--
From:
owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
(Team3S Digest)
To:
stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.comSubject:
Team3S Digest V1 #6
Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
Sender:
owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.comErrors-To:
owner-stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.comPrecedence:
bulk
Team3S Digest
Saturday, October 24 1998 Volume 01 :
Number
006
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 23 Oct 1998 17:29:26 -0400
From: josesini <
josesini@engin.umich.edu>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: Clutch (was: ...and AMG S60 race)
Mikael,
I was in the
same position you're now, and here's what I found out about
clutches in the
last 6 months...
RPS - The new Kevlar one "sounds very good on paper"
(I'm quoting some
one here and he knows who he is.) big problem is it never
was released.
I actually had one in my hands and before I got to install it
I received
an EMERGENCY call from RPS telling me that they were recalling the
unit
due to some faulty materials. So I returned it and started looking
for
another solution.... :(
The current RPS clutch I've heard too many
times how it just shattered
during a launch!
Centerforce - I think
this one is a good one but not sure how long it
will last given more than 450
HP. So if that's all you want this is a
good choice. Just have to
be careful with the break-in period.
ClutchMasters - I've heard of only
one 3S customer where they have
failed. I'm not sure if it was stage II
or III. But as far as DSM
people, they have failed or died prematurely
in a few occasions. A
little bit overpriced too. But according to
Henry (I believe) this
clutch has worked great on his 3S car. I think
certain stages (the
lower ones in particular) are the ones that fail.
So in MHO, I think
this is an OK company if you go with the most aggressive
stage.
ACT - I have not heard from anyone with a 3S car that has
installed it,
but as far as the DSMs go, this is the clutch to go with.
They have 2
different disks. A street disk with springs and some sort
of carbon or
organic material that will hold in the 400+ (I can't remember
the exact
number) foot-pounds of torque. This is with a 2600 lb
pressure plate.
They also have their racing disk - solid (no springs) and
with a six -
puck design with copper/ceramic pads. They claimed that it
will hold up
to 584 ft-lb of torque with the 2600 lb pressure
plate. This is what
I'm installing on mine as soon as my
transmission is finished. I'll let
you know sometime in the next two
weeks (hopefully!) how this clutch
turns out to be.
I hope this
helps...
Jose
Mikael Åkesson wrote:
>
>
Hi
>
> My clutch have now started to slip after only 10000
miles.
>
> I planned to buy a new one from Centerforce or
Clutchmaster. Chien (nexus) told me that the clutchmaster stage 3 will hold for
more miles than the Centerforce.
>
><SNIP>
> BUT I
have deceided to go with a custom solution. I will use a cinter (not sure about
the word but it's non organic) disc from a ford (cosworth) that have the same
spline size. I will use the stock preasure plate. The flywheel will be
resurfaced and the preasure plate will be flat grinded.
><SNIP>
> BTW our preasure plates press 1200kg and that is very very much. That
kind of preasure shall hold 700hp with a good disc !!!
>
><SNIP>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 23 Oct 1998 16:47:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis Moore <
stealth@kiva.net>
Subject: Team3S:
Another Clutch Question
Aside from the obvious signs of slippage, like
5mph@6000RPM in first gear,
what other clues will your clutch give you that
it might be going. For a
long time, I've suspected my clutch may be on
its last legs, but I haven't
had the big death clue (like mentioned
above). How do I know if my clutch
is still kosher?
Dennis
Moore
stealth@kiva.netThere are
two kinds of ocean-going vessels in this world:
submarines and targets!
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 23 Oct 1998 15:20:57 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE:
Clutch (sepcifically new RPS)
I have the latest verion of the RPS kevlar
clutch in a box. This new
version is the final version (barring any new
problems) which supposedly
will be available to the general public.
It
looks good in real life. It is also very light which should make
it
easier on the synchros.
The week old version shipped to me is
supposedly one generation beyond the
clutch currently in the RPS 700 RWHP
Supra TT which uses the same diameter
friction plate. According to Rob
Smith, it was tested by an independant
friction materials testing laboratory
on the East coast. According to them
it was "the best they had ever
tested" in terms of grip and wear including
ceramic, semi-metallic, full
metal and more conventional materials. Real
world longevity is, of
course, yet to be proven since it is a brand new
product.
60' times on
the Supra were consistent 1.5 with no top end slip. That's on
a 700 HP
RWD car with wrinkle wall slicks squeezing 100 shot of nitrous out
of the
hole. We'll see how it holds up to the demands of AWD with more than
a
few HP behind it.
Supposedly it is slippable without fading and actually
gains grip with heat.
This characteristic is not unlike the clutches I used
on my race bikes.
Again, we'll see how it works on the street.
I have
destroyed two of the old conventional style RPS clutches and I do
not
consider myself inherently hard on clutches. I think RPS pressure
plates
are great. Their earlier friction plates were fabricated by
ACT. I do not
believe they were ever intended to handle in excess of
500 HP. I bet they
work great and last a long time at more moderate
power levels. The old ones
were definitely well behaved so long as you
didn't smoke them. Even if you
did they would eventually come
back.
This new clutch is very promising, on paper, and according to Rob's
results
after several months of testing.
Now if only I had a running
car in which to test it we could see if it
stands up to the claims
:\
Barry
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
[
mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of josesini
> Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 2:29 PM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Clutch (was: ...and AMG S60 race)
>
>
>
Mikael,
<snip>
> RPS - The new Kevlar one "sounds
very good on paper" (I'm quoting some
> one here and he knows who he is.)
big problem is it never was released.
> I actually had one in my hands and
before I got to install it I received
> an EMERGENCY call from RPS telling
me that they were recalling the unit
> due to some faulty materials.
So I returned it and started looking for
> another solution.... :(
>
The current RPS clutch I've heard too many times how it just shattered
>
during a launch!
<snip>
>
> I hope this
helps...
>
> Jose
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 23 Oct 1998 15:31:47 -0700
From:
wce@bc.sympatico.caSubject: Re:
Team3S: Engine Cooling
Jeffrey Young wrote:
> Since I have
replaced my fog lights with some PIAA 1400, I now have space in
> the fog
light openings to see if I can route some air into the engine
>
compartment. This will be in conjunction with the Bozz Speed
bonnet
> scoops, that I have already installed.
>
Good
deal...let us know how this goes, and if you notice a drop in engine
compartment
temperature. Are you just leaving the fog lamp openings as is, or
do you plan on routing
the air??
Darc
92 Stealth TT
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 23 Oct 1998 16:52:52 -0600
From: "Jeffrey Young" <
jefyoung@ix.netcom.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Engine Cooling
I am "planning" on using a small amount of
ducting to deflect the air upward
into the compartment. We'll see how
well it works. As it is now, I'm sure
the majority of the additional
air flow is deflected back down towards the
ground, considering the proximity
of the openings.
I have noticed a fair amount of heat radiating out from
the bonnet scoops
after a hard run. Assuming that the design of the
scoops allows for
additional heat to be drawn out by the airflow over the top
of the scoops,
the introduction of more air (from the fog openings) should
increase this
venting process.
Jeffrey
92 RT/Turbo
www.omega-sw.com/stealth>
>Good
deal...let us know how this goes, and if you notice a drop in
engine
compartment
>temperature. Are you just leaving the fog lamp
openings as is, or do you
plan on routing
>the
air??
>
>Darc
>
>92 Stealth TT
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFor
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 23 Oct 1998 15:48:30 -0700
From: Dave Allison <
dave@languys.com>
Subject: Team3S:
Dynoing the AWD 3000GT/Stealth
Many of you have been just as frustrated
as I when it comes to adding
upgrades to our cars and having to judge the
performance by "seat of the
pants" feedback. Unless you live in Switzerland
where they seem to have
more AWD dyno's than they do 7-11's in the States
(hiya Roger!), you're
kinda S.O.L.
The G-Tech Pro is a nice unit and
it gives you a ballpark figure of
horsepower, but it does not produce a dyno
chart of torque and horsepower.
So I found myself looking for some way to
peek behind the curtain and get
an idea of what was happening to the
performance of my engine.
I think I found it.
Some of you may
raise an eyebrow, but trust me, it works. Besides, if
you've got nothing...
then something is better than nothing! :) I ran
across this item while doing
keyword searches on the Internet. It's called
the, "Home Dyno". I know...
stupid name. But it really works. What a
standard chassis dynamometer is is
basically a device that applies a
specified load to the engine via drums
beneath the wheels and a inductive
pickup which attatches to the spark plug
wire to measure the work being
performed by the engine under these loaded
conditions.
Home Dyno substitutes the weight of your car for the drums
under you
wheels. It factors in the work required to move the weight of your
car,
drive axle ratio, test gear ratio, tire aspect, tire diameter,
drag
coefficient, drivetrain loss, frontal area, and even the
barometric
pressure, temperature, and relative humidity for those who love to
brag
about their "corrected times". :)
The way it works is you connect
the supplied inductive pickup to a spark
plug wire and run the other end of
the wire into the cabin where the cable
terminates in a 1/8" jack. This end
you plug into either a microcassete
recorder, minidisc recorder, or (with an
adapter) a camcorder. I'd
recommend the camcorder or minidisc recorder, since
there are no issies
with playback vs. recording speed. Then you find yourself
a nice stretch of
road and ease the car into 2nd gear, creeping along with no
gas applied.
Hit record and hit the gas. Take the car up to redline and
perhaps even the
rev limiter. Slow down and hit stop. Connect the recorder to
the line in on
your PC's soundcard and record it as a WAV file. once the run
is recorded
as a WAV file, it is up to Home Dyno to analyze the signal. With
a few
mods, HKS exhaust & HKS Super Power Flo intake, I got
this:
http://www.languys.com/dave/336hp.jpgNot
bad, eh? Actually it's within 1HP of what HKS predicts with these two
items
fitted to the car. Here's the specs I plugged in during the analysis
portion.
The drivetrain loss is taken from Roger Gerl's observations during
actual AWD
dynoing in Europe. The rest of the numbers are from the
Mitsubishi service
manuals.
http://www.languys.com/dave/336chart.jpgI
think it's a great way to get more definitive feedback on what
each
performance mod does to the power of the car. Makes it feel a bit better
to
drop a $1000 for an item if you can see the results on paper. If anyone
has
any questions, feel free to send me some private mail and I'll try my
best
to answer them all.
Seeyaz!
Dave Allison
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 23 Oct 1998 16:36:40 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Dynoing the AWD 3000GT/Stealth
Excellent information Dave.
I saw
this setup a while back. There's no reason it shouldn't be
accurate
given correct inputs as you appear to have done. Cool
idea. One of those
"Gee, I shoulda...".
Anyway, another approach
is to record the ignition on any high quality
recording device. A
digital or conventional camcorder ideally with PCM
sound quality works great
too. That way you avoid having to lug a PC around
in your car.
Same steps as you describe except record to tape and playback
the tape to the
PC to create the WAV file.
Here's the link:
http://www.charm.net/~mchaney/homedyno/dynokit.htmMore
interesting home brew dyno projects are out there too. Here's one
more:
http://crash.ihug.co.nz/~geoff/dyno.htmThere's
a guy in England who given your specifications will design rollers
and plans
for your application. You'd then get the drums built
professionally and
go from there. For $1000-2000 plus some software and
computer equipment
you could have your very own inertia dyno.
Someone else was trying out a
driveshaft dyno. Same concept really except
it measures the rotation of
the driveshaft. Any news on that
experiment?
Regards,
Barry
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 23 Oct 1998 20:00:11 -0400
From: "Fein, Edward" <
fein@strategy.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Re: Clutch (was: ...and AMG S60 race)
>ClutchMasters - I've
heard of only one 3S customer where they have
>failed. I'm not sure
if it was stage II or III. But as far as DSM
>people, they have
failed or died prematurely in a few occasions. A
>little bit
overpriced too. But according to Henry (I believe) this
>clutch has
worked great on his 3S car. I think certain stages (the
>lower ones
in particular) are the ones that fail. So in MHO, I think
>this is
an OK company if you go with the most aggressive stage.
I had a Stage II
(full-face Kevlar) slip, glaze, and die on me last spring,
with about 6000
miles on it. It happened at the strip, on an abominably hot
day (100+
degrees) and I made a few passes without enough cool-down
time,
apparently
I had bought the clutch from, and had it installed by
Extreme Motorsports
the previous August. And get this: they and ClutchMasters
were nice enough
to upgrade me to the Stage III Kevlar TZ clutch for
FREE!
So if you go ClutchMasters, go with the Stage III Kevlar TZ at a
minimum,
and I strongly reccomend Extreme Motorsports as a
source...
-Ed
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 23 Oct 1998 20:07:36 -0400
From: "Fein, Edward" <
fein@strategy.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Under-Hood Temps (Was: Engine rebuild update)
>I haven't
solved the problem, but have found a (minor) help re:
>under-hood
temps. Remove the rubber weatherstrip that runs along the
>top of
the firewall, mating with the back of the hood. This allows
air
>that enters from under the engine to pass by the engine and exit
over
>the windshield.
On my '94, the rubber strip is in three
sections. I removed the two end
sections, and left the middle to keep the hot
air from getting into the air
intake for the passenger compartment. Combined
with gutting my pre-cats, I
noticed a considerable drop in underhood temps.
Of the two mods, though, I
think gutting the precats had more to do with it,
though.
-Ed
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 23 Oct 1998 19:29:19 -0700
From:
wce@bc.sympatico.caSubject: Re:
Team3S: Re: VR4 check list
-
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Ron-a-roid
wrote:
>
>
> OK guys, I'm
making the plunge and need the fine points
to
> look for. Found a 95 VR4 and I'm going
to look at Thursday
> or so to... most
likely buy it. The 93SL I have is great
but
> I guess I want _REALLY_ great. I also
have never cared for
> FWD. Besides
crunches, bends, shock leaks, tire wear,
etc,
> where are the red flag zones on a
VR4? Anxious and
>
excited,Ron-a-roid
>
> Ron...did you
or didn't you...let us know for crying out
>
loud!
>
> Darc
>
-
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Content-Type: text/html;
charset=us-ascii
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<HTML>
<BODY
BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
<P>Ron-a-roid
wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT:
5px"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>OK
guys, I'm making
the plunge and need the fine points to look for. Found
a 95 VR4 and I'm going
to look at Thursday or so to... most likely buy
it. The 93SL I have is great
but I guess I want _REALLY_ great. I also
have never cared for FWD. Besides
crunches, bends, shock leaks, tire wear,
etc, where are the red flag zones on
a VR4?</FONT></FONT> <FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT
SIZE=-1>Anxious
and excited,</FONT></FONT><FONT
COLOR="#000000"><FONT
SIZE=-1>Ron-a-roid</FONT></FONT><FONT
COLOR="#000000"><FONT
SIZE=-1></FONT></FONT>
<P><FONT
COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>Ron...did you or didn't you...let
us
know for crying out loud!</FONT></FONT><FONT
COLOR="#000000"><FONT
SIZE=-1></FONT></FONT>
<P><FONT
COLOR="#000000"><FONT
SIZE=-1>Darc</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>
-
--------------3816ECFDD1459E2454516334--
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 23 Oct 1998 19:34:57 -0700
From:
wce@bc.sympatico.caSubject: Team3S:
rebuilds
Roger and thread followers
What gives with all the
broken rings?? Is this the result of detonation
literally blowing them
apart/splitting them? Maybe all owner's of TT's
with after market BC's
should consider a water/alchol injection system
until we can solve thi?. Does
the TRE MASC improve/solve this problem in
any way Barry?? How about the
Venom after market computer upgrade,
anyone?? It seems, as one posting noted,
that this is the year of
rebuilds...which is for certain, one way of
explaining it, but not
actually coming up with the real solution to the
problem. I for one,
don't have the cash in hand for such
undertakings....a BC is a major
event for me at the moment, not a rebuild. A
rebuild for me, will be
like Bob's.. sitting in the garage for some time
while "I" work on it.
Now that's not entirely a bad idea, particularly
with the help line I
have here...in fact, it actually sounds enjoyable were
there some more
change in my jeans. But, I'd just like to have a little
longer to enjoy
driving it.
Darc
92 Stealth
TT
Ideas???
The best available water injection
unit??
Darc
92 Stealth TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 23 Oct 1998 21:49:38 -0500
From: Brad Bedell <
bbedell@texas.net>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine rebuild update
- ------
=_NextPart_000_01BDFECF.08CA4140
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charset="us-ascii"
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I have head
knock. When the AFC fuse quit I heard nothing but detonation.
Looking back on it, I am happy I chose the JE pistons. With the
helmet on, my hearing is limited. (for hearing knock)
With stock pistons,
I figure I would have been back into the engine.
> Brad
>
> Check out my home page:
http://lonestar.texas.net/~bbedell>
E-Mail:
bbedell@texas.net ICQ#
3612682
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AAAAAAAeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAAMADTT9NwAAKBw=
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For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 23 Oct 1998 20:24:45 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
rebuilds
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
[
mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of
>
wce@bc.sympatico.ca> Sent: Friday,
October 23, 1998 7:35 PM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: rebuilds
>
>
> Roger and thread
followers
>
> What gives with all the broken rings?? Is this the
result of detonation
> literally blowing them apart/splitting
them?
That is my contention.
> Maybe all owner's of TT's
with after market BC's should consider a
> water/alchol injection system
until we can solve thi?.
That would likely help. Either that or
using proper fuel.
> Does the TRE MASC improve/solve this problem in
any way Barry??
The MASC is a fuel computer and actually would exacerbate
the issue since by
leaning out the mixture and making more horsepower you may
promote
detonation.
> How about the Venom after market computer
upgrade,
> anyone?? It seems, as one posting noted, that this is the year
of
> rebuilds...which is for certain, one way of explaining it, but
not
> actually coming up with the real solution to the problem. I
for one,
> don't have the cash in hand for such undertakings....a BC is a
major
> event for me at the moment, not a rebuild. A rebuild for me, will
be
> like Bob's.. sitting in the garage for some time while "I" work
on it.
> Now that's not entirely a bad idea, particularly with the help
line I
> have here...in fact, it actually sounds enjoyable were there some
more
> change in my jeans. But, I'd just like to have a little
longer to enjoy
> driving it.
Detonation is minimized to a point by
retarding timing at the expense of
horsepower. Ideally you want to put
timing back in at higher RPMs. In
order to do so you have to ensure
that detonation will not be taking place.
You either turn down the boost or
use better fuel. Water/alcohol injection
will also help to a
point.
I don't see how an aftermakret computer is going to eliminate
detonation
except by allowing you to tune around it. Tuning around
detonation involves
detuning though, counter to making more horsepower in the
first place.
Bottom line, use fuel (which may include injecting water
and/or alcohol) to
match cylinder pressures. That being the case the
ECU will leave timing in
thus allowing you to use the additional
power.
> Ideas???
> The best available water injection
unit??
I know of at least three. One is manufactured by
Spearco. It is roughly
$155 complete. The components are not the
highest quality and it comes with
only 3 jets. Bowling Green Customs
(thanks to Bob F. for this lead) is
primarily a GN shop. They make a
very nice kit for around $265. It has a
boost referenced switch for the
pump, 5 nozzles, aluminium can with site
handle and all plumbing.
The
third company, British-based ERL, makes a few systems ranging in price
from
$470 to $930. Their best uses an actual 3D FI computer to
control
injection. Very cool. Makes total sense, gives the tuner
complete control,
costs you about $1000 for the kit. The kits are
available in the US around
the prices
listed.
Regards,
Barry
> Darc
>
> 92
Stealth TT
>
> Darc
>
> 92 Stealth
TT
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm>
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 23 Oct 1998 21:59:46 -0700
From:
wce@bc.sympatico.caSubject: Re:
Team3S: rebuilds
Barry;
The quality and advice within your posts,
is impeccable. That's not to take anything
away from the absolute first class
posts I am continually overwhelmed with here. Thanks
all of you, but Barry of
late, for sharing those who shared with you. As an old book
"The Education of
Little Tree" indicated...when you find something good, share it ,
'cause
there ain't no way o' telling where it's ultimate good will go...but it'll run
to
good, that's fer sure.
I still can't get over the first rate bunch
of guys here...and if anyone accuses me of
patronizing, I may piss on yer leg
and tell ya it's raining.
Darc
You all know what I
drive.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Fri, 23 Oct 1998 22:13:21 -0700
From:
wce@bc.sympatico.caSubject: Team3S:
Abbreviations
Can someone take a minute and run by the abbreviations we
are using for
standard fare here? Or maybe we can start a group contribution
list!! I
am starting to think my brains have fallen out on the
floor, and I have
commenced a sweep and search operation for them.
Seriously, a posting on
pertinent abbreviations for 3S topics would likely be
appreciated by
more than myself I am sure.....The ole "what
the
hell....uhhh...mmm...oh yeah I get it now" (sometimes), just
uses up
too much of my bio-hard-drive. ....and then there's all that Net
'brev
talk that makes you wonder if you were born
yesterday!
Darc
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 24 Oct 1998 01:42:04 -0400
From: "Ron-a-roid" <
rtetetet@email.msn.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Re: VR4 check list
This is a multi-part message in MIME
format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0425_01BDFEEF.80ACF7A0
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text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
quoted-printable
Been out of town ... going to see it Saturday morning
... yeah, I think =
so ...
-----Original
Message-----
From:
wce@bc.sympatico.ca <
wce@bc.sympatico.ca>
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
<
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Friday, October 23, 1998 10:34 PM
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Re: VR4 check list
=20
=20
=20
Ron-a-roid
wrote:=20
=20
OK
guys, I'm making the plunge and need the fine points to =
look for. Found a
95 VR4 and I'm going to look at Thursday or so to... =
most likely buy it.
The 93SL I have is great but I guess I want _REALLY_ =
great. I also have
never cared for FWD. Besides crunches, bends, shock =
leaks, tire wear, etc,
where are the red flag zones on a VR4? Anxious =
and
excited,Ron-a-roid=20
Ron...did you or didn't you...let us know for crying out
=
loud!=20
Darc
=20
-
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text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3
HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META
content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1
=
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"'
name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY
bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D""
size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Been =
out of town ...=20
going to
see it Saturday morning ... yeah, I think so
=
...</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT:
=
5px">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial
size=3D2><B>-----Original
=
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
</B><A
href=3D"mailto:wce@bc.sympatico.ca">
wce@bc.sympatico.ca</A>
=
<<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:wce@bc.sympatico.ca">
wce@bc.sympatico.ca</A>><BR><B>To:=
=20
</B><A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com">
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius=.com</A>=20
<<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com">
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius=.com</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
</B>Friday, October 23, 1998 10:34 PM<BR><B>Subject:
</B>Re: Team3S: =
Re: VR4=20
check
list<BR><BR></DIV></FONT> =20
<P>Ron-a-roid wrote:=20
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE =3D
CITE> =20
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
PADDING-LEFT:
5px"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D-1>OK guys, I'm making the =
plunge and
need=20
the fine points to look for. Found a 95 VR4 and I'm going to =
look
at=20
Thursday or so to... most likely buy it. The 93SL I have is
=
great=20
but I guess I want _REALLY_ great. I also have never cared =
for
FWD.=20
Besides crunches, bends, shock leaks, tire wear, etc, where =
are
the=20
red
flag zones on a
VR4?</FONT></FONT> <FONT=20
color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D-1>Anxious and
=
excited,</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000000><FONT
=
size=3D-1>Ron-a-roid</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000000><FONT
size=3D-1></FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D-1>Ron...did you or
=
didn't=20
you...let us know for crying out
loud!</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000000><FONT
size=3D-1></FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT=20
size=3D-1>Darc</FONT></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> =20
</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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------=_NextPart_000_0425_01BDFEEF.80ACF7A0--
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 24 Oct 1998 09:12:56 +0100
From: Jim Matthews <
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine rebuild update
Roger Gerl
wrote:
>
> The Mitsu experts say that the car must have had very
heavy bad knock. IMHO, due
> to the leaking sunroof on high speeds I never
heard anything as I drove around
> 290km/h on the German Autobahns. But
I'm sure I killed it on such high power,
> long run, high temp
circumstances :(
Barry E. King wrote:
>
> The stock ECU
combats knock in two ways When knock is first detected the
> ECU
retards timing. Usually this is enough. When retarding the
timing
> doesn't cut it the next step is to signal the stock boost
solenoid to open
> the wastegates. On a car equipped with an
aftermarket electronic boost
> controller this feature of course has no
effect.
As we all know, those with the Blitz controller are able
to
sustain higher boost at the upper RPMs than those of us with
other
controllers, such as my AVC-R, which falls to about
.9 bar at 6500
RPM). Is it possible that the Blitz controller
is actually overdriving
the stock injectors to maintain such
boost levels, resulting in a lean
condition and leading to
some of the problems Roger is seeing on his
engine? Or is
it more likely that what he is seeing is from his
pre-Blitz
over-boosting?
The bottom line: can the stock injectors flow
enough fuel for
extended durations at 1.0 bar at near redline?
The
other question: if this is the case, how is the AVC-R
able to prevent this
and keep boost lower at these RPMs?
-Jim
- --
Matthews -
Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de
(64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews***
3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.htmlJet
Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active
Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0
bar @ 70/84% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged
Wipers
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix
brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS
(so far): 166mph <- KNOCKING?!
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @
113.9 mph
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 24 Oct 1998 14:18:37 +0100
From: "R.G." <
robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject:
Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine rebuild update
> Is it possible that the
Blitz controller
> is actually overdriving the stock injectors to maintain
such
> boost levels, resulting in a lean condition and leading to
>
some of the problems Roger is seeing on his engine?
The BC can only
control the boost via the wastegates and nothing else.
With the max
sustained boost set to 1.05bars I had no problem to keep the EGTs
on a normal
level during the dyno sessions. But during the runs it was the first
time I
saw this white oil-steam comming out the BOV ! This tells me that the car
was
weak before the BC and got even weaker as I overboosted easily to 1.34
bars
with running into fuel cut then. I had no fuel cut up to 1.26bars but I
felt
some hesitation (timing retarded). Interestingly, we leaned it out a
little with
the help of the AFC and the hesitation went away. The car runned
like hell. But
the dyno session then told me the truth and limiting to
1.05bars helped. But the
car got weaker and weaker !
> Or is it
more likely that what he is seeing is from his pre-Blitz
>
over-boosting?
I tell this "early Blitz overboosting".... I just didn't
use the limiter. Call
this ignorance and power-adrenaline-kick. This was
before the AFC as I installed
it because I wanted to get rid of the problems
at high boost. Well, I think it
was too late as the oil spray was already
there. Also I would not be able to
increase fuel because fuel cut kicked in
with only +5% more fuel. This would
only make sense with using bigger
injectors.
> The bottom line: can the stock injectors flow enough fuel
for
> extended durations at 1.0 bar at near redline?
Yes, they can.
If fuel is not miss-used to cool the chambers then they provide
enough on
their spray.
> The other question: if this is the case, how is the
AVC-R
> able to prevent this and keep boost lower at these
RPMs?
Well, just a theory :
The AVC-R reads the injectors duty
cycle as well as boost (also rpms ??). This
with its learning feature are the
advantages of it. Maybe it "sees" that on high
boost the injectors start to
go close to the 100% and therefore reduces boost
(and adjusts the internal
stored curve). This could explain the behaivour. Other
ideas ??
-
-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo
(Animale Rosso)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 24 Oct 1998 12:42:52 EDT
From:
LotoBoost@aol.comSubject: Re: Team3S:
RE: boost lag, engine rebuild update
In a message dated 98-10-24 04:11:06
EDT, you write:
<< As we all know, those with the Blitz controller
are able to
sustain higher boost at the upper RPMs than those of us
with
other controllers, such as my AVC-R, which falls to
about
.9 bar at 6500 RPM). Is it possible that the Blitz
controller
is actually overdriving the stock injectors to maintain
such
boost levels, resulting in a lean condition and leading
to
some of the problems Roger is seeing on his engine? Or
is
it more likely that what he is seeing is from his
pre-Blitz
over-boosting?>>
In theory, the Blitz boost
controller shouldn't hold any more boost through
redline than any other
controller because they all do the same thing.. control
the wastegate.
I haven't heard the story's from people who own Blitz
controllers running
more boost, but if they are holding more boost through
redline vs. other
controllers than maybe it has more to do with that persons
exhuast
set-up. With full cats and stock downpipe my car held more
boost
through redline than it did with the main cat gutted and
downpipe.
<<The bottom line: can the stock injectors
flow enough fuel for
extended durations at 1.0 bar at near
redline??>>
With 15G's, I've run 1.0bar during extended HW runs
(70mph to 150mph). It
gets things on the lean side, but shouldn't hurt
anything. Stock turbos at
1.0bar should be a little easier on the fuel
I'd think. If you shift to 5th
gear, however, I'd keep a close eye on
the EGT's.
Mike Mahaffey - '94 Stealth tt Best et: 11.6 Best
mph: 120.7
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 24 Oct 1998 09:51:28 -0700
From:
wce@bc.sympatico.caSubject: Re:
Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine rebuild update
R.G. wrote:
> >
Is it possible that the Blitz controller
> > is actually overdriving
the stock injectors to maintain such
> > boost levels, resulting in a
lean condition and leading to
> > some of the problems Roger is seeing
on his engine?
>
> The BC can only control the boost via the
wastegates and nothing else.
Agreed. But by doing this, (controlling from
the bottom end) is it not inadventantly
controlling the injector duty as
well, and hence overdriving them as Jim suggests? Open
the flood gates, and
the stream is hard pressed to fill the exiting
resevoir.
<snip>
> > The bottom line: can the stock injectors flow
enough fuel for
> > extended durations at 1.0 bar at near
redline?
>
> Yes, they can. If fuel is not miss-used to cool the
chambers then they provide
> enough on their spray.
So wouldn't the
old solution, recently revived here, be of an advantage...ie:
water
injection?? Has anyone heard if this application has long term side
effects with use??
>
>
> > The other question: if this
is the case, how is the AVC-R
> > able to prevent this and keep boost
lower at these RPMs?
>
> Well, just a theory : (Yep, so is
relativity)
>
> The AVC-R reads the injectors duty cycle as well as
boost (also rpms ??). This
> with its learning feature are the advantages
of it. Maybe it "sees" that on high
> boost the injectors start to go
close to the 100% and therefore reduces boost
> (and adjusts the internal
stored curve). This could explain the behaivour. Other
> ideas
??
This sounds like the most plausible explanation Roger...but as you
know, I haven't even
put my BC in the car yet...it is somewhere in transit to
here. But, I hope to be able to
advise a bit on Apexi as time goes on, so
that along with Jim and Errin we will have an
Apexi forum for comparison with
all you Blitz guys. Given your advice and Chens' (along
with others who own
it) I thought Blitz was more of a race application BC with all of
it's
features when I was comparitive shopping, and Apexi was an install and
drive
(street) application. It probably wouldn't hurt to install a
water/alcohal injection
system with either given the recent thread. My
opinion only.
Darc (Darcy Gunnlaugson)
Victoria,
B.C. 92 Stealth TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 24 Oct 1998 10:14:57 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
RE: boost lag, engine rebuild update
> -----Original
Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
[
mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of Jim Matthews
> Sent: Saturday, October 24, 1998 1:13 AM
>
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine rebuild
update
<snip>
> As we all know, those with the Blitz
controller are able to
> sustain higher boost at the upper RPMs than those
of us with
> other controllers, such as my AVC-R, which falls to
about
> .9 bar at 6500 RPM).
Almost everyone. I spoke with
one person that observed the same behavior
that anyone else with 9Bs
experiences -- boost drop-off approaching redline.
I should have asked for
their settings so that they could be compared with
those which allow this
higher RPM boost that noone else seems to enjoy ;)
> Is it
possible that the Blitz controller is actually overdriving
> the stock
injectors to maintain such boost levels, resulting in a
> lean condition
and leading to some of the problems Roger is seeing
> on his engine?
Or is it more likely that what he is seeing is from
> his pre-Blitz
over-boosting?
The injector behavior is comlpetely determined by the ECU
which does not
read boost. Factors that determine fuel flow (and
therefore IDC) are intake
air temperature, water temperature, airflow,
barometric pressure, timing,
RPM and entropy introduced by Mitsu engineers
(that last one is supposed to
be a joke btw).
I would not place fault
with the DSBC itself -- I believe it to be a fine
boost
controller.
> The bottom line: can the stock injectors flow enough
fuel for
> extended durations at 1.0 bar at near redline?
All other
factors being equal, yes. Some experts suggest not running pintel
style
injectors beyond 80% IDC. This is due to the stress placed on
the
electromagnetic valve. Maybe it gets too hot. In any case it
is claimed
that an injector operating beyond 80% is prone to becoming stuck
open. I
suspect that they mean "80% for extended periods of
time". I personally
don't get concerned until I see a number well above
90%. Anyone seeing much
above that should be concerned.
This is
the beginning of yet another thread ;)
IDC is only one indicator of fuel
delivery. One thing that isn't discussed
much is fuel pressure.
Injectors require around 35-40 PSI to operate. When
pulling vaccuum at
idle or during light right-footed cruising, fuel pressure
can be a little
lower than what the injectors require since the pressure
differential is
actually pulling fuel through. Positive manifold pressure
(when under
boost) pushes against the fuel being delivered by the injectors.
The net
effect is reduced fuel pressure at the injector. So, to maintain the
35-40
PSI fuel pressure at the injector you require 1 PSI additional fuel
pressure
to compensate for each additional PSI in boost.
At 15 PSI you need up to
55 PSI at the injectors. Here's where it starts to
get
interesting. The stock fuel pump is rated at 180 lph @ 43 PSI
assuming
stock wiring (ie roughly 12v to the pump). At 55 PSI the pump
can deliver
only 140 lph.
So, assuming 15 PSI and a relatively stock
VR4 making roughly 340 HP, you
need 128 lph from the pump. The stock
pump should be up to the task but
just barely.
A few other factors
come into play. If you measure the voltage available at
the fuel pump
it won't be 12v. It will likely be between 10v and 12v.
Below 12v means
a less efficient pump. This is why some people wire battery
power
directly to the fuel pump through a relay operated by the FPR. Doing
so
you'll get very close to 14v at the pump and increased fuel
delivery
capacity.
15Gs and larger injectors introduce more
complications. I suppose fuel
delivery is really another thread.
If anyone is interested just post and we
can get it going.
>
The other question: if this is the case, how is the AVC-R
> able to
prevent this and keep boost lower at these RPMs?
The AVC-R does not
control the injectors. It merely displays the IDC as
indicated by the
ECU output. The duty cycle setting on the AVC-R is the
wastegate
actuator duty cycle.
>
-Jim
<snip>
Regards,
Barry
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 24 Oct 1998 10:24:10 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
RE: boost lag, engine rebuild update
> -----Original
Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
[
mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of R.G.
> Sent: Saturday, October 24, 1998 6:19 AM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine rebuild
update
<snipped>
> Well, just a theory :
>
>
The AVC-R reads the injectors duty cycle as well as boost (also
> rpms
??). This with its learning feature are the advantages of it.
> Maybe
it "sees" that on high boost the injectors start to go close
> to
the 100% and therefore reduces boost (and adjusts the internal
>
stored curve). This could explain the behaivour. Other ideas ??
I
do not believe this to be the case. I recently installed the TRE MASC
and
spent about a week intimately tuning the car. During the latter
stages of
tuning I used good fuel and was limiting boost with the AVC-R at 20
PSI. I
was able to achieve 20 PSI regardless of IDC. At some
points I hit 94% IDC
and still reached 20 PSI. When the engine is
really rich higher boost
levels may not be achieved but that has more to do
with inefficient
combustion than anything else. Based on my
observations, I do not believe
the AVC-R reduces boost based on
IDC.
If it does I'd certainly like to know when it decides to knock back
boost.
That would be a factor in choosing injector size.
BTW, now that
I have the MASC I have the ability to set EGT and boost
alarms. The
AVC-R was set to 1.35 BAR (19.6 PSI). The overboost alarm was
typically
set to 20 PSI. It did not go off even once at that setting.
Setting it
to 19 PSI made tripped it every time. In other words, the AVC-R
was
always able to achieve desired boost without overboosting by even
0.4
PSI. Not bad. I wouldn't expect any controller to be quite
that accurate.
Regards,
Barry
>
-----------------------
> Roger Gerl, Switzerland
> 93'3000GT
TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFor
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 24 Oct 1998 10:36:52 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
RE: boost lag, engine rebuild update
> -----Original
Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
[
mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of
>
wce@bc.sympatico.ca> Sent:
Saturday, October 24, 1998 9:51 AM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine rebuild
update
<snipped>
> So wouldn't the old solution, recently
revived here, be of an
> advantage...ie: water injection?? Has anyone
heard if this
> application has long term side effects with
use??
Alcohol is a rather corrosive substance as is water. The
potential exists
for oxidation of metal parts, especially aluminium.
However, if you keep
the amount of water/alcohol injected within reasonable
limits you should not
experience any long term side-effects since the alcohol
will be burned and
the water will be spewed out as vapor. A properly
designed exhaust system
will keep exhaust temperatures high enough throughout
the entire system to
keep condensation of vapors (present anyway as a
byproduct of combustion) to
a minimum.
This is actually fuel against
the "bigger is better" myth when it comes to
fiorced induction exhaust
systems which some people pursue with religous
zealousy. You can't
consider solely the diameter of tubing of an exhaust
system. The length
gases must travel msut also be considered. Hehe. Here
we go on
another thread...
<snipped>
> Given your advice and
Chens' (along with others who own it) I thought
> Blitz was more of a race
application BC with all of it's features when
> I was comparitive
shopping, and Apexi was an install and drive
> (street)
application.
I don't know that the AVC-R is any more or less of a race
application than
any other controller. The AVC-R lacks a scramble
setting, but realisticaly
that is more of a street feature than a race
feature. It has two boost
settings which is more or less standard
fair. One for "normal" putting
around and one for hauling.
Personally I find myself leaving it at the
highest setting all the time since
you really control the amount of boost
with your right foot anyway. If
your foot is pressing the accelerator
against the floorboard, why not have
full boost available? ;)
For pure racing applications the Apex'i
AVC-D is probably the right choice.
I doubt it would make a practical street
boost controller.
<snipped>
> Darc (Darcy
Gunnlaugson)
Regards,
Barry
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 24 Oct 1998 19:09:21 +0100
From: Jim Matthews <
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
Subject:
Team3S: Smoke from pipes
Today Mike and I had a little European
micro-gathering (only
two cars!). On the way home, he noticed a puff of
black smoke
from both of my stock exhaust pipes when I downshifted
and
stomped on the gas. His note and my reply are below.
I'd
appreciate any insight any of you might have.
Thanx!
-Jim
Jim Matthews wrote:
>
> Mike Chapleski
wrote:
> >
> > Just wanted to let you
know I saw some smoke coming out of your
> > exhaust. When we
were on 455 coming up the hill before getting on 66 I
> > think you
stomped on it. I say this because there was puff of smoke
> >
that came out of both sides of the exhaust, then you were off. I
>
> thought uh oh, oil, but when I drove through it, it smelled like
gas.
> > Sort of like you were running real rich. I could smell
it for a while,
> > till we got on 66 then it went away. I guess
all that traffic driving
> > allowed some gas to build up in the system
and punching it blew it out.
> > I was thinking about it and I am not
sure why this would happen. I am
> > thinking the smaller
spark plug gap might have something to do with it.
> > (what did you
say they were gapped at? .032?). Don't think it is a
> > problem,
just wanted to let you know.
>
> You THINK I stomped on it?!
Now THAT's humbling! :-)
>
> Interesting. Thanx for
pointing it out, as this is exactly the
> sort of thing I'd never be able
to see and that other friends
> wouldn't think to bring up if they saw
it. Actually, I think
> this may be normal. On my way down to
Switzerland to see
> Roger, I came up behind a Porche 911 Turbo.
When the traffic
> in front cleared, the guy hammered the throttle and
puffs of
> black smoke came out of each pipe (no more than a puff).
Is
> this what you saw, or was there more? I asked Roger about
it
> when I got there and he said that this is normal with turbo
>
cars. Maybe Maximum Boost will have something to say about
>
this. All I can imagine is that the fuel being injected is
> too
much before the turbos spool up and provide enough air,
> especially when
at wide open throttle (see below). I think
> my gap is around .035,
at least when the tuneup was done
> 20k miles ago.
>
> One
thing I have noticed lately though is that the car seems
> to have
stronger acceleration when I'm just under wide open
> throttle vs. the
pedal all the way to the floor. My theory
> is that WOT causes the
car to dump fuel in as fast as possible,
> causing an over-rich condition,
whereas just inder WOT leans
> the mixture out properly. The fact
that you smelled gas until
> we hit 66 would seem to support this theory,
as I do remember
> flooring it. Again, more gauges and a dyno are in
order here!!
>
> It's also interesting that you saw the smoke out
of BOTH tail
> pipes, as I didn't think that passenger-side pipe
actually
> flowed much exhaust. Was it noticably more from the
driver-
> side pipe?
>
> At any rate, I'm relieved that you
didn't smell oil, as that's
> the last thing I need to worry about right
now! BTW, it was
> a lot of fun driving along with two nearly
identical cars of
> such rarity in this area! Just imagine 50+ on
the way to the
> Mitsubishi factory! Maybe I'll give that guy from
the German
> GTO club a call in case he lost my number...
- --
Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de
(64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews***
3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.htmlJet
Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active
Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0
bar @ 70/84% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged
Wipers
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix
brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS
(so far): 166mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9
mph
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 24 Oct 1998 19:24:09 +0100
From: Jim Matthews <
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine rebuild update
Barry E. King
wrote:
>
> Roger Gerl wrote:
> >
> > > Jim
Matthews wrote:
> > >
> > > The other question: if this
is the case, how is the AVC-R
> > > able to prevent this and keep
boost lower at these RPMs?
> >
> > Well, just a theory
:
> >
> > The AVC-R reads the injectors duty cycle as well as
boost (also
> > rpms ??). This with its learning feature are the
advantages of it.
> > Maybe it "sees" that on high boost the
injectors start to go close
> > to the 100% and therefore reduces
boost (and adjusts the internal
> > stored curve). This could explain
the behaivour. Other ideas ??
>
> I do not believe this to be
the case. I recently installed the TRE MASC and
> spent about a week
intimately tuning the car. During the latter stages of
> tuning I
used good fuel and was limiting boost with the AVC-R at 20 PSI. I
>
was able to achieve 20 PSI regardless of IDC. At some points I hit 94%
IDC
> and still reached 20 PSI. When the engine is really rich
higher boost
> levels may not be achieved but that has more to do with
inefficient
> combustion than anything else. Based on my
observations, I do not believe
> the AVC-R reduces boost based on
IDC.
>
> If it does I'd certainly like to know when it decides to
knock back boost.
> That would be a factor in choosing injector
size.
Well, you guys have a lot more experience with this than I,
but
my observations support Roger's theory. When my AVC-R
sees the IDC get
above 90%, it starts blinking, and this
is when the boost level starts
decreasing. It appears as
if the AVC-R sees that the injectors are
close to maxing out
and starts bleeding off some of the pressure to keep
things
in check.
If this is the case, then is the Blitz failing to
prevent
a dangerous situation?
BTW, Barry, it sounds like you're doing
some impressive
testing!! Remember, the AVC-R only goes up to 2.0
bar! :-)
-Jim
- --
Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de
(64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews***
3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.htmlJet
Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active
Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0
bar @ 70/84% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged
Wipers
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix
brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS
(so far): 166mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9
mph
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 24 Oct 1998 19:28:07 +0100
From: Jim Matthews <
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine rebuild update
LotoBoost@aol.com wrote:
>
>
Jim Matthews wrote:
> >
> > The bottom line: can the stock
injectors flow enough fuel for
> > extended durations at 1.0 bar at
near redline??
>
> With 15G's, I've run 1.0bar during extended HW
runs (70mph to 150mph). It
> gets things on the lean side, but
shouldn't hurt anything. Stock turbos at
> 1.0bar should be a little
easier on the fuel I'd think. If you shift to 5th
> gear, however,
I'd keep a close eye on the EGT's.
Why would bigger turbos change the
mixture at the same boost
pressure? 1.0 bar is 1.0 bar, right? I
would think the 15Gs
would simply spool up a bit slower and hold EGTs down at
the
same boost and mixture...
-Jim
- --
Matthews - Wiesbaden,
Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de
(64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews***
3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.htmlJet
Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active
Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0
bar @ 70/84% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged
Wipers
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix
brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS
(so far): 166mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:30:11 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
RE: boost lag, engine rebuild update
> -----Original
Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
[
mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of Jim Matthews
> Sent: Saturday, October 24, 1998 11:24 AM
>
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine rebuild update
> Well,
you guys have a lot more experience with this than I,
> but my
observations support Roger's theory. When my AVC-R
> sees the IDC
get above 90%, it starts blinking, and this
> is when the boost level
starts decreasing. It appears as
> if the AVC-R sees that the
injectors are close to maxing out
> and starts bleeding off some of the
pressure to keep things
> in check.
While it is possible the SAVC-R
has this feature I have not seen reference
to it in any literature.
You'd think a feature like this would be bragged
about. In any case, I
would think that with stock blowers and high RPMs
where you are no doubt
seeing these high IDCs you'll be seeing boost drop
off anyway.
I have
15Gs and 550cc injectors. However I still hit 92% IDC (and
sometimes
higher). I have never observed the boost dropping off.
Once the boost hits
20 PSI on my car it stays there until I lift regardless
of RPM or IDC
achieved.
> If this is the case, then is the Blitz
failing to prevent
> a dangerous situation?
I wouldn't knock the
Blitz too much. Although a nice safety feature
(presuming it does
indeed exists) the boost controller shouldn't really be
responsible for
controlling fuel. If there is a fuel delivery issue that
should be
addressed separately.
> BTW, Barry, it sounds like you're doing some
impressive
> testing!! Remember, the AVC-R only goes up to 2.0
bar! :-)
Haha. I doubt I'll ever be running THAT much
;)
> -Jim
Regards,
Barry
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:56:44 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
RE: boost lag, engine rebuild update
Bigger turbos increase air
flow. More air means more fuel required. If you
don't change the
fuel you'll have a leaner mixture, even at the same boost
as a smaller
turbo. Boost by itself does not determine mixture.
The point of
larger turbos is not to raise boost but to increase the amount
of air flowed
at a given boost. The side benefit is that larger turbos also
can
achieve higher boost levels and hold it lopnger throughout the
RPM
range.
A stock 9B flows roughly 265 CFM @ 15 PSI. An
unported 15G will flow
roughly 404 CFM @ 15 PSI. The stock turbo is
capable of delivering 530 CFM
versus the 808 CFM of the 15G at the same boost
of 15 PSI. Big difference.
Actual airflow through the combustion
chamber will vary on other factors,
but I'm sure you get the
point.
Combustion temperatures (and therefore EGT) is dependant solely on
mixture
and the efficiency of the combustion. Exactly where EGT is
measured can
also make a significant difference. Ideally you want the
pyrometer 10" from
the flame front. This isn't always possible.
Consider also the distance
from each exhaust port in a mutli-cyclinder
application to a single
pyrometer. Heat is some aggregate of each hole
with furthest cylinders
contributing less than the closest ones. We're
starting to split hairs here
but the point is when comparing numbers all this
needs to be at least
considered.
On my roadrace bikes each cylinder
had a separate pyrometer. Ideally they'd
run at the same temperatures
but the reality is they do not. This is a good
reason for balancing
injectors to individual cylinders and also having the
ability to tune fuel
delivery to an individual cylinder.
It is a myth that a turbocharged
engine "runs hotter" than an NA engine. A
t/c engine typically produces
higher underhood temperatures for other
reasons but that is not the same as
the temperature of combustion.
Combustion temperatures at the flame front
approach 2000 F for a well tuned
high performance 4-stroke gasoline
engine. Fuel is still fuel, air is still
air and metal melts at the
same temperatures regardless of the method
of
induction.
Regards,
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
[
mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of Jim Matthews
> Sent: Saturday, October 24, 1998 11:28 AM
>
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine rebuild
update
>
>
>
LotoBoost@aol.com wrote:
>
>
> > Jim Matthews wrote:
> > >
> > > The
bottom line: can the stock injectors flow enough fuel for
> > >
extended durations at 1.0 bar at near redline??
> >
> > With
15G's, I've run 1.0bar during extended HW runs (70mph to
> 150mph).
It
> > gets things on the lean side, but shouldn't hurt
anything.
> Stock turbos at
> > 1.0bar should be a little easier
on the fuel I'd think. If you
> shift to 5th
> > gear,
however, I'd keep a close eye on the EGT's.
>
> Why would bigger
turbos change the mixture at the same boost
> pressure? 1.0 bar is
1.0 bar, right? I would think the 15Gs
> would simply spool up a bit
slower and hold EGTs down at the
> same boost and
mixture...
>
> -Jim
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 24 Oct 1998 15:22:02 -0400
From: "Ron-a-roid" <
rtetetet@email.msn.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: VR4 Advice please
>OK guys, I'm making the plunge
and need the fine points to look for. Found
a
>95 VR4 and I'm going to
look at Thursday or so to... most likely buy it.
The
>93SL I have is
great but I guess I want _REALLY_ great. I also have never
>cared for FWD.
Besides crunches, bends, shock leaks, tire wear, etc, where
>are the red
flag zones on a VR4?
I checked the car out and it looks good, a few
more dings than I like and
car wash swirls. (3 rt side door dents, 2 rear
1/4, 1 front:-( )
NO leaks, no heat marks under hood, all repair records,
good rubber, no
shock leaks, rims in good shape, smooth trany up & down,
good power,
consistent boost, solid no rattles or thumps in drive train or
suspension.
Active aero thumps when it levels out at under 35.
Two
things concern me;
1. The brakes are spongy, I can pin the pedal to the
floor. They stop good
but not as good as my SL as far as raw stopping power.
Probably because the
system is spongy. Has not had brake line recall done.
Anti lock light blinks
3 times at start up, not a solid 4 - 6 second light
like my 93 SL.
2. The car has had Valvoline 10-30w in it all the changes
he had receipts
for from the dealer. I would have preferred to see Mobil1 or
a synthetic and
would want to change to synthetic after purchase. I have read
that changing
from petroleum to synthetic can induce seal shrinkage and
possible leaks
later on. Anybody else heard of this and have knowledge of
it?
The car is a 95 VR4, Danube Blue, 18" chromies, Michelin tires,
Infinity
stereo, BIG sun roof, leather, etc.
34,700 mi's, AWD, AWS, All
the goodies. Asking $26,500.
Ron
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 24 Oct 1998 20:43:10 +0100
From: Jim Matthews <
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Re: VR4 Advice please
Ron-a-roid wrote:
>
> The car is a 95 VR4, Danube Blue, 18" chromies, Michelin tires,
Infinity
> stereo, BIG sun roof, leather, etc.
> 34,700 mi's, AWD,
AWS, All the goodies. Asking $26,500.
Sounds a bit steep. The car
you are looking at sounds
very similar to my '94 when I bought it in
96. Same
mileage, no sunroof or active aero (Stealth), alloy
wheels,
black, fewer dings, $20k. I'd ask them to take care of
the
swirls. The brakes may feel spongier than your SL
due to the additional
weight. My pedal goes to the floor
as well (braided lines). My
car also had dino oil and
switching to synthetics caused no noticable ill
effects.
I'd try for closer to $20. -Jim
- --
Matthews -
Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de
(64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews***
3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.htmlJet
Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active
Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0
bar @ 70/84% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged
Wipers
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix
brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS
(so far): 166mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9
mph
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 24 Oct 1998 21:20:32 +0100
From: Jim Matthews <
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine rebuild update
Barry E. King
wrote:
>
> Jim Matthews wrote:
> >
> > Well, you
guys have a lot more experience with this than I,
> > but my
observations support Roger's theory. When my AVC-R
> > sees the
IDC get above 90%, it starts blinking, and this
> > is when the boost
level starts decreasing. It appears as
> > if the AVC-R sees that
the injectors are close to maxing out
> > and starts bleeding off some
of the pressure to keep things
> > in check.
>
> While it
is possible the SAVC-R has this feature I have not seen reference
> to it
in any literature. You'd think a feature like this would be
bragged
> about. In any case, I would think that with stock blowers
and high RPMs
> where you are no doubt seeing these high IDCs you'll be
seeing boost drop
> off anyway.
Just took a look at the SAVC-R docs
on A'PEXi's web page.
Unfortunately, they aren't very revealing (or
well-written),
but I did find these statements:
http://www.apexi-usa.com/docsavcr10.htm"The
display will begin to flash if the injectors reach
over 98% capacity." (so
what?)
http://www.apexi-usa.com/docsavcr12.htm"Although
this unit has a RPM separate self learning function,
vehicles maximizing
their injectors by 6200 RPM will not be able
to use the self learning
function during that period because
the unit uses the injector signal to read
the engine RPM for
the self learning function. In order to have more
precise
boost control, the solution to this problem is to upgrade
to
higher capacity injectors."
http://www.apexi-usa.com/esavc.htmThe
A'pex Super AVC-R is one of the most technologically
advanced boost controllers on the market yet, it is one of
the
most easiest to use. The Super AVC-R is the only
boost
controller that integrates injector pulse
monitoring and
increases boost response. The unit is
"self learning" (unlike
fuzzy logic with its
dangerous "calibration"). This unit utilizes a
solenoid actuator valve to control boost, similar to the
ones
used on the turbocharged Honda F-1 race cars.
It is a closed
loop type boost controller that has
its own pressure sensor to
compensate for
atmospheric changes and maintain steady boost levels
at all altitudes. The
Super
AVC-R has a sophisticated appearance that
features two user preset
modes--A & B for on the
fly
adjustments and RPM specific overshoot
protection for boost
stability. The Super AVC-R is
universal
for most boost-dependent applications with
an internal or external
type wastegate.
> > If this is the
case, then is the Blitz failing to prevent
> > a dangerous
situation?
>
> I wouldn't knock the Blitz too much. Although
a nice safety feature
> (presuming it does indeed exists) the boost
controller shouldn't really be
> responsible for controlling fuel.
If there is a fuel delivery issue that
> should be addressed
separately.
Not trying to knock it, just trying to figure out what
is
going on. Would the AVC-R also be able to hold 1.0 bar
at redline
like the Blitz if all of the other mods were the
same? I don't
understand why one controller would be able
to sustain boost better than
another. It must be that my
stock exhaust is simply too
restrictive.
-Jim
- --
Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de
(64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews***
3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.htmlJet
Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active
Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0
bar @ 70/84% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged
Wipers
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix
brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS
(so far): 166mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9
mph
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 24 Oct 1998 14:26:13 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
RE: boost lag, engine rebuild update
> -----Original
Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
[
mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of Jim Matthews
> Sent: Saturday, October 24, 1998 1:21 PM
>
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine rebuild
update
<snip>
> Just took a look at the SAVC-R docs on
A'PEXi's web page.
> Unfortunately, they aren't very revealing (or
well-written),
> but I did find these statements:
>
>
>
http://www.apexi-usa.com/docsavcr10.htm>
>
"The display will begin to flash if the injectors reach
> over 98%
capacity." (so what?)
Visual clue that you're heading into the danger
zone.
>
http://www.apexi-usa.com/docsavcr12.htm>
>
"Although this unit has a RPM separate self learning function,
> vehicles
maximizing their injectors by 6200 RPM will not be able
> to use the self
learning function during that period because
> the unit uses the injector
signal to read the engine RPM for
> the self learning function. In
order to have more precise
> boost control, the solution to this problem
is to upgrade to
> higher capacity
injectors."
<snip>
> Not trying to knock it, just trying
to figure out what is
> going on.
Understood. Did not intend
to imply otherwise.
> Would the AVC-R also be able to hold 1.0
bar
> at redline like the Blitz if all of the other mods were the
>
same? I don't understand why one controller would be able
> to
sustain boost better than another. It must be that my
> stock
exhaust is simply too restrictive.
Based on what you found, it makes
sense that the AVC-R would allow bleed
down under high IDC situations.
From that blurb it appears that the AVC-R
simply doesn't learn the boost
curve in those circumstances whereas the DSBC
can since it is not considering
the IDC.
Since tuning in the MASC I haven't been reaching above 98%
(typically hit
92-94% -- still too high IMO) so I would not have experienced
this
situation. Kind of a nice safety feature actually.
>
-Jim
Regards,
Barry
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm------------------------------
Date:
Sat, 24 Oct 1998 15:27:57 -0700
From: "Barry E. King" <
beking@home.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
AVC-R tuning (WAS: boost lag, engine rebuild update)
It occurred to me
that in order to allow the AVC-R to learn maximum boost
without one would
need to get it to learn the maximum boost at an IDC less
than what it
considers dangerous. To do this you'd have to choose the next
highest
gear and with the goal of achieving maximum desired boost before
running into
the RPM and IDC ceilings.
It wouldn't be practical for me to try this
(I'd have to at least reinstall
stock injectors and probably the stock turbos
<grin>) but perhaps you or
someone else with an AVC-R and a stockish
car could could experiement with
this
approach.
Regards,
Barry
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