--
From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
(Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Team3S Digest V1 #34
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
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Team3S Digest Friday,
November 27 1998 Volume 01 : Number
034
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 Nov 1998 01:42:30 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Alterations for boost increase
> Could somebody comment on the
following please.
> What is the benefit of platinum tip plugs when
incraesing boost?
GOOD (read NGK) platinum tip plugs last longer than
copper and display
higher horsepower at 6000 RPM and above due to more
concentrated spark
energy DESPITE what some people argue about copper being
better conductors.
The platinums are better at higher RPMs. Platinum
plugs also maintain their
gap longer than copper (they last
longer).
> It was recomended to me to change the fuel filter before
increasing the
> boost, does this have to be a special type of fuel filter
or can it be
> an original one?
> Why is it necessary to change the
fuel filter before the boost is
> increased? ( Obviously it has to do with
maintaining adequate fuel flow
> under higher boost but is it because the
older the filter is, the more
> clogged it is likely to be? My car has
done 80,000km )
The point here is to ensure you have adeqaute fuel
supply. A dirty or
marginal filter will reduce fuel supply. This
may be okay for a stock
engine but is not cool when pouring on the boost and
therefore increasing
fuel deamnds. Stock is "okay" but the banjo
fittings are definitely not
conducive to optimal flow. If you want to
get serious a good free-flowing
inline filter with proper AN fittings is the
right thing to do. Short of
that a new stock filter should be
fine. It all depends on how far you want
to go and how much money you
want to spend.
> BTW, Roger,...on the dyno results you have on
your web page, your car
> produced 284hp at 6.5psi & with the bleeder
352hp at 10psi. Does this
> mean that your car when it was stock produced
a maximum boost of 6.5psi?
> Or are there different places that the boost
can be measured that lead
> to different boost levels being obtained? I
was under the impression
> that the first gen. cars ran about 8psi &
produced 280hp & the second
> gen. 3000's ran about 12psi &
produced 320hp, but you got 352hp at
> 10psi? Could you plesae explain
this as I'm wanting to increase my cars
> boost to 12psi, but if I get
results similar to yours it will produce hp
> in the high 300's.
US
91-93 models had boost levels up to 9.5 psi and rated 300 HP. 94+
was
12.5 psi at 320 HP. However, the specification for boost is
extremely
broad. Most people don't seem to see the actual 9.5 psi that
is supposed to
be there in the 91-93 models. I don't know what other
people with 94+ are
experiencing with the stock setup. When I bought my
'94 I saw 12.5 psi all
the time. For some reason it started gradually
dropping off to the point
where it was around 6.5-8 psi depending upon
whatever. The dealer refused
to acknowledge a problem existed because
it was within the specification in
their books! I never actually did
solve that problem. 15Gs seemed to help
*grin*. After seeing the
innards of my engine and the condition of the
rings I suspect the previous
owner beat the poor thing and my adding 15Gs to
the mix and a heavy foot just
exacerbated the problem.
> Thanks
> Andrew
>
Australia
Regards,
Barry
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 Nov 1998 09:20:09 -0500
From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Alterations for boost increase
> After seeing the innards
of my engine and the condition of the
> rings I suspect the previous owner
beat the poor thing and my
> adding 15Gs to the mix and a heavy foot just
exacerbated the problem.
Hi Barry,
You didn't mention the role
that the TRE MASC played in your case. Do you
think that the ability to
adjust the A/F ratio to a lean mixture contributed
to the melted
pistons? How about the cylinder walls? Scored cylinder walls
and
deteriorated rings during a meltdown is not uncommon. I'd have to
think
that the problem was brought on more by an extreme lean condition more
than
by the previous owner or by adding 15Gs. If I'm not mistaken,
you've got
550CC injectors and an upgraded fuel pump, right? My
observations are that
the recent rash of 15G owners that achieved "meltdown"
status had
experimented with the spark retard or increased A/F
ratio.
Before I purchase a TRE MASC system based on a possibly
out-dated
recommendation, your most current opinion about the product,
including
safety measures to prevent engine damage would be helpful to us
all.
Thanks,
- -Bob
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:49:34 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Alterations for boost increase
Hey Andrew,
> What is
the benefit of platinum tip plugs when incraesing boost?
The plugs you
already have are platinum NGKs (if not changed by anyone) and they
are the
ones to go with. I changed them at the 60k service but they looked
pretty
good.
> It was recomended to me to change the fuel filter before
increasing the
> boost, does this have to be a special type of fuel filter
or can it be
> an original one?
Barry fully answered this. As the
engine was apart we also changed the filter
because there was easy access. I
don't know what quality of gas you run but here
the filter was no problem on
mine. No, I think it is no key player for high
boost, especially not for
anything under 18psi or so !
> BTW, Roger,...on the dyno results you
have on your web page, your car
> produced 284hp at 6.5psi & with the
bleeder 352hp at 10psi. Does this
> mean that your car when it was stock
produced a maximum boost of 6.5psi?
First, these are figures for the 13Gs
our stock EU cars have and the 352hp are
measured with 0.75bars of boost
(10.9psi) It is correct that the wastegates open
that early in stock setup so
the boost was limited to 6.5psi in the EU model.
Now after the rebuild I run
the car for about 600km on stock boost and now
increased to 0.75bars and will
go up later :)
> Could you plesae explain this as I'm wanting to
increase my cars
> boost to 12psi, but if I get results similar to yours
it will produce hp
> in the high 300's.
Well, as you also have
access to the dyno the figures will then tell the truth.
As you are having
the smaller 9B turbos you'll find less boost at the top. With
the same ~11psi
I ran I'd suggest you'd getting 330-340hp and with 12psi the
figure will be
around 350hp (roughly said ~10hp per psi). This is what I have
found by
changing the Blitz parameters on the dyno and measuring the
boost
level.
Barry, I also experienced that the stock boost level got
lower over the years.
The dealer told me that this is due to the springs in
the wg actuators are
getting weaker and therefore the wg opens earlier. As we
now are having boost
controllers this is of no interest anymore :)
My
mechanic always measured boost at the front wastegate actuator. Well, he
was
of no luck with the BC solenoid in place. He thought that there is
something
totally wrong as there was no boost build up visible (grin, hehe).
I had to
teach him a little and he now measures boost at the blow off valve
line or the
rear tap of the manifold.
Hope this helps and let us now
your dyno results ;-)
- ----------------------
Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor
wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,SBOV,
Borla,OZ Mito2,Yoko
AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,Bremsa brakes,Pagid RS-R pads
Visit my homepage
under: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:26:17 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Team3S:
mobile
R.G. wrote:
> Now after the rebuild I run the car for
about 600km on stock boost and now
> increased to 0.75bars and will go up
later :)
>
Hey Roger, if I read this correctly, it sounds
like you have your machine back up and
running. Good deal!! Mobile
again!
Darc
PS: Sorry to all who endured my essentially
blonde moment with the K question...brain
fell out and had to be picked up
with dirt and lint clinging to it, and placed back in
cranium.
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 Nov 1998 12:52:50 EST
From: LotoBoost@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Alterations for boost increase - MASC
In a message dated 11/26/98 9:20:45
AM Eastern Standard Time,
<< Before I purchase a TRE MASC system based
on a possibly out-dated
recommendation, your most current opinion about
the product, including
safety measures to prevent engine damage would
be helpful to us all.
>>
All,
As far
as the TRE MASC goes, it is probably the best tuning device I've
come accross
for the Stealth/3000GT VR4. Its also has the widest spectrum
of
tunability of any after-market tuning device for us Stealth/VR4ers so
if
someone isn't sure what they are doing, it would be VERY easy to put a
few
nice sized holes through the pistons, bend a few rods, and melt all
the
exhuast valves :).
Basically its like a grand Apex AFC with a
larger, unrestrictive mass air
meter and 11 instead of 5 points of
adjustment! Also, instead of operating
off rpms like the AFC, it is
load based so it allows a much broader map of
tunability.
Basically
the MASC wouldn't cause someones car to blow up unless they are too
agressive
with the tuning curves and run exceptionally lean. But the MASC
comes
with two EGT readins, reads the air/fuel ratio, boost level, and
injector
duty cycle.. So unless someone was completely ignoring all the
warning
beeps that can be programmed into the MASC and the flashing screen
letting
you know something definalty isn't right, I believe it would be pretty
hard
to melt anything as far as from a tuning standpoint :).
HOWEVER, just a
few days ago Dave at TRE decided to stop production of the
MASC. They
deemed it not profitable enough and too complex for the
average
person.
I know my MASC is awesome and I'd love to at least
have Dave continue making
them for the Stealth/VR4 as he makes them for the
Dodge Colts with great
success. If anyone is interested in the MASC,
please e-mial me and I'll
create a list to show Dave there really is a market
out there!!
See ya'll,
Mike Mahaffey
'94 Stealth tt
Best et:
11.6 Best mph: 120.7
LotoBoost@aol.com
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:55:06 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject:
Team3S: Engine rebuilt - dead battery
> Hey Roger, if I read this
correctly, it sounds like you have your machine
> back up and
running. Good deal!! Mobile again!
Oh yeah, it's a goood feeling to have
the car back, so nice and smooth :) It's a
big differences to the Z28 but I
love both cars.
The car runs very well... until I wanted to head home
from Munich last Tuesday
:( The car started somewhat hard and finally it
wouldn't start anymore after I
filled up the tank. What the &ç* ?? Well,
we called a friend from the office and
got the start power from the others
car battery. We finally made our way to the
Autobahn by trying to use as less
electric power as necessary. After 40 miles
the car felt like it has a
hesitation or some cylinders shut off for s short
moment. Uhh ? A few minutes
later the same problem and then the car died as I
had to press the clutch
pedal fast. I then released the clutch again and the car
went back to live.
After the first time the car did this to us about every 30
seconds. No chance
to drive home the other 200 miles :(
After some minutes the problem
appeared again but this time I noticed that the
lights got heavily dimmed.
AHA ! It seems as the battery will not be charged
anymore ... Grrrrr. But
then, after speed came back and I released the clutch,
the engine started and
the problem went away for the next 20 minutes, very
strange ! To make the
story short, I made it to the Swiss border where I knew
that I can call the
road assistance if it would die totally. We were very lucky
to make it to the
dealer near my hometown where I left the car and called my
neighbour to pick
us up.
Yesterday, the dealer called me and told me that the battery is
dead. Huh ?? It
worked very well before the new pistons went in and now it is
killed ? Ok, the
car is a 93' and this is the original batt, but all batts
that got killed by me
(hehe) became weaker and weaker over a longer period
than two days ! But the
dealer tested it with an 80Amp kick and voltage went
down to 6Volts. Remember,
the starter uses more than 100Amps for a short time
! Also the battery was
charged for 3/4 of its power and all wires where
tight. Time for a new battery
and time to spend more money again :( I told
them to put a "Fortis" batt in
(expensive but good) then I picked it up in
the evening and everything felt
great again.
I made another 150miles
today and the car runned without any problem. I also
increased boost to about
0.75bars max at the moment (grin) and it feels really
strong. Also the dealer
checked everything for leaks as well as emissions and
it is better than
a new one now :) Compression is over 130psi on all cylinders
and the BOV is
not oily anymore. Also I runned the car for some short times up
to 5500rpm
and no oil was pressed out the cap anymore. Last but not least,
fuel
consumption went down to a never seen level. Below 10L/100km
(~24.mil/gal). This
is great for a 5 speed car, but of course I didn't runned
more than 0.7bars
boost nor more than 3000rpm for a longer period.
For
the cost ... I was quoted by $2900 for material and work but
the
after-calculation seems to stop at $3500 excluding the new battery now
(with
current exchange rate, about DM 6000) This is not too bad but for me it
was not
planned and even more I was not able to install the large turbos and
other
performance stuff I bought from Brian (GT Alley) due to missing parts.
I wanted
to install them later, maybe in Spring next year but if the
money-wise situation
and the business does not become better you'll see some
offers here pretty soon.
Well, 1998 was not good to me and my cars
:(
Time to boost up again and heading with full throttle to 1999
:)
- -----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT
TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual
Timer,Apexi AFC,SBOV,
Borla,OZ Mito2,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,Bremsa
brakes,Pagid RS-R pads
Visit my homepage under: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 Nov 1998 13:15:54 -0500
From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Alterations for boost increase - MASC
Hi Mike,
This is
good info. Load-based tuning -- what is that?
Thanks,
-
-Bob
> Basically its like a grand Apex AFC with a larger,
unrestrictive mass air
> meter and 11 instead of 5 points of
adjustment! Also, instead of
> operating
> off rpms like the
AFC, it is load based so it allows a much broader map of
>
tunability.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:29:40 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Alterations for boost increase
> -----Original Message-----
>
> After seeing the innards of my engine and the condition of the
> >
rings I suspect the previous owner beat the poor thing and my
> >
adding 15Gs to the mix and a heavy foot just exacerbated the
problem.
>
> Hi Barry,
>
> You didn't mention the role
that the TRE MASC played in your case. Do you
> think that the
ability to adjust the A/F ratio to a lean mixture
> contributed to the
melted pistons?
Althogh that is possible but I suspect I didn't
heed my own advice and just
cranked the boost beyond what was prudent for the
fuel I was running. The
damage to thge pistons was definitely
detonation related according to the
post mortem.
Even that being the
case it is POSSIBLE that I leaned the car out too much.
Now that would not be
the MASC's fault but rather operator error IF it were
the case.
However, there were NO indications of a lean condition in my
engine and the
cause of the destruction was "definitely detonation" in the
words of my
builder. The piston tops and valves in the other cylinders are
perfect
with no pitting or gaulling (sp?) which would indicate lean
conditions
(micro-burns can be associated with lean).
> How about the cylinder
walls? Scored cylinder walls
> and deteriorated rings during a
meltdown is not uncommon.
The single score in the single bore that was
scored was caused by foreign
matter (read piston/ring parts). The cross
hatch on the cylinder bore is
still otherwise visible.
> I'd have
to think that the problem was brought on more by an extreme
lean
condition
> more than by the previous owner or by adding
15Gs.
I should have elaborated. I believe now that I killed my
engine. Me. I
ran too much boost for the quality of fuel I was
running at the time. I did
not in this case "practise what I
preach". No indications of EGT, O2 sensor
or any other indicator shows
that the thing was lean.
What I meant by the previous owner remark was
that there were indications
that someone has been into my car before.
The turbos had been off. Rumor
has it the guy ran the thing hard and
harder. I suspect that although I
pushed it over the edge the engine's
days were numbered anyway due to its
history.
> If I'm not
mistaken, you've got 550CC injectors and an upgraded fuel pump,
right?
My
> observations are that the recent rash of 15G owners that
achieved
"meltdown" status had
> experimented with the spark retard or
increased A/F ratio.
I agree. And it isn't the VPC/GCC or MASC that
is to blame IMO. I firmly
believe (the math is easy and readily
available on the web) that 550
injectors are inadequate for a hot 15G
setup. Not enough fuel, plain and
simple. If you have HKS
"550s" then it is even worse since they aren't even
550s -- they are
550s. Almost none of us run enough fuel pressure. Almost
none of
us have proper fuel lines from tank to engine. While many people
have
run very fast on HKS injectors, they are also in the same category
you,
myself, Todd S. and many others are in -- broken engines either due
to
detonation or lean burn.
Also, there appears to be inconsistent
reports of the ACTUAL flow of the HKS
pump. It is claimed to be
90 gph (240 lph) at presumably 43 PSI with 12 v
wiring. According to my
information that is not true. I'd like to see
someone test one. I
bought the biggest ND pump available from their
worldwide catalog -- it is
rated at 260 lph at 43 psi 12v wiring. 290 lph
at14 v wiring.
According to my calculations this is a marginal pump for a
600+ HP
application.
> Before I purchase a TRE MASC system based on a possibly
out-dated
> recommendation, your most current opinion about the product,
including
> safety measures to prevent engine damage would be helpful to
us all.
Understood. So far I have no evidence to suggest that the
MASC itself is at
fault. Although running too lean case cause
detonation, that was not the
case in my situation.
That is not to say
that one could not lean the engine out so much that they
melted it using the
MASC since it is so adjustable. You could theoretically
do the same
thing with any other mixture device however. The MASC has no
built in
safe gaurds. To my knowledge, no aftermarket fuel control,
including
complete ECMs, has built-in safegaurds against running lean.
I still
believe the MASC is the way to go but with the caveat that it is a
very
powerful tool and not for people who cannot tune or do not have access
to a
good tuner. It is not "plug and play".
>
Thanks,
>
> -Bob
Hope that helps. Fire away if there's
anything I need to clarify.
Regards,
Barry
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:26:32 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Alterations for boost increase - MASC
Hi Dave;
The MASC
would seem to be the next informed and logical step to take...but
your
information on production discontinuation doesn't sound encouraging. For
some of us,
committing to such a purchase occurs when extra unspent coins
appear in one's pockets.
Depending on the unexpected (Roger's case being a
good example) this can occur later,
rather than sooner. What price is a
person looking at for the product? User
instalability? And, I assume it
can be used in conjuction with BC's or does it
essentially replace
them?
Darc
92 TT Stealth
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:39:27 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Alterations for boost increase - MASC
By load Mike is referring to
airflow.
The AFC measures RPM and allows mixture airflow adjustments
using SOLELY the
RPM. Clearly this is only good at WOT and even then in
limited situations.
Adjust airflow via actual engine load (amount of air
being consumed by the
engine) is FAR more accurate. This is in fact
what the ECU does. You can
cruise at 3000 rpm and pull 20%
airflow. You can also be at part throttle
or WOT at 3000 RPM and pull
35%. You can be at 3000 RPM and 17 psi and pull
40%. You get the
idea. Same RPM but totally different fuel requirements.
Tuning by RPM
alone is useless.
The MASC divides the airflow up into 10 bands based on
total possible
airflow. You have tuning ranges from 0-10% airflow,
10-20%,..., 90-100%.
It is very similar to the equalizer on a stereo.
Once a curve has been
established you can adjust the entire curve up or
down.
The MASC uses the same trickery that the VPC, GCC and AFC
use. It adjusts
the airflow frequency being fed to the ECU and lets the
ECU draw its own
conclusions as to the amount of fuel to be
delivered.
Regards,
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
> Hi Mike,
>
> This is good info.
Load-based tuning -- what is that?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
-Bob
>
> > Basically its like a grand Apex AFC with a
larger,
> unrestrictive mass air
> > meter and 11 instead of 5
points of adjustment! Also, instead of
> > operating
> >
off rpms like the AFC, it is load based so it allows a much
> broader map
of
> > tunability.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:56:17 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Alterations for boost increase - MASC
> This is good
info. Load-based tuning -- what is that?
This is :
a) Fuel
delivery in relation to the boost
b) tuning in the stuff under full load i.e.
on the dyno where the the resistance
is that big that you have to floor the
pedal and the rpms will not increase.
With this, we found the 1.05bars
knock-start.
Anyone ?
- -----------------------
Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 Nov 1998 21:19:51 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Alterations for boost increase - MASC (long)
Barry, thanks for
the wrap-up (my pc was dead for a longer time) and the good
input
!
> The damage to thge pistons was definitely detonation related
according to the
> post mortem.
Same to me, but how do they look ?
Any pictures ?
Yes, it was also the Swiss guy who killed the engine by
himself. But some things
you said makes me thinking for the future
:
> Even that being the case it is POSSIBLE that I leaned the car out
too much.
Here the MASC questions step in : As you said you haven't seen
any dangerous
figures of the EGT. So this means to me that adding an EGT and
watching the
temps does not help to avoid lean situations ! I plan to tap in
the probe as
well but if this does not help in any way what does
???
I'm somewhat critical and I like to ask you if you are sure the
readings on the
sensors from the MASC where good. Especially the EGT probes
must be of good
quality to act pretty quick. How fast can the MASC read the
sensors and how many
readings per second ? The exhaust temperature changed
very quick as we did the
measures and unfortunately the most probes act
within 2 seconds. This is
probably too short and I wonder if there are any
better solutions available.
During the development of the Diag Tool I also
runned into this problem and I
currently don't know if the probes are fast
enough.
> The single score in the single bore that was scored was
caused by foreign
> matter (read piston/ring parts). The cross hatch
on the cylinder bore is
> still otherwise visible.
Sorry to ask
again, but was this the middle one of the left bank ?
> not in this
case "practise what I preach". No indications of EGT, O2 sensor
> or
any other indicator shows that the thing was lean.
Again, did you run a
gauge besides of the MASC. I don't want to be too critical
but I always need
two different devices to be sure until I know everything runs
perfect. Of
course it is developed very well but a lean condition should be
recognized by
the sensors.
> I suspect that although I pushed it over the edge the
engine's days were
> numbered anyway due to its history.
Same to
mee ! Fortunately the BOV saved me before I runned into a bigger
problem.
Therefore the BOV is a GOOD TOOL to discover any engine problems :)
>
Almost none of us run enough fuel pressure. Almost
> none of us have
proper fuel lines from tank to engine. While many people
> have run
very fast on HKS injectors, they are also in the same category you,
>
myself, Todd S. and many others are in -- broken engines either due to
>
detonation or lean burn.
Agreed, but why then the lean condition is shown
by killing the pistons and not
by the sensors. Sorry when riding on this
stuff but there must be signs that are
important (beside of knock). This
signs (retarding, knock, IDC) must be watched
and displayed with warnings (or
stored). If you have less fuel you'd cause lean
conditions that will be seen
in the O2 readings as well as the EGT. Maybe the
EGT probe was located
wrongly and the O2 sensor too slow ... or the MASC showed
wrong data
??
> Understood. So far I have no evidence to suggest that the
MASC itself is at
> fault. Although running too lean case cause
detonation, that was not the
> case in my situation.
Why then the
piston got killed when not by a lean condition ? Did your engine
sucked
anything in ? Maybe your rings were broken for a long time and I was
lucky to
make the compression test at the first signs. On mine, all ring parts
where
still in place (in up to 4 pices) as well as the broken ring land. The
lower
piston parts lied in the oil pan on the larger sieve before the filter.
No
damage to the walls nore any other parts (phfuuu).
> melted it
using the MASC since it is so adjustable. You could theoretically
>
do the same thing with any other mixture device however.
Yes, just boost
up a lot and run into fuel cut too much ... voilà !!
> The MASC has no
built in safe gaurds. To my knowledge, no aftermarket fuel
>
control, including complete ECMs, has built-in safegaurds against
running
> lean.
Unfortunately this is true. If there is an
interest, I'll add this feature to
the diag tool if necessary. I have two
programmable outputs with relais that can
switch a solenoid on/off. We can
use the stock wastegate solenoid valve and
control it by the Diag if any
preset situation in the readings occur. With this
valve placed AFTER the BC
solenoid, boost will be decreased when any sensor
reads dangerous values. But
I don't know how fast this would be then to be safe.
Maybe worth a test
!
> I still believe the MASC is the way to go but with the caveat that
it is a
> very powerful tool and not for people who cannot tune or do not
have access
> to a good tuner. It is not "plug and
play".
Yes, true. But the VPC/GCC is not easily tuneable as well
!
We all want to have the most power out of the cars but also to be save
not
killing the engines ! For this, we NEED to be able to supervise the
variables in
the engine. How do we do this if even the EGT or O2 sensors do
not show any
dangerous situations ??? And if the ECU itselfs does not watch
the bad signs how
can we do ? My aim is to install other sensors that watch
the interesting points
and record them for any later analysis (hopefully not
after any damage) But what
would here are the questions :
- - Reading
an EGT probe could be wrong ?
- - How do I decode knock from the knock sensor
(only the ECU knows) ?
- - Are the sensors too slow to detect any bad
situations ?
If the last ones is true then even my project doesn't help
at all and I'll stop
it. But, to be honest, I'd like to know if the MASC is
really accurate and how
fast it measured the
values.
Cheers,
Roger
- -----------------------
Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor
wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,SBOV,
Borla,OZ Mito2,Yoko
AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,Bremsa brakes,Pagid RS-R pads
Visit my
homepage under: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 Nov 1998 21:24:25 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject:
Team3S: Datalogger ??
Anybody aware of the TMO Datalogger (PC connected
to the 1st-gen) ? I emailed
them twice but never got any feedback. A friend
named Lowell Foo told me that he
tried it on a friends Stealth and it worked
pretty well.
Thanks,
Roger
- -----------------------
Roger
Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N
FIPK,Magnecor wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,SBOV,
Borla,OZ
Mito2,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,Bremsa brakes,Pagid RS-R pads
Visit
my homepage under: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------------------------------
Date:
Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:52:08 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Alterations for boost increase - MASC (longer)
> -----Original
Message-----
> Barry, thanks for the wrap-up (my pc was dead for a longer
time)
> and the good input !
>
> > The damage to thge
pistons was definitely detonation related
> according to the
> >
post mortem.
>
> Same to me, but how do they look ? Any pictures
?
http://hellsgate.ml.org/Rebuild1.htm
I
will have more pictures soon.
> Yes, it was also the Swiss guy who
killed the engine by himself.
> But some things you said makes me thinking
for the future :
>
> > Even that being the case it is POSSIBLE
that I leaned the car
> out too much.
>
> Here the MASC
questions step in : As you said you haven't seen
> any dangerous
>
figures of the EGT. So this means to me that adding an EGT and
> watching
the
> temps does not help to avoid lean situations ! I plan to tap
in
> the probe as
> well but if this does not help in any way what
does ???
No, I believe that EGT and O2 voltage and that elusive quality
"common
sense" are invaluable. A good knock sensor would be
great. I do NOT
believe I killed the engine due to a lean
condition. I am certain it was
just a case of too much
boost.
> I'm somewhat critical and I like to ask you if you are sure
the
> readings on the
> sensors from the MASC where good. Especially
the EGT probes must
> be of good
> quality to act pretty quick. How
fast can the MASC read the
> sensors and how many readings per second
?
I know that the MASC pressor sensor agrees with my SPI boost gauge
and
SAVC-R. They all agree to within a few tenths of a PSI.
As
to EGT, I was using my Blitz meter only. The MASC gauges should be
great
since they use calibrated pyrometers and are temperature
compensated. They
are accurate to within 7 degrees F. I do not
know the sample rate. It
doesn't matter that much since the computer
can sample MUCH faster than the
response of even a quick pyrometer like the
K-types used with the both the
MASC and any high quality automtoive
EGT. A general rule I used from the
race days was that when the EGTs
were rising noticably fast the actual
exahust temperate was around 25 F
hotter than what was indicated on the
meter. I arrived at that number
solely by observation. It may differ
depending upon just how fast the
EGT is rising. The faster it iis rising
the more likely the actual
exhaust temperature is much hotter than the gauge
indicates at the point in
time that you glance at it.
> The exhaust temperature changed very
quick as we did the
> measures and unfortunately the most probes act
within 2 seconds. This is
> probably too short and I wonder if there are
any better solutions
> available.
Not that I am aware. There
are no solid state devices which react quicker
and even if there were they
would not withstand the extremes of heat found
in exhaust gases. The
fastest response is found in the K-type thermocouple.
> During the
development of the Diag Tool I also runned into this
> problem and I
currently don't know if the probes are fast enough.
They are likely just
going to have to do. One thing that might be
interesting is to predict
the actual temperature by analyzing the rise rate.
So you could display a
second temperature which is a predicted temperature
ONLY if the temperature
is rising. Fairly simple mathematics would give you
an
extrapolation.
> > The single score in the single bore that was
scored was caused
> by foreign
> > matter (read piston/ring
parts). The cross hatch on the
> cylinder bore is
> > still
otherwise visible.
>
> Sorry to ask again, but was this the middle
one of the left bank ?
The worst one was the drivers side rear bank
(#4). The other one was #1
(front left). The #1 bore ate a piece
of the #4 piston and caused a score
in the cylinder. The #4 bore could
easily be cleaned up with a simple hone.
Other than the one score, the
cylinders were in excellent condition as are
the crank and rod
bearings.
> > not in this case "practise what I preach".
No indications of
> EGT, O2 sensor
> > or any other indicator
shows that the thing was lean.
>
> Again, did you run a gauge
besides of the MASC. I don't want to
> be too critical
> but I
always need two different devices to be sure until I know
> everything
runs
> perfect. Of course it is developed very well but a lean
condition
> should be recognized by the sensors.
I have no reason
to doubt the accuracy of the MASC EGTs based on experiences
of others but as
I mention I did not actually have MASC EGT hooked up at the
time.
>
> I suspect that although I pushed it over the edge the engine's days
were
> > numbered anyway due to its history.
>
> Same to
mee ! Fortunately the BOV saved me before I runned into a bigger
>
problem. Therefore the BOV is a GOOD TOOL to discover any engine
>
problems :)
>
> > Almost none of us run enough fuel
pressure. Almost
> > none of us have proper fuel lines from tank
to engine. While
> many people
> > have run very fast on
HKS injectors, they are also in the same
> category you,
> >
myself, Todd S. and many others are in -- broken engines either due to
>
> detonation or lean burn.
>
> Agreed, but why then the lean
condition is shown by killing the
> pistons and not
> by the
sensors. Sorry when riding on this stuff but there must be
> signs that
are
> important (beside of knock). This signs (retarding, knock,
IDC)
> must be watched
> and displayed with warnings (or stored). If
you have less fuel
> you'd cause lean
> conditions that will be seen
in the O2 readings as well as the
> EGT. Maybe the
> EGT probe was
located wrongly and the O2 sensor too slow ... or
> the MASC showed wrong
data ??
Quite possible. However when tuning I target steady state
situations for
the very reasons you indicate. You can't tune a moving
target. I spent an
entire week tuning my MASC and I did it methodically
and definitely much
more slowly than most people. I just wanted it to
be right.
I do not believe my engine was running lean. There was no
evidence of lean
burn. Lean burn will show up on the valves, in the
exhaust ports, the top
of the piston and as importantly the BOTTOM of the
piston. My pistons were
perfect other than the fact that two of them
started to come apart.
I believe that a CAREFUL tuner can determine lean
condition with EGT and O2
sensor voltages. But I wholeheartedly agree -
we need more information.
Timing affects EGTs for instance. It is
possible with retarded timing to
have high EGTs but a rich mixture. It
is also possible to have high EGTs
with mnormal timng and a rich
mixture. It is also possible to have cool
EGTs and a lean
mixture. If you map EGT versus mixture it will look like
a
curve.
Also, a misfire will cause O2 voltages to read LEAN.
You cannot hear a
single or even several percentage misfire at high
RPMs. And they happen
even in the healthiest of engines.
Something like up to 2% is considered
normal in a passenger car. That
seems high to me but this is what I have
been advised by people in the
know. A high performance application would
clearly want to keep
misfires to a minimum. However, the point is you could
have a marginal
ignition system, a RICH mixture but everything is telling
you that it is
LEAN. Conceivable but perhaps not liekly. Again, the point
is we
need more information as you suggest. We need spark energy,
timing
information, % misfire, ACCURATE O2 voltages, EGT and so on.
Ideally you
want EGT for each cylinder but that becomes impractical for most
people.
There are just so many variables. Once you get into
the 550+ HP (for our
cars) range those variables become more relevant.
The stock ECU was simply
never meant to deal with these conditions.
Timing needs to be monitored and
possibly changed.
> >
Understood. So far I have no evidence to suggest that the MASC
>
itself is at
> > fault. Although running too lean case cause
detonation, that
> was not the
> > case in my
situation.
>
> Why then the piston got killed when not by a lean
condition ? Did
> your engine sucked anything in
?
Detonation. Plain and simple. Detonation is not caused
solely by a lean
condition. High cylinder pressures and inappropriately
matched timing for
the fuel being burned will cause detonation. I was
running 100 octane fuel
and 21 PSI. I KNOW that 21 PSI requires
116. It was my fault.
> Maybe your rings were broken for a long
time and I was
> lucky to make the compression test at the first signs. On
mine,
> all ring parts
> where still in place (in up to 4 pices) as
well as the broken
> ring land. The
> lower piston parts lied in the
oil pan on the larger sieve before
> the filter. No
> damage to the
walls nore any other parts (phfuuu).
The skirts on my pistons are
perfect. My failure was caused from a short
duration detonation.
I think yours was the result of many long term
detonation
sessions.
> > melted it using the MASC since it is so
adjustable. You could
> theoretically
> > do the same thing
with any other mixture device however.
>
> Yes, just boost up a lot
and run into fuel cut too much ... voilà !!
I never have ran into fuel
cut, even when the car was bone stock other than
the AVC-R. Even peaks
of 18 psi did not cause fuel cut on my car. I do not
know
why.
> > The MASC has no built in safe gaurds. To my
knowledge, no
> aftermarket fuel
> > control, including complete
ECMs, has built-in safegaurds
> against running
> >
lean.
>
> Unfortunately this is true. If there is an interest, I'll
add
> this feature to
> the diag tool if necessary. I have two
programmable outputs with
> relais that can
> switch a solenoid
on/off. We can use the stock wastegate solenoid
> valve and
>
control it by the Diag if any preset situation in the readings
> occur.
With this
> valve placed AFTER the BC solenoid, boost will be decreased
when
> any sensor
> reads dangerous values. But I don't know how
fast this would be
> then to be safe.
> Maybe worth a test
!
It is a start. I believe the thing to shoot for is fast knock
detection.
Lean burning by itself actually won't kill an engine as quickly
as
detonation. When I was racing motorcycles I would run the very
ragged edge
of lean and get away with it for the duration of the race.
The pistons
would be thrown away after one race but they would last long
enough to win
;) Were I detonating (which I was not) the engine would
not have survived
more than a few laps.
> > I still believe the
MASC is the way to go but with the caveat
> that it is a
> > very
powerful tool and not for people who cannot tune or do not
> have
access
> > to a good tuner. It is not "plug and
play".
>
> Yes, true. But the VPC/GCC is not easily tuneable as well
!
Agreed.
> We all want to have the most power out of the cars
but also to be save not
> killing the engines ! For this, we NEED to be
able to supervise
> the variables in
> the engine. How do we do this
if even the EGT or O2 sensors do
> not show any
> dangerous
situations ??? And if the ECU itselfs does not watch
> the bad signs
how
> can we do ? My aim is to install other sensors that watch
the
> interesting points
> and record them for any later analysis
(hopefully not after any
> damage) But what
> would here are the
questions :
>
> - Reading an EGT probe could be wrong ?
Not
wrong, but things to consider:
If EGT is rising, actual temperature is
invariable hotter than measured.
See above.
EGT by itself is as useless as
O2 voltage by itself. We need all these
variables
incontext.
> - How do I decode knock from the knock sensor (only the
ECU knows) ?
I have at least two solutions to this. Unfortunately I
am unable to discuss
either of them :\
More later.
> - Are the
sensors too slow to detect any bad situations ?
O2 sensors have a lag as
do EGTs. Pressure and knock sensors are virtually
immediate although in
the case of knock it is being detected after it
happnes. The hope is
that one detonation can be survived if the enegine
management system reacts
to it in a timely fashion.
> If the last ones is true then even my
project doesn't help at all
> and I'll stop
> it. But, to be honest,
I'd like to know if the MASC is really
> accurate and how
> fast it
measured the values.
Your project is valid. We need the
information. However, to expect an
engine management system to protect
the engine is lofty. In fact, the stock
ECU does a great job at doing
this IF we leave everything alone. It is when
we start tricking the ECU
that it gets out of hand. Even if you were to
install a new ECM you
would still have problems since the bottom line is the
car still needs to be
properly tuned.
> Cheers,
> Roger
Keep up the
work and the critical thinking. This can be a complicated topic
which
few if any have a complete grasp on. We all benefit by discussing
it
and the nuances therein.
Regards,
Barry
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------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:57:50 +1100
From: Andrew J Clark <chemist1@ozemail.com.au>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Alterations for boost increase
Barry E. King wrote:
I
believe now that I killed my engine. Me. I
> ran too much
boost for the quality of fuel I was running at the time
Barry, what was
exactly too much boost?
I havent delved into modifying my car before & I
just want to make sure
of what is a "totally" safe boost level. That is what
boost level is the
maximum one you can use that you can be sure that no
damage will be
caused to your engine as a result of increasing the boost
& you can
still drive the car as hard & as long as you like. (
Obviously not
mistreating the car,but just utilizing its performance ). I
really only
want to get a few extra horses without going over the
top.
Anybody else who has run an increased boost level for a long
period
without problems could you please also
comment.
Thankyou
Andrew
Australia
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------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 27 Nov 1998 01:46:43 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Alterations for boost increase
Too much boost means more than 16 psi on
92+ pump for any significant length
of time. I ran 16-17 on good pump
(94) and sometimes with octane booster
for a year or so with no apparent ill
effects. I consider this level of
boost safe and you should be very
happy with the results. 15 psi is an even
safer level which still gives
the car a nice wakeup.
I was running 100 at 21 psi for the week or two
prior to blowing the engine
and had been on several extended high boost open
highway runs while dialing
in the upper regions of airflow with the
MASC. Not cool. I knew better, my
fault. 21 psi requires
116 octane.
Note that there is NO evidence period to suggest that the
MASC was doing
anything except what it was designed to do. I was not
running lean and in
fact was still safely rich. That means there's more
power to be had *grin*
Regards,
Barry
>
-----Original Message-----
> Barry E. King wrote:
> I believe now
that I killed my engine. Me. I
> > ran too much boost for
the quality of fuel I was running at the time
>
> Barry, what was
exactly too much boost?
> I havent delved into modifying my car before
& I just want to make sure
> of what is a "totally" safe boost level.
That is what boost level is the
> maximum one you can use that you can be
sure that no damage will be
> caused to your engine as a result of
increasing the boost & you can
> still drive the car as hard & as
long as you like. ( Obviously not
> mistreating the car,but just utilizing
its performance ). I really only
> want to get a few extra horses without
going over the top.
> Anybody else who has run an increased boost level
for a long period
> without problems could you please also
comment.
> Thankyou
> Andrew
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