--

From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com (Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S Digest V1 #80
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Errors-To: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Precedence: bulk


Team3S Digest         Friday, January 22 1999         Volume 01 : Number 080




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:33:36 EST
From: Klusmanp@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: getrag parts

New guy on the list here, so these questions may have been asked before.

Regarding the Getrag synchros: has anyone looked into commonality between our
cars and other cars that use Getrag trannys? I know that the Toyota Supra
turbo has (or at least the previous model had...) a Getrag gearbox. Assumming
that Getrag sells parts for some of its other automotive products...

What other cars use a Getrag tranny? - BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche might be a
good place to start looking. Perhaps some of those slippery Italian cars?

A good machine shop might be able to take a little material off of a synchro
from car XX and match it to a synchro from one of our cars. Of course we would
have to find someone who was willing to open up a 3000gt/stealth transaxle and
take some measurements - suppose there might be an old, worn-out, Getrag
tranny out there somewhere we could use?

How much would Getrag be willing to help out here? Someone with connections
and a tremendous amount of diplomacy might get them to help us cross-reference
the synchros, and/or even get some dimensioned, toleranced prints for the
synchros. Yeah, I know - its a long shot... (Jack T. whaddya think?)

Ok, so lets imagine Getrag doesn't want to help and we can't find a compatible
synchro from car XX. Who else makes synchros? Is there a Ma and Pa, inc.
machine shop here in the U.S. that makes tranny parts for Ford/GM/Chrysler?
Send them some healthy synchros and ask them to duplicate them. Better yet,
lets find someone who knows a little about tranny design and see if we can
reverse engineer the synchros, then send a set of dimensioned, toleranced
prints to Ma and Pa, inc. I know someone who designs for Ford - he might hook
us up with a tranny expert.

Well, of course having a machine shop custom make synchros is going to cost
alot. Perhaps an aftermarket performance parts company (HKN,Greddy, etc.)
would be willing to place a large order (200 sets? 500 sets?) and hold the
parts in inventory to get the cost down. As long as the only alternative is a
new transaxle assembly, the synchros would probably sell quite well.

Hmmmmm...

Paul Klusman
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:54:43 -0500
From: John <adams@icx.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Regrinding the Cam pros & con question.

If you would read my post, I did not cut him down. That is probably just your
observation. In his post he didn't sound sure. I was merely commenting on that. If we
are to get nit pickey here he criticized my statement that welding was the only option,
but did not substantiate any other means. I didn't go off the deep end about that. What
I was trying to find out was what those other means were. It appears you have a
predisposition to my meanings, but if you need to comment please take it off the list
and comment personally, not in the list. I thought this was a not bashing list. When you
say "our" list, am I excluded or something? Had you replied personally, this reply would
also have been personal. And are you not putting down my ideas? Maybe we need to
practice what we preach sir.

John

Brian Danley wrote:

> John, Please leave post like this off our list.  Ideas come from people
> thinking together for a common goal.  If you would like to belittle someone
> for there Idea .. please take it to the Dragnet list.
>
> I hate sorting through mail that puts down ideas of others.
>
> Brian
>
> AKA Gammara
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:   John [SMTP:adams@icx.net]
> Sent:   Thursday, January 21, 1999 1:23 PM
> To:     stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject:        Re: Team3S: Regrinding the Cam pros & con question.
>
> It sounds like you are not quite sure HVOF would work, so we can't consider
> it unless we
> know for a fact it does. What other process were you thinking of that made
> you think
> welding wasn't the only answer. Plating would also take many coats, so what
> else?
>
> John
>
>                   Name: WINMAIL.DAT
>    WINMAIL.DAT    Type: DXPLAYER File (video/mpeg)
>               Encoding: x-uuencode
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

- --

John Adams  91 3000GT/TT VR4 Monza Red
John's Repair Center: http://user.icx.net/~adams/repair_main.htm
My Sportscar Pages: http://user.icx.net/~adams/sportscar.htm
Florida Gathering: http://user.icx.net/~adams/flmeet.htm
Cape Cod Quickening: http://user.icx.net/~adams/quickening.htm
Atlanta Gathering: http://user.icx.net/~adams/atlanta_gathering1098.htm


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 18:27:53 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Another Question Concerning "Well that was fun..."

The reason for mounting an engine transversly practical.  It more easily
accomodates FWD transaxle design.  So yes, you are right, the SL and base
are better off with transversely mounted engines from a simplicity of design
standpoint.

Since the VR4 shares the same basic platform with the FWD stable mates it
makes economic sense to make the VR4 transversely mounted as well.  Beyond
that there is really not any great technical reason for doing so.  AWD is as
easily accomodated with an inline mount as well and in fact transversely
mounted engines tend to exacerbate torque steer, a phenomenon that I
personally detest.  The only FWD vehicles I have driven (although there may
be others) that did not exhibit pronounced torque steer were higher end
Acura sedans.  The SL, FWD Eclipses, Honda and any others all have terrible
torque steer.  Exciting but annoying.

The VR4 also exhibits torque steer but to a much lesser degree.  It became
more noticable on my car after the 15Gs, injectors etc.

The rear mounted engine in the Porsche "911" style cars is mounted with the
crank inline as are the mid-engine Ferraris, Lambos etc.


Regards,

Barry


> -----Original Message-----
> On Jan 21, Barry E. King said:
> > Hehe.  S'okay.
> >
> > "Wrong Wheel Drive" which is what some people call FWD (Front
> Wheel Drive)
> > configurations.  Also, transversely mounted engines are
> sometimes referred
> > to as being "mounted the wrong way".
>
> Aren't they mounted that way so power could be transferred to the driving
> wheels in an easy manner?  I guess the VR-4 coulda gone either
> way, but the
> SL/Base/RT cars are better-off mounted the wrong way.  right?
>
> The NSX has a transverse-mounted engine.  Hm...dunno about the Porsche.
>
> -sankar

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 03:54:45 +0100
From: Kevin Clark <Kevin.Clark@hnz.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Which could it be: Clutch or Trans...

Just to update you all...

The local Mitsi dealer has just got back to me and they
feel it is a broken shaft within the transmission.  They
are going to pull the whole thing apart next week  :(

Cheers,
Kevin Clark
'91 GTO-VR4   <-- hoping that the warrentee company pays out!
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:52:40 -0500
From: Ron Thompson <rtetetet@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Which could it be: Clutch or Trans...

Sounds like a clutch. I did this on a Triumph
Spitfire, out running a VW bug at a light. I blew
all the vanes lining etc off the clutch plate so
all that was left was the spline core. I thought
at first it was the main trany shaft till I pulled
the trany and found NO clutch. Pulling into a
station doesn't sound like enough strain to take
it out but you just can't tell.

Ron
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:57:19 -0500
From: Ron Thompson <rtetetet@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Question Concerning "Well that was fun..."

> But just to satisfy my morbid curiosity... What kind of tires do you
> have on that beast?

Let's see, stock Yoko's 245/40ZR18's with 3300
miles. Pavement was damp and I had a little too
much power down.
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 01:21:51 -0500
From: Ron Thompson <rtetetet@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Well that was fun...long

This is what they taught us at skip barber.
>
> If the rear of your car is braking loose aceleration will transfer
> weight to the rear tires and plant them immediately. 

Yes basically but to a greater degree it is wheel
speed. When the rear swings out you have lost
lateral traction from lateral G force and
overpowering the wheels. When you just step off
the gas, you do the same in reverse by
decelerating the wheels or under powering which
mismatches wheel speed to vehicle speed and still
gives you lack of traction. This is called
compression braking and trailing throttle over
steer. Ever stepped off going into a turn and have
the rear swing out? Many a inexperienced Porche
owner has been towed off Mid Ohio and other road
courses during schools and track time because they
got in too deep and stepped off the gas. This
happens in any car that has, higher compression
and little to no flywheel inertia to smooth out
the transition from power to no power. It's like
pulling on the e-brake.

"When in doubt gas it", is a motorcycle racing
rule of thumb. If you are sliding in a turn, add
power, slide back over the rear tire, and wrestle
the bars. You will either power out, or slide out
because you have unloaded the frame torque and
kept the rear wheel from doing the meanest of all
things, sliding to a point of lateral traction and
high siding you. This is that picturesk maneuver
where the bike pitches you through the air to the
outside of the turn and cart wheels after you. You
do transfer weight rearward and if you do it right
it's either a power slide or it wheelies and you
ride the rear tire out of the turn. Now what does
this have to do with a car and the price of eggs
in Albany?

Same physics, The car is going to high side of
sorts. The point wear deceleration and lateral
traction meet and it snaps back the other
direction. You don't want to be there. This starts
the fish tailing and if you over correct or your
counter steering timing isn't matching the swings,
you could lose it completely. There was a list
member who described an incident with a van, a
ditch and a mail box a while back that is just
this situation. To counter act this you add
throttle if you're off the gas or back off some
and then power out to get a controlled slide so
the car doesn't snap back. The AWD cars have the
advantage of getting pull from the front as well.
In FWD cars it's a must because you are
compression braking the front wheels so the tail
keeps coming around. The chassis is also being
loaded and twisted in this situation. Roger
mentioned heel and toeing the car through. To see
what I mean, go through a turn in 2nd gear under
some power, and then just step off the gas. You
will notice the body roll increase and feel the
side walls of the tires flex more. You have just
changed the weight bias and frame stress of the
car and so the suspension geometry. Not a good
idea in the middle of a turn let alone in the
middle of a slide.

Skip Barber probably taught that you Brake and
down shift for the turn first before you enter,
cut to the apex and apply power from the apex out.
Real hot shoes will carry braking into the turn
and set the suspension with the throttle at the
same time and power out. This is real heel and toe
driving and takes tons of practice.

The whole point of my post is I forgot that
aggressive driving is 100% attention and you must
be almost as aggressive to get out of what you got
yourself into. Mikael is right, find a parking lot
and test the limits and reactions of you and your
car, it will most likely save you pain and
suffering. These cars are very forgiving to a
degree, and we can be lulled into a comfort that
is dangerous. We all slam SUV drivers for thinking
they are invincible, we know they aren't. My roads
a too full of idiots for me to relax the way I
did, I don't want to hear any of you did either,
our cars mean too much to us to loose them to a
lapse of reason.

Sorry to ramble and preach, but I thought it might
save one or more of us an incident.

Happy motoring.
Ron
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:12:21 EST
From: Lomcevak@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Another Question Concerning "Well that was fun..."

In a message dated 99-01-21 20:29:09 EST, you write:

<<  as
 easily accomodated with an inline mount as well and in fact transversely
 mounted engines tend to exacerbate torque steer >>
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:15:26 EST
From: Lomcevak@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Another Question Concerning "Well that was fun..."

In a message dated 99-01-21 20:29:09 EST, you write:

<<  AWD is as
 easily accomodated with an inline mount as well and in fact transversely
 mounted engines tend to exacerbate torque steer >>

  I am curious how the configuration of the engine mounting can have any
affect on a vehicle's torque steer. Seems like torque steer would be a
function of the of transaxle and suspension design - which could be built the
same way regardless of which way the engine sits. ?
   
   SteveC
   '91 3000GT SL
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 07:44:26 -0700
From: Andrew Brilliant <andrew@attitudeink.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Well that was fun...long

>

- -snip-

> and little to no flywheel inertia to smooth out
> the transition from power to no power. It's like
> pulling on the e-brake.

Interesting, is there way you could modify your car to smooth that out.  An aluminum
flywheel, with less weight, would that allow better engine brake transitions?  Usually
some heal-toe action eliminates this problem, but my Vr4 kind of jerky even just around
town from that.

> it's either a power slide or it wheelies and you
> ride the rear tire out of the turn. Now what does
> this have to do with a car and the price of eggs
> in Albany?

At school our instructor told us about the half day new-drivers school.  For 16 year old
children, who have just recieved their drivers liscense (or death warrant whichever term
works fine).  He tells them that if they start spinning to gun it.  The reason is
simple, it is the only single instruction that they would remember, and be able to
execute that is the least likely to save their lives.  I think I agree with that.  I'd
rather drivers ed was a 6 month course, but since it's not...

> Skip Barber probably taught that you Brake and
> down shift for the turn first before you enter,
> cut to the apex and apply power from the apex out.
> Real hot shoes will carry braking into the turn
> and set the suspension with the throttle at the
> same time and power out. This is real heel and toe
> driving and takes tons of practice.

Yeah brake & DS simultaneous.  Heal, toe took alot of practice, and I'm still terrible
at it. The only thing I think was harder than heal toe was left foot braking.

> our cars mean too much to us to loose them to a
> lapse of reason.
>
> Sorry to ramble and preach, but I thought it might
> save one or more of us an incident.
>

No worries, 10 seconds of talking, a world of hurt, sounds like a good trade-off.  Of
course it is handy to know we have a little more weight than the average sports car, and
could do some hefty damage to that SUV.  But my personal favorite is how we have double
the horsepower.

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 08:51:55 -0600
From: Wayne <wala@hypertech-inc.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Another Question Concerning "Well that was fun..."

At 09:15 AM 1/22/99 -0500, lomcevak wrote:

>  I am curious how the configuration of the engine mounting can have any
>affect on a vehicle's torque steer. Seems like torque steer would be a
>function of the of transaxle and suspension design - which could be built the
>same way regardless of which way the engine sits. ?

You're absolutly right, it's not a function of the engine configuration. If
there was a vehicle out there that had a rear mount engine and FWD, it
would exibit torque steer as well. It's just that there arent any FWD cars
that have a paralell mounted engine (which would also have T.S.) so it's
blamed on the engine, when it's actually the drive wheels. Good observation.

Wayne 

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 08:40:13 PST
From: "Shattered Soul" <shadowphantom_1@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: getrag parts

I don't know to much about trannys.  Or even what the synchros look
like.  But I do have access to CNC machines at my work.  Maybe someone
can send me a picture or tell me what is involved.  I may be able to
help out.  I run software called WorkNC which makes cutter paths for
CNC's.  If someone can surface the part I can make it.  Or at least give
me some prints I can have someone here at work surface it for me. But
like I said I dont even know what these things look like yet.  I can
have things cut within a fairly high tolerance, say .0005. 

Chris


>A good machine shop might be able to take a little material off of a
synchro
>from car XX and match it to a synchro from one of our cars. Of course
we would
>have to find someone who was willing to open up a 3000gt/stealth
transaxle and
>take some measurements - suppose there might be an old, worn-out,
Getrag
>tranny out there somewhere we could use?
>
>How much would Getrag be willing to help out here? Someone with
connections
>and a tremendous amount of diplomacy might get them to help us
cross-reference
>the synchros, and/or even get some dimensioned, toleranced prints for
the
>synchros. Yeah, I know - its a long shot... (Jack T. whaddya think?)
>
>Ok, so lets imagine Getrag doesn't want to help and we can't find a
compatible
>synchro from car XX. Who else makes synchros? Is there a Ma and Pa,
inc.
>machine shop here in the U.S. that makes tranny parts for
Ford/GM/Chrysler?
>Send them some healthy synchros and ask them to duplicate them. Better
yet,
>lets find someone who knows a little about tranny design and see if we
can
>reverse engineer the synchros, then send a set of dimensioned,
toleranced
>prints to Ma and Pa, inc. I know someone who designs for Ford - he
might hook
>us up with a tranny expert.
>
>Well, of course having a machine shop custom make synchros is going to
cost
>alot. Perhaps an aftermarket performance parts company (HKN,Greddy,
etc.)
>would be willing to place a large order (200 sets? 500 sets?) and hold
the
>parts in inventory to get the cost down. As long as the only
alternative is a
>new transaxle assembly, the synchros would probably sell quite well.


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 08:55:10 PST
From: "Shattered Soul" <shadowphantom_1@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: getrag parts

One more thing.  We also have a CMM.  With an original part it can be
reverse engineered.  The CMM can pick points all over the part or use a
laser to do a cloud data scan to get its dimensions.


Chris

>
>I don't know to much about trannys.  Or even what the synchros look
>like.  But I do have access to CNC machines at my work.  Maybe someone
>can send me a picture or tell me what is involved.  I may be able to
>help out.  I run software called WorkNC which makes cutter paths for
>CNC's.  If someone can surface the part I can make it.  Or at least
give
>me some prints I can have someone here at work surface it for me. But
>like I said I dont even know what these things look like yet.  I can
>have things cut within a fairly high tolerance, say .0005. 
>
>Chris


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:09:34 -0600
From: Wayne <wala@hypertech-inc.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: getrag parts

At 08:40 AM 1/22/99 -0800, Chris wrote:
>But I do have access to CNC machines at my work.  I may be able to
>help out.  I run software called WorkNC which makes cutter paths for
>CNC's.

If someone were to send me a good part, i could whip up a solid model in
AutoCAD and send the file to chris in a format WorkNC could translate.

Wayne

P.S. I have a connection who is having output shafts and x-fer case input
shafts made for both versions of spline sizes if anybody is interested. I
think he has a few ready to ship.


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:04:50 -0600
From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: getrag parts

I would have to have the syncros back, but I would volunteer my set of
syncros & hubs for R&D.

Let me know what you are planning to do.  I have 1,2,3,4 syncros. They fit
both the 5 speed and 6 speed trannys.

> Brad
Member of ESSC since 1999>
> Check out my home page:    http://lonestar.texas.net/~bbedell
> E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com ICQ#  3612682


- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com] On Behalf Of Shattered Soul
Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 10:55 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: getrag parts

One more thing.  We also have a CMM.  With an original part it can be
reverse engineered.  The CMM can pick points all over the part or use a
laser to do a cloud data scan to get its dimensions.


Chris

>
>I don't know to much about trannys.  Or even what the synchros look
>like.  But I do have access to CNC machines at my work.  Maybe someone
>can send me a picture or tell me what is involved.  I may be able to
>help out.  I run software called WorkNC which makes cutter paths for
>CNC's.  If someone can surface the part I can make it.  Or at least
give
>me some prints I can have someone here at work surface it for me. But
>like I said I dont even know what these things look like yet.  I can
>have things cut within a fairly high tolerance, say .0005.
>
>Chris


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 09:42:35 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <middaugh@omega.gat.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Well that was fun...long

Ron Thompson wrote:
>
> This is what they taught us at skip barber.
> >
> > If the rear of your car is braking loose aceleration will transfer
> > weight to the rear tires and plant them immediately.
>
> Yes basically but to a greater degree it is wheel
> speed. When the rear swings out you have lost

Actually, tire grip is the most fundamental principal here.  The maximum
tire grip can be exceeded by both weight transfer (less weight on tire =
smaller grip) or by the tire spinning slower or faster than the road.
Good posts Andrew & Ron.
- --

Ken Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 12:25 -0600
From: Jeff A Williamson <Jeff.A.Williamson@jci.com>
Subject: Team3S: Clutch Fluid Question

I'm geeting ready to bleed the clutch hydraulic system. The manual says to use
a DOT3 or DOT4 fluid, and does not recommend mixing the different types. Does
anyone know the original type of fluid (from the factory) used on the first
generation VR4?  Otherwise I'll have to drain, flush, and re-fill the whole
system. Thanks.

Jeff Williamson
Belleville, MI
'92 VR4

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:30:37 -0700
From: "Michael O'Krancy" <mokrancy@renaissance.ca>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Regrinding the Cam pros & con question.

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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> ----------
> From: Team3S
> Digest[SMTP:owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com]
> Sent: 21 January, 1999 4:19 PM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Regrinding the Cam pros & con question.
>
>
>
To the gentleman who was looking for a way to increase the intensity of the
headlights on his 91 VR4 about a week ago.  I may have a possible solution
for you.  Within the last week I lost both of the headlights on my 91STT.  I
agree with your point about these factory sealed lamps being far too dim.
They are about $16.00 CDN a piece to replace here so what's that in American
funds,.... about $1.06?  Anyway,  while looking for new brighter options I
stumbled upon a kit made by Bosch.  The kit includes two lamp housings that
look identical to factory however they are only housings, not a sealed
lamps.  This allows for the changing of the bulbs to which many, much
brighter, options are open.  The kit up here is $125.00 CDN.  which works
out to about $82 bones for you Yankee types.  I am picking mine up tommorow.
Hope this helps.

Later

mike

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Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:41:54 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Team3S: Regrinding the Cam pros & con question.

Mike;

I haven't had to change mine yet, but my Brother in Law had one burn out,
flipped at Chrysler prices, and just changed the hardware inside with a
jobber/after market setup and now he's into cheap bulb replacements. I believe
he said the whole replacement with aftermarket harware and bulbs was around $50
cdn...for our American veiwers, read "Cheap"!!  Look into it before picking up
yours tommorow, unless you like the name Bosch (which nobody can read inside the
fixture).

Best

Darc

Michael O'Krancy wrote:

snip

>  Anyway,  while looking for new brighter options I
> stumbled upon a kit made by Bosch.  The kit includes two lamp housings that
> look identical to factory however they are only housings, not a sealed
> lamps.  This allows for the changing of the bulbs to which many, much
> brighter, options are open.  The kit up here is $125.00 CDN.  which works
> out to about $82 bones for you Yankee types.  I am picking mine up tommorow.
> Hope this helps.
>
> Later
>
>
>



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