--

From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com (Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S Digest V1 #17
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
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Precedence: bulk

Team3S Digest Thursday, November 5 1998 Volume 01 : Number 017

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:39:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: gutting the cat

Yeah, I've heard all kinds of horror stories of NT S/3K owners going to a
larger diameter exhaust system, only to lose all kinds of performance.
Call me "Joe Conservative", but I think I'll stay OEM!

Speaking of air flow, it's been a few months since the starnet group
started discussing removal of the resonator on the intake. (Cooler
sounding, supposedly better hp or torque.) Has anyone here done that?
Any long-term problems cropped up related to this little trick? Real
performance modifier, or purely aural aesthetic results?

Thanks.

Dennis Moore
stealth@kiva.net

On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, R.G. wrote:
[snip]
> PS:
> Please note, that gutting the cats on your NT car could lower your performance
> due to the loss of backpressure. Maybe you'll gain top end power but loosing
> some low end tourque.
>
> -----------------------
> Roger Gerl, Switzerland
> 93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 15:50:52 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: gutting the cat

I really doubt the resonator mod does anything noticable for increased
performance. All the resonator is doing is vibrating a column of air at a
certain frequencies to counteract intake tract noises at certain
frequencies. Any performance increase will be minimal at best.

I used to work in the performance motorcycle industry. Guys would come in
and order a pipe (header/exhaust system). They'd install it without doing
any airbox or filter mods, or changing the jetting. They'd come back after
it was installed and swear up and down the bike was faster. On the dyno
they'd usually make anywhere from 5 HP LESS to 1-2 HP more. Opening up the
intake and rejetting could net a gain of 5-10 HP depending upon the bike.

The moral of the story is looks fast, sounds fast IS fast. The butt dyno
can't discern 10 HP one way or the other in a heavy car for an experienced
person let alone Joe Blow (apologies to anyone who actually owns that name).

Regards,

Barry

<snipped>

> Speaking of air flow, it's been a few months since the starnet group
> started discussing removal of the resonator on the intake. (Cooler
> sounding, supposedly better hp or torque.) Has anyone here done that?
> Any long-term problems cropped up related to this little trick? Real
> performance modifier, or purely aural aesthetic results?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Dennis Moore
> stealth@kiva.net

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 20:25:46 -0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: gutting the cat

- -----Original Message-----From: Dennis Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
- -------snip--------
|Speaking of air flow, it's been a few months since the starnet group
|started discussing removal of the resonator on the intake. (Cooler
|sounding, supposedly better hp or torque.) Has anyone here done that?

Hey, Dennis,

I think you're the only NT guy I know of that HASN'T taken off the
resonator. The resonator disturbs the airflow so as to quiet noise, but by
removing it, the straighter path does give a performance increase AND a
throatier sound. For the logic of it, just think of it as akin to
installing polished headers: reduce the intake resistance and you get a gain
in HP. The guy at my dealership told me about the mod, so I've had mine off
since I bought the car. Just before I put on my FIPK, I put the resonator
BACK on for a couple of runs to see what the difference was, and there WAS a
difference of .1 or .2 sec, 0-60.

BTW, for anyone who's too shy to ask, I've got a description of how it's
done on Eric's site, it's at www.3Si.com . And another thing... Someone
else has a DIY description with pictures on their site, where they replaced
the resonator with another plastic bottle (instead of the bottle CAP)!!!
Putting another bottle there makes no sense at all, unless they left the cap
on (in which case they wouldn't need the bottle itself!?)... Use a bottle
cap that fits, inside out to try to smooth out the path of the air intake as
much as possible. It'll take you 5 minutes...

Best,

Forrest

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 20:41:05 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: gutting the cat

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Bob Forrest wrote:

> BTW, for anyone who's too shy to ask, I've got a description of how it's
> done on Eric's site, it's at www.3Si.com .

Okay Bob, this is the second time in 2 days that you've posted a www reference site
without the http prefix for all of us who do not use Billy's system. We get no blue
hypertext to double click on when you do this dude. It really is a major inconvenience
for those of us who do not know how to use the keyboard to manually input this stuff, or
in fact, know how to digit dial. : ) : ) ; ) HUH?

Darc

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<HTML>
 

Bob Forrest wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>

BTW, for anyone who's too shy to ask, I've got a description of how
it's
 done on Eric's site, it's at www.3Si.com .</BLOCKQUOTE>
Okay Bob, this is the second time in 2 days that you've posted a www reference
site without the http prefix for all of us who do not use Billy's
system. We get no blue hypertext to double click on when you do
this dude. It really is a major inconvenience for those of us who do not
know how to use the keyboard to manually input this stuff, or in fact,
know how to digit dial. : )  : ) ; ) HUH?

Darc</HTML>

- --------------3D2AD8BF6BA541FD66F42619--

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:34:05 +0100
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?=" <vr4@bahnhof.se>
Subject: Team3S: Air to water intercooler

Another stupid idea from the Swede :)

I'm planning to go with a air to water intercooler instead of air to air like everyone else is using.

There are some really good advantages with a water cooled intercooler.
- - The intercooler are alot smaller than an air/air intercooler
- - The air/water intercooler always have full effect even from idle with ofcourse will be a very big advatage for dragracing, the air/air intercooler will not do any good before the car has came up to speed.
- - for dragracing the intercooler can be chilled with icewater to be even more efficient.
- - The air intakes in the front can be used for cooling brakes and fresh air to the intake system.

The question now is: Does anyone have any good information about air/water intercoolers. I know that Spearco have them, do anyone know if they have a web page?

Any information will be great.

Thanks

Mikael http://www.bahnhof.se/~vr4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 01:38:40 -0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S: Resonator... Was: gutting the cat

OK; for Darcy, and others, the resonator mod (for Non-Turbo S/3k...) is at:
http://www.3Si.com and the Radar Detector reference I made previously is:
http://www.3000gt.com/radar.htm

But you're going to have to figure out how to send your mail as text
(instead of HTML) by yourself... ;-)

Best,

Forrest

 --Original Message--From:wce@bc.sympatico.ca
 Okay Bob, this is the second time in 2 days that you've posted a www
reference site without the http prefix for all of us who do not use Billy's
system. We get no blue hypertext to double click on when you do this dude.
It really is a major inconvenience for those of us who do not know how to
use the keyboard to manually input this stuff, or in fact, know how to digit
dial. : ) : ) ; ) HUH?

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 05:27:37 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Air to water intercooler

Air to water i/c is definitely a good idea and has a cool gee-whiz factor.
However, a few probelms with them make them not practical for a street
driven vehicle.

Eventually the water will get to ambient air temperature or above. After
that the benefits begin to dwindle rapidly. To avoid or at least defer that
problem you need to get the water out of the hot engine compartment. That's
going to be even more difficult.

Using engine coolant in our cars is likely worse than an air-air charge
cooler in the long run if not outright.

If you are only concerned ONLY about dragracing and not everyday
performance, air-water is good if you use chilled water.

Now, if you could put that air conditioner to use chilling the exchanger's
water while you weren't worried about performance, that might be another
story...

Anyone tempted to suggest anything other than water (like alcohol and such,
not liquid nitrogen silly boys) alcohol is far less effective at cooling
than water. Pure water has a high specific heat of evaporation and thereby
cools much better than most other readily available practical liquids. The
only reason people mix alcohol and water when injected (see below) is due
help the water through the combustion chamber AFTER the water has done its
cooling thing in the intake tract. Alcohol is hydroscopic (?) anyway, it
mixes easily with water allowing it to be more easily combusted in the
cylinder.

For anything else, air-air is still the way to go. Based on Brad Bedell's
hard numbers measured pre and post exchanger his FMIC works amazingly well.
Hard to believe almost.

In order to read more, there is good information at Allied Signal websites
around the world. Go to the Garret turbo division pages. Sorry, no URL
handy but it will be easy to find if you do a search. lso check out the
numerous WRC sites. Those guys know a lot about intercooling but carefully
consider the context in which they are espousings the pros (or cons) of any
given approach.

I have given this a lot of thought. A combination approach for the best of
both worlds? Not practical and you'll be adding weight to the car in
addition to either complicated switchable pumbing or excessive pressure drop
if you used both at the same time.

Intercooler sprayers for the existing air-air exchangers? Excellent and
proven effective in many types of racing. Eventually you run out of water
to spray. Really only worth it if air is moving across the exchanger.

If you want really good intercooling with additional anti-detonation
benefits go with water or water/alcohol injection. It sprays only at boost
beginning at whatever you set so a gallon or so will last quite a while.
The kits can be had cheap. They definitely work on both counts. Indy cars
in years gone by used NO mechanical device for intercooling BUT spraying
water ONLY. It works extremely well. However, the Indy cars sprayed
directly onto the compressor wheel which caused premature wear, not a good
idea for a daily driver, so you'd want to spray into the Y-pipe upstream of
the throttle body. You will not get any better intercooling effect period.

All that said, if you MUST have air-water make sure you send us pictures.
;)

Regards,

Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Mikael Åkesson
> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 2:34 AM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Team3S: Air to water intercooler
>
>
> Another stupid idea from the Swede :)
>
> I'm planning to go with a air to water intercooler instead of air
> to air like everyone else is using.

<snipped>

>
> Thanks
>
> Mikael http://www.bahnhof.se/~vr4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:12:09 +0100
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?=" <vr4@bahnhof.se>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Air to water intercooler

Thanks Barry! Great info as allways.

Everything you say sounds good.

I also thought about how to cool the water so it stays cool all the time. Actually it's very easy to do. You need some kind of tank for the water and then pump water from the tank to the intercooler, from the intercooler to a front mounted air/air cooler like a normal engine cooler, and after that back into the tank. The bigger tank and air/air water cooler you have the cooler the water will stay. I'm sure someone with common knowledge about cooler systems easily can calculate the amount of water the system have to contain. With a setup like this the water never will have higher temperature (maybe slightly higher) than the outside air and that is ofcourse also the maximum faktor of an air/air intercooler.

Peugeot are using air/water systems on their 405 T16 and I can get two of their intercoolers for ~1.100$, a small radiator for the front will cost ~100$ and a bump will cost ~100$. One more good factor is that it's possible to shorten the tubes from turbo to intake alot compared to having the intercoolers in the fenders.

Yeah I know... I'm stupid :)

/Mikael

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 17:07:55 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Air to water intercooler

> Peugeot are using air/water systems on their 405 T16 and I can get two of
> their intercoolers for ~1.100$, a small radiator for the front will cost
> ~100$ and a bump will cost ~100$.

I thought I knew the 405 T16 pretty well but I never noticed that they are
having water ICs. I think there should some wrecks lying around at the salvage
yards and maybe you can use pump and IC from them for only a few bucks.

> One more good factor is that it's possible to shorten the tubes from turbo to
> intake alot compared to having the intercoolers in the fenders.

Have you thought about where to install the canister type water IC ? I just
don't know where you want to install them. I found an alloy Water IC from
AH-Fabrications UK (£430) with 2 1/2" Air and 5/8" water connections but its
size is 420mm x 325mm x 145mm.

I'll go with the big front IC from GT-Alley. This also eliminates the side IC
and will give me some more room for cooling and fresh-air projects :) Also the
fact that only one large pipe runs from the IC directly to the TB is a good
solution (IMHO, of course). I'll attach hose- and sensor-fittings to the piping
to be able to measure temperature and boost before and after IC to get the real
efficiency of the system.

> Yeah I know... I'm stupid :)

Guess what I am .....

Later,
Roger

- -----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:43:51 -0600
From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@texas.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Air to water intercooler

I know for a fact when building my 400hp MR2, some of the routes I took the
"experts" considered me stupid.

When time came to test the theories, some of mine actually worked. The
stupid person is one who is afraid to try the idea they truly believe in.

Mikael WAKE UP! Try your ideas and tell us about them. I have always felt
a properly designed Water to Air IC would be awesome on a drag race vehicle.

Relocate the battery mount the IC in its place and shorten all the
intercooler plumbing by several meters.

> Brad
>
> Check out my home page: http://lonestar.texas.net/~bbedell
> E-Mail: bbedell@texas.net ICQ# 3612682

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com] On Behalf Of Mikael Åkesson
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 8:12 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Air to water intercooler

Peugeot are using air/water systems on their 405 T16 and I can get two of
their intercoolers for ~1.100$, a small radiator for the front will cost
~100$ and a bump will cost ~100$. One more good factor is that it's possible
to shorten the tubes from turbo to intake alot compared to having the
intercoolers in the fenders.

Yeah I know... I'm stupid :)

/Mikael

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:00:41 +0100
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?= <vr4@bahnhof.se>
Subject: Team3S: The new super duper clutch :)

Hi ALL !!

I'm glad to inform you that I now have a new clutch in my car. It works great.

BUT the drivability is somewhat... hmmm... let's call it binary. It is possible to slip the clutch but it feels very much like a binary on/off switch. :)

Totall cost 585$ including installation and resurfaced flywheel :)

Look at my home page to c pictures and get more info about it.

http://www.bahnhof.se/~vr4

/Mikael
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 13:15:25 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Team3S: Resonator... Was: gutting the cat

Thanks Bob;

...from myself and the rest of the challenged crowd. You're a genteleman and a
s.....mmmm...are those cowboy boots? : )

Darc

Bob Forrest wrote:

> OK; for Darcy, and others, the resonator mod (for Non-Turbo S/3k...) is at:
> http://www.3Si.com and the Radar Detector reference I made previously is:
> http://www.3000gt.com/radar.htm
>
> But you're going to have to figure out how to send your mail as text
> (instead of HTML) by yourself... ;-)
>
> Best,
>
> Forrest
>
> --Original Message--From:wce@bc.sympatico.ca
> Okay Bob, this is the second time in 2 days that you've posted a www
> reference site without the http prefix for all of us who do not use Billy's
> system. We get no blue hypertext to double click on when you do this dude.
> It really is a major inconvenience for those of us who do not know how to
> use the keyboard to manually input this stuff, or in fact, know how to digit
> dial. : ) : ) ; ) HUH?
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:22:32 -0500 (EST)
From: JEEPers <fxc9364@megahertz.njit.edu>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Air to water intercooler

I believe that Diamante wagon that uses the same Mitsu 3.0 engine had a
set-up like it. I have the article for it but I gotta dig it up. It talks
about a custom IC mounted in the area where the airbox is on a stock
VR-4. This is the same general place and it is a custom one made by one
of the Cali firms who do ICs. Anyhow, it was one of the Turbo writers or
editors who have it. If you want, I can try to locate it and see if that
is useful for you guys. ... Let me know though.

 Frank
 -JEEPers-
"Kung-Fu Forrest"

MY WEB PAGE IS UP AT http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Canyon/6045/

"Jeep is America's only real sports car" Mr. Enzo Ferrari

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------------------------------

End of Team3S Digest V1 #17
***************************

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