--

From: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com (Team3S Digest)
To: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S Digest V1 #10
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Errors-To: owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
Precedence: bulk


Team3S Digest       Wednesday, October 28 1998       Volume 01 : Number 010




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:24:08 EST
From: LotoBoost@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification of the EU turbos

In a message dated 10/27/98 1:39:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, vr4@bahnhof.se
writes:

<< AND my car also holds 15psi all the way upp to redline. Let's face it!
Blitz rules ;) >>

heh..  I still dont see how a particular boost controller can make the stock
9B's hold more boost than any other.  I mean for peetes sakes, pull the
wastegate accuators and you'll see what full boost is through redline.

I think there's something wrong with your motor and its creating excessive
back pressure, or maybe your exhuast isn't up to par.  If you run 11's with
those turbos let me know, and then your more than likely holding 15psi through
redline with a sound motor! :)

Doesn't buy into the "Blitz rules all",
Mike Mahaffey - '94 Stealth tt Best et: 11.6  Best mph: 120.7
                      - 12.1's with stock motor/turbos redlining at 10.5psi
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:05:25 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <middaugh@omega.gat.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification of the EU turbos

>
>
> << AND my car also holds 15psi all the way upp to redline. Let's face it!
> Blitz rules ;) >>
>
> heh..  I still dont see how a particular boost controller can make the stock
> 9B's hold more boost than any other.  I mean for peetes sakes, pull the
> wastegate accuators and you'll see what full boost is through redline.

Actually, this is not true.  A given turbo has it's optimum operating range over a
specific range of exhaust pressure on the input turbine.  If there is too little
exhaust pressure (low RPM or light throttle) or too much exhaust pressure (WOT at high
RPM), then the turbo won't be within its optimum range and lower boost pressure will
result.  This is why the boost pressure falls as RPM rise while using a bleeder valve
or the stock boost control lines are disconnected.  An electronic boost controller can
rapidly cycle the waste gates to prevent excessive pressure on the input turbine, thus
keeping the turbo within it's optimum operating range and maintaining the maximum
boost/cfm the turbo can provide.

Below is an excellent post from the DSM list on turbo theory that Chris Dotur reposted
to the starnet list earlier this year.

- --

Ken Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510

<<< INCLUDED POST
Another tidbit I thought should be passed on from the DSM list....

Chris

Well, let's kick off a new theory session, shall we?

If you haven't done so, go use the Archive Search Engine and read my
previous series on Turbo Theory. We're going to get into some meaty
stuff here, and if you don't know the basics, you'll get lost.

So - Turbo Sizing:

Both ends of the turbocharger are turbines (well, strictly speaking the
hot end is a turbine, the cold end is a radial compressor - but I'll use
"turbine" here to mean "thingy with sorta-fan-shaped blades on it that
rotates and does stuff with gases") - and one of the defining
characteristics of turbines is that they are very efficient within a
certain range of operation.

That is, they like to be run at a constant speed, and at that constant
speed, they will work _very_ well. Run them too fast, or too slow, and
efficiency suffers very badly, as things like cavitation and surge add
heat to the outflow.

Consider this: The Ideal Gas Law tells us that when we compress air, the
temperature of this air goes up. This is a law of nature, there is
_nothing_ that can be done to prevent this from happening. However, it
is certainly possible to impart even _more_ heat into the airflow by
overspeeding/underspeeding the compressor.

This is bad.

To make the maximum amount of power possible, we need to keep every
single excess calorie out of the output air we can. Yes, we will be
running that air through an intercooler later, but there are practical
limits to how much heat we can pull out of the airstream with our
intercooler. The less heat coming into the intercooler in the first
place, the lower we can make the outlet temperature. The lower the I/C
outlet temperature, the more power we make. (Increased density, reduced
chance of detonation)

Heat MATTERS.

As it turns out, the two variables that control the efficiency of a
compressor are 1) The amount of airflow we need it to be able to push,
and 2) how much we want this airflow compressed, expressed as a pressure
ratio.

Well whaddya know, we can compute this fairly easily!

First, we need the amount of airflow without any turbo, which is:

(CID * MAX_RPM * VE) / (3456) = CFM

Plugging in the values for the 2.0l Mitsu, we get:

(121.9 * 7200 * .85) / (3456) = 216 CFM
{Is my displacement value right? I'm working from memory}

Next, we need to decide how much boost we intend to run.

That's right, decide how much boost you intend to run FIRST. Installing
a turbo, then cranking up the boost to make it go faster is
bass-ackwards. By cranking up the boost on a properly sized turbo, you
are changing one of the variables that determine efficiency, and so you
are imparting MORE heat into your intake charge. Yes, you make more
power at higher boost levels, but you are making FAR LESS power than you
would if the turbo had been sized for that boost level in the first
place.

Heat MATTERS.

We'll use 14.7 PSI for this example. (you'll see why in a sec)

Pressure ratio is (BOOST + 14.7) / 14.7 (remember that 14.4 psi is
atmospheric pressure, so our pressure ratio is (14.7 + 14.7) / 14.7 = 2.

Heh. :) So I cheat. Sue me.

Now we need to find out how much airflow we have at 14.7 psi of boost.

FULL_BOOST_CFM = PRESSURE_RATIO * NA_CFM
               = 2 * 216
               = 416 CFM

Let's also work out the CFM we first want to see full boost at:
(121.9 * 3000 * .85) / 3456 * 2 = 180 CFM

So, we now have an onset CFM value, a max CFM value and a pressure ratio
value. We can now get our hands on a whole bunch of pressure maps from
the turbo manufacturers, and pick the turbo that is the most efficient
at these points.

Pressure map?

That's a graph that has CFM on the x-axis and pressure ratio on the
y-axis. Lines that join points of equal efficiency are plotted in the
middle, the same way contour lines join points of equal altitude on a
topographical map. I can't do one in ASCII art, sorry. :(

By plotting the intersection of onset CFM and pressure ratio, max CFM
and pressure ratio, and joining the dots, we get a line that represents
the operating range of the turbo. By comparing the maps of all the
turbos we can find to this line, we can pick the turbo that gives us the
best efficiency numbers across this line.

...or you can call the manufacturers, give them the numbers, and let
THEM do the comparing for you. :)

Ta daa! We've sized our first compressor.

(The hot side turbine we'll discuss later)

This of course, begs the question: "How much power will this make?"

And the answer is... a topic for later discussion. :)

DG
>>>

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 14:31:51 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification of the EU turbos

Ken Middaugh commented on the following comments (prior to my ending comment) in the pre
dawn dimness of the late twentieth century:

> >
> >
> > << AND my car also holds 15psi all the way upp to redline. Let's face it!
> > Blitz rules ;) >>
> >
> > heh..  I still dont see how a particular boost controller can make the stock
> > 9B's hold more boost than any other.  I mean for peetes sakes, pull the
> > wastegate accuators and you'll see what full boost is through redline.
>
> Actually, this is not true.  A given turbo has it's optimum operating range over a
> specific range of exhaust pressure on the input turbine.  If there is too little
> exhaust pressure (low RPM or light throttle) or too much exhaust pressure (WOT at high
> RPM), then the turbo won't be within its optimum range and lower boost pressure will
> result.  This is why the boost pressure falls as RPM rise while using a bleeder valve
> or the stock boost control lines are disconnected.  An electronic boost controller can
> rapidly cycle the waste gates to prevent excessive pressure on the input turbine, thus
> keeping the turbo within it's optimum operating range and maintaining the maximum
> boost/cfm the turbo can provide.

So, what I hear you aying here Ken, and what the claims of the Blitz dual crowd are, is
that the dual solenoid  setup can operate faster at opening and closing than the single
solenoid setup, of say Apexi. (I just purchased the latter incidentally, because it seems
more applicable to street use, where it's track errr true record shows that it's response
time at the low end is superior to Blitz. If you want a track car with major mods, lots of
adjustable features, bells and whistles, then Blitz seems to be the consensus BC. But Jim.
Barry, Errin, Jack, myself, and a few others, have gone with Apexi for reasons
stated...and perhaps for ones not noted. : )

Darc

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 14:42:00 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Team3S: Subtle reminder

Hi lads;

Another generic reminder...delete all (ie: snip) inappropriate or
otherwise unrelated information from your RESPONSE before you send it.
We don't need the whole thread included. Disregard this reminder if not
applicable.

Yet another  reminder...no warm fuzzies on this list. It's
(metaphorically) for those of you who drink it back or on the rocks.

Gotta hate these recent threads if you're into fashion!!!  Too much
grease!  : ) : ) : ) FFO.

Darc

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:41:27 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <middaugh@omega.gat.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification of the EU turbos

> So, what I hear you aying here Ken, and what the claims of the Blitz dual crowd are, is
> that the dual solenoid  setup can operate faster at opening and closing than the single
> solenoid setup, of say Apexi. (I just purchased the latter incidentally, because it seems
> more applicable to street use, where it's track errr true record shows that it's response
> time at the low end is superior to Blitz. If you want a track car with major mods, lots of
> adjustable features, bells and whistles, then Blitz seems to be the consensus BC. But Jim.
> Barry, Errin, Jack, myself, and a few others, have gone with Apexi for reasons
> stated...and perhaps for ones not noted. : )

I didn't say that.  Did I say that? :)  I'm not in the "best boost controller" debate (I am
in the BC information gathering mode however).

Your deduction might be correct though.  The dual solenoid setup might be better at
controlling the wastegates.  However I think any boost controller's effectiveness is a
function of both it's hardware and software together.  Perhaps a dual solenoid Apexi would be
the ultimate BC providing both quick low end response and high RPM boost hold capability!
Hmmm, just a thought.

- --

Ken Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 16:08:37 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification of the EU turbos

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> Darc commented on Ken's below quoted input thusly:



> I didn't say that.  Did I say that? :)  I'm not in the "best boost controller" debate (I am
> in the BC information gathering mode however).

I am in that mode as well Ken... sorry to appear less than that, and appologies for any perceived
assumptions made to suggest otherwise on your great input....the ultimate BC is  as you suggest,
somewhere between the two (or four +..I keep forgetting the others) and the manufacturers should
be dancing in the streets for the free infortmation provided here.

>
>
> Your deduction might be correct though.  The dual solenoid setup might be better at
> controlling the wastegates.

Actually it is not mine...Chein at Nexus, Jim, and others have suggested it before I did...but
because it was in personal e-mail, it did not appear here.

> However I think any boost controller's effectiveness is a
> function of both it's hardware and software together.  Perhaps a dual solenoid Apexi would be
> the ultimate BC providing both quick low end response and high RPM boost hold capability!
> Hmmm, just a thought.

And a good thought at that.

Darc

>



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<HTML>

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Darc commented on Ken's below quoted input thusly:</BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;&nbsp;
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>I didn't say that.&nbsp; Did I say that? :)&nbsp;
I'm not in the "best boost controller" debate (I am
<BR>in the BC information gathering mode however).</BLOCKQUOTE>
I am in that mode as well Ken... sorry to appear less than that, and appologies
for any perceived assumptions made to suggest otherwise on your great input....the
ultimate BC is&nbsp; as you suggest, somewhere between the two (or four
+..I keep forgetting the others) and the manufacturers should be dancing
in the streets for the free infortmation provided here.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>&nbsp;

<P>Your deduction might be correct though.&nbsp; The dual solenoid setup
might be better at
<BR>controlling the wastegates.</BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually it is not mine...Chein at Nexus, Jim, and others have suggested
it before I did...but because it was in personal e-mail, it did not appear
here.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>However I think any boost controller's effectiveness
is a
<BR>function of both it's hardware and software together.&nbsp; Perhaps
a dual solenoid Apexi would be
<BR>the ultimate BC providing both quick low end response and high RPM
boost hold capability!
<BR>Hmmm, just a thought.</BLOCKQUOTE>
And a good thought at that.

<P>Darc
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE><A HREF="http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm"></A>&nbsp;</BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;</HTML>

- --------------CDB2138D117165FEB0E3F220--

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 19:53:17 -0800
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Subject: Team3S: Abbreviations

We need to sort out some of our abbreviations/slang for posterity.

So here's the list...fill in the blanks and repost it for those of us
with a learning disadvantage...you will be graded on this short quiz, so
assume nothing, including what appears to be give away points. : )

BC       Boost Controller: (1) APEXI-AVC-R (single solenoid)
                                       (2) BLITZ- DS (dual solenoid)
                                       (3) GREDDY
                                       (4) HKS

EGT's   Exhaust Gas Temperatures
                                      -  A thermal EGT sensor and guage
for monitoring the same
                                         are recommended if you have
major mods.
MASC     (we need a good definition here... a new product >>> TRE MASC)
MAS
AFR
EGT
Spool Up
Boost
EBP   Exhaust back pressure....effects both spool up and boost
ECU
DQ    Dumb question...there are none..so don't preface queries with such
a statement.. ......... you're either brave or you're not!
WOT

Please add other abbreviations/slang to this list and repost it at the
appropriate time...which is when you see it, are confused, or when you
coin the term/s.

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 02:12:34 -0500
From: josesini <josesini@engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Abbreviations

I've filled out some of the list below (look for the *).  Please correct
me if I'm wrong.

Jose
92 TT

wce@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:
>
><SNIP>
>
> BC...........Boost Controller: (1) APEXI-AVC-R (single solenoid)
>                                (2) BLITZ- DS (dual solenoid)
>                                (3) GREDDY
>                                (4) HKS
*                                (5) SARD
>
> EGT's........Exhaust Gas Temperatures -  A thermal EGT sensor and guage
>              for monitoring the same are recommended if you have major mods.
>
* TRE MASC.....Team Rip Engineering Mass Air Sensor (and) Controller????
* MAS..........Mass Air Sensor
* AFR..........Air Fuel Ratio
> Spool Up
> Boost
> EBP..........Exhaust back pressure....effects both spool up and boost
* ECU..........Engine (or Electronic??) Control Unit
> DQ...........Dumb question, there are none so don't preface queries with such
>              a statement.- you're either brave or you're not!
* WOT..........Wide Open Throttle
>
><SNIP>

IDC..........Injector Duty Cycle
C/D..........Coefficient of Drag (That's capital C subscript D) Is it
0.32 or 0.29 for our cars?  I can't remember!

XTDC.........X = B or A (Before or After) Top Dead Center -> Piston
positions.
BDC..........Bottom Dead Center ---> see TDC above

EGR..........Exhaust Gas Recirculating Pipe
PCV..........Positive Crankcase Recirculating Valve/Hose
PSI..........Pounds per Square Inch
ETC..........etc...  :)

Later,

JS
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:41:42 -0600
From: "Todd D Shelton" <tds@brightok.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Paxton Supercharger for us NTs???

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BE024E.C9DA8AC0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I think I'll defer to my engine builder on
this Bob in case I've released info that
wasn't supposed to be released yet.
He is monitoring this list and I'm sure
he'll pass on details whenever possible.

- - tds

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
- -
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Bob Forrest <bf@bobforrest.com>
    To: Team3S <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
    Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 1:26 PM
    Subject: Team3S: Paxton Supercharger for us NTs???=20
   =20
   =20
    If there's a web page or other info available about this, I am VERY
    interested.  I'm much more of a blower guy than a turbo guy...
   =20
    What kind of blower?  Electric or belt?  ANY other info???  Tell him
    I'll be one of his first customers...
   =20
    TIA
   =20
    Forrest
   =20


- ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BE024E.C9DA8AC0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I think I'll defer to my engine =
builder=20
on</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>this Bob in =
case I've=20
released info that</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>wasn't supposed to be released yet.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>He is monitoring this list and I'm sure</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>he'll pass on details whenever =
possible.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>- tds</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>----------------------------------------------------------------=
- ----------</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Bob Forrest &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:bf@bobforrest.com">bf@bobforrest.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>To:=20
    </B>Team3S &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com">stealth-3000gt@list.sirius=
.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Tuesday, October 27, 1998 1:26 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Team3S: =
Paxton=20
    Supercharger for us NTs??? <BR><BR></DIV></FONT>If there's a web =
page or=20
    other info available about this, I am VERY<BR>interested.&nbsp; I'm =
much=20
    more of a blower guy than a turbo guy...<BR><BR>What kind of =
blower?&nbsp;=20
    Electric or belt?&nbsp; ANY other info???&nbsp; Tell him<BR>I'll be =
one of=20
    his first=20
customers...<BR><BR>TIA<BR><BR>Forrest<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>=


- ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BE024E.C9DA8AC0--

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 16:19:26 +0100
From: Jim Matthews <matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Abbreviations

> C/D..........Coefficient of Drag (That's capital C subscript D) Is it
> 0.32 or 0.29 for our cars?  I can't remember!

Out of curiosity, what is the difference in C/D between a 2nd
gen VR-4 with active aero off, the same with acrive aero on,
and a 2nd gen Stealth?  Are the aerodynamics of the Stealth
closer to a VR-4 with or without active aero engaged?

- --
Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews

*** 3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:47:22 -0400
From: "Lloyd Wihl" <Lloyd.Wihl@d25tss.cae.ca>
Subject: Team3S: C/D - Drag coefficient

> Out of curiosity, what is the difference in C/D between a 2nd
> gen VR-4 with active aero off, the same with acrive aero on,
> and a 2nd gen Stealth?  Are the aerodynamics of the Stealth
> closer to a VR-4 with or without active aero engaged?

Your 2nd generation Stealth has a Cd of 0.323. The first generation
Stealth has a Cd of 0.33. I believe the published Cd of the VR-4
(which, if I recall, is essentially the same as the Stealth) is without
active aero on. Adding downforce will add induced drag, but I don't
know the amount of downforce (and let's please not reopen the old
theoretical discussion on boundary layer thickness!)

I took my first gen Stealth up to 260 km/h on the weekend, and was
very impressed by the aerodynamic stability and complete lack of
lift, considering that 747's can fly at that speed!

Lloyd Wihl
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 11:06:47 EST
From: LotoBoost@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Abbreviations

Dont forget FPR... fuel pressure regulator

Mike - '94 Stealth tt Best et: 11.6  Best mp: 120.7


In a message dated 10/28/98 2:16:38 AM Eastern Standard Time,
josesini@engin.umich.edu writes:

<< >
 > BC...........Boost Controller: (1) APEXI-AVC-R (single solenoid)
 >                                (2) BLITZ- DS (dual solenoid)
 >                                (3) GREDDY
 >                                (4) HKS
 *                                (5) SARD
 >
 > EGT's........Exhaust Gas Temperatures -  A thermal EGT sensor and guage
 >              for monitoring the same are recommended if you have major
mods.
 >
 * TRE MASC.....Team Rip Engineering Mass Air Sensor (and) Controller????
 * MAS..........Mass Air Sensor
 * AFR..........Air Fuel Ratio
 > Spool Up
 > Boost
 > EBP..........Exhaust back pressure....effects both spool up and boost
 * ECU..........Engine (or Electronic??) Control Unit
 > DQ...........Dumb question, there are none so don't preface queries with
such
 >              a statement.- you're either brave or you're not!
 * WOT..........Wide Open Throttle
 >
 ><SNIP>
 
 IDC..........Injector Duty Cycle
 C/D..........Coefficient of Drag (That's capital C subscript D) Is it
 0.32 or 0.29 for our cars?  I can't remember!
 
 XTDC.........X = B or A (Before or After) Top Dead Center -> Piston
 positions.
 BDC..........Bottom Dead Center ---> see TDC above
 
 EGR..........Exhaust Gas Recirculating Pipe
 PCV..........Positive Crankcase Recirculating Valve/Hose
 PSI..........Pounds per Square Inch
 ETC..........etc...  :) >>
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:18:20 -0800
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject: RE: Boost Controllers (was: Team3S: Identification of the EU turbos)

Howdy folks...

Thought I'd jump in with a third, somewhat subjective perspective. I have the GReddy PRofec BC on my VR4. Now
that I've got it programmed properly, it's a kick in the pants.  :-)   As for holding boost, it appears to
stay at 1.1 bar (where it's programmed) all the way to 7Krpm. I have yet to test the OTB (overtake boost)
button which I programmed at 1.3 bar (concerned about fuel delivery and detonation). FWIW, I have stock
turbos and injectors w/modified intake and exhaust. Now that I have a G-Tech, I'll get some objective numbers
back to you all when the streets are dry. Oh, the gas is 92 octane here in Portland, but I usually throw in a
can or two of "off-road" only booster.

Didn't Darc say Jim (or someone?) has done a comparison of the different controllers? I'd love to see that
document.

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ken Middaugh [SMTP:middaugh@omega.gat.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 3:41 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification of the EU turbos

<snip>

I didn't say that.  Did I say that? :)  I'm not in the "best boost controller" debate (I am
in the BC information gathering mode however).

<more snip>

Ken Middaugh

<last snip>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:16:45 -0600
From: Brad Bedell <bbedell@texas.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Abbreviations

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE025C.1173C880
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hrmm......

What about Burnt Piston, shattered transfer case, Broken transmission,  Spun main or rod bearing :)

Those seem to be getting off the list of the original post.

> Brad
>
> Check out my home page:    http://lonestar.texas.net/~bbedell
> E-Mail: bbedell@texas.net ICQ#  3612682


- -----Original Message-----
From: LotoBoost@aol.com [SMTP:LotoBoost@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 10:07 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Abbreviations


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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:23:24 -0500
From: Bob Fontana <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
Subject: Team3S: Green Beast update

Hi,

I got my motor assembled to the point that I had the turbos "hung" and was
ready to do the coolant and ignition systems.  For the heck of it, I decided to
do a compression check by cranking the motor while it was on the engine stand.
 It's easy -- simply put a 1/2" drive on your crank pulley and spin the crank a
few times.  Your cylinder pressures don't go up to 150 PSI or anything, but
such a test will reveal gross problems.

Naturally, I had one.  An intake valve on #1 cylinder wasn't seating.  I put
the piston at TDC and blew into the spark plug hole.  Hissssssss.  Damn.  I
asked a few people, including Dan the MachineShopMan, whether after the motor
was started up, would the valve possibly seat.  I got varying answers.  One
suggestion was to loosen the cam caps to allow the valves to move freely up and
down.  That requires removing the timing belt.  Okay, I do that.  I move the
valves up and down as best I can with the springs in place.  Seems okay.  I
tighten the cam caps back to spec., reset the auto tensioner and re-do the
timing belt.  Everything in place, I blow into #1 cylinder.  Hisssssss.  DAMN!
 I take the intake manifold, front turbo, front cover, auto tensioner, timing
belt and head off.

Take the head to the machine shop.  Dan the MachineShopMan puts in on his flow
bench and we immediately see that the valve isn't closing.  We shine a
flashlight into the intake port and see a good crack of light between the valve
and seat.  Take the valve out and find a tiny flake of aluminum stuck on the
valve seat.  That little piece of metal was enough to not only hang the valve
open but it actually put a tiny dent on the valve surface.  The remedy was
quick and effective: lightly grind the valve and lap it to be sure everything
seats properly.  Presto, we get a perfect seal an I'm down the road.  Too bad I
wasted a week poking at it before deciding to take the head off!

Nobody knows how a flake of metal got in between the valve and the seat but
it's not hard to make happen.  A piece of advice after this: whenever you have
your plenum and/or intake manifold off, keep the intake ports covered with a
CLEAN cloth at all times.  I hope this saves someone the aggravation that I
had.

- -Bob
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:00:48 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Boost Controllers (was: Team3S: Identification of the EU turbos)

> GReddy PRofec BC on my VR4. Now that I've got it programmed properly, it's a
> kick in the pants.  :-)   As for holding boost, it appears to stay at 1.1 bar
> (where it's programmed) all the way to 7Krpm.

With its FUZZY logic it alters the way to hold boost up to the redline.

> (overtake boost) button which I programmed at 1.3 bar (concerned about fuel
> delivery and detonation).

Wowow, 1.3bars ! I always ran into fuel cut around 1.25bars and even got the
timing retared after 1.2bars. I'd not go to this boost level without having an
EGT probe ! If you do, I can tell you what will go south :(

> FWIW, I have stock turbos and injectors w/modified intake and exhaust.

Can you please specify what your modified intake is, the air filter or more ?

> Now that I have a G-Tech, I'll get some objective numbers back to you all
> when the streets are dry.

Yes, please, let's compare :)

> Didn't Darc say Jim (or someone?) has done a comparison of the different
> controllers? I'd love to see that document.

I sent him a feature comparison table with the Blitz DSBC and the S-AVCR with
weightings to help for his decision.

- -----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)


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------------------------------

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