP) put the vehicle on a dyno, and
calculate the differences between
the two. This value will not be the same
from one vehicle to another. Without
both of these HP values, there is no
way to calculate the percent of
drivetrain loss, unless you would like to
examine each and every component of
the drivetrain system, and make
hundreds of calculations concerning friction,
sprung and unsprung weight,
drag, material properties, ambient temps, etc,
etc...A good rule of thumb
is 10-15% for manual trans, 20-25% for A/T,
and now we have ~30% for AWD
manual trans. This is just my take on this
subject, since iv'e been
involved in dozens of dyno sessions on a wide
variety of vehicles.
Wayne
At 10:00 AM 2/5/99 -0800, you
wrote:
>I need some clarification on the conversion formulas between
wheel and
>flywheel HP.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:40:09 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <middaugh@omega.gat.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: What's a safe PSI/CM/KG
bill wrote:
>
> On an
HKS EVC, what should I enter as the max and Minimum CM/kg?
>
> Car
is '95 TT with Downpipe, K&N, highflow cat, borla exhaust
I'm not
sure what CM/kg is. Use 15 psi as a safe value for 92
octane
fuel. There is a pretty good units converter at
http://www.xs4all.nl/~janderk/science/unitconverter/.
It gives 15 psi =
77.57 cm/hg.
Good luck,
Ken
- --
Ken
Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 12:04:09 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re:
Team3S: RIP Mitsubishi 3000 GT
Scott J Cowan wrote:
> You're
probably right, but my car is my daily driver, and I depend on it to
> no
end. Also, I have yet to get ahead of it when it comes to
>
maintenance. If the costs of PM and or normal failure and higher
parts
> prices should occur, the out look of hanging on to it is not
good.
Scott....sell it, buy a dependable 100 miles to the gallon daily
driver, avoid the
hassel of depreciation (likely to occur for a couple more
years) and the anxiety of
worry over disappearing parts... and let someone
buy it who will appreciate it for what
it is: a mythical machine that is
bound to grow in automotive legends and be babied by
those who love and want
to own it.
Best
Darc
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 15:13:28 -0500
From: josesini <josesini@engin.umich.edu>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Wheel to Flywheel HP calculation
Wayne,
You're going
about it the wrong way. It is simple (relatively speaking)
and 100%
accurate if you do it the following way:
Measure horsepower on an all
wheel drive dyno, then remove the engine
and measure horsepower on an engine
dyno. You would also need to remove
all the intake and exhaust piping
and also do not forget the CPU and
fuel pump. Then just subtract both
measurements and bingo you have your
"Dead's on balls acurate" drivetrain
horsepower loss .
Later,
Jose Sinibaldi
Wayne
wrote:
>
> Being as there are so many factors to consider when it
comes to the
> efficiency (or inefficiency) of a paticular drivetrain, the
only REAL way
> to compute the HP losses is to take what the manufacturer
says the HP is as
> gospel, (because they advertise flywheel HP) put the
vehicle on a dyno, and
> calculate the differences between the two. This
value will not be the same
> from one vehicle to another. Without both of
these HP values, there is no
> way to calculate the percent of drivetrain
loss, unless you would like to
> examine each and every component of the
drivetrain system, and make
> hundreds of calculations concerning
friction, sprung and unsprung weight,
> drag, material properties, ambient
temps, etc, etc...A good rule of thumb
> is 10-15% for manual trans,
20-25% for A/T, and now we have ~30% for AWD
> manual trans. This is just
my take on this subject, since iv'e been
> involved in dozens of dyno
sessions on a wide variety of vehicles.
>
> Wayne
>
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 12:14:29 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re:
Team3S: What's a safe PSI/CM/KG
Using the recent dyno results as a
measuring device, and assuming you are running stock
injectors and fuel pump,
anything over 1 bar (14.5 psi) may start to involve detonation.
So set it at
1 bar for your maximum /ceiling. I didn't know there was minimum setting
(I
run a SAVC-R) but I expect .75 bar should be conservative enough. Someone
else maybe can
supply this information if they run your brand of
BC.
Best
Darc
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:24:13 -0500
From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Wheel to Flywheel HP calculation
I'm sure Wayne can elaborate
himself but if I'm reading him right, his
application of the "rule of thumb"
is so that you don't have to remove the
3S turbo motor with all of its piping
and fuel system in order to pinpoint
engine HP. When he says he's done
a lot of dyno work, I tend to believe
him, given his employer and their need
for engine dynos in order to
determine whether their products work or
not.
- -Bob
> You're going about it the wrong way. It is
simple (relatively speaking)
> and 100% accurate if you do it the
following way:
>
> Measure horsepower on an all wheel drive dyno,
then remove the engine
> and measure horsepower on an engine dyno.
You would also need to remove
> all the intake and exhaust piping and also
do not forget the CPU and
> fuel pump. Then just subtract both
measurements and bingo you have your
> "Dead's on balls acurate"
drivetrain horsepower loss .
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 14:38:00 -0600
From: Wayne <wala@hypertech-inc.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Wheel to Flywheel HP calculation
Thanks for pointing this
out, but i ommited this obvious method because
only about 2% of the general
population have access to an engine dyno. And
the fact that it was so
obvious, it wasn't really worth mentioning. Thanks
though...
At 03:13
PM 2/5/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Wayne,
>
>You're going about it
the wrong way. It is simple (relatively speaking)
>and 100% accurate
if you do it the following way:
>
>Measure horsepower on an all
wheel drive dyno, then remove the engine
>and measure horsepower on an
engine dyno. You would also need to remove
>all the intake and
exhaust piping and also do not forget the CPU and
>fuel pump. Then
just subtract both measurements and bingo you have your
>"Dead's on balls
acurate" drivetrain horsepower loss .
>
>Later,
>
>Jose
Sinibaldi
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 22:15:39 +0000
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Wheel to Flywheel HP calculation
> You're going about it the
wrong way. It is simple (relatively speaking)
> and 100% accurate if
you do it the following way:
<snip the unbrained puzzle
way>
Please reread my post upon how the dyno got the loss. Of course
every car is
different and even my winter tires made a difference. Also the
loss is different
in any gear but also then the rearwheel hp. Calculating the
loss together with
the rear-wheel hp gives you again the correct engine
horses.
No offence broh, but it's easier to use the brain and a
calculator than striping
the car down.
-
-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo
(Animale Rosso)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 22:33:54 +0000
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Wheel to Flywheel HP calculation
Ken,
Of course, each car
has its own drivetrain loss (tranny oil ??). As mine is a
5-speed with 17"
here are the figures written on my sheet :
P-Wheel : 188.0kW
(252hp)
P-Loss : 73.5kW (98.7hp)
P-Engine : 261.5kW
(350.7hp, uncorrected)
Now the figure has to be SAE corrected and this
can not only be done by a
multiplication as the dyno does this upon the
measured figures. Don't ask me
what it does (Wayne ?)
For the G-Tech
figures the following page gives a good explanation how to
calculate Flywheel
hp :
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/9190/g-tech.html
It
works very well for manual rear/front wheel driven cars but I'm not
sure
about automatics or AWD.
Hope this helps. I'll check out with the
G-Tech when the Supra guy ends playing
with it :)
-
-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo
(Animale Rosso)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:17:04 -0600
From: Scott J Cowan <sjc0u812@juno.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: RIP Mitsubishi 3000 GT
Darc:
On Fri, 05 Feb 1999 12:04:09
-0800 wce@bc.sympatico.ca
writes:
>Scott....sell it, buy a dependable 100 miles to the gallon daily
>driver, avoid the
>hassel of depreciation (likely to occur for a
couple more years) and
>the anxiety of
>worry over disappearing
parts... and let someone buy it who will
>appreciate it for
what
>it is: a mythical machine that is bound to grow in automotive
legends
>and be babied by
>those who love and want to own
it.
I think you're missing my point here. I saved my last cent to
get this
car. I also borrowed form Peter, robbed Paul, etc. It's
truly my
favorite thing in life right now, next to my kids. I do
everything I can
for this car, as really it's much more than a transportation
issue to me.
But you knew that. This is strictly from my wallet's
stand point, and
the fact if it does go down, I unfortunately don't have the
kind of money
where I can afford to replace it with anything else reasonable
at this
time. I would really prefer to never drive another kind of car,
now that
I've owned one, and drive it every day through sun and snow.
Appreciate
it? I guess I take issue with you and that statement, or I
wouldn't be
here to begin with. It's strictly a matter of I strung
myself out here
quite a bit here to capture one and maintain it, and odds are
it looks
like that expense may go up. I was simply trying to, as usual,
ask
questions, get opinions, and share and help in any way I can with
my
other fellow Team 3S members. I realize I don't have a ton of
experience
working on these cars, but I do love them, and try real hard to do
what I
can with what I have to work with. But sometimes, love can even
go bad.
If I could work out owning one of these cars forever, I surely
would. I
guess I just haven't hit the lotto yet. Hope that clears
up my
point.
Scott
___________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 16:34:05 -0600
From: Wayne <wala@hypertech-inc.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Wheel to Flywheel HP calculation
Roger,
I cant say that
all dyno manufacturers use the same methods to compute
corrected HP, but
Dynojet (which is the brand i have experience with) takes
values input by the
user for ambient air temp and humidity, along with the
measured HP and baro
pressure, and computes what the HP would be at
predetermined temp and
humidity. This method produces more repeatable
readings from one pull to the
next. In other words, your vehicle will
produce less and less power as the
engine/drivetrain/test site heat up with
each pull, but the corrected HP (and
torque, by the way) will remain fairly
consistant, because it is corrected to
"standard" ambient conditions. Not
sure about the standard values used,
probably along the lines of 68-74deg.
F, 50% humidity, baro 30. but thats
just a guess.
Wayne
At 10:33 PM 2/5/99 +0000, you
wrote:
>Now the figure has to be SAE corrected and this can not only
be done by a
>multiplication as the dyno does this upon the measured
figures. Don't ask me
>what it does (Wayne ?)
For
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------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:43:11 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: RIP Mitsubishi 3000 GT
Hey guys, just a thought, but have you
thought about the fact that Mitsu is
still gonna have the drivetrain from the
VR-4 (TT 3.0V6) in the Mad Max? Or
so my dealer tells me, anyway.
So, I'd think most of the major parts
wouldn't be that hard to find. As
for the Getrag, well, that's another can
o worms:)
-
--Erik
- -----Original Message-----
From: Scott J Cowan [mailto:sjc0u812@juno.com]
Subject: Re:
Team3S: RIP Mitsubishi 3000 GT
<snip>
This is strictly from my
wallet's stand point, and
the fact if it does go down, I unfortunately don't
have the kind of money
where I can afford to replace it with anything else
reasonable at this
time.
<snip>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 14:52:29 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <middaugh@omega.gat.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: Wheel to Flywheel HP calculation
So based on your results,
the approximate loss factor for the 17" wheel
5 speed is 73.5 / 261.5 =
28.107%. Therefore the formula to calculate
Flywheel HP is: Wheel
HP * ( 1 / ( 1 - .28107 )) = Wheel HP * 1.391.
I'm amazed that this
multiplication factor is so large! Is there a flaw
in my
deduction?
I couldn't make any sense of the web site you gave. The
guy
mysteriously produced multiplication values of 1.2 and 1.25 for his
(I
assume 2wd) cars.
"R.G." wrote:
>
> Ken,
>
> Of course, each car has its own drivetrain loss (tranny oil ??). As
mine is a
> 5-speed with 17" here are the figures written on my sheet
:
>
> P-Wheel : 188.0kW (252hp)
> P-Loss
: 73.5kW (98.7hp)
> P-Engine : 261.5kW (350.7hp,
uncorrected)
>
> Now the figure has to be SAE corrected and this
can not only be done by a
> multiplication as the dyno does this upon the
measured figures. Don't ask me
> what it does (Wayne ?)
>
>
For the G-Tech figures the following page gives a good explanation how
to
> calculate Flywheel hp :
> http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/9190/g-tech.html
>
> It works very well for manual rear/front wheel driven cars but I'm not
sure
> about automatics or AWD.
>
> Hope this helps. I'll
check out with the G-Tech when the Supra guy ends playing
> with it
:)
>
> -----------------------
> Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
> 93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
- --
Ken
Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:19:51 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject:
Team3S: 5-speed problems, part II (advice requested)
Ok, here's the meat
of the 3 responses I've received so far:
For those of you who read the
responses the first time,
please pardon the repetition...
(one
note: I *don't* have a Getrag 5-speed, so my tranny
is serviceable by the dealer.
It's made by Mitsu.)
> From: Pegleg Pete [mailto:Forrest_@ix.netcom.com]
>
> This same problem was experienced in my '94 6 spd.
> Much worse
when cold. The fix was easy.
> General Motors synthetic Syncro Mesh
oil.
> From: Marc Spinale [mailto:mspinale@mediaone.net]
>
> My 93 transmission (#2 from Mitsu) had the exact same problem
>
you describe (1st to 2nd). I believe it's definitely an
> internal
defect. In my case, a rebuilt tranny was installed
> to fix another
problem and the new problem you describe
> began. I made the mistake
of assuming that they simply
> adjusted the cables incorrectly.
>
> It had resistance going into 2nd gear from 1st. It did not
> happen all the time but often enough to be a nuisance.
>
>
I wonder if the dealer put the wrong fluid in it. Almost
> sounds
like there's heavy weight gear fluid inside.
> I would go back to the
dealer and insist that they fix it.
> From: Ron Thompson [mailto:rtetetet@earthlink.net]
>
> Try changing the trany fluid. My Eclise trany
> shifted lousy
with Valvoline gear oil but was ok
> with Quaker State. The temp has alot
to to do with
> your situation, trany temo won't come up for some
>
time after the engine temp and gear oil is really
> ornery when cold. All
of the problems you describe
> were the same in my Eclipse and my 96 VR4
is real
> notchy in the morning.
So, as for the GM
SynchroMesh, I know there was a TSB or factory
recommendation about a year
ago for dealers to switch gear oils in the
5-speeds on the NA cars from
whatever they were using to something that if I
recall correctly was some GM
product (I will ask them about this). In any
case, when my tranny was
rebuild a month ago, the gear oil was replaced with
whatever GM product
(Synchro Mesh sounds right) Mitsu is recommending at the
moment. So one
would think (naively?) that whatever's best for my tranny is
in there now,
right?
I guess the rough shifting in cold weather is fairly common
in
Mitsu/Getrag transmissions (acceptable or not). As long as it
doesn't get
any worse in my case, I can deal with it. However the gear
grinding I
mentioned originally (see #2 below if you missed my first post)
really
troubles me (let me take a moment p p Poughkeepsie :) ok, I feel
better
now. But seriously, you guys think the grinding crap is
something to shut
up and deal with or something to go back to the dealer
about...and probably
have to a) get them to do something about it and b) be
without my car for
14.26 months. Ugh. So you think it's normal/ok
(happens very
infrequently), or is it the beginnings of a problem that I
should get taken
care of? Thanks a lot for your advice/input,
guys:)
- --Erik
-
------
----------
Erik
Gross
DuPont, WA
'95 Pearl White 3000GT 47k mi - resonatorless + bald tire mod
-
------
----------
"Without somehow destroying me in the process, how
could
God reveal Himself in a way that would leave no room
for
doubt? If there were no room for doubt, there
would be
no room for
me."
--Frederick Buechner
-
-------------------------------------------------------------
Original
Post by me:
I've got a question for those of you who know a decent amount
about
trannies. I just had my (mitsu) 5-speed rebuilt by my dealer,
under
warranty, (1st, 2nd synchros replaced, 1st, 2nd gear bearings replaced)
and
the notchy shifting I had experienced before is reduced and eliminated
in
some cases. However sometimes, especially when it's cold, the
shifter is
still really notchy, and a couple of times has even ground the
gears (1st
and 2nd).
Symptoms(all with clutch on the floor, fully
disengaged- yes, it's adjusted
properly):
1) two-phase shifting-
shifter goes about halfway into gear, reaches
resistance, and then slips all
the way into gear. (maybe synchro/collar
contact, followed by
collar/gear contact?) Worse when cold.
2) (about 3 times in the
last month) really cacophonous gear grating
noise...example conditions:
just started out of parking lot after work (40F
and car's been sitting for 9
hours), 1st is fine(going easy), get to 3500RPM
or so, decide to shift to
2nd, shifter comes halfway back, meets resistance,
pull a little harder,
nasty grinding noise, put it back in neutral, try
again for 2nd after having
everyone in the parking lot staring at me, 2nd
engages smoothly, I leave
parking lot with tail between legs.
This doesn't seem normal to me,
and the second symptom, although very
infrequent and only when cold(so far)is
very troubling. #2 happened once
while trying to downshift to 1st while
going 7.36mph and attempting to
rev-match, too.
So, any ideas?
Should I go back to the dealer? Maybe the synchros aren't
sticky enough
at low temperatures? (Technical: low coefficient of friction
at the
synchro/collar interface in cold conditions?) Does our layshaft have
a
HUGE rotational inertia or something? Is my tranny a piece of
crap?
Comments, please... :)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 15:33:21 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re:
Team3S: RIP Mitsubishi 3000 GT
Scott;
No probs. I understand and
understood. The best money you can get for it is now, unless
you want to wait
until they start to appreciate. Maintenance is not as bad as you fear
once
you start to get your hands greasy and invoke the aid/help of members who
have
benderdondat. But, if you are stretched too thin, then as Peter's
Principle states,
things will go wrong (shit happens). FWIW parts are still
cheap for stock cars as
members upgrade and sell off their no longer wanted
parts...plently of turbos,
injectors, brake parts, air cleaner filters, etc.
Just start checking member websites
and you'll see parts for sale cheap. IMO
it's worth keeping...an investment...unless
you're going to starve your
family to keep it. Too many miles also starts to take a
toll. It's your life,
keep it or sell it and get the daily
commuter,
Best
Darc
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 15:47:28 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re:
Team3S: 5-speed problems, part II (advice requested)
Erik;
My 92
TT Stealth doesn't grind (knock on wood) but is a bit notchy at times when
cold.
This goes away relatively quickly...but our cold is everyone else's
mild winter. I
digress...to reiterate notchiness is a given with these,
but grinding is not! Get that:
NOT NORMAL!! Get it looked at...synchros could
be on their way out and that is not an
envialble thing. It's time to
establish a paper trail with the dealer (ie on this given
day this problem
was noted as the beginning of a problem) Have it etched in stone! Take
no
prisoners.
Best
Darc
Gross, Erik wrote:
> Ok,
here's the meat of the 3 responses I've received so far:
> For those of
you who read the responses the first time,
> please pardon the
repetition...
>
> (one note: I *don't* have a Getrag 5-speed,
so my tranny
> is serviceable by
the dealer. It's made by Mitsu.)
>
> > From: Pegleg Pete
[mailto:Forrest_@ix.netcom.com]
>
>
> > This same problem was experienced in my '94 6 spd.
>
> Much worse when cold. The fix was easy.
> > General Motors
synthetic Syncro Mesh oil.
>
> > From: Marc Spinale [mailto:mspinale@mediaone.net]
>
>
> > My 93 transmission (#2 from Mitsu) had the exact same
problem
> > you describe (1st to 2nd). I believe it's definitely
an
> > internal defect. In my case, a rebuilt tranny was
installed
> > to fix another problem and the new problem you
describe
> > began. I made the mistake of assuming that they
simply
> > adjusted the cables incorrectly.
> >
> >
It had resistance going into 2nd gear from 1st. It did not
> >
happen all the time but often enough to be a nuisance.
> >
> >
I wonder if the dealer put the wrong fluid in it. Almost
> >
sounds like there's heavy weight gear fluid inside.
> > I would go back
to the dealer and insist that they fix it.
>
> > From: Ron
Thompson [mailto:rtetetet@earthlink.net]
>
>
> > Try changing the trany fluid. My Eclise trany
> >
shifted lousy with Valvoline gear oil but was ok
> > with Quaker State.
The temp has alot to to do with
> > your situation, trany temo won't
come up for some
> > time after the engine temp and gear oil is
really
> > ornery when cold. All of the problems you describe
>
> were the same in my Eclipse and my 96 VR4 is real
> > notchy in
the morning.
>
> So,
as for the GM SynchroMesh, I know there was a TSB or factory
>
recommendation about a year ago for dealers to switch gear oils in the
>
5-speeds on the NA cars from whatever they were using to something that if
I
> recall correctly was some GM product (I will ask them about
this). In any
> case, when my tranny was rebuild a month ago, the
gear oil was replaced with
> whatever GM product (Synchro Mesh sounds
right) Mitsu is recommending at the
> moment. So one would think
(naively?) that whatever's best for my tranny is
> in there now,
right?
> I guess the rough
shifting in cold weather is fairly common in
> Mitsu/Getrag transmissions
(acceptable or not). As long as it doesn't get
> any worse in my
case, I can deal with it. However the gear grinding I
> mentioned
originally (see #2 below if you missed my first post) really
> troubles me
(let me take a moment p p Poughkeepsie :) ok, I feel better
>
now. But seriously, you guys think the grinding crap is something to
shut
> up and deal with or something to go back to the dealer about...and
probably
> have to a) get them to do something about it and b) be without
my car for
> 14.26 months. Ugh. So you think it's normal/ok
(happens very
> infrequently), or is it the beginnings of a problem that I
should get taken
> care of? Thanks a lot for your advice/input,
guys:)
>
> --Erik
>
>
------
----------
> Erik
Gross
DuPont, WA
> '95 Pearl White 3000GT 47k mi - resonatorless + bald tire
mod
>
------
----------
> "Without somehow destroying me in the
process, how could
> God reveal Himself in a way
that would leave no room for
> doubt? If
there were no room for doubt, there would be
> no
room for
me."
--Frederick Buechner
>
-------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Original Post by
me:
>
> I've got a
question for those of you who know a decent amount about
> trannies.
I just had my (mitsu) 5-speed rebuilt by my dealer, under
> warranty,
(1st, 2nd synchros replaced, 1st, 2nd gear bearings replaced) and
> the
notchy shifting I had experienced before is reduced and eliminated in
>
some cases. However sometimes, especially when it's cold, the shifter
is
> still really notchy, and a couple of times has even ground the gears
(1st
> and 2nd).
>
> Symptoms(all with clutch on the floor,
fully disengaged- yes, it's adjusted
> properly):
>
> 1)
two-phase shifting- shifter goes about halfway into gear, reaches
>
resistance, and then slips all the way into gear. (maybe
synchro/collar
> contact, followed by collar/gear contact?) Worse
when cold.
>
> 2) (about 3 times in the last month) really
cacophonous gear grating
> noise...example conditions: just started
out of parking lot after work (40F
> and car's been sitting for 9 hours),
1st is fine(going easy), get to 3500RPM
> or so, decide to shift to 2nd,
shifter comes halfway back, meets resistance,
> pull a little harder,
nasty grinding noise, put it back in neutral, try
> again for 2nd after
having everyone in the parking lot staring at me, 2nd
> engages smoothly,
I leave parking lot with tail between legs.
>
> This doesn't seem
normal to me, and the second symptom, although very
> infrequent and only
when cold(so far)is very troubling. #2 happened once
> while trying
to downshift to 1st while going 7.36mph and attempting to
> rev-match,
too.
>
> So, any ideas? Should I go back to the dealer?
Maybe the synchros aren't
> sticky enough at low temperatures? (Technical:
low coefficient of friction
> at the synchro/collar interface in cold
conditions?) Does our layshaft have
> a HUGE rotational inertia or
something? Is my tranny a piece of crap?
> Comments, please...
:)
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 05 Feb 1999 17:00:08 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <middaugh@omega.gat.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Wheel to Flywheel HP calculation
"R.G." wrote:
>
> Ken,
>
> Of course, each car has its own drivetrain loss
(tranny oil ??). As mine is a
> 5-speed with 17" here are the figures
written on my sheet :
>
> P-Wheel : 188.0kW (252hp)
>
P-Loss : 73.5kW (98.7hp)
> P-Engine : 261.5kW (350.7hp,
uncorrected)
>
> Now the figure has to be SAE corrected and this
can not only be done by a
> multiplication as the dyno does this upon the
measured figures. Don't ask me
> what it does (Wayne ?)
I would
guess this correction is for altitude. Based on the included
post
below, I'd say the altitude of the dyno facility you were at is
3483 feet
above sea level.
<<< Included post from Jeffrey Young
Hey
everybody;
I found a site that has a program for calculating
corrected horsepower
for different altitudes and
temperatures. Its
located at
http://www.mind.net/rabcomp/html/about_hc2.html
. By working backwards,
I
have come up with a formula to calculate
what the corrected HP would be
if your using a G-Tech and
running at an
altitude other than sea level
Corrected HP = Actual HP * ((Altitude
/ 1000 * .042)+1)
Now the last months issue of Super Street (I
think) that had the
articles on installing a VPC & NOS to a 3S,
and
using a G-Tech for tuning.....said to multiply your G-Tech HP, which
is an
'at the wheels' HP rating by
1.2 to get a flywheel HP rating. I'm not
sure about this amount..20%
seems like a high loss for drivetrain and
wind
resistance....
Jeffrey
>>>
- --
Ken
Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:25:02 EST
From: Klusmanp@aol.com
Subject: Team3S:
Synchros: Good news!
I just talked with Randy at BRE engines about
repairing/rebuilding transaxles
in the 3000GT/Stealth AWD. It sounds like he
can help us!
I explained to him that there are no tranny parts or
technical documentation
available for these cars and that he would have to
manufacture the needed
components or adapt them from other cars. He explained
that they are a drag
racing company that races everything from rail cars to
modified street cars.
In an attempt to improve the operation of trannys in
street cars, they have
often had to manufacture custom components themselves
(actually, I think he
said they have vendors do it for them).
The
quality of their tranny work was endorsed in the following testimonial
about
BRE - posted by Vernon Naidoo on DSM Digest awhile back:
>>In the
last week or so I've noticed a couple of emails complaining
about the crappy
AWD transmissions. I thought I introduce those
interested to a company called
BRE Engines (San Jose, CA), which does
a nice mod on DSM transmissions that
eliminates almost all that
crappiness (if such a word exists). I was out in
California two
weekends back, and had a chance to test drive a '91 Talon that
had
just come out of BRE Engines shop, and I must admit that I was
very
impressed. Jeff, the owner, assured me that I could shift as fast as
I
wanted to, and at any rpm, and will never have a problem. My test
drive
could not prove him wrong.
Jeff is known for almost all the work on David
Shih's Honda, and is
currently helping Todd Chaimparino with his '91 Eclipse
to achieve
some similar HP. Todd currently boasts BRE Engines tranny
mod, and
has already made a couple of 12s test passes at the track with
no
complaints. If anyone is interested, contact Jeff at (408) 995-5750.
I
cannot give out any pricing info, as I got a special offer (friend
of
Todd's). I also cannot say what Jeff does to the tranny,
vendor
courtesy, but one can speculate.
Vernon Naidoo.
'91 Talon
AWD<<
Apparently, BRE has been getting a steady increase in
business from AWD
Eclipse/Talon owners who want to improve their car's
shifting operation. Randy
said they do some modifications to the synchros and
other parts in the tranny.
I told him I would pass on this information to see
if anyone is interested in
having their tranny reconditioned. I suggested
that if he could make
aftermarket synchro sets available for the AWD
3000GT/Stealth, there would be
a large demand for them - especially if they
were improvements over the stock
ones.
So, if anyone out there is
interested in having some tranny work done, give
these guys a call (408)
995-575) or contact them via email:
breracing1@aol.com. I got the impression
that these guys know what they are
doing as they currently hold two world
records. Also keep in mind that they
can improve the operation of a good
tranny as well as repair a bad one.
If BRE ends up doing some work on
your car PLEASE encourage them to take
measurements of the various components
so they can duplicate them and make
them available for sale.
I'll be
out of town all weekend - check back w/ you on Monday.
Paul
Klusman
Oh yeah, two more items of interest:
- - They make
their synchros out of solid brass. They claim that solid brass
works better
than steel w/ brass plating.
- - They use a synthetic oil called "Amsoil"
in their trannys and engines.
Apparently works better than Redline.
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 06 Feb 1999 02:16:08
From: Mark Creekmore <mcreekmore@usa.net>
Subject: Team3S:
Suspension Upgrade
I talked to Jay at Ground Control.
I wanted to order a set of adjustable springs like the ones that Barry
recomended (550 # front, 350 # rear). Jay said that the 350 # springs are
also used in the front of some RX7s and they are in high demand. It will
probably be around six weeks before they get any more in. They do have 320
# springs in stock. Should I wait for the 350 # springs to come in?
Is 550/350 an important ratio? Has anyone tested several spring
rates?
Thanks,
Mark
Black '92 R/T, K&N
Filter, HKS dual tip exaust, Alamo Downpipe, Random Tech. Cat., HKS EVC IV,
Stillen Sport Rotor Kit (disks, pads, lines, fluid), Fittipaldi Tubolare 18"
Rims, Sumitomo HTRZ II 245/45ZR18 Tires, Strut tower hood
scoop.
____________________________________________________________________
Get
free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 21:40:27 EST
From: Aso8@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Dyno session
results !
Thanks Roger. Get any info you can on the Dyno company. One of
these days we
may find one here in the states.
Arty
In a message
dated 2/5/99 12:21:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
robby@swissonline.ch
writes:
<< Subj: Re: Team3S: Dyno session results !
Date:
2/5/99 12:21:46 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: robby@swissonline.ch
(R.G.)
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Reply-to:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Arty,
>
Great stuff, thanks for the info. I can hardly wait for one of you guys
to
> get set up with 15G's and some fuel to see where we can safely
go>>>
Hehe, time and money will tell
:)
> While your at the Dyno shop...PLEASE Get The Name off
the dyno of the Mfg.
> Maybe, I can call them to see if they ever
installed one in the states?
The dyno is made by MAHA in
Germany. I was looking for more information but
was
not of luck. I
can try to get an address in Germany where we can ask the
next
time.
Later,
Roger
>>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:48:09 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Suspension Upgrade
I don't know that the 550/350 lb spring combination is
magic or not - I hope
it is ;)
Jay and I decided on that rate because
it is roughly a 60/40 balance, not
unlike the car's weight
distribution. I tend to pitch the car into corners
rather aggressively
and prefer twisties over the 1320' which is why I opted
for a slightly more
aggressive setup. He felt it would be a good choice
given my
preferences and I concur. This will definitely be a firmer ride
than
the stiffest "lowering" springs out there but will easily
be
streetable. The benefit with the GC kit of course is that you get to
use
the whole suspension travel so the ride should be less harsh.
Even
320 lb in the rear is stiffer than most. You could either drop
the
front rate a little bit for more balance and use the 320s, or just go
with
the 550/320 combo. In my experience you don't really need a lot of
spring
in the rear of these cars so being slightly less shouldn't hurt.
Jay
personally set up a Stealth TT so he may be able to help you
decide.
The 320s are actually closer to a 60/40 split than the 350s, but
on the
softer side of the line.
I have yet to drive the car with the
GC springs I ordered, so my particular
setup is unproven. However, I am
very confident it will be just what I am
after. I chose to wait, for
whatever that is worth.
I also ordered GC's front camber plate universal
fitment kit. The TEIN deal
I had going fell through and the other
distributor for TEIN parts is more
expensive than GC's excellent
kits.
Regards,
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
>
> I talked to Jay at Ground
Control. I wanted to order a set of
> adjustable springs like the ones
that Barry recomended (550 #
> front, 350 # rear). Jay said that the
350 # springs are also
> used in the front of some RX7s and they are in
high demand. It
> will probably be around six weeks before they get
any more in.
> They do have 320 # springs in stock. Should I wait
for the 350 #
> springs to come in? Is 550/350 an important
ratio? Has anyone
> tested several spring rates?
>
>
Thanks,
>
> Mark
> Black '92 R/T, K&N Filter, HKS dual tip
exaust, Alamo Downpipe,
> Random Tech. Cat., HKS EVC IV, Stillen Sport
Rotor Kit (disks,
> pads, lines, fluid), Fittipaldi Tubolare 18" Rims,
Sumitomo HTRZ
> II 245/45ZR18 Tires, Strut tower hood scoop.
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 21:32:02 -0700
From: "james berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Team3S:
suspension upgrade
Question concerning the front to rear weight bias
???? I've seen 60/40 used
several times, however using the numbers in
the service manual [ gross axle
weights --- Vs. gross vehicle weights ] I get
a split of 54/46. Just
wondering if the 60/40 is a real world number.
The gross wt. number is
vehicle weight plus four 180# occupants but I don't
know if their weight is
a 50/50 distribution.
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------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:02:40 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
suspension upgrade
Your numbers are likely closer to being correct.
I was guesstimating.
However, I am pretty certain I saw an article somewhwre
that claimed the
actual weight bias was a little closer to 60/40 than 50/50
with passengers.
Jay at GC seemed to think the car was also quite front heavy
based on his
tuning experience with the Stealth TT. Dunno. I do
know that my seat 'o
the pants acceleromter tells me the car is front heavy,
by how much I can
only postulate.
I do plan to corner balance the car
using scales. I will report my findings
at that time then we'll all
know.
In either case the front is typically going to take the brunt of
weight
transfer under braking and into turns. I won't mind a slightly
softer
rearward spring setup even if the weight bias is closer to 50/50 than
I have
presumed. The rear springs I currently have (RS*R) are softer
than the rear
by a significant amount and they feel reasonably well balanced
albeit
undersprung for my tastes. Not that the RS*Rs are bad springs,
in fact I
think they are quite good. Definitely an improvement over
stock and they
don't lower the car a ridiculous amount. Mine dropped
less than 1.5" but
more than 1.25".
I guess my RS*Rs will be for sale
when I get the GC kit sorted out. They
are about 8 months old I
think.
Regards,
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
>
> Question concerning the front to rear weight bias
???? I've seen
> 60/40 used
> several times, however using the
numbers in the service manual
> gross axle
> weights --- Vs.
gross vehicle weights ] I get a split of 54/46. Just
> wondering if
the 60/40 is a real world number. The gross wt. number is
> vehicle weight
plus four 180# occupants but I don't know if their
> weight is
> a
50/50 distribution.
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------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:10:16 -0700
From: "james berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Team3S:
suspension upgrade
A post script to my last message. --- using
Barry Kings 550 front spring
rate as a standard he would have a 63/37 split
using 550/320 #/in springs
while a true 60/40 would use 550/370 #/in springs.
My values calculated from
the manual would result in a 550/470 rate to
provide a 54/46 split. BTW
the stock rates [from the book] are 220/157
for a 58/42 split. The range for
the rears is 320 to 470 depending on the
actual front to rear bias.It may be
as Mr...King states that the rear rate is
not that significant however, if
anyone has any additional input I would
appreciate response.
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------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:17:56 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
suspension upgrade
For anyone concerned with weight biasing, keep in mind
also that the height
adjustment feature of the GC system will allow you to
dictate a certain
amount of weight transfer from front to rear or corner to
corner for that
matter. Furthermore spring preload can be adjusted to
further tweak either
end's response.
Actually, now that I think of it,
375 lb rear springs were something Jay and
I discussed and we talked about
going as low as 275-300. I chose to keep
the rear a little stiffer
without getting too carried away.
For street use I would think a more
balanced setup would provide the most
comfortable feel -- it is more like
what one expects from a street vehicle.
I usually prefer the front end to be
more taught to since it tends to keep
the suspension geometry more in line
under heavy braking and in turns.
I currently run 1 degree of negative
camber up front -- the most I could
squeeze out of the stock adjusters such
as they are -- but will be
running -1.5 once the camber plates are
installed. Rear is whatever stock
happened to be. I will notch
the rear to get more adjustment if need be but
I am not concerned about it
since the rear geometry plays less of a role in
steering stability. The
rear can be off a fair bit and still feel great,
but if the front is off the
car can feel like a plow. Corner balancing and
front/rear weight
transfer is higher on my priorty list than rear
camber.
Regards,
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
>
> A post script to my last message. --- using
Barry Kings 550 front spring
> rate as a standard he would have a 63/37
split using 550/320 #/in springs
> while a true 60/40 would use 550/370
#/in springs. My values
> calculated from
> the manual would result
in a 550/470 rate to provide a 54/46 split. BTW
> the stock
rates [from the book] are 220/157 for a 58/42 split.
> The range
for
> the rears is 320 to 470 depending on the actual front to
rear
> bias.It may be
> as Mr...King states that the rear rate is
not that significant however, if
> anyone has any additional input I would
appreciate response.
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------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 6 Feb 1999 05:51:50 EST
From: PFloyd91@aol.com
Subject: Team3S:
Re: RIP Mitsubishi 3000 GT
Hey Scott,
Thanks for putting my
thoughts about these cars into words. You've
pretty well summed it up, darned
near word for word.
For me it was love at first sight when the 3000s
first hit the road,
and, finally after almost ten years of desperation, I
got my dream
car this past December 12th.
A '95 3000GT Black 5
speed, with Mits Chrome Wheels,
Michelin 245/45 ZR 17 tires with maybe 5k
miles on 'em,
40K on the odometer, Infinity Stereo with equalizer and a
six disc changer. It was a lease turn in that was driven by
some hot
little babe who left just a hint of her perfume smell
in the car that comes
out of the upholstery on warm days
- --- the car was, and is, immaculate.
Man, this sure sounds
like every boy's dream doesn't it?
I do intend
to keep the car forever, and in a way I almost hate
taking it on the road for
fear of all the idiots out there who might
run into it, some because they're
staring at the car --- oh well,
we all have to take chances. I can
truly say there isn't another
vehicle on the road I would rather
drive.
Oh yeah, I worked my way up to it too, by driving a really
nice
'93 Silver Eclipse (Poor Man's 3000) for four years.
As long as
I'm writing --- I'm way behind most of you guys in
terms of your technical
knowledge and expertise. The most
challenging automotive experience in my
resume' is putting
headers on a '76 Jeep CJ5 about 17 years ago. Altho' I
did
do my own clutch replacement on the Jeep and a couple of
Volkswagen
Beetles back in the early 70's.
My question is this --- do you guys mind
a few "cosmetic"
type questions from time to time, such as there is a
faint
amount of clouding on the inside of the glass headlight
"fairings",
up above the headlights. And, of course, this
looks twice as bad on a black
car. I don't want to screw
anything up by popping them off for cleaning, I'm
afraid
that might make the situation worse --- any suggestions??
I
have a few other similar questions, but let's just go with
that one
first.
John
<<Original Message>>
In a message
dated 2/5/99 4:25:01 PM Central Standard Time, sjc0u812@juno.com
writes:
<<
I think you're missing my point here. I saved my last cent to
get this
car. I also borrowed form Peter, robbed Paul, etc.
It's truly my
favorite thing in life right now, next to my kids.
I do everything I can
for this car, as really it's much more than a
transportation issue to me.
But you knew that. This is strictly
from my wallet's stand point, and
the fact if it does go down, I
unfortunately don't have the kind of money
where I can afford to
replace it with anything else reasonable at this
time. I would
really prefer to never drive another kind of car, now that
I've owned
one, and drive it every day through sun and snow.
Appreciate
it? I guess I take issue with you and that statement,
or I wouldn't be
here to begin with. It's strictly a matter of I
strung myself out here
quite a bit here to capture one and maintain it,
and odds are it looks
like that expense may go up. I was simply
trying to, as usual, ask
questions, get opinions, and share and help in
any way I can with my
other fellow Team 3S members. I realize I
don't have a ton of experience
working on these cars, but I do love
them, and try real hard to do what I
can with what I have to work
with. But sometimes, love can even go bad.
If I could work out
owning one of these cars forever, I surely would. I
guess I just
haven't hit the lotto yet. Hope that clears up my
point.
Scott >>
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info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 06 Feb 1999 10:18:02 -0500
From: Michael Booker <mrbook@gate.net>
Subject: Team3S: Cam
profiles: R/T vs. R/T TT
What is the difference in the cam profiles for
an NA R/T, and a TT?
Because there are no aftermarket cams available, would
using TT cams be
beneficial, or would the lift and duration be too much where
the valves
and piston would have a "coming together"? I remember a post a
while
back about the cams for a 91-91 VR-4 being slightly different, and
would
those work on a NT?
Matt
3/Si #311
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------------------------------
End
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