--

From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com (Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S Digest V1 #28
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Errors-To: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Precedence: bulk


Team3S Digest       Thursday, November 19 1998       Volume 01 : Number 028




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:03:28 -0800
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: Downpipe

Bob...

I suggest you contact ATR at 864-972-3800.

Good price, in stock and available for immediate delivery.

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4

- -----Original Message-----
From: Robert T. Rand [SMTP:rtr@vnet.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 6:11 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: I Screwed up

Hey Guys,
|
I found out where I could get a test pipe for my 93 Stealth TT and I
inadvertently deleted the group I was keeping the information in.

Anyone that can direct me to a TEST PIPE, I would be most appreciative.

Thanks,

Bob

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:22:56 EST
From: Aso8@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Pre-cat eliminators

Although, I think my 91's downpipes will be different then the 94 on...I'll
need a larger size too. I'd like 3" if possible? I'm told there won't be
enough room for this size. If correct, it doesn't pay for me to change the
gutted ones I have.
Arty 91 Vr-4

In a message dated 11/18/98 4:34:10 AM Pacific Standard Time,
cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com writes:

<< ubj: RE: Team3S: Pre-cat eliminators
 Date: 11/18/98 4:34:10 AM Pacific Standard Time
 From: cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com (Chris Winkley)
 Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
 Reply-to: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
 To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com ('stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com')
 
 -----Original Message-----
 From: Barry E. King [SMTP:beking@home.com]
 Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 8:10 PM
 To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
 Subject: Team3S: Pre-cat eliminators
 <snip>
 
 If successful, how many people will commit to purchasing a set?
 
 <end of snip>
 Barry...
 
 I believe there's already a front aftermarket precat available for $125. If
we can get a set for under $300
 (the back is more complex) you can count me in!!!
 
 Looking forward...Chris
  >>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 12:56:38 -0800
From: Rich <rleroy@pacifier.com>
Subject: Team3S: OE Fog Lights

All:

Has anybody found replacement bulbs for the fog lights other than going
back to Mits or Dodge?

Any helpful hints when replacing the bulbs?  I've misplaced my manual
.... dammit.

TIA,

Rich
Emerald Green 94 R/T
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:11:25 EST
From: LotoBoost@aol.com
Subject: Team3S: Parts for Sale

From Hau..... Please reply to yhauwang@gte.net and yhauwang@hotmail.com!
 
 <<
 Mike can you post this on all the stealths/3kgt lists ??
 Barry, I lost your e-mail address ...
 
 Hi all,
 
 I am getting rid of my baby ...
 
 I need to sell all my mods ... asking $5000,00 for the list below ... trying
 to sell as a package .... serious inquiries only please ... also if you are
 in the area, I'll install them for free ... (Seattle, WA)
 
 TEC 15G turbos Fully ported - 100 miles
 AMS Upgraded Intercooler
 560 injectors
 HKS fuel pump
 AEM throttle body upgrade (Core required)
 3" custom downpipe
 Predator battery dry cell (weights 10 lbs less than stock battery)
 A'pexi AVC-R
 A'pexi AFC
 A'pexi boost gauge with peak hold (white)
 A'pexi EGT
 Two cyberdynes
 Stainless steel braided lines
 RS*R springs
 Blitz BOV
 K&N FIPK
 2 mitsubishi head gaskets - new
 HKS boost gauge
 Magnecor Spark Plug wires
 Stillen brake pard (rear set) - new
 Hawk Blue racing pad (front set) - new
 4 original mitsubishi oil filters
 Xdrilled rotors (front set) - used
 tons of brake pads - used
 4 Bfgoodrich comp T/A R1s - 100 miles on them (looks brand new) 255/40ZR17
 Some original Mitsubishi belts - new
 and a bunch more little stuff ....
 
 Thanks,
 
 -Hau>> >>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:43:44 EST
From: GC3000GT@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: OE Fog Lights

In a message dated 11/18/98 3:51:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
rleroy@pacifier.com writes:

<< Has anybody found replacement bulbs for the fog lights other than going
 back to Mits or Dodge?  >>

Rich,

The replacement bulb for the 94+ style fog lights (and perhaps even the
91-93's) is an H3 bulb.  Before completely removing mine and replacing them
with a set of Catz XLO's on my '95 3K, I attempted to change the bulbs with a
"blue" H3 bulb from Imparts (www.imparts.com).  Here is the process to remove
the fog light housing - it's pretty straight forward, but be VERY careful not
to strip any screws.  I did, and ended up having to drill one out, which broke
the seal to the housing which is a big no-no.

1)  The black plastic frame with the lens snaps right off of the housing,
exposing a smaller housing with 2 screws on the left and right of the lens. 

2)  When removing these 2 screws, be sure to use EXTRA caution and if
possible, use the longest #2 phillips head screwdriver you can find in order
to get the right amount of torque directed in the center of the screw.  Do NOT
use an electric screwdriver or drill with a phillips bit - as it will strip
these extremely soft screws.

3)  Once this is done, I believe there are 4 more screws holding a faceplate
on.  Again - be very careful and remove these using the same manner as in #2.

4)  Now you can get to the bulb.  Make sure you do not touch the bulb with
your fingers (if you don't think you can do this, put on latex gloves).
Simply unplug the back of the bulb, and plug in the new one.  You're done -
now assemble the housing back together.

Again - this process is easy but not.  One thing you do not have to worry
about at all is the adjustment screw which raises the light up and down.  This
only has to be turned if you are removing the entire housing, which you do not
have to do to do a simple bulb-change.

Good luck, again - BE CAREFUL!!  :)

Gregg  '95 3K
http://members.tripod.com/gcouture
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 14:01:27 -0800
From: Rich <rleroy@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: OE Fog Lights

Greg:

Thanx a bunch for the info and the great directions!

I *knew* this list was good for something ...  ;-)

Rich
Emerald Green 94 R/T
<Winking at oncoming traffic with only one fog light>


GC3000GT@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 11/18/98 3:51:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> rleroy@pacifier.com writes:
>
> << Has anybody found replacement bulbs for the fog lights other than going
>  back to Mits or Dodge?  >>
>
> Rich,
>
> The replacement bulb for the 94+ style fog lights (and perhaps even the
> 91-93's) is an H3 bulb.

<good, clear directions snipped>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 14:42:49 PST
From: "Eric Lotter" <elotter@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rear end shutter under heavye boost/High RPMS

There were a bunch of diagnostics from awd and tranny to suspension and
bad gas.

none were really tested, however, I was able to reproduce the problem in
a second car, where the conditions were, low fuel, high RPMS in third.
It was not rev limited, but may have been some kind of fule cut/power
transfer condition.

I say that it is similar because i drove both vehicles with low fuel
conditions.

The first, where the proble was first seen, a 91' vr-4. The second was
my 95 vr-4.

We shall soon see. The 91 is being brought in for complete diagnosis.

(I must say it will suck if it is AWD/Trany/transfer related as MY car
and not just my sisters have the same symptom!

I will let you know.

Eric

>From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
>Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 19:13:40 -0800
>To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>Subject: Re: Team3S: Rear end shutter under heavye boost/High RPMS
>Reply-To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
>This thread ran out awhile back but without any feedback on the fianl
diagnosis. Was
>there a problem you identified, or did you weary of running checks on
the endless
>possiblities? I ask only to document knowns from unknowns ( infintite
possibles) with
>our cars.
>
>Darc
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 18:30:35 -0800
From: Dave Allison <dave@languys.com>
Subject: Team3S: Knock, knock...

Hiya!

I have some quick questions for Roger Gerl and anyone else who can shed
some light.

I recall in a page on Roger's site that he was getting detonation at 1.05
bars of boost. I also read in a later post to the Team3S list that his
turbos were of the 13g variety.

Were these the turbos he had as stock all along? Did the car come with
these turbos in stock configuration?

Were all the measurements and dyno charts reported, produced from these
larger turbos? (i.e. they're not applicable to a stock US 3000GT VR-4?)

Do you think that the reason he was getting detonation at 1.05bars was due
to the ECU not detecting the knock? Do you think it was at its limit of
timing retard? Is it safe to assume that the stock boost solenoid was being
actuated during this event to eliminate the knock? My understanding is that
countermeasures against knock generally come at a cost of horsepower. If
knock was occuring at 1.05 bars, does this mean that this was the level
where the ECU could no longer compensate with retarded timing, etc? If so,
wouldn't this mean that a lower level of boost would be in a range where
there would be no knock and also no ECU knock countermeasures?

Is there an accurate way to detect knock? How reliable is the method of
monitoring the ignition timing signal from the ECU to signify knock being
detected? Is it safe to assume that boost can be increased to the point
just before the ECU begins to retard ignition to combat detected knock? Is
it stupid to rely on the ECU's anti-knock meaures to save your engine? What
are the pitfalls or shortcomings of the stock ECU countermeasures? Does the
stock knock sensor/ECU program address knock too slowly?

Sorry for the bazillion questions, but I have a bog hole the size of
Montana in my head when it comes to this area of our cars.

Thanks guys!

Dave Allison
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 22:58:59 -0500
From: "Robert T. Rand" <rtr@vnet.net>
Subject: Team3S: Some Transmission info

Thought the group might find the following of some use.

I contacted a transmission company
http://wwv.joelharbinson.com/All-Trans/services.html  today to discuss our
POS Getreg.

This shop will rebuild them for approx 2 grand and some change.  They
currently have to make due with like new used parts in the syncro and gear
area and have a subsidiary that produces the output shafts.
They are currently in the process of doing the tooling to manufacture
replacement syncros and gears and expect these to be available in approx.  7
months.

I asked if they would mind supplying parts used or new to other shops as it
is just not always cost effective to ship the tranny.  They have no problem
doing this.  They also would be interested in discussing failures and
related problems from 3/s owners so they can have a better handle on the
type of demand for these parts.

Hope all view this as some hope for the future.

Bob
93 Stealth TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 19:57:36 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Team3S: Knock, knock...

Hi Dave;

Barry King addressed some of the issues you pose in a posting on KNOCK SENSORS last
Saturday. It doesn't answer all of your questions, but sheds light on some. I know Roger
can, and likely will shed further light....In the interim I, like yourself, am leery of
using my B setting of 1.05 bar, until I am certain I do not get detonation. On thing is
certain...the stock actuator  will not be of any help with an after market BC, as it is
bypassed. So there will be a lag while the ECU tries to direct it into action before it
realizes it is not working, and then opts to retard timing. This lag and the
knock/detonation which occurs within that window may be damaging.

Darc  (Darcy Gunnlaugson)

92 Black TT Stealth   #0145



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 23:43:44 -0500
From: "Fein, Edward" <fein@strategy.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Knock, knock...

Gas quality is also a key factor in determining when knock will occur. The
octane number of gasoline is quite literally an index for its resistance to
knocking. This is why the TT cars require premium fuel - they'll knock at
stock boost levels on 87 octane.

I believe Roger was running 92 octane (the best street gas where he lives).
Most of us run 93 or 94, which affords a small measure of protection.
Lastly, whenever I drive my car hard, I use octane booster. Many others on
the list do the same - it's a smart move to protect the engine. And whenever
its available, you can use 100 or 104 octane unleaded race gas to bump up
your octane count.

Also, Roger ran long hard stretches on the autobahn. This heats the engine,
increasing the likelyhood of knock. 15 seconds on a drag strip or 60 seconds
in an autocross is much safer because the engine is cool (assuming you give
it enough cool-down time between runs).

Understand that what happened to Roger was because he didn't know what was
happening. And it was a reasonable assumption that he would be ok - a
natural mistake any one of us could have made.

We should all learn from Roger's experience. Me, one of the things I did was
gut the pre-cats, to get better evacuation. Less backflow of exhaust gasses
means a cooler combustion chamber means less knock. I made the decision to
do that largely in response to one of Roger's earlier posts about exhaust
backflow causing excessive knock.

   -Ed
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 23:51:25 -0500
From: "Ron-a-roid" <rtetetet@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: OE Fog Lights

If you have the rectangular ones, just unscrew the plastic splash panel and
reach in behind the light. it's really easy this way and you aren't fooling
with a bunch of screws and bezels.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Rich <rleroy@pacifier.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: OE Fog Lights


>Greg:
>
>Thanx a bunch for the info and the great directions!
>
>I *knew* this list was good for something ...  ;-)
>
>Rich
>Emerald Green 94 R/T
><Winking at oncoming traffic with only one fog light>
>
>
>GC3000GT@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> In a message dated 11/18/98 3:51:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>> rleroy@pacifier.com writes:
>>
>> << Has anybody found replacement bulbs for the fog lights other than
going
>>  back to Mits or Dodge?  >>
>>
>> Rich,
>>
>> The replacement bulb for the 94+ style fog lights (and perhaps even the
>> 91-93's) is an H3 bulb.
>
> <good, clear directions snipped>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 01:10:51 -0500
From: josesini <josesini@engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Knock, knock...

>wce@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:
>
><Snip>
>
> On thing is certain...the stock actuator  will not be of any help with an after market
> BC, as it is bypassed. So there will be a lag while the ECU tries to direct it into
> action before it realizes it is not working, and then opts to retard timing. This lag
> and the knock/detonation which occurs within that window may be damaging.

It was my understanding that the computer first tries to retard the
timing, when it ca not retard it anymore (and if knock persists) then it
goes after the stock actuator.

Am I wrong about this?

- -Jose
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 23:23:20 -0800
From: Rich <rleroy@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: OE Fog Lights

Ron-a-roid wrote:
>
> If you have the rectangular ones, just unscrew the plastic splash panel and
> reach in behind the light. it's really easy this way and you aren't fooling
> with a bunch of screws and bezels.

Not an option.  The 94+ models use(d) the round foglights.

Of course, as any believer in Mr. Murphy will understand, within 10
minutes of getting home tonight I found my manual.

Now, if I can only find that winning lottery ticket ....  :-)

Rich
Emerald Green 94 R/T
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 09:33:08 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Knock, knock...

"Fein, Edward" wrote:
>
> Gas quality is also a key factor in determining when knock will occur. The
> octane number of gasoline is quite literally an index for its resistance to
> knocking. This is why the TT cars require premium fuel - they'll knock at
> stock boost levels on 87 octane.
>
> I believe Roger was running 92 octane (the best street gas where he lives).
> Most of us run 93 or 94, which affords a small measure of protection.
> Lastly, whenever I drive my car hard, I use octane booster. Many others on
> the list do the same - it's a smart move to protect the engine. And whenever
> its available, you can use 100 or 104 octane unleaded race gas to bump up
> your octane count.
>
> Also, Roger ran long hard stretches on the autobahn. This heats the engine,
> increasing the likelyhood of knock. 15 seconds on a drag strip or 60 seconds
> in an autocross is much safer because the engine is cool (assuming you give
> it enough cool-down time between runs).
>
> Understand that what happened to Roger was because he didn't know what was
> happening. And it was a reasonable assumption that he would be ok - a
> natural mistake any one of us could have made.
>
> We should all learn from Roger's experience. Me, one of the things I did was
> gut the pre-cats, to get better evacuation. Less backflow of exhaust gasses
> means a cooler combustion chamber means less knock. I made the decision to
> do that largely in response to one of Roger's earlier posts about exhaust
> backflow causing excessive knock.
>
>    -Ed
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

- --
- -----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,SBOV,ATR DP/cat,
Borla,OZ Mito2,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,Bremsa brakes,Pagid RS-R pads
Ready: GT-Alley 368S Turbos,front mount IC/ stainless steel piping,G-Force ECU
(3 EPROMS),fuel pump,VPC,GCC,720 Injectors,Blitz Filter/GT-Alley VPC adapter,
Maybe: f.aluminum pistons (if rebuild needed)
Visit my homepage under: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 09:32:53 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Knock, knock..(kinda long)

Hi Dave (et all),

I think I try to answer the questions myself :)

>         Were these the turbos he had as stock all along? Did the car come with
> these turbos in stock configuration?

Yes, the European 3000GT TwinTurbo (we only have VR4) have some differencies
nobody really can tell. That's why we find them out from time to time. The
numbers on the turbos show that they are 13G and are probably made for our high
speeds on the Autobahn.

>         Were all the measurements and dyno charts reported, produced from these
> larger turbos? (i.e. they're not applicable to a stock US 3000GT VR-4?)

Yes, unfortunately this is the case. But please also note that on the first dyno
session the engine was already weak and only the next one will be a real one. I
do have an older dyno slip where the car showed DIN 352hp at only 0.7bars of
boost.

>         Do you think that the reason he was getting detonation at 1.05bars
> was due to the ECU not detecting the knock? Do you think it was at its limit
> of timing retard? Is it safe to assume that the stock boost solenoid was being
> actuated during this event to eliminate the knock? My understanding is that
> countermeasures against knock generally come at a cost of horsepower.

Well, this is interesting but one of the slips are showing the power loss due to
the retarded timing. Also on my street testings I runned into fuel cut at low
boost. If the ECU cannot retard anymore it shuts down the injectors. Of course
in an earlier stage it just closes the stock solenoid to try to prevent more
boost. Of course the boost solenoid was actuated all the time because it does
when boost reaches about 0.5bars (calculated)

> If knock was occuring at 1.05 bars, does this mean that this was the level
> where the ECU could no longer compensate with retarded timing, etc? If so,
> wouldn't this mean that a lower level of boost would be in a range where
> there would be no knock and also no ECU knock countermeasures?

The dyno slip showed no power loss at 1.1bars but high speed knock was hearable
by the dyno guy (with the hose to ear-adapter, hehe) We then lowered boost by
0.1bar steps and became fine at 1.05bars. Short overboosts to 1.1bars where not
hearable due to the fast rpm change. Lower boost means less need of fuel and
therefore more headroom for the system. Also it is very dependend on the health
of the engine !

>      Is there an accurate way to detect knock?

Hmm, reading the knock sensor directly is not very safe as this is only a piezo
microphone that gives an increased voltage when more noise appears. But this
must then be filtered by the ECUs electronic.

> How reliable is the method of monitoring the ignition timing signal from the
> ECU to signify knock being detected?

I think it assumes at first that the solenoid valve is closed and therefore
boost is lowered and therefore changes the fuel maps until it acts upon knock.
Well who really knows ?

> Is it safe to assume that boost can be increased to the point
> just before the ECU begins to retard ignition to combat detected knock?

No. We had to lower boost from a level no retard was seen. But I must admit that
we had no logging device that would show the timing. We just saw the values on
the dynos display.

> Is it stupid to rely on the ECU's anti-knock meaures to save your engine?

Yes, it is stupid. The only real thing is having an EGT in the headers before
the turbos. This is the only thing that is able to tell you the causes for
knock. Why listen to knock and not listen the causes of it ?? This is more
accurate and it assurs you if you are running lean or rich. Only looking at the
O2 sensors is also not that good because they are probably too slow and also in
the after-turbo part of the exhaust.

> What are the pitfalls or shortcomings of the stock ECU countermeasures? Does
> the stock knock sensor/ECU program address knock too slowly?

Even it doesn't show the check engine light when it runs in emergency mode !
This is not good. I don't rely on the ECUs knock detection !

> Sorry for the bazillion questions, but I have a bog hole the size of
> Montana in my head when it comes to this area of our cars.

This are really good questions and a good base for discussion. I'm sure others
will be of more knowledge and can add their experiences.

Later,
Roger

- -----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 09:57:11 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Knock, knock...

Argh, sorry I hit the send button before writing anything... call me stupid !
Please apologize to dub Eds post.

But her it comes :)

> Gas quality is also a key factor in determining when knock will occur.

Well, we all have to think about what causes detonation ! Obviously this is a
lean and hot situation and therefore we have to watch the causes for such
situations and not the ECU like it tries to get rid of the problem. Of course
gas quality is one key factor and it helps as it also helps to spray more and
more fuel into the chambers to cool them down preventing knock. Not the best
idea because its fighting not the causes for the problem but it works.

> I believe Roger was running 92 octane (the best street gas where he lives).

Our gas I run is rated at 98ROZ. Jim Matthews told me that this equals to the
94octane rated gas in the US.

> Lastly, whenever I drive my car hard, I use octane booster.

Unfortunately these add-ons are forbidden in Switzerland and I can't find any
bottle. I hope to be in the UK again sometimes to fill up a plane for me :) I
cannot tell from any experiences but I hope that an EGT in the headers should
show lower temperatures when using octane booster at the same boost and
environment.

> Also, Roger ran long hard stretches on the autobahn. This heats the engine,
> increasing the likelyhood of knock.

Absolutely correct ! The German Autobahn isn't flat and there are a lot hills
where I drove for 10 minutes showing 1.2bars all the time. I then was able to
hear knock but the car still felt strong. Was my ECU not listening to the
detonation sensor (microphone) ??

> Understand that what happened to Roger was because he didn't know what was
> happening. And it was a reasonable assumption that he would be ok - a
> natural mistake any one of us could have made.

No, to be honest, I didn't listen to what others on the lists(s) told. And also
I thought that if I really run into knock the ECU will have the securities built
in to prevent any damage. Also I always felt that the hesitation is that the car
is runnign out of fuel spray into the chambers and thought adding a fuel pump
and bigger injectors would help. No, as the ECU jumps out the MAP and into the
fuel cut really fast when trying to increase the fuel delivery. I did this with
the AFC and runned into FC at 1.0 bars then. Finally the hesitation IS retarded
timing due to knock !

> We should all learn from Roger's experience.

Yes, please do so. But as I said, I was an ignorant and killed the engine due to
this ! I learned my lesson well and will install the EGT meter as soon as I get
it and the car back.

> Me, one of the things I did was gut the pre-cats, to get better evacuation.
> Less backflow of exhaust gasses means a cooler combustion chamber means less
> knock.

One problem we saw was that the pressure before the turbos became too high and
therefore pressed to gases back to the chambers causing a lean situation and
therefore knock. At around 5000rpms this is hearable as it becomes continous
knock but when accelerating quick and shifting hard this can only be happen to a
short time and it's possible in only one chamber as then the pressure could be
gone after a third of a revolution. This is called "high speed knock" (ok, we
here in Europe call this). It is a higher frequency than "normal" knock that can
be heard from the drivers seat. Hmmm, maybe the electronics in our ECU filters
this higher frequencies out and therefore cannot listen to it ? Or as this knock
is not continous the glitch in the ECU program thinks it is false knock ?

To have to full overview on a system we should install the EGTs into the headers
as well as a pressure sensor. With only this it is possible to see problems
starting BEFORE running into knock.

Unfortunately, I haven't got the parts I wanted to install in time and therefore
will run the car with the 13Gs and stock parts over the winter time. At this
time I'll have the chance to put the adapters and EGT sensors into the new
headers from Brian (GT Alley) in the hope to get real figures then.

One hint : Listen to your engine ... and friends with so much experience !

Cheers,
Roger

- -----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,SBOV,ATR DP/cat,
Borla,OZ Mito2,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,Bremsa brakes,Pagid RS-R pads,
13Gs (stock EU)

Visit my homepage under: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 08:30:23 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Team3S: Knock, knock...

josesini wrote:

> It was my understanding that the computer first tries to retard the
> timing, when it ca not retard it anymore (and if knock persists) then it
> goes after the stock actuator.
>
> Am I wrong about this?

Who really knows Jose?  As it was recently explained to me..."the mysteries of the ECU are
understood by very very few". I would think, however, that progressive timing retard intoa
full  emmergency mode, would negate any need to action the actuator at all...hence my reason
(however flawed it may be) for thinking the stock solenoid was likely the first line of
action...which in the case of an after market BC, is now a widget with nothing to do but
receive signals (and not action them).

Darcy

92 Stealth TT.......#0145

>
>
> -Jose
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



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