--

From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com (Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S Digest V1 #68
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Errors-To: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Precedence: bulk


Team3S Digest         Friday, January 8 1999         Volume 01 : Number 068




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 09:22:47 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <middaugh@omega.gat.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Wastegate Actuators?

> What would you guess at the problem being if I'm unable exceed 11psi? (Even
> in learning mode on EVC) (A plugged, crimped or disconnected hose would do
> the opposite correct?)

Is your blow off valve the original stock unit?   They have been known
to leak although at typically higher psi.  Also, did you make sure all
your intercooler hoses and Y-Pipe hose are tight?

- --

Ken Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 19:20:45 +0000
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Wastegate Actuators?

> GT said: If the hose to the actuators was removed I'd get boost until fuel
> cut, they tried this and still got only 11psi.

This is true, as the wastegates would never open.

> They used a air compressor to show the front wastegate moving but thought
> the rear was bad.

So they did not prove if the rear one is good or not ?

> I can't get over about 11psi with an HKS evc, even with the hoses they
> say should make the car run boost until fuel cut disconnected it maxes at
> 11...

Well, this is a very rude test as it could damage your car ! Stay away from
doing this.

Take the advice of the messages before and test the wastegate actuator. If it is
working fine, then search a leak anywhere in the IC piping, bypass valve,
y-pipe. I remember a guy who had a small crack in one IC rubber pipe and it blew
off all pressure over 9 psi.

> What would you guess at the problem being if I'm unable exceed 11psi? (Even
> in learning mode on EVC) (A plugged, crimped or disconnected hose would do
> the opposite correct?)

Only if the hose leads to the WG actuators. All other leak in the after-turbo
path causes a loss.

> _Thanks for the quick and informed answer, wish there was a qualified shop
> around here. Its something I don't understand and am losing patience with
> and I'm certainly not enjoying the car as much as I should be...

I'm sorry not to be of more help for you but I'm positive that you'll find out
the problem. Changing the rear WG actuator with it's lever attached looks very
complicated for me (with the turbo in the car). Also a new one is stupidly,
horrible expensive (more than $200 here). If you need one, try to get it from a
salvage yard.

Good luck,
Roger

- -----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:03:05 -0800
From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
Subject: Team3S: New clutch, rebuilt tranny, now what?

Just a quick request for some advice:

Just got my 95 3k back yesterday and had the following stuff done...any
special precautions/ways to treat the car during the next few weeks?


New stock clutch
Rebuilt 5-speed  (1st & 2nd synchros, bearings replaced)
New water pump
New belts (timing, p/s, a/c)

The service advisor at the dealership said that there's no break-in required
for the stock clutch, but I still plan to baby it for 500 miles or so(no
more than 4000 RPM, slip only as needed to prevent bucking).  Any other
stuff to be aware/careful of?


- --Erik
'95 3k 47,000 miles, resonatorless, w/ busted head unit mod
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:23:58 -0500
From: "Trent" <rtrent@nlci.com>
Subject: Team3S: Flat Spot Revisited

All,
Sorry about the HTML, didn't even know what it meant.  I switched to Plain
Text in my brouser.  Hopefully this is correct.
Thanks for the responses, I'm including some additional info as per Rogers
request.
Prior to installing the 13g's, running an AVC-R, bypassed cat (for testing
only of course), FIPK, and .032 plug gap, any attempts to run over 1.1 bar
resulted in what I felt as noticable ignition retard.  To exceed 1.1
resulted in even more noticable power loss above 4000.
While installing the 13g's, I installed an EGT in the back manifold before
the turbine and gutted the pre-cats (for testing only of course) and cleaned
up some of the weld on the pre-cat manifolds.  I also installed an AFC and a
260 lph fuel pump, but held off on the injectors just to confirm if the
stock units were undersized (360cc stamped on the stock injector).  The
results were dissapointing, power improved slightly but the ignition retard
was still occuring at 1.1+.  Additionally, on one 3rd gear WOT run my EGT
hit 950 C.  Finally convinced, fooled by the O2 reading saying I was rich, I
installed the RC 500's.  WOW...the flood gates were opened, even at 1.05 bar
the power increase was significant by comparison.  I've tested up to 1.3 bar
with no noticable retard, boost is now limited by the 13g's inability to
hold 1.25+ in the lower gears.  Using the EGT, and the AFC, I've dialed in
900 C at WOT with no problems (aside from the low throttle flat spot).

Regards,
DaveT/92TT

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 17:53:57 -0500
From: Brian Danley <bcdmad@concentric.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Fw: Wastegate Actuators?

This is the best way to test this (the pump).  Does it sound like it's just
blowing off air? Is may one stuck open?  Is the stock Boost solenoid
 totally disconnected?  (Don't think it would help/matter much either way).
 Did the spring in you BOV go bad or weaken (making it open when under
load)?

> The wastegate actuator should begin moving at 6.8 PSI.  A tool
> that you can make yourself will be helpful in confirming this.

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http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:03:58 -0500
From: Brian Danley <bcdmad@concentric.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 2500-3000 Flat spot

[Brian Danley]  Mine will only run 1.1- 1.9 bars and at 1.2 I always
(unless it's a real quick burst) get detonation.  Sometimes even at 1.09
bar I'll get detonation.  I use good gas and have no cat's and a downpipe,
13c turbos and a Blitz DSBC.  I think my problem is fuel.  Any input from
13g users with higher PSI/BAR results without adding fuel?


Thanks,
Brian
Fuel mods coming  soon...very soon...:)


Oh Yea, anyone know how to turn the win.dat think off in Outlook before the
list police get me?


What I don't understand is why you have not been able to pull 1.1+ bars.
What
happens then ? I was able to push up to unhealthy 1.25bars until hesitation
and
fuel cut stopped me.



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:03:49 -0500
From: "Meyer" <meyer2@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 2500-3000 Flat spot

When we ran 13Gs with stock fuel 1.1 bar was the limit.  We burned up a few
pistons trying to go higher.  Now running 15Gs with 550RCs, pump and fuel
rail upgrades and AFC.  Ran great for a while but now is breaking up at 4000
rpm at anything over 1.3 bar with 115 octane.  The funny part is if you
unplug the MAS it runs great.  Any Ideas?
Frank
- -----Original Message-----
From: Brian Danley <bcdmad@concentric.net>
To: 'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com' <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Thursday, January 07, 1999 7:09 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: 2500-3000 Flat spot


>
>[Brian Danley]  Mine will only run 1.1- 1.9 bars and at 1.2 I always
>(unless it's a real quick burst) get detonation.  Sometimes even at 1.09
>bar I'll get detonation.  I use good gas and have no cat's and a downpipe,
>13c turbos and a Blitz DSBC.  I think my problem is fuel.  Any input from
>13g users with higher PSI/BAR results without adding fuel?
>
>
>Thanks,
>Brian
>Fuel mods coming  soon...very soon...:)
>
>
>Oh Yea, anyone know how to turn the win.dat think off in Outlook before the
>list police get me?
>
>
>What I don't understand is why you have not been able to pull 1.1+ bars.
>What
>happens then ? I was able to push up to unhealthy 1.25bars until hesitation
>and
>fuel cut stopped me.
>
>

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:30:11 -0800
From: "bill" <compren@lightspeed.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Fw: Wastegate Actuators?

They installed, corrected my installation of a Blitz BOV (Which made no
sound) at the sametime that they installed the EVC and "found" this 11psi
problem, if there's ANY way that the BOV could be involved they certainly
could have messed it up and caused the problem.  Is there anyway the bov
could be adjusted incorrectly or broken to cause this problem?  (I do hear
the normal hiss (from the bov) after getting on the gas and then getting off
it...)

Stock solenoid I believe is totally disconnected, again not being my are of
expertise I thought I had gotten someone to help me with it...Heh.

>This is the best way to test this (the pump).  Does it sound like it's just
>blowing off air? Is may one stuck open?  Is the stock Boost solenoid
> totally disconnected?  (Don't think it would help/matter much either way).
> Did the spring in you BOV go bad or weaken (making it open when under
load)?


- -Again,

thanks for the enthusiastic help, I want to start enjoying this car...

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:48:29 -0500
From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 2500-3000 Flat spot

I had 13Gs and stock injectors w/VPC.  The most boost I could run was 20
(1.36 bars?) PSI when the motor was cool (at the track) and 18 PSI with it
was hot (street driving).  At the track, fuel was 100 octane mixed 50/50
with 93 octane pump.  Best E.T. was 12.40's.  Switched to 550 injectors and
went 11.80's with 13G's.  I found a huge difference with the 550's - far
better than I expected.

On a VPC-equipped car, the "flat spot" is very likely to be fuel related.
Case in point, after I got my motor put back together with REAL COMPRESSION
in all 6 cyls, with the street chip VPC EPROM I notice a pronounced lag all
the way to 5000 RPM before the power kicks in.  Never felt it before because
the car just wasn't that fast.  Switch to the race EPROM and the power comes
on hard at 2500 and pulls all the way to 7500.

It's been said that larger injectors sometimes deliver too much fuel at the
low end.  You could be seeing that with the AFC setup.

- -Bob

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:45:52 -0800
From: "bill" <compren@lightspeed.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Wastegate Actuators?

>
>So they did not prove if the rear one is good or not ?

Would I be looking for one that stayed open?  As staying closed would give
me more not less boost correct?

>Take the advice of the messages before and test the wastegate actuator. If
it is
>working fine, then search a leak anywhere in the IC piping, bypass valve,
y-pipe. I remember a guy who had a small crack in one IC rubber pipe and it
blew off all pressure over 9 psi.


Wouldn't a leak cause the actuators to see less pressure and actually give
me more boost? or is this after that? Anyway to detect something stupid like
a y pipe leak?  (After gt's little y-pipe upgrade to fix the plastic one
supposedly flying off on other cars, theirs came loose enough to lose all
boost twice...)

Any califronia people with a respectable shop that they think could fix this
between LA and San Fran please let me know as well...

- -Still more thanks

- -Bill


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:50:04 -0800
From: "bill" <compren@lightspeed.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Wastegate Actuators?

Blitz BOV, though problem seemed to start when it was installed by GT, could
it be the cause in anyway? "Y" pipe is notorious leaker, it has a huge clamp
on it as twice it's come loose enough to cause NO boost.  (Body flex from
Convertible  I think....)

>Is your blow off valve the original stock unit?


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:57:55 -0800
From: "bill" <compren@lightspeed.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Fw: Wastegate Actuators?

The problem with that answer, in my mind is, I seem to have the opposite
problem.  If it didn't move I would get unlimited boost, I'm stuck with
limited boost.  So I'd bel looking for no movement because it's already
jammed open correct?

>The wastegate acutator arm will begin moving when the pressure in the line
connected to the actuator is 6.8 PSI.


- -Bill

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:35:24 -0500
From: Brian Danley <bcdmad@concentric.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Fw: Wastegate Actuators?

Correct.  If the wastegates are stuck closed you will over boost, with them
open you will be "dumping" most the boost into the exhaust.  So they could
be stuck open.  Either way they should move.  If not there is a problem. It
could also be a problem between the turbo and the intercooler.  Maybe a
slipped hose.

The problem with that answer, in my mind is, I seem to have the opposite
problem.  If it didn't move I would get unlimited boost, I'm stuck with
limited boost.  So I'd bel looking for no movement because it's already
jammed open correct?



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 22:44:23 -0500
From: Marc Jaffe <marc@marcjaffe.com>
Subject: Team3S: still have anti lock brake issues

Hey Guys,
As previously mentioned i still have the anti lock light coming on, but
it is not consistant, is not because of the battery(new york and cold!),
and goes away when i restart the car.if that does not help i turn the
key on and off 10 times and it goes away. it may stop for a couple of
days
Any ideas?
Marc

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:51:25 -0800
From: "Bill" <compren@lightspeed.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Fw: Wastegate Actuators?

In anyone's mind would one wastegate being stuck open cause 11psi?

Or rather 5 or or almost no effect or no guess?  (Since we know the front
one is working perfectly...)

>Correct.  If the wastegates are stuck closed you will over boost, with them
>open you will be "dumping" most the boost into the exhaust.  So they could
>be stuck open.


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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:51:19 -0500
From: Brian Danley <bcdmad@concentric.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Fw: Wastegate Actuators?

I think so.

In anyone's mind would one wastegate being stuck open cause 11psi?

Or rather 5 or or almost no effect or no guess?  (Since we know the front
one is working perfectly...)




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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:57:54 -0500
From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Fw: Wastegate Actuators?

Yes, if it was partially open.  But there are other things that could just
as likely causes the problem, such as an I/C hose leak.  In my opinion, the
stock BOV is not the problem.  The way the stock BOV is designed, the more
boost there is, the less chance it will leak.  That is because the valve is
pre-loaded to 5 lbs and uses boost pressure to keep it closed.

- -Bob

> In anyone's mind would one wastegate being stuck open cause 11psi?
>
> Or rather 5 or or almost no effect or no guess?  (Since we know the front
> one is working perfectly...)
>
> >Correct.  If the wastegates are stuck closed you will over
> boost, with them
> >open you will be "dumping" most the boost into the exhaust.  So
> they could be stuck open.

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 20:16:35 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Team3S: Fw: Wastegate Actuators?

On a related note, Bob, if the stock BOV doesn't leak (unless the clamp blows) then what
is the hooting noise reported by Jim, Errin, and others when using their BOV stock
setups? Mine is also a stock BOV and I don't get this noise. Puzzling.

Darc

Bob Fontana wrote:

> Yes, if it was partially open.  But there are other things that could just
> as likely causes the problem, such as an I/C hose leak.  In my opinion, the
> stock BOV is not the problem.  The way the stock BOV is designed, the more
> boost there is, the less chance it will leak.  That is because the valve is
> pre-loaded to 5 lbs and uses boost pressure to keep it closed.
>



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:27:12 -0500
From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Fw: Wastegate Actuators?

If it's the same "whoooooo" noise that I used to get, I tracked it down to a
poorly connected brake or clutch boost check valve that tends to chatter
when making the transition between vacuum and boost.  Since the check valve
only opens when vacuum is present, I was able to repeatedly duplicate the
problem whenever I pressed on the gas ever so lightly while cruising
(causing the boost guage to go from -7Hg to +1 or +2 PSI).  To fix it, I
replaced all my little brake and clutch boost check valve hoses and the
problem disappeared.

- -Bob

> On a related note, Bob, if the stock BOV doesn't leak (unless the
> clamp blows) then what
> is the hooting noise reported by Jim, Errin, and others when
> using their BOV stock
> setups? Mine is also a stock BOV and I don't get this noise. Puzzling.
>

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 23:42:23 -0500
From: "Bob Rand" <rtr@vnet.net>
Subject: Team3S: Re: New clutch, rebuilt tranny, now what?

You are on the right track,  500 miles is the magic number.

Bob
93 Stealth TT
- -----Original Message-----
From: Gross, Erik <erik.gross@intel.com>
To: 'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com' <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Thursday, January 07, 1999 2:06 PM
Subject: New clutch, rebuilt tranny, now what?


>Just a quick request for some advice:
>
>Just got my 95 3k back yesterday and had the following stuff done...any
>special precautions/ways to treat the car during the next few weeks?
>
>
>New stock clutch
>Rebuilt 5-speed  (1st & 2nd synchros, bearings replaced)
>New water pump
>New belts (timing, p/s, a/c)
>
>The service advisor at the dealership said that there's no break-in
required
>for the stock clutch, but I still plan to baby it for 500 miles or so(no
>more than 4000 RPM, slip only as needed to prevent bucking).  Any other
>stuff to be aware/careful of?
>
>
>--Erik
>'95 3k 47,000 miles, resonatorless, w/ busted head unit mod
>

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 20:49:09 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Team3S: still have anti lock brake issues

Hi Marc;

Sounds like you've covered the easy fixes. Darn eh!! There is a whole chapter devoted to
ABS problems in the manual...so it could be a short, solenoid problem, valve relay, etc,
etc. Maybe try cleaning the wheel sensors of corrison (salt, rust, etc) if you haven't
already...you may discover something when you do. If that doesn't work, consider paying
Mitsu to reset it/diagnose it for you. If that doesn't work, tell them you paid them to
fix and they didn't, and have them fix it again...yada yada yada.

Before going to Mitsu, do the following and we'll see if we can diagnose it from the
information you post back.

1) turn key to ON position....does it flash 4 times very rapidly?
2) then turn key to START position....does it remain lit?
3) then return key from START position to ON position....does it flash 4 times in about
a second again?

Get back  with the info and I'll walk you through the manual diagnostics and see if we
can pin point the problem.

Darc....Team 3S

92 TT Stealth  3Si #0145

Marc Jaffe wrote:

> Hey Guys,
> As previously mentioned i still have the anti lock light coming on, but
> it is not consistant, is not because of the battery(new york and cold!),
> and goes away when i restart the car.if that does not help i turn the
> key on and off 10 times and it goes away. it may stop for a couple of
> days
> Any ideas?
> Marc
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 20:53:28 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Team3S: Fw: Wastegate Actuators?

Bonus answer...should solve a puzzle that has puzzled many a good man. Many thanks.

Darc


Bob Fontana wrote:

> If it's the same "whoooooo" noise that I used to get, I tracked it down to a
> poorly connected brake or clutch boost check valve that tends to chatter
> when making the transition between vacuum and boost.  Since the check valve
> only opens when vacuum is present, I was able to repeatedly duplicate the
> problem whenever I pressed on the gas ever so lightly while cruising
> (causing the boost guage to go from -7Hg to +1 or +2 PSI).  To fix it, I
> replaced all my little brake and clutch boost check valve hoses and the
> problem disappeared.
>
>
>



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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:02:13 -0800
From: "Bill" <compren@lightspeed.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Fw: Wastegate Actuators?

Not stock BOV, blitz bov, could switch back to stock and see if problem goes
away...

- -Bill


In my opinion, the
>stock BOV is not the problem.  The way the stock BOV is designed, the more
>boost there is, the less chance it will leak.

Didn't mean to monopolize list first day out...


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 09:38:29 +0000
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Fw: Wastegate Actuators?

> In my opinion, the
> stock BOV is not the problem.  The way the stock BOV is designed, the more
> boost there is, the less chance it will leak.  That is because the valve is
> pre-loaded to 5 lbs and uses boost pressure to keep it closed.

The Blitz BOV setup often uses the stock BOV as well, so it could still play a
rule here.

For the stock valve, it has a small hole in it and therefore always leaking a
little. But Bob is right, the manifold pressure keeps the valve closed (the hose
that runs to the BOV). If boost goes away the pressure in the y-pipe pushes the
bypass valve open to release pressure into the intake path.

Check if the Blitz BOV is connected before the bypass valve or if it is alone.
There must be a cause why people are installing it together with the stock parts
and I think it's smoother operation. The Blitz BOV is a very quick opening
device and therefore also somewhat hard to adjust. It seems to work good when
adjusted to soft but mabye it is too soft and acts too early causing an unwanted
leak.

Go step by step with your problem eliminating one point by another (make sure
the wastegates are fully closing).

// Roger

- -----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 09:59:23 +0000
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Flat Spot Revisited

> Prior to installing the 13g's, running an AVC-R, bypassed cat (for testing
> only of course), FIPK, and .032 plug gap, any attempts to run over 1.1 bar
> resulted in what I felt as noticable ignition retard.  To exceed 1.1
> resulted in even more noticable power loss above 4000.

Exactly, retarding the timing due to detonation eats you up the power ... but
saves your engine :)

> While installing the 13g's, I installed an EGT in the back manifold before
> the turbine and gutted the pre-cats (for testing only of course) and cleaned
> up some of the weld on the pre-cat manifolds.

Very good, this is where the EGT belongs to !

> I also installed an AFC and a 260 lph fuel pump, but held off on the
> injectors just to confirm if the stock units were undersized (360cc
> stamped on the stock injector).  The results were dissapointing, power
> improved slightly but the ignition retard was still occuring at 1.1+.

When running stock injectors a bigger fuel pump doesn't help at all, but larger
ones definitely need a bigger pump . I was able to run 1.2bars without any
noticeable retard but runned into fuel cut at 1.25. Leaning it out with the AFC
caused no fuel cut but more retard (hesitation feeling, power loss).

> Additionally, on one 3rd gear WOT run my EGT hit 950 C.

Due to my ignorance I had no EGT and thought I'm fine leaning it out. As Meyer
stated I've also toasted 3 of my pistons this way.

> Finally convinced, fooled by the O2 reading saying I was rich, I
> installed the RC 500's.  WOW...the flood gates were opened, even at 1.05 bar
> the power increase was significant by comparison.  I've tested up to 1.3 bar
> with no noticable retard, boost is now limited by the 13g's inability to
> hold 1.25+ in the lower gears.  Using the EGT, and the AFC, I've dialed in
> 900 C at WOT with no problems (aside from the low throttle flat spot).

Dave, you did the right thing and I wished that I had the knowledge then ! More
fuel means richer and cools the combustion chamber to prevent the high
temperatures that cause detonation. This is a way but not good because there are
still restrictions. You went the right path and firstly removed the biggest
exhaust restrictions and tapped the EGT probe into the right location. Only a
better exhaust manifold design and some porting at the turbine housing of the
turbo would make the job perfect. Then the next step is to add fuel choosing the
injectors and pump and this is where you've seen the power comming. If you want
go higher than now the larger fuel rail, lines and filter would be the next
step.

Yours and my experience leads me to the suggestion that my EU spec 3K does come
with larger injectors in conjunction with the 13Gs. How can I find out the flow
rate of them still installed (where is the stamp ?)

For your flat spot I guess you're running way too rich in the lower end. I read
about additional injectors (Dr.Grimms 3000GT in Turbo Mag.) and it makes sense
as they are only activated when needed. It's possible that the 500's delivers
just too much fuel on low duty cycles and the AFC is probably not able to
compensate this. I just hope to be able to get this working with the 720 and the
VPC/GCC (gulp)

Later,
Roger

- -----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 11:24:48 +0000
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 2500-3000 Flat spot

> [Brian Danley]  Mine will only run 1.1- 1.9 bars and at 1.2 I always
> (unless it's a real quick burst) get detonation.  Sometimes even at 1.09
> bar I'll get detonation.  I use good gas and have no cat's and a downpipe,
> 13c turbos and a Blitz DSBC.  I think my problem is fuel.  Any input from
> 13g users with higher PSI/BAR results without adding fuel?

I was able to run up to 1.25bars with the 13G until I got fuel cut. Around
1.2bars the timing begun to be retarded depending on the weather. In the
beginning peaks of around 1.34bars where no problems.

If you are just going to add fuel and more fuel you'll misuse the fuel too much
and therefore not getting the most power out of it. I highly recommend an EGT in
the exhaust manifold to be sure going the safe way !!! As you have removed the
precats a big restriction is gone and therefore the pressure in the manifold
should be lower. Detonation is our enemy and we have to limit the restrictions
first before applying more fuel.

Also good gas is not enough. The octane rating must be higher with more boost
tahn 16psi (I lost the formula).

- -----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)

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Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:41:10 -0500
From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Fw: Wastegate Actuators?

If you blow into the top of the BOV, you hear and feel a tiny, tiny amount
of air escaping from the .125" hole.  Inhaling on it, you get a small amount
of air as well.  The amount of air exchanged, however, is not proportional
to the size of the hole, implying that there's an even SMALLER hole inside
somewhere.  It's obviously designed that way, because if you blow into the
top and cover up the hole with your finger, the leak stops, meaning that the
valve is seating properly.

Anyway, the amount of leakage is on the order of fractions of a PSI and
wouldn't affect anyone's boost.

As far as the "whooooooong" noise goes, this little leak could be the
culprit indirectly.  Not that the BOV is chattering - that's definitely one
of the clutch/brake boost check valves making noise.  But a leak anywhere in
the boost/vacuum system affects the balance of of those check valves, so I'd
suggest that you guys make sure all of the clamps are tight everywhere
before you start replacing hoses.  In my case, one the check valve hoses was
cracked right where it touched the oil feed line to the rear turbo.

I'd bet that you could plug that hole with a screw but MAKE SURE IT NEVER
WORKS ITS WAY OUT!

- -Bob


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of R.G.
> Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 4:38 AM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Fw: Wastegate Actuators?
>
>
> > In my opinion, the
> > stock BOV is not the problem.  The way the stock BOV is
> designed, the more
> > boost there is, the less chance it will leak.  That is because
> the valve is
> > pre-loaded to 5 lbs and uses boost pressure to keep it closed.
>
> The Blitz BOV setup often uses the stock BOV as well, so it could
> still play a
> rule here.
>
> For the stock valve, it has a small hole in it and therefore
> always leaking a
> little. But Bob is right, the manifold pressure keeps the valve
> closed (the hose
> that runs to the BOV). If boost goes away the pressure in the
> y-pipe pushes the
> bypass valve open to release pressure into the intake path.
>
> Check if the Blitz BOV is connected before the bypass valve or if
> it is alone.
> There must be a cause why people are installing it together with
> the stock parts
> and I think it's smoother operation. The Blitz BOV is a very quick opening
> device and therefore also somewhat hard to adjust. It seems to
> work good when
> adjusted to soft but mabye it is too soft and acts too early
> causing an unwanted
> leak.
>
> Go step by step with your problem eliminating one point by
> another (make sure
> the wastegates are fully closing).
>
> // Roger
>
> -----------------------
> Roger Gerl, Switzerland
> 93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
>
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

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Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:44:00 -0500
From: "Meyer" <meyer2@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Fw: Wastegate Actuators?

I think I'd rather invest $278 in the HKS ssbov and have no leaks and no
hoot noise.
Frank
www.acceleratedaccessories.com
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bob Fontana <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Friday, January 08, 1999 7:41 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Fw: Wastegate Actuators?


>I'd bet that you could plug that hole with a screw but MAKE SURE IT NEVER
>WORKS ITS WAY OUT!
>
>-Bob
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of R.G.
>> Sent: Friday, January 08, 1999 4:38 AM
>> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>> Subject: Re: Team3S: Fw: Wastegate Actuators?
>>
>>
>> > In my opinion, the
>> > stock BOV is not the problem.  The way the stock BOV is
>> designed, the more
>> > boost there is, the less chance it will leak.  That is because
>> the valve is
>> > pre-loaded to 5 lbs and uses boost pressure to keep it closed.
>>
>> The Blitz BOV setup often uses the stock BOV as well, so it could
>> still play a
>> rule here.
>>
>> For the stock valve, it has a small hole in it and therefore
>> always leaking a
>> little. But Bob is right, the manifold pressure keeps the valve
>> closed (the hose
>> that runs to the BOV). If boost goes away the pressure in the
>> y-pipe pushes the
>> bypass valve open to release pressure into the intake path.
>>
>> Check if the Blitz BOV is connected before the bypass valve or if
>> it is alone.
>> There must be a cause why people are installing it together with
>> the stock parts
>> and I think it's smoother operation. The Blitz BOV is a very quick
opening
>> device and therefore also somewhat hard to adjust. It seems to
>> work good when
>> adjusted to soft but mabye it is too soft and acts too early
>> causing an unwanted
>> leak.
>>
>> Go step by step with your problem eliminating one point by
>> another (make sure
>> the wastegates are fully closing).
>>
>> // Roger
>>
>> -----------------------
>> Roger Gerl, Switzerland
>> 93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
>>
>>
>> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 07:20:30 -0600
From: xwing <xwing@execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Wastegate Actuators?

bill wrote:
> Blitz BOV problem seemed to start when it was installed by GT 
> >Is your blow off valve the original stock unit?

Like 2nd Gen DSM BOV's, the stock TT BOV also act as a popoff valve,
usually limits boost to around 16psi.  Sometimes would go higher, like
it was stuck though.  Once I REMOVED it and PLUGGED the hose off, I
could get over 20psi boost.  The stock BOV certainly can act as gigantic
boost leakers/boost limiters.  1G DSM's do NOT popoff, that is why they
often switch to the 1G version; or "crush" the 2G version so it doesn't
limit boost anymore.

You have a LEAK somewhere in the high pressure circuit, from turbos to
manifold; OR a bad turbo (includes stuck-open wastegate).  Totally
unhook the wastegate actuator (pressure) line from the boost controller
to the wastegates.  Then, car should run "unlimited" boost; if it does,
it is a boost controller problem.  If not, see above...of course, you
have a good quality boost guage hooked up without a leak in ITS line...
Jack Tertadian
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:04:05 EST
From: LotoBoost@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Flat Spot Revisited

In a message dated 1/8/99 5:19:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,
robby@swissonline.ch writes:

<< For your flat spot I guess you're running way too rich in the lower end. I
read
 about additional injectors (Dr.Grimms 3000GT in Turbo Mag.) and it makes
sense
 as they are only activated when needed. It's possible that the 500's delivers
 just too much fuel on low duty cycles and the AFC is probably not able to
 compensate this. I just hope to be able to get this working with the 720 and
the
 VPC/GCC (gulp) >>


Its been my experience the AFC can compensate just fine with up to 560cc
injectors at lower rpms, just have to play around with it.  Don't be afraid to
go as low as -20, -25, -30..  on the dials with 550/560cc injectors.  But,
make sure you use a good volt meter grounded to the ECU ground or computer
software to make sure the 02's dont drop to far.. my car runs well at .88-9v
WOT (ECU grounded) on pump 93octane.  Also a good idea to get a good EGT
gauge, which will monitor your light throttle EGTs which DO vary significantly
when you rich and lean up the car. 

The AFC will be hard pressed with 720cc injectors though, but either a VPC/GCC
or VPC/AFC will work.  The 720cc injectors in my car run great, nobody could
tell a difference in drivability, and I'm able to bring the Injector duty
cycle down to more safe levels under WOT (at 1.2or more bar, 550/560cc
injectors are maxed out).  And because of that, many people will experience
fuel cut above 1.3-1.4bar with the 550/560cc injector combination and 15G
turbos.  Some people have G-Force reprogram their ECU to get around that fuel
cut problem, but IMO its only asking for trouble.   It seems Mitsubishi
smartly programmed fuel cut at 99% or greater injector duty cycle, to help
prevent the injectors from staying open.  So IMO its a good idea to leave the
stock fuel cut (if you use VPC/GCC or AFC) to help keep the pistons and valves
in good order.

So, from my experience, I feel the 550/560cc injectors are the best choice for
those people running 13G's, and those with 15G's who aren't running over
1.35-1.4 bar (or 1.3bar in these cold temps).  And to run those kind of boost
levels, race gas IS necessary - which many of us don't have access to anyway
(unless we are weekly track goers).  However, if you have 15G's and are
involved in the drag racing scene, where the extra 10hp from 1.3 to 1.5bar
will shave off that extra tenth, then 720cc injectors are a good idea.

My .02

TTYLater,
Mike Mahaffey
'94 Stealth tt
Best et: 11.6 Best mph: 121.58
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:33:16 -0500
From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
Subject: Team3S: Letter to Federal Trade Commission (long)

Here is a copy of a letter I sent to the Federal Trade Commission regarding
the Chrysler-Mitsubishi-Getrag arrangement.

- -Bob
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,

I would like to make you aware of a business practice that strongly smells
of unfair price-fixing and collusion between Mitsubishi Motors of Japan and
Getrag Gears of Germany.  I am only one of the few thousand consumers are
has been affected by this arrangement.

In the late 1980s, Mitsubishi Motors of Japan designed a new grand touring
car that later became to be known in the U.S. as the 3000GT.  In Japan, it
is (and always has been) called the GTO.  There are 3 versions of the U.S.
models: "Base", "SL" and "VR-4".   In an attempt to generate additional
revenue, Mitsubishi allowed Chrysler corporation to market and sell a
similar line of vehicles under the name of "Stealth".  The Stealth product
line consisted of "Base", "ES" and "Twin Turbo".   The top of the line
models, the VR-4 and Stealth Twin Turbo had an average list price of around
$42,000 and $37,000 respectively.

The VR-4 and Stealth Twin Turbo models feature full time all-wheel-drive.
Starting in 1994, they were sold with 6-speed transmissions rather than the
5-speeds that came with model years 1991 through 1993.   Mitsubishi arranged
with Getrag, a company with manufacturing facilities in Germany and the U.S.
as well as Japan, to produce the 5- and 6-speed transaxle (transmission) and
transfer case for these vehicles.  Getrag is the sole producer of the
transaxles and transfer cases.  Mitsubishi has also mandated (by contract)
with Getrag that it may not sell replacement parts to Mitsubishi's parts
depots or to any third parties.  Therefore, if even the smallest part, such
as a ten-dollar synchronizer ring, wears out inside of the transmission, the
owner is required to replace the entire transmission.  Since the
transmission can only be purchased from a Mitsubishi or Chrysler dealership,
the consumer is forced to pay an inflated price between $3500 and $4500
excluding labor unless the car is under factory warranty.  Transmissions
replaced under warranty must be sent back to Getrag for re-manufacture.
Those re-manufactured transmissions are then sold back to Mitsubishi and
Chrysler dealerships who make them available to out-of-warranty customers
for $3500 to $4500.

Getrag Gears of America has long been aware of the situation of cars coming
out of warranty and needing replacement parts and, although they would like
to help owners, have been unable to do so without breaching their contract
with Mitsubishi.  They have also indicated that they ceased production of
transmissions for Mitsubishi and that the only transmissions for these
vehicles that are available on the market are the re-manufactured units that
are being recycled from Mitsubishi and Chrysler dealerships.  Worse yet, it
is rumored that Mitsubishi has ended production of the 3000GT as of model
year 1999.  Chrysler's last model year for the Stealth line was 1995.

Consumers who have attempted to remedy this problem by directly contacting
Mitsubishi Motors Corporation in Japan have been rebuffed on more than one
occasion.  I implore you to look at the contract between Mitsubishi Motors
of Japan and Getrag Gears of North America to confirm that an unfair
business practice truly does exist and that several thousand consumers will
eventually be effected when all of the cars go out of warranty. .
Mitsubishi Motors should be held accountable to their customers, many who
are now making payments on an expensive vehicle that they can't drive.

Thank you for your attention to this problem.  I would also be interested to
know whether if you decide not to pursue the issue so I can begin exploring
alternative ways to resolve it.  If I can can be of further assistance, I
can be reached almost any time of the day or night (561) 883-2669.

Sincerely yours,

Robert A. Fontana

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:08:45 -0800
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: still have anti lock brake issues

- -----Original Message-----
From: Marc Jaffe [mailto:marc@marcjaffe.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 1999 7:44 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: still have anti lock brake issues

Hey Guys,
As previously mentioned i still have the anti lock light coming on, but
it is not consistant, is not because of the battery(new york and cold!),
and goes away when i restart the car.if that does not help i turn the
key on and off 10 times and it goes away. it may stop for a couple of
days
Any ideas?
Marc
===============================
Marc...

Although I've never had this problem (ABS light coming on) with my VR4, I
experienced it with my Talon TSI with some regularity. As you indicate, it
normally went away by turning off the engine and restarting. In fact, this
was the recommended procedure in the owners manual. The symptom normally
occurred during cold and/or wet weather. When exploring this issue, I found
the sensors are very sensitive and this is to be "expected". A hassle, but
no one ever fixed it (and I owned the Talon for five years).

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 20:09:01 +0100
From: Matthews <matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Fw: Wastegate Actuators?

Bob Fontana wrote:
>
> Darcy wrote:
> >
> > On a related note, Bob, if the stock BOV doesn't leak (unless the
> > clamp blows) then what
> > is the hooting noise reported by Jim, Errin, and others when
> > using their BOV stock
> > setups? Mine is also a stock BOV and I don't get this noise. Puzzling.

> If it's the same "whoooooo" noise that I used to get, I tracked it down to a
> poorly connected brake or clutch boost check valve that tends to chatter
> when making the transition between vacuum and boost.  Since the check valve
> only opens when vacuum is present, I was able to repeatedly duplicate the
> problem whenever I pressed on the gas ever so lightly while cruising
> (causing the boost guage to go from -7Hg to +1 or +2 PSI).  To fix it, I
> replaced all my little brake and clutch boost check valve hoses and the
> problem disappeared.

In my case, the resonance occurs when I _lift off_ of the throttle
slightly when cruising at 7 psi/.5 bar or so.  The sound is easily
reproduced but that hasn't gotten me any closer to a solution.  Also,
the resonance began as soon as the FIPK was installed - never happened
once before then.  Chris' Blitz BOV is on its way to me so I will let
the group know if it makes any difference.  In Errin's case it seemed to
eliminate the problem, which is interesting since the stock BOV is still
in the loop and the resonance occurs at boost pressures where the Blitz
will not be venting.  If the HOOT persists with the Blitz installed, I
will take the stock BOV out of the loop and try Roger's first generation
HKS SBOV when I join him and Mike Chapleski for dyno testing in
Switzerland in a few weeks.

-Jim
- --
Jim Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews

*** 3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph

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