From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Oct 13 12:28:56 1998
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From:
Chris Winkley <
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To:
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'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
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Subject:
RE: Octane and ECU
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:26:27 -0700
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Jim...
I'd throw in some octane
boost as well. I add a variety of boosters from time to time. There's an
"off road
only" variety sold here in the States that's about
$10.00 a bottle. It's the only one I can really feel, but
perhaps it's just
because my wallet is so much lighter. :-)
I worry at times, as
Beastie sits for months at a time this time of year. I generally go to the
garage,
uncover him, fire him up and pretend I'm driving. Makes me feel
good, but I don't know about the car. Any
ideas on storage
maintenance?
Roger/Jim...it appears you have both modified your ECU. Any
recommendations? Roger, to you in particular, did
the G-Force ECU provide
good results (B4 you caught on fire)? Do you find yourselves having to run
higher
octane with different injectors and turbos?
Looking
forward...Chris
"Friends don't let friends ride with
me"
1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4
-----Original
Message-----
From: Jim Matthews [
SMTP:matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de]
Sent:
Tuesday, October 13, 1998 11:48 AM
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.comSubject:
Re: Hesitation/Knocks
Thanx for the response, Darcy. I'm thinking
it's either
bad gas or time for a tune-up. The latter seems unlikely
since
it was just done 20k miles ago. What is the tune-up interval
for
a car with my mods and settings? :-) Tomorrow I will bump
down
the AVC-R settings (or turn it off) and see if it makes
any
difference in smoothness. If that works, then I'll reset
the
AVC-R and send it into its learn cycle again. If the ECU
is
playing games, what do I need to do to reset it (besides
disconnecting
the battery)? Thanx...
-Jim
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(64 Kbps ISDN)
3Si:
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.htmlMods:
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http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFrom
owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Oct 13 12:31:53 1998
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From: "R.G." <
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stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.comSubject:
Re: long sigs...
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Well, often it helps to see the mods in
the sig lines. That's why the f-body
list allows 8 lines. But if the members
just hit the reply/quote button than the
lines will be repeated and repeated.
I just remember the stupid sig of Mr.Adams
with his trunk ligh repair blabla.
One the responded and he responded again
until we had his sig 4-times in a
message.
> Example: Lately I've been feeling some hesitation at
various
> RPMs through hard acceleration. Considering my mods and
settings,
> do you think I'm experiencing knock? Gee, wouldn't it be
nice
> to glance at my OLD signature to comment?!
Ok, the sig would
help, but for this I'd just add my mods :) But, IMHO, I think
listing the
mods in the sig would help to find out friends that maybe have the
same Blitz
as I do and I can ask him what settings he's running. The last post I
sent to
the list was with a large sig that listed everything up including what
was
planned or is sitting on the floor. I got some responses regarding the
mods
due to this.
Cheers, Roger
PS: No, I don't send it always
with all my posts :)
-----------------------
Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor
wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,SBOV,ATR DP/cat,
Borla,OZ
Mito2,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,Bremsa brakes,Pagid RS-R pads
Ready:
GT-Alley 368S Turbos,front mount IC/ stainless steel piping,G-Force ECU
(3
EPROMS),fuel pump,VPC,GCC,720 Injectors,Blitz Filter/GT-Alley VPC
adapter,
Maybe: f.aluminum pistons (if rebuild needed)
Visit my homepage
under:
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/For
unsubscribe info and FAQ, see our web page at
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFrom
owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Oct 13 13:08:08 1998
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From: "Bob
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Welcome to:
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 13:07:06 -0700
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Welcome to:
Brad Bedell
TX
Eric Lotter MA
Rommel O. Dizon OR
'Yoss' (P.N.
Sankarshanan) OR
and (I think) Lloyd Wihl...
CANADA
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http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFrom
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Re: long sigs...
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 13:21:50 -0700
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-----Original Message-----From: R.G.
<
robby@swissonline.ch>
|Well,
often it helps to see the mods in the sig lines. That's why
the
f-body
|list allows 8 lines. But if the members just hit the
reply/quote button
than
It looks like we have enough of a
consensus... I, too, had a 7-line SIG
that I didn't find
objectionable. (Almost every rule we can eliminate
will get my
vote.) If we present philosophy, rather than restrictions,
I think
we'll have a list that allows for different personalities.
Let's
'suggest' proper form but dump the SIG rule.
Forrest
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unsubscribe info and FAQ, see our web page at
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFrom
owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Oct 13 13:29:52 1998
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To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.comSubject:
Re: Hesitation/Knocks
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> There was some talk on the old list
about knocks (Roger
> contributed...Roger? ?) so maybe we can revive it
here and look for
> likely cases and solutions.
Yes, I runned my
car up to 1.26bars where I got fuel cut. After adding the AFC
the fuel cut
was cured by leaning it out around 5600. The measures on the dyno
showed that
we where still on the rich side, but we also found out that the
timing got
heavily retarded. We then took the old "garden hose knock
detector"
and went down with the boost until knock dissapeared.
Unfortunately, boost was
then only 1.05bars :( and power went down from 465hp
to 397hp (DIN)
The hesitation can be caused by the ECU retarding the
timing as it sees knock.
The more or longer you're running in this situation,
the more the ECU thinks
that there's something wrong and finally jumps into
the emergency program. This
then only lets you drive around 2600 and doesn't
allow you for more for about 30
seconds or more (can't remember). The knock
is mostly caused by a lean situation
in a combustion chamber. Unfortunately
an EGT meter cannot 100% see this if not
on the dyno holding the car at 5500
under full load. Only then we where able to
see short lean spikes that caused
knock and retarded the timing (see my
homepage). Well, the lean situation can
be caused by different things :
a) less fuel (add more fuel)
b) badly
gapped plugs (regap the plugs)
c) backpressure (the biggest problem)
d)
too much heat in the chamber (a better intercooler)
e) badly burnt gases
(clogged up valves that not close good)
Unfortunately, a lot people think
that we can just add fuel, fuel and more fuel
and the problem will be cured.
This is worng ! Of course the sympton goes away
as the additional fuel will
cool down the combustion chamber and therefore help
to avoid knock. The
drawback of this is that we then run way too rich as well as
we'll loose some
hrses due to this. Sure we are able to increase boost then to
regain the
ponies but we have still the orignial problem. We only cured
the
sympton.
On our cars the exhaust manifold, the turbos and the
pre-cats are the main
restrictions. The biggest problem is that the turbine
cannot get rid off the
boost and heat that builds before the turbo. Therefore
the gases cannot go out
of the combustion chamber and will be burst again in
the next cycle ... causing
a lean situation ! As then the pressure in the
manifold is reduced because one
of three didn't worked well, it could be that
in the next cycle the problem is
gone. Experts call this "high speed
knock". Of course it'll come back pretty
soon and therefore causes your
hesitation. Therefore a bigger turbo does not
only mean a bigger intake
but as well a bigger turbine and housing as this
should help to get rid off
the additional pressure and heat. Also a well
designed exhaust manifold as
well as removed pre-cats would free up the flow.
Only then adding a bigger DP
and adding a free flow cat together with a good
cat-back will do the full job
for us. The turbos are sitting on the floor while
I expect the manifold next
week. Also I know that David Buschur just developed
replacement pipes for the
pre-cats (I'm in contact with him) and he's testing
them out. I'll probably
go with them to have the less possible restriction to
lower the backpressure
as well as to lower the heat in the exhaust manifold.
I'm currently
working on my diagnostic tool and it will have a knock monitor as
this is
only reading a voltage comming to the ECU (like others, O2, idle
speed,
etc.). I currently don't know what level is knock but I'll have it
ready when
I'm (Ahem, my car) is again on the dyno the next time
:)
> I know I had some hesitation with hard acceleration awile back
and cleared
> it up with a simple fuel additive.
Increasing the
octane always helps until it's used up but unfortunately, there's
no octane
booster available here :(
Hope this helps ...
Roger,
93'3000GT
TT
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue
Oct 13 13:30:01 1998
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Subject: Re:
sand on the engine
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> Sand in the engine compartment. Are you guys using
sand in your fire
> extinguishers?
Yes, it is a mixture of sand and
some chemicals that should not hurt if a person
is on fire. But I must say
that I had problems to breath as well my tears runned
down afterwards. Of
course because the engine looked horrible but also I felt
there was some acid
in the bottle (1kg)
> I saw a post some time back about someone having
to blow sand out
> of their plug holes. I hosed out my engine compartment
a few weeks ago
> because I had a collection of what appeared to be sand
on the manifold, on the
> shock towers, on the battery, just about every
horizontal surface.
Only horizontal surface ? Now just think about having
sand allover the K&N as
well as in the y-pipe that popped off. Also I
think there's a lot sand lying
still around. I washed it pretty well and
adviced the mechanic to do it again
before he takes the engine apart
=8)
> Now, I haven't had an engine fire (and I believe my extinguisher
will spray
> foam) and I don't drive on dirt roads. Where is this stuff
coming from???
I don't know how's the wind is on your hometown but last
summer we had some sand
comming up from the Sahara that then got down to the
cars here. Strange huh ?
Cheers, Roger
93'3000GT TT
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Subject: Re: long sigs...
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Bob Forrest wrote:
<snip>
> Let's
'suggest' proper form but dump the SIG rule.
Agreed here. Just so
long as folks remember to trim them off when
replying if they don't
apply.
I still think the ascii art sux, tho. Just MHO.
You
wanna do it Bob, or shall I?
Rich
Emerald Green 94 R/T
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Subject: Re: sig "theft" and
sand...
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Chris:
I too get this sand in my engine
compartment. I got a can of compressed
air to use under the hood before
doing any more work.
My guess, and it's only a theory, is that the sand
is part of the road
dirt that gets blown under and into the engine
compartment during normal
driving. In my theory, the carbon-based
material like leaves, organic
soil, etc. is blown/whisked away as you go down
the road because of its
light weight, but the silica-based stuff (sand) is
much heavier and is
simply deposited in the nooks and crannies. We use
a sand/gravel mix on
the roads here in the Pacific Northwet in the winters in
lieu of salt
(thankyouthankyouthankyou), and a lot of it is on the roads
year-round,
and eventually ends up sitting on our manifolds.
That's my
Sand Theory (tm) .... and I'm sticking to it. :-)
Rich
Emerald
Green 94 R/T
Chris Winkley wrote:
<snip>
> Roger
said something in his "engine on fire" post that
> caught my
eye. Sand in the engine compartment. Are you
> guys using sand in your
fire extinguishers? I saw a post
> some time back about someone having to
blow sand out of
> their plug holes. I hosed out my engine compartment a
> few weeks ago because I had a collection of what appeared
> to be
sand on the manifold, on the shock towers, on the
> battery, just about
every horizontal surface. Now, I
> haven't had an engine fire (and I
believe my extinguisher
> will spray foam) and I don't drive on dirt
roads. Where
> is this stuff coming from???
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From
owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Oct 13 14:46:24 1998
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Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 23:45:55
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From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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Subject: Re: Octane and ECU
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> I'd throw in some octane boost as well. I add a
variety of boosters from time
> to time.
Maybe a cleaner would help
more. Especially as our cars run more "fat" :)
>
Roger/Jim...it appears you have both modified your ECU. Any
recommendations?
> Roger, to you in particular, did the G-Force ECU
provide good results (B4 you
> caught on fire)? Do you find yourselves
having to run higher octane with
> different injectors and
turbos?
No, Jim (from Wiesbaden) doesn't have a modified ECU. To be
honest I haven't
drove the car much and I think the ECU still learned
the figures until the fire
stopped everything. Out of the garage, I felt a
better throttle response as well
as more low-end power (typical for advanced
timing on lower rpm) But I still
have the AFC installed too and I can't say
anything to the A/F ratio. Of course
I replaced the ECU before I sent the car
to the dealer (luckily I haven't sent
the original to Brian yet).
The
turbos will be bigger as well as I will install the 720ccm
injectors.
Additionally the VPC together with the GCC will act as the
fine-tuning device
for the big injectors and also to remove the air intake
restriction.
I don't plan to run higher octane as I currently run our 98
octane here in
Europe. Therefore boost must be limited to a healthier level
to prevent knock or
leaning it out. Of course we only can do this properly on
the dyno then. I
really wonder how the setup works then. I'll start with only
the turbos (and
bigger oil lines) at first to provide a staged
upgrade.
Later, Roger
93'3000GT TT
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From
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From:
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To:
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Subject: Re: long sigs...
Date:
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-----Original Message-----From: Rich
<rleroy@pacifier.com>
|> Let's 'suggest' proper form but dump
the SIG rule.
|
|Agreed here. Just so long as folks remember to trim
them off when
|replying if they don't apply.
|
|I still think the
ascii art sux, tho. Just MHO.
|
|You wanna do it Bob, or shall
I?
Already done-- I changed the 5 SIG limit to read,
"Please limit your
own signature to just what's necessary and relevant
to the list." And
added, "DO NOT use ASCII Art in your SIG;
it only lines up on machines
identical to yours, which there are NONE.
I left the stuff about
trimming quoted
SIGs...
Later,
F
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From
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From: Brad Bedell
<bbedell@texas.net>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: long sigs...
Date:
Tue, 13 Oct 1998 17:24:42 -0500
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Didn't we
just cover this topic in Starnet? Or was it Dragnet?
By creating a
different list, all I see is that we carried the topics to a different
server.
My .02 worth...
> Brad
>
> Check out my home
page: http://lonestar.texas.net/~bbedell
> E-Mail:
bbedell@texas.net ICQ# 3612682
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From
owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Oct 13 16:32:00 1998
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From: Chris Winkley
<cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'Team3S'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Doing it all over...
Date:
Tue, 13 Oct 1998 16:29:33 -0700
Organization: ADP Dealer
Services
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Roger...
Looking at your very impressive list of
mods, one question comes to mind...
If you had it to do all over, would
you do the same mods? In the same order? (I guess that's two
questions).
Since I've done the intake, catback exhaust, Magnecore wires,
platinum plugs, and boost controller (leaving
out the turbo timer and
springs since they "really" don't count as performance mods), I'm
looking for other
opinions on the next "best" step. The downpipe
and test pipe should be shipping soon, so that choice is
already made. But
then there's ECU mods, turbo mods, injector mods, nitrous.
Wow, so many
choices, so little money. :-)
Looking
forward...Chris
"Friends don't let friends ride with
me"
1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4
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From
owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Oct 13 21:43:16 1998
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Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:41:22
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Hey Chris;
Glad to hear you got your BC running
full tilt...it's a Greddy right ?
It seems we have at least three members out
of the hallowed 7 with one
of the major units (Apexi, Greddy, Blitz...) to
advise new purchasers on
the particular do's and don't's peculiar to each
make. I hope to be
installing mine soon and it looks to be an Super Apexi
(Blitz almost
won me over but) for the simple reason of economics...
$430 shipping
included for a Super Apexi, so one really cannot go wrong. I
just got in
on the tail end of a group order (Still has to be verified) or I
would
have gone with Chein's Blitz at $449..plus shipping. This upgrade has
me
nearly as excited as when I bought the car!!!
Is anyone still
running a stock BOV, and if I blow mine off playing with
my new
instalation...can I limp it home or is it a tow job?
Darc
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue
Oct 13 23:37:54 1998
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Date:
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From: Jim Matthews
<matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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Subject: Re:
Octane and ECU
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R.G. wrote:
>
> > Roger/Jim...it appears
you have both modified your ECU. Any recommendations? [ ...
]
> No, Jim (from Wiesbaden) doesn't have a modified ECU.
Correct,
my ECU is stock. I'll put my mods back in my sig later!!
> I
don't plan to run higher octane as I currently run our 98 octane here in
>
Europe.
To clarify, 98 octane in Europe = 93 octane in the
states.
Also, regarding my hesitation, I just began noticing it
over
the weekend. I have not changed any settings for at least
three
weeks. I always get Super Bleifrei Plus (98/93 octane)
gas at Esso
(Exxon). This is why I'm confused. Perhaps it's
time to clean the
K&N and reset everything. I'll try and let
you know what
happens.
-Jim
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden,
Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed
Oct 14 06:34:43 1998
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Jim Matthews wrote:
>
> Also, regarding my
hesitation, I just began noticing it over
> the weekend. I have not
changed any settings for at least
> three weeks. I always get Super
Bleifrei Plus (98/93 octane)
> gas at Esso (Exxon). This is why I'm
confused. Perhaps it's
> time to clean the K&N and reset
everything. I'll try and let
> you know what happens.
Jim how
often is resetting the ECU required with a an aftermarket BC (or
Roger,
Chris.. feel free to jump in on this)..is this tweeking and
letting the ECU
relearn every couple of weeks fairly standard once mods
are introduced? My
KNFP and slight exhaust mod have not required any
relearning since the
initial battery disconnect at instalation 6 months
ago. The only hesitation
which has ever occurred was the low octane
problem I noted earlier, which
incidentally, really had me worried until
solved with a bottle of boost. I
thought I was running into one of the
Nasty Problems one occassionally hear's
about, but which one thinks will
never happen to them.( I just knocked on
wood). Again, this baseline
info will help myself and others anticipate such
tuning away a problem
before it occurs.
I hope everyone has changed
their antifreeze for the season.
Darc
when I installes
it.
>
-Jim
> --
> Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
>
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps ISDN)
>
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
>
> For unsubscribe
info and FAQ, see our web page at
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For unsubscribe info and FAQ, see
our web page at http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Oct 14 09:22:37 1998
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From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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> To clarify, 98 octane in Europe = 93 octane in the
states.
Huh ? What octane then is our 91 or 89 in the States
??
Roger,
93'3000GT TT
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From
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Subject: Re: Octane and ECU
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> Jim how often is resetting the ECU required with a an
aftermarket BC (or
> Roger, Chris.. feel free to jump in on this)..is this
tweeking and
> letting the ECU relearn every couple of weeks fairly
standard once mods
> are introduced?
No, the BC will not tweak the
ECU. I never resetted it as there was no reason
for this. The ECU always
adjusts itselfes but there's not a real learning thing.
Of course if you'd
reset it after adding a new filter the result will occur
faster as the
adjustments will made faster (no old data in it). Of course, I
always
disconnect the battery when I work on the car and therefore the new
values
will be stored immediatly.
> The only hesitation which has ever
occurred was the low octane
> problem I noted earlier, which incidentally,
really had me worried until
> solved with a bottle of boost.
Well,
this is solved for a particular period until your tank is empty.
The
hesitation depends on your boost seetings and how wide you set the gaps
as well
as other things I described in an earlier post.
Later,
Roger
93'3000GT TT
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed
Oct 14 09:22:45 1998
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Greddy (blow off valve)
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> Is anyone still running a stock BOV, and if I blow
mine off playing with
> my new instalation...can I limp it home or is it a
tow job?
There's no chance to blow off the stock BOV ! It's just too
small and too slow
to be able to release the more pressure. If you blow off
the hoses to it or the
y-pipe just have a screwdriver with you to fix them up
again.
Roger,
93'3000GT TT
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From
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From:
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Subject: Re: Octane and ECU
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-----Original Message-----From:
wce@bc.sympatico.ca
<wce@bc.sympatico.ca>
|I hope everyone has
changed their antifreeze for the season.
We only have one season
here; I never have to shovel fog... :-)
Seriously, this is one of
those items I've never paid attention to. I
know they changed
antifreeze last year during a scheduled maintenance,
but is there a reason to
change more frequently? I only do low mileage,
and it's never really
hot or cold around here...
Forrest
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From
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Bob Forrest wrote:
Seriously, this is one
of those items I've never paid attention to. I
> know they
changed antifreeze last year during a scheduled maintenance,
> but is
there a reason to change more frequently? I only do low mileage,
>
and it's never really hot or cold around here...
The anticorrosive agent
in antifreeze breaks down (in good stuff, after about 2 years) so
there is a
real danger of corrosion with our aluminum block engines. I have heard
some
horror stories (not of Stealth's yet) so change it at least ever 2nd
year if not annually.
Darc
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From: Jim Matthews <matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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This morning I put the AVC-R back into learn mode and
it
seems to have done the trick. Acceleration is now smooth
again
through the entire RPM range. I think last time I
changed the settings
(any time the boost pressure or BADC
settings are changed, the AVC-R goes
into learn mode) it
simply didn't learn the boost curve properly. The
only
thing I did differently then was I put the AVC-R into
lock mode
immediately after changing the settings. Is
it possible that lock mode
not only prevents the user
from changing the settings but also keeps the
AVC-R from
optimizing the boost curve? There is no mention of
this
in the manual. At any rate, I'm back in business.
Thanx for all of
the suggestions!
-Jim
P.S.- Darcy, the ECU should only need
resetting when mods
are initially installed. There is no ECU reset
interval
that needs to be followed when mods are on the car.
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps
ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
*** 3000GT-Stealth
International (3Si) Member #0030
***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94
Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension,
Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84%
BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
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plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided
brake lines
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G-Tech
Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
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Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998
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From: Jim Matthews
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Last time I visited Roger we had an interesting
discussion
about how our cars handle. His goes like a ball of
FIRE!
That's what he gets for choosing FIRESTORM red! Sorry,
not
funny. Let me start again... :-)
Last time I visited Roger we had
an interesting discussion
about how our cars handle. Having taken many
performance
driving skills classes, Roger has considerable experience
with
driving his VR4 in a wide variety of road conditions
and emergency
situations. My experience is much more limited
and is completely based
on street driving. While most of
our observations seemed consistent, we
had slightly different
views on how the car handles while cornering.
Since I had
a scare this morning on the way to work, I thought I'd
run
this past some of you to see how your cars behave in
similar
situations.
My experience has been that while cornering, the
car will
understeer under throttle and oversteer when the throttle
is
lifted. The oversteer is worse if the brakes are applied.
The first
time I noticed this was when I was driving on a
twisty, dry road in Maryland
on fairly worn Pirelli P7000SS.
I entered one corner too fast and found the
car pushing into
the opposing lane. Not wanting to get close and
personal with
someone I didn't know coming the other direction, my
instinct
was to lift off of the gas and gradually apply the brakes.
As
soon as I got off the gas, the front tires seemed to grab
harder and the car
began to get back in line. As I got on the
brakes, I noticed that the
the nose of the car was moving
toward the shoulder... the rear end was loose
and the brakes
were making it worse. The car was acting exactly
opposite of
my old '66 Mustang (RWD). Totally confused, I lucked out
and
was able to regain control. When I got home I read the
chapter
in Prost's "Competition Driving" on how AWD cars handle
and
learned that I should have gotten on the gas! I vowed never
to
repeat the mistake.
This morning I found myself in a similar
situation. This
time the road was wet (it does nothing but rain in
Germany)
and a lot slicker than I thought (hey, I was playing with
the
AVC-R!). As I hit a ramp between Autobahns (why slow
down?), I again
felt the car understeering. Obviously not
having learned the previous
lesson, I lifted off the throttle
and found myself in a four wheel drift with
moderate oversteer.
Smooth counter-steering brought me out of the slide about
three
adrenaline-charged seconds later (I don't think I'm exaggerating).
I
was pretty nervous about that guard rail to the left but had
at least picked
a good line into the curve (to hell with those
white lines) and had left
myself plenty of room. After I calmed
down a bit I realized that what
had just happened was actually
pretty damn cool - almost FUN! Now I
can't wait to watch the
third leg of the Rally in Italy tonight on Eurosport
to see
those amazing drivers do this through every corner! (Did
anyone
see the Subaru driver drift through the left hander in the
first
leg with a shredded left front tire hanging on the
rim?!)
Anyway, has anyone else noticed similar behavior in
hard
cornering? It's curious how Roger's car does not exhibit
this
to the same degree. He has different tires and wheels,
and after
driving our cars back-to-back it was obvious that
his steering felt much
lighter and the car seemed "quicker"
in the handling
department. He also drove both cars hard
on wet roads (sorry about the
fingernail imprints in your
cockpit, Roger, they're in mine, too!) and
noticed that his
car seemed to stick to his line a little better.
Time
for a European gathering to do more comparisons!! ;-)
-Jim
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps
ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
*** 3000GT-Stealth
International (3Si) Member #0030
***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94
Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension,
Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84%
BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark
plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided
brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph
G-Tech
Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
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From
owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Oct 14 11:16:48 1998
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Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998
19:21:30 +0100
From: Jim Matthews
<matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re:
Octane and ECU
References:
<01BDF6A4.B41534C0.cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
<3623D823.5C41E77A@swissonline.ch>
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R.G. wrote:
>
> > Jim Matthews
wrote:
> >
> > To clarify, 98 octane in Europe = 93 octane in
the states.
>
> Huh ? What octane then is our 91 or 89 in the
States ??
My understanding is that the three octane levels in
Europe
(Bleifrei, Super Bleifrei, and Super Bleifrei Plus)
correspond
almost exactly with the three octane levels in the
states
(Regular Unleaded, Unleaded Plus, and Super Unleaded), which
are
rated 86-87, 89, and 92-94, respectively. The octane
values are
apparently computed differently in Europe, just
like everything else!
:-)
BTW, I have never seen octane ratings under 90 in
central
Germany. There may be lower-octane fuels available in
the
mountainous regions of Switzerland (and perhaps Bavaria)
due to the
higher elevations.
-Jim
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden,
Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps
ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
*** 3000GT-Stealth
International (3Si) Member #0030
***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94
Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension,
Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84%
BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark
plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided
brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph
G-Tech
Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
For unsubscribe info and
FAQ, see our web page at http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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From:
"Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Antifreeze; was Re: Octane
and ECU
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 11:19:03 -0700
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-----Original Message-----From:
wce@bc.sympatico.ca
<wce@bc.sympatico.ca>
|The anticorrosive
agent in antifreeze breaks down (in good stuff, after
about 2 years)
so
|there is a real danger of corrosion with our aluminum block engines.
I
have heard some
|horror stories (not of Stealth's yet) so change it at
least ever 2nd
year if not annually.
When aluminum corrodes, a
thin layer of cloudy white aluminum oxide is
formed on the surface of the
aluminum. This actually becomes a
protectant sheet which prevents
further corrosion. Have you heard this
from reliable sources, or from
local mechanics. I'm just a bit of a
doubter on this one, since once
the aluminum oxide is created, corrosion
can go no
further...
Forrest
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From
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Message-ID:
<01BDF774.AFDE7260.cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
From: Chris Winkley
<cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To:
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Greddy
Date: Wed, 14
Oct 1998 13:15:16 -0700
Organization: ADP Dealer Services
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Darc...
Good luck with the installation. I can't
say I chose the GReddy on anything, it was recommended by a person I
believed knew what he was talking about. This was prior to joining the 3SI
list. I probably would buy a Blitz
if I had it to do over again. Learning,
learning, learning.
I haven't had any problems with my BOV, but that
doesn't mean too much.
Looking forward...Chris
"Friends don't
let friends ride with me"
1995 Glacier Pearl White
VR4
-----Original Message-----
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
[SMTP:wce@bc.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 9:41 PM
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Greddy
Hey Chris;
Glad
to hear you got your BC running full tilt...it's a Greddy right ?
It seems we
have at least three members out of the hallowed 7 with one
of the major units
(Apexi, Greddy, Blitz...) to advise new purchasers on
the particular do's and
don't's peculiar to each make. I hope to be
installing mine soon and it looks
to be an Super Apexi (Blitz almost
won me over but) for the simple
reason of economics... $430 shipping
included for a Super Apexi, so one
really cannot go wrong. I just got in
on the tail end of a group order (Still
has to be verified) or I would
have gone with Chein's Blitz at $449..plus
shipping. This upgrade has me
nearly as excited as when I bought the
car!!!
Is anyone still running a stock BOV, and if I blow mine off
playing with
my new instalation...can I limp it home or is it a tow
job?
Darc
For unsubscribe info and FAQ, see our web page at
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
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web page at http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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Message-ID:
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From: Chris Winkley
<cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To:
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: ECU reset
Date:
Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:19:00 -0700
Organization: ADP Dealer
Services
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Darc...
You know, I tried to reset mine when I was
messing with the BC. I pulled both battery cables, couldn't
remember which I
should pull, left them off for an hour. Hooked them back up. Hmmm, the stereo
didn't reset,
but the BC did. Strange? Anyone have similar problems? Should
I have only pulled one cable? The ground?
Somehow put a load on the system
to drain whatever capacitance was still stored? How?
Looking
forward...Chris
"Friends don't let friends ride with
me"
1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4
-----Original
Message-----
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca [SMTP:wce@bc.sympatico.ca]
Sent:
Wednesday, October 14, 1998 6:33 AM
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Octane and
ECU
<snip>
Jim how often is resetting the ECU required with a an
aftermarket BC (or
Roger, Chris.. feel free to jump in on this)..is this
tweeking and
letting the ECU relearn every couple of weeks fairly standard
once mods
are introduced? My KNFP and slight exhaust mod have not required
any
relearning since the initial battery disconnect at instalation 6
months
ago. The only hesitation which has ever occurred was the low
octane
problem I noted earlier, which incidentally, really had me worried
until
solved with a bottle of boost. I thought I was running into one of
the
Nasty Problems one occassionally hear's about, but which one thinks
will
never happen to them.( I just knocked on wood). Again, this
baseline
info will help myself and others anticipate such tuning away a
problem
before it occurs.
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From
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Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:47:53
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From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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Subject: Re: Oversteer /
Understeer
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> His goes like a ball of FIRE! That's what he gets for
choosing FIRESTORM red!
Ahh, now I know where the WHOOOSH is coming from
(what about "Meteor", haha)
> My experience has been that
while cornering, the car will
> understeer under throttle and oversteer
when the throttle
> is lifted. The oversteer is worse if the brakes
are applied.
Yes, I remember our discussion and also how your car felt
compared to mine. I
agree with the understeer when going in to the corner as
well as when applying
the brakes in the curve. But when I then lift the gas
or the brakes I never feel
any oversteer. To be honest I even tried to get
into oversteer on the training
courses and it was pretty hard. Only on
special wet-streets on the course I was
able to turn the tail with some
tricks (u-turns). For the tires, I think I felt
some smart oversteer with the
stock 225/50-17 Dunlop SP8080 tires. They were
real crap and as I upgraded to
the SP8000 245/45-17 the handling went much
better. Now I have the Yokohama
AVS-Z1 255/40-17 and I'm not that happy with
them as I feel that the
understeer became worser than with the SP8000. Also wet
traction is not that
good but the price was really good for the Yokos :(
> I again felt the
car understeering. Obviously not
> having learned the previous
lesson, I lifted off the throttle
> and found myself in a four wheel drift
with moderate oversteer.
> Smooth counter-steering brought me out of the
slide about three
> adrenaline-charged seconds later (I don't think I'm
exaggerating).
Glad you came out of this with ... Style :) I was able to
do some AWD drifting
but only with having the foot on the throttle and the
streets pretty wet !
Please note : The lowest speed in a curve should be at
the beginning of it !
> It's curious how Roger's car does not
exhibit
> this to the same degree. He has different tires and
wheels,
> and after driving our cars back-to-back it was obvious
that
> his steering felt much lighter and the car seemed
"quicker"
> in the handling department.
I don't think
that the wheels are much lighter than your stock ones. Also I'm
sure your
Michelins are better than the Yokos but it's true I felt that my car
felt
more controllable than yours. Your steering was somewhat "hard" and
I
couldn't "feel" the street as good as I can do in mine. When the
street is
somewhat uneven in the corner I immediately feel this (remember the
longer left
corner at the beginning of the forest when heading home) and can
control it.
With your car I felt the steering wheel not moving and therefore
a slight drift
over all wheels occurred. We did this with the same speed and
my car did not got
the tail loose.
> He also drove both cars hard
on wet roads (sorry about the fingernail
> imprints in your cockpit,
Roger, they're in mine, too!) and noticed that
> his car seemed to stick
to his line a little better.
Haha, I'm sorry for this but it was a good
comparison :) Especially as your car
had much more lag than mine (grrrr). Of
course I stopped going hard with your
car as I felt we lost side traction and
found ourselves in a smooth shift over
all wheels.
Jim, I don't want
to paint black, but I'd check out the AWS (however this could
be done). What
will happen if the rear wheels do not steer ? IMHO, the car tends
to do more
understeer then, but would this also cause more oversteer when the
physics
come in play ? Any ideas ?
> Time for a European gathering to do more
comparisons!! ;-)
Yeah, what about a training course on Hockenheim
or Nürnburgring (should be
available in english). Also Monza is
available (my favorite) but somewhat far
away for you guys.
Cheers,
Roger
93'3000GT TT
PS: I'll be on holidays for a week till Oct22 (MTB
in Crete) ... See ya then
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Subject: Re: Antifreeze; was Re: Octane and
ECU
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Bob Forrest wrote:
>
>
>
When aluminum corrodes, a thin layer of cloudy white aluminum oxide is
>
formed on the surface of the aluminum. This actually becomes a
>
protectant sheet which prevents further corrosion. Have you heard
this
> from reliable sources, or from local mechanics. I'm just a
bit of a
> doubter on this one, since once the aluminum oxide is created,
corrosion
> can go no further...
Apparently it can. My brother in
law informed me at the family gathering on Turkey Day
(we're a month
earlier for Thanksgiving here) that he'd had a look at an aluminium
block
recently taken down, and a whole bunch of milling had to be done as the
result, of not so
much the oxidation, but of the pits which were eaten
into it.
Darcy
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Oct 14 23:38:06 1998
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From: "Bob
Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Antifreeze; was Re:
Octane and ECU
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:38:25 -0700
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-----Original Message-----From:
wce@bc.sympatico.ca
<wce@bc.sympatico.ca>
|> doubter on this
one, since once the aluminum oxide is created,
corrosion
|> can go no
further...
|
|Apparently it can. My brother in law informed me at the
family
gathering on Turkey Day
|(we're a month earlier for
Thanksgiving here) that he'd had a look at
an aluminium block
|recently
taken down, and a whole bunch of milling had to be done as the
result, of not
so
|much the oxidation, but of the pits which were eaten into
it.
I guess there must be some breakdown of the antifreeze that
causes more
intense effects than simple layer corrosion. Then again,
it's probably
not a purely aluminum block, but probably a complex
heat-tempered
aluminum alloy. It's pretty tough to get pure aluminum to
pit...
Thanks for the info; I think I'll go change my antifreeze, even
though
it's going to be around 80 degrees this weekend... :-)
(Just rubbing
it in...)
Forrest
For unsubscribe info and FAQ,
see our web page at http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Oct 15 08:40:34 1998
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From:
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To:
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Subject: Team3S: Re: Oversteer /
Understeer
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 08:40:42 -0700
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-----Original Message-----From: R.G.
<robby@swissonline.ch>
|Glad you came out of this with ... Style :)
I was able to do some AWD
drifting
|but only with having the foot on the
throttle and the streets pretty
wet !
|Please note : The lowest speed in a
curve should be at the beginning of
it !
A lot of what you guys
are discussing in this thread holds true for
those of us with FWD models
too... If you've got to use your brakes
during a curve, you did it
wrong!
Good discussion.
Forrest
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu
Oct 15 08:55:24 1998
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Subject: Team3S: Re: T-shirts, was re:
Antifreeze; was Re: Octane and ECU
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Bob Forrest wrote:
> -Thanks for the
info; I think I'll go change my antifreeze, even though
> it's going to be
around 80 degrees this weekend... :-) (Just rubbing
> it
in...)
Rubbing what in you say?? Was that sun block? As the housewife
said to her returning
husband, "Here you've been working down in a nice
cool sewer all day, while I've been
slaving over a hot ironing
board".
So, when are your 3S T-Shirts available
Bob??
Darc
>
>
> Forrest
>
> For
unsubscribe info and FAQ, see our web page at
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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From:
"Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re:
T-shirts...
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:14:14 -0700
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-----Original Message-----From:
wce@bc.sympatico.ca
<wce@bc.sympatico.ca>
|So, when are your 3S
T-Shirts available Bob??
I had stopped working on them when I left
3Si; I'll get on the case
first thing next week. I'll also get in touch
with Jeff Crabtree to see
what he's doing with the embroidered versions of
the shirts, if
anything. Everybody seemed to want something different,
and his T-shirt
guy didn't want to do anything with the "red
diamonds" Mitsu logo in
it...
In the meantime, Eric showed me a
design he's using on the "Quickening"
T-shirts for this
weekend... Pretty cool! It was originally a Mitsu ad
composite
with a Stealth & stuff added by some guy on the Dragnet list.
He probably
won't have any left over, but we may want to get him to do a
reorder if
enough folks like them. I'm going to get one even though I'm
not
going...
I'll stay on top of it; hats, too, (even though I know Darc
doesn't wear
them). They don't need them in B.C.-- they never get any
sun up there
anyway... :-)
Forrest
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu
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Date:
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From: Jim Matthews
<matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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R.G. wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
> Haha,
I'm sorry for this but it was a good comparison :) Especially as your
car
> had much more lag than mine (grrrr). [ ... ]
I thought my car
had LESS lag than yours? This is what had us
so confused, since you
have less restrictive exhaust...
-Jim
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden,
Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps
ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
*** 3000GT-Stealth
International (3Si) Member #0030
***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94
Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension,
Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84%
BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark
plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided
brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph
G-Tech
Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: lag
References:
<3624E8F7.95B3BEB3@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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Jim Matthews wrote:
> R.G.
wrote:
> >
> > [ ...
]
> >
> > Haha, I'm sorry for this but it was a good
comparison :) Especially as your car
> > had much more lag than mine
(grrrr). [ ... ]
>
> I thought my car had LESS lag than
yours? This is what had us
> so confused, since you have less
restrictive
exhaust...
>
>
-Jim
Hey Jim;
In my consultations with both of you on which BC to
choose (believe me it was a hard
decision...$$ was the final factor)... in
those consultations, Roger indicated that your
car had less lag in the low
range, and that his picked it (less lag) up in the upper end
where yours
began to loose boost. This make sense??
Darc
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri
Oct 16 03:07:09 1998
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Date: Fri, 16 Oct
1998 20:07:02 +1000
From: andrew clark
<chemist1@ozemail.com.au>
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Hello to every body from sunny Australia!
My name is
Andrew Clark. I'm a pharmacist from Melbourne & I own a polar
white 94
VR4 which I absolutely love.
I look forward to participating in this new
group & hope its a
resounding success!
Cheers
Andrew
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri
Oct 16 06:21:58 1998
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From: "Bob
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To:
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Subject: Team3S: New member(s);
websites...
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 06:18:56 -0700
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-----Original Message-----From: andrew
clark <chemist1@ozemail.com.au>
|Hello to every body from sunny
Australia!
|My name is Andrew Clark. I'm a pharmacist from Melbourne & I
own a
polar
|white 94 VR4 which I absolutely love.
|I look forward to
participating in this new group & hope its a
|resounding
success!
Hey, Andrew, welcome... Looks like we're getting a
pretty good array
from around the world, but you're the first from
Australia. Are there
many Stealth/3000s in Melbourne? I forgot--
do you guys drive on the
wrong side of the road? :-) We've got
lots of Aussie friends here in
San Francisco, but most of them have never
seen a Stealth.
And a BIG welcome to old friend Bob Fontana, owner of the
legendary 570
HP "Green Beast" ('93 VR4), which boasts an
impressive array of mods and
an under-11.5 sec e.t. in the quarter mile (even
in Florida's heat and
humidity). For those of you who have never been
there, his page is at:
http://www.gate.net/~mits/gbeast.html
I'm
putting together a list of links for member pages. We'll mirror
them on
to Eric's 3Si.org website at some
point...
Later,
Forrest
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Oct 16 10:04:05 1998
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From:
"Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: A question about 60k
maintenance...
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 10:04:25 -0700
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Since I don't have to drive to work, I
only drive my Stealth for local
errands and for pleasure trips; living
in the Bay Area, that's not
usually too far away. Our usual 'road
trips' are under 100 miles. I've
only got 17,000 miles on my '94
Stealth...
My question is: since the 60k service is an
approximation of what the
'average' person drives in 5 years (12k miles per
year), should I be
thinking of having the belts replaced and doing that
$1000+ 60k service
at only 20k? That's about the mileage I'll have at
the end of my 5
years. I've had the belts inspected (as well as doing
it myself) and
everything looks almost new in the engine bay, and nothing
leaks, and
I've never had anything go wrong (except the seat belt retractors
and
the almost useless stock cargo cover clips, both of which I've
repaired
myself). The car hardly uses any oil, (I switched to Mobil1
since the
first of the 4 oil changes I've done- due for another), and I've
only
had to add 1/2 QT once after a 1500 mile trip, during which I
traveled
for close to an hour at 100-120 mph.
Should I be concerned,
since she'll be having her 5th birthday soon?
The car never sits for more
than a day or two (except when I travel by
air), and I drive fairly hard once
it warms up. But it always drives
like a dream, and I'd like to keep it
that way. My only mods are K&N
FIPK, resonator removal, Nitto 450
Extreme Performance 225/55R16 (15"
wheels were stock on the Stealth NT
base model, upgraded to 16" aluminum
R/T option), and a -1 degree camber
on the fronts and a -6# difference
in inflation from front to back to
eliminate understeer.
What's the consensus... Should I be thinking
about doing the 60k
service at 5 years, with only 20k
miles???
TIA,
Forrest
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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From: Chris Winkley
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To:
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<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: A question about
60k maintenance...
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 10:30:28 -0700
Organization: ADP
Dealer Services
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Bob...
Personally, having owned three non-daily
drivers with low mileage, I wouldn't invest the $$$ in a mileage
based event
(60K maint) based (instead) on time. UNLESS, there's a time driven factor that
caused them to
create the mileage trigger. For example, rubber deteriorates
with time. I have a thirteen year old motorcycle
with 4K miles on it. The
tires need to be replaced, as the rubber has hardened. I don't know how (or if)
this
applies to timing belts, but that's the only consideration I can
imagine. Mechanical wear and tear is the
result of use (or abuse) and can
(under use conditions) be predicted to be associated with mileage.
I'm
not lucky enough to have a set of shop manuals (I called this week, they said
they've been on backorder
for four months), but often there are time AND
mileage based charts for maintenance. True for 3KGT/Stealths?
I have 30K
miles on Beastie, I will faithfully change fluids on a time based schedule, but
hope to be old and
gray (or at least much older and grayer) before I have to
see 60K maintenance (roughly fifteen years at 4K
miles/year). Let's hope we
can still afford fossil fuel at that point. :-)
Looking
forward...Chris
"Friends don't let friends ride with
me"
1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4
-----Original
Message-----
From: Bob Forrest [SMTP:bf@bobforrest.com]
Sent: Friday,
October 16, 1998 10:04 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Team3S: A question about 60k maintenance...
<major
snip>
What's the consensus... Should I be thinking about doing
the 60k
service at 5 years, with only 20k miles???
TIA,
Forrest
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri
Oct 16 10:59:58 1998
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From: Jim Matthews
<matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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Subject: Re:
Team3S: Re: lag
References: <3624E8F7.95B3BEB3@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
<36252A19.B89724B9@swissonline.ch>
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wce@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:
>
> Hey
Jim;
>
> In my consultations with both of you on which BC to choose
(believe me it was a hard
> decision...$$ was the final factor)... in
those consultations, Roger indicated that your
> car had less lag in the
low range, and that his picked it (less lag) up in the upper end
> where
yours began to loose boost. This make sense??
>
> Darc
My
car had less turbo lag at all RPMs but his was
able to maintain maximum boost
through redline.
The question is why?
-Jim
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden,
Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps
ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
*** 3000GT-Stealth
International (3Si) Member #0030
***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94
Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension,
Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84%
BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark
plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided
brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph
G-Tech
Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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Jim;
My guess, and it's only a guess, are the BC's
involved. Yours may/must have a slightly
quicker response in your setup
which has a more restrictive exhaust, comparitively speaking,
and Roger's
(which holds redline boost) may be slightly slower given his free flowing
exhaust
mods. Back pressure differences??? Roger, are you following
this thread? Your analytical
opinion requested here.
Darc
Jim
Matthews wrote:
> wce@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:
> >
> >
Hey Jim;
> >
> > In my consultations with both of you on which
BC to choose (believe me it was a hard
> > decision...$$ was the final
factor)... in those consultations, Roger indicated that your
> > car
had less lag in the low range, and that his picked it (less lag) up in the upper
end
> > where yours began to loose boost. This make sense??
>
>
> > Darc
>
> My car had less turbo lag at all RPMs but
his was
> able to maintain maximum boost through redline.
> The
question is
why?
>
-Jim
> --
> Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
>
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps ISDN)
>
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
>
> *** 3000GT-Stealth
International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
>
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
> Jet Black '94
Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
> Adjustable Active Suspension,
Adjustable Exhaust System
> K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @
70/84% BADC)
> A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
>
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
> Metal Matrix brake
pads, custom braided brake lines
> Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS
(so far): 166mph
> G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9
mph
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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Subject: Re: Team3S: A question about 60k
maintenance...
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<006d01bdf927$0a66ec40$13eb86cd@BobForrest>
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Hi Bob;
I share your concern, but unless you're
looking at a 10 year interval (which means very
little use, and seals, etc
drying up) I would do it at the mileage increment. Like
yourself, I
have low K's for the car year, and want to insure nothing goes wrong...
but
don't want to get into the 60 k until required. Already I'm shopping for
best prices on
parts (TALL MITSU) and hope to arm wrestle Rich one summer's
day, into overseeing my
installation of the 60 k parts. We're going to have
be our own mechanics with these
babes, as for the most part, dealerships are
using our vehicles for on the job training
of half wits. The more we learn
and share, the better off our cars are, and the happier
the cowboys are :
)
Darc
Bob Forrest wrote:
> Since I don't have to drive
to work, I only drive my Stealth for local
> errands and for pleasure
trips; living in the Bay Area, that's not
> usually too far
away. Our usual 'road trips' are under 100 miles. I've
> only
got 17,000 miles on my '94 Stealth...
>
> My question is:
since the 60k service is an approximation of what the
> 'average' person
drives in 5 years (12k miles per year), should I be
> thinking of having
the belts replaced and doing that $1000+ 60k service
> at only 20k?
That's about the mileage I'll have at the end of my 5
> years. I've
had the belts inspected (as well as doing it myself) and
> everything
looks almost new in the engine bay, and nothing leaks, and
> I've never
had anything go wrong (except the seat belt retractors and
> the almost
useless stock cargo cover clips, both of which I've repaired
>
myself). The car hardly uses any oil, (I switched to Mobil1 since
the
> first of the 4 oil changes I've done- due for another), and I've
only
> had to add 1/2 QT once after a 1500 mile trip, during which I
traveled
> for close to an hour at 100-120 mph.
>
> Should I
be concerned, since she'll be having her 5th birthday soon?
> The car
never sits for more than a day or two (except when I travel by
> air), and
I drive fairly hard once it warms up. But it always drives
> like a
dream, and I'd like to keep it that way. My only mods are K&N
>
FIPK, resonator removal, Nitto 450 Extreme Performance 225/55R16
(15"
> wheels were stock on the Stealth NT base model, upgraded to
16" aluminum
> R/T option), and a -1 degree camber on the fronts and
a -6# difference
> in inflation from front to back to eliminate
understeer.
>
> What's the consensus... Should I be thinking
about doing the 60k
> service at 5 years, with only 20k
miles???
>
> TIA,
>
> Forrest
>
> For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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From:
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To:
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: lag
Date:
Fri, 16 Oct 1998 11:59:42 -0700
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-----Original Message-----From:
wce@bc.sympatico.ca
<wce@bc.sympatico.ca>
|Jim;
|
|My guess,
and it's only a guess, are the BC's involved. Yours may/must
have a
slightly
|quicker response in your setup which has a more restrictive
exhaust,
comparitively speaking,
|and Roger's (which holds redline boost)
may be slightly slower given
his free flowing exhaust
|mods. Back pressure
differences??? Roger, are you following this
thread?
Roger is
vacationing in Crete this week; he may already have
left.
Forrest
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri
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From: Chris Winkley
<cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To:
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: boost
lag
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:07:04 -0700
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Darc...
I believe Roger said he was going to be
offline for a week or so.
I like the thread. Makes me wonder, has anyone
ever compared the technical specifications of the three (or
four) most
popular boost controllers? Not features, technical specs (response time, cycle
time, etc.). These
are little electronic boxes that control (or modify) a
number of other functions (mostly vacuum, I believe).
There's bound to be
differences. Does Roger & Jim have the same units? The question is...did I
end up with
the best? :-)
Looking
forward...Chris
"Friends don't let friends ride with
me"
1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4
-----Original
Message-----
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca [SMTP:wce@bc.sympatico.ca]
Sent:
Friday, October 16, 1998 11:09 AM
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re:
lag
Jim;
My guess, and it's only a guess, are the BC's involved.
Yours may/must have a slightly
quicker response in your setup which has
a more restrictive exhaust, comparitively speaking,
and Roger's (which holds
redline boost) may be slightly slower given his free flowing exhaust
mods.
Back pressure differences??? Roger, are you following this thread? Your
analytical
opinion requested here.
Darc
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri
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From: andrew clark
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Bob Forrest wrote:
>
> Hey, Andrew,
welcome... Looks like we're getting a pretty good array
> from
around the world, but you're the first from Australia. Are there
>
many Stealth/3000s in Melbourne? I forgot-- do you guys drive on
the
> wrong side of the road? :-)
>
There are no
Stealths in Australia only 3000's.There is only 25 of them
although now
people are importing them privately from Japan so the
number may be higher.
Mitsubishi was importing 3000's from Japan only in
the VR4 spec but due to
the price tag about US$85K new, they didn't
manage to sell many. My car is an
original Mitsubishi delivered car.
BTW we drive on the left hand side of the
road, like in Japan.
Cheers
Andrew
Australia
94 VR4
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri
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Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: boost
lag
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Chris Winkley wrote:
>
Darc...
>
>
> I like the thread. Makes me wonder, has anyone
ever compared the technical specifications of the three (or
> four) most
popular boost controllers?
Roger sent me a comparison of Blitz and Apexi
in a point score format, when I was vascillating between choosing
one or the
other. Maybe when he returns you/we could ask him to publish it to the TEAM...I
would, but he
authored it, and it seems a shame that he went to so much
trouble for it to be lost on just my enquirey. He is
running Blitz BTW and
Jim is running a Super Apexi I believe (Apexi of some form for sure). When I
enquired with
Chen at Nexus, he indicated that Apexi had a quicker response
with some cars (I noted Jim's without mentioning
names), but that overall, he
liked and promoted Blitz more, although would and did sell both. BTW Roger's
point
scoring of the two BC's I mentioned was nearly a dead heat with Blitz
pulling a couple more subjective points
from him. I believe it was
something like 77 to 74 points, and he admitted he might score it different were
he
doing it again.
> Not features, technical specs (response time,
cycle time, etc.). These
> are little electronic boxes that control (or
modify) a number of other functions (mostly vacuum, I believe).
> There's
bound to be differences. Does Roger & Jim have the same units? The question
is...did I end up with
> the best? :-)
You end up with the
best if you really like what you have, and if you manage to install and combine
everything
perfectly. Nothing gets better than that. The grass is always
greener until you learn satisfaction.
Darc
P.S. Yo,
Andrew...my niece recently married an Aussie...hell of nice guy..they live there
(Oz) but are showing
up here for Christmas this year. It ought to be a
radical change from turkey on the beach!!! Get pissed and fall
in a
snowbanks.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat
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From: "Bob
Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: "Team3S"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Anyone having list
problems? Please reply!
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 12:09:52
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Mikael seems to be having a problem posting (and I haven't seen
anything
from Rich in days). If anyone else is having difficulty,
please respond
to one of the messages already up on the list, or just drop a
reply to
this email with a response.
I'm attaching the 3Si logo image
just to see if there is a problem with
attachments, as
well...
TIA,
Forrest
------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BDF9C7.0BD5A1C0
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat
Oct 17 12:53:03 1998
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From:
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?= <vr4@bahnhof.se>
To:
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Anyone having
list problems? Please reply!
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 21:52:51
+0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
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=_NextPart_000_01BDFA18.7E443400"
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------
=_NextPart_000_01BDFA18.7E443400
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Hi=20
I'm testing to reply to this and see if
that works.
I receive all mails but everything I post get lost in
cyberspace..
BTW tomorow I shall have a mini mini gathering with Oscar
from the =
Starnet list. Two people and one car !!! He thought it was an
overkill =
to take his car to sweden just to be here 3 days.
:)=20
/Mikael
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Forrest
[SMTP:bf@bobforrest.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 1998 9:10 PM
To:
Team3S
Subject: Team3S: Anyone having list problems? Please
reply!
Mikael seems to be having a problem posting (and I haven't seen
anything
from Rich in days). If anyone else is having difficulty,
please respond
to one of the messages already up on the list, or just drop a
reply to
this email with a response.
I'm attaching the 3Si logo image
just to see if there is a problem with
attachments, as
well...
TIA,
Forrest
<< File: 3SDlogo400.gif
>>
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AAAeAAaACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABUhQAAAQAAAAQAAAA4LjAAAwAHgAggBgAAAAAAwAAA
AAAAAEYAAAAAAYUAAAAAAAALABCACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAOhQAAAAAAAAMAEYAIIAYA
AAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABCFAAAAAAAAAwASgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEYUAAAAAAAAD
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AAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeACaACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA3hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgAn
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AwANNP03AACHkg==
------
=_NextPart_000_01BDFA18.7E443400--
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From
owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Oct 17 13:01:37 1998
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From:
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?= <vr4@bahnhof.se>
To:
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: FW: Hesitation/Knocks
(The lost mail)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 22:01:28 +0200
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Hi
This mail have been lost in
cyberspace for a few days,
This is the third time I send this mail to the
list, let's hope it work this time.
I know that this thread died a
long time ago but this maybe interesting anyway.
-----Original
Message-----
From: Mikael Åkesson [SMTP:vr4@bahnhof.se]
Sent:
Wednesday, October 14, 1998 8:45 AM
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE:
Hesitation/Knocks
Interesting post Roger.
The car I had before my
VR-4 was a Celica GT-4 with AWD and turbo. I had
alot of mods done to this
car and my biggest problem was that the ignition
was retarded very much when
there was a knock.
The cure for this was to add water !! Yes that's
right. I bought a little
12vpump and connected that to a bottle of water and
got a small nossle
(right word?) and mounted that in the intake. I connected
the pump to a
adjustable presure contact (solenoid). I tuned the system to
start spraying
water at 0.9 bar. This allowed me to go from 1.05 to 1.3 bar
without any
knock at all. (And that's a BIG gain in power)
The water
makes the combustion chamber much cooler and that prevents the
spontanious
explosion in the chamber. (the gases gets so hot that they self
explode
during the compression cycle and that makes the knocking sound)
Remember that
this is extremely dangerous for the engine, for the piston
it's like hitting
a wall when they are supposed to go up.
Ofcourse this is a
"ugly" way to cure a problem that is caused by bad
construction in
the first place.
For more info www.aquamist.co.uk/
Hope this
help
/Mikael /soon with water injection??
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat
Oct 17 13:02:09 1998
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From: "Bob
Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Anyone having
list problems? Please reply!
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 12:59:34
-0700
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-----Original Message-----From: Mikael
Åkesson <vr4@bahnhof.se>
>>>I'm testing to reply to this
and see if that works.
I receive all mails but everything I post get lost in
cyberspace..
BTW tomorow I shall have a mini mini gathering with Oscar from
the
Starnet list. Two people and one car !!! He thought it was an
overkill
to take his car to sweden just to be here 3 days. :)
<<<
The message came through just fine! Probably just
an internet burp...
Have a wonderful gathering with
Oscar...
Forrest
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Oct 17 14:53:07 1998
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Date: Sat, 17 Oct 1998 14:51:09
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To:
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Anyone having list
problems? Please reply!
References:
<004501bdfa01$c1ed2f20$0beb86cd@BobForrest>
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Hi Bob;
There is no problem receiving or with the
attached logo at this location.
Darc
Bob Forrest
wrote:
> Mikael seems to be having a problem posting (and I haven't
seen anything
> from Rich in days). If anyone else is having
difficulty, please respond
> to one of the messages already up on the
list, or just drop a reply to
> this email with a
response.
>
> I'm attaching the 3Si logo image just to see if there
is a problem with
> attachments, as well...
>
>
TIA,
>
> Forrest
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Name: 3SDlogo400.gif
>
3SDlogo400.gif Type: GIF Image
(image/gif)
>
Encoding: base64
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat
Oct 17 17:20:19 1998
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Date:
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From: Rich
<rleroy@pacifier.com>
Organization: ...
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Subject: Team3S: NEW 95 RT/TT For
Sale
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All:
I stopped in at Ranier Dodge
in Olympia, Washington yesterday. They
have a NEW (never titled) 95
RT/TT for sale. It is red, 18" chromies,
Yoko tires, ALL
options. 4550 miles on the odo. If someone is looking
for a car
that has a full warranty (and can be bought with the extended
as well, as the
buyer would be the 1st owner), here's one for ya.
This car was up on one
of those racks out at the front of the dealer.
It caught my eye, which is
why I stopped. The salesman told me that
they are looking at $30k for
the car, so that tells me that they should
be willing to deal.
If
someone is interested in it, call the dealer direct (ask directory
assistance
for the number) to get any further specifics on the car. I
could be
persuaded to go back up there and take it for a spin for a
SERIOUS buyer ....
cash donations accepted. :-)
Sorry I haven't had time to check mail
the last couple of days - been
awfully busy. Hope to answer all who
have mailed me tomorrow - if I
survive the day
;-).
Rich
Emerald Green 94 R/T
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Oct 17 22:23:59 1998
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From: "Ron-a-roid" <rtetetet@email.msn.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Hello team
3s
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 01:27:27 -0400
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Got an invite to join your list and wanted to say hello.
I'll be just
hanging out for a while to catch the flavor of things because
I'm coming in
from starnet where things are a little out of hand and I
want this to work.
Hope everyone is well and happy.
Ron
93 SL Dark
Grey Metallic
Full lock brakes (for Now:-( )
flaky windows
K&n
FIPK
Valentine One
-----Original Message-----
From: Rich
<rleroy@pacifier.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Saturday, October 17, 1998 8:20
PM
Subject: Team3S: NEW 95 RT/TT For
Sale
>All:
>
>I stopped in at Ranier Dodge in Olympia,
Washington yesterday. They
>have a NEW (never titled) 95 RT/TT for
sale. It is red, 18" chromies,
>Yoko tires, ALL options.
4550 miles on the odo. If someone is looking
>for a car that has a
full warranty (and can be bought with the extended
>as well, as the buyer
would be the 1st owner), here's one for ya.
>
>This car was up on
one of those racks out at the front of the dealer.
>It caught my eye,
which is why I stopped. The salesman told me that
>they are looking
at $30k for the car, so that tells me that they should
>be willing to
deal.
>
>If someone is interested in it, call the dealer direct (ask
directory
>assistance for the number) to get any further specifics on the
car. I
>could be persuaded to go back up there and take it for a
spin for a
>SERIOUS buyer .... cash donations accepted.
:-)
>
>Sorry I haven't had time to check mail the last couple of
days - been
>awfully busy. Hope to answer all who have mailed me
tomorrow - if I
>survive the day
;-).
>
>Rich
>Emerald Green 94 R/T
>For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat
Oct 17 22:44:07 1998
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From:
"Ron-a-roid" <rtetetet@email.msn.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: TEST REPLY
Date:
Sun, 18 Oct 1998 01:33:49 -0400
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A- OK ON MY SYSTEM.
RON
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun
Oct 18 16:59:26 1998
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From: "Bob
Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: "Team3S"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Quickening II - first
report...
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 16:58:39 -0700
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Welcome and "congrats!" to
Gregg Couture, just (proudly) back from the
Quickening; two dozen cars
participated from as far away as Tennessee...
He won the coveted "Best
Overall Modification" prize for his Red '95
3000GT for the second year
in a row... Sounds like it was a blast...
BTW, if you didn't know,
Gregg has THE web page for how to care for a
car. He's been doing
detailing for 4 yrs now. Find "Gregg's Guide to a
Clean Ride"
on his website: http://members.tripod.com/gcouture .
The
website also has a page where you can buy his weatherproof vinyl
Stealth and
3000GT side-window labels (I've got the silver ones on my
Stealth, and they
look GREAT!).
I wish I could've joined you guys for Quickening
II... ALMOST made it
happen. See you next year, I hope!
:-)
Forrest
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt
Sun Oct 18 17:56:40 1998
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Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
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Thanks for the welcome, Bob!
The quickening
WAS a blast -and many thanks go out to everybody who helped set
this up this
awesome event! Eric Lotter, Hyannis Mitsubishi, Chien at Nexus,
and
everybody who attended should be praised for their dedication, time and
hard
work. I'm sure more on the quickening will be said soon enough.
I'll
hopefully have pics and stories up on my site very shortly.
I'm
happy to now be a member of what seems to be the beginnings of a
"higher
class" list dedicated to the 3/S family. Hopefully I
can contribute some
worthy posts to the list - and I look forward to finally
reading some worthy
posts from you all as well!
Gregg
Couture
http://members.tripod.com/gcouture
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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To:
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Subject: Re: Team3S: FW: Hesitation/Knocks
(The lost mail)
References:
<01BDFA19.B151DAE0@pm2-27.bahnhof.se>
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stealth-3000gt
Hi Mikael;
Can you post with the httlp// in your
address so we can double click and go there
instantly, rather than type
the location and possibly comitt a typo and not get there
at all...or find
that perhaps a typo was inherit in the address and still not get
there...have
to love that blue hyperscript!!
Your information on water injection is
real interesting and it may prove a godsend to
those who are experiencing
knocking with their TT's. Getting to the heart of your water
injection
application will be most appreciated by some/many I am
sure.
Darc
Victoria, B.C. ....TT Stealth
Mikael
Åkesson wrote:
> Hi
>
> This mail have been lost in
cyberspace for a few days,
>
> This is the third time I send this
mail to the list, let's hope it work this time.
>
> I know that this
thread died a long time ago but this maybe interesting
anyway.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
Mikael Åkesson [SMTP:vr4@bahnhof.se]
> Sent: Wednesday,
October 14, 1998 8:45 AM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
Subject: RE:
Hesitation/Knocks
>
> Interesting post Roger.
>
> The
car I had before my VR-4 was a Celica GT-4 with AWD and turbo. I had
>
alot of mods done to this car and my biggest problem was that the
ignition
> was retarded very much when there was a knock.
>
>
The cure for this was to add water !! Yes that's right. I bought a
little
> 12vpump and connected that to a bottle of water and got a small
nossle
> (right word?) and mounted that in the intake. I connected the
pump to a
> adjustable presure contact (solenoid). I tuned the system to
start spraying
> water at 0.9 bar. This allowed me to go from 1.05 to 1.3
bar without any
> knock at all. (And that's a BIG gain in
power)
>
> The water makes the combustion chamber much cooler and
that prevents the
> spontanious explosion in the chamber. (the gases gets
so hot that they self
> explode during the compression cycle and that
makes the knocking sound)
> Remember that this is extremely dangerous for
the engine, for the piston
> it's like hitting a wall when they are
supposed to go up.
>
> Ofcourse this is a "ugly" way to
cure a problem that is caused by bad
> construction in the first
place.
>
> For more info www.aquamist.co.uk/
>
> Hope
this help
>
> /Mikael /soon with water injection??
>
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 23:53:21
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From: Jeff Crabtree <wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com>
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Well I
just signed up here(thanks Bob for bringing me onboard). Just to
give
those of you that have been absent from starnet a little news,
here's some
headlines.
* status quo at starnet....now they're
arguing about Jeep Cherokees
* I may need to replace the engine
in my car...had a little run in
with a LOUD knock,
but I threw some oil in and the knock has gotten
quieter.
* The embroidered merchandise might be one step closer
to making it
to the table. One of the guys on
starnet has written a letter to
Mitsu and we're
waiting to hear back.
* I'm going to File a lawsuit against the
place here in St. Louis
that recovered my seats in
my car(Southtown Auto Upholstry). They
did a
total botch job on my seats and then threw me off
their
property when I demanded my money
returned.
So, hopefully I can lend and borrow as productively from this
list as I
have up until recently from Starnet.
--
-Jeff
Crabtree
'91 R/T Turbo
#499
St. Louis,
MO
--------------15D845FF48E5C793F2561CEB
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<HTML>
Well
I just signed up here(thanks Bob for bringing me onboard). Just
to
give those of you that have been absent from starnet a little news,
here's
some headlines.
<BR>
<UL>
<LI>
status
quo at starnet....now they're arguing about Jeep
Cherokees</LI>
<LI>
I may need to replace the engine in my
car...had a little run in with a
LOUD knock, but I threw some oil in and the
knock has gotten quieter.</LI>
<LI>
The embroidered
merchandise might be one step closer to making it to the
table. One
of the guys on starnet has written a letter to Mitsu and
we're waiting to
hear back.</LI>
<LI>
I'm going to File a lawsuit against
the place here in St. Louis that recovered
my seats in my car(Southtown Auto
Upholstry). They did a total botch
job on my seats and then threw
me off their property when I demanded my
money
returned.</LI>
</UL>
So, hopefully I can lend and borrow as
productively from this list as I
have up until recently from
Starnet.
<P>--
<BR>-Jeff
Crabtree
<BR> '91 R/T Turbo
#499
<BR>
St. Louis,
MO
<BR> </HTML>
--------------15D845FF48E5C793F2561CEB--
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 19 09:52:23 1998
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From: Chris Winkley
<cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To:
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Welcome to
Ron
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:50:19 -0700
Organization: ADP Dealer
Services
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Ron...
WELCOME!!!
I believe we can manage to
keep this list free from flames and noise. I, personally, have learned a lot
about
our cars from the technical experts on the starnet list, and hope to
see them all come over and create a
technical, sharing forum.
This is
not a 3S question, but I see you have a V1 detector (so do I). Have you had any
experience beating a
lidar ticket in court?
Looking
forward...Chris
"Friends don't let friends ride with
me"
1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4
-----Original
Message-----
From: Ron-a-roid [SMTP:rtetetet@email.msn.com]
Sent:
Saturday, October 17, 1998 10:27 PM
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Hello team 3s
Got an
invite to join your list and wanted to say hello. I'll be just
hanging out
for a while to catch the flavor of things because I'm coming in
from starnet
where things are a little out of hand and I want this to work.
Hope
everyone is well and happy.
Ron
93 SL Dark Grey Metallic
Full lock
brakes (for Now:-( )
flaky windows
K&n FIPK
Valentine
One
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 19 10:00:18 1998
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From: Chris Winkley
<cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To:
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Welcome
Jeff...
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:58:15 -0700
Organization: ADP Dealer
Services
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Jeff...
WELCOME!!!
Sorry to hear about your
engine, have you had a diagnostic run? I got my boost controller programmed
correctly (finally), and it's sunny today so Beastie is out on the roads.
WOW, what a difference it makes. I
set it at 1.1 bar with the "overtake
boost" at 1.3 bar. I'm afraid to punch that button, the engine already
roars at 1.1 bar!!! From what I've heard, at 1.3 bar I'm likely to get fuel
cut or knocking, neither of which
can be good for the engine. I just read
the post about water injection, that's an old trick they used to use
with
carbs (anyone remember carbs? :-)). Wonder what the risks are with our
engines?
Great news on embroidered merchandise (shirts?), I'm also
eagerly awaiting Bob running some screened
versions.
Looking
forward...Chris
"Friends don't let friends ride with
me"
1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4
-----Original
Message-----
From: Jeff Crabtree [SMTP:wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com]
Sent:
Sunday, October 18, 1998 9:53 PM
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Hey guys!!
Well I just
signed up here (thanks Bob for bringing me onboard). Just to
give those
of you that have been absent from starnet a little news,
here's some
headlines.
* status quo at starnet....now they're
arguing about Jeep Cherokees
* I may need to replace the engine
in my car...had a little run in
with a LOUD knock,
but I threw some oil in and the knock has gotten
quieter.
* The embroidered merchandise might be one step closer
to making it
to the table. One of the guys on
starnet has written a letter to
Mitsu and we're
waiting to hear back.
* I'm going to File a lawsuit against the
place here in St. Louis
that recovered my seats in
my car(Southtown Auto Upholstry). They
did a
total botch job on my seats and then threw me off
their
property when I demanded my money
returned.
So, hopefully I can lend and borrow as productively from this
list as I
have up until recently from Starnet.
--
-Jeff
Crabtree
'91 R/T Turbo
#499
St. Louis,
MO
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 19 10:19:13 1998
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From: Chris Winkley
<cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To:
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Welcome
Gregg...
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:17:09 -0700
Organization: ADP Dealer
Services
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Gregg...
WELCOME!!!
I was unable to get into
your mods page, I think it's my browser (in MS Outlook). Can you send me a list
of
what you've done to that red beauty? Thanks.
And thanks to Bob for
connecting with you and recommending your site. :-)
Looking
forward...Chris
"Friends don't let friends ride with
me"
1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4
-----Original
Message-----
From: Bob Forrest [SMTP:bf@bobforrest.com]
Sent: Sunday,
October 18, 1998 4:59 PM
To: Team3S
Subject: Team3S: Quickening II - first
report...
<snip>
BTW, if you didn't know, Gregg has THE web
page for how to care for a
car. He's been doing detailing for 4 yrs
now. Find "Gregg's Guide to a
Clean Ride" on his
website: http://members.tripod.com/gcouture .
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 19 12:13:20 1998
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From: "Todd
Shelton" <tds@brightok.net>
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Subject: Team3S: Three Cheers for
Bob
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 14:16:43 -0500
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Three CHEERS for Bob and a new
and
much improved (I bet) List.
Thanks for alleviating the torturous
postings
we've had to endure on Starnet.
Now if I can just find that option to
change
my default to text only composition. [no html/no rich text]
J Young
isn't going to like that! :(
- tds
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998
23:05:07 +0200
From: Mike Chapleski
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Subject: Team3S: Tweaking the Blitz
DSBC
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OK,
Just signed up so lets see if there are
any pros out there.
I have the Blitz DSBC installed in
a '95 Stealth RT TT. I had
originally though there was only one
adjustment the "ratio", which is a
0-100 scale of the total amount
of boost the system is capable of. I
had originally set it at 65 and
was getting pretty a constant 14-15 psi
of boost in the peak power range of
3500-5500 RPM. However I would get
overboost to about 16.3.
It turned out the gain was set at 5.
So now I finally
reinstall the boost controller after getting to
Germany and try adjusting the
"gain". I set it to 32-gain and 45-ratio,
which is what
Kermit said he and Roger G. were using. At this setting,
I get about 14
psi when it levels out but it peaks at 18-19 psi. I am
very leery of
any boost above 15 psi, so what I want is to avoid
overboost but maintain
14-15 psi through the power range. Last night I
turned the ratio up to
80. At 70 mph in 3rd I floored it and boost
jumped to 22, before I let
out the gas. It did not look like the DSBC
was even working the
wastegates. So my questions are:
What is
"gain?"
What are the other functions on the DSBC? I
have the installation
instructions, which I got from Chein, but the Japanese
instructions have
many pages of what each function does, that are missing in
my
instructions.
What happens if you run 19 psi of boost on the stock
injectors and fuel
pump? Or more appropriately, what boost do you need
to get a high
output fuel pump and injectors?
And which would you buy
first?
--------------E64AA5ACA6A2E0822761D674
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<HTML>
OK,
<BR> Just
signed up so lets see if there are any pros
out
there.
<P> I have the Blitz DSBC
installed in a '95 Stealth
RT TT. I had originally though there was
only one adjustment the
"ratio", which is a 0-100 scale of the
total amount of boost the system
is capable of. I had originally
set it at 65 and was getting pretty
a constant 14-15 psi of boost in the peak
power range of 3500-5500 RPM.
However I would get overboost to
about 16.3. It turned out
the gain was set at
5.
<P> So now I finally reinstall the
boost controller after
getting to Germany and try adjusting the
"gain". I set it to 32-gain
and 45-ratio, which is what
Kermit said he and Roger G. were using.
At this setting, I get
about 14 psi when it levels out but it peaks at
18-19 psi. I am
very leery of any boost above 15 psi, so what I want
is to avoid overboost
but maintain 14-15 psi through the power range.
Last night I turned
the ratio up to 80. At 70 mph in 3rd I floored
it and boost jumped
to 22, before I let out the gas. It did not look
like the DSBC was
even working the wastegates. So my questions
are:
<P><B>What is
"gain?"</B>
<P><B>What are the other
functions on the DSBC?</B> I have
the installation
instructions, which I got from Chein, but the Japanese
instructions have many
pages of what each function does, that are missing
in my
instructions.
<P>What happens if you run 19 psi of boost on the
stock injectors and fuel
pump? Or more appropriately, <B>what
boost do you need to get a high
output fuel pump and
injectors?</B>
<P><B>And which would you buy
first?</B></HTML>
--------------E64AA5ACA6A2E0822761D674--
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 19 17:41:06 1998
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Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 17:32:57
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Tweaking the Blitz
DSBC
References: <362BA983.3928229@ibm.net>
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Mike Chapleski wrote:
>
>
OK,
> Just signed up so lets see if there are any
pros out there.
>
> I have the Blitz DSBC
installed in a '95 Stealth RT TT. I had
> originally though there
was only one adjustment the "ratio", which is
> a 0-100 scale of
the total amount of boost the system is capable of.
> I had originally set
it at 65 and was getting pretty a constant 14-15
> psi of boost in the
peak power range of 3500-5500 RPM. However I
> would get overboost
to about 16.3. It turned out the gain was set at
> 5.
>
> So now I finally reinstall the boost controller
after getting to
> Germany and try adjusting the "gain". I
set it to 32-gain and
> 45-ratio, which is what Kermit said he and Roger
G. were using. At
> this setting, I get about 14 psi when it levels
out but it peaks at
> 18-19 psi. I am very leery of any boost above
15 psi, so what I want
> is to avoid overboost but maintain 14-15 psi
through the power range.
> Last night I turned the ratio up to 80.
At 70 mph in 3rd I floored it
> and boost jumped to 22, before I let out
the gas. It did not look
> like the DSBC was even working the
wastegates. So my questions are:
>
> What is
"gain?"
>
> What are the other functions on the
DSBC? I have the installation
> instructions, which I got from
Chein, but the Japanese instructions
> have many pages of what each
function does, that are missing in my
> instructions.
>
>
What happens if you run 19 psi of boost on the stock injectors and
> fuel
pump? Or more appropriately, what boost do you need to get a
> high
output fuel pump and injectors?
>
> And which would you buy
first?
Hi Mike;
Our house resident Blitz expert, Roger, is on
holidays in Crete, so
unless someone who justcame in the door who is equally
as compitent with
this BC wants to jump in, you' have to wait a couple of
days for advice.
It'll be worth it , as Roger has been through his car and
mods, from A
to Z, and professional doesn't get any more professional. Now if
you
were running Apexi or Greddy, those experts are here too, and have
yet
to take their vacation in Crete :)
Darc
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 19 18:20:16 1998
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From: "Todd D
Shelton" <tds@brightok.net>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Tweaking the
Blitz DSBC
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 20:20:09 -0500
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Well I'm not a Blitz boost controller
expert but
then again I'm not off in Crete either :)
However I would like
to say that you should
consider yourself lucky that you are able to
get
19psi from your stock turbos. A lot of us
were never able to get that
much boost out of the
stock turbos and it seems that only the users of
the
Blitz boost controller have seen pressure readings
that high from the
stock turbos. I don't believe that
you will max out the available fuel
with the stock
turbos but it would be safer to have the capability
to at
least monitor EGT's if you want to run in this range.
There have been enough
modified S/3K's running
13g's with the stock fuel pump and injectors that
I
wouldn't be too worried about leaning out but I would
recommend
monitoring EGT's and NOT running at
19psi for long periods of time on the
autobahn.
Considering that not many have been able to
achieve those levels
of boost with the stock turbos
this is somewhat of a unknown. Roger has
run above
1 bar with stock turbos/Blitz but was experiencing
some
detonation while dynotesting above 1.1 bar.
-
tds
http://www.brightok.net/~tds
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Chapleski
<mike.chapleski@ibm.net>
To: Team3S
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Monday,
October 19, 1998 4:06 PM
Subject: Team3S: Tweaking the
Blitz DSBC
What happens if you run 19 psi of boost
on the stock injectors and fuel
pump? Or more appropriately, what boost
do you need to get a high output
fuel pump and
injectors?
And which would you buy
first?
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 19 19:38:41 1998
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Welcome Gregg...
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In a message dated 10/19/98 1:20:01 PM Eastern Daylight
Time,
cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com writes:
<< I was unable to get
into your mods page, I think it's my browser (in MS
Outlook). Can you send me
a list of
what you've done to that red beauty? Thanks.
>>
Hey Chris,
Actually - its not your browser....I haven't
had any nice pics of my car and
mods scanned in yet, so I haven't bothered to
put anything up on the site yet.
Here is a list of everything done to the
car. Remember - it's a '95
Base
model!
Modifications:
Engine:
-K&N FIPK Open
Element Air Filter
-Removal of Resonator
Stereo:
-Pioneer KEH-P7400
Fold Down Cassette Deck w/ remote
-Pioneer DEQ-7200 Graphic 15-band
Equalizer w/ DSP
-Pioneer CDX-P610 6-disk CD changer in glove box
-Eclipse
8262 6 ½" Coaxial door speakers
-Polk Audio ¾" EX2500
Tweeters in Dash
-Kicker 12" Solo-Baric Subwoofer in Sealed
Enclosure
-Precision Power Sedona Series 30W x 4 amp running fronts and
rears
-Precision Power Sedona Series 50W x 2 amp running
subwoofer
Alarm System:
-Excalibur AL-700 with Varad Scanners VS3000
LED
Lighting:
-Diamond Blue 9006 80W Low Beam Bulbs
-Catz XLO
Hyper-White 70W Dichroic Fog Lights
Miscellaneous after-market
items:
-After-market Charcoal Leather from Classic Soft Trims
-After-market Landau Power Sunroof
-Factory 18" VR-4 Chrome Rims
wrapped w/ BFG Comp T/A ZR's
-Two Tone 120dB Air Horns
-Die Hard Gold
900cca Battery
-Mitsubishi Seatbelt Covers
-RÄZO Carbon Fiber Racing
Pedals
-Cell Phone
Phew - thats it for now. Again - i'll
have some pics posted very soon
(hopefully) so you can check it all out
yourself!
Thanks for the welcome,
Gregg
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 19 22:14:31 1998
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From: "Ron-a-roid"
<rtetetet@email.msn.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: VR4 check
list
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 01:18:01 -0400
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OK guys, I'm making the plunge
and need the fine points to look for. =
Found a 95 VR4 and I'm going to look
at Thursday or so to... most likely =
buy it. The 93SL I have is great but I
guess I want _REALLY_ great. I =
also have never cared for FWD. Besides
crunches, bends, shock leaks, =
tire wear, etc, where are the red flag zones
on a VR4?
=20
Anxious and
excited,
Ron-a-roid
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000
size=3D2>OK guys, I'm making the plunge =
and need
the=20
fine points to look for. Found a 95 VR4 and I'm
going to look at =
Thursday or=20
so to... most likely
buy it. The 93SL I have is great but I guess I
=
want=20
_REALLY_ great. I also have never cared for
FWD. Besides crunches, =
bends,=20
shock leaks, tire
wear, etc, where are the red flag zones on a=20
VR4?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
color=3D#000000
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Anxious and
=
excited,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
color=3D#000000=20
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For
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue
Oct 20 03:04:46 1998
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From:
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Subject: Team3S: Test Please
delete
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:04:07 +0200
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Hi I'm just testing to see if this
works.
/Mikael
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue
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From:
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To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Tweaking the
Blitz DSBC
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:16:04 +0200
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Hi Mike and Welcome to the PRO list :)
=20
I use
the Blitz DSBC and I'm very pleased with it.
=20
Ok you have the Ratio and
that is the value that changes the actuall =
boost. You can also set four
different ratios. This is very nice when =
for example running in the autumn
when the outside temparature changes =
from frost to warm on the same day.
The lower temperature will make the =
boost rise and you will probably get
fuel cuts if you don't lower the =
ratio. My ration for the 4 different
"programs" are 44, 47, 50, 53. I =
used to use 50 or 53 for ratio
but after I used some engine flush in the =
oil I use 44 or 47 to get the
same boost as I had before. (great stuff)=20
=20
The gain helps the boost
to pick up faster. My gain is set to ~45.
=20
The thing you have to do is
to turn the left knob until the display =
changes from green to red and you
see "warn" in the display. Then use =
the right knob to set the
boost that you want to have (highest). I =
recommend 1.05. Then puch the left
knob and you will be able to tune =
what the Blitz shall do when reaching
1.05. I have mine set to lower the =
boost by .1 bar for one second. This
will allow me to stay at 15 PSI of =
boost all the way to the RPM limiter
!!!! No other boost controller will =
do that. (that I heard
about)
=20
You can also set scramble mode but I haven't used this feature
because I =
feel that my system is working 100% anyway. So I think that would
just =
make things more complicated.
=20
You will not have any use for
higher boost than 1.15 bar because the =
engine will then produce knock and
that will retard the ignition and the =
power will get lost. On first and
second gear you maybe can go with some =
overboost without loosing power due
to ignition retard but on the higher =
gears the engine will loose more power
than you gain with the higher =
boost.
=20
Please note that we all have
used very different settings on our Blitz =
controllers so you must test what
is best for your car.
=20
Hope this helps (if not then go visit Roger in
Switzerland and he will =
tune it for you)
=20
Mikael
http://www.bahnhof.se/~vr4
-----Ursprungligt
meddelande-----
Fr=E5n: Mike Chapleski
<mike.chapleski@ibm.net>
Till: Team3S
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Datum: den 19
oktober 1998 23:04
=C4mne: Team3S: Tweaking the Blitz
DSBC
=20
=20
OK,=20
Just signed up so lets see
if there are any pros out
there.=20
I have the Blitz DSBC
installed in a '95 Stealth RT TT. I had =
originally though there was
only one adjustment the "ratio", which is a =
0-100 scale of the
total amount of boost the system is capable of. I =
had originally set
it at 65 and was getting pretty a constant 14-15 psi =
of boost in the peak
power range of 3500-5500 RPM. However I would get =
overboost to about
16.3. It turned out the gain was set at
5.=20
So now I finally
reinstall the boost controller after getting to =
Germany and try adjusting
the "gain". I set it to 32-gain and 45-ratio, =
which is what
Kermit said he and Roger G. were using. At this setting, =
I get about
14 psi when it levels out but it peaks at 18-19 psi. I am =
very leery
of any boost above 15 psi, so what I want is to avoid =
overboost but
maintain 14-15 psi through the power range. Last night I =
turned the
ratio up to 80. At 70 mph in 3rd I floored it and boost =
jumped to 22,
before I let out the gas. It did not look like the DSBC =
was even
working the wastegates. So my questions are:=20
What is "gain?"=20
What are the other
functions on the DSBC? I have the installation =
instructions,
which I got from Chein, but the Japanese instructions have =
many pages of
what each function does, that are missing in my
=
instructions.=20
What happens if you run 19 psi
of boost on the stock injectors and =
fuel pump? Or more appropriately,
what boost do you need to get a high =
output fuel pump and
injectors?=20
And which would you buy
first?=20
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hi Mike
and Welcome to the PRO
list=20
:)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>I use the Blitz DSBC and I'm very pleased
with=20
it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>Ok you have the Ratio and that is the value that =
changes
the=20
actuall boost. You can also set four different ratios. This is very
nice =
when=20
for example running in the autumn when the outside
temparature changes =
from=20
frost to warm on the same day. The lower
temperature will make the boost =
rise=20
and you will probably get fuel
cuts if you don't lower the ratio. My =
ration for=20
the 4 different
"programs" are 44, 47, 50, 53. I used to use =
50 or
53=20
for ratio but after I used some engine flush in the oil I use 44 or 47
=
to get=20
the same boost as I had before. (great stuff)
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>The gain helps the boost to pick up faster. My gain =
is set
to=20
~45.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>The thing you have to do is to turn the left knob =
until
the=20
display changes from green to red and you see "warn"
in the =
display.=20
Then use the right knob to set the boost that you
want to have =
(highest). I=20
recommend 1.05. Then puch the left knob and
you will be able to tune =
what the=20
Blitz shall do when reaching 1.05.
I have mine set to lower the boost by =
.1 bar=20
for one second. This
will allow me to stay at 15 PSI of boost all the =
way to the=20
RPM
limiter !!!! No other boost controller will do that. (that I
heard=20
about)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>You can also set scramble mode but I haven't used =
this
feature=20
because I feel that my system is working 100% anyway. So I think
that =
would just=20
make things more
complicated.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>You will not have any use for higher boost than 1.15
=
bar=20
because the engine will then produce knock and that will retard
the =
ignition and=20
the power will get lost. On first and second gear
you maybe can go with =
some=20
overboost without loosing power due to
ignition retard but on the higher =
gears=20
the engine will loose more
power than you gain with the
higher=20
boost.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>Please note that we all have used very different =
settings
on=20
our Blitz controllers so you must test what is best for your
=
car.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>Hope this helps (if not then go visit Roger in =
Switzerland
and=20
he will tune it for
you)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>Mikael
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.bahnhof.se/~vr4">http://www.bahnhof.se/~vr4</A></FONT>=
</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT:
=
5px">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial
size=3D2><B>-----Ursprungligt=20
meddelande-----</B><BR><B>Från: </B>Mike
Chapleski <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:mike.chapleski@ibm.net">mike.chapleski@ibm.net</A>><BR>=
<B>Till:=20
</B>Team3S <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com">stealth-3000gt@list.sirius=
.com</A>><BR><B>Datum:=20
</B>den 19 oktober 1998 23:04<BR><B>Ämne:
</B>Team3S: Tweaking =
the=20
Blitz
DSBC<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>OK,
<BR> Just =
signed up
so=20
lets see if there are any pros out
there.=20
<P> I have
the Blitz DSBC installed in a '95 =
Stealth RT=20
TT. I had originally though there was only one adjustment
the=20
"ratio", which is a 0-100 scale
of the total amount of =
boost the=20
system is capable
of. I had originally set it at 65 and was
=
getting=20
pretty a constant 14-15 psi of boost in
the peak power range of =
3500-5500=20
RPM.
However I would get overboost to about 16.3.
=
It=20
turned out the gain was set at
5.=20
<P> So now I
finally reinstall the boost =
controller after=20
getting to Germany and try adjusting the "gain". I
=
set it to=20
32-gain and 45-ratio, which is what
Kermit said he and Roger G. were =
using. At
this setting, I get about 14 psi when it levels out =
but
it=20
peaks at 18-19 psi. I am very leery of any
boost above 15 psi, =
so what=20
I want is to avoid
overboost but maintain 14-15 psi through the =
power=20
range. Last night I turned the ratio up to 80. At 70 mph
=
in 3rd=20
I floored it and boost jumped to 22, before
I let out the gas. =
It did=20
not look like
the DSBC was even working the wastegates. So
my=20
questions are:=20
<P><B>What is
"gain?"</B>=20
<P><B>What are the other functions on the
DSBC?</B> I =
have the=20
installation instructions, which I got from Chein, but the
Japanese=20
instructions have many pages of what each
function does, that are =
missing in=20
my
instructions.=20
<P>What happens if you run 19 psi
of boost on the stock injectors =
and fuel=20
pump? Or more appropriately, <B>what boost do you need to get
=
a high=20
output fuel pump and
injectors?</B>=20
<P><B>And which would
you buy first?</B>
=
</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_024A_01BDFC23.68E5FDC0--
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subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue
Oct 20 05:11:53 1998
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From: Bob Fontana
<bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: "'Stealth List'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Green Beast status
update (long)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 08:11:31 -0400
Organization: Security
Technologies Group, Inc.
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Hi gang,
First of all, I apologize for using a
Microsoft Outlook mail client.
Don't worry, I didn't sell out -- Unix still
does rule.
I have gotten a lot of private e-mails from people over the
last
several months who have kept me up with the major events happening
in
the Stealth3000 world. Thanks to all of you for doing that.
One
thing's for sure, you guys are all getting faster and faster and my
motor's
sitting there half-built. Obviously, from the time slips
VR4Power and
Aso8 are getting, there's more than one way to skin a cat!
You have a car
with a stock '96 ECU and therefore no VPC and you have
a car with a '91 ECU
using the "conventional" VPC. One wonders
whether fuel is an
issue at all.
Roger Gerl, I have been over your site and will be waiting
your test
results as you add fuel to the equation. I speak for all of
us when
I say "thanks for sharing!" This is the empirical
information we
need. It sounds like the technician has a lot of
experience, too,
so I hope you avail yourself of it.
Now, about my
car. The reason I took the motor apart was to find
the source of a bad
oil leak. Those of you who remember the car
at Temple in late 96 might
have remembered how the bottom of
the car was simply *coated* with oil.
The oil leak showed up in
the spring of 96 after Delray Mitsubishi rebuilt
the motor, yada,
yada, yada. I was using 1 quart of oil every 400
miles. I kept
replacing rear main seals since there appeared to be oil
coming
from there. Clutches (yes, even my Broward disk) kept
getting
contaminated with oil, keeping me from getting the grip I
needed.
I decided to do the job myself because I can no longer trust
anyone
to work on my car. There's just too much at stake, and here
in
transient, fly-by-night South Florida, there's no expertise with
our
kind of car. I bought a crane and pulled it out myself.
What
I found was shocking. First, I noticed the ".50" on
the
piston tops - the block had been bored .020 oversize - without
my
knowledge. And, on my #2 cylinder wall, there was this strange line
running
clear from the bottom of the cylinder to the very top.
It
was about 1MM wide and .010 deep. The inner part of the groove
was
rough. Nobody that I talked to could explain to what it was.
Until
my machine shop guy saw it. He told me that the last machine
shop
had apparently gotten their tool stuck in that cylinder and had simply
forced the bit out. Then, instead of re-boring to clean up
the
groove, they put the motor back together and handed the car back
to
me. That explained the oil.
Another thing I found was on another
piston, the compression ring
was stuck in the ring groove, hung up to the
point that I sustained a
very deep cut trying to free it.
I have
switched jobs and have been working so much in the last 3 months
that I've
had maybe 20 hours to work on my motor. At this point, I
have the heads
on and the bottom end back together. The machine shop
took 5 months to
do my block, crank and heads. Here's what I got done:
Polish
crank
Bore block .0345 over
Balance pistons and rings
Press rod
pins
Overhaul valve train
3-angle valve job
Cut tops of valves
(increases flow on backside of valves)
Clean up heads and do a little more
porting on exhaust side
The machine shop guy, Dan, was slow as molasses,
but guys, he did a
superb job. He was also conciencious. I'm glad
I had enough patience
to wait instead of yanking my stuff out of there after
4 months!
I have J-E forged aluminum pistons .030 oversize. Since
Brad Bedell
had gotten some stock pistons made just a couple of months prior
by
simply sending them a stock one, J-E was able to use the setup as
a
model and simply increased the bore by .02953. Thanks for your
help,
Brad. BTW guys, you should see the work Brad has done to his
car -- he
should go into business fabricating stuff for our cars. I'd
be first in
line!
I have about 40 hours labor left plus I need to get that 1->2
synchro
installed that Jack T. got for me. Plus I need to fix that
1/4" hole
I found in my passenger side I/C. I keep forgetting that
I need to
do that. Oh, and I found the problem with my speedo -- the
metal
contacts in the connector were corroded to the point that they
broke
off when I tried to clean them up. Unfortunately, the contact
got
stuck inside of the harness.
Dave B. is making me up a set of
stainless steel O2 housings and Hau
gave me a set of Accel wires and some new
NGK plugs he want me to try.
Where is Hau, anyway? Last time I heard
from him was when he stopped
at my house in June on his way to Brazil.
Anybody have a current
e-mail address for him? Or phone
number?
That's all for now. Good to be back. Good to be
anywhere, really.
-Bob
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue
Oct 20 08:03:21 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: VR4 check
list
References: <01bdfbe9$02287700$ba89fed0@default>
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Hi
Ron;
I can't believe it....a VR$4!!!! Allllllllright!
Congratulations in
advance. What's the color, k's etc??
Some
things to look or ask for are:
1) Service record...look for a)
transmission problems b) recall on brake
hoses c) 60k service if it's there
yet...if not add a k to the bill or
negotiate another k off the price.
2)
60k should include belt, tensenor, waterpump & plugs as per previous
list
subscriber's recommendations. Some have even indicated replacing
cam and
crank seals at that time as well. Most of this is to avoid
repeat of the same
disassembly if one of these items fails. Rich (one of
our list develpers) can
advise in detail on the 60k when required. He's
building a photo journey of
it. It doesn't get any better than that.
3) Check out the transmission for
leaks, hard or clunky shifting, etc. A
good synthetic fluid change there (and
Mobil ! 10-30 in the crank) might
be considered as part of your
negotiations.
4) Is an extended warranty available and if so, consider the
extra $ for
it.
5) Who is the closest knowledgeable subscriber to you
(Rich, Errin (if
he's subscribed yet) ???)..maybe cruise down/ to their place
this
weekend and have them have a look at it...leave room in the
negotiations
for a return/immediate repair if something radical is
discovered.
6) I don't have some of the VR4 features on my TT that you will
have,
but check the active aero as I understand some problems developed
with
those. I'm sure you'll get other advice so I'll end it here.
Best
wishes
Darc
Ron-a-roid
wrote:
>
>
> OK guys, I'm
making the plunge and need the fine points
to
> look for. Found a 95 VR4 and I'm going
to look at Thursday
> or so to... most
likely buy it. The 93SL I have is great
but
> I guess I want _REALLY_ great. I also
have never cared for
> FWD. Besides
crunches, bends, shock leaks, tire wear,
etc,
> where are the red flag zones on a
VR4? Anxious and
>
excited,Ron-a-roid
>
--------------27E2091DDA39D4F27400FF25
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text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
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<HTML>
<BODY BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">
Hi
Ron;
<P>I can't believe it....a VR$4!!!! Allllllllright!
Congratulations
in advance. What's the color, k's
etc??
<P>Some things to look or ask for are:
<P>1)
Service record...look for a) transmission problems b) recall on brake
hoses
c) 60k service if it's there yet...if not add a k to the bill or
negotiate
another k off the price.
<BR>2) 60k should include belt, tensenor,
waterpump & plugs as per
previous list subscriber's recommendations.
Some have even indicated replacing
cam and crank seals at that time as well.
Most of this is to avoid repeat
of the same disassembly if one of these items
fails. Rich (one of our list
develpers) can advise in detail on the 60k when
required. He's building
a photo journey of it. It doesn't get any better than
that.
<BR>3) Check out the transmission for leaks, hard or clunky
shifting, etc.
A good synthetic fluid change there (and Mobil ! 10-30 in the
crank) might
be considered as part of your negotiations.
<BR>4) Is
an extended warranty available and if so, consider the extra
$ for
it.
<BR>5) Who is the closest knowledgeable subscriber to you (Rich,
Errin
(if he's subscribed yet) ???)..maybe cruise down/ to their place this
weekend
and have them have a look at it...leave room in the negotiations for
a
return/immediate repair if something radical is discovered.
<BR>6)
I don't have some of the VR4 features on my TT that you will have,
but check
the active aero as I understand some problems developed with
those. I'm sure
you'll get other advice so I'll end it here.
<P>Best
wishes
<P>Darc
<P>Ron-a-roid wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE
TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><FONT
COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>OK
guys, I'm making the
plunge and need the fine points to look for. Found
a 95 VR4 and I'm going to
look at Thursday or so to... most likely buy
it. The 93SL I have is great but
I guess I want _REALLY_ great. I also
have never cared for FWD. Besides
crunches, bends, shock leaks, tire wear,
etc, where are the red flag zones on
a VR4?</FONT></FONT> <FONT
COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>Anxious
and
excited,</FONT></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT
SIZE=-1>Ron-a-roid</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>
--------------27E2091DDA39D4F27400FF25--
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subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue
Oct 20 08:45:25 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Green Beast status update
(long)
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<01BDFC01.3FBA9040.bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
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Bob Fontana wrote:
<big snip>
>
[...] I have about 40 hours labor left [...]
Ya should've said
something. I was in Florida for my son's wedding and
ended up having a
couple of full days to kill before I came back. I
would *much* rather
have driven a bit south and spent my time on a
worthwhile project like
putting (parts of) and engine back together than
listening to my
brother-in-law tell me what was wrong with the world, my
life, his life ....
<hork>
<snippity-doo-dah>
> Where is Hau,
anyway? Last time I heard from him was when he stopped
> at my house
in June on his way to Brazil. Anybody have a current
> e-mail
address for him? Or phone number?
I talked to him a couple weeks
ago, and he's still in Brazil. AFAIK,
his yhauwang@gte.net addy is
still good. No phone # for him, though.
> That's all for
now. Good to be back. Good to be anywhere, really.
It's good
to see you posting again. I don't think there's a person on
the list(s)
that hasn't learned *something* from you over the years. I
know I
have.
Rich
Emerald Green 94 R/T
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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CC: cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com
Subject:
Team3S: [Fwd: Re: Tweaking the Blitz DSBC - LONG!!!]
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This is a multi-part message in MIME
format.
--------------1D432BFA193C
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Well, I'll try
forwarding this to the list to see if it goes ... cross
your
fingers.
Rich
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From: Chris Winkley
<cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Reply-To:
"cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com" <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To:
"'Chris Winkley'" <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject: RE:
Tweaking the Blitz DSBC - LONG!!!
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:46:39
-0700
Organization: ADP Dealer Services
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OK...
This wouldn't go to my "Team 3S BOD" list
either, now I'm down to trying just the two of you.
Looking backwards,
upwards, all around...Chris
==============================
Howdy
folks...
Troubleshooting time here. I've sent the following message to
the list twice. It doesn't appear on my end,
even when I cc myself. BUT, it
doesn't bounce back as undeliverable either. I'm receiving postings from the
rest of you. Any ideas?
Would someone forward this to the list (or to
Mike directly)? Thanks.
Darc...good advice on buying a
VR4.
Looking
forward...Chris
==============================
Mike...
WELCOME!!!
I
have a GReddy controller so I can't be too much help. I have, however, cut and
pasted a long message from
Roger sent back in September 1998, that talks
about the results of overboosting. Very well written. It's
after your
<snipped> message. My two cents worth...
My GReddy PRofec has a
ratio control (also in %). What it does, is control the OTB (overtake boost).
When you
set it, it's multiplying the boost limit you have. Soooo, in my
case, with my boost limited to 1.0 bar (the
psi / bar conversion is 1.0 bar
= 14.504 psi) and the ratio set at 25%, I get (if I press the OTB button)
1.25 bar (18.13 psi). What I've heard from several sources is that, heading
towards 20 psi with stock
everything will cause fuel cut and detonation
(both unhealthy).
Anyway, enjoy!!!
BTW...in electronics, GAIN =
the increase in amplitude (of a signal), expressed as a ratio of output to
input.
Looking forward...Chris
"Friends don't let friends
ride with me"
1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4
-----Original
Message-----
From: Mike Chapleski [SMTP:mike.chapleski@ibm.net]
Sent:
Monday, October 19, 1998 2:05 PM
To: Team3S
Subject: Team3S: Tweaking the
Blitz DSBC
OK,
Just signed up so lets see if there
are any pros out there.
<snip>
What is
"gain?"
What are the other functions on the DSBC? I
have the installation
instructions, which I got from Chein, but the Japanese
instructions have
many pages of what each function does, that are missing in
my
instructions.
What happens if you run 19 psi of boost on the stock
injectors and fuel
pump? Or more appropriately, what boost do you need
to get a high
output fuel pump and injectors?
And which would you buy
first?
=============================================
Message from
Roger (aka: Robby)...
This is something for a future FAQ (TT related)
:
We all know that we can increase power and torque easily by just
pushing up the
boost on our cars. But you must also know that there are some
drawbacks as well
as some things you MUST know what your car will do if you
run high boost. I try
to cover a few of the most important things here. Why ?
I just found out that at
least one cylinder has gone south and I have to
rebuild my car. Well, I learned
my lesson not early enough and did not heard
to the winks my car gave me. Here
are some important points :
1.
Boost
Boost "should" be easily turned up to 15psi. Well, it is also
possible to turn
up boost up to 20psi as I did and the car runned like hell.
But can the car
handle that much boost ? Maybe yes, maybe not. For sure,
simply turning up the
boost doesn't give you healthy car. Also consider fuel,
timing, air, exhaust and
more parameters. If you installed a Boost Controller
(BC), aftermarket filter
and maybe an exhaust as well (DP,CAT,CBE), 15psi is
the MAX for a safe setup. If
you have a strong car, you can run higher boost
but listen to the following :
2. Fuel Cut
Fuel cut (FC) does exactly
what it says. Suppose you are running totally out of
gas when accelerating
around 5600 or just push the pedal to the ground through
the band, at 5500
let it off and push it again. Your car will shake and you'll
almost bite into
the steering wheel. This is how fuel cut feels. The fuel cut is
controlled by
the ECU as it takes parameters, like air-flow, temperature, rpms,
O2 sensors
and calculates the possible boost (shown on your meter) Also this
calculation
then relates to a point in the fuel map that finally describes the
amount of
fuel needed. This is how the ECU controls the injectors duty cycle. If
the
ECU then falls off the programmed fuel maps, i.e. the injectors are
running
at 100% (often also less) and it can't determine the next point of
the map than
the ECU thinks that here's something going wrong and shuts off
the fuel. The
fuel-cut is also related to engine knock, but this is discussed
later. As you
read, fuel cut depends on different parameters and is a
security thing of the
ECU. If you are running a safe setup you should not run
into this problem. If
you have bigger turbos, other injectors or even more
mods, you can get rid of
the cut with the help of a VPC, AFC or another ECU.
This because they are
tweaking the ECU by altering the air-flow signal and
therefore leads the ECU
back onto the maps.
3. Knock
All cars are
having a knock sensor. This sensor acts like a microphone and
listens to any
"strange" sound the engine makes. If your ECU is "hearing"
knock,
it starts thinking that there's something wrong with it. After a few
cycles with
knock, it starts to retard the timing by a specific amount of
degrees as it trys
to get rid of the knock by giving the spark later than
supposed. It therefore
doesn't burn the fuel that good and the power produced
goes back. This loss in
power is very well visible on the dyno as well as you
can feel it as a
HESITATION. This because the timing will be advanced again
after knock
disappeared for a few seconds. If knock doesn't disappear and the
timing cannot
be retarded anymore the car engages the fuel cut-off as well as
it jumps into an
emergency program. This is a special fuel-map that is speed
(rpm) related and
does not look on any table nor to any sensor. Also it is
limited to 3000rpms (on
mine). This means that you car runs in a mode that
allows you to drive into the
next garage. Interestingly, I've never seen a
Check Engine light in this
situation (?) The ECU switches back out of the
emergency program if it sees
proper values for a longer time (I guess it was
more than a minute or so) not
letting you go over 3000 (where the power is).
On my car we found knock was
starting at 1,05bars of boost ! Therefore any
overboost was hurting the car. I
never heard this knock when driving on the
street as the rpms rised pretty fast
and the only thing I felt was that the
car had a hesitation or bogged sometimes
very hard. I had knock !
4.
Fuel
The easiest thing to get rid of a lean situation is to give more fuel.
If the
temp in the chamber rises too high also giving more fuel will cool it.
But this
is not the way you should do it !!!! If the temp is too high or the
pressure is
too big then there's a cause for this situation. If this problem
is eliminated
then the additional fuel can be burnt and therefore will
produce power for you.
On our cars the biggest problem (of course there are
others) is the pressure as
well as the temperature in the exhaust manifold
before the turbo(s). If the
pressure is too high, already burnt gases will be
pushed back into the chamber
and a short but very lean situation occurs. On
the next cycle the situation can
be away and therefore the mixture is good
again. Due to the backpressure, the
chamber is preloaded with more pressure
and therefore the pistons and its rings
will be under heavy load when on BDC
(bottom dead center) of the cycle.
Therefore, bigger turbos on the exhaust
side and a better exhaust manifold will
help to get rid off the pressure.
Then the gases have to leave the turbos asap
as they will heat up anything.
The precats are the first and big restriction we
should think to get rid off.
Then the dp/cat and the rest of the exhaust will
finally help too. But it
doesn't help if you change only one section and still
have the restrictive
pre-cats in the front.
5. Air
The air should be cool when it enters
the chamber. The problem starts here in
our intake as the engine sucks
under-hood air in. Then the turbos heats the air
up by compressing it. This
can be simply calculated by adding the temp-increase
(also turbo-efficiency)
to the temp of the sucked air. Finally the air is cooled
down by the
intercoolers (air-air in our cars) to provide a lower temperature
for the
intake. The efficiency of the IC finally determines the intake
temperature as
well as the exhaust gases mixed by the EGT stuff. Therefore it is
a good idea
to give the car as much fresh and cool air as possible.
Unfortunately, no
real good solution has been found for our cars already.
A few months ago,
I dynoed the car and got 397hp(DIN add 2% for SAE) at
1.05bars. The car was
healthy then and I felt no problem. Even today it still
feels strong but the
blow-off valve started to push out a white oil-steam when
shifting as well as
my oil-cap started to leak due to much more pressure in the
crankcase as
normal. The compression test showed very low figures for all
cylinders as
well as two that were very little (105 and 71psi). Well, I had way
too much
boost over a long time (up to 20psi) and cured the fuel-cut with the
help of
an Air-Fuel Controller. But I didn't listen to the knock enough and now
...
time for a rebuild.
Hope that this helps anybody !
Roger,
Switzerland
93'3000GT
TT
--------------1D432BFA193C--
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Oct 20 12:46:34 1998
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Message-ID:
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From: Brad Bedell
<bbedell@texas.net>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: back
Date: Tue, 20
Oct 1998 14:44:38 -0500
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Hey everyone, I am back.
I have
something bugging me.
91-93 AWD vehicles have on their sticker on the
rear end gear 3.545.
94+ have 3.307 on the sticker.
Has anyone
ever mechanically determined the gear ratio?
Brian at GT Alley claims
that the tags are different, but the gear ratio is really the same.
Can
anyone, through a mechanical process prove this right or wrong?
I am
willing to take the cover off my rear differential to count gears if someone
else could do the same on a 94+.
> Brad
>
> Check out my
home page: http://lonestar.texas.net/~bbedell
> E-Mail:
bbedell@texas.net ICQ# 3612682
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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From:
"Palamara, Peter" <pala@gwl.com>
To:
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Green Beast
status update (long)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:50:37 -0600
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Hey Bob:::
I see
that you had je pistons make you some forged pistons. By chance
do you think
they still have the mold for them or however they make them
or do you think
they will need one of my stocks to make a copy for
forging.
This winter as you all are mabey aware of we are
installing greddy
manifolds and their td05-16g upgrade on my car. Everything
except for
the type-s wastegates has to be shipped over from Japan to the US.
I
wont go into cost but I needed to strengthen up the bottom end for
this
new found cfm ratings. It will be a timely process as that I will
be
doing some work on my own and some of it will be done by action
turbos,
and since the cost will be hopefully around $7500 but as you all
may
know the total outcome price is never what the guessed price is. So
we
will be doing this in stages since I'm not the richest man on earth
and
hopefully have the car done by the next import shootout in august...
I
will have a web sight up for pictures on the process as it
takes
place...
Pete Palamara
92 3000vr-4(GTO)
500 hp of
Fun
(303)689-4733
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue
Oct 20 13:01:59 1998
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From: Brad Bedell
<bbedell@texas.net>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Green Beast / JE
Pistons
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:00:03 -0500
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Pete, Talk to Rich Garner at JE. I
setup an account there awhile =
back.
He may do the same for you, just
tell him that I sent you his way.
I can dig up the job # for you if you
like, this way you will can avoid =
shipping him a piston.
A note for
everyone, if enough people wanted to order a set of pistons, =
JE
offers quantity purchases. I believe quantity over 40 units will
=
allow piston cost to be ~65.00 each.
I would be interested in a
spare set at the 65.00 each price. I would =
be happy to organize a
large purchase if anyone was interested in doing =
this. I
could help get the quantity up a bit through the DSM guys.
>
Brad
>=20
> Check out my home page:
http://lonestar.texas.net/~bbedell
> E-Mail: bbedell@texas.net ICQ#
3612682
-----Original Message-----
From: Palamara, Peter
[SMTP:pala@gwl.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 2:51 PM
To:
'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'
Subject: RE: Team3S: Green Beast status
update (long)
Hey Bob:::
I see that you had je
pistons make you some forged pistons. By chance
do you think they still have
the mold for them or however they make them
or do you think they will need
one of my stocks to make a copy for
is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
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From
owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Oct 20 13:09:26 1998
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Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:11:46
-0400
From: "Theiss, Charles"
<charles.theiss@lmco.com>
Subject: Team3S: pistons
To:
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
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I would be interested in placing an
order also if we are able to get them
for $65.
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Oct 20 13:16:49 1998
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From:
"Fein, Edward" <fein@strategy.com>
To:
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Check Engine
codes?
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:16:35 -0400
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stealth-3000gt
Does anyone know how to get the trouble codes out of
the ECU when the 'Check
Engine' light comes on? I mean, other than going to a
dealer?
Over the long weekend my car has started getting Check Engine
lights. So
far, the past three times I have filled the gas tank, the 'Check
Engine'
light has come on within 50 miles of driving. These have been the
only times
the light has come on, however. Since the engine seemed to be
running fine,
I just disconnected the battery to resetthe ECU codes - and the
light stays
out until the next time I refill the tank. The funny thing is,
when I put 8
gallons in (leaving it still below 3/4 full) I didn't get the
light.
So it seems to have something to do with the tank being full. I
would
suspect a leaky gas cap. Except I have a '94 and the fuel tank
pressure
sensor is part of OBD-II, right?
I've looked through my shop
manuals and none of the codes have any check
conditions related to a full gas
tank. So I'd like to be able to pull the
code off my ECU (after my next
fill-up) but I don't want to go to a dealer.
For now I'll just avoid filling
the tank completely...
Any help or suggestions people could give would be
appreciated.
Thanks,
-Ed
'94 VR-4
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue
Oct 20 13:23:23 1998
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From: Brad Bedell
<bbedell@texas.net>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Check Engine
codes?
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:21:24 -0500
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Yes, On the 91-93 cars there is a little 10 pin (I think)
white connector next to the fuse box under the drivers side of the
dash.
I forget which pin it is, but you take a test lamp ground on end of
the lamp and probe the pins.
The light will blink your code out.
I
think the pin is the bottom left one. Pin #10 comes to mind.
In any
case, just probe the pins until you find the correct one, just be careful not to
probe two at once.
> Brad
>
> Check out my home
page: http://lonestar.texas.net/~bbedell
> E-Mail:
bbedell@texas.net ICQ# 3612682
-----Original
Message-----
From: Fein, Edward [SMTP:fein@strategy.com]
Sent: Tuesday,
October 20, 1998 3:17 PM
To: 'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'
Subject:
Team3S: Check Engine codes?
Does anyone know how to get the trouble
codes out of the ECU when the 'Check
Engine' light comes on? I mean, other
than going to a dealer?
Over the long weekend my car has started
getting Check Engine lights. So
far, the past three times I have filled the
gas tank, the 'Check Engine'
light has come on within 50 miles of driving.
These have been the only times
------
=_NextPart_000_01BDFC3D.4D98B520
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From:
"Palamara, Peter" <pala@gwl.com>
To:
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Green Beast / JE
Pistons
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:40:26 -0600
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I'm all for it too, but if you have a
contact and phone # and workorder
# I would appreciate it allot. Thanx
Pete Palamara
92 3000vr-4(GTO)
500 hp of
Fun
(303)689-4733
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
bbedell@texas.net [SMTP:bbedell@texas.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 20,
1998 2:00 PM
> To: 'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'
> Subject: RE:
Team3S: Green Beast / JE Pistons
>
> Pete, Talk to Rich
Garner at JE. I setup an account there awhile
> back.
>
He may do the same for you, just tell him that I sent you his way.
>
> I can dig up the job # for you if you like, this way you will
can
> avoid shipping him a piston.
>
> A note for everyone,
if enough people wanted to order a set of
> pistons, JE offers
quantity purchases. I believe quantity over 40
> units will
allow piston cost to be ~65.00 each.
>
> I would be interested in a
spare set at the 65.00 each price. I would
> be happy to organize a
large purchase if anyone was interested in
> doing this.
I could help get the quantity up a bit through the DSM
> guys.
>
> > Brad
> >
> > Check out my home
page: http://lonestar.texas.net/~bbedell
> > E-Mail:
bbedell@texas.net ICQ# 3612682
>
>
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Check Engine
codes?
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:02:43 -0700
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Ed has a '94, but if someone knows how to manually pull the codes on
a 94+
then I would also like this information.
I looked for but could
not lcoate the Mistubishi test block that the 91-93
cars have. Maybe I
missed it.
'94 was quasi-ODBII in that it has the ISO ODBII style
diagnostics port,
ODBII style ECU pinouts, some ODBII sensors and codes (but
not all) and
half-implemented ODBII code in the ECU. Normal ODBII scan
tools are not
gauranteed to work according to the three scan tool
manufacturers with whom
I enquired.
Barry
>
-----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:bbedell@texas.net] On
Behalf Of Brad Bedell
> Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 1:21 PM
>
To: 'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Check Engine
codes?
>
> Yes, On the 91-93 cars there is a little 10 pin (I
think) white
> connector next to the fuse box under the drivers side of
the dash.
>
> I forget which pin it is, but you take a test lamp
ground on end
> of the lamp and probe the pins.
> The light will
blink your code out.
>
> I think the pin is the bottom left
one. Pin #10 comes to mind.
>
> In any case, just probe the
pins until you find the correct one,
> just be careful not to probe two at
once.
>
>
>
> > Brad
> >
> > Check
out my home page: http://lonestar.texas.net/~bbedell
>
> E-Mail: bbedell@texas.net ICQ# 3612682
>
>
>
-----Original Message-----
> From: Fein, Edward
[SMTP:fein@strategy.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 3:17 PM
>
To: 'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'
> Subject: Team3S: Check Engine
codes?
>
>
> Does anyone know how to get the trouble codes out
of the ECU when
> the 'Check
> Engine' light comes on? I mean, other
than going to a dealer?
>
>
> Over the long weekend my car has
started getting Check Engine lights. So
> far, the past three times I have
filled the gas tank, the 'Check Engine'
> light has come on within 50
miles of driving. These have been the
> only
times
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue
Oct 20 22:00:47 1998
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Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:58:30
-0500
From: Jeff Crabtree <wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Check Engine
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Fein, Edward wrote:
So it seems to have
something to do with the tank being full. I would
> suspect a leaky
gas cap. Except I have a '94 and the fuel tank pressure
> sensor is part
of OBD-II, right?
>
Ed,
I don't have a
lot to offer you on your situation except that my first thought when
you
talked about how the problem happens when your gas tank is not full is that
perhaps
you have water in your fuel tank and MAYBE that is setting off the
check engine light
somehow. Water is lighter than gasoline and would
float on top, for the most part, and
only get drawn into the fuel lines when
the gas level gets kinda low. It's an age old
problem that I think most
people overlook.
If this does turn out to be the case,
You can buy a chemical treatment at most auto
parts stores to solve the
problem.
GOOD LUCK,
--
-Jeff
Crabtree
'91 R/T
Turbo
St. Louis,
MO
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed
Oct 21 00:26:43 1998
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Subject: Team3S: RE: Hesitation/Knocks
(The lost mail)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:26:06 +0200
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This mail have been lost in cyberspace for a few
days.
Original posting From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
<wce@bc.sympatico.ca>
>Hi Mikael;
>
>Can you post with
the httlp// in your address ... <SNIP>
No I can't !! But if you
want me to I can post with http:// :)
Sorry for that but I
coulden't recist :) Usually I post with the complete address because I always
cut and paste from the address line on my browser. I promise to get i right next
time.
Here is is again http://www.aquamist.co.uk/
Mini gathering
update !! We had a very nice gathering all two of us :)
Oscar was impressed
with the difference the boost controller does and I think he will install one
asap when he get back to US. He's a very nice guy and I invited him to join
Team3S, he has a 95 Stealth TT.
/Mikael
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed
Oct 21 07:38:51 1998
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From:
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To:
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Check Engine
codes?
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:38:28 -0400
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No, my problem only occurs when the gas tank is
_full_.
I'm thinking that it's a leaky gas cap, with one of the
proto-OBD-II sensors
Barry mentioned. It makes sense that the car would check
for cap tightness
after each fill-up - i.e. only when the tank is
full.
-Ed
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff
Crabtree
Ed,
I don't have a lot to offer you
on your situation except that my first
thought when
you talked about how
the problem happens when your gas tank is not full is
that perhaps
you
have water in your fuel tank and MAYBE that is setting off the check
engine
light
somehow. Water is lighter than gasoline and would float on top,
for the
most part, and
only get drawn into the fuel lines when the gas
level gets kinda low. It's
an age old
problem that I think most
people overlook.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed
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From: "Bob
Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Check Engine
codes?
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:11:37 -0700
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-----Original Message-----From: Jeff
Crabtree
<wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com>
| I don't
have a lot to offer you on your situation except that my
first thought
when
|you talked about how the problem happens when your gas tank is not
full
is that perhaps
|you have water in your fuel tank and MAYBE that is
setting off the
check engine light
|somehow. Water is lighter than
gasoline and would float on top, for
the most part, and
|only get drawn
into the fuel lines when the gas level gets kinda low.
No answers to
the problem from me... Some questions, though...
I always thought
that gasoline was lighter than water!?
And is there a way to "fool"
the tank into thinking there is a tight
seal?
Some plastic wrap over the
gasoline filler tube before putting the cap
on,
perhaps?
Forrest
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Check Engine
codes?
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:27:52 -0700
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Gasoline IS lighter than water at approximately 70-75% the
weight of water
depending upon the formulation of the fuel. Therefore,
fuel will float on
top of water.
This is part of the reason you do not
want to fuel up at a gas station that
is being or has recently been
replenished. The fuel being dumped into the
in-ground tanks stirs up
muck and water that has settled to the bottom. The
pickups for the
in-ground tanks are far enough away from the bottom to allow
only fuel to be
pumped out under normal circumstances. Stir it all up and
you'll often
end up with water and dirt in your fuel tank.
Barry
>
-----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Bob Forrest
>
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 1998 9:12 AM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Check Engine
codes?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----From: Jeff
Crabtree
> <wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com>
> | I
don't have a lot to offer you on your situation except that my
> first
thought when
> |you talked about how the problem happens when your gas
tank is not full
> is that perhaps
> |you have water in your fuel
tank and MAYBE that is setting off the
> check engine light
>
|somehow. Water is lighter than gasoline and would float on top,
for
> the most part, and
> |only get drawn into the fuel lines when
the gas level gets kinda low.
>
>
> No answers to the problem
from me... Some questions, though...
>
> I always thought that
gasoline was lighter than water!?
> And is there a way to "fool"
the tank into thinking there is a tight
> seal?
> Some plastic wrap
over the gasoline filler tube before putting the cap
> on,
perhaps?
>
> Forrest
>
>
>
> For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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From:
"Fein, Edward" <fein@strategy.com>
To:
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Check Engine
codes?
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:28:34 -0400
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Turns out there is a way to get the codes to blink out
on the '94s and '95s.
Found it in the manual just after it describes how to
do it for the '91-'93
cars. In my manual it was page 13A-51. You ground the
first pin of the
OBD-II type diagnostic port (that would be the pin in the
corner closest to
both the firewall and driveline tunnel) and turn the key
into the ON
position, and the code will blink out on the Check Engine light -
the light
will give a number of long blinks equal to the tens digit followed
by a
number of short blinks equal to the ones digit, then
repeat.
Turns out I was getting a code 43 - EGR system malfunction. May
have
something to do with the fact that I blocked off my EGR pipe. According
to
the manual, that sensor only exists for California and '96+ cars... but
my
'94 Federal model has it. And funny that I only set it off four times
in
1300 miles.
Or at least I got a Code 43 today at lunch on a third
of a tank of gas...
the three previous lights (post-fill-up) may be a
different problem.
Time to reconnect my EGR system...
-Ed
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed
Oct 21 18:39:20 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Check Engine
codes?
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Barry E. King wrote:
> Ed has '94, '94 was
quasi-ODBII--it has the ISO ODBII diagnostics port,
> ODBII ECU pinouts,
some ODBII sensors/codes (not all) and
> half-implemented ODBII code in
ECU.
I wonder if some '94's came with OBD I setup complete? Henry
Yam had
said he thought some '94 were OBD I but midyear they changed to
OBD
II. I wish I knew if this were true, because someday I'd
sorta like to
search out an OBD I '94 VR4 with 6-speed, better brakes/stereo
etc that
could take the discard parts from my '93 easily...that way I
could
actually have one that RUNS...buy snowtires again and have fun with
it
like the old days :)
Jack T.
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Oct 21 18:59:06 1998
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Check Engine
codes?
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:59:30 -0700
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My '94 definitely does not have full ODBII code even
though the hardware is
more or less in place.
I rarely even get a CE
light if I disconnect the O2 sensors. The car
merrily runs thinking
life is grand.
As to pulling codes, pin 1 (upper left hand corner) can be
connected to
the -ve terminal of a analog voltmeter. Connect the +ve
lead to the
opposing corner connector and count the sweeps. This info
from a Dodge
technician. I have not tried it
yet.
Barry
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of xwing
> Sent:
Wednesday, October 21, 1998 6:34 PM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Check Engine
codes?
>
>
> Barry E. King wrote:
> > Ed has '94, '94
was quasi-ODBII--it has the ISO ODBII diagnostics port,
> > ODBII ECU
pinouts, some ODBII sensors/codes (not all) and
> > half-implemented
ODBII code in ECU.
>
> I wonder if some '94's came with OBD I setup
complete? Henry Yam had
> said he thought some '94 were OBD I but
midyear they changed to OBD
> II. I wish I knew if this were
true, because someday I'd sorta like to
> search out an OBD I '94 VR4 with
6-speed, better brakes/stereo etc that
> could take the discard parts from
my '93 easily...that way I could
> actually have one that RUNS...buy
snowtires again and have fun with it
> like the old days
:)
>
> Jack T.
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed
Oct 21 22:12:19 1998
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Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 00:13:07
-0500
From: Jeff Crabtree <wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com>
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To:
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<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Probably crap can
anyone confirm/deny?
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I got this from a freind on AOL....and god knows what a
welspring of
information alot of those folks can be...
"I don't
know if it is really true, but is worth a
try.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------
THIS IS FOR THE USA ONLY
I tried to pass this on
to anyone I could think of. I know for a fact
that this works so if you
ever get in this situation, you have an out.
This procedure works in any
state. Read it and try it, you have
nothing to lose but the points in your
license.
If u get a speeding ticket or went through a red light or whatever
the
case may be, and you are going to get points on your license,
then
there is a method to ensure that you DO NOT get any points.
When u
get your fine, send in the check to pay for it and if the fine
is say $79,
then make the check out for $82 or some small amount above
the fine. The
system will then have to send you back a check for the
difference, but here
is the trick!
DO NOT CASH THE CHECK!!
Throw it away! Points are not
assessed to your license until
all the financial transactions are complete.
If you do not cash the
check, then the transactions are not
complete.
However the system has gotten its money so it is happy and will
not
bother you any more.
SOURCE: Thoonen Production Administrator RACV
Touring Publications."
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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From:
"Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Probably crap can
anyone confirm/deny?
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 01:06:13 -0700
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|If u get a speeding ticket or went
through a red light or whatever the
|case may be, and you are going to get
points on your license, then
|there is a method to ensure that you DO NOT get
any points.
|When u get your fine, send in the check to pay for it and if the
fine
|is say $79, then make the check out for $82 or some small amount
above
|the fine. The system will then have to send you back a check for
the
|difference, but here is the trick!
|DO NOT CASH THE CHECK!!
|Throw
it away! Points are not assessed to your license until
|all the
financial transactions are complete. If you do not cash the
|check, then the
transactions are not complete.
|However the system has gotten its money so it
is happy and will not
|bother you any more.
|SOURCE: Thoonen Production
Administrator RACV Touring Publications."
It's certainly logical
that the system would leave the case open and not
assess the points to your
record... But it's also logical that the
system might not log the
transaction until it was complete, and there
might NOT be a record of payment
until that completion. Well,
somebody's going to have to test it at
ticket time. It would be SO cool
if it's
true...
Forrest
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
FORREST: Studio
West
Special-Effects Photography
for Advertising and
Publishing
http://www.bobforrest.com
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu
Oct 22 01:35:14 1998
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Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 04:35:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: JEEPers
<fxc9364@megahertz.njit.edu>
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Probably crap can anyone
confirm/deny?
In-Reply-To:
<00b901bdfd92$e2470680$6aeb86cd@BobForrest>
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Too bad, I already got my tickets taken care of. Now my
safety network to
protect against any future speeding tickets is my trusty CB
radio, which
my brother conveniently has right now. : ( O well, another
reason to buy
a new CB.
Bob Forrest
wrote:
>>It's certainly logical that the system would leave the case
open and not
>>assess the points to your record... But it's also
logical that the
>>system might not log the transaction until it was
complete, and there
>>might NOT be a record of payment until that
completion. Well,
>>somebody's going to have to test it at ticket
time. It would be SO cool
>>if it's
true...
>>
>>Forrest
>>:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>>FORREST:
Studio West
>>Special-Effects Photography
>>for Advertising
and
Publishing
>>http://www.bobforrest.com
>>:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>>
>>For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>>
Frank
-JEEPers-
"Kung-Fu Forrest"
MY WEB PAGE IS
UP...http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Canyon/6045/
"Jeep is America's
only real sports car" Mr. Enzo Ferrari
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From: Ryan Peterson
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To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: 1st post
Date:
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Okay, hope I didn't screw this post up. Glad to see
the new list. We
need a simpler posting name though :)
You guys
had to suggest a west coast gathering now that my car is
stripped apart
again. The way things are going, I won't be done until
2000.
Better to take the time and do it right than too quick and
shoddy. Oh
well, maybe I could come down and visit anyway.
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Oct 22 11:55:17 1998
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Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998
20:55:13 +0200
From: Mike Chapleski
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Check Engine codes?
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> '94 was quasi-ODBII in that it has the ISO ODBII
style diagnostics port,
> ODBII style ECU pinouts, some ODBII sensors and
codes (but not all) and
> half-implemented ODBII code in the ECU.
Normal ODBII scan tools are not
> gauranteed to work according to the
three scan tool manufacturers with whom
> I
enquired.
Barry,
What scan tools were you looking
at. I know Snap On has one. I think I
saw it on Shade Tree
Mechanic for $350. Also, there is one in my Eastwood
catalog for $350
that will do "all domestic cars through '97." Not sure if
the
Stealth is considered domestic. Although $350 is a lot of money, if
the thing
works for ALL cars, it really is not much different than the $250
torque wrench
I ask for and got for Christmas last year. What I am
worried about is none of
these readers seem to have a "plug in"
module for say OBD I or OBD II or OBD 50
in the future. It sure would
be great if there was a computer program out
there that just imported the
codes; then you could download them to a laptop
that would break them out for
specific cars. I don't want to spend $350 for
something that works on
MOST cars (which is usually all cars except the one I
am currently working
on) then not good for '98's and on.
Mike C. <--starting to get
that Christmas list ready
0018
'95 Stealth RT TT
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu
Oct 22 12:10:19 1998
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From: Bob Fontana
<bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: "'Stealth List'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Some new
pics
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:09:49 -0400
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Technologies Group, Inc.
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Hello all,
I haven't had time to put these picture
into HTML form yet, but in case
you're interested,
here are the
links. Hopefully your mail clients can startup your brower
from this
message.
http://www.gate.net/~mits/98r003.jpg shows the bad cylinder I
was running
with. This picture is taken at an angle looking down into
the cylinder.
You can get an idea of the depth of the groove from this
picture, but it
was even deeper than it
looks.
http://www.gate.net/~mits/98r004.jpg shows what the 4-bolt main
cap looks
like. Compare it to the 2-bolt main shown at
http://www.gate.net/~mits/maincap.jpg.
In
http://www.gate.net/~mits/98r005.jpg I have the bottom end disassembled
and
on the bench getting prepared to take to the machine shop. This was on
April 30th, 1998.
http://www.gate.net/~mits/98r007.jpg shows the
inside of the J-E piston
dome. Notice the logo..
In
http://www.gate.net/~mits/98r008.jpg after several double-checks, I
finally
got the pistons, rings and rods perfect and snapped this picture
since this
is hopefully the last time I'll see these babies for a long
time.
http://www.gate.net/~mits/98r006.jpg was taken after I got the
heads on but
before the timing
belt.
http://www.gate.net/~mits/98r009.jpg shows the closeup of an intake
port.
There's hardly any meat left on
it.
http://www.gate.net/~mits/98r010.jpg shows a closeup of all 3
ports.
I have tons more pictures but they're related to the timing belt
since I
thought I'd try to document that process and stick it on a page
somewhere.
-Bob
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu
Oct 22 12:40:59 1998
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From: Ryan Peterson
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To: "New Stealth List (E-mail)"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: manual tranny
question
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:33:09 -0700
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Okay here's a good one. Anyone
ever actually got into their manual
transmission?
There is a small
"cap" on the far right (passenger) end of the tranny
held on with
about 8 bolts. I pulled this off so I can chrome it (don't
ask).
Unfortunately, a small (2") brass sprocket popped off as I was
removing
the cap before I could actually see how it was originally
attached. I
know where it goes, but not which direction. The shop
manuals don't get
into the actual guts of the tranny. Anyone been here
before?
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu
Oct 22 13:02:22 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: manual tranny
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Ryan:
You may want to let folks know which tranny
you have (FWD or AWD).
Rich
<no snips>
Ryan Peterson
wrote:
Okay here's a good one. Anyone ever actually got into their
manual
transmission?
There is a small "cap" on the far right
(passenger) end of the tranny
held on with about 8 bolts. I pulled this
off so I can chrome it (don't
ask). Unfortunately, a small (2")
brass sprocket popped off as I was
removing the cap before I could actually
see how it was originally
attached. I know where it goes, but not which
direction. The shop
manuals don't get into the actual guts of the
tranny. Anyone been here
before?
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Oct 22 13:42:06 1998
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Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 22:41:37
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From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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Subject: Team3S: RE: boost lag
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Hi Gang !
Well, I'm back from Crete and my back
really hurts (I hate MTBs now !!).
First, sorry for the confusion. Jim
was absolutely right, as his car had
definitely less lag while mine seemed to
be quicker in the upper rpm range. But
mine always had more lag, even when
shifting on higher or lower rpms.
Why ? The explanation can sit in my
"engine rebuild" update message I'll send ya
tomorrow. Just in
short : Small part of #4 piston between the rings has broken
(no
compression); #2 rings are broken; rear turbo is leaking. Hmmm, I
think
this could be an explanation to the lag :(
Furthermore, the
Blitz DSBC has two settings that allows to get the most
potential out of the
car. I learned that the GAIN setting helped to decrease the
lag while the
RATIO represents the % of the most available boost of the system.
I found out
that the DSBC uses a way to alternate the wastegates and with this
it is able
to reduce lag as well as to hold boost in the upper rpms. When I have
my car
back I start with diagnosing the car as well as recording the behaivour
of
the DSBC solenoid controls. This will maybe bring some light to this :)
In
the near future, we'll be able to hook up the diag-system to Jims car as
well to
find out how the Apexi works :)
Also bigger Turbos will cause
more lag. This because there is simply more mass
to be rotated. But the
european and the US cars (and all others) do have the
same turbos and
therefore we could eliminate this thing. Next week the GT-Alley
turbos will
find their way into the car and I expect only a little bit more lag
as they
are a hybrid design. We will see :)
Even more another IC design can cause
or reduce lag. I will install the FMIC
sometimes after the turbos to have a
good back to back comparison. Also I'll
install temperature and pressure
sensors in the piping to record any loss or
gain as well as to prove the
efficiency of the system.
-----------------------
Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor
wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,SBOV,ATR DP/cat,
Borla,OZ
Mito2,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,Bremsa brakes,Pagid RS-R pads
Ready:
GT-Alley 368S Turbos,front mount IC/ stainless steel piping,G-Force ECU
(3
EPROMS),fuel pump,VPC,GCC,720 Injectors,Blitz Filter/GT-Alley VPC
adapter,
Maybe: f.aluminum pistons (if rebuild needed)
Visit my homepage
under: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu
Oct 22 15:47:06 1998
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Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 18:45:42
-0400
From: josesini <josesini@engin.umich.edu>
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To: Team3S List
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Transmission Fluids,
Short Shifter, etc...
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Hello all,
Before I start asking a bunch of
questions I just wanted to thank
whomever was responsible for starting this
list!
Anyhow, as some of you know I'm STILL in the process of rebuilding
my
5sp getrag. Hopefully it will be done early next week. A
lengthy post
on the rebuild will follow once I get to drive it. For now
I've been
gathering information/opinions on transmission fluids - what and
what
not to use:
>From the DSM list:
Mike from DSS
(AutoX/Roadrace guru for 2nd Gen. DSMs) suggest the use of
BG synchroshift
and strongly suggest to never use Redline MTL.
Apparently it has caused
premature bearing failure on 6 of his racing
cars. (not all DSMs)
Dave
Buschur (9.5XX second 1/4 mi on RWD DSM) agrees with Mike from DSS
that the
BG synchroshift is great and that Redline MTL is crap.
2 or 3 other
people said they found no better feeling with BG stuff but
that when changed
to the MTL stuff it was like day and night. I think
they were talking
about smoothness (because as I test-drove a 1st Gen.
DSM and a brand new 98
DSM I noticed the shifting was very notchy -
ugh!- compared to my
Stealth)
>From the Stealth@starnet.net list:
Ed Fein
(AutoX/Roadrace 3Scars) suggests Redline MT-90.
Now I know the
DSMs transmissions are a lot different than ours. To put
it in perspective
here's a quote from the chief mechanic where my tranny
is being
rebuilt:
"For the 3S trannys I would only trust one of my mechanics and
myself,
for the DSM's tranny, even my 14yr old son could rebuild that
one."
Any suggestions from this group? BTW Redline Shockproof
Heavy in
transfercase and the rear diff. right?
Regarding the
SHIFTER, I would like to upgrade it/improve it, because I
noticed (when
racing 1/4mi and autoX) that during fast shifts from 1st
to 2nd, the grinding
(the tranny was already bad) increased if my hand
pulled back and to the
left. If I tried to concentrate and pull
straight back, the grinding
was less.
Will the C's short shifter address this play that exists on
the current
shifter, or should I replace all the bushings with metal ones to
remove
any play. Of course this will increase the probability of
missing a
gear during a 1/4 mi run! But if you're good it doesn't
matter. :)
Oh yeah, when I write the rebuild post, I will include an
evaluation on
the ACT clutch with the solid (no springs) 6 puck
copper/ceramic pads.
Later,
Jose Sinibaldi
'92 Stealth
TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu
Oct 22 16:26:20 1998
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Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:23:59
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Subject: Team3S: Gentle
reminder
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A gentle reminder: Everyone please pay attention to the
rules agreed to
when your subscription was undertaken. Half wit comments
relating to
life apart from 3S topics are not encouraged, and will in
likelihood
find the author of the same looking for a new group to share jokes
with.
We are sincere and serious here, and want this list to
stay
professional. It doesn't get any better than the first rate bunch
of
guys who are here now, and we certainly don't want another
exodus
occurring because there was too much water in the
wine.
Darcy
92 Stealth TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Transmission Fluids,
Short Shifter, etc...
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I have the C's shifter on my 91 VR-4. Not at all happy
with it. Has tendency
to jam at the worst time. It may need a better return
spring. I'd go for the
bushings first and then cut off about 1 or 2 inches of
the old shift stick. It
will be less $ & much better.
Arty 91
VR-4
n a message dated 10/22/98 10:48:17 PM !!!First
Boot!!!,
josesini@engin.umich.edu writes:
<<
Regarding the
SHIFTER, I would like to upgrade it/improve it, because I
noticed (when
racing 1/4mi and autoX) that during fast shifts from 1st
to 2nd, the grinding
(the tranny was already bad) increased if my hand
pulled back and to the
left. If I tried to concentrate and pull
straight back, the grinding
was less.
Will the C's short shifter address this play that exists on
the current
shifter, or should I replace all the bushings with metal ones to
remove
any play. Of course this will increase the probability of
missing a
gear during a 1/4 mi run! But if you're good it doesn't
matter. :)
>>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu
Oct 22 19:01:40 1998
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From: "Dennis
Moore" <stealth@kiva.net>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Some new
pics
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 21:01:28 -0500
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In 98R008.jpg, what are the rings that
look like they're scribed into the
tops of your pistons? Valve impact
prints? Ouch!
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob
Fontana <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: 'Stealth List'
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 2:10
PM
Subject: Team3S: Some new pics
[snip]
>In
http://www.gate.net/~mits/98r008.jpg after several double-checks,
I
>finally got the pistons, rings and rods perfect and snapped this
picture
>since this is hopefully the last time I'll see these babies for a
long
>time.
>
[snip]
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 20:24:01
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From: "Errin D. Humphrey"
<errin@u.washington.edu>
Organization: University of
Washington
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Subject: Team3S:
Glad to Be Here!
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Hi All!
Thanks to Bob Forrest, Darc, and Mikael for
the kind
invitations they sent me! I am enthusiastic in joining
this
new list, and I look forward to much joyful enlightment
while
participating on it. ^_^
Many have been asking about Hau, so here's
the scoop.
Hau's @ss is still down in Brazil, and it looks like he
is
going to be there for a while. He says he will be visiting
his
house here in WA sometime in November, but that
is what he has told me each
of the past 3 months. Hau
plans to apply for the MBA program at the UW
(where
I currently attend), so I just picked up the application
for
him. His Stealth (with a bunch of my stuff on it) is
sitting in the
garage collecting dust, and his house ...
If you want to email Hau, here
is his address. On Starnet,
I wouldn't feel comfortable posting it, but
since we all know
each other this shouldn't be a problem. I'm starting
to love
this list more already!
yhauwang@hotmail.com
If you
write to him, be sure and remind him that his cats
are starving to
death. I have only been able to go over to
his place on occasion in
order to feed the poor things.
Here is Hau's cellphone # which he almost
always answers
anytime from noon until the wee hours of the
morning:
011-55-92-989-2000
Be advised that calling Brazil is
extremely expensive. I
found out the hard way. But I am sure that
Hau would love
to hear from all of you, even if for only a few
minutes.
Also, Hau told me that he plans to get back on IRC, since
you
haven't seen him there in a while. He generally gets on
very late
(~11pm PST which is 2am in Brazil).
Barry just sent me an email regarding
exhaust system issues
for our cars, so it will take me a while to digest and
ponder it,
but be looking for a post from me on the issue in the
near
future.
Yours truly,
--Errin Humphrey
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu
Oct 22 23:08:06 1998
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From: josesini <josesini@engin.umich.edu>
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To:
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CC: Aso8@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Transmission Fluids, Short Shifter, etc...
References:
<82b8161a.362fc564@aol.com>
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Arty,
Thanks for your input. Besides the C's
shifter I'm also considering the
shifter Buschur racing is selling for our
cars. It's only $75 w/ core
or $100 w/out core. Apparently it is
longer in the bottom and shorter
on top - yielding shorter throws between
gears. Also for some reason I
think the angle has been changed.
I'm not clear on what angle?
Jose
92 TT
Aso8@aol.com
wrote:
>
> I have the C's shifter on my 91 VR-4. Not at all happy
with it. Has tendency
> to jam at the worst time. It may need a better
return spring. I'd go for the
> bushings first and then cut off about 1 or
2 inches of the old shift stick. It
> will be less $ & much
better.
> Arty 91 VR-4
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Oct 23 00:29:58 1998
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From:
"=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?=" <vr4@bahnhof.se>
To:
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Subject: Team3S: 3000GT.com
Date:
Fri, 23 Oct 1998 09:29:24 +0200
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I'm not sure if you guys know this or
not.
3000gt.com is UP
!!!!!!!!
http://www.3000gt.com
/Mikael
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri
Oct 23 04:03:51 1998
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From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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Subject: Team3S: Engine rebuild update
(long!)
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Hi gang :)
Well, I'm back from my short holiday
that I used to bring down my nerves and to
take a good breath. I really
needed it. Now my back hurts from the MTB and the
horrible hills on Crete
:)
Back to my rebuild:
Some of you know what happened to my car:
knock, oil blasted out by the BOV,
engine on fire and more headaches. Finally
I had my car on the dyno again and
only got 337hp with a lot of timing
retarded. Also during this run the oil cap
started leaking and oil got
pressed out from the dipstick. This leaded to the
thought that there is too
much pressure in the crankcase and the oil is pressed
into the intake via the
ventilation lines. But where is this pressure coming
from ? Turbos ? Pistons,
rings ? I then got a compression tester and took the
intake away to reach the
rear bank.
Compression test :
#1 (115psi) #2 (106) #3 (105) #6 (126)
showed low figures put in an acceptable
range. Only #6 was good (over
120psi). But I know that a good car should read
figures around 135-145psi !!
#5 was bad with only 98psi but #4 was dead with
only 66psi. The mechanic then
checked the compression again with a tool that
lets him apply pressure to the
cylinder that pressed the piston down to BDC. He
was then able to
"hear" the pressure blowing out to the intake on the front.
This
disappeared as he cleaned the parts by injecting a special acid
fluid
directly into the fuel rails. I made a retest of the compression
afterwards and
the figures where only a few psi better.
Stetoscopic
inspection :
#4 caused so much headache that we decided to screw in a
stetoscope to check the
pistons and the walls. We then did this on all cyls
to be sure. I was happy not
to find any damage but we found a lot clog from
the too much burnt oil on the
pistons.
Fire :
After installing the
G-Force ECU I got a loud pop under the hood and knew that
the y-pipe popped
off (the first time for me) But as I rolled out blue smoke
came out of the
hood and I was lucky to have a fire extinguisher handy. The rear
bank was on
fire but I was happy to kill it within seconds by spraying sand
allover the
engine (urgh). The car then went back to Mitsu for the fire
inspection and we
thought about a broken turbo-housing that spilled oil over the
manifold that
then got ignited. Fortunately we found out it was a plastic bag
with
something in there that was stuck over the y-pipe that got burned and
caused
the fire. I never though that this can burn so grassy. Nothing was hurt
on
the car due to the little $9 extinguisher !!!!
Turbo :
As the car was
at Mitsu again, I told them to take the engine apart to find out
what the
problem is. The first they found was the rear turbo leaking oil into
the
piping. The mechanic told me that this is because the heat problem but
they
never had any problem with them yet (yeah but nobody boosted it up like
me in
Europe). No problem as the new ones are lying on the floor
:)
Pistons, rings :
First they took the rear bank apart. Here the
results :
#2: broken ring, no damage to wall
#4: both rings and part of
piston between rings broken, small damage to wall
#6: rings worn, no damage
to wall
Afterwards they also took the front bank apart :
#1: broken
ring, no damage to wall
#3: ok
#5: ring broken, piston had small cracks !!
no damage to wall
Head, valves, gaskets :
They measured out the heads
and found absolutely no problem with them. Even the
gaskets looked brandnew.
Also the valves and valve-train is 100% perfect.
Unfortunately we do only
have a few shops that can do a polish or porting job
here in Switzerland. And
they want about $2000 for this !! No, too expensive for
only a few
horses.
Finally :
The Mitsu experts say that the car must have had
very heavy bad knock. IMHO, due
to the leaking sunroof on high speeds I never
heard anything as I drove around
290km/h on the German Autobahns. But I'm
sure I killed it on such high power,
long run, high temp circumstances
:(
Before the rebuilt was started, I got an offer on a forged aluminum
piston set
for $850. Mitsu then told me that the original pistons are good
aluminum ones
and that they will be balanced and sent to a special shop for
preparing. I don't
know what this shop did but they looked liked forged ones
afterwards ;) I will
pay about $95 per piston and another $80 for rings and
pinions set. To bad the
pistons are in now before I saw the JE piston post :(
But Mitsu told me not to
give any warranty on their work if I want not
original Mitsu pistons. Also we
decided not to overbore the walls more than
it was needed due to the very small
damage to the #4 cylinder. Therefore I
have again original sized pistons sitting
in the bores. The car should still
be capable for enough horses !
Hey, would you believe that a car with such a
damage still is able to produce
around 340 horses ??? Mine did
...
I'll be taking some pictures of the parts today and on monday and add
them to my
pages pretty soon. Of course I have to gather everything together
to be able to
document what really went wrong and I hope it will then help
everyone to get the
most out of their cars without any damage and costs. BTW,
the whole rebuild
costs me $2800. To be honest, I expected much more
:)
Take care, guys !
Roger
-----------------------
Roger
Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri
Oct 23 05:09:59 1998
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From:
"=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?=" <vr4@bahnhof.se>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Clutch and AMG S60
race
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 14:09:19 +0200
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Hi
My clutch have now started to slip after only
10000 miles.
I planned to buy a new one from Centerforce or Clutchmaster.
Chien (nexus) told me that the clutchmaster stage 3 will hold for more miles
than the Centerforce.
If you are interested in a new clutch look at
http://cyber1.virtualrep.com/perfintl/search.tpl These guys sell the Centerforce
clutch for 500$, that's a really good price. (Nexus sell the same for 650! Sorry
Chien) I talked to the manager and he was very helpful.
BUT I have
deceided to go with a custom solution. I will use a cinter (not sure about the
word but it's non organic) disc from a ford (cosworth) that have the same spline
size. I will use the stock preasure plate. The flywheel will be resurfaced and
the preasure plate will be flat grinded.
This setup will hold alot more power
and will hold many miles. The thudding sound problem will also be solved with
this kind of disc.
The total cost for me will be ~350$.
BTW our
preasure plates press 1200kg and that is very very much. That kind of preasure
shall hold 700hp with a good disc !!!
I let you all know how it work
out.
BTW I raced a Mercedes AMG S60 yesterday. I was faster but
that monster was really fast. They have 381 HP and the same weight that we have.
His rear wheels where slipping in the curves at over 100 miles/h, Very
scaaaary... I really love my awd. If you don't have any mods doen to your car
you better look the other way if you get challenged by one of these
sleepers.
/Mikael http://www.bahnhof.se/~vr4
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri
Oct 23 06:05:04 1998
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From:
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To:
<stealth@starnet.net>
Subject: Team3S: good www page
Date: Fri, 23
Oct 1998 15:04:04 +0200
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Hi
If you are interested in learning how cars work
then have a look at http://www.autoshop-online.com/auto101.html
This is
basic info but worth reading.
These are the topics that the page
covers.
Braking / ABS Systems
Cooling Systems
Electricial Systems
A/C & Heating
Systems
Engine Systems
Exhaust Systems
Fuel &
Intake Systems
Suspension & Steering
Drive Train
/Mikael http://www.bahnhof.se/~vr4
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Oct 23 10:21:29 1998
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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 10:18:37
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Engine rebuild update
(long!)
References: <3630708C.77FF107C@swissonline.ch>
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R.G. wrote:
> The Mitsu experts say that
the car must have had very heavy bad knock. IMHO, due
> to the leaking
sunroof on high speeds I never heard anything as I drove around
> 290km/h
on the German Autobahns. But I'm sure I killed it on such high power,
>
long run, high temp circumstances :(
Have you considered cutting a couple
tasteful intakes into the front air dam and running
cooling vents into the
engine compartment from them? It seems with a rubuild in sight,
that now some
cooling modifications might be ideal for what appears to be a problem
with
our cars (heat build up inside the engine compartment.) Has anyone
tackled this idea
before other than the notion of (hot) air extractors
to replace the hood blisters in
Generation 1 modles. (Boz
extractors)
I'll be taking some pictures of the parts today and on monday
and add them to my
> pages pretty soon. Of course I have to gather
everything together to be able to
> document what really went wrong and I
hope it will then help everyone to get the
> most out of their cars
without any damage and costs. BTW, the whole rebuild
> costs me $2800. To
be honest, I expected much more :)
>
Now that's a pretty damn
decent price Roger. Why cann't all dealers be as decent, or
obviously as
knowledgeable as the people you deal with!
Darc
92 Stealth
TT...still anxiously awaiting arrival of my BC.
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998
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From: Jim Matthews
<matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Clutch and AMG S60 race
References:
<016401bdfe7d$f91741e0$169f0fc1@mikaela.corechange.se>
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Mikael Åkesson wrote:
>
> My clutch
have now started to slip after only 10000 miles.
This is consistent with
the experiences of many others I have
seen post to the old list.
Clutchmasters does not have the
best reputation.
My question is, just
how bad is the stock clutch? I for one
have been very impressed with my
stock clutch, which now has
over 65,000 miles, 20,000 miles of which has been
with the AVC-R.
The only problem I've ever experienced is with bad
launches.
If I over-slip the clutch, it will not grab. But if I
launch
properly, it seems just fine, even now with this much mileage.
Of
course at some point I plan to be pushing more horsepower
through the
drivetrain, so perhaps it wouldn't fare as well...
But when it comes time
to replace this clutch, I will be VERY
tempted to go with OEM. From
what I've read, the best aftermarket
clutch is probably the Centerforce
Dual-Friction. Though
I must say that the Cosworth system Mikael is
looking into
sounds pretty intriguing...
Regarding the AMG, I
encountered one a few months ago.
We both seemed interested in seeing how the
cars would
stack up, but we were on a slow, crowded road along the
Rhein
River and had no opportunities to, ah, you know. ;-)
Glad to hear you
edged him out, Mikael!
-Jim
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden,
Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps
ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
*** 3000GT-Stealth
International (3Si) Member #0030
***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94
Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension,
Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84%
BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark
plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided
brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph
G-Tech
Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri
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Date:
Fri, 23 Oct 1998 18:41:14 +0100
From: Jim Matthews
<matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine rebuild update
References:
<01BDF8FD.7DE64820.cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
<3628228A.485EFCF6@bc.sympatico.ca>
<362FA691.60943134@swissonline.ch>
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R.G. wrote:
>
> Furthermore, the Blitz DSBC
has two settings that allows to get the most
> potential out of the
car. [ ... ]
> In the near future, we'll be able to hook up the
diag-system to Jims
> car as well to find out how the Apexi works
:)
I look forward to it! Let me know when you're ready.
Perhaps
we could also arrange for a day with Mr. Dyno while I'm
down
there...
> Pistons, rings :
> #4: both rings and
part of piston between rings broken, small damage to wall
So will they
just hone this puppy, or leave it as is? From
your description it
sounds like they don't plan to do much
to the block.
Regarding the
knock at high speeds - why didn't the knock
sensor prevent this? I
suppose I run the same risk. I'm
not sure I could hear knock at 150+
mph even without a
sunroof! I guess your new diag-system could be
pretty
revealing...
Glad to hear things ended up being more affordable
than you
(or I, for that matter!) anticipated. So I guess you
won't
be forced to drive the Camaro this winter afterall!
:-)
-Jim
P.S.- Remember to save the good 9B! We need to
consult with
Corky and figure out how to put it on my Honda Odyssey!
:-)
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de
(64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
***
3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030
***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94
Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension,
Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84%
BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark
plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided
brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph
G-Tech
Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Engine rebuild update (long!)
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In a message dated 98-10-23 13:23:10 EDT, you
write:
<< > The Mitsu experts say that the car must have had
very heavy bad knock.
IMHO, due
> to the leaking sunroof on high speeds
I never heard anything as I drove
around
> 290km/h on the German
Autobahns. But I'm sure I killed it on such high
power,
> long run,
high temp circumstances :( >>
Yikes.. do you have an EGT
gague? I have the TRE MASC and in 4th gear on the
Highway I notice the
EGT's really start to climb. What injectors do you have?
With my 15G's
and 560's I run 99% injector duty cylce in 4th gear at any boost
over
17psi.
One really helpful tool everyone might be interested in, even if
you have a
VPC, is the TRE MASC head unit. You can buy just the display
which will come
with two EGT sensors, hookup for injector duty cylce, and 02
hookups. It has
a fairly compact (about 4inches by 2inches) display
that I mounted right above
my steering column so I can watch the EGT's, pulse
widths, and my mv's on
extended HW runs. VERY helpful tool..
Mike Mahaffey - '94 Stealth tt Best et: 11.6 Best mph:
119.96
ps - how come nobody told me about this list? Was there a
post to the regular
Stealth list I missed?
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Oct 23 11:01:34 1998
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Message-ID: <013c01bdfeaf$6d07c6c0$3647d6ce@jeffrey>
From:
"Jeffrey Young" <jefyoung@ix.netcom.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Engine
Cooling
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 12:01:57 -0600
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Darc;
Since I have replaced my
fog lights with some PIAA 1400, I now have space in
the fog light openings to
see if I can route some air into the engine
compartment.
This will be in conjunction with the Bozz Speed bonnet
scoops, that I have
already installed.
Jeffrey
92
RT/Turbo
www.omega-sw.com/stealth
Darc wrote:
>Have you
considered cutting a couple tasteful intakes into the front air
dam and
running
>cooling vents into the engine compartment from them? It seems
with a
rubuild in sight,
>that now some cooling modifications might be
ideal for what appears to be a
problem with
>our cars (heat build up
inside the engine compartment.) Has anyone tackled
this idea
>before
other than the notion of (hot) air extractors to replace the
hood
blisters in
>Generation 1 modles. (Boz extractors)
>
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
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info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Oct 23 11:14:34 1998
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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 13:14:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis
Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Fog Lights Question (was: Re: Team3S: Engine Cooling)
In-Reply-To:
<013c01bdfeaf$6d07c6c0$3647d6ce@jeffrey>
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Do you have pix posted somewhere of your PIAA
1400's? Are you satisfied
with their light pattern and output?
Thanks
Dennis Moore
stealth@kiva.net
What's the difference
between a Mechanical Engineer and a Civil Engineer?
Mechanical Engineers
build Weapons, Civil Engineers build Targets!
On Fri, 23 Oct 1998,
Jeffrey Young wrote:
> Darc;
>
> Since I have replaced my
fog lights with some PIAA 1400, I now have space in
[snip]
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri
Oct 23 11:18:44 1998
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To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Under-Hood Temps (Was: Engine
rebuild update)
References: <3630708C.77FF107C@swissonline.ch>
<3630BA6D.318C195F@bc.sympatico.ca>
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All:
I haven't solved the problem, but have found a
(minor) help re:
under-hood temps. Remove the rubber weatherstrip that
runs along the
top of the firewall, mating with the back of the hood.
This allows air
that enters from under the engine to pass by the engine and
exit over
the windshield. Be gentle when removing the rubber from the
plastic
"Tee" fasteners - the strip will rip if pulled
hard.
I suppose now that the track season is over and the monsoon season
is
starting here in the Pacific Northwet, I really should put mine
back.
Rich
Emerald Green 94 R/T
wce@bc.sympatico.ca
wrote:
<snippity, clippity, chop>
> [...] Has anyone
tackled this idea before other than
> the notion of (hot) air
extractors to replace the hood
> blisters in Generation 1 modles. (Boz
extractors)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri
Oct 23 11:22:19 1998
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: boost lag,
engine rebuild update
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:22:56 -0700
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stealth-3000gt
The stock ECU combats knock in two ways When knock
is first detected the
ECU retards timing. Usually this is enough.
When retarding the timing
doesn't cut it the next step is to signal the stock
boost solenoid to open
the wastegates. On a car equipped with an
aftermarket electronic boost
controller this feature of course has no
effect.
Furthermore, it should be common knowledge that for the VR4 knock
WILL occur
just above 15-16 PSI on high grade (92 or so) octane fuel and
perhaps
earlier depending upon the operating environment and the actual
formulation
of fuel used. Not all 92 octanes are created equally.
That means that even
1.1 BAR is too much for normally availble pump
fuel. I know Roger had been
running up to 1.3 BAR on pump fuel prior to
his extensive dyno testing so
the condition of the engine shouldn't really be
that surprising.
There are places on the internet to dig up the formulae
for determining the
detonation point of a given grade of fuel for a given
cylinder pressure if
people want to research this themselves.
In the
USA octane is determined by the (R + M)/2 method. The research
and
motor values are two completely different methods of determining octane
and
averaging them is a somewhat fairer method. Basically though, the
higher
the M portion of the equation typically the better for knock
prevention.
Another way to combat knock under high cylinder pressures is
through the use
of water and/or alcohol injection. This is an ancient
trick from the hot
rod days. Water has a higher specific heat than
alcohol so it is better in
general but alcohol has the added benefit of both
being combustible and it
homogenizes with water. Many people run a
mixture of the two. There are a
number of benefits to this approach
that may be best left to another thread.
Water/acohol injection would allow
one to run high boost like we all want
without needing to be quite as
concerned with the grade of fuel.
Regards,
Barry
>
-----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Jim Matthews
>
Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 10:41 AM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine
rebuild update
>
>
> R.G. wrote:
> >
> >
Furthermore, the Blitz DSBC has two settings that allows to get the most
>
> potential out of the car. [ ... ]
> > In the near future,
we'll be able to hook up the diag-system to Jims
> > car as well to
find out how the Apexi works :)
>
> I look forward to it! Let
me know when you're ready. Perhaps
> we could also arrange for a day
with Mr. Dyno while I'm down
> there...
>
>
> >
Pistons, rings :
> > #4: both rings and part of piston between rings
broken, small
> damage to wall
>
> So will they just hone this
puppy, or leave it as is? From
> your description it sounds like
they don't plan to do much
> to the block.
>
> Regarding the
knock at high speeds - why didn't the knock
> sensor prevent this? I
suppose I run the same risk. I'm
> not sure I could hear knock at
150+ mph even without a
> sunroof! I guess your new diag-system
could be pretty
> revealing...
>
> Glad to hear things ended
up being more affordable than you
> (or I, for that matter!)
anticipated. So I guess you won't
> be forced to drive the Camaro
this winter afterall! :-)
>
> -Jim
>
> P.S.-
Remember to save the good 9B! We need to consult with
> Corky and
figure out how to put it on my Honda Odyssey! :-)
>
>
--
> Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
> matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de
(64 Kbps ISDN)
>
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
>
> *** 3000GT-Stealth
International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
>
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>
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From
owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Oct 23 11:39:56 1998
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From: "Todd D
Shelton" <tds@brightok.net>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: boost lag,
engine rebuild update
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 13:43:22 -0500
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I would be curious to know if ANYONE has
actually
ever heard knock in a turbo S/3K?
(Not counting Roger on the dyno with a
s-scope)
I'm stuck with 91 octane pump gas and have
yet to AUDIBLY detect
knock yet I know it
has occurred. The Fbody guys have
aftermarket
instruments to monitor such occurrences - it
would be nice to
have the same for S/3K's.
Ignition timing on modified S/3K turbos
appears
to be a very 'gray' area so far. Now that I have
the=20
means to actually alter ignition timing it would
be advantageous to
become better informed
before I just start 'twisting knobs'.
-
tds
--------------------------------------------------------------=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Matthews
<matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Friday,
October 23, 1998 12:37 PM
Subject: Team3S: RE: boost lag,
engine rebuild update
=20
=20
=20
Regarding the knock at high speeds - why didn't the
knock
sensor prevent this? I suppose I run the same
risk. I'm
not sure I could hear knock at 150+ mph
even without a
sunroof! I guess your new diag-system
could be pretty
revealing...
=20
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3
HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META
content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1
=
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML
4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY
bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I would
be curious to know if ANYONE
=
has</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000
size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>actually ever =
heard knock
in=20
a turbo S/3K?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>(Not counting Roger on the dyno with a
=
s-scope)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I'm
stuck with 91 octane pump gas and
=
have</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>yet to
AUDIBLY detect knock yet I know
=
it</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>has
occurred. The Fbody guys
have=20
aftermarket</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>instruments to monitor such occurrences -
=
it</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>would be
nice to have the same for
=
S/3K's.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>Ignition timing on modified S/3K turbos
=
appears</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>to be a
very 'gray' area so far. Now that I
=
have=20
the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>means to actually alter
=
ignition timing
it=20
would</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>be
advantageous to become better
=
informed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>before
I just start 'twisting knobs'.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>- tds</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>--------------------------------------------------------------&n=
bsp;</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT:
=
5px">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial
size=3D2><B>-----Original
=
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
</B>Jim Matthews <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de">matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.=
de</A>><BR><B>To:=20
</B><A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com">stealth-3000gt@list.sirius=
.com</A>=20
<<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com">stealth-3000gt@list.sirius=
.com</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
</B>Friday, October 23, 1998 12:37 PM<BR><B>Subject:
</B>Team3S: RE: =
boost=20
lag, engine rebuild
update<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR>Regarding the
=
knock at=20
high speeds - why didn't the
knock<BR>sensor prevent this? I =
suppose
I=20
run the same risk. I'm<BR>not sure I
could hear knock at 150+ =
mph even=20
without
a<BR>sunroof! I guess your new diag-system could
be=20
pretty<BR>revealing...<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_007A_01BDFE8B.19A20640--
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: boost lag,
engine rebuild update
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:55:04 -0700
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HKS makes a unique knock monitor. It uses two microphones, one
to monitor
engine noise and one to monitor ambient noise. The two
signals are
differenced to come up with what should hopefully be anomalous
noise. An
earphone allows you to hear the result. I haven't seen
one for sale yet but
they might have it on their website.
I can't say
that I have actually ever heard knock on the VR4 either, just
experienced and
withnessed the results of it. I raised the boost above 15
psi a pound
at a time until I detected the first signs of detonation on the
plugs and
backed off .5 psi or so. This was 17.5 psi and at that boost
there were
just the slightest traces of detonation. Not good, but
(hopefully)
acceptable for short bursts.
Adding 1 can of STP octane booster to 12
gallons of 92 pump allowed me to
run 20 psi without noticeable signs of
severe detonation.based on reading
the plugs. This is not the most
reliable determinant so who knows what the
internals look like.
Must
be the year for rebuilds. My engine developed a rather nasty
sounding
knocking over a week ago. I suspect either a dropped valve (a
failure
unrelated to detonation) or worse. Recommendations for an
oustanding
machine shop in the Phoenix area are welcomed
;)
Barry
-----Original
Message-----
From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of Todd D Shelton
Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998
11:43 AM
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE:
boost lag, engine rebuild update
I would be
curious to know if ANYONE has
actually ever heard knock in
a turbo S/3K?
(Not counting Roger on the dyno with a
s-scope)
I'm stuck with 91 octane pump gas and
have
yet to AUDIBLY detect knock yet I know
it
has occurred. The Fbody guys have
aftermarket
instruments to monitor such occurrences -
it
would be nice to have the same for
S/3K's.
Ignition timing on modified S/3K turbos
appears
to be a very 'gray' area so far. Now that I
have the
means to actually alter ignition timing it
would
be advantageous to become better
informed
before I just start 'twisting
knobs'.
-
tds
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BDFE7B.F8BCD7C0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META
content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1
=
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML
4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY
bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN
class=3D880264618-23101998><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial
=
size=3D2>HKS=20
makes a unique knock monitor. It uses two
microphones, one to =
monitor=20
engine noise and one to monitor ambient
noise. The two signals are =
differenced to come up with what
should hopefully be anomalous =
noise. An=20
earphone allows you
to hear the result. I haven't seen one for =
sale yet=20
but
they might have it on their
website.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
class=3D880264618-23101998><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial
=
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
class=3D880264618-23101998><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial
=
size=3D2>I=20
can't say that I have actually ever heard knock on the
VR4 either, just=20
experienced and withnessed the results of it. I
raised the boost =
above 15=20
psi a pound at a time until I detected the
first signs of detonation on =
the=20
plugs and backed off .5 psi or
so. This was 17.5 psi and at that =
boost=20
there were just the
slightest traces of detonation. Not good, but=20
(hopefully)
acceptable for short
bursts.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
class=3D880264618-23101998><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial
=
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
class=3D880264618-23101998><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial
=
size=3D2>Adding=20
1 can of STP octane booster to 12 gallons of 92
pump allowed me to run =
20 psi=20
without noticeable signs of severe
detonation.based on reading the =
plugs. =20
This is not the most
reliable determinant so who knows what the =
internals
look=20
like.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
class=3D880264618-23101998><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial
=
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
class=3D880264618-23101998><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial
=
size=3D2>Must=20
be the year for rebuilds. My engine
developed a rather nasty =
sounding=20
knocking over a week ago.
I suspect either a dropped valve (a =
failure=20
unrelated to detonation)
or worse. Recommendations for an =
oustanding=20
machine shop in
the Phoenix area are welcomed
;)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
class=3D880264618-23101998><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial
=
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN
class=3D880264618-23101998><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial
=
size=3D2>Barry</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:
#0000ff solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT:
=
5px">
<DIV
class=3DOutlookMessageHeader><FONT face=3D"Times New
Roman"=20
size=3D2>-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com=20
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]<B>On Behalf Of</B>
=
Todd D=20
Shelton<BR><B>Sent:</B>
Friday, October 23, 1998 11:43
=
AM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Team3S:
RE: =
boost lag,=20
engine rebuild
update<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I would be curious to know if
=
ANYONE=20
has</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>actually =
ever
heard=20
knock in a turbo
S/3K?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>(Not counting Roger on the dyno with a=20
s-scope)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>I'm stuck with 91 octane pump gas and
=
have</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>yet to AUDIBLY detect knock yet I know
=
it</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>has occurred. The Fbody guys have=20
aftermarket</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>instruments to monitor such occurrences -
=
it</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>would be nice to have the same for
=
S/3K's.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>Ignition timing on modified S/3K turbos=20
appears</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>to be a very 'gray' area so far. Now that =
I
have=20
the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>means to actually alter
=
ignition=20
timing it
would</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>be advantageous to become better
=
informed</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>before I just start 'twisting
=
knobs'.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>-
tds</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BDFE7B.F8BCD7C0--
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subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri
Oct 23 12:19:29 1998
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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 21:18:57
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From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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To:
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Subject: Team3S: Re: Tweaking the Blitz DSBC /
Diag Tool
References:
<024d01bdfc12$a5c9ab30$169f0fc1@mikaela.corechange.se>
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> I use the Blitz DSBC and I'm very pleased with
it.
Mikael said it all !!
> You can also set scramble mode but
I haven't used this feature because I feel
> that my system is working
100% anyway. So I think that would just make things
> more
complicated.
I use the scramble mode to be able to control the time &
amount of Ratio to be
reduced when reaching the limiter. It also works in
conjunction with the normal
limiter. I learned that using a higher Ratio but
somewhat lower Gain, the
scramble works "smoother". With lower
Ratio settings, the boost difference is
too big and also overboost is
higher.
> You will not have any use for higher boost than 1.15 bar
because the engine
> will then produce knock and that will retard the
ignition and the power will
> get lost.
Well, it depends how
healthy the car is :(
> Please note that we all have used very
different settings on our Blitz
> controllers so you must test what is
best for your car.
Very true ! Fortunately, I was able to test this on
the dyno on full load and I
saw what potential this thing has. I just
increased the Ratio a little bit and
saw the power figures increasing (also
knock after 1.05bars)
> Hope this helps (if not then go visit Roger in
Switzerland and he will tune
> it for you)
Sure, and everybody can
get a compression test too (bhuaaa)
As promissed, I'm currently
developing a diag system for the car. It isn't
really for our cars as it's
only a Microcontroller with some A/D ports that can
read voltages and stores
the values (10 per second). It has the same display as
the TRE MASC but has
some more ports for anything else. It is able to read 8
signals :
- O2
sensor 1
- O2 sensor 2
- rpm
- knock
- injectors
- boost
controller solenoid
- intake manifold pressure (with sensor)
Later, I
plan to add other ports to read more signals :
- EGT 1 (with sensor)
-
EGT 2 (with sensor)
- pressure before IC (with sensor)
- pressure after IC
(with sensor)
- Temp before IC (with sensor)
- Temp after IC (with
sensor)
- any other temp sensor
The produced data will be collected
and then can be transmitted to a PC via RS
232 (serial port). The PC can also
be connected directly to the diag tool to
have almost unlimited storage. I
currently don't know if the display is useful
as it takes too much time to
write figures out and therefore reading values per
second would be lowered !
The data can be received by the PC via a simple
terminal program and then be
stored as a text file. It then can be read by Excel
and displayed as graphs.
It would be nice to make more out of this but I just
don't have the time for
this project.
My earlier ideas to get the data out of the ECU went to
Nirvana as it's
impossible to get the desired information on how to get the
data out of it. I
know the protocol as well as some figures out of it but the
ECU never responded
:(
Later,
Roger, 3000GT TT
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri
Oct 23 14:31:55 1998
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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 17:29:26
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Subject: Team3S: Re: Clutch (was: ...and AMG
S60 race)
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<016401bdfe7d$f91741e0$169f0fc1@mikaela.corechange.se>
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Mikael,
I was in the same position you're now, and
here's what I found out about
clutches in the last 6 months...
RPS -
The new Kevlar one "sounds very good on paper" (I'm quoting
some
one here and he knows who he is.) big problem is it never was released.
I actually had one in my hands and before I got to install it I
received
an EMERGENCY call from RPS telling me that they were recalling the
unit
due to some faulty materials. So I returned it and started looking
for
another solution.... :(
The current RPS clutch I've heard too many
times how it just shattered
during a launch!
Centerforce - I think
this one is a good one but not sure how long it
will last given more than 450
HP. So if that's all you want this is a
good choice. Just have to
be careful with the break-in period.
ClutchMasters - I've heard of only
one 3S customer where they have
failed. I'm not sure if it was stage II
or III. But as far as DSM
people, they have failed or died prematurely
in a few occasions. A
little bit overpriced too. But according to
Henry (I believe) this
clutch has worked great on his 3S car. I think
certain stages (the
lower ones in particular) are the ones that fail.
So in MHO, I think
this is an OK company if you go with the most aggressive
stage.
ACT - I have not heard from anyone with a 3S car that has
installed it,
but as far as the DSMs go, this is the clutch to go with.
They have 2
different disks. A street disk with springs and some sort
of carbon or
organic material that will hold in the 400+ (I can't remember
the exact
number) foot-pounds of torque. This is with a 2600 lb
pressure plate.
They also have their racing disk - solid (no springs) and
with a six -
puck design with copper/ceramic pads. They claimed that it
will hold up
to 584 ft-lb of torque with the 2600 lb pressure
plate. This is what
I'm installing on mine as soon as my
transmission is finished. I'll let
you know sometime in the next two
weeks (hopefully!) how this clutch
turns out to be.
I hope this
helps...
Jose
Mikael Åkesson wrote:
>
>
Hi
>
> My clutch have now started to slip after only 10000
miles.
>
> I planned to buy a new one from Centerforce or
Clutchmaster. Chien (nexus) told me that the clutchmaster stage 3 will hold for
more miles than the Centerforce.
>
><SNIP>
> BUT I
have deceided to go with a custom solution. I will use a cinter (not sure about
the word but it's non organic) disc from a ford (cosworth) that have the same
spline size. I will use the stock preasure plate. The flywheel will be
resurfaced and the preasure plate will be flat grinded.
><SNIP>
> BTW our preasure plates press 1200kg and that is very very much. That
kind of preasure shall hold 700hp with a good disc !!!
>
><SNIP>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri
Oct 23 14:47:22 1998
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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 16:47:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis
Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Team3S: Another Clutch Question
In-Reply-To:
<3630F536.254D6B10@engin.umich.edu>
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Aside from the obvious signs of slippage, like
5mph@6000RPM in first gear,
what other clues will your clutch give you that
it might be going. For a
long time, I've suspected my clutch may be on
its last legs, but I haven't
had the big death clue (like mentioned
above). How do I know if my clutch
is still kosher?
Dennis
Moore
stealth@kiva.net
There are two kinds of ocean-going vessels in
this world:
submarines and targets!
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Oct 23 15:20:13 1998
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: Clutch
(sepcifically new RPS)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 15:20:57 -0700
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I have the latest verion of the RPS kevlar clutch in a
box. This new
version is the final version (barring any new problems)
which supposedly
will be available to the general public.
It looks
good in real life. It is also very light which should make it
easier on
the synchros.
The week old version shipped to me is supposedly one
generation beyond the
clutch currently in the RPS 700 RWHP Supra TT which
uses the same diameter
friction plate. According to Rob Smith, it was
tested by an independant
friction materials testing laboratory on the East
coast. According to them
it was "the best they had ever
tested" in terms of grip and wear including
ceramic, semi-metallic, full
metal and more conventional materials. Real
world longevity is, of
course, yet to be proven since it is a brand new
product.
60' times on
the Supra were consistent 1.5 with no top end slip. That's on
a 700 HP
RWD car with wrinkle wall slicks squeezing 100 shot of nitrous out
of the
hole. We'll see how it holds up to the demands of AWD with more than
a
few HP behind it.
Supposedly it is slippable without fading and actually
gains grip with heat.
This characteristic is not unlike the clutches I used
on my race bikes.
Again, we'll see how it works on the street.
I have
destroyed two of the old conventional style RPS clutches and I do
not
consider myself inherently hard on clutches. I think RPS pressure
plates
are great. Their earlier friction plates were fabricated by
ACT. I do not
believe they were ever intended to handle in excess of
500 HP. I bet they
work great and last a long time at more moderate
power levels. The old ones
were definitely well behaved so long as you
didn't smoke them. Even if you
did they would eventually come
back.
This new clutch is very promising, on paper, and according to Rob's
results
after several months of testing.
Now if only I had a running
car in which to test it we could see if it
stands up to the claims
:\
Barry
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of josesini
> Sent:
Friday, October 23, 1998 2:29 PM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Team3S: Re: Clutch (was: ...and
AMG S60 race)
>
>
>
Mikael,
<snip>
> RPS - The new Kevlar one
"sounds very good on paper" (I'm quoting some
> one here and he
knows who he is.) big problem is it never was released.
> I actually had
one in my hands and before I got to install it I received
> an EMERGENCY
call from RPS telling me that they were recalling the unit
> due to some
faulty materials. So I returned it and started looking for
> another
solution.... :(
> The current RPS clutch I've heard too many times how it
just shattered
> during a
launch!
<snip>
>
> I hope this
helps...
>
> Jose
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Oct 23 15:36:12 1998
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To:
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Engine
Cooling
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<013c01bdfeaf$6d07c6c0$3647d6ce@jeffrey>
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stealth-3000gt
Jeffrey Young wrote:
> Since I have
replaced my fog lights with some PIAA 1400, I now have space in
> the fog
light openings to see if I can route some air into the engine
>
compartment. This will be in conjunction with the Bozz Speed
bonnet
> scoops, that I have already installed.
>
Good
deal...let us know how this goes, and if you notice a drop in engine
compartment
temperature. Are you just leaving the fog lamp openings as is, or
do you plan on routing
the air??
Darc
92 Stealth TT
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri
Oct 23 15:51:38 1998
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1998
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From:
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To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Engine
Cooling
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 16:52:52 -0600
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I am "planning" on using a
small amount of ducting to deflect the air upward
into the compartment.
We'll see how well it works. As it is now, I'm sure
the majority of the
additional air flow is deflected back down towards the
ground, considering
the proximity of the openings.
I have noticed a fair amount of heat
radiating out from the bonnet scoops
after a hard run. Assuming that
the design of the scoops allows for
additional heat to be drawn out by the
airflow over the top of the scoops,
the introduction of more air (from the
fog openings) should increase this
venting process.
Jeffrey
92
RT/Turbo
www.omega-sw.com/stealth
>
>Good deal...let us know
how this goes, and if you notice a drop in
engine
compartment
>temperature. Are you just leaving the fog lamp
openings as is, or do you
plan on routing
>the
air??
>
>Darc
>
>92 Stealth TT
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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Date:
Fri, 23 Oct 1998 15:48:30 -0700
To: stealth@starnet.net
From: Dave Allison
<dave@languys.com>
Subject: Team3S: Dynoing the AWD
3000GT/Stealth
In-Reply-To:
<3630BFBA.96747B82@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
References:
<01BDF8FD.7DE64820.cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
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Many of you have been just as frustrated as I when it
comes to adding
upgrades to our cars and having to judge the performance by
"seat of the
pants" feedback. Unless you live in Switzerland where
they seem to have
more AWD dyno's than they do 7-11's in the States (hiya
Roger!), you're
kinda S.O.L.
The G-Tech Pro is a nice unit and it
gives you a ballpark figure of
horsepower, but it does not produce a dyno
chart of torque and horsepower.
So I found myself looking for some way to
peek behind the curtain and get
an idea of what was happening to the
performance of my engine.
I think I found it.
Some of you may
raise an eyebrow, but trust me, it works. Besides, if
you've got nothing...
then something is better than nothing! :) I ran
across this item while doing
keyword searches on the Internet. It's called
the, "Home Dyno". I
know... stupid name. But it really works. What a
standard chassis dynamometer
is is basically a device that applies a
specified load to the engine via
drums beneath the wheels and a inductive
pickup which attatches to the spark
plug wire to measure the work being
performed by the engine under these
loaded conditions.
Home Dyno substitutes the weight of your car for the
drums under you
wheels. It factors in the work required to move the weight of
your car,
drive axle ratio, test gear ratio, tire aspect, tire diameter,
drag
coefficient, drivetrain loss, frontal area, and even the
barometric
pressure, temperature, and relative humidity for those who love to
brag
about their "corrected times". :)
The way it works is
you connect the supplied inductive pickup to a spark
plug wire and run the
other end of the wire into the cabin where the cable
terminates in a
1/8" jack. This end you plug into either a microcassete
recorder,
minidisc recorder, or (with an adapter) a camcorder. I'd
recommend the
camcorder or minidisc recorder, since there are no issies
with playback vs.
recording speed. Then you find yourself a nice stretch of
road and ease the
car into 2nd gear, creeping along with no gas applied.
Hit record and hit the
gas. Take the car up to redline and perhaps even the
rev limiter. Slow down
and hit stop. Connect the recorder to the line in on
your PC's soundcard and
record it as a WAV file. once the run is recorded
as a WAV file, it is up to
Home Dyno to analyze the signal. With a few
mods, HKS exhaust & HKS Super
Power Flo intake, I got
this:
http://www.languys.com/dave/336hp.jpg
Not bad, eh? Actually
it's within 1HP of what HKS predicts with these two
items fitted to the car.
Here's the specs I plugged in during the analysis
portion. The drivetrain
loss is taken from Roger Gerl's observations during
actual AWD dynoing in
Europe. The rest of the numbers are from the
Mitsubishi service
manuals.
http://www.languys.com/dave/336chart.jpg
I think it's a
great way to get more definitive feedback on what each
performance mod does
to the power of the car. Makes it feel a bit better to
drop a $1000 for an
item if you can see the results on paper. If anyone has
any questions, feel
free to send me some private mail and I'll try my best
to answer them
all.
Seeyaz!
Dave Allison
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Oct 23 16:36:37 1998
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Dynoing the AWD
3000GT/Stealth
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 16:36:40 -0700
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stealth-3000gt
Excellent information Dave.
I saw this setup a
while back. There's no reason it shouldn't be accurate
given correct
inputs as you appear to have done. Cool idea. One of
those
"Gee, I shoulda...".
Anyway, another approach is to
record the ignition on any high quality
recording device. A digital or
conventional camcorder ideally with PCM
sound quality works great too.
That way you avoid having to lug a PC around
in your car. Same steps as
you describe except record to tape and playback
the tape to the PC to create
the WAV file.
Here's the link:
http://www.charm.net/~mchaney/homedyno/dynokit.htm
More interesting home
brew dyno projects are out there too. Here's one
more:
http://crash.ihug.co.nz/~geoff/dyno.htm
There's a guy in England who
given your specifications will design rollers
and plans for your
application. You'd then get the drums built
professionally and go from
there. For $1000-2000 plus some software and
computer equipment you
could have your very own inertia dyno.
Someone else was trying out a
driveshaft dyno. Same concept really except
it measures the rotation of
the driveshaft. Any news on that
experiment?
Regards,
Barry
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFrom
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To:
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<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Clutch (was:
...and AMG S60 race)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 20:00:11 -0400
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>ClutchMasters - I've heard of only one 3S customer
where they have
>failed. I'm not sure if it was stage II or
III. But as far as DSM
>people, they have failed or died prematurely
in a few occasions. A
>little bit overpriced too. But
according to Henry (I believe) this
>clutch has worked great on his 3S
car. I think certain stages (the
>lower ones in particular) are the
ones that fail. So in MHO, I think
>this is an OK company if you go
with the most aggressive stage.
I had a Stage II (full-face Kevlar) slip,
glaze, and die on me last spring,
with about 6000 miles on it. It happened at
the strip, on an abominably hot
day (100+ degrees) and I made a few passes
without enough cool-down time,
apparently
I had bought the clutch
from, and had it installed by Extreme Motorsports
the previous August. And
get this: they and ClutchMasters were nice enough
to upgrade me to the Stage
III Kevlar TZ clutch for FREE!
So if you go ClutchMasters, go with the
Stage III Kevlar TZ at a minimum,
and I strongly reccomend Extreme
Motorsports as a source...
-Ed
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Oct 23 17:07:50 1998
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From:
"Fein, Edward" <fein@strategy.com>
To:
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Under-Hood Temps
(Was: Engine rebuild update)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 20:07:36
-0400
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>I haven't solved the problem, but have found a
(minor) help re:
>under-hood temps. Remove the rubber weatherstrip
that runs along the
>top of the firewall, mating with the back of the
hood. This allows air
>that enters from under the engine to pass by
the engine and exit over
>the windshield.
On my '94, the rubber
strip is in three sections. I removed the two end
sections, and left the
middle to keep the hot air from getting into the air
intake for the passenger
compartment. Combined with gutting my pre-cats, I
noticed a considerable drop
in underhood temps. Of the two mods, though, I
think gutting the precats had
more to do with it, though.
-Ed
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Oct 23 19:32:52 1998
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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 19:29:19
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: VR4 check
list
References: <01bdfbe9$02287700$ba89fed0@default>
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Ron-a-roid
wrote:
>
>
> OK guys, I'm
making the plunge and need the fine points
to
> look for. Found a 95 VR4 and I'm going
to look at Thursday
> or so to... most
likely buy it. The 93SL I have is great
but
> I guess I want _REALLY_ great. I also
have never cared for
> FWD. Besides
crunches, bends, shock leaks, tire wear,
etc,
> where are the red flag zones on a
VR4? Anxious and
>
excited,Ron-a-roid
>
> Ron...did you
or didn't you...let us know for crying out
>
loud!
>
>
Darc
>
--------------3816ECFDD1459E2454516334
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<P>Ron-a-roid
wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT:
5px"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT
SIZE=-1>OK
guys, I'm making the plunge and need the fine points to look
for. Found
a 95 VR4 and I'm going to look at Thursday or so to... most likely
buy
it. The 93SL I have is great but I guess I want _REALLY_ great. I
also
have never cared for FWD. Besides crunches, bends, shock leaks, tire
wear,
etc, where are the red flag zones on a
VR4?</FONT></FONT> <FONT
COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>Anxious
and
excited,</FONT></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT
SIZE=-1>Ron-a-roid</FONT></FONT><FONT
COLOR="#000000"><FONT
SIZE=-1></FONT></FONT>
<P><FONT
COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>Ron...did you or didn't
you...let
us know for crying out loud!</FONT></FONT><FONT
COLOR="#000000"><FONT
SIZE=-1></FONT></FONT>
<P><FONT
COLOR="#000000"><FONT
SIZE=-1>Darc</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BODY>
</HTML>
--------------3816ECFDD1459E2454516334--
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri
Oct 23 19:36:48 1998
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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 19:34:57
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Subject: Team3S:
rebuilds
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Roger and thread followers
What gives with all the
broken rings?? Is this the result of detonation
literally blowing them
apart/splitting them? Maybe all owner's of TT's
with after market BC's
should consider a water/alchol injection system
until we can solve thi?. Does
the TRE MASC improve/solve this problem in
any way Barry?? How about the
Venom after market computer upgrade,
anyone?? It seems, as one posting noted,
that this is the year of
rebuilds...which is for certain, one way of
explaining it, but not
actually coming up with the real solution to the
problem. I for one,
don't have the cash in hand for such
undertakings....a BC is a major
event for me at the moment, not a rebuild. A
rebuild for me, will be
like Bob's.. sitting in the garage for some time
while "I" work on it.
Now that's not entirely a bad idea,
particularly with the help line I
have here...in fact, it actually sounds
enjoyable were there some more
change in my jeans. But, I'd just like
to have a little longer to enjoy
driving it.
Darc
92 Stealth
TT
Ideas???
The best available water injection
unit??
Darc
92 Stealth TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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From: Brad Bedell
<bbedell@texas.net>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: boost lag,
engine rebuild update
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 21:49:38 -0500
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I have
head knock. When the AFC fuse quit I heard nothing but detonation.
Looking back on it, I am happy I chose the JE pistons. With the
helmet on, my hearing is limited. (for hearing knock)
With stock pistons,
I figure I would have been back into the engine.
> Brad
>
> Check out my home page:
http://lonestar.texas.net/~bbedell
> E-Mail: bbedell@texas.net ICQ#
3612682
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From
owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Oct 23 20:23:57 1998
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: rebuilds
Date:
Fri, 23 Oct 1998 20:24:45 -0700
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stealth-3000gt
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of
>
wce@bc.sympatico.ca
> Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 7:35 PM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Team3S:
rebuilds
>
>
> Roger and thread
followers
>
> What gives with all the broken rings?? Is this the
result of detonation
> literally blowing them apart/splitting
them?
That is my contention.
> Maybe all owner's of TT's
with after market BC's should consider a
> water/alchol injection system
until we can solve thi?.
That would likely help. Either that or
using proper fuel.
> Does the TRE MASC improve/solve this problem in
any way Barry??
The MASC is a fuel computer and actually would exacerbate
the issue since by
leaning out the mixture and making more horsepower you may
promote
detonation.
> How about the Venom after market computer
upgrade,
> anyone?? It seems, as one posting noted, that this is the year
of
> rebuilds...which is for certain, one way of explaining it, but
not
> actually coming up with the real solution to the problem. I
for one,
> don't have the cash in hand for such undertakings....a BC is a
major
> event for me at the moment, not a rebuild. A rebuild for me, will
be
> like Bob's.. sitting in the garage for some time while
"I" work on it.
> Now that's not entirely a bad idea,
particularly with the help line I
> have here...in fact, it actually
sounds enjoyable were there some more
> change in my jeans. But, I'd
just like to have a little longer to enjoy
> driving it.
Detonation
is minimized to a point by retarding timing at the expense
of
horsepower. Ideally you want to put timing back in at higher
RPMs. In
order to do so you have to ensure that detonation will not be
taking place.
You either turn down the boost or use better fuel.
Water/alcohol injection
will also help to a point.
I don't see how an
aftermakret computer is going to eliminate detonation
except by allowing you
to tune around it. Tuning around detonation involves
detuning though,
counter to making more horsepower in the first place.
Bottom line, use
fuel (which may include injecting water and/or alcohol) to
match cylinder
pressures. That being the case the ECU will leave timing in
thus
allowing you to use the additional power.
> Ideas???
> The best
available water injection unit??
I know of at least three. One is
manufactured by Spearco. It is roughly
$155 complete. The
components are not the highest quality and it comes with
only 3 jets.
Bowling Green Customs (thanks to Bob F. for this lead) is
primarily a GN
shop. They make a very nice kit for around $265. It has a
boost
referenced switch for the pump, 5 nozzles, aluminium can with site
handle and
all plumbing.
The third company, British-based ERL, makes a few systems
ranging in price
from $470 to $930. Their best uses an actual 3D FI
computer to control
injection. Very cool. Makes total sense,
gives the tuner complete control,
costs you about $1000 for the kit.
The kits are available in the US around
the prices
listed.
Regards,
Barry
> Darc
>
> 92
Stealth TT
>
> Darc
>
> 92 Stealth
TT
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Oct 23 22:02:55 1998
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Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 21:59:46
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Barry;
The quality and advice within your
posts, is impeccable. That's not to take anything
away from the absolute
first class posts I am continually overwhelmed with here. Thanks
all of you,
but Barry of late, for sharing those who shared with you. As an old
book
"The Education of Little Tree" indicated...when you find
something good, share it ,
'cause there ain't no way o' telling where it's
ultimate good will go...but it'll run to
good, that's fer sure.
I
still can't get over the first rate bunch of guys here...and if anyone accuses
me of
patronizing, I may piss on yer leg and tell ya it's
raining.
Darc
You all know what I drive.
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri
Oct 23 22:15:13 1998
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Abbreviations
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Can someone take a minute and run by the abbreviations we
are using for
standard fare here? Or maybe we can start a group contribution
list!! I
am starting to think my brains have fallen out on the
floor, and I have
commenced a sweep and search operation for them.
Seriously, a posting on
pertinent abbreviations for 3S topics would likely be
appreciated by
more than myself I am sure.....The ole "what
the
hell....uhhh...mmm...oh yeah I get it now" (sometimes),
just uses up
too much of my bio-hard-drive. ....and then there's all that Net
'brev
talk that makes you wonder if you were born
yesterday!
Darc
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri
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From: "Ron-a-roid"
<rtetetet@email.msn.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: VR4 check
list
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 01:42:04 -0400
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Been out of town ... going to see it Saturday morning
... yeah, I think =
so ...
-----Original
Message-----
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
<wce@bc.sympatico.ca>
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Friday,
October 23, 1998 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: VR4
check list
=20
=20
=20
Ron-a-roid
wrote:=20
=20
OK
guys, I'm making the plunge and need the fine points to =
look for. Found a
95 VR4 and I'm going to look at Thursday or so to... =
most likely buy it.
The 93SL I have is great but I guess I want _REALLY_ =
great. I also have
never cared for FWD. Besides crunches, bends, shock =
leaks, tire wear, etc,
where are the red flag zones on a VR4? Anxious =
and
excited,Ron-a-roid=20
Ron...did you or didn't you...let us know for crying out
=
loud!=20
Darc
=20
------=_NextPart_000_0425_01BDFEEF.80ACF7A0
Content-Type:
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding:
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3
HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META
content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1
=
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML
4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY
bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D""
size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>Been =
out of town ...=20
going to
see it Saturday morning ... yeah, I think so
=
...</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT:
=
5px">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial
size=3D2><B>-----Original
=
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
</B><A
href=3D"mailto:wce@bc.sympatico.ca">wce@bc.sympatico.ca</A>
=
<<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:wce@bc.sympatico.ca">wce@bc.sympatico.ca</A>><BR><B>To:=
=20
</B><A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com">stealth-3000gt@list.sirius=
.com</A>=20
<<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com">stealth-3000gt@list.sirius=
.com</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
</B>Friday, October 23, 1998 10:34 PM<BR><B>Subject:
</B>Re: Team3S: =
Re: VR4=20
check
list<BR><BR></DIV></FONT> =20
<P>Ron-a-roid wrote:=20
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE =3D
CITE> =20
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
=
PADDING-LEFT:
5px"><FONT=20
color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D-1>OK guys, I'm making the =
plunge and
need=20
the fine points to look for. Found a 95 VR4 and I'm going to =
look
at=20
Thursday or so to... most likely buy it. The 93SL I have is
=
great=20
but I guess I want _REALLY_ great. I also have never cared =
for
FWD.=20
Besides crunches, bends, shock leaks, tire wear, etc, where =
are
the=20
red
flag zones on a
VR4?</FONT></FONT> <FONT=20
color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D-1>Anxious and
=
excited,</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000000><FONT
=
size=3D-1>Ron-a-roid</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000000><FONT
size=3D-1></FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT size=3D-1>Ron...did you or
=
didn't=20
you...let us know for crying out
loud!</FONT></FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000000><FONT
size=3D-1></FONT></FONT>=20
<P><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT=20
size=3D-1>Darc</FONT></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> =20
</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0425_01BDFEEF.80ACF7A0--
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat
Oct 24 01:07:54 1998
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Date:
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From: Jim Matthews
<matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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Subject: Re:
Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine rebuild update
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Roger Gerl wrote:
>
> The Mitsu experts say
that the car must have had very heavy bad knock. IMHO, due
> to the
leaking sunroof on high speeds I never heard anything as I drove around
>
290km/h on the German Autobahns. But I'm sure I killed it on such high
power,
> long run, high temp circumstances :(
Barry E. King
wrote:
>
> The stock ECU combats knock in two ways When knock
is first detected the
> ECU retards timing. Usually this is
enough. When retarding the timing
> doesn't cut it the next step is
to signal the stock boost solenoid to open
> the wastegates. On a
car equipped with an aftermarket electronic boost
> controller this
feature of course has no effect.
As we all know, those with the Blitz
controller are able to
sustain higher boost at the upper RPMs than those of
us with
other controllers, such as my AVC-R, which falls to about
.9 bar
at 6500 RPM). Is it possible that the Blitz controller
is actually
overdriving the stock injectors to maintain such
boost levels, resulting in a
lean condition and leading to
some of the problems Roger is seeing on his
engine? Or is
it more likely that what he is seeing is from his
pre-Blitz
over-boosting?
The bottom line: can the stock injectors flow
enough fuel for
extended durations at 1.0 bar at near redline?
The
other question: if this is the case, how is the AVC-R
able to prevent this
and keep boost lower at these RPMs?
-Jim
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden,
Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps
ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
*** 3000GT-Stealth
International (3Si) Member #0030
***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94
Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension,
Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84%
BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark
plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided
brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph <-
KNOCKING?!
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat
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Subject: Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine rebuild
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> Is it possible that the Blitz controller
> is
actually overdriving the stock injectors to maintain such
> boost levels,
resulting in a lean condition and leading to
> some of the problems Roger
is seeing on his engine?
The BC can only control the boost via the
wastegates and nothing else.
With the max sustained boost set to 1.05bars
I had no problem to keep the EGTs
on a normal level during the dyno sessions.
But during the runs it was the first
time I saw this white oil-steam comming
out the BOV ! This tells me that the car
was weak before the BC and got even
weaker as I overboosted easily to 1.34 bars
with running into fuel cut then.
I had no fuel cut up to 1.26bars but I felt
some hesitation (timing
retarded). Interestingly, we leaned it out a little with
the help of the AFC
and the hesitation went away. The car runned like hell. But
the dyno session
then told me the truth and limiting to 1.05bars helped. But the
car got
weaker and weaker !
> Or is it more likely that what he is seeing is
from his pre-Blitz
> over-boosting?
I tell this "early Blitz
overboosting".... I just didn't use the limiter. Call
this ignorance and
power-adrenaline-kick. This was before the AFC as I installed
it because I
wanted to get rid of the problems at high boost. Well, I think it
was too
late as the oil spray was already there. Also I would not be able to
increase
fuel because fuel cut kicked in with only +5% more fuel. This would
only make
sense with using bigger injectors.
> The bottom line: can the stock
injectors flow enough fuel for
> extended durations at 1.0 bar at near
redline?
Yes, they can. If fuel is not miss-used to cool the chambers
then they provide
enough on their spray.
> The other question: if
this is the case, how is the AVC-R
> able to prevent this and keep boost
lower at these RPMs?
Well, just a theory :
The AVC-R reads the
injectors duty cycle as well as boost (also rpms ??). This
with its learning
feature are the advantages of it. Maybe it "sees" that on
high
boost the injectors start to go close to the 100% and therefore reduces
boost
(and adjusts the internal stored curve). This could explain the
behaivour. Other
ideas ??
-----------------------
Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat
Oct 24 09:43:00 1998
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In a message dated 98-10-24 04:11:06 EDT, you
write:
<< As we all know, those with the Blitz controller are able
to
sustain higher boost at the upper RPMs than those of us with
other
controllers, such as my AVC-R, which falls to about
.9 bar at 6500
RPM). Is it possible that the Blitz controller
is actually overdriving
the stock injectors to maintain such
boost levels, resulting in a lean
condition and leading to
some of the problems Roger is seeing on his
engine? Or is
it more likely that what he is seeing is from his
pre-Blitz
over-boosting?>>
In theory, the Blitz boost controller
shouldn't hold any more boost through
redline than any other controller
because they all do the same thing.. control
the wastegate. I haven't
heard the story's from people who own Blitz
controllers running more boost,
but if they are holding more boost through
redline vs. other controllers than
maybe it has more to do with that persons
exhuast set-up. With full
cats and stock downpipe my car held more boost
through redline than it did
with the main cat gutted and downpipe.
<<The bottom line: can the
stock injectors flow enough fuel for
extended durations at 1.0 bar at near
redline??>>
With 15G's, I've run 1.0bar during extended HW runs
(70mph to 150mph). It
gets things on the lean side, but shouldn't hurt
anything. Stock turbos at
1.0bar should be a little easier on the fuel
I'd think. If you shift to 5th
gear, however, I'd keep a close eye on
the EGT's.
Mike Mahaffey - '94 Stealth tt Best et: 11.6 Best mph:
120.7
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat
Oct 24 09:54:31 1998
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From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
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Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 09:51:28
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To:
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Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine
rebuild update
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R.G. wrote:
> > Is it possible that
the Blitz controller
> > is actually overdriving the stock injectors to
maintain such
> > boost levels, resulting in a lean condition and
leading to
> > some of the problems Roger is seeing on his
engine?
>
> The BC can only control the boost via the wastegates and
nothing else.
Agreed. But by doing this, (controlling from the bottom
end) is it not inadventantly
controlling the injector duty as well, and hence
overdriving them as Jim suggests? Open
the flood gates, and the stream is
hard pressed to fill the exiting
resevoir.
<snip>
> > The bottom line: can the stock injectors flow
enough fuel for
> > extended durations at 1.0 bar at near
redline?
>
> Yes, they can. If fuel is not miss-used to cool the
chambers then they provide
> enough on their spray.
So wouldn't the
old solution, recently revived here, be of an advantage...ie:
water
injection?? Has anyone heard if this application has long term side
effects with use??
>
>
> > The other question: if this
is the case, how is the AVC-R
> > able to prevent this and keep boost
lower at these RPMs?
>
> Well, just a theory : (Yep, so is
relativity)
>
> The AVC-R reads the injectors duty cycle as well as
boost (also rpms ??). This
> with its learning feature are the advantages
of it. Maybe it "sees" that on high
> boost the injectors start
to go close to the 100% and therefore reduces boost
> (and adjusts the
internal stored curve). This could explain the behaivour. Other
> ideas
??
This sounds like the most plausible explanation Roger...but as you
know, I haven't even
put my BC in the car yet...it is somewhere in transit to
here. But, I hope to be able to
advise a bit on Apexi as time goes on, so
that along with Jim and Errin we will have an
Apexi forum for comparison with
all you Blitz guys. Given your advice and Chens' (along
with others who own
it) I thought Blitz was more of a race application BC with all of
it's
features when I was comparitive shopping, and Apexi was an install and
drive
(street) application. It probably wouldn't hurt to install a
water/alcohal injection
system with either given the recent thread. My
opinion only.
Darc (Darcy Gunnlaugson)
Victoria,
B.C. 92 Stealth TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
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Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: boost lag,
engine rebuild update
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 10:14:57 -0700
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> -----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Jim Matthews
>
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 1998 1:13 AM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: boost lag,
engine rebuild update
<snip>
> As we all know, those
with the Blitz controller are able to
> sustain higher boost at the upper
RPMs than those of us with
> other controllers, such as my AVC-R, which
falls to about
> .9 bar at 6500 RPM).
Almost everyone. I
spoke with one person that observed the same behavior
that anyone else with
9Bs experiences -- boost drop-off approaching redline.
I should have asked
for their settings so that they could be compared with
those which allow this
higher RPM boost that noone else seems to enjoy ;)
> Is it
possible that the Blitz controller is actually overdriving
> the stock
injectors to maintain such boost levels, resulting in a
> lean condition
and leading to some of the problems Roger is seeing
> on his engine?
Or is it more likely that what he is seeing is from
> his pre-Blitz
over-boosting?
The injector behavior is comlpetely determined by the ECU
which does not
read boost. Factors that determine fuel flow (and
therefore IDC) are intake
air temperature, water temperature, airflow,
barometric pressure, timing,
RPM and entropy introduced by Mitsu engineers
(that last one is supposed to
be a joke btw).
I would not place fault
with the DSBC itself -- I believe it to be a fine
boost
controller.
> The bottom line: can the stock injectors flow enough
fuel for
> extended durations at 1.0 bar at near redline?
All other
factors being equal, yes. Some experts suggest not running pintel
style
injectors beyond 80% IDC. This is due to the stress placed on
the
electromagnetic valve. Maybe it gets too hot. In any case it
is claimed
that an injector operating beyond 80% is prone to becoming stuck
open. I
suspect that they mean "80% for extended periods of
time". I personally
don't get concerned until I see a number well
above 90%. Anyone seeing much
above that should be
concerned.
This is the beginning of yet another thread ;)
IDC is
only one indicator of fuel delivery. One thing that isn't
discussed
much is fuel pressure. Injectors require around 35-40 PSI to
operate. When
pulling vaccuum at idle or during light right-footed
cruising, fuel pressure
can be a little lower than what the injectors require
since the pressure
differential is actually pulling fuel through.
Positive manifold pressure
(when under boost) pushes against the fuel being
delivered by the injectors.
The net effect is reduced fuel pressure at the
injector. So, to maintain the
35-40 PSI fuel pressure at the injector you
require 1 PSI additional fuel
pressure to compensate for each additional PSI
in boost.
At 15 PSI you need up to 55 PSI at the injectors. Here's
where it starts to
get interesting. The stock fuel pump is rated at 180
lph @ 43 PSI assuming
stock wiring (ie roughly 12v to the pump). At 55
PSI the pump can deliver
only 140 lph.
So, assuming 15 PSI and a
relatively stock VR4 making roughly 340 HP, you
need 128 lph from the
pump. The stock pump should be up to the task but
just barely.
A
few other factors come into play. If you measure the voltage available
at
the fuel pump it won't be 12v. It will likely be between 10v and
12v.
Below 12v means a less efficient pump. This is why some people
wire battery
power directly to the fuel pump through a relay operated by the
FPR. Doing
so you'll get very close to 14v at the pump and increased
fuel delivery
capacity.
15Gs and larger injectors introduce more
complications. I suppose fuel
delivery is really another thread.
If anyone is interested just post and we
can get it going.
>
The other question: if this is the case, how is the AVC-R
> able to
prevent this and keep boost lower at these RPMs?
The AVC-R does not
control the injectors. It merely displays the IDC as
indicated by the
ECU output. The duty cycle setting on the AVC-R is the
wastegate
actuator duty cycle.
>
-Jim
<snip>
Regards,
Barry
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
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Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: boost lag,
engine rebuild update
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 10:24:10 -0700
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> -----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of R.G.
> Sent:
Saturday, October 24, 1998 6:19 AM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine
rebuild update
<snipped>
> Well, just a theory
:
>
> The AVC-R reads the injectors duty cycle as well as boost
(also
> rpms ??). This with its learning feature are the advantages of
it.
> Maybe it "sees" that on high boost the injectors
start to go close
> to the 100% and therefore reduces boost (and
adjusts the internal
> stored curve). This could explain the
behaivour. Other ideas ??
I do not believe this to be the case. I
recently installed the TRE MASC and
spent about a week intimately tuning the
car. During the latter stages of
tuning I used good fuel and was
limiting boost with the AVC-R at 20 PSI. I
was able to achieve 20 PSI
regardless of IDC. At some points I hit 94% IDC
and still reached 20
PSI. When the engine is really rich higher boost
levels may not be
achieved but that has more to do with inefficient
combustion than anything
else. Based on my observations, I do not believe
the AVC-R reduces
boost based on IDC.
If it does I'd certainly like to know when it decides
to knock back boost.
That would be a factor in choosing injector
size.
BTW, now that I have the MASC I have the ability to set EGT and
boost
alarms. The AVC-R was set to 1.35 BAR (19.6 PSI). The
overboost alarm was
typically set to 20 PSI. It did not go off even
once at that setting.
Setting it to 19 PSI made tripped it every time.
In other words, the AVC-R
was always able to achieve desired boost without
overboosting by even 0.4
PSI. Not bad. I wouldn't expect any
controller to be quite that
accurate.
Regards,
Barry
>
-----------------------
> Roger Gerl, Switzerland
> 93'3000GT
TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
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To:
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Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: boost lag,
engine rebuild update
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 10:36:52 -0700
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> -----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of
>
wce@bc.sympatico.ca
> Sent: Saturday, October 24, 1998 9:51 AM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: boost lag,
engine rebuild update
<snipped>
> So wouldn't the old
solution, recently revived here, be of an
> advantage...ie: water
injection?? Has anyone heard if this
> application has long term side
effects with use??
Alcohol is a rather corrosive substance as is
water. The potential exists
for oxidation of metal parts, especially
aluminium. However, if you keep
the amount of water/alcohol injected
within reasonable limits you should not
experience any long term side-effects
since the alcohol will be burned and
the water will be spewed out as
vapor. A properly designed exhaust system
will keep exhaust
temperatures high enough throughout the entire system to
keep condensation of
vapors (present anyway as a byproduct of combustion) to
a
minimum.
This is actually fuel against the "bigger is better"
myth when it comes to
fiorced induction exhaust systems which some people
pursue with religous
zealousy. You can't consider solely the diameter
of tubing of an exhaust
system. The length gases must travel msut also
be considered. Hehe. Here
we go on another
thread...
<snipped>
> Given your advice and Chens' (along
with others who own it) I thought
> Blitz was more of a race application
BC with all of it's features when
> I was comparitive shopping, and Apexi
was an install and drive
> (street) application.
I don't know that
the AVC-R is any more or less of a race application than
any other
controller. The AVC-R lacks a scramble setting, but realisticaly
that
is more of a street feature than a race feature. It has two
boost
settings which is more or less standard fair. One for
"normal" putting
around and one for hauling. Personally I
find myself leaving it at the
highest setting all the time since you really
control the amount of boost
with your right foot anyway. If your foot
is pressing the accelerator
against the floorboard, why not have full boost
available? ;)
For pure racing applications the Apex'i AVC-D is
probably the right choice.
I doubt it would make a practical street boost
controller.
<snipped>
> Darc (Darcy
Gunnlaugson)
Regards,
Barry
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFrom
owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Oct 24 11:18:48 1998
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Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998
19:09:21 +0100
From: Jim Matthews
<matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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Today Mike and I had a little European micro-gathering
(only
two cars!). On the way home, he noticed a puff of black
smoke
from both of my stock exhaust pipes when I downshifted and
stomped
on the gas. His note and my reply are below. I'd
appreciate any
insight any of you might have. Thanx!
-Jim
Jim Matthews
wrote:
>
> Mike Chapleski wrote:
> >
>
> Just wanted to let you know I saw some smoke coming
out of your
> > exhaust. When we were on 455 coming up the hill
before getting on 66 I
> > think you stomped on it. I say this
because there was puff of smoke
> > that came out of both sides of the
exhaust, then you were off. I
> > thought uh oh, oil, but when I
drove through it, it smelled like gas.
> > Sort of like you were
running real rich. I could smell it for a while,
> > till we got
on 66 then it went away. I guess all that traffic driving
> >
allowed some gas to build up in the system and punching it blew it out.
>
> I was thinking about it and I am not sure why this would
happen. I am
> > thinking the smaller spark plug gap might
have something to do with it.
> > (what did you say they were gapped
at? .032?). Don't think it is a
> > problem, just wanted to let
you know.
>
> You THINK I stomped on it?! Now THAT's
humbling! :-)
>
> Interesting. Thanx for pointing it
out, as this is exactly the
> sort of thing I'd never be able to see and
that other friends
> wouldn't think to bring up if they saw it.
Actually, I think
> this may be normal. On my way down to
Switzerland to see
> Roger, I came up behind a Porche 911 Turbo.
When the traffic
> in front cleared, the guy hammered the throttle and
puffs of
> black smoke came out of each pipe (no more than a puff).
Is
> this what you saw, or was there more? I asked Roger about
it
> when I got there and he said that this is normal with turbo
>
cars. Maybe Maximum Boost will have something to say about
>
this. All I can imagine is that the fuel being injected is
> too
much before the turbos spool up and provide enough air,
> especially when
at wide open throttle (see below). I think
> my gap is around .035,
at least when the tuneup was done
> 20k miles ago.
>
> One
thing I have noticed lately though is that the car seems
> to have
stronger acceleration when I'm just under wide open
> throttle vs. the
pedal all the way to the floor. My theory
> is that WOT causes the
car to dump fuel in as fast as possible,
> causing an over-rich condition,
whereas just inder WOT leans
> the mixture out properly. The fact
that you smelled gas until
> we hit 66 would seem to support this theory,
as I do remember
> flooring it. Again, more gauges and a dyno are in
order here!!
>
> It's also interesting that you saw the smoke out
of BOTH tail
> pipes, as I didn't think that passenger-side pipe
actually
> flowed much exhaust. Was it noticably more from the
driver-
> side pipe?
>
> At any rate, I'm relieved that you
didn't smell oil, as that's
> the last thing I need to worry about right
now! BTW, it was
> a lot of fun driving along with two nearly
identical cars of
> such rarity in this area! Just imagine 50+ on
the way to the
> Mitsubishi factory! Maybe I'll give that guy from
the German
> GTO club a call in case he lost my number...
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps
ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
*** 3000GT-Stealth
International (3Si) Member #0030
***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94
Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension,
Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84%
BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark
plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided
brake lines
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G-Tech
Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
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Barry E. King wrote:
>
> Roger Gerl
wrote:
> >
> > > Jim Matthews wrote:
> >
>
> > > The other question: if this is the case, how is the
AVC-R
> > > able to prevent this and keep boost lower at these
RPMs?
> >
> > Well, just a theory :
> >
> >
The AVC-R reads the injectors duty cycle as well as boost (also
> >
rpms ??). This with its learning feature are the advantages of it.
> >
Maybe it "sees" that on high boost the injectors start to go
close
> > to the 100% and therefore reduces boost (and adjusts
the internal
> > stored curve). This could explain the behaivour.
Other ideas ??
>
> I do not believe this to be the case. I
recently installed the TRE MASC and
> spent about a week intimately tuning
the car. During the latter stages of
> tuning I used good fuel and
was limiting boost with the AVC-R at 20 PSI. I
> was able to achieve
20 PSI regardless of IDC. At some points I hit 94% IDC
> and still
reached 20 PSI. When the engine is really rich higher boost
> levels
may not be achieved but that has more to do with inefficient
> combustion
than anything else. Based on my observations, I do not believe
> the
AVC-R reduces boost based on IDC.
>
> If it does I'd certainly like
to know when it decides to knock back boost.
> That would be a factor in
choosing injector size.
Well, you guys have a lot more experience with
this than I,
but my observations support Roger's theory. When my
AVC-R
sees the IDC get above 90%, it starts blinking, and this
is when the
boost level starts decreasing. It appears as
if the AVC-R sees that the
injectors are close to maxing out
and starts bleeding off some of the
pressure to keep things
in check.
If this is the case, then is the
Blitz failing to prevent
a dangerous situation?
BTW, Barry, it sounds
like you're doing some impressive
testing!! Remember, the AVC-R only
goes up to 2.0 bar! :-)
-Jim
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden,
Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps
ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
*** 3000GT-Stealth
International (3Si) Member #0030
***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94
Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension,
Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84%
BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark
plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided
brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph
G-Tech
Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
For subscribe/unsubscribe
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From
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Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998
19:28:07 +0100
From: Jim Matthews
<matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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Subject: Re:
Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine rebuild update
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LotoBoost@aol.com wrote:
>
> Jim Matthews
wrote:
> >
> > The bottom line: can the stock injectors flow
enough fuel for
> > extended durations at 1.0 bar at near
redline??
>
> With 15G's, I've run 1.0bar during extended HW runs
(70mph to 150mph). It
> gets things on the lean side, but shouldn't
hurt anything. Stock turbos at
> 1.0bar should be a little easier on
the fuel I'd think. If you shift to 5th
> gear, however, I'd keep a
close eye on the EGT's.
Why would bigger turbos change the mixture at the
same boost
pressure? 1.0 bar is 1.0 bar, right? I would think the
15Gs
would simply spool up a bit slower and hold EGTs down at the
same
boost and mixture...
-Jim
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden,
Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps
ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
*** 3000GT-Stealth
International (3Si) Member #0030
***
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Jet Black '94
Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension,
Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84%
BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark
plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided
brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph
G-Tech
Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
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From
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: boost lag,
engine rebuild update
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:30:11 -0700
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> -----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Jim Matthews
>
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 1998 11:24 AM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: boost lag,
engine rebuild update
> Well, you guys have a lot more experience
with this than I,
> but my observations support Roger's theory. When
my AVC-R
> sees the IDC get above 90%, it starts blinking, and
this
> is when the boost level starts decreasing. It appears
as
> if the AVC-R sees that the injectors are close to maxing out
>
and starts bleeding off some of the pressure to keep things
> in
check.
While it is possible the SAVC-R has this feature I have not seen
reference
to it in any literature. You'd think a feature like this
would be bragged
about. In any case, I would think that with stock
blowers and high RPMs
where you are no doubt seeing these high IDCs you'll be
seeing boost drop
off anyway.
I have 15Gs and 550cc injectors.
However I still hit 92% IDC (and sometimes
higher). I have never
observed the boost dropping off. Once the boost hits
20 PSI on my car
it stays there until I lift regardless of RPM or IDC
achieved.
> If
this is the case, then is the Blitz failing to prevent
> a dangerous
situation?
I wouldn't knock the Blitz too much. Although a nice
safety feature
(presuming it does indeed exists) the boost controller
shouldn't really be
responsible for controlling fuel. If there is a
fuel delivery issue that
should be addressed separately.
> BTW,
Barry, it sounds like you're doing some impressive
> testing!!
Remember, the AVC-R only goes up to 2.0 bar! :-)
Haha. I
doubt I'll ever be running THAT much ;)
>
-Jim
Regards,
Barry
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFrom
owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Oct 24 11:56:00 1998
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: boost lag,
engine rebuild update
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 11:56:44 -0700
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Bigger turbos increase air flow. More air means more
fuel required. If you
don't change the fuel you'll have a leaner
mixture, even at the same boost
as a smaller turbo. Boost by itself
does not determine mixture.
The point of larger turbos is not to raise
boost but to increase the amount
of air flowed at a given boost. The
side benefit is that larger turbos also
can achieve higher boost levels and
hold it lopnger throughout the RPM
range.
A stock 9B flows roughly 265
CFM @ 15 PSI. An unported 15G will flow
roughly 404 CFM @ 15 PSI.
The stock turbo is capable of delivering 530 CFM
versus the 808 CFM of the
15G at the same boost of 15 PSI. Big difference.
Actual airflow through
the combustion chamber will vary on other factors,
but I'm sure you get the
point.
Combustion temperatures (and therefore EGT) is dependant solely on
mixture
and the efficiency of the combustion. Exactly where EGT is
measured can
also make a significant difference. Ideally you want the
pyrometer 10" from
the flame front. This isn't always
possible. Consider also the distance
from each exhaust port in a
mutli-cyclinder application to a single
pyrometer. Heat is some
aggregate of each hole with furthest cylinders
contributing less than the
closest ones. We're starting to split hairs here
but the point is when
comparing numbers all this needs to be at least
considered.
On my
roadrace bikes each cylinder had a separate pyrometer. Ideally
they'd
run at the same temperatures but the reality is they do not.
This is a good
reason for balancing injectors to individual cylinders and
also having the
ability to tune fuel delivery to an individual
cylinder.
It is a myth that a turbocharged engine "runs hotter"
than an NA engine. A
t/c engine typically produces higher underhood
temperatures for other
reasons but that is not the same as the temperature of
combustion.
Combustion temperatures at the flame front approach 2000 F for a
well tuned
high performance 4-stroke gasoline engine. Fuel is still
fuel, air is still
air and metal melts at the same temperatures regardless of
the method of
induction.
Regards,
Barry
>
-----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Jim Matthews
>
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 1998 11:28 AM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: boost lag,
engine rebuild update
>
>
> LotoBoost@aol.com wrote:
>
>
> > Jim Matthews wrote:
> > >
> > > The
bottom line: can the stock injectors flow enough fuel for
> > >
extended durations at 1.0 bar at near redline??
> >
> > With
15G's, I've run 1.0bar during extended HW runs (70mph to
> 150mph).
It
> > gets things on the lean side, but shouldn't hurt
anything.
> Stock turbos at
> > 1.0bar should be a little easier
on the fuel I'd think. If you
> shift to 5th
> > gear,
however, I'd keep a close eye on the EGT's.
>
> Why would bigger
turbos change the mixture at the same boost
> pressure? 1.0 bar is
1.0 bar, right? I would think the 15Gs
> would simply spool up a bit
slower and hold EGTs down at the
> same boost and
mixture...
>
> -Jim
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Oct 24 12:18:30 1998
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From: "Ron-a-roid" <rtetetet@email.msn.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: VR4 Advice
please
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 15:22:02 -0400
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>OK guys, I'm making the plunge and need the fine
points to look for. Found
a
>95 VR4 and I'm going to look at Thursday
or so to... most likely buy it.
The
>93SL I have is great but I guess I
want _REALLY_ great. I also have never
>cared for FWD. Besides crunches,
bends, shock leaks, tire wear, etc, where
>are the red flag zones on a
VR4?
I checked the car out and it looks good, a few more dings than I
like and
car wash swirls. (3 rt side door dents, 2 rear 1/4, 1 front:-(
)
NO leaks, no heat marks under hood, all repair records, good rubber,
no
shock leaks, rims in good shape, smooth trany up & down, good
power,
consistent boost, solid no rattles or thumps in drive train or
suspension.
Active aero thumps when it levels out at under 35.
Two
things concern me;
1. The brakes are spongy, I can pin the pedal to the
floor. They stop good
but not as good as my SL as far as raw stopping power.
Probably because the
system is spongy. Has not had brake line recall done.
Anti lock light blinks
3 times at start up, not a solid 4 - 6 second light
like my 93 SL.
2. The car has had Valvoline 10-30w in it all the changes
he had receipts
for from the dealer. I would have preferred to see Mobil1 or
a synthetic and
would want to change to synthetic after purchase. I have read
that changing
from petroleum to synthetic can induce seal shrinkage and
possible leaks
later on. Anybody else heard of this and have knowledge of
it?
The car is a 95 VR4, Danube Blue, 18" chromies, Michelin tires,
Infinity
stereo, BIG sun roof, leather, etc.
34,700 mi's, AWD, AWS, All
the goodies. Asking $26,500.
Ron
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat
Oct 24 13:20:26 1998
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Date:
Sat, 24 Oct 1998 20:43:10 +0100
From: Jim Matthews
<matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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Ron-a-roid wrote:
>
> The car is a 95 VR4,
Danube Blue, 18" chromies, Michelin tires, Infinity
> stereo, BIG sun
roof, leather, etc.
> 34,700 mi's, AWD, AWS, All the goodies. Asking
$26,500.
Sounds a bit steep. The car you are looking at
sounds
very similar to my '94 when I bought it in 96. Same
mileage,
no sunroof or active aero (Stealth), alloy wheels,
black, fewer dings,
$20k. I'd ask them to take care of
the swirls. The brakes may
feel spongier than your SL
due to the additional weight. My pedal goes
to the floor
as well (braided lines). My car also had dino oil
and
switching to synthetics caused no noticable ill effects.
I'd try
for closer to $20. -Jim
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden,
Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps
ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
*** 3000GT-Stealth
International (3Si) Member #0030
***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94
Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension,
Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84%
BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark
plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided
brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph
G-Tech
Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat
Oct 24 13:20:30 1998
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From: Jim Matthews
<matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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Subject: Re:
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Barry E. King wrote:
>
> Jim Matthews
wrote:
> >
> > Well, you guys have a lot more experience with
this than I,
> > but my observations support Roger's theory. When
my AVC-R
> > sees the IDC get above 90%, it starts blinking, and
this
> > is when the boost level starts decreasing. It appears
as
> > if the AVC-R sees that the injectors are close to maxing
out
> > and starts bleeding off some of the pressure to keep
things
> > in check.
>
> While it is possible the SAVC-R
has this feature I have not seen reference
> to it in any
literature. You'd think a feature like this would be bragged
>
about. In any case, I would think that with stock blowers and high
RPMs
> where you are no doubt seeing these high IDCs you'll be seeing
boost drop
> off anyway.
Just took a look at the SAVC-R docs on
A'PEXi's web page.
Unfortunately, they aren't very revealing (or
well-written),
but I did find these
statements:
http://www.apexi-usa.com/docsavcr10.htm
"The
display will begin to flash if the injectors reach
over 98% capacity."
(so
what?)
http://www.apexi-usa.com/docsavcr12.htm
"Although
this unit has a RPM separate self learning function,
vehicles maximizing
their injectors by 6200 RPM will not be able
to use the self learning
function during that period because
the unit uses the injector signal to read
the engine RPM for
the self learning function. In order to have more
precise
boost control, the solution to this problem is to upgrade
to
higher capacity
injectors."
http://www.apexi-usa.com/esavc.htm
The A'pex
Super AVC-R is one of the most technologically
advanced boost controllers on the market yet, it is one of
the
most easiest to use. The Super AVC-R is the only
boost
controller that integrates injector pulse
monitoring and
increases boost response. The unit is
"self learning" (unlike
fuzzy logic with
its dangerous "calibration"). This unit utilizes
a
solenoid actuator valve to control boost, similar
to the ones
used on the turbocharged Honda F-1 race
cars. It is a closed
loop type boost controller that
has its own pressure sensor to
compensate for
atmospheric changes and maintain steady boost levels
at all altitudes. The
Super
AVC-R has a sophisticated appearance that
features two user preset
modes--A & B for on the
fly
adjustments and RPM specific overshoot
protection for boost
stability. The Super AVC-R is
universal
for most boost-dependent applications with
an internal or external
type wastegate.
> > If this is the
case, then is the Blitz failing to prevent
> > a dangerous
situation?
>
> I wouldn't knock the Blitz too much. Although
a nice safety feature
> (presuming it does indeed exists) the boost
controller shouldn't really be
> responsible for controlling fuel.
If there is a fuel delivery issue that
> should be addressed
separately.
Not trying to knock it, just trying to figure out what
is
going on. Would the AVC-R also be able to hold 1.0 bar
at redline
like the Blitz if all of the other mods were the
same? I don't
understand why one controller would be able
to sustain boost better than
another. It must be that my
stock exhaust is simply too
restrictive.
-Jim
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden,
Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps
ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
*** 3000GT-Stealth
International (3Si) Member #0030
***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94
Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension,
Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84%
BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark
plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided
brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph
G-Tech
Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: boost lag,
engine rebuild update
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 14:26:13 -0700
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> -----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Jim Matthews
>
Sent: Saturday, October 24, 1998 1:21 PM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: boost lag,
engine rebuild update
<snip>
> Just took a look at the
SAVC-R docs on A'PEXi's web page.
> Unfortunately, they aren't very
revealing (or well-written),
> but I did find these
statements:
>
>
>
http://www.apexi-usa.com/docsavcr10.htm
>
> "The display will
begin to flash if the injectors reach
> over 98% capacity." (so
what?)
Visual clue that you're heading into the danger zone.
>
http://www.apexi-usa.com/docsavcr12.htm
>
> "Although this unit
has a RPM separate self learning function,
> vehicles maximizing their
injectors by 6200 RPM will not be able
> to use the self learning function
during that period because
> the unit uses the injector signal to read the
engine RPM for
> the self learning function. In order to have more
precise
> boost control, the solution to this problem is to upgrade
to
> higher capacity injectors."
<snip>
> Not
trying to knock it, just trying to figure out what is
> going
on.
Understood. Did not intend to imply otherwise.
>
Would the AVC-R also be able to hold 1.0 bar
> at redline like the Blitz
if all of the other mods were the
> same? I don't understand why one
controller would be able
> to sustain boost better than another. It
must be that my
> stock exhaust is simply too restrictive.
Based on
what you found, it makes sense that the AVC-R would allow bleed
down under
high IDC situations. From that blurb it appears that the AVC-R
simply
doesn't learn the boost curve in those circumstances whereas the DSBC
can
since it is not considering the IDC.
Since tuning in the MASC I haven't
been reaching above 98% (typically hit
92-94% -- still too high IMO) so I
would not have experienced this
situation. Kind of a nice safety
feature actually.
> -Jim
Regards,
Barry
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: AVC-R tuning
(WAS: boost lag, engine rebuild update)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 15:27:57
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It occurred to me that in order to allow the AVC-R to
learn maximum boost
without one would need to get it to learn the maximum
boost at an IDC less
than what it considers dangerous. To do this you'd
have to choose the next
highest gear and with the goal of achieving maximum
desired boost before
running into the RPM and IDC ceilings.
It
wouldn't be practical for me to try this (I'd have to at least
reinstall
stock injectors and probably the stock turbos <grin>) but
perhaps you or
someone else with an AVC-R and a stockish car could could
experiement with
this approach.
Regards,
Barry
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun
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Date:
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From: Jim Matthews
<matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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Subject: Re:
Team3S: AVC-R tuning (WAS: boost lag, engine rebuild update)
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Barry E. King wrote:
>
> It occurred to me
that in order to allow the AVC-R to learn maximum boost
> without one
would need to get it to learn the maximum boost at an IDC less
> than what
it considers dangerous. To do this you'd have to choose the next
>
highest gear and with the goal of achieving maximum desired boost before
>
running into the RPM and IDC ceilings.
Correct. From
http://www.apexi-usa.com/docsavcr11.htm
"Please follow the steps
below to speed up the self learning
function process.
1. Drive the
vehicle in as high of a gear as possible in order to
get the boost pressure
to match the specified boost level at the
lowest possible RPM (the intercept
RPM). Running the vehicle
from the intercept RPM + 1000 RPM is
acceptable.
2. Next, run the vehicle in the mid and high RPM of a
mid-range
gear to match the specified boost level.
3. Repeating steps
1 and 2 will speed up the self learning function."
-Jim
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps
ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
*** 3000GT-Stealth
International (3Si) Member #0030
***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94
Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension,
Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84%
BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark
plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided
brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph
G-Tech
Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun
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Date: Sun,
25 Oct 1998 09:46:28 +0100
From: Jim Matthews
<matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine rebuild update
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Barry E. King wrote:
>
> Jim Matthews
wrote:
> >
> > http://www.apexi-usa.com/docsavcr12.htm
>
>
> > "Although this unit has a RPM separate self learning
function,
> > vehicles maximizing their injectors by 6200 RPM will not
be able
> > to use the self learning function during that period
because
> > the unit uses the injector signal to read the engine RPM
for
> > the self learning function. In order to have more
precise
> > boost control, the solution to this problem is to upgrade
to
> > higher capacity injectors."
> >
> Based on
what you found, it makes sense that the AVC-R would allow bleed
> down
under high IDC situations. From that blurb it appears that the
AVC-R
> simply doesn't learn the boost curve in those circumstances
whereas the DSBC
> can since it is not considering the IDC.
So
again my questions:
1. Is the Blitz failing to prevent a potentially
dangerous
situation?
2. If the injector duty cycle is in the danger
zone in the
upper RPMs, then is it true that the stock injectors
cannot
handle 1.0 bar at redline and would lean out the mixture?
3.
How would a free flowing exhaust affect any of this? Since
your other
message indicates that a bigger turbo increases flow
at the same boost
pressure and RPM (I'm still confused about this),
I would assume that a
better exhaust would also increase flow.
Would this not cause an even leaner
condition?
-Jim
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden,
Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps
ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
*** 3000GT-Stealth
International (3Si) Member #0030
***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94
Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension,
Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84%
BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark
plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided
brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph
G-Tech
Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: boost lag,
engine rebuild update
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 02:36:16 -0700
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> -----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Jim Matthews
>
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 1998 1:46 AM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: boost lag,
engine rebuild update
<snip>
> So again my
questions:
>
> 1. Is the Blitz failing to prevent a potentially
dangerous
> situation?
Sure I suppose. But so is your BOV.
;) The point is that it is not
function of the boost controller to
control fuel delivery. The SAVC-R has
this safety feature as a
bonus. It is possible to create a similar
situation by using an
undersized fuel pump for instance. Clearly this is
not something a
boost controller need be concerned. There are too many
other factors at
play.
I would not consider any boost controller that does not have this
safety
feature flawed. It is up to the operator to ensure that fuel
demands to
support additional boost is met. No different than when you
pull up to the
pump. Should the boost controller react if you put 87
octane into the tank
instead of 92?
> 2. If the injector duty cycle
is in the danger zone in the
> upper RPMs, then is it true that the stock
injectors cannot
> handle 1.0 bar at redline and would lean out the
mixture?
That is the danger, yes. If you hit 99% at 6800 RPM what
does that mean?
Can the injectors supply enough fuel for 7100 RPM or
not? You can't easily
tell for sure so it appears the Apex'i philosophy
is "best to err on the
safe side". Not a bad policy
really.
> 3. How would a free flowing exhaust affect any of
this? Since
> your other message indicates that a bigger turbo
increases flow
> at the same boost pressure and RPM (I'm still confused
about this),
> I would assume that a better exhaust would also increase
flow.
> Would this not cause an even leaner condition?
To help
explain the flow rate versus pressure, perhaps it may be useful to
use
analogous terms in another field. Electrical "pressure" is
expressed as
voltage. However the amount of electricty flowing through
a circuit is
expressed as amperage. 250 V at 0.0001 A is no big
deal. Yet 110 V at 40 A
will deliver a decent kick. CFM is akin
to amperage. PSI is similar to
voltage. The overall effect of
pressure and flow is of course
inter-related. An engine is really
nothing more than an air pump. The more
air you can get flowing through
it, the more horsepower that engine can
produce. High cylinder
pressures are not an absolute requirement to high
flow. Higher boost
pressure does mean more flow to a point, but it is
possible to select a
turbocharger that flows more air at lower boost levels.
This depends totally
upon the characteristics of the specific turbo since
each design has an
optimal range of operation outside of which it becomes
rather
ineffective.
As to the exhaust, all other things being equal, a free
flowing exhaust may
actually reduce boost pressures. This does not mean
flow is decreased, in
fact, if boost pressures drop it most likely means that
flow has increased
since there is less resistance in the system. This
is a good thing.
More flow means more air which would, as you indicated,
create a lean
condition if fuel was not also increased proportionally.
However, the ECU
should be able to compensate for this since it bases fuel
requirements (in
open loop operation) primarily on airflow as measured by the
MAS. Other
sesnors contribute like intake air temp (IAT), coolant
temperature and
barometric pressure, but the MAS is the most relied
upon. That doesn't mean
it isn't possible to get into a situation where
the capabilities of a given
ECU to compensate are not exceeded.
I
beleive in the case of the VR4 this will not be a concern since the ECU
seems
to just dump fuel into the system as quickly as it can beyond certain
RPMs at
WOT. This creates a pretty much constant rich condition.
High
cylinder pressures (too much boost, too much air) and exceeding
capabilities
of the stock fuel system's ability to deliver the required fuel
(injectors
and pump) are more realistic concerns.
Hope that
helps.
An interesting (to me anyway) anecdote from my first day with the
TRE MASC
several weeks ago. I had disconnected the oxygen sensors to
force open loop
operation. This is a normal step when dialing in a fuel
computer as it
greatly eases the tuning process by keeping the ECU from
trying to trim the
fuel delivery. The sensors get reconnected after
base tuning is complete.
Anyway, at one point I was so far out to lunch on
the mixture -- way too
rich (beta unit, noone else had ever tried it on a
3000, including TRE) --
that I had to make dramatic changes to the airflow
with the MASC to
compensate. I guess the ECU must've thought something
was wrong with the
airmeter. The ECU raised a CE light, coughed once or
twice, then magically
started running extremely well. I was confused
for a moment or two as to
what was going on. Here I was with a car that
one moent was so rich it
would barely run, and the next minute I'm crusing
merrily along with no
worries.
The ECU was able to deliver a safe
mixture without oxygen sensors or MAS
readings. I could use WOT, cruise
or whatever. It just wasn't quite as
peppy as it could be.
OPeration above 4000 RPM was not great however, I
suspect due to the
conservatively rich setting introduced by the ECU's
fallback fuel map.
The ECU will throw out sensor inputs if they do not jive
with inputs from
other sensors. This is pretty much standard fair in most
vehicles, but
it was very interesting to me when it actually
occurred.
Regards,
Barry
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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> I asked Roger about it when I got there and he said
that this is normal with
> turbo cars. Maybe Maximum Boost will have
something to say about this.
I just don't know why this is but I learned
that this is with a lot turbo cars
and also the tuning-guy told me that it is
very common. No I haven't found any
theory for this :(
> At any
rate, I'm relieved that you didn't smell oil, as that's
> the last thing I
need to worry about right now!
Well, ya know where to look at. Just pull
the soft IC pipes from the y-pipe and
look if there's some oil deposit. Mine
looked like the small picture I attached
(sorry guys, I don't have it on my
website yet) and this was definitely too
much. Next time you head down or we
will meet somewhere I can bring the
compression tester with me to check the
fronts at least.
> Maybe I'll give that guy from the German GTO club a
call in case he lost my
> number...
YES ! Do so :)
Cheers,
Roger
-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT
TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
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Subject: Re:
Team3S: boost lag
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Jim wrote :
> When my AVC-R sees the IDC get above
90%, it starts blinking, and this
> is when the boost level starts
decreasing.
> "The display will begin to flash if the injectors
reach
> over 98% capacity." (so what?)
So, what does it in
reality ?? Does your display start blinking at 90% or like
Apexi says at 98%
?? IMHO, 98% is way too high for a safety feature ! Maybe it's
programmable
or an "undocumented feature" ;-)
The Supra guys are loving the
AVC-R a lot (they had a GP going on recently for
$430 !) and maybe it's worth
to speak with them on their list to get more
knowledge :)
Cheers,
Roger
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Subject: Re:
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Barry et all,
Great thread !! Thanks Barry for the
superb input :)
> Exactly where EGT is measured can also make a
significant difference. Ideally
> you want the pyrometer 10" from the
flame front. This isn't always possible.
IMHO, the best position to
measure EGT is BEFORE the turbine in the manifold.
But considering your
10" (25.4cm) they should be installed in the precats. When
the new
manifolds are ready I plan to install the probes in there as well as a
tube
comming out to measure the pressure. Barry, where have you installed
the
probes for the TRE
?
Thanks,
Roger
-----------------------
Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
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Subject: Re: Team3S: boost lag, engine rebuild
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> > over 98% capacity." (so what?)
>
Visual clue that you're heading into the danger zone.
I totally agree !
> > Would the AVC-R also be able to hold 1.0 bar
> > at
redline like the Blitz if all of the other mods were the
> >
same? I don't understand why one controller would be able
> > to
sustain boost better than another. It must be that my
> > stock
exhaust is simply too restrictive.
One theory is that the BCs alternates
the wastegates and therefore give a
different top end. Before I installed the
exhaust I got the Blitz and did the
first testings. After installing DP/Cat
and cat-back I haven't discovered a big
difference. But I'm sure the precats
together with the small turbos are
representing a major restrictivement in
the system. The Blitz held boost up to
the redline with the stock exhaust
too. Of course I also had a drop in boost but
only about 0.2bars.
>
Based on what you found, it makes sense that the AVC-R would allow bleed
>
down under high IDC situations. From that blurb it appears that the
AVC-R
> simply doesn't learn the boost curve in those circumstances
whereas the DSBC
> can since it is not considering the IDC.
That
sounds possible to me too.
> Since tuning in the MASC I haven't been
reaching above 98% (typically hit
> 92-94% -- still too high IMO) so I
would not have experienced this
> situation. Kind of a nice safety
feature actually.
Yes, it definitely is ! Unfortunately, I haven't found
out what signal the IDC
carries and how it can be interpreted. But I hope to
be able to set a desired
warning limit too :)
Cheers,
Roger
-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT
TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
From:
Dave Allison <dave@languys.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine
rebuild update
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At 11:56 AM 10/24/98 , you wrote:
>Bigger turbos
increase air flow. More air means more fuel required. If
you
>don't change the fuel you'll have a leaner mixture, even at the same
boost
>as a smaller turbo. Boost by itself does not determine
mixture.
Yes, bigger turbos increase airflow, therefore producing higher
levels of
boost.
>A stock 9B flows roughly 265 CFM @ 15 PSI.
An unported 15G will flow
>roughly 404 CFM @ 15 PSI. The stock turbo
is capable of delivering 530 CFM
>versus the 808 CFM of the 15G at the
same boost of 15 PSI. Big difference.
>Actual airflow through the
combustion chamber will vary on other factors,
>but I'm sure you get the
point.
First of all, let me say that Barry is my hero for all the
pioneering he's
done with the TRE MASC. I'm completely jealous of his status
as "official
beta tester of the 3000GT TRE MASC".
:)
But...
I think you're confusing what these manufacturer specs
are conveying. A 9B
turbo does not 'flow 265cfm', nor does a 15G 'flow
404cfm'.
CFM is simply airflow rate. Airflow rate is closely tied to
engine RPM
(displacement * rpm * 0.5 * volumetric efficiency) / 1728.
What the specs you quoted mean is that a stock 9B can produce 15psi
at
265cfm, a lower engine rpm and quickly attainable number. A 15G
will
require 404cfm from the car to reach 15psi of boost.
This is
what is commonly known as boost lag. A larger turbo will require a
higher
flowrate to achieve an equivalent level of boost. Reaching 265cfm on
stock
turbos will not only happen quicker due to the 9B's characteristic
of
producing higher boost pressure at lower cfm, but also because the
early
boost levels increase the cfm exponentially faster. It will reach
the
required airflow to produce 15psi much quicker than the large turbo.
A
larger turbo will not begin to produce high boost pressures until the
cfm
is much higher, thus boost lag.
I think what you're saying is that
a larger turbo will be producing more
airflow at a specific level of boost.
Turbos are not rated by how much
airflow they produce. They are rated by what
amount of airflow is required
to achieve a particular level of boost.
Generally, the lower the number,
the faster they spool up.
>The
point of larger turbos is not to raise boost but to increase the
amount
>of air flowed at a given boost. The side benefit is that
larger turbos also
>can achieve higher boost levels and hold it lopnger
throughout the RPM
>range.
The ONLY point of larger turbos is to
raise boost. And perhaps to move the
torque curve towards the higher rpm's
for performance during higher speeds.
>Combustion temperatures (and
therefore EGT) is dependant solely on mixture
>and the efficiency of the
combustion. Exactly where EGT is measured can
>also make a
significant difference. Ideally you want the pyrometer 10"
from
>the flame front. This isn't always possible. Consider
also the distance
>from each exhaust port in a mutli-cyclinder application
to a single
>pyrometer. Heat is some aggregate of each hole with
furthest cylinders
>contributing less than the closest ones. We're
starting to split hairs here
>but the point is when comparing numbers all
this needs to be at least
>considered.
For the TRE MASC, were you
able to connect an extra pyrometer? Wasn't it
the MASC that had the
capability of dual EGT gauges? This is too cool!
BTW, I'd love to pick
your brain when it comes time for me to tune the TRE
MASC. Did you have
someone in the cockpit keeping an eye on the readings?
How long did it take
until you were comfortable with the A/F ratios? Tell
us more about your
prototype experiences with this unit! :)
Seeya!
Dave
Allison
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
From:
Dave Allison <dave@languys.com>
Subject: Team3S: Hell no, we won't
flow! ;) (was RE: boost lag, engine rebuild
update)
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Heya guys!
I hope the charter for this moderated
mailing list includes civilized
disagreements, cuz I got one here for ya! :)
I'm not looking for strife,
only trying to kill misinformation before it
finds it's way into an FAQ or
becomes common knowledge.
Please note
that formulas below and in previous posts are taken directly
from several
books regarding turbocharging theory, including, "Maximum
Boost:
Designing, Testing, and Installing Turbocharger Systems", by
Corky
Bell.
At 01:36 AM 10/25/98 , Barry E. King wrote:
>To help
explain the flow rate versus pressure, perhaps it may be useful to
>use
analogous terms in another field. Electrical "pressure" is
expressed as
>voltage. However the amount of electricty flowing
through a circuit is
>expressed as amperage. 250 V at 0.0001 A is no
big deal. Yet 110 V at 40 A
>will deliver a decent kick. CFM
is akin to amperage. PSI is similar to
>voltage.
You
can't say this. increasing PSI increases CFM, increasing voltage does
not
increase amperage. This is why when you calculate the airflow rate of
a
turbocharged engine, you multiply the non-aspirated cfm of the engine
by
the pressure ratio (boost psi) of the turbocharger, in our case 15psi
(or
1.02bar). Higher boost (psi) equals higher pressure ratio
(cfm).
Boost is directly related to airflow. Airflow is a result of
boost
pressure. As you increase boost (pressure ratio) you increase
airflow
rate(cfm). There is no such thing as a turbo having "better
flow" than
another one. That is, unless you are referring to turbo lag.
To put it more
simply:
15psi is 15psi is 15psi. It doesn't matter what
size the turbo that is
producing it. It won't "flow" better if you
have a larger turbo. It WILL
flow better if you increase the boost, but there
is no advantage (other
than "boost threshold") of one turbo vs.
another when they are at the same
boost level. If a stock turbo is keeping
the compressor at a constant 15psi
at all times, how can a larger turbo have
an advantage at 15psi also? The
larger turbo does not increase the density
ratio (# of air molecules packed
into each inch) either.
>The
overall effect of pressure and flow is of course
>inter-related. An
engine is really nothing more than an air pump. The more
>air you
can get flowing through it, the more horsepower that engine
can
>produce. High cylinder pressures are not an absolute
requirement to high
>flow.
Um... yes they are. The only
thing that increases flow (cfm) is pressure
ratio (boost), increase of
displacement, or engine rpm. There simply are no
other
variables.
>Higher boost pressure does mean more flow to a point, but
it is
>possible to select a turbocharger that flows more air at lower
boost levels.
This "flow" quality you refer to makes no sense,
since the absence of air
movement is what creates pressure. You can't flow
more air without
DECREASING boost. There IS no "flow" issue if the
boost PSI being produced
is equivalent on two different sized
turbos.
>This depends totally upon the characteristics of the specific
turbo since
>each design has an optimal range of operation outside of
which it becomes
>rather ineffective.
Each design has an optimal
range of cfm/pressure ratio outside of which it
becomes rather ineffective.
Most properly applied turbos run in the 70-76%
range of efficiency. This is
called compressor efficiency and has to do
with thermodynamic efficiency. It
has nothing to do with what kind of
"flow" a turbo can
produce.
>As to the exhaust, all other things being equal, a free
flowing exhaust may
>actually reduce boost pressures.
A free
flowing exhaust INCREASES boost pressure due to the decrease of
back
pressure. When installing an exhaust and intake to our cars, HKS, and
me,
notes an increase of 1psi due to drop in backpressure.
>This does not
mean flow is decreased, in
>fact, if boost pressures drop it most likely
means that flow has increased
>since there is less resistance in the
system. This is a good thing.
I'm still having a hard time with
this "flow" thing. Maybe I'm
misunderstanding you. Are we only
talking about airflow AFTER the exhaust
manifold? Obviously you don't get the
same psi AFTER the manifold as you do
BEFORE the manifold. Even then I don't
understand how the "flow" will be
affected after the turbine outlet
is done with the exhaust.
Finally, let me say thanks to all the great
informative posts I've had the
privilege to peruse this week. Some quality
info to be gleaned from them.
Those poor souls at starnet will have to be
happy with discussions of wiper
fluids and chromed brake calipers.
:)
Seeya!
Dave Allison
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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Dave Allison wrote:
>
> 15psi is 15psi is
15psi. It doesn't matter what size the turbo that is
> producing it. It
won't "flow" better if you have a larger turbo.
This is my
understanding and is why I asked the question in the
first place. A
bigger turbo will not lean out the mixture at
the same boost pressure and
RPM, as was previously suggested.
Volume is constant (displacement), pressure
is constant, frequency
is constant (RPM), and fuel is constant (IDC).
Therefore, mixture
is unchanged.
> It WILL
> flow better
if you increase the boost, but there is no advantage (other
> than
"boost threshold") of one turbo vs. another when they are at the
same
> boost level. If a stock turbo is keeping the compressor at a
constant 15psi
> at all times, how can a larger turbo have an advantage at
15psi also? The
> larger turbo does not increase the density ratio (# of
air molecules packed
> into each inch) either.
Actually, there can
be an advantage. A bigger turbo has a
maximum efficiency that occurs
higher in the rev band, so
in the upper RPMs, a larger turbo will reduce EGTs
vs. a
smaller turbo for the same boost pressure and RPM. Take
a look
at Maximum Boost on page 24: "Keep in mind at all
times that when
efficiency drops off, heat produced by
the turbo goes up. If a turbo
were sized such that
maximum efficiency occurred at one-third of the rev
range,
efficiency at or near the redline would taper off to where
the
charge temperature would be scorching hot. At the
other extreme, if
maximum efficiency were at the redline,
mid-range temperatures could get out
of hand." "Somewhere
in the middle of the useful rev range of the
engine lies
the best place to locate the maximum efficiency
point."
> A
free flowing exhaust INCREASES boost pressure due to the decrease of
>
back pressure. When installing an exhaust and intake to our cars, HKS,
and
> me, notes an increase of 1psi due to drop in
backpressure.
What do you mean here? The boost controller should
still
limit boost, so boost should not increase. Do you mean
you're
seeing a 1 psi increase at certain RPMs while the
turbo is in the process of
spooling up compared with the
pressure at those RPMs before the exhaust was
installed?
I think a free flowing exhaust increases the rate at which
the
specified boost pressure can be attained and allows
higher boost pressures to
be reached when the limit on
the controller is cranked up.
But as I
already discovered, my stock exhaust is not what is
keeping me from seeing
1.0 bar at high RPMs, it's the safety
feature built in to my SAVC-R that
keeps my mixture from leaning
out. Maybe this feature is just a bonus
as Barry suggests and
folks shouldn't expect it to be in a boost controller
anyway,
but I think the point I was trying to make when I began
this
thread is still valid. Those of you who have tuned the Blitz
to
maintain 1.0 bar at redline with the stock injectors may
want to invest in an
A/F meter to make sure your mixture isn't
too lean.
Thanx for the
discussion!
-Jim
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden,
Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews***
3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030
***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94
Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension,
Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84%
BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark
plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided
brake lines
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Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
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From
owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Oct 25 07:43:50 1998
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Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998
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From: Jim Matthews
<matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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Subject: Re:
Team3S: boost lag
References:
<000701bdff73$1ce2f600$0500a8c0@beast.kingdom.com>
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R.G. wrote:
>
> Jim wrote :
> > When
my AVC-R sees the IDC get above 90%, it starts blinking, and this
> >
is when the boost level starts decreasing.
>
> > "The
display will begin to flash if the injectors reach
> > over 98%
capacity." (so what?)
>
> So, what does it in reality ?? Does
your display start blinking at 90% or like
> Apexi says at 98% ?? IMHO,
98% is way too high for a safety feature ! Maybe it's
> programmable or an
"undocumented feature" ;-)
I admit that it's hard to look down
in the armrest compartment
where my SAVC-R is mounted when taching it out in
3rd, but I'll
stick with 90%, despite what the manual says. I'll try
again
on the way to work tomorrow and post if I find otherwise.
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps
ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
*** 3000GT-Stealth
International (3Si) Member #0030
***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
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Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84%
BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark
plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided
brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph
G-Tech
Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
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From
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From:
"Bill Miller" <millebi@kw.igs.net>
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... as always
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998
11:47:38 -0500
Subject: Team3S: Flow/boost discussion
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Hi all,
Just thought I would add a little something
to this discussion (even though I don't know
a whole lot about turbos). The
Team3S list is more informative in a week than
Starnet/Dragnet has been in a
year. And now on to some blathering ...
The best analogy that I've ever
been told about flow vs pressure is the garden hose vs
fire hose. The
question becomes : What would you rather have aimed at you, a garden hose
or
a fire hose assuming they are both at the same pressure... say 15 PSI. Of course
most
people will answer a garden hose. The reason is that the garden hose is
"flowing" less
water than the fire hose because the diameters are
different. (1 inch garden hose, 3 inch
fire hose, I don't remember the
formula but I'm sure its related by diameter by something
cubed)
Now
applying this to the discussion (very interesting and informative if I may
comment)
there seems to be some discussion/dissention on why one turbo flows
more than another
even when they are at the same pressure (15PSI is 15PSI is
15PSI). Now here's the
interesting question. Has anyone upgraded their
piping in the engine compartment or is
everyone using the same stock pipes?
I'm guessing that Barry (I think he's the one using
the TRE MASC
<sp??>) may have upgraded his piping because that's the whole point of
that
new unit (not exactly but kinda...).
Upgrading the exhaust will
of course allow better "breathing" due to the fact that the
cylinders will be able to "evacuate" faster because of less back
pressure. Now this
assumes that the exhaust manifold has been changed,
because otherwise you wouldn't get
the best use of the freer flowing
exhaust. (Hook up a garden hose to a fire hose; not
much changes in the
garden hose, it still flows about the same).
So, assuming that both ends
(before and after the cylinders) have been increased in size
then Yes a
larger turbo will "flow" more than a smaller one. The reason is that a
larger
turbo will have a different efficiency at different RPMs than a
smaller turbo. I don't
remember the numbers but I think someone was
attempting to get to this point; that a 15G
will give more air flow
(assuming larger piping) than a 9B at 15PSI because of the
differences in
compressor size and efficiency at whatever RPM the turbo is spinning. As
far
as I know turbo compressor wheels will suffer from "cavitation" just
like a water
propeller does if it spins too fast. This relates to the
efficiency of the turbo,
spinning a 9B at twice the speed of a 15G will not
give double the flow.
Someone else mentioned that the biggest difference
between the 9B and 15G were that the
15G will take longer to spool up but
that it wouldn't be able to flow more after it had
achieved a usefull RPM
because 15PSI is 15PSI. The author neglects to mention that they
assumed
stock piping.
---
Sheesh ... I'm all over the place in the post... but
hopefully I may have made my point
that unless we talk about the piping
(Intake and Exhaust) size along with turbo size,
rather than discussing
turbos only, we will end in a futile argument because people will
be
comparing apples to oranges. As someone pointed out 15 PSI is 15 PSI in a stock
intake
with stock exhaust, and it doesn't matter what turbo is in the
middle. (BTW: A lot of my
knowledge about compressors is from my uncle who
owns a couple of patents on compressor
design)
Maybe I helped...
maybe I hindered... but I think I understood all of what everyone is
trying
to say (may not have explained anything but ... hey I tried).
Bill
91
TT "Old Red"
Completely stock.
Humpty Dumpty was
pushed...
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun
Oct 25 09:19:58 1998
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: EGT ! (was: boost
lag)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 10:20:58 -0700
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Actually Roger I agree with you -- they should be before
the turbine. I
should have stated that. The turbo will extract a
varying amount of heat
depending upon exhaust gas velocity and boost.
This may leave one doing too
much guessing.
I currently have one probe
installed in the rear O2 housing. I too have
header which are not yet
installed in the car. My plan is to put the new
pyrometers in the
headers after the collector.
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of R.G.
> Sent:
Sunday, October 25, 1998 2:48 AM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: EGT ! (was: boost
lag)
>
>
> Barry et all,
>
> Great thread !!
Thanks Barry for the superb input :)
>
> > Exactly where EGT is
measured can also make a significant
> difference. Ideally
> >
you want the pyrometer 10" from the flame front. This isn't
>
always possible.
>
> IMHO, the best position to measure EGT is
BEFORE the turbine in
> the manifold.
> But considering your
10" (25.4cm) they should be installed in the
> precats. When
>
the new manifolds are ready I plan to install the probes in there
> as
well as a
> tube comming out to measure the pressure. Barry, where have
you
> installed the
> probes for the TRE ?
>
>
Thanks,
> Roger
> -----------------------
> Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
> 93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
> For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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Subject: Team3S: RE: boost/ lag/turbo
theory
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I have several disagreements with Dave on this :) as
outlined:
Dave Allison wrote:
> I think you're confusing what
specs conveying. A 9B
> turbo does not 'flow 265cfm', nor 15G 'flow
404cfm'.
> CFM is airflow rate. Airflow rate is closely tied to engine
RPM
> What you quoted mean is stock 9B produce 15psi at
> 265cfm, a
lower engine rpm and quickly attainable number. A 15G will
> require
404cfm from the car to reach 15psi of boost.
A 9B doesn't have to be
FLOWING 265cfm to "reach" 15psi PRESSURE. A
15G
doesn't
"require" to be flowing 404cfm to "reach"
15psi PRESSURE.
If 15G car is at 3000rpm and you have it floored, in 3rd
gear, as we all
know we can reach UNGODLY boost pressures (>20psi) BUT
CLEARLY the
engine is pumping WAY too slowly to accept a total of 808cfm =
600+hp!
We are NOT making 600hp at 3000rpm! so we are NOT using 808cfm YET
WE
HAVE 20+psi boost. The turbine is spinning relatively midrange
speed,
being held back by ALL THAT PRESSURE it is making on compressor side.
As RPM's of engine go up, turbine speeds pick up, boost stays
above
20psi...but AIRFLOW is INCREASING. Once you are turning HIGH
ENGINE
rpm's the ENGINE is demanding MORE AIR than the little turbos can
pump
to MAINTAIN 20psi+, so our boost starts FALLING OFF as rpm's get
higher,
until by 7000rpm maybe we have 18psi or so with 15G's. IF we
got to 15
psi with 15G's AT MAX acceptable TURBINE SPEED (max turbo
output
capability) THAT is where turbo would be producing 404cfm. From
simple
formulae, a total of 808cfm makes ABOUT ?600hp (didn't look it up)
which
we really don't reach at 15psi. So, really, we aren't truly
ever
getting 404cfm from them...but it IS a very useful common basis point
of
comparison!
> A larger turbo will not begin to produce high
boost pressures until the cfm
> is much higher, thus boost
lag.
This is just not quite true; see above. A larger turbo can (if
desired)
produce higher boost at same engine rpm if it is designed to do so
by
turbine vs compressor design. Lag is caused (in part) by a
larger
turbine section/clipped turbine wheels so turbine needs MORE
exhaust
flow to turn same shaft rpm/force compressor side.
> I
think what you're saying is that a larger turbo will be producing more
>
airflow at a specific level of boost. Turbos are not rated by how much
>
airflow they produce. They are rated by what amount of airflow is
required
> to achieve a particular level of boost. Generally, the lower
the number,
> the faster they spool up.
Turbos are SPECIFICALLY
rated in part by how much airflow they produce!
A "compressor map"
is specifically a graph of airflow (lbs/hr) on X-axis
vs. pressure ratio on
Y-axis. You don't NEED to have a certain cfm to
have exactly that
pressure; there are a NUMBER of airflow values that
correspond to a certain
psi, and vice-versa.
> The ONLY point of larger turbos is to
raise boost. And perhaps to move the
> torque curve towards the higher
rpm's for performance during higher speeds.
This is not quite
right. There are a number of reasons to get larger
turbochargers.
1) To be able to support a higher boost at a certain RPM target
than
current smaller turbos can muster
2) To be able to make a
CERTAIN boost pressure at a more EFFICIENT
point on compressor map, thus
"beating up" the air less-->LOWER
compressor outlet air
temp-->less likely to detonate, and more DENSE air
for SAME pressure=MORE
oxygen content at SAME pressure as smaller turbo
on less-efficient portion of
ITS compressor map.
3) For more durability--maxxing out a little turbo,
spinning it past
ITS "redline" so as to get the last couple psi
boost, takes toll on the
poor turbo bearings and (smaller turbo with
smaller)
bearings/shafts/thrust surfaces. Going to larger turbo can
sometimes,
therefore, increase reliability.
At least, that is my take
on things; good discussion! What do you
think, Dave?
Jack
Tertadian
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun
Oct 25 09:26:39 1998
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: boost lag, engine
rebuild update
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 10:27:39 -0700
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> -----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of R.G.
> Sent:
Sunday, October 25, 1998 2:48 AM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: boost lag, engine
rebuild update
<snipped>
> One theory is that the BCs
alternates the wastegates and therefore give a
> different top end. Before
I installed the exhaust I got the Blitz
> and did the
> first
testings. After installing DP/Cat and cat-back I haven't
> discovered a
big
> difference. But I'm sure the precats together with the small turbos
are
> representing a major restrictivement in the system. The
Blitz
> held boost up to
> the redline with the stock exhaust too.
Of course I also had a
> drop in boost but
> only about
0.2bars.
As to the DSBC, this makes sense to me, but I recall asking you
about this
once before. In order for the DSBC to control each actuator
separately,
there wouldhave to be two separate solenoids (which as I
understand it, the
DSBC indeed does). Each solenoid would have to have
an completely separate
and independant access to one and only one
actuator. The last time I asked
about this you said it was not
plumbed this way. It must be plumbed this
way in order to control each
actuator individually.
> Yes, it definitely is ! Unfortunately, I
haven't found out what
> signal the IDC
> carries and how it can be
interpreted. But I hope to be able to
> set a desired
> warning
limit too :)
If you let me beta test your logger I'll give you a whole
bunch of signal
specifications ;)
> Cheers,
Roger
Barry
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: boost lag,
engine rebuild update
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 11:07:11 -0700
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> -----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Dave Allison
>
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 1998 1:39 AM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine
rebuild update
Dave,
> First of all, let me say that Barry is
my hero for all the
> pioneering he's
> done with the TRE MASC. I'm
completely jealous of his status as "official
> beta tester of the
3000GT TRE MASC". :)
And it works! Turbo spool-up occurs about
500 RPM lower in the RPM range
with the 83 mm airmeter and the MASC dialed
in.
> But...
Uh oh..a "but"... ;)
> I
think you're confusing what these manufacturer specs are
> conveying. A
9B
> turbo does not 'flow 265cfm', nor does a 15G 'flow
404cfm'.
>
> CFM is simply airflow rate. Airflow rate is closely
tied to
> engine RPM
> (displacement * rpm * 0.5 * volumetric
efficiency) / 1728.
>
> What the specs you quoted mean is that a
stock 9B can
> produce 15psi at
> 265cfm, a lower engine rpm and
quickly attainable number. A 15G will
> require 404cfm from the car to
reach 15psi of boost.
<snip>
> Turbos are not rated by
how much
> airflow they produce. They are rated by what amount of airflow
is required
> to achieve a particular level of boost. Generally, the lower
the number,
> the faster they spool up.
<more stuff
snipped>
I understand what you are saying but what you are suggesting
is contrary to
my information.
> >The point of larger turbos
is not to raise boost but to increase
> the amount
>
> >of
air flowed at a given boost. The side benefit is that larger
>
turbos also
> >can achieve higher boost levels and hold it lopnger
throughout the RPM
> >range.
>
> The ONLY point of larger
turbos is to raise boost. And
> perhaps to move the
> torque curve
towards the higher rpm's for performance during
> higher
speeds.
More airflow means that a given boost pressure can be maintained
longer
throughout the operational range. Clealry pressure and flow are
related, as
you stated.
> For the TRE MASC, were you able to
connect an extra
> pyrometer? Wasn't it
> the MASC that had the
capability of dual EGT gauges? This is too cool!
I have not installed
both pyrometer supplied with the MASC yet. You are
correct though, two
pyrometers are supplied along with a switch to select
which one is
monitored. Some future version of the MASC will allow
concurrent
monitoring of two or more pyrometer channels, and possibly even
two oxygen
sensors.
> BTW, I'd love to pick your brain when it comes time for
me
> to tune the TRE
> MASC. Did you have someone in the cockpit
keeping an eye on the readings?
> How long did it take until you were
comfortable with the A/F ratios? Tell
> us more about your prototype
experiences with this unit! :)
Did you purchase one? Is it in your
hands yet? I will be more than happy
to provide you with any
information I have and act as a sounding board if
you encounter a tuning or
installation quandry.
> Seeya!
>
> Dave
Allison
Regards,
Barry
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Oct 25 10:50:02 1998
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Hell no, we won't
flow! ;) (was RE: boost lag, engine rebuild update)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998
11:51:01 -0700
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> Heya guys!
>
> I hope the charter for
this moderated mailing list includes
> civilized
> disagreements,
cuz I got one here for ya! :) I'm not looking for strife,
> only trying to
kill misinformation before it finds it's way into an FAQ or
> becomes
common knowledge.
Hehe. This is good and it isn't a pissing
contest.
> Please note that formulas below and in previous posts
are
> taken directly
> from several books regarding turbocharging
theory, including, "Maximum
> Boost: Designing, Testing, and
Installing Turbocharger Systems", by Corky
> Bell.
Corky is a
demi-gogue.
<snip>
> You can't say this. increasing PSI
increases CFM, increasing voltage
> does not increase
amperage.
<snip>
Understood. The garden hose analogy
posed by someone else would have been
much better. Instead of using a
larger hose, you open the faucet a little
more.
> Boost is directly
related to airflow. Airflow is a result of boost
> pressure. As you
increase boost (pressure ratio) you increase airflow
> rate(cfm). There is
no such thing as a turbo having "better flow" than
> another
one. That is, unless you are referring to turbo lag. To
> put it
more
> simply:
>
> 15psi is 15psi is 15psi. It doesn't matter
what size the
> turbo that is
> producing it. It won't
"flow" better if you have a larger turbo. It WILL
> flow better
if you increase the boost, but there is no advantage (other
> than
"boost threshold") of one turbo vs. another when they are at the
same
> boost level. If a stock turbo is keeping the compressor at
a
> constant 15psi
> at all times, how can a larger turbo have an
advantage at 15psi also? The
> larger turbo does not increase the density
ratio (# of air
> molecules packed
> into each inch)
either.
The point is, a larger turbo is capable of flowing more air which
allows you
to turn up the boost. The 9B for instance is a tiny
turbo. After a certain
point is is simply incapable of pushing enough
air to maintain a certain
boost level. More air flow is required to
achieve that boost. That is what
I meant by the
following.
> >The overall effect of pressure and flow is of
course
> >inter-related. An engine is really nothing more than an
air
> pump. The more
> >air you can get flowing through it,
the more horsepower that engine can
> >produce. High cylinder
pressures are not an absolute requirement to high
> >flow.
>
Um... yes they are. The only thing that increases flow (cfm) is
>
pressure ratio (boost), increase of displacement, or engine rpm. There
>
simply are no other variables.
Presumably you mean all other things being
equal. Flow increases can be
realized by changing the VE of the engine
which does not remain constant
throughout the RPM range. Cam timng is
an example. Although affected by
among other factors, the cam timing
can play a dramatic role as to both the
VE of the engine and where the
optimal VE occurrs without changing intake
pressure.
Using your
formula the CFM at 7200 RPM is around 380. If, as you say, the
CFM
required to achieve 15 PSI is 265 CFM, why can't the 9B maintain 15
PSI
throughout the RPM range yet a 15G can? There are obviously factors
at play
that are not considered by the above calculation.
The turbine
(hot) side of the 9B and the 15G are virtually identical (only a
small 0.1
difference in a/r ratio). The compressor is what makes the
big
difference in this case. I maintain that the 15G is capable of
pushing more
air through the system and therefore able to maintain a given
boost pressure
(or hgher boost pressures) throughout the RPM
engine.
> >As to the exhaust, all other things being equal, a free
flowing
> exhaust may actually reduce boost pressures.
>
> A
free flowing exhaust INCREASES boost pressure due to the
> decrease
of
> back pressure. When installing an exhaust and intake to our cars,
HKS, and
> me, notes an increase of 1psi due to drop in
backpressure.
This doesn't make sense to me.
A restriction in the
system will pose and impedance to flow and therefore
increase pressure
required to attain a given flow. If the force doing the
pushing remains
constant, removing the restriction to increase flow will
reduce the
pressure. Take gutting the pre-cats as an example. People
claim
that when they gutted the pre-cats spool-up was quicker. This
makes sense.
They also report that boost tends to drop off earlier in the RPM
range.
This also makes sense. The system can move gases more freely
therefore the
pressure drops.
> >This does not mean flow is
decreased, in
> >fact, if boost pressures drop it most likely means
that flow has
> increased
>
> >since there is less
resistance in the system. This is a good thing.
>
> I'm still
having a hard time with this "flow" thing. Maybe I'm
>
misunderstanding you. Are we only talking about airflow AFTER the
exhaust
> manifold? Obviously you don't get the same psi AFTER the
manifold
> as you do
> BEFORE the manifold. Even then I don't
understand how the "flow" will be
> affected after the turbine
outlet is done with the exhaust.
Oh hell, now I'm confused ;)
(j/k)
I need to take some time to formulate a cohesive treatise I
guess. You do
make some good points which I do agree with, but some
points I can't accept
with my current understanding which admittedly could be
wrong *grin*.
Yes, higher boost means more air being pushed through the
system. However,
a larger turbo has the *capacity* to ush more air
through the system,
thereby making it able to attain and maintain higher
boost levels. And no,
a larger turbo does not change the molecular
formula of air - that made me
chuckle. However, a larger compressor
turbine which pushes more volume air
will reduce the amount of heat
transferred to the intake air. That means
the air will be denser
(increasing effective airflow) than air that has been
heated due to being
beat up by a smaller turbine.
Retsrictions in the exhaust means the
engine (and the turbo) have to work
harder to overcome them. Given the
airflow capacity to do this, intake
pressures will be higher. Reduce
the exhaust pressure with the same force
applied (at some threshhold
obviously) and intake pressures will drop.
> Finally, let me say
thanks to all the great informative posts I've had
the
> privilege to
peruse this week. Some quality info to be gleaned from
them.
Agreed. Good food for thought and an opportunity to increase
or modify
one's knowledge base.
> Those poor souls at starnet will
have to be happy with discussions of
wiper
> fluids and chromed brake
calipers. :)
Doh!
> Seeya!
>
> Dave
Allison
Regards,
Barry
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 20:20:54
+0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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> In order for the DSBC to control each actuator
separately,
> there would have to be two separate solenoids (which as I
understand it, the
> DSBC indeed does).
The DSBC indeed has two
solenoid valves BUT they are connected in parallel. This
means they are
quicker in opening and closing than a big one that can handle the
same
pressure. This also allows Blitz to stitch them on and off more quickly
than
others, allowing to alternate (opening and closing) the wastegates in
a
better and faster way (frequency) than others.
> Each solenoid
would have to have an completely separate
> and independant access to one
and only one actuator.
> The last time I asked about this you said
it was not plumbed this way.
Yes, the Blitz DSBC has only one pressure
input and one output (two solenoids in
one box)
> It must be
plumbed this way in order to control each actuator individually.
I agree,
but as we have turbos of the same size different actuation of the
wastegates
doesn't make sense to me.
Maybe I used the wrong terms when I tried to
describe the way the DSBC relieves
the pressure to the wastegate actuators.
As it has smaller solenoid valves it is
able to "alternate" the
wastegates by open and close them very quickly. Even due
to the design I
think the valves are able to reduce the pressure in the actuator
lines
compared to the feeding line by alternating the solenoids very quickly.
I
think I'll hook up the electrical boost-sensors to the IN and OUT lines to
check
this out. Also my diag tool will be able to measure the voltage that
goes to the
solenoids of any controller so everybody can record the way his
setup works.
> If you let me beta test your logger I'll give you a
whole bunch of signal
> specifications ;)
Hehe, the prototype will
be my own car and I currently haven't decided what the
baby can do at the end
:) I'll let you know when it becomes to live.
Cheers,
Roger
-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT
TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual
Timer,Apexi AFC,SBOV,ATR DP/cat,
Borla,OZ Mito2,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake
lines,Bremsa brakes,Pagid RS-R pads
Ready: GT-Alley 368S Turbos,front mount
IC/ stainless steel piping,G-Force ECU
(3 EPROMS),fuel pump,VPC,GCC,720
Injectors,Blitz Filter/GT-Alley VPC adapter,
Visit my homepage under:
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Smoke from
pipes
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<363217D1.BC43B6CF@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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> Well, ya know
where to look at. Just pull the soft IC pipes from the y-pipe
> and look
if there's some oil deposit. Mine looked like the small picture I
>
attached (sorry guys, I don't have it on my website yet) and this was
>
definitely too much.
Let's see if I can attach the pics now :) (hey, they
are pretty small)
Watch the oil in the piping
!!
Cheers,
Roger
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun
Oct 25 11:33:00 1998
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: boost
lag
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 12:34:00 -0700
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Okay, this is concurrent with my understanding. When
you said "alternate"
the actuators I thought you were saying it
would open one wastegate, then
the other. This actually would not be a
bad idea (maybe) since you could
likely control boost more precisely by
making one turbo do more work than
the other. It's a theory
;)
Anyway, two smaller solenoids does make sense. They can probably
be made to
react more quickly than the single larger solenoid used by every
other EVC
out there.
Regards,
Barry
>
-----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of R.G.
> Sent:
Sunday, October 25, 1998 12:21 PM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: boost
lag
>
>
> > In order for the DSBC to control each actuator
separately,
> > there would have to be two separate solenoids (which as
I
> understand it, the
> > DSBC indeed does).
>
> The
DSBC indeed has two solenoid valves BUT they are connected in
> parallel.
This
> means they are quicker in opening and closing than a big one
that
> can handle the
> same pressure. This also allows Blitz to
stitch them on and off
> more quickly
> than others, allowing to
alternate (opening and closing) the
> wastegates in a
> better and
faster way (frequency) than others.
>
> > Each solenoid would
have to have an completely separate
> > and independant access to one
and only one actuator.
> > The last time I asked about this you
said it was not plumbed this way.
>
> Yes, the Blitz DSBC has only
one pressure input and one output
> (two solenoids in
> one
box)
>
> > It must be plumbed this way in order to control each
actuator
> individually.
>
> I agree, but as we have turbos of
the same size different actuation of the
> wastegates doesn't make sense
to me.
>
> Maybe I used the wrong terms when I tried to describe the
way the
> DSBC relieves
> the pressure to the wastegate actuators.
As it has smaller
> solenoid valves it is
> able to
"alternate" the wastegates by open and close them very
>
quickly. Even due
> to the design I think the valves are able to reduce
the pressure
> in the actuator
> lines compared to the feeding line
by alternating the solenoids
> very quickly. I
> think I'll hook up
the electrical boost-sensors to the IN and OUT
> lines to check
>
this out. Also my diag tool will be able to measure the voltage
> that
goes to the
> solenoids of any controller so everybody can record the way
his
> setup works.
>
> > If you let me beta test your
logger I'll give you a whole bunch
> of signal
> > specifications
;)
>
> Hehe, the prototype will be my own car and I currently
haven't
> decided what the
> baby can do at the end :) I'll let you
know when it becomes to live.
>
> Cheers, Roger
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun
Oct 25 11:47:49 1998
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Smoke from
pipes
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 12:48:49 -0700
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I suspect the black smoke very commonly seen coming from
the tailpipes of
otherwise healthy turbocharged engines is probably due to
the incomplete
combustion of the suddenly enriched fuel charge that occurs
when the
throttle is initially tromped
upon.
Regards,
Barry
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From
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Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: boost lag, engine rebuild
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In a message dated 98-10-24 17:27:48 EDT, you
write:
<< Since tuning in the MASC I haven't been reaching above
98% (typically hit
92-94% -- still too high IMO) so I would not have
experienced this
situation. Kind of a nice safety feature actually.
>>
Anyone here use larger injectors than 550/560's? I'm
running 99% injector at
only 17psi with my 560's.
Mike - '94 Stealth
tt Best et: 11.6 Best mph: 120.7
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
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From
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Subject: Team3S: MASC tuning and testing :)
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All,
We'll I finally got my TRE
MASC pretty well tuned in (still doesn't Idle
well, but next week I'm going
to test two more chips for TRE and we should
have a final version ready in
two or so weeks:) so I went to the track to see
if I gained any extra
power.
First run I ran low boost (17.5-18psi) to make sure
everything was okay.
Launched a little low, man I hate when I do that!, so I
bogged off the line.
But I still managed a 1.87 60-foot. Didn't speed
shift (usually I do)
considering it was my first track pass with the MASC and
I wanted to make sure
everything was okay. When I shifted into third I
had a good chance to look at
the display unit that comes with the MASC and
everything looked good.. 18psi,
EGT's mid 1600's, 02's .86, injector duty a
little high at 99%. Ended up
running 11.81 at 120.7mph.
Second run,
even though the injector duty cycle was at 99%, I decided to run a
little
more boost. At 20psi, in 2nd gear the car violently hit 99%
injector
duty and shut the fuel down. Damn... ran a 20something
at 38mph..lol!
Third run backed the boost down to 19psi, peaked out the
injectors in 3rd gear
this time and ended up with a 13.38 at
83mph.
What does all that mean? We'll my best mph before the MASC
was 119.96. First
and only full pass with the MASC I saw
120.7mph. So the car is definatly
making more power! :) Only
problem is it is making TOO MUCH power for my
560cc injectors so I'm going to
have to shell out some more $$$ for larger
injectors.. Thinking about
trying something around 650cc's..
So, in short, I am VERY happy with my
TRE MASC :). To the point I am
considering the possibility of becoming
an authorized dealer for the MASC and
helping others install/tune their
cars!
Mike Mahaffey - '94 Stealth tt Best et: 11.6 Best mph:
120.7mph
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun
Oct 25 13:54:08 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: MASC tuning and
testing :)
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Mike, I'm confused. I ran my 15g's with hks 550cc inj/vpc
at 23lbs and I had
leaned the mixtures. I'm not short of fuel. I think you
may be getting ecu
fuel cut. Why would you need larger injectors? Are you
sure your not starving
the settings?
Arty 91 VR-4
In a message
dated 10/25/98 9:38:05 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
LotoBoost@aol.com
writes:
<<
Second run, even though the
injector duty cycle was at 99%, I decided to run
a
little more
boost. At 20psi, in 2nd gear the car violently hit 99% injector
duty
and shut the fuel down. Damn... ran a 20something at
38mph..lol!
Third run backed the boost down to 19psi, peaked out the
injectors in 3rd
gear
this time and ended up with a 13.38 at
83mph.
What does all that mean? We'll my best mph before the MASC
was 119.96.
First
and only full pass with the MASC I saw 120.7mph.
So the car is definatly
making more power! :) Only problem is it is
making TOO MUCH power for my
560cc injectors so I'm going to have to shell
out some more $$$ for larger
injectors.. Thinking about trying
something around 650cc's..
So, in short, I am VERY happy with my TRE MASC
:). >>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun
Oct 25 14:09:04 1998
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Subject: Team3S: Tuning the Blitz (New
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Well after five months I finally got
around to tweaking my Blitz
DSBC today. Before I was running a gain of
25, ratio of 50 and the
limiter set at 0 (off). With those settings I
was getting a boost spike
to 16-17 psi then dropping to 14 psi through 5500
RPM. After that it
was a slow drop to 10 psi at 6800
RPM.
I collected all the posts and the detailed
instructions (yea right!)
and set out for a little cruise on the
Autobahn. Initially I had the
following:
Gain 30
Ratio
45
Limiter -10
Scramble P=10, C=3 (which is a ratio of 10 for
three seconds I think)
For all settings I was going
about 70 mph in third when I would
floor it all the way to 6800, then
shift. So all these figures are for
third gear. I was only
getting 12.5 psi out of this setup with a double
peak at 16 psi.
Meaning it would go to 16, drop to about 13 then bounce
off 16 again before
settling back to 12.5 psi. I assumed the double
peak was because of the
scramble so I turned that off. After a little
more testing I came to
the following figures:
Gain 33
Ratio 48
Limiter -5
Scramble
Off
Once again flooring it in third, I would get an
immediate jump to
15.5 psi, then quickly drop to 14 psi and stay there till
5500. Then it
would slowly drop to 12 psi at 6800 RPM! So this is
2 psi better than I
could get in any other setting. And it sort of
proves out Roger and
Mikael's contention that the Blitz will maintain psi
after 5500 RPM. I
think if I do a little more testing I can get it to
maintain 14 psi at
6800 RPM. I tried bringing the limiter down to -1
but that did not seem
to have much affect. The instructions are a
little (OK a lot) foggy on
how the limiter ratio is calculated (any insights
Roger?). But I am
still very happy with these
numbers.
To be honest I was a believer it the theory that
the European turbos
were different than the U.S. models. I know that
Jim and Roger compared
numbers on the turbo housings, but I think the
wheels could be
different. Which would make sense, because the European
model needs to
be able to sustain the very high Autobahn speeds. Where
as the U.S.
model just needs the quick acceleration.
Another interesting thing I noticed this evening when I was
driving
home. I was in fifth @ 65 mph and <3000 RPM. I punched
it and heard
the warning beep go off every three seconds or so.
So I slowed down to
65 again and floored it, this time watching the boost
guage. The boost
bounced between 12 and 15.5 psi about four times until
the RPMs reached
3500, then it stuck at 14 psi. Roads were a wet it was
dark, traffic,
so I was not about to run it up to redline :) Any ideas
on this
behavior, and most importantly is it bad for the car? Overall I
think
it was a successful day.
Mike C.
0018
'95 Stealth RT
TT
K&N, test pipe, Borla exhaust, Magnecor wires, Centerforce DF
clutch,
2nd Getrag, Blitz DSBC, plug gap 0.042, Alamo downpipe on the
way.
P.S. Now if the roads would just dry enough for me to try
Jim's
G-Tech. Probably have to wait another five months for that.
:)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun
Oct 25 14:13:31 1998
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Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 17:10:55
-0500
From: josesini <josesini@engin.umich.edu>
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To:
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Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: Clutch (sepcifically
new RPS)
References:
<001801bdfed3$6825bc60$0500a8c0@beast.kingdom.com>
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Barry,
This is great news! I thought they had
stopped this project or
something like that. I'm guessing that in a
couple of weeks everyone
else should be able to get this clutch.
Those 60
foot times are great. 1.5 - Wow! I guess if everything goes
as
predicted I know what my next clutch is going to
be...
Michael,,
Another clutch I forgot to mentioned last time, is
the racing/street
clutch by EXEDY. I know of only one 3S car with it
and he just
installed it so we'll see what happens. Also make sure you
check-out
Bob Fontana's webpage for the custom clutch he uses. I
believe it is
someplace in Florida that manufactures them. Not sure if
it's just the
disk or the pressure plate as well.
Later,
Jose
92 TT
"Barry E. King"
wrote:
>
> I have the latest verion of the RPS kevlar clutch in a
box. This new
> version is the final version (barring any new
problems) which supposedly
> will be available to the general
public.
>
> It looks good in real life. It is also very light
which should make it
> easier on the synchros.
>
> The week
old version shipped to me is supposedly one generation beyond the
> clutch
currently in the RPS 700 RWHP Supra TT which uses the same diameter
>
friction plate.
<SNIP>
> 60' times on the Supra were consistent
1.5 with no top end slip. That's on
> a 700 HP RWD car with wrinkle
wall slicks squeezing 100 shot of nitrous out
> of the hole. We'll
see how it holds up to the demands of AWD with more than
> a few HP behind
it.
>
<SNIP>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun
Oct 25 14:30:51 1998
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: Clutch
(sepcifically new RPS)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 15:31:52 -0700
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stealth-3000gt
It sounds good yes. The only problem is I am the
only 3/S owner with this
particular clutch comnpound and my car is down so I
cannot test it...not
cool. There is at least one other out there with
an earlier compound.
Someone else willing to test it needs to get RPS to
give them a good deal on
one. That way I can decide if I will put it in
or not ;) j/k It is going
in unless ROb calls me and tells me
something that convinces me otherwise.
Barry
>
-----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of josesini
> Sent:
Sunday, October 25, 1998 3:11 PM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: Clutch
(sepcifically new RPS)
>
>
> Barry,
>
> This is
great news! I thought they had stopped this project or
> something
like that. I'm guessing that in a couple of weeks everyone
> else
should be able to get this clutch.
> Those 60 foot times are
great. 1.5 - Wow! I guess if everything goes
> as predicted I
know what my next clutch is going to be...
>
>
Michael,,
>
> Another clutch I forgot to mentioned last time, is the
racing/street
> clutch by EXEDY. I know of only one 3S car with it
and he just
> installed it so we'll see what happens. Also make sure
you check-out
> Bob Fontana's webpage for the custom clutch he uses.
I believe it is
> someplace in Florida that manufactures them. Not
sure if it's just the
> disk or the pressure plate as
well.
>
> Later,
>
> Jose
> 92 TT
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun
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Subject: Re: Team3S: MASC tuning and testing :)
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In a message dated 10/25/98 4:55:22 PM Eastern Standard
Time, Aso8@aol.com
writes:
<< Mike, I'm confused. I ran my 15g's
with hks 550cc inj/vpc at 23lbs and I
had
leaned the mixtures. I'm not
short of fuel. I think you may be getting ecu
fuel cut. Why would you need
larger injectors? Are you sure your not starving
the settings?
>>
I think I am getting ECU fuel cut also. The problem I am
having is to run the
fuel I need (above 17-18psi) to keep the EGT's from
getting up into the
piston-melting 1700deg. plus range, I need to run the
injectors all the way up
to 99% duty cycle. But when the ECU see's the
need for >99% duty it shuts
things down. So to get around the
problem, I either need to try a FPR and
then lean out the air-flow a hair, or
just go with larger injectors (that wont
need to be driven at 99% duty cycle
to support the kind of hp I'm making).
Mike Mahaffey - '94 Stealth tt
Best et: 11.6 Best mph: 120.7
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Oct 25 17:15:42 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: MASC tuning and
testing :)
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Imho, your in need of a G-Force ECU to remove the Fuel cut
limiter. Getting
larger injectors is not the cure. I here the DSM guys bypass
the fuel cut
limiter (trick it) although I'm not up on the specifics. This
may be a less
expensive alternative. But with the 550cc's I still can run
rich with the
15g's and I'd hate to think of larger injectors without MUCH
larger turbos.
Maybe someone can explain the bypass to see if it would remove
your problem.
Then you can determine if you'd still need the injectors. I've
been there. The
ecu is the way to go.
Arty 91 VR-4
In a message
dated 10/26/98 12:16:14 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
LotoBoost@aol.com
writes:
<< bj: Re: Team3S: MASC tuning and
testing :)
Date: 10/26/98 12:16:14 AM !!!First Boot!!!
From:
LotoBoost@aol.com
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Reply-to:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
In a
message dated 10/25/98 4:55:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Aso8@aol.com
writes:
<< Mike, I'm confused. I ran my 15g's with
hks 550cc inj/vpc at 23lbs and I
had
leaned the mixtures. I'm not
short of fuel. I think you may be getting ecu
fuel cut. Why would you
need larger injectors? Are you sure your not
starving
the settings?
>>
I think I am getting ECU fuel cut also. The problem I am
having is to run
the
fuel I need (above 17-18psi) to keep the EGT's from
getting up into the
piston-melting 1700deg. plus range, I need to run the
injectors all the way
up
to 99% duty cycle. But when the ECU see's
the need for >99% duty it shuts
things down. So to get around the
problem, I either need to try a FPR and
then lean out the air-flow a hair, or
just go with larger injectors (that
wont
need to be driven at 99% duty
cycle to support the kind of hp I'm making).
>>
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun
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In a message dated 10/25/98 8:34:14 PM Eastern Standard
Time, Aso8@aol.com
writes:
<< Imho, your in need of a G-Force
ECU to remove the Fuel cut limiter. Getting
larger injectors is not the cure.
I here the DSM guys bypass the fuel cut
limiter (trick it) although I'm not
up on the specifics. This may be a less
expensive alternative. But with the
550cc's I still can run rich with the
15g's and I'd hate to think of larger
injectors without MUCH larger turbos.
Maybe someone can explain the bypass to
see if it would remove your problem.
Then you can determine if you'd still
need the injectors. I've been there.
The
ecu is the way to go.
>>
The reason why I believe I need more fuel is because to keep my
EGT's from
unsafe levels I have to run 99% injector duty cycle above
18psi. I could get
an ECU w/o fuel cut and run more boost, but then I'd
be running way lean..
and chance melting a few valves and
pistons..
Mike Mahaffey - '94 Stealth tt Best et: 11.6 Best mph:
120.7
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun
Oct 25 18:11:21 1998
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: MASC tuning and
testing :)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 19:12:25 -0700
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stealth-3000gt
I disagree with the injector comment.
Assuming Mike
has the appropriate mixture and he's still hitting 99% IDC,
that to me, is a
clear indication that not enough fuel is being delivered
for the amount of
air. Given a fuel pump and FPOR up to the task, larger
injectors are
indicated. This also presumes the airmeter is not too small
for the
application.
The way the MASC works is by converting the analog voltage
signal from the
Pro-M hotwire airmeter into a digitalfrequency that the ECU
expects. The
stock MAS sends a frequency, not a voltage. If the
airmeter were
incorrectly calibrated, or the frequency generated were
incorrect for the
given airflow, the ECU may detect fuel cut.
I had
never hit fuel cut until I started messing with the MASC. I wanted
to
see how much it took to force fel cut. I added to the airflow signal
up top
(thereby also increasing fuel) just to see what it would do.
Sure enough I
hit fuel cut. I was way too rich but I wanted to see
where it happened.
There is plenty of room for tuning with the MASC ROM I
have so accomodating
much larger injectors shouldn't be a
problem.
There are a couple of ways to defeat fuel cut, the MASC itself
is one of
them assuming you are running rich when you hit fuel cut. At
99% IDC,
however, assuming a correct AFR, new injectors are indeed
indicated. Fuel
pressure and flow is also something to check first, of
course, but I have
maintained for a while that 550s (560s in Mike's case) are
too small for a
15G application.
There's a horribly long formula to
accurately calculate injector size but my
figures come up with 620.
650s would be safe. Anyone running 720s is well
ahead of the
game.
Fuel cut is a safety feature imposed when some airflow threshold is
exceeded
as detected by the ECU. The fuel maps only go up to certain
airflow figures
so as a safety feature the ECU shuts down the fun. It
is an indication that
something isn't right. Defeating fuel cut may be
appropriate in some cases
but it certainly should not be the first course of
action. Mike is already
running appropriately lean so he can't reduce
the airflow signal to the ECU
(which would reduce fuel cut) any more than he
already has.
The DSM tricks work on many other cars too. You put a
10 KOhm potentiometer
on the barometric pressure sensor to trick the ECU into
thinking it is at a
higher elevation and therefore has less oxygen in the air
thereby increasing
the fuel cut threshold. You could also do something
siumilar with the IAT
sensor. Another trick is to change the metering
screw in the factory MAS
which as I understand it allows more unmetered air
through, leaning out the
mixture at a given airflow, again increasing the
fuel cut limit.
Both of these are hacks that should only be tried once
you are certain that
the engine is operating rich. If that were the
case then I would be
inclined to aggree that the right thing is to fix the
ECU. This doesn't
seem to apply to Mike's
situation.
Barry
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Aso8@aol.com
>
Sent: Sunday, October 25, 1998 6:15 PM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Cc: Aso8@aol.com
> Subject: Re:
Team3S: MASC tuning and testing :)
>
>
> Imho, your in need of
a G-Force ECU to remove the Fuel cut
> limiter. Getting
> larger
injectors is not the cure. I here the DSM guys bypass the fuel cut
>
limiter (trick it) although I'm not up on the specifics. This may
> be a
less
> expensive alternative. But with the 550cc's I still can run rich
with the
> 15g's and I'd hate to think of larger injectors without
MUCH
> larger turbos.
> Maybe someone can explain the bypass to see
if it would remove
> your problem.
> Then you can determine if you'd
still need the injectors. I've
> been there. The
> ecu is the way to
go.
> Arty 91 VR-4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun
Oct 25 21:28:34 1998
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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 00:25:54
-0500
From: josesini <josesini@engin.umich.edu>
Organization: The
University of Michigan
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Subject: Re: Team3S: MASC tuning and testing
:)
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I'm not proclaiming myself an expert on the fuel system,
but by my
calculations (in most situations) you should not be hitting fuel
cut at
18psi w/ 560s or even 550s. My opinion is that your injectors
are not
getting enough fuel rates.
Here are some things I would check
before replacing the injectors with
650s or bigger:
Sorry for
mentioning the obvious but I just have to, I am assuming you
have replaced
the fuel pump w/ the 369Lph @ 70psi or something like
that.
If so,
then do the following:
1) Measure the fuel pressure (or fuel flow rates)
before and after the
fuel filter. If a drastic decrease in pressure is
found, you either
have a supper clogged filter or most commonly one of the
eyebolts that
connect to the fuel filter is somewhat miss aligned and is
restricting
the fuel lines. To align it count how many turns it takes
to unscrew
it, then look where the hole in the eyebolt is and where you want
it to
be pointing, and then reverse count the number of turns and you
should
know where to place it when you start screwing it back on.
2)
Measure the voltage at the fuel pump. If it's way less than 10v or
so,
something is wrong with the wiring. Between 10 and 12volts is
normal
due to the poor wires in the stock system.
3) there might be another
problem, but I do not know how to fix it nor
how to check for it.
Maybe some one in the list can give light to a
way of detecting and/or fixing
it.
The 3/S twin turbo car's fuel system has two modes of operation:
A
cruising/idling mode and a high fuel rate mode. In the cruising
mode,
the voltage that goes to the fuel pump is diverted by the ECU to
go
through a resistor thus yielding lower fuel rates coming out of the
fuel
pump. But during heavy engine loads (such as WOT) the resistor
is
bypassed (as controlled by the ECU) and the fuel pump delivers
higher
flow rates. Maybe in your car, the system is stock going through
the
resistor. I would think the service manuals would mention
something
about this. Unfortunately mine are with my mechanic, just in
case...
Hopefully he won't need to use them! :)
I hope this
helps some.
Jose
92 R/T TT
LotoBoost@aol.com
wrote:
>
><SNIP>
>
> The reason why I believe I
need more fuel is because to keep my EGT's from
> unsafe levels I have to
run 99% injector duty cycle above 18psi. I could get
> an ECU w/o
fuel cut and run more boost, but then I'd be running way lean..
> and
chance melting a few valves and pistons..
>
> Mike Mahaffey - '94
Stealth tt Best et: 11.6 Best mph: 120.7
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Oct 25 22:53:34 1998
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From: "GT_ALLEY" <thegtalley@email.msn.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: boost/
lag/turbo theory
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 23:01:28 -0800
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Hi guys,
I jumped into this thread, mid-stream,
but Jack has hit this one right on
the mark!!!! Compressor map and correct
Turbine/Compressor combination for a
given application are key...Good job
Jack!!
This is VERY refreshing to see the commitment to REAL issues and
intelligent
discussions. Applause to you all!!
I will be lurking, most
of the time due to time constraints, but if anyone
want's to ask me anything
directly, please feel free.
Go, PRO-LIST!
Brian@
The GT
ALLEY
3/S Performance Central
-----Original Message-----
From:
xwing <xwing@execpc.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Sunday, October 25, 1998 9:27
AM
Subject: Team3S: RE: boost/ lag/turbo theory
>I have several
disagreements with Dave on this :) as outlined:
>
>Dave
Allison wrote:
>> I think you're confusing what specs conveying. A
9B
>> turbo does not 'flow 265cfm', nor 15G 'flow 404cfm'.
>>
CFM is airflow rate. Airflow rate is closely tied to engine RPM
>> What
you quoted mean is stock 9B produce 15psi at
>> 265cfm, a lower engine
rpm and quickly attainable number. A 15G will
>> require 404cfm from
the car to reach 15psi of boost.
>
>A 9B doesn't have to be FLOWING
265cfm to "reach" 15psi PRESSURE. A
15G
>doesn't
>"require" to be flowing 404cfm to
"reach" 15psi PRESSURE.
>
>If 15G car is at 3000rpm and
you have it floored, in 3rd gear, as we all
>know we can reach UNGODLY
boost pressures (>20psi) BUT CLEARLY the
>engine is pumping WAY too
slowly to accept a total of 808cfm = 600+hp!
>We are NOT making 600hp at
3000rpm! so we are NOT using 808cfm YET WE
>HAVE 20+psi boost. The
turbine is spinning relatively midrange speed,
>being held back by ALL
THAT PRESSURE it is making on compressor side.
>As RPM's of engine go up,
turbine speeds pick up, boost stays above
>20psi...but AIRFLOW is
INCREASING. Once you are turning HIGH ENGINE
>rpm's the ENGINE is
demanding MORE AIR than the little turbos can pump
>to MAINTAIN 20psi+, so
our boost starts FALLING OFF as rpm's get higher,
>until by 7000rpm maybe
we have 18psi or so with 15G's. IF we got to 15
>psi with 15G's AT
MAX acceptable TURBINE SPEED (max turbo output
>capability) THAT is where
turbo would be producing 404cfm. From simple
>formulae, a total of
808cfm makes ABOUT ?600hp (didn't look it up) which
>we really don't reach
at 15psi. So, really, we aren't truly ever
>getting 404cfm from
them...but it IS a very useful common basis point
of
>comparison!
>
>> A larger turbo will not begin to
produce high boost pressures until the
cfm
>> is much higher, thus
boost lag.
>
>This is just not quite true; see above. A larger
turbo can (if desired)
>produce higher boost at same engine rpm if it is
designed to do so by
>turbine vs compressor design. Lag is caused
(in part) by a larger
>turbine section/clipped turbine wheels so turbine
needs MORE exhaust
>flow to turn same shaft rpm/force compressor
side.
>
>> I think what you're saying is that a larger turbo will
be producing more
>> airflow at a specific level of boost. Turbos are
not rated by how much
>> airflow they produce. They are rated by what
amount of airflow is
required
>> to achieve a particular level of
boost. Generally, the lower the number,
>> the faster they spool
up.
>
>Turbos are SPECIFICALLY rated in part by how much airflow
they produce!
>A "compressor map" is specifically a graph of
airflow (lbs/hr) on X-axis
>vs. pressure ratio on Y-axis. You don't
NEED to have a certain cfm to
>have exactly that pressure; there are a
NUMBER of airflow values that
>correspond to a certain psi, and
vice-versa.
>
>> The ONLY point of larger turbos is to raise
boost. And perhaps to move
the
>> torque curve towards the higher
rpm's for performance during higher
speeds.
>
>This is not quite
right. There are a number of reasons to get
larger
>turbochargers.
>1) To be able to support a higher
boost at a certain RPM target than
>current smaller turbos can
muster
>2) To be able to make a CERTAIN boost pressure at a more
EFFICIENT
>point on compressor map, thus "beating up" the air
less-->LOWER
>compressor outlet air temp-->less likely to detonate,
and more DENSE air
>for SAME pressure=MORE oxygen content at SAME pressure
as smaller turbo
>on less-efficient portion of ITS compressor
map.
>3) For more durability--maxxing out a little turbo, spinning
it past
>ITS "redline" so as to get the last couple psi boost,
takes toll on the
>poor turbo bearings and (smaller turbo with
smaller)
>bearings/shafts/thrust surfaces. Going to larger turbo can
sometimes,
>therefore, increase reliability.
>
>At least, that
is my take on things; good discussion! What do you
>think,
Dave?
>
>Jack Tertadian
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun
Oct 25 23:46:32 1998
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From:
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To:
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Subject: RE: Team3S: MASC tuning and
testing :)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:45:42 +0100
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Hmmm
This is maybe a dumb questioin. Is your
Injectors really doing 99% of what they are capable to or are they open 99% of
their cycle. If the second is true then maybe higher fuel preasure will cure the
problem.
Higher fuel preasure will give more fuel without changing the
cycle of the injector.
Just asking :)
/Mikael
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 26 00:12:58 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: MASC tuning and
testing :)
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Not to be disagree, I just feel my 15g's run fine with
550cc injectors. My
EGT's are well within safe temp ranges @ 1 bar on all
except the most extreme
runs. When racing @23lbs boost & race gas, My VPC
settings are in the lean
range and can be moved up substantially. It may be
that my cars set up is a
bit different then Mike's. Larger piping and
enlarged fuel lines, fuel pump
etc., that is giving me this opinion. I can
only gauge from driving my car. If
Mike is getting hi egt's with 550 inj I
feel something is wrong with the fuel
delivery and may not be the injector
size? Otherwise, I should have the same
problem?
Arty 91 VR-4
In a
message dated 10/26/98 2:12:48 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
beking@home.com
writes:
<< ere are a couple of ways to defeat
fuel cut, the MASC itself is one of
them assuming you are running rich when
you hit fuel cut. At 99% IDC,
however, assuming a correct AFR, new
injectors are indeed indicated. Fuel
pressure and flow is also
something to check first, of course, but I have
maintained for a while that
550s (560s in Mike's case) are too small for a
15G application.
>>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 26 04:57:53 1998
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From: Bob Fontana
<bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: "'Stealth List'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: boost/lag/turbo
theory
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 07:57:25 -0500
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Technologies Group, Inc.
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Couple of questions and comments.
1. Of everyone
who has one or more EGTs, has anyone located the probe in the
header of
manifold? The turbo itself? The reason I asked is because I'm
getting ready to relocate mine from the 02 housing to the rear exhaust
manifold
rather than the turbo. Although preferrable in location, it
doesn't look like
the funnel of the turbo is anywhere near big enough in
diameter to allow the
full insertion of the probe (2.25").
Partial insertion might affect the
reading since a significant part of the
probe would be outside of the turbo.
Anyone know this for sure?
2.
More on boost drop. A high VE motor is the "fire hose" in the
garden-hose/fire-hose example. For a fire hose (freer-flowing motor)
to
maintain the same pressure as a garden hose (stock motor) you need a
bigger
pump (turbo). Take four identical 15G turbos. Eliminate
the air box
restrictions on both cars and put two on a free-flowing motor
and two on a
stock motor. Set the desired boost level to 30 PSI.
Take them both to 7000
RPMs in 2nd gear. Which one gets there
first? Why? "More horsepower", you
say.
Because the free-flowing motor is better able to process the air "doled
out" by the turbos. In lower RPMs, say at 4000, the turbos can
produce more
air than the engine can process. Both vehicles should see
roughly the same
maximum boost level at that RPM. As RPMs increase,
it's like changing the
garden hose to a fire hose. More RPMs mean more
gulps of air per second. More
gulps is more flow. If you have
turbos capable of producing X CFM and a motor
capable of processing X+200
CFM at 7000 RPM, you will see a drop in boost
because the turbos will not be
able to keep the intake side of the motor
pressurized. We need our
cake and eat it too. Sustained pressure AND good
flow. Bigger
turbos will allow us to do that.
3. Air cleaners - Restrictions to the
compressor side (airbox) can prevent
turbos from reaching their maximum
output and therefore boost is somewhat
limited. Take the restriction
away and the turbo can pull more air through
itself, thereby increasing the
amount of pressure in the intake manifold.
4. Exhaust backpressure - the
reason any turbine wheel spins is because of the
pressure differential on
either side of the turbine. If you were somehow able
to pressurize
your downpipe, the turbine wheel would stop spinning when the
pressure on
the downstream side equaled the pressure on the upstream side.
That would be
an extreme case, but in real-life, pre-cats sitting just
downstream of the
turbos will introduce enough backpressure to affect spool-up
and therefore,
boost.
-Bob
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 26 05:35:54 1998
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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:35:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis
Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
To: "'Stealth List'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Who's the Target
Audience?
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<01BE00B6.46555D40.bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
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Hi all,
Just wondering: is there anyone else on
this list who *doesn't* own a
turbo S/3K? 90% of the discussion
recently has been about issues that
don't really relate to my car, so I've
been hitting the delete key a lot.
(I'll be following up with a couple more
clutch questions later.)
Dennis Moore
stealth@kiva.net
What's
the difference between a Mechanical Engineer and a Civil Engineer?
Mechanical
Engineers build Weapons, Civil Engineers build
Targets!
*similarly*
There are two kinds of ocean-going vessels in
this world:
submarines and targets!
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From
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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:47:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis
Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
To: "'Stealth List'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Clutches (and I don't
mean "eggs")
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OK, here's a follow up to my earlier question about
predicting the end of
your clutch's life. Let's say I'm driving around
town in 3rd gear, 3-4000
RPM. As I vary my throttle position the car
speed responds in a very
linear fashion (as it should) - MOST of the throttle
travel. As I drop
engine RPMs down past a certain point, the whole car
lurches. Conversely,
when I re-engage the throttle, the car lurches
again. I've tried varying
the rate at which I change the throttle, but
can't seem to find a rate at
which it doesn't happen.
It seems to me
that the transition from the "engine driving the wheels" to
the
"wheels driving the engine" is much more dramatic than it should
be.
Is there any way to tell how much is too much? Or am I
over-reacting to a
normal phenomenon?
Thanks.
Dennis
Moore
stealth@kiva.net
93 Stealth ES
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From
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Clutches (and I don't
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Dennis Moore wrote:
As I drop
>
engine RPMs down past a certain point, the whole car lurches.
Conversely,
> when I re-engage the throttle, the car lurches again.
I've tried varying
> the rate at which I change the throttle, but can't
seem to find a rate at
> which it doesn't happen.
Are you certain
this is a clutch problem? Have you checked motor and
transmission
mounts??
Darcy
For subscribe/unsubscribe
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From
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: MASC tuning and
testing :)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:43:14 -0700
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stealth-3000gt
If Mike's fuel system isn't up to delivering the deamnded
fuel then yes what
you Mikael and Joe describe (too low fuel pressure) could
be taking place.
My understanding is that Mike is using the HKS 90 gph
pump. Maybe the
filter or lines are plugged kinked etc.? I
suppose dirty injectors could do
it too.
Barry
>
-----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Aso8@aol.com
>
Sent: Monday, October 26, 1998 1:13 AM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Cc: Aso8@aol.com
> Subject: Re:
Team3S: MASC tuning and testing :)
>
>
> Not to be disagree, I
just feel my 15g's run fine with 550cc injectors. My
> EGT's are well
within safe temp ranges @ 1 bar on all except the
> most extreme
>
runs. When racing @23lbs boost & race gas, My VPC settings are in the
lean
> range and can be moved up substantially. It may be that my
cars
> set up is a
> bit different then Mike's. Larger piping and
enlarged fuel lines,
> fuel pump
> etc., that is giving me this
opinion. I can only gauge from
> driving my car. If
> Mike is
getting hi egt's with 550 inj I feel something is wrong
> with the
fuel
> delivery and may not be the injector size? Otherwise, I
should
> have the same
> problem?
> Arty 91
VR-4
>
> In a message dated 10/26/98 2:12:48 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
beking@home.com
> writes:
>
> << ere are a couple of
ways to defeat fuel cut, the MASC itself is one of
> them assuming
you are running rich when you hit fuel cut. At 99% IDC,
>
however, assuming a correct AFR, new injectors are indeed
>
indicated. Fuel
> pressure and flow is also something to check
first, of course, but I have
> maintained for a while that 550s
(560s in Mike's case) are too
> small for a
> 15G
application.
> >>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is
>
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE:
boost/lag/turbo theory
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:56:50 -0700
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> -----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Bob Fontana
>
Sent: Monday, October 26, 1998 5:57 AM
> To: 'Stealth List'
>
Subject: Team3S: RE: boost/lag/turbo theory
>
>
> Couple of
questions and comments.
>
> 1. Of everyone who has one or more EGTs,
has anyone located the
> probe in the
> header of manifold?
The turbo itself? The reason I asked is because I'm
> getting ready
to relocate mine from the 02 housing to the rear
> exhaust
manifold
> rather than the turbo. Although preferrable in location,
it
> doesn't look like
> the funnel of the turbo is anywhere near
big enough in diameter
> to allow the
> full insertion of the probe
(2.25"). Partial insertion might affect the
> reading since a
significant part of the probe would be outside of
> the
turbo.
> Anyone know this for sure?
What type of pyrometer is
it? Based on your dilemma I assume it is not one
of the short stubby
ones. If it is the long slender type with adjustable
depth via a collar
it will work fine if 1-1.5" of the probe is in the
exhaust stream.
I have that style on my car now and it is partially exposed
yet appears to
operate just fine. Also, I have used that style exclusively
on
motorcycles where the exhaust header diameter is smallish. In
those
applications only 3/4" of the probe was in the pipe. They
worked as
expected.
> 2. More on boost drop. A high VE motor
is the "fire hose" in the
> garden-hose/fire-hose example.
For a fire hose (freer-flowing motor) to
> maintain the same pressure as a
garden hose (stock motor) you
> need a bigger
> pump (turbo).
Take four identical 15G turbos. Eliminate the air box
> restrictions
on both cars and put two on a free-flowing motor and
> two on a
>
stock motor. Set the desired boost level to 30 PSI. Take
them
> both to 7000
> RPMs in 2nd gear. Which one gets there
first? Why? "More
> horsepower", you
>
say. Because the free-flowing motor is better able to
process
> the air "doled
> out" by the turbos. In
lower RPMs, say at 4000, the turbos can
> produce more
> air than
the engine can process. Both vehicles should see
> roughly the
same
> maximum boost level at that RPM. As RPMs increase, it's
like
> changing the
> garden hose to a fire hose. More RPMs
mean more gulps of air per
> second. More
> gulps is more
flow. If you have turbos capable of producing X
> CFM and a
motor
> capable of processing X+200 CFM at 7000 RPM, you will see a drop
in boost
> because the turbos will not be able to keep the intake side of
the motor
> pressurized. We need our cake and eat it too.
Sustained
> pressure AND good
> flow. Bigger turbos will allow
us to do that.
>
> 3. Air cleaners - Restrictions to the compressor
side (airbox)
> can prevent
> turbos from reaching their maximum
output and therefore boost is somewhat
> limited. Take the
restriction away and the turbo can pull more
> air through
> itself,
thereby increasing the amount of pressure in the intake manifold.
> 4.
Exhaust backpressure - the reason any turbine wheel spins is
> because of
the
> pressure differential on either side of the turbine. If you
were
> somehow able
> to pressurize your downpipe, the turbine wheel
would stop
> spinning when the
> pressure on the downstream side
equaled the pressure on the
> upstream side.
> That would be
an extreme case, but in real-life, pre-cats sitting just
> downstream of
the turbos will introduce enough backpressure to
> affect spool-up
>
and therefore, boost.
Both #3 and #4 make sense. I saw much quicker
spool-up after installing the
83mm airmeter. Although something is
odd. I was able to hold 20 psi to
redline in 2nd and 3rd and well into
the rpm range in 4th (didn't actually
hit redline there yet). Based on
feedback from others this appears to be an
unusual case. I suppose if
my engine were unhealthy in the first place #2
above might explain
it.
> -Bob
Regards,
Barry
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 26 08:08:19 1998
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<< If Mike's fuel system isn't up to delivering the
deamnded fuel then yes
what
you Mikael and Joe describe (too low fuel
pressure) could be taking place.>>
I'm going to find my old (never
used) fuel pressure gauge and she what she
says. But I seriusly doubt
that anything changed as far as the fuel pump,
lines, pressure regulator,
etc. is concerned because two weeks ago, before my
MASC, I had enough
fuel.. around low-mid 90% injector duty cycle before I
installed my
larger air-meter.
<< My understanding is that Mike is using the HKS
90 gph pump. Maybe the
filter or lines are plugged kinked etc.? I
suppose dirty injectors could do
it too.
>>
Yeah, the
HKS Nippendenso <sp?> pump. New filter and balanced injectors..
but
from my understanding, even if say the filter was a little clogged, how
would
the ECU know? I am not sure of a sensor that could tell and thus
increase the
injector duty cycle?
Mike Mahaffey - '94 Stealth tt Best
et: 11.6 Best mph: 120.7
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt
Mon Oct 26 08:10:36 1998
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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:10:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis
Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Clutches (and I don't mean "eggs")
In-Reply-To:
<363496CE.E4B0DC57@bc.sympatico.ca>
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No I hadn't - something that (relatively) simple hadn't
even occurred to
me. Guess I need to break down and buy the service
manual to find out
where they all are ;)
On Mon, 26 Oct 1998
wce@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:
[snip]
>
> Are you certain this is a
clutch problem? Have you checked motor and
> transmission mounts??
>
> Darcy
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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<< 1. Of everyone who has one or more EGTs, has
anyone located the probe in
the
header of manifold? The turbo
itself? The reason I asked is because I'm
getting ready to relocate
mine from the 02 housing to the rear exhaust
manifold
rather than the
turbo. Although preferrable in location, it doesn't look
like
the
funnel of the turbo is anywhere near big enough in diameter to allow the
full insertion of the probe (2.25"). Partial insertion might
affect the
reading since a significant part of the probe would be outside of
the turbo.
Anyone know this for sure?>>
Bob I have two
EGT's installed in my car. One from TRE that reads Farenhite,
and
another from HKS that reads Celcius. My TRE EGT is installed in the
front
header. I installed it right where the middle cylinder dumps into
the long
tube that goes to all of the cylinder/from the drivers side
cylinder. I cant
remember the length of my TRE EGT, but it was a VERY
tight fit. So if anyone
installs there, make sure they drill in the
middle of the exhuast pipe - not
off the the side by accident, and tread the
hole straight in relation to where
they drilled.
On a side note, most
people agree the rear cylinders run a little warmer, but
hell if I'm going to
pull the rear turbo and manifolds to install an EGT! :)
I just figured I'd
add a few degrees to my readings from my front EGT and I'd
be set.
Works great.
My HKS EGT is located in the front pre-cat right after where
it bolts to the
turbo. But the HKS EGT has a VERY short probe so it
could almost be installed
in a vaccume line..lol :).
<< 3. Air
cleaners - Restrictions to the compressor side (airbox) can prevent
turbos
from reaching their maximum output and therefore boost is somewhat
limited. Take the restriction away and the turbo can pull more air
through
itself, thereby increasing the amount of pressure in the intake
manifold.>>
This is another reason why I believe my high injector
duty cyclese (99%) are
not due to fuel pump/line/filter/pressure/diliver
problems, but due to the
fact I'm making lots of power with my HUGE
air-meter. When I first installed
the MASC, I used the head-unit to
monitor my current (stock air-meter)
settings so I had some kind of baseline
to initially tune to. I noticed my
EGT's were then lower for any given
boost pressure, the injectors duty cycles
were lower, and the mv's where
higher before I installed the significantly
larger air-meter.
<<
4. Exhaust backpressure - the reason any turbine wheel spins is because
of
the
pressure differential on either side of the turbine. If you
were somehow
able
to pressurize your downpipe, the turbine wheel would
stop spinning when the
pressure on the downstream side equaled the pressure
on the upstream side.
That would be an extreme case, but in
real-life, pre-cats sitting just
downstream of the turbos will introduce
enough backpressure to affect spool-
up
and therefore,
boost.>>
Exactly :). That's why there are alot of debates
concerning boost pressure
with certain turbos, because alot of people dont
understand if someone has
cats but the other person doesn't, they're
comparing apples to oranges!
Mike Mahaffey - '94 Stealth tt Best et:
11.6 Best mph: 120.7
ps - maybe everyone should include a detailed
list of their mods in their
signature, that way we'd all be on the same
wavelenght when debating certain
mods! And if anyone wants to keep
things secret, ban them from the list. Why
should we spend time to help
them, when they wont do the same..
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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From: Rich <rleroy@pacifier.com>
Organization:
...
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Who's the Target
Audience?
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Dennis:
Well, I'm an R/T owner, and I believe Bob
is as well (or an SL). I,
personally, have been following the thread(s)
to glean as much as
possible from the folks on the list. I have a few
A/F, timing and IDC
questions that I was *going* to ask, but for now, I'm
content to just
lurk. They may get answered without having to
ask.
Rich
Emerald Green 94 R/T
Dennis Moore wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Just wondering: is there anyone else on this
list who *doesn't* own a
> turbo S/3K?
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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Subject: Re:
Team3S: MASC tuning and testing :)
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OK, let me back-up for a second and recap what I think is
happening:
Before the MASC you had 90% injector duty cycle.
After
MASC you have 99% IDC. Hmm... You are definitely sucking
more
air. The problem still lies before you installed the MASC. I
think you
already had low fuel flow rates before the MASC was installed, but
due
to the fact that the factory mass-air sensor is very small, the
turbos
weren't able to pull as much air into your engine as they can now
with
the MASC installed. Hence your IDC went from 90% to 99%, and
this
should happen if you're pulling roughly 10% more air. In your case
you
might be pulling even more than just a 10% increase in air so
the
injectors can't keep up with your new set-up.
But remember
that the injectors are not at fault here. It might be that
the fuel
system was already hindered. The best way to find out is to
measure
your fuel pressure near the injector fuel rail. And then
compare to
someone else's who has the same fuel pump as you.
LotoBoost@aol.com
wrote:
><SNIP>
> ... but
> from my understanding, even
if say the filter was a little clogged, how would
> the ECU know? I
am not sure of a sensor that could tell and thus increase the
> injector
duty cycle?
>
There aren't any sensors at WOT. The injector
duty cycle is being
changed by increasing the fuel curves on the MASC in
order to retain
safe EGTs.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 26 08:58:10 1998
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In a message dated 10/26/98 8:37:54 AM Eastern Standard
Time, stealth@kiva.net
writes:
<< Just wondering: is there
anyone else on this list who *doesn't* own a
turbo S/3K?
>>
Don't worry Dennis, I'm right behind ya with my '95 Base
GT...... but even
though I don't own a turbo, I consider this list the first
place to turn to
for ANY mechanical advice whatsoever.
Gregg
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 26 08:58:43 1998
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Subject: Team3S: Injector Duty Cycles
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Talking about IDC's, does anyone else out there monitor
their injector duty?
It would be neat to know:
1. what turbos/injctors
someone has
2. what exhuast set-up
3. what IDC at a given boost
pressure
I wouldn't be shocked if many of us are running high 80%'s and
low 90%'s with
550/560's and 15G's..
Thanks,
Mike Mahaffey - '94
Stealth tt Best et: 11.6 Best mph: 120.7
1. 15G turbos/RC
Eng. 560cc injectors
2. Custom 3" downpipe/exhaust with pre-cats
gutted, main cat gone
3. 99% injector duty cycle at 18psi
My mods:
HKS EVC 3, HKS fuel pump, TRE MASC, full 3" exhaust, no
cats, TEC 15G's, one
HKS intercooler/one stock intercooler - damn curb..lol!,
RC 560cc injectors,
spark plug wires, Blitz BOV, Apex AFC, cleaned heads,
Centerforce DF clutch
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 26 09:01:15 1998
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From: "Lloyd Wihl"
<Lloyd.Wihl@d25tss.cae.ca>
Organization: CAE Electronics Ltd.
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:56:25
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Subject: Team3S: Three
Questions
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Nice list! It's refreshing to see so much expertise
concentrated here!
I have three questions about my 93 TT:
1. The
clutch, pressure plate and throwout bearing were replaced
with stock ones
10,000 miles ago. Recently I have felt a pulsation in
the pedal while
engaging the clutch. There is no accompanying
vibration in the car. Also,
the pulsation is temperature-related: it
doesn't occur at all at ambient
temperatures below 70 deg F, and is
worst after driving then parking for an
hour on a warm day. After
several shifts, it disappears. Any ideas what is
causing it?
2. On cool mornings (around 35 deg F) my engine
hesitates until it
warms up. I have tested the ambient temperature sensor,
and it is
fine. My fuel filter and plugs are relatively new. I use 94 octane
fuel.
Would replacing the ignition wires help? Does the throttle body need
to be cleaned?
3. My low coolant light illuminates after driving on
the highway for a
few hours. (I can drive indefinitely in the city without
losing coolant.)
I know this is a common problem on the 3S, but has anyone
actually
pinpointed where the coolant escapes from? Pressure tests haven't
shown anything. I am still under warranty, and would like to get the
faulty components replaced.
Lloyd Wihl
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Oct 26 09:52:08 1998
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From: Chris Winkley
<cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To:
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: VR4 Advice
please
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 09:52:45 -0800
Organization: ADP Dealer
Services
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Ron...
1. Sounds like air in the brake lines. I
can't imagine a car (any car) with properly functioning brakes that
allows
the pedal to hit the floor.
2. My VR4 had fossil oil in it for the first 28K
miles. I changed to synthetic (Castrol 5-50w) and have not
experienced any
leaks (of any sort) in the last eighteen months.
Price sounds reasonable
to me (at least if they solve the brake problem). Good luck!!!
Looking
forward...Chris
"Friends don't let friends ride with
me"
1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4
-----Original
Message-----
From: Ron-a-roid [SMTP:rtetetet@email.msn.com]
Sent:
Saturday, October 24, 1998 12:22 PM
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Re: VR4 Advice
please
<snip>
Two things concern me;
1. The brakes are spongy, I
can pin the pedal to the floor. They stop good
but not as good as my SL as
far as raw stopping power. Probably because the
system is spongy. Has not had
brake line recall done. Anti lock light blinks
3 times at start up, not a
solid 4 - 6 second light like my 93 SL.
2. The car has had Valvoline
10-30w in it all the changes he had receipts
for from the dealer. I would
have preferred to see Mobil1 or a synthetic and
would want to change to
synthetic after purchase. I have read that changing
from petroleum to
synthetic can induce seal shrinkage and possible leaks
later on. Anybody else
heard of this and have knowledge of it?
<more snip>
Ron
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 26 10:20:01 1998
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Chris, the 5W-50 has a tendency to cause lifter ticking.
At least it does in
my car.
Maybe in real hot weather you got by - but in
winter, listen carefully.
Good seeing you.
Arty 91 VR-4
In a
message dated 10/26/98 9:53:15 AM Pacific Standard
Time,
cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com writes:
SNIP
<< I changed
to synthetic (Castrol 5-50w) and have not >>
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 26 10:40:44 1998
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Subject: Team3S: Are the exhaust
manifolds a restriction ??
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Today I was at the
shop and inspected the rebuild. I then checked the manifolds
with the fitting
of the new turbos and was pretty surprised as they don't look
like a
restriction at all. I expected a heavy cast manifold but the thing was
not
that big nor bad designed (outside). Of course there's always a way to
make
things better but I'd like to ask people who already exchanged
the
manifold/headers what differences they found.
For the EGT sensor,
the best would be that it will be installed infront the
turbo flange. Are
there any probes available with different lenghts ?
PS: The small pic
shows the front manifold/headers still attached to the
front
head.
Cheers,
Roger
-----------------------
Roger
Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale
Rosso)
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 26 10:43:48 1998
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In a message dated 10/26/98 12:02:26 PM Eastern Standard
Time,
Lloyd.Wihl@d25tss.cae.ca writes:
<<
1. The clutch,
pressure plate and throwout bearing were replaced
with stock ones 10,000
miles ago. Recently I have felt a pulsation in
the pedal while engaging the
clutch. There is no accompanying
vibration in the car. Also, the pulsation
is temperature-related: it
doesn't occur at all at ambient temperatures
below 70 deg F, and is
worst after driving then parking for an hour on a
warm day. After
several shifts, it disappears. Any ideas what is causing
it? >>
Hi Lloyd, it's good to see your name
again. :)
Sounds like you're experiencing the same problem as I did
when I got my clutch
first replaced. I'm sorry to say that the problem
has been undiagnosed from 2
different dealerships. They both claim it's
fine, and checked the hydrolics
of the clutch for air pockets/bubbles,
etc...but have found nothing. All I
wanted was for one of them to say
"hey yeah - I see what you mean", but I have
yet to find a
dealership that would recognize the problem. I still have it to
this
day (about a year since the clutch install).
The clutch seems to
hold up fine, however - so as far as I know...it's not
hurting the
performance of it. I kind of describe it as a "crunchy"
or
"gritty" feeling when I press the clutch in. Very
wierd. If you ever get it
diagnosed and fixed, i'd be very anxious to
hear what they found!
Gregg
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Oct 26 11:08:49 1998
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From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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Subject: Team3S: Identification of the
EU turbos
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I've got a close-up picture of the stock EURO turbos (even
the rear one). Can
someone who's able to identify them please rise his hands
that I can send the
picture personally ? I'd like to be sure that our turbos
are the same as all
others (nobody can say this to me) or to find out any
difference.
Thanks in
advance,
Roger
-----------------------
Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Are the exhaust
manifolds a restriction ??
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I've been told that 3/10's of a second can be gained in
the 1/4 with better
exhaust manifold. I have no proof but I'm a believer.
(This is based on my
setup)
Arty 91 Vr-4
In a message dated
10/26/98 10:43:23 AM Pacific Standard Time,
robby@swissonline.ch
writes:
<< ubj: Team3S: Are the exhaust manifolds a restriction
??
Date: 10/26/98 10:43:23 AM Pacific Standard Time
From:
robby@swissonline.ch (R.G.)
Sender:
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Reply-to:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
(Stealth/3000GT List)
File: EXMANI1.jpg (35993 bytes)
DL Time
(44000 bps): < 1 minute
Today I was at the shop and inspected the
rebuild. I then checked the
manifolds
with the fitting of the new turbos
and was pretty surprised as they don't
look
like a restriction at all. I
expected a heavy cast manifold but the thing was
not that big nor bad
designed (outside). Of course there's always a way to
make
things better
but I'd like to ask people who already exchanged the
manifold/headers what
differences they found.
For the EGT sensor, the best would be that it
will be installed infront the
turbo flange. Are there any probes available
with different lenghts ?
>>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Oct 26 11:40:14 1998
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From:
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To: "Team3S"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Found online- sound
of a Stealth RT/TT revving...
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 11:40:01
-0800
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http://www.specialty1auto.com/Sounds/stealth.wav
Huge
(900k file) but pretty impressive...
F
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info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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From:
"GT ALLEY" <thegtalley@email.msn.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Are the exhaust
manifolds a restriction ??
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:48:05
-0800
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Horrible design esspecially on the front
turbo, if you take a good look, two
of the pipes actually face the opposite
way of the one pipe. Hence the
exhaust is fighing to get out...The rear is
not all that horrible, but still
not all that great of a
design..
Brian@
The GT ALLEY
3/S Performance
Central
-----Original Message-----
From: R.G.
<robby@swissonline.ch>
To: Stealth/3000GT List
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 10:43
AM
Subject: Team3S: Are the exhaust manifolds a restriction
??
>Today I was at the shop and inspected the rebuild. I then
checked the
manifolds
>with the fitting of the new turbos and was
pretty surprised as they don't
look
>like a restriction at all. I
expected a heavy cast manifold but the thing
was
>not that big nor bad
designed (outside). Of course there's always a way to
make
>things
better but I'd like to ask people who already exchanged
the
>manifold/headers what differences they found.
>
>For the
EGT sensor, the best would be that it will be installed infront the
>turbo
flange. Are there any probes available with different lenghts
?
>
>PS: The small pic shows the front manifold/headers still
attached to
the
front
>head.
>
>Cheers,
>Roger
>
>-----------------------
>Roger
Gerl, Switzerland
>93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 26 15:16:45 1998
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> Horrible design esspecially on the front turbo, if
you take a good look, two
> of the pipes actually face the opposite way of
the one pipe. Hence the
> exhaust is fighing to get out.
Ahh, I see
the point :) There is definitively an improvement possible
!
Thanks,
Roger
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 26 16:11:30 1998
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From: "GT ALLEY"
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To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification of
the EU turbos
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 16:14:37 -0800
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Roger send me the pic. I will tell you what it is. I will
bet that it is a
13G. All of my overseas customers have 13G's
stock.
Brian@
The GT ALLEY
3/S Performance Central
-----Original
Message-----
From: R.G. <robby@swissonline.ch>
To: Stealth/3000GT
List <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Monday, October 26, 1998
11:12 AM
Subject: Team3S: Identification of the EU turbos
>I've
got a close-up picture of the stock EURO turbos (even the rear
one).
Can
>someone who's able to identify them please rise his hands
that I can send
the
>picture personally ? I'd like to be sure that our
turbos are the same as
all
>others (nobody can say this to me) or to
find out any difference.
>
>Thanks in
advance,
>Roger
>
>-----------------------
>Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
>93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
>For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 26 17:36:56 1998
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
From: Jay Steinberg
<jay@wco.com>
Subject: Team3S: Two new tires on right side
only?
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I've got 4 Eagle F1s with about 7500
miles on them on my VR4. The two on
the right side have nails in them and
will be replaced under the hazard
warranty. I expect they'll want to keep the
new ones on that side. Does
that make sense to you? Should I violate the
rotation principle and put one
new one on each side? If so, any thoughts on
how I should do it; i.e., both
news on rear or news on opposing corners? I
appreciate your help and advice.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt
Mon Oct 26 18:54:50 1998
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From: Brad Bedell
<bbedell@texas.net>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Are the exhaust
manifolds a restriction ??
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 20:53:31
-0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
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=_NextPart_000_01BE0122.B157F500"
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Arty,
I have a set of IMP headers on my
car. =20
I have the same dilemma as you. I changed all
the parts at once, so =
who is to say that they help or don't help. I
do know for sure that I =
have less lag with the 15g's than I did with stock
& 13g turbos. =20
Did they help? Who knows, but the car does run nice
for a car with stock =
exhaust.
=20
> Brad
>=20
> Check
out my home page: http://lonestar.texas.net/~bbedell
>
E-Mail: bbedell@texas.net ICQ# 3612682
-----Original
Message-----
From: Aso8@aol.com [SMTP:Aso8@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, October
26, 1998 1:18 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Cc:
Aso8@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Are the exhaust manifolds a restriction
??
I've been told that 3/10's of a second can be gained in the 1/4 with
=
better
exhaust manifold. I have no proof but I'm a believer. (This is
based on =
my
setup)
Arty 91 Vr-4
In a message dated 10/26/98
10:43:23 AM Pacific Standard Time,
robby@swissonline.ch
writes:
<< ubj: Team3S: Are the exhaust manifolds a restriction
??
Date: 10/26/98 10:43:23 AM Pacific Standard Time
From:
robby@swissonline.ch (R.G.)
Sender:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Reply-to:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
(Stealth/3000GT List)
=20
File: EXMANI1.jpg (35993 bytes)
DL Time
(44000 bps): < 1 minute
=20
Today I was at the shop and inspected the
rebuild. I then checked the
manifolds
with the fitting of the new turbos
and was pretty surprised as they =
don't
look
like a restriction at
all. I expected a heavy cast manifold but the =
thing was
not that big nor
bad designed (outside). Of course there's always a way =
to
make
things
better but I'd like to ask people who already exchanged the
manifold/headers
what differences they found.
=20
For the EGT sensor, the best would be
that it will be installed infront =
the
turbo flange. Are there any probes
available with different lenghts ?
>>
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
=
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
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From
owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Oct 26 19:17:49 1998
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Message-ID: <00a201be0158$7ca21760$4deb86cd@BobForrest>
From:
"Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Two new tires on
right side only?
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 19:09:29 -0800
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Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
-----Original Message-----From: Jay
Steinberg <jay@wco.com>
|I've got 4 Eagle F1s with about
7500 miles on them on my VR4. The two
on
|the right side have nails in
them and will be replaced under the hazard
|warranty. I expect they'll want
to keep the new ones on that side. Does
|that make sense to you? Should I
violate the rotation principle and put
one
|new one on each side? If so,
any thoughts on how I should do it; i.e.,
both
|news on rear or news on
opposing corners? I appreciate your help and
advice.
Run the new
ones on the front until 7500 miles, then assume a normal
rotation
schedule. Fronts wear faster than rears. You'll have
four
completely different levels of wear if you keep the 'old' on one
side
and the 'new' on the other. If they want to keep the old ones on
the
side, it's only out of laziness, not
correctness...
Forrest
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Oct 26 19:38:37 1998
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Message-ID:
<00b901be015b$646142e0$4deb86cd@BobForrest>
From: "Bob
Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: "Team3S"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Target
Audience? 'Archives' page is up...
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 19:39:16
-0800
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Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
-----Original Message-----From: Dennis
Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
|Just wondering: is there anyone else on
this list who *doesn't* own a
|turbo S/3K? 90% of the discussion
recently has been about issues that
|don't really relate to my car, so I've
been hitting the delete key a
lot.
|(I'll be following up with a couple
more clutch questions later.)
Even though my Stealth is a NT, I still
read many of the posts with
interest, because when I buy my SECOND Stealth
(or 3k) it will be a
turbo. And I understand much of what the turbo
guys go through, having
owned a troublesome '84 Turbo Carrera...
I
would venture a guess that anything technical or informative that
pertains to
any of the S/3k models will find it's way here. Hopefully,
if it's a
thread about fuzzy dice or other silliness it will find its
way to another
list. ...and that folks will direct the jokes to
rec.humor.funny
. At some point we'll probably have some kind of FAQ
about all kinds of
topics to keep the clutter level as low as it's been
so far, rather than read
through the same questions repeatedly. A
central location for various
info, like on one of the larger S/3k sites
that are already developed, seems
to make the most sense.
FYI - Archives: A post about brakes may not
interest you this month,
but 6 months from now it might seem REALLY
important. If anyone needs
to refer to past posts, click the ARCHIVE
link at the bottom of our
temporary web page to access the
digests.
One more note: The seven of us who started this list
envisioned it as a
forum where we could exchange useful information about
Stealths and
3000GTs. We hoped it could be a helpful, friendly place,
but I don't
think any of us expected to assemble so many "good
guys" in one spot.
It appears that "Team3S" is an appropriate
name...
Best to all,
Forrest
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 26 19:57:07 1998
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Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 19:55:11
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To:
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Are the exhaust manifolds
a restriction ??
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<01BE0122.B157F500@tcnet10-58.austin.texas.net>
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Brad, Arty;
What's a set of IMP's run? And do you
think slapping them on when you had stock turbos would have made a
difference?
> Arty,
>
> I have a set of IMP headers on my
car.
>
> I have the same dilemma as you. I changed all
the parts at once, so who is to say that they help or don't help. I do
know for sure that I have less lag with the 15g's than I did with stock &
13g turbos.
>
> Did they help? Who knows, but the car does run nice
for a car with stock exhaust.
>
> > Brad
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 26 19:58:11 1998
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From:
"Ron-a-roid" <rtetetet@email.msn.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Clutches (and I
don't mean "eggs")
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 23:01:37
-0500
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This sounds more like gear lash or drive line snatch.
(don't go there guys)
It could be u-joints, CV joints or the differentials.
On the less costly and
more likely side, have you checked your motor mounts
to see if the whole
engine and drive, trainee /transfer case, is moving. Even
front drive only
will suffer a lot of slap or thud with a broken motor mount.
It will usually
be the front one, or rear, the one that keeps the engine /
drive torque from
spinning the whole engine around. remember, this is a
transverse mounted
engine / drive train and loading is different from the old
rear drive where
the system is mounted
longitudinally.
Ron-a-rid
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis
Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
To: 'Stealth List'
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 8:48
AM
Subject: Team3S: Clutches (and I don't mean
"eggs")
>OK, here's a follow up to my earlier question
about predicting the end of
>your clutch's life. Let's say I'm
driving around town in 3rd gear, 3-4000
>RPM. As I vary my throttle
position the car speed responds in a very
>linear fashion (as it should) -
MOST of the throttle travel. As I drop
>engine RPMs down past a
certain point, the whole car lurches. Conversely,
>when I re-engage
the throttle, the car lurches again. I've tried varying
>the rate at
which I change the throttle, but can't seem to find a rate at
>which it
doesn't happen.
>
>It seems to me that the transition from the
"engine driving the wheels" to
>the "wheels driving the
engine" is much more dramatic than it should be.
>
>Is there
any way to tell how much is too much? Or am I over-reacting to
a
>normal phenomenon?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Dennis
Moore
>stealth@kiva.net
>93 Stealth ES
>
>For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 26 20:03:32 1998
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From:
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To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Who's the Target
Audience?
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 23:06:58 -0500
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Ron-a-roid, 93SL NA, you are not alone ... for now .. been
test driving
lately ...
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis
Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
To: 'Stealth List'
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 8:37
AM
Subject: Team3S: Who's the Target Audience?
>Hi
all,
>
>Just wondering: is there anyone else on this list who
*doesn't* own a
>turbo S/3K? 90% of the discussion recently has been
about issues that
>don't really relate to my car, so I've been hitting the
delete key a lot.
>(I'll be following up with a couple more clutch
questions later.)
>
>Dennis
Moore
>stealth@kiva.net
>
>What's the difference between a
Mechanical Engineer and a Civil Engineer?
>Mechanical Engineers build
Weapons, Civil Engineers build
Targets!
>
>*similarly*
>
>There are two kinds of
ocean-going vessels in this world:
> submarines and
targets!
>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 26 20:22:07 1998
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From: Brad Bedell
<bbedell@texas.net>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Are the exhaust
manifolds a restriction ??
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:20:21
-0600
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I am not sure what the price is now. Last I heard around
1,000 (US =
Dollars)
No, I do not feel they are worth your time for
stock turbos. Too much =
of a PITA to install just to put stock turbos
back on.
> Brad
>=20
> Check out my home
page: http://lonestar.texas.net/~bbedell
> E-Mail:
bbedell@texas.net ICQ# 3612682
-----Original
Message-----
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca [SMTP:wce@bc.sympatico.ca]
Sent:
Monday, October 26, 1998 9:55 PM
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Are the exhaust manifolds
a restriction ??
Brad, Arty;
What's a set of IMP's run? And do you
think slapping them on when you =
had stock turbos would have made a
difference?
> Arty,
>
> I have a set of IMP headers on my
car.
>
> I have the same dilemma as you. I changed all
the parts at once, so =
who is to say that they help or don't help. I
do know for sure that I =
have less lag with the 15g's than I did with stock
& 13g turbos.
>
> Did they help? Who knows, but the car does run
nice for a car with =
stock exhaust.
>
> >
Brad
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
=
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
------
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From
owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Oct 26 20:24:30 1998
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Who's the Target
Audience?
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 21:23:15 -0700
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For those of you with NA engines, quite a bit of the
non-turbo specific
discussions will still apply.
If any of you get to
or are at the point of radically modifying your NA
engines through higher
compression, different cams, porting etc., you'll
more than likely run into
similar issues surrounding fuel delivery
(injectors, pump), fuel control
(MASC, AFC, VPC) and the pesky ECU
limitations and safety
features.
EGT and O2 readings for example are useful tools for tuning
virtually any
engine. Exhaust principles are similar although forced
induction presents
slightly difdfferent requirements.
Anyway,
hopefully the NA owners won't be
forgotten.
Regards,
Barry
'94 VR4
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 26 20:42:26 1998
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From:
"Palamara, Peter" <pala@gwl.com>
To:
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Who's the Target
Audience?
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 21:40:48 -0700
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Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
In the near future for you N/A guys if
anyone is interested I will have
a complete turbo system available around in
Jan to Feb. This will
include turbo manifolds,oil and water lines, stock
inter cooler piping,
modified turbos using the ihi compressor's ran 12.79 at
114 here at
bandamere's 6850ft, stock intake plenum, and precat exhaust
housings
down to where it bolts up to the catalatic converter. So almost
a
complete system for you N/A guys you just need a
ignition
computer,intercooler cores, a y-pipe, and larger injectors and I'm
not
sure a throttle body and boost controller??? So if anyone wants to
pass
this info on your more than welcome to I just want to see if
someone
wants the whole shebang if not I'll just sell the turbos and misc.
stuff
if people want it. The car is being torn down in stages as of next
week
but depending on how busy I am and time permits is how long it will
take
for the complete system to be out oh and good OLE Colorado
weather.
Pete Palamara
92 3000vr-4(GTO)
500 hp of
Fun
(303)689-4733
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Barry
E. King [SMTP:beking@home.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 26, 1998 9:23
PM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Who's
the Target Audience?
>
> For those of you with NA engines, quite a
bit of the non-turbo
> specific
> discussions will still
apply.
>
> If any of you get to or are at the point of radically
modifying your
> NA
> engines through higher compression, different
cams, porting etc.,
> you'll
> more than likely run into similar
issues surrounding fuel delivery
> (injectors, pump), fuel control (MASC,
AFC, VPC) and the pesky ECU
> limitations and safety features.
>
> EGT and O2 readings for example are useful tools for tuning
virtually
> any
> engine. Exhaust principles are similar
although forced induction
> presents
> slightly difdfferent
requirements.
>
> Anyway, hopefully the NA owners won't be
forgotten.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Barry
> '94
VR4
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Oct 26 21:01:53 1998
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From: "Dennis
Moore" <stealth@kiva.net>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Who's the Target
Audience?
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 00:01:43 -0500
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Ooh, could be fun trying to keep the
wheels in contact with the ground!
Hmm, 300+ horses into front wheel
drive...
BTW, thanks for everyone's reassurances that this isn't a
turbo-only group.
(Not a real problem if it had been...)
Dennis
Moore
stealth@kiva.net
93 Stealth ES
-----Original
Message-----
From: Palamara, Peter <pala@gwl.com>
To:
'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com' <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date:
Monday, October 26, 1998 11:42 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Who's the Target
Audience?
>In the near future for you N/A guys if anyone is
interested I will have
>a complete turbo system available around in Jan to
Feb. This will
[snip]
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 26 21:48:38 1998
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From:
"Ron-a-roid" <rtetetet@email.msn.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: VR4 Advice
please
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 00:52:05 -0500
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>1. Sounds like air in the brake lines. I can't imagine
a car (any car) with
properly functioning brakes that
>allows the pedal
to hit the floor.
Well this is my second Mits. (93SL I have) and it, my
wife's car and my
Eclipse ALL did this. Plus the VR4 I'm looking at. I don't
have much faith
in their brake systems, as I am seeing big dollar signs on my
SL to fix the
ABS problem.
>2. My VR4 had fossil oil in it for the
first 28K miles. I changed to
synthetic (Castrol 5-50w) and have
not
>experienced any leaks (of any sort) in the last eighteen
months.
Well, you can't believe everything Smokey Unick says I Guess, but
careful is
better.
>Price sounds reasonable to me (at least if they
solve the brake problem).
Good luck!!!
Also found a cream puff, 96
white 3000 Miles, yes 3K not 30K. Don't know if
I can go $30K
Anybody
seen the chrome pitting or bubble on the 18" chromies before. Looks
like
salt to me.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon
Oct 26 23:35:12 1998
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From:
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To:
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Subject: RE: Team3S: Are the exhaust
manifolds a restriction ??
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 08:34:38
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stealth-3000gt
-----Original message-----
From: Brad Bedell
<bbedell@texas.net>
I have a set of IMP headers on my car.
Can you please tell us more about your headers.
How much did
they cost? Quality? Did they fit without problems?
Also does anyone know
if there are some "off road pipe" available for the precats ?? (Cost
and brand)
/Mikael http://www.bahnhof.se/~vr4
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue
Oct 27 00:12:50 1998
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Organization:
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> Also does anyone know if there are some "off
road pipe" available for the
> precats ?? (Cost and brand)
YES
! You guys remember that David Buschur got a VR4 and started to modify it
(I
guess he's not on the list). The last time I talked to him he got a
front
replacement pipe done and just waited for the rear one. He told me a
price
around $150 each. I'll ask him and let you
know.
Cheers,
Roger
-----------------------
Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Oct 27 01:46:48 1998
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From: Brad Bedell
<bbedell@texas.net>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Link check.
Date:
Tue, 27 Oct 1998 03:45:13 -0600
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------
=_NextPart_000_01BE015C.34CCAB40
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Hey
everyone, I am updating my web page & my links.
If anyone gets bored,
feel free to check out my page and find and dead/ mistyped links that I may
have.
Also, if you have a page you want added, or feel is important, let
me know I will add it.
> Brad
>
> Check out my home
page: http://lonestar.texas.net/~bbedell
> E-Mail:
bbedell@texas.net ICQ# 3612682
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2u082+FoAHTdoXBQADoAL94hd95jLgAAZgBsAGEAc2Pdgd7QbgBl3aHeMH7sAGLgQd/QZN/B3xDf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------
=_NextPart_000_01BE015C.34CCAB40--
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From
owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Oct 27 03:40:05 1998
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I would not consider headers unless I was going to 15g's
or beyond. Bigger
advantages are available with less money & effort. With
stock turbos this is a
waste of money.
Arty 91 VR-4
In a message
dated 10/27/98 3:59:22 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
wce@bc.sympatico.ca
writes:
<< ubj: Re: Team3S: Are the exhaust
manifolds a restriction ??
Date: 10/27/98 3:59:22 AM !!!First
Boot!!!
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
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Brad, Arty;
What's a set of IMP's
run? And do you think slapping them on when you had
stock turbos would have
made a difference?
>>
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page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Oct 27 04:28:09 1998
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From: Bob Fontana
<bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To:
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Are the exhaust
manifolds a restriction ??
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 07:27:41
-0500
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Hi,
Unfortunately, Dave couldn't
fabricate the rear one because of its design. It
would require the use
of some equipment that he doesn't have. The front one is
do-able.
-Bob
> YES ! You guys remember that David Buschur
got a VR4 and started to modify it
> (I
> guess he's not on the
list). The last time I talked to him he got a front
> replacement pipe
done and just waited for the rear one. He told me a price
> around $150
each. I'll ask him and let you know.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Oct 27 07:20:39 1998
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From: "Todd D
Shelton" <tds@brightok.net>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Who's the Target
Audience?
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:24:06 -0600
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Also my engine builder recently informed
me that
he may be offering a purpose built supercharger package
for the NA
S/3K's from Paxton in the near future. Talks
are currently
underway.
-
tds
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: Palamara, Peter
<pala@gwl.com>
To: 'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Monday,
October 26, 1998 10:42 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Who's the
Target Audience?
In the near future for you N/A
guys if anyone is interested I will have
a complete turbo
system available around in Jan to Feb. This will
include
turbo manifolds,oil and water lines, stock inter cooler
piping
...
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue
Oct 27 07:51:13 1998
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Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 07:47:35
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Thanks Brad;
I guess it's one of those prices
that's inflated for the name eh! 1000 installed would be more reasonable if it
included instalation! Will consider headers now only IF I upgrade
turbos...you're right, I just
had an imaginative look at the work likely
involved, and PITA is apt and likely understated.
Darc
Brad Bedell
wrote:
> I am not sure what the price is now. Last I heard around
1,000 (US Dollars)
>
> No, I do not feel they are worth your time
for stock turbos. Too much of a PITA to install just to put stock turbos
back on.
>
> > Brad
> >
> > Check out my home
page: http://lonestar.texas.net/~bbedell
> > E-Mail:
bbedell@texas.net ICQ# 3612682
>
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
[SMTP:wce@bc.sympatico.ca]
> Sent: Monday, October 26, 1998
9:55 PM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Are the exhaust
manifolds a restriction ??
>
> Brad, Arty;
>
> What's a
set of IMP's run? And do you think slapping them on when you had stock turbos
would have made a difference?
>
> > Arty,
> >
>
> I have a set of IMP headers on my car.
> >
> > I have the
same dilemma as you. I changed all the parts at once, so who is to
say that they help or don't help. I do know for sure that I have less lag
with the 15g's than I did with stock & 13g turbos.
> >
> >
Did they help? Who knows, but the car does run nice for a car with stock
exhaust.
> >
> > > Brad
>
> For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Part 1.2 Type:
application/ms-tnef
>
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue
Oct 27 09:23:58 1998
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Date:
Tue, 27 Oct 1998 18:28:09 +0100
From: Jim Matthews
<matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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GT ALLEY wrote:
>
> Roger send me the pic. I
will tell you what it is. I will bet that it is a
> 13G. All of my
overseas customers have 13G's stock.
Well, that would explain why Roger's
turbos spool up slower
than mine but can hold 1.0 bar to redline. But I
find it very
interesting that Roger and I are seeing the exact same
G-Tech
times when he has (in addition to my mods) DP, exhaust, AFC,
a
boost controller that holds 1.0 bar to redline, and 13G turbos,
not to
mention that he is a better driver than I. I must say
that I am very
skeptical... If it is true, then I'm in no hurry
to run out and blow
money on all of those mods.
-Jim
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden,
Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps
ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
*** 3000GT-Stealth
International (3Si) Member #0030
***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94
Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension,
Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84%
BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark
plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided
brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph
G-Tech
Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Oct 27 09:31:51 1998
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Identification of
the EU turbos
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:32:51 -0700
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If the European cars indeed have 13Gs then it in all
likliehood is NOT the
DSBC that is responsible for holding decent boost to
redline.
The only person in the US with whom I have spoken who has the
DSBC and stock
turbos does not report what Roger has reported. That is,
he is not able to
maintain 15 PSI to redline.
This makes sense since a
boost controller cannot oversome the inherent
design of a turbocharger.
A 9B is simply unable to provide enough air to
maintain 15 PSI on the
6G72.
Regards,
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Jim Matthews
>
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 10:28 AM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification of
the EU turbos
>
>
> GT ALLEY wrote:
> >
> >
Roger send me the pic. I will tell you what it is. I will bet
> that it is
a
> > 13G. All of my overseas customers have 13G's
stock.
>
> Well, that would explain why Roger's turbos spool up
slower
> than mine but can hold 1.0 bar to redline. But I find it
very
> interesting that Roger and I are seeing the exact same
G-Tech
> times when he has (in addition to my mods) DP, exhaust,
AFC,
> a boost controller that holds 1.0 bar to redline, and 13G
turbos,
> not to mention that he is a better driver than I. I must
say
> that I am very skeptical... If it is true, then I'm in no
hurry
> to run out and blow money on all of those mods.
>
>
-Jim
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue
Oct 27 10:29:28 1998
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From: Jim Matthews
<matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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Subject: Re:
Team3S: flow, leaning out
References:
<3632E564.14DD64B@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
<199810251323.FAA10139@aimnet.com>
<3633489F.F1FFCFD3@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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If Roger's and Mikael's Euro-spec VR-4s indeed have 13G
turbos,
which would explain how they can maintain 1.0 bar at redline,
does
that not suggest that their injectors and ECU are also
different to support a
more appropriate fuel map?
It also appears as if my theory that the
SAVC-R is responsible
for reducing boost at high IDC levels is probably
incorrect.
The drop in pressure is more likely a result of the
inadequate
flow characteristics of the stock U.S.-model 9B turbos.
I
was under the impression that the turbos were identical.
We will get
to the bottom of this eventually! :-)
-Jim
--
Matthews -
Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps
ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
*** 3000GT-Stealth
International (3Si) Member #0030
***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94
Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension,
Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84%
BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark
plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided
brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph
G-Tech
Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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Subject: Re:
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References:
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<36321B49.C2EE86B6@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
<3632F3D5.87A822F7@swissonline.ch>
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Jim Matthews wrote:
>
> R.G. wrote:
>
>
> > Jim wrote :
> > > When my AVC-R sees the IDC get
above 90%, it starts blinking, and this
> > > is when the boost
level starts decreasing.
> >
> > > "The display will
begin to flash if the injectors reach
> > > over 98% capacity."
(so what?)
> >
> > So, what does it in reality ?? Does your
display start blinking at 90% or like
> > Apexi says at 98% ?? IMHO,
98% is way too high for a safety feature ! Maybe it's
> > programmable
or an "undocumented feature" ;-)
Looks like the manual is
correct. Today I saw 94% IDC with
no blinking and no reduction in boost
pressure levels.
-Jim
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden,
Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps
ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
*** 3000GT-Stealth
International (3Si) Member #0030
***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94
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From
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From:
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?= <vr4@bahnhof.se>
To:
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
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Subject: RE: Team3S: Identification of
the EU turbos
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 19:37:46 +0100
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Regarding to the Mitsubishi importer in Sweden there is
NO difference =
between the US turbo and Euro turbo. My car is imported from
US and if =
there had been any difference then I have had to change the
turbos to =
make it legal in Sweden. AND my car also holds 15psi all the way
upp to =
redline. Let's face it! Blitz rules ;)
Take
care
Mikael
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Matthews
[SMTP:matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de]
Well, that would explain why Roger's
turbos spool up slower
than mine but can hold 1.0 bar to redline. But I
find it very
interesting that Roger and I are seeing the exact same
G-Tech
times when he has (in addition to my mods) DP, exhaust, AFC,
a
boost controller that holds 1.0 bar to redline, and 13G turbos,
not to
mention that he is a better driver than I. I must say
that I am very
skeptical... If it is true, then I'm in no hurry
to run out and blow
money on all of those mods.
-Jim
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From
owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Oct 27 11:26:25 1998
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From:
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To: "Team3S"
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Subject: Team3S: Paxton Supercharger
for us NTs???
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 11:26:52 -0800
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If there's a web page or other info
available about this, I am VERY
interested. I'm much more of a blower
guy than a turbo guy...
What kind of blower? Electric or
belt? ANY other info??? Tell him
I'll be one of his first
customers...
TIA
Forrest
-----Original
Message-----From: Todd D Shelton <tds@brightok.net>
|Also my engine
builder recently informed me that
|he may be offering a purpose built
supercharger package
|for the NA S/3K's from Paxton in the near future.
Talks
|are currently underway.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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In a message dated 10/27/98 1:39:40 PM Eastern Standard
Time, vr4@bahnhof.se
writes:
<< AND my car also holds 15psi all
the way upp to redline. Let's face it!
Blitz rules ;)
>>
heh.. I still dont see how a particular boost controller
can make the stock
9B's hold more boost than any other. I mean for
peetes sakes, pull the
wastegate accuators and you'll see what full boost is
through redline.
I think there's something wrong with your motor and its
creating excessive
back pressure, or maybe your exhuast isn't up to
par. If you run 11's with
those turbos let me know, and then your more
than likely holding 15psi through
redline with a sound motor!
:)
Doesn't buy into the "Blitz rules all",
Mike Mahaffey -
'94 Stealth tt Best et: 11.6 Best mph:
120.7
- 12.1's with stock motor/turbos redlining at 10.5psi
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue
Oct 27 13:05:30 1998
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Date:
Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:05:25 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh
<middaugh@omega.gat.com>
Organization: General Atomics - Fusion
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>
>
> << AND my car also holds 15psi
all the way upp to redline. Let's face it!
> Blitz rules ;)
>>
>
> heh.. I still dont see how a particular boost
controller can make the stock
> 9B's hold more boost than any other.
I mean for peetes sakes, pull the
> wastegate accuators and you'll see
what full boost is through redline.
Actually, this is not true. A
given turbo has it's optimum operating range over a
specific range of exhaust
pressure on the input turbine. If there is too little
exhaust pressure
(low RPM or light throttle) or too much exhaust pressure (WOT at high
RPM),
then the turbo won't be within its optimum range and lower boost pressure
will
result. This is why the boost pressure falls as RPM rise while
using a bleeder valve
or the stock boost control lines are
disconnected. An electronic boost controller can
rapidly cycle the
waste gates to prevent excessive pressure on the input turbine, thus
keeping
the turbo within it's optimum operating range and maintaining the
maximum
boost/cfm the turbo can provide.
Below is an excellent post
from the DSM list on turbo theory that Chris Dotur reposted
to the starnet
list earlier this year.
--
Ken Middaugh
General Atomics
San
Diego
(619) 455-4510
<<< INCLUDED POST
Another tidbit I
thought should be passed on from the DSM list....
Chris
Well,
let's kick off a new theory session, shall we?
If you haven't done so, go
use the Archive Search Engine and read my
previous series on Turbo Theory.
We're going to get into some meaty
stuff here, and if you don't know the
basics, you'll get lost.
So - Turbo Sizing:
Both ends of the
turbocharger are turbines (well, strictly speaking the
hot end is a turbine,
the cold end is a radial compressor - but I'll use
"turbine" here
to mean "thingy with sorta-fan-shaped blades on it that
rotates and does
stuff with gases") - and one of the defining
characteristics of turbines
is that they are very efficient within a
certain range of
operation.
That is, they like to be run at a constant speed, and at that
constant
speed, they will work _very_ well. Run them too fast, or too slow,
and
efficiency suffers very badly, as things like cavitation and surge
add
heat to the outflow.
Consider this: The Ideal Gas Law tells us
that when we compress air, the
temperature of this air goes up. This is a law
of nature, there is
_nothing_ that can be done to prevent this from
happening. However, it
is certainly possible to impart even _more_ heat into
the airflow by
overspeeding/underspeeding the compressor.
This is
bad.
To make the maximum amount of power possible, we need to keep
every
single excess calorie out of the output air we can. Yes, we will
be
running that air through an intercooler later, but there are
practical
limits to how much heat we can pull out of the airstream with
our
intercooler. The less heat coming into the intercooler in the
first
place, the lower we can make the outlet temperature. The lower the
I/C
outlet temperature, the more power we make. (Increased density,
reduced
chance of detonation)
Heat MATTERS.
As it turns out,
the two variables that control the efficiency of a
compressor are 1) The
amount of airflow we need it to be able to push,
and 2) how much we want this
airflow compressed, expressed as a pressure
ratio.
Well whaddya know,
we can compute this fairly easily!
First, we need the amount of airflow
without any turbo, which is:
(CID * MAX_RPM * VE) / (3456) =
CFM
Plugging in the values for the 2.0l Mitsu, we get:
(121.9 *
7200 * .85) / (3456) = 216 CFM
{Is my displacement value right? I'm working
from memory}
Next, we need to decide how much boost we intend to
run.
That's right, decide how much boost you intend to run FIRST.
Installing
a turbo, then cranking up the boost to make it go faster
is
bass-ackwards. By cranking up the boost on a properly sized turbo,
you
are changing one of the variables that determine efficiency, and so
you
are imparting MORE heat into your intake charge. Yes, you make
more
power at higher boost levels, but you are making FAR LESS power than
you
would if the turbo had been sized for that boost level in the
first
place.
Heat MATTERS.
We'll use 14.7 PSI for this example.
(you'll see why in a sec)
Pressure ratio is (BOOST + 14.7) / 14.7
(remember that 14.4 psi is
atmospheric pressure, so our pressure ratio is
(14.7 + 14.7) / 14.7 = 2.
Heh. :) So I cheat. Sue me.
Now we need
to find out how much airflow we have at 14.7 psi of boost.
FULL_BOOST_CFM
= PRESSURE_RATIO *
NA_CFM
= 2 *
216
= 416 CFM
Let's also work out the CFM we first want to see full boost
at:
(121.9 * 3000 * .85) / 3456 * 2 = 180 CFM
So, we now have an onset
CFM value, a max CFM value and a pressure ratio
value. We can now get our
hands on a whole bunch of pressure maps from
the turbo manufacturers, and
pick the turbo that is the most efficient
at these points.
Pressure
map?
That's a graph that has CFM on the x-axis and pressure ratio on
the
y-axis. Lines that join points of equal efficiency are plotted in
the
middle, the same way contour lines join points of equal altitude on
a
topographical map. I can't do one in ASCII art, sorry. :(
By
plotting the intersection of onset CFM and pressure ratio, max CFM
and
pressure ratio, and joining the dots, we get a line that represents
the
operating range of the turbo. By comparing the maps of all the
turbos we can
find to this line, we can pick the turbo that gives us the
best efficiency
numbers across this line.
...or you can call the manufacturers, give them
the numbers, and let
THEM do the comparing for you. :)
Ta daa! We've
sized our first compressor.
(The hot side turbine we'll discuss
later)
This of course, begs the question: "How much power will this
make?"
And the answer is... a topic for later discussion.
:)
DG
>>>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt
Tue Oct 27 14:33:48 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification of the EU
turbos
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<36363594.E131FBC2@omega.gat.com>
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Ken Middaugh commented on the following comments
(prior to my ending comment) in the pre
dawn dimness of the late twentieth
century:
> >
> >
> > << AND my car also
holds 15psi all the way upp to redline. Let's face it!
> > Blitz rules
;) >>
> >
> > heh.. I still dont see how a
particular boost controller can make the stock
> > 9B's hold more boost
than any other. I mean for peetes sakes, pull the
> > wastegate
accuators and you'll see what full boost is through redline.
>
>
Actually, this is not true. A given turbo has it's optimum operating range
over a
> specific range of exhaust pressure on the input turbine. If
there is too little
> exhaust pressure (low RPM or light throttle) or too
much exhaust pressure (WOT at high
> RPM), then the turbo won't be within
its optimum range and lower boost pressure will
> result. This is
why the boost pressure falls as RPM rise while using a bleeder valve
> or
the stock boost control lines are disconnected. An electronic boost
controller can
> rapidly cycle the waste gates to prevent excessive
pressure on the input turbine, thus
> keeping the turbo within it's
optimum operating range and maintaining the maximum
> boost/cfm the turbo
can provide.
So, what I hear you aying here Ken, and what the claims of
the Blitz dual crowd are, is
that the dual solenoid setup can operate
faster at opening and closing than the single
solenoid setup, of say Apexi.
(I just purchased the latter incidentally, because it seems
more applicable
to street use, where it's track errr true record shows that it's
response
time at the low end is superior to Blitz. If you want a track car
with major mods, lots of
adjustable features, bells and whistles, then Blitz
seems to be the consensus BC. But Jim.
Barry, Errin, Jack, myself, and a few
others, have gone with Apexi for reasons
stated...and perhaps for ones not
noted. : )
Darc
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue
Oct 27 14:43:58 1998
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reminder
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Hi lads;
Another generic reminder...delete all (ie:
snip) inappropriate or
otherwise unrelated information from your RESPONSE
before you send it.
We don't need the whole thread included. Disregard this
reminder if not
applicable.
Yet another reminder...no warm
fuzzies on this list. It's
(metaphorically) for those of you who drink it
back or on the rocks.
Gotta hate these recent threads if you're into
fashion!!! Too much
grease! : ) : ) : )
FFO.
Darc
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From: Ken Middaugh
<middaugh@omega.gat.com>
Organization: General Atomics - Fusion
Division
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Subject:
Re: Team3S: Identification of the EU turbos
References:
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> So, what I hear you aying here Ken, and what the
claims of the Blitz dual crowd are, is
> that the dual solenoid
setup can operate faster at opening and closing than the single
> solenoid
setup, of say Apexi. (I just purchased the latter incidentally, because it
seems
> more applicable to street use, where it's track errr true record
shows that it's response
> time at the low end is superior to Blitz. If
you want a track car with major mods, lots of
> adjustable features, bells
and whistles, then Blitz seems to be the consensus BC. But Jim.
> Barry,
Errin, Jack, myself, and a few others, have gone with Apexi for reasons
>
stated...and perhaps for ones not noted. : )
I didn't say that. Did
I say that? :) I'm not in the "best boost controller" debate (I
am
in the BC information gathering mode however).
Your deduction might
be correct though. The dual solenoid setup might be better
at
controlling the wastegates. However I think any boost controller's
effectiveness is a
function of both it's hardware and software
together. Perhaps a dual solenoid Apexi would be
the ultimate BC
providing both quick low end response and high RPM boost hold
capability!
Hmmm, just a thought.
--
Ken Middaugh
General
Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification of the EU
turbos
References: <2a55e71d.36362be8@aol.com>
<36363594.E131FBC2@omega.gat.com>
<363649D6.277BD283@bc.sympatico.ca>
<36365A25.D0B2B0B2@omega.gat.com>
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> Darc
commented on Ken's below quoted input thusly:
> I didn't say
that. Did I say that? :) I'm not in the "best boost
controller" debate (I am
> in the BC information gathering mode
however).
I am in that mode as well Ken... sorry to appear less than
that, and appologies for any perceived
assumptions made to suggest otherwise
on your great input....the ultimate BC is as you suggest,
somewhere
between the two (or four +..I keep forgetting the others) and the manufacturers
should
be dancing in the streets for the free infortmation provided
here.
>
>
> Your deduction might be correct though.
The dual solenoid setup might be better at
> controlling the
wastegates.
Actually it is not mine...Chein at Nexus, Jim, and others
have suggested it before I did...but
because it was in personal e-mail, it
did not appear here.
> However I think any boost controller's
effectiveness is a
> function of both it's hardware and software
together. Perhaps a dual solenoid Apexi would be
> the ultimate BC
providing both quick low end response and high RPM boost hold
capability!
> Hmmm, just a thought.
And a good thought at
that.
Darc
>
--------------CDB2138D117165FEB0E3F220
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<HTML>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Darc commented on
Ken's below quoted input
thusly:</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE
TYPE=CITE>I didn't say that. Did I say that? :)
I'm
not in the "best boost controller" debate (I am
<BR>in the BC
information gathering mode however).</BLOCKQUOTE>
I am in that mode as
well Ken... sorry to appear less than that, and appologies
for any perceived
assumptions made to suggest otherwise on your great input....the
ultimate BC
is as you suggest, somewhere between the two (or four
+..I keep
forgetting the others) and the manufacturers should be dancing
in the streets
for the free infortmation provided here.
<BLOCKQUOTE
TYPE=CITE>
<P>Your deduction might be correct
though. The dual solenoid setup
might be better
at
<BR>controlling the wastegates.</BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually it is
not mine...Chein at Nexus, Jim, and others have suggested
it before I
did...but because it was in personal e-mail, it did not
appear
here.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>However I think any boost
controller's effectiveness
is a
<BR>function of both it's hardware
and software together. Perhaps
a dual solenoid Apexi would
be
<BR>the ultimate BC providing both quick low end response and high
RPM
boost hold capability!
<BR>Hmmm, just a
thought.</BLOCKQUOTE>
And a good thought at
that.
<P>Darc
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE><A
HREF="http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm"></A> </BLOCKQUOTE>
</HTML>
--------------CDB2138D117165FEB0E3F220--
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue
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Subject: Team3S:
Abbreviations
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We need to sort out some of our abbreviations/slang for
posterity.
So here's the list...fill in the blanks and repost it for
those of us
with a learning disadvantage...you will be graded on this short
quiz, so
assume nothing, including what appears to be give away points. :
)
BC Boost Controller: (1)
APEXI-AVC-R (single
solenoid)
(2) BLITZ- DS (dual
solenoid)
(3)
GREDDY
(4) HKS
EGT's Exhaust Gas
Temperatures
- A thermal EGT sensor and guage
for monitoring the
same
are recommended if you have
major mods.
MASC (we
need a good definition here... a new product >>> TRE
MASC)
MAS
AFR
EGT
Spool Up
Boost
EBP Exhaust back
pressure....effects both spool up and boost
ECU
DQ Dumb
question...there are none..so don't preface queries with such
a statement..
......... you're either brave or you're not!
WOT
Please add other
abbreviations/slang to this list and repost it at the
appropriate
time...which is when you see it, are confused, or when you
coin the
term/s.
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue
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Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 02:12:34
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Subject: Re: Team3S:
Abbreviations
References:
<3636952D.2ECFB9BB@bc.sympatico.ca>
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I've filled out some of the list below (look for the
*). Please correct
me if I'm wrong.
Jose
92
TT
wce@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:
>
><SNIP>
>
> BC...........Boost Controller: (1) APEXI-AVC-R (single
solenoid)
>
(2) BLITZ- DS (dual
solenoid)
>
(3)
GREDDY
>
(4)
HKS
*
(5) SARD
>
> EGT's........Exhaust Gas Temperatures - A
thermal EGT sensor and
guage
>
for monitoring the same are recommended if you have major mods.
>
* TRE
MASC.....Team Rip Engineering Mass Air Sensor (and) Controller????
*
MAS..........Mass Air Sensor
* AFR..........Air Fuel Ratio
> Spool
Up
> Boost
> EBP..........Exhaust back pressure....effects both
spool up and boost
* ECU..........Engine (or Electronic??) Control
Unit
> DQ...........Dumb question, there are none so don't preface queries
with
such
>
a statement.- you're either brave or you're not!
* WOT..........Wide Open
Throttle
>
><SNIP>
IDC..........Injector Duty
Cycle
C/D..........Coefficient of Drag (That's capital C subscript D) Is
it
0.32 or 0.29 for our cars? I can't remember!
XTDC.........X =
B or A (Before or After) Top Dead Center ->
Piston
positions.
BDC..........Bottom Dead Center ---> see TDC
above
EGR..........Exhaust Gas Recirculating
Pipe
PCV..........Positive Crankcase Recirculating
Valve/Hose
PSI..........Pounds per Square Inch
ETC..........etc...
:)
Later,
JS
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed
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From: "Todd D
Shelton" <tds@brightok.net>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Paxton
Supercharger for us NTs???
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:41:42
-0600
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I think I'll defer to my engine builder on
this Bob
in case I've released info that
wasn't supposed to be released yet.
He is
monitoring this list and I'm sure
he'll pass on details whenever
possible.
-
tds
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Forrest
<bf@bobforrest.com>
To: Team3S
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Tuesday,
October 27, 1998 1:26 PM
Subject: Team3S: Paxton
Supercharger for us NTs???=20
=20
=20
If there's a web page or other info available about
this, I am VERY
interested. I'm much more of a
blower guy than a turbo guy...
=20
What
kind of blower? Electric or belt? ANY other info??? Tell
him
I'll be one of his first customers...
=20
TIA
=20
Forrest
=20
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BE024E.C9DA8AC0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3
HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META
content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1
=
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML
4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY
bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I think
I'll defer to my engine
=
builder=20
on</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2>this Bob in
=
case I've=20
released info
that</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>wasn't supposed
to be released yet.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>He is monitoring this list and I'm
sure</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>he'll pass on
details whenever =
possible.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>- tds</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>----------------------------------------------------------------=
----------</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:
#000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT:
=
5px">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial
size=3D2><B>-----Original
=
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
</B>Bob Forrest <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:bf@bobforrest.com">bf@bobforrest.com</A>><BR><B>To:=20
</B>Team3S <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com">stealth-3000gt@list.sirius=
.com</A>><BR><B>Date:=20
</B>Tuesday, October 27, 1998 1:26 PM<BR><B>Subject:
</B>Team3S: =
Paxton=20
Supercharger for us
NTs??? <BR><BR></DIV></FONT>If there's a web =
page
or=20
other info available about this, I am
VERY<BR>interested. I'm =
much=20
more
of a blower guy than a turbo guy...<BR><BR>What kind of
=
blower? =20
Electric or belt? ANY
other info??? Tell him<BR>I'll be =
one
of=20
his
first=20
customers...<BR><BR>TIA<BR><BR>Forrest<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>=
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BE024E.C9DA8AC0--
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subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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Wed, 28 Oct 1998 16:19:26 +0100
From: Jim Matthews
<matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Abbreviations
References: <3636952D.2ECFB9BB@bc.sympatico.ca>
<3636C3E2.E7773191@engin.umich.edu>
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stealth-3000gt
> C/D..........Coefficient of Drag (That's capital C
subscript D) Is it
> 0.32 or 0.29 for our cars? I can't
remember!
Out of curiosity, what is the difference in C/D between a
2nd
gen VR-4 with active aero off, the same with acrive aero on,
and a 2nd
gen Stealth? Are the aerodynamics of the Stealth
closer to a VR-4 with
or without active aero engaged?
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden,
Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps
ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
*** 3000GT-Stealth
International (3Si) Member #0030
***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94
Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension,
Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84%
BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark
plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided
brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph
G-Tech
Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Oct 28 07:54:05 1998
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From: "Lloyd Wihl"
<Lloyd.Wihl@d25tss.cae.ca>
Organization: CAE Electronics Ltd.
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:47:22
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Subject: Team3S: C/D -
Drag coefficient
In-reply-to:
<363735FE.8B0654DF@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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stealth-3000gt
> Out of curiosity, what is the difference in C/D
between a 2nd
> gen VR-4 with active aero off, the same with acrive aero
on,
> and a 2nd gen Stealth? Are the aerodynamics of the
Stealth
> closer to a VR-4 with or without active aero
engaged?
Your 2nd generation Stealth has a Cd of 0.323. The first
generation
Stealth has a Cd of 0.33. I believe the published Cd of the VR-4
(which, if I recall, is essentially the same as the Stealth) is without
active aero on. Adding downforce will add induced drag, but I don't
know
the amount of downforce (and let's please not reopen the old
theoretical
discussion on boundary layer thickness!)
I took my first gen Stealth up
to 260 km/h on the weekend, and was
very impressed by the aerodynamic
stability and complete lack of
lift, considering that 747's can fly at that
speed!
Lloyd Wihl
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed
Oct 28 08:07:07 1998
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Abbreviations
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stealth-3000gt
Dont forget FPR... fuel pressure regulator
Mike -
'94 Stealth tt Best et: 11.6 Best mp: 120.7
In a message dated
10/28/98 2:16:38 AM Eastern Standard Time,
josesini@engin.umich.edu
writes:
<< >
> BC...........Boost Controller: (1)
APEXI-AVC-R (single
solenoid)
>
(2) BLITZ- DS (dual
solenoid)
>
(3)
GREDDY
>
(4)
HKS
*
(5) SARD
>
> EGT's........Exhaust Gas Temperatures - A
thermal EGT sensor and
guage
>
for monitoring the same are recommended if you have major
mods.
>
*
TRE MASC.....Team Rip Engineering Mass Air Sensor (and) Controller????
*
MAS..........Mass Air Sensor
* AFR..........Air Fuel Ratio
> Spool
Up
> Boost
> EBP..........Exhaust back pressure....effects both
spool up and boost
* ECU..........Engine (or Electronic??) Control
Unit
> DQ...........Dumb question, there are none so don't preface queries
with
such
>
a statement.- you're either brave or you're not!
* WOT..........Wide Open
Throttle
>
><SNIP>
IDC..........Injector Duty
Cycle
C/D..........Coefficient of Drag (That's capital C subscript D) Is
it
0.32 or 0.29 for our cars? I can't remember!
XTDC.........X =
B or A (Before or After) Top Dead Center ->
Piston
positions.
BDC..........Bottom Dead Center ---> see TDC
above
EGR..........Exhaust Gas Recirculating
Pipe
PCV..........Positive Crankcase Recirculating
Valve/Hose
PSI..........Pounds per Square Inch
ETC..........etc...
:) >>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed
Oct 28 08:17:45 1998
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From: Chris Winkley
<cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To:
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Boost Controllers (was:
Team3S: Identification of the EU turbos)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:18:20
-0800
Organization: ADP Dealer Services
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stealth-3000gt
Howdy folks...
Thought I'd jump in with a third,
somewhat subjective perspective. I have the GReddy PRofec BC on my VR4. Now
that I've got it programmed properly, it's a kick in the pants.
:-) As for holding boost, it appears to
stay at 1.1 bar (where
it's programmed) all the way to 7Krpm. I have yet to test the OTB (overtake
boost)
button which I programmed at 1.3 bar (concerned about fuel delivery
and detonation). FWIW, I have stock
turbos and injectors w/modified intake
and exhaust. Now that I have a G-Tech, I'll get some objective numbers
back
to you all when the streets are dry. Oh, the gas is 92 octane here in Portland,
but I usually throw in a
can or two of "off-road" only
booster.
Didn't Darc say Jim (or someone?) has done a comparison of the
different controllers? I'd love to see that
document.
Looking
forward...Chris
"Friends don't let friends ride with
me"
1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4
-----Original
Message-----
From: Ken Middaugh [SMTP:middaugh@omega.gat.com]
Sent:
Tuesday, October 27, 1998 3:41 PM
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification of the EU
turbos
<snip>
I didn't say that. Did I say that?
:) I'm not in the "best boost controller" debate (I am
in the
BC information gathering mode however).
<more snip>
Ken
Middaugh
<last snip>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Oct 28 08:18:07 1998
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From: Brad Bedell
<bbedell@texas.net>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S:
Abbreviations
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:16:45 -0600
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Hrmm......
What about Burnt Piston, shattered transfer case,
Broken transmission, Spun main or rod bearing :)
Those seem to be
getting off the list of the original post.
> Brad
>
>
Check out my home page:
http://lonestar.texas.net/~bbedell
> E-Mail: bbedell@texas.net ICQ#
3612682
-----Original Message-----
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Abbreviations
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AQAAAAQAAAA4LjAAAwAmgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAAYUAAAAAAAALAC+ACCAGAAAAAADA
AAAAAAAARgAAAAAOhQAAAAAAAAMAMIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABGFAAAAAAAAAwAygAgg
BgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAGIUAAAAAAAAeAEGACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA2hQAAAQAA
AAEAAAAAAAAAHgBCgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAN4UAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AQ4AIIAYA
AAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADiFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAAMADTT9
NwAA5xk=
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=_NextPart_000_01BE025C.1173C880--
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From
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From: Bob Fontana
<bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: "'Stealth List'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Green Beast
update
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:23:24 -0500
Organization: Security
Technologies Group, Inc.
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Hi,
I got my motor assembled to the point that I
had the turbos "hung" and was
ready to do the coolant and ignition
systems. For the heck of it, I decided to
do a compression check by
cranking the motor while it was on the engine stand.
It's easy -- simply put
a 1/2" drive on your crank pulley and spin the crank a
few times.
Your cylinder pressures don't go up to 150 PSI or anything, but
such a test
will reveal gross problems.
Naturally, I had one. An intake valve
on #1 cylinder wasn't seating. I put
the piston at TDC and blew into
the spark plug hole. Hissssssss. Damn. I
asked a few
people, including Dan the MachineShopMan, whether after the motor
was
started up, would the valve possibly seat. I got varying answers.
One
suggestion was to loosen the cam caps to allow the valves to move freely
up and
down. That requires removing the timing belt. Okay, I do
that. I move the
valves up and down as best I can with the springs in
place. Seems okay. I
tighten the cam caps back to spec., reset
the auto tensioner and re-do the
timing belt. Everything in place, I
blow into #1 cylinder. Hisssssss. DAMN!
I take the intake
manifold, front turbo, front cover, auto tensioner, timing
belt and head
off.
Take the head to the machine shop. Dan the MachineShopMan puts
in on his flow
bench and we immediately see that the valve isn't
closing. We shine a
flashlight into the intake port and see a good
crack of light between the valve
and seat. Take the valve out and find
a tiny flake of aluminum stuck on the
valve seat. That little piece of
metal was enough to not only hang the valve
open but it actually put a tiny
dent on the valve surface. The remedy was
quick and effective: lightly
grind the valve and lap it to be sure everything
seats properly.
Presto, we get a perfect seal an I'm down the road. Too bad I
wasted a
week poking at it before deciding to take the head off!
Nobody knows how
a flake of metal got in between the valve and the seat but
it's not hard to
make happen. A piece of advice after this: whenever you have
your
plenum and/or intake manifold off, keep the intake ports covered with a
CLEAN cloth at all times. I hope this saves someone the aggravation
that I
had.
-Bob
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed
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Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:00:48
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From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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Subject: Re: Boost Controllers (was: Team3S:
Identification of the EU turbos)
References:
<01BE024B.86C4CDC0.cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
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> GReddy PRofec BC on my VR4. Now that I've got it
programmed properly, it's a
> kick in the pants. :-) As
for holding boost, it appears to stay at 1.1 bar
> (where it's programmed)
all the way to 7Krpm.
With its FUZZY logic it alters the way to hold
boost up to the redline.
> (overtake boost) button which I programmed
at 1.3 bar (concerned about fuel
> delivery and detonation).
Wowow,
1.3bars ! I always ran into fuel cut around 1.25bars and even got the
timing
retared after 1.2bars. I'd not go to this boost level without having an
EGT
probe ! If you do, I can tell you what will go south :(
> FWIW, I have
stock turbos and injectors w/modified intake and exhaust.
Can you please
specify what your modified intake is, the air filter or more ?
> Now
that I have a G-Tech, I'll get some objective numbers back to you all
>
when the streets are dry.
Yes, please, let's compare :)
>
Didn't Darc say Jim (or someone?) has done a comparison of the different
>
controllers? I'd love to see that document.
I sent him a feature
comparison table with the Blitz DSBC and the S-AVCR with
weightings to help
for his decision.
-----------------------
Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed
Oct 28 13:35:01 1998
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Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:24:01
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From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification of the EU
turbos
References: <001901be013e$ca964b40$6b6cfed0@g764f>
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> Well, that would explain why Roger's turbos spool up
slower
> than mine but can hold 1.0 bar to redline.
Hmmm, I
remember that the spool up was much better before the engine got weaker
and
weaker. I doubt that the 9B and 13G make a big difference in spool-up
and
that it was so noticeable in our comparision.
> But I find it
very interesting that Roger and I are seeing the exact same
> G-Tech times
when he has (in addition to my mods) DP, exhaust, AFC,
> a boost
controller that holds 1.0 bar to redline, and 13G turbos,
> not to mention
that he is a better driver than I.
Nononono, I'm a REAL BAD starter and
even with my modified Z28 I'm too stupid to
see figures under 13.9 :( Same
cars with same mods see about 13.4 ! Also I maybe
good in driving the cars
around corners and so but this doesn't mean that I'm
the better driver than
you ;-)
For the mods, I also wonder why our EU cars are lower hp rated
(284 DIN) than
the US cars. With 13G the stock max boost is only around
0.45bars but with the
bleeder set around 0.7bars I got healthy 350hp. For the
exhaust, I still stand
behind the theory that without removing the pre-cats
no big gains can be
achieved (with 13G !) Even with the DP, !cat and Borla I
saw no improvement at
all :( The AFC doesn't help anything. I thought to get
rid of the fuel cut and
hesitation and it does, but I runned pretty quick
into fuel-cut as I tried to
richen the mixture. Therefore, the thing would be
great to fine-tune a healthy
system that is able to deliver enough fuel.
Around 4000-4500 we were able to
lean it out a little more and got about 10hp
then. But knock was still there :(
For the turbos, they are really 13Gs
(thanks a lot to all that replied).
Therefore it is more clear why it holds
boost up to the redline. But don't
forget Mikaels setup. His US-car has the
9B and boost is also hold pretty well.
Interestingly, we had about the same
settings for the Blitz until he used the
engine flush. Now it seems that his
spool-up also got quicker, Mikael ?
> I must say that I am very
skeptical... If it is true, then I'm in no hurry
> to run out and
blow money on all of those mods.
You are right ! I was too much a
believer and thats why I was somewhat
dissapointed on the dyno results (with
the DSBC switched off). Today the path is
more clear. And this says that the
turbos are the very next upgrade after the BC
and Filter. This then must be
combined as good as possible with exhaust parts
that are free of
restrictions. Then also fuel and cooling must be enhanced to go
the safe way.
Don't forget the EGT probes to monitor the danger ! All these
stuff means :
$$$
BTW, I wonder how the huge 386S turbos will show lag (size like a
20G). Of
course, I have to find a way to get rid of the pre-cats
!
Cheers,
Roger
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Oct 28 13:35:03 1998
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Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:28:54
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From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification of the EU
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> Regarding to the Mitsubishi importer in Sweden there
is NO difference between
> the US turbo and Euro turbo.
The picture
I took form the stock babies are showing that these are 13Gs indeed.
Maybe
with the todays models they have all the same size ? I remember that
Mitsu
Switz. told me that the Turbos, Injectors, ECUs and Brakes are
different. Also
the EU cars do not have the adjustable exhaust (always
open)
Later,
Roger
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page
is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt
Wed Oct 28 14:15:15 1998
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From: Chris Winkley
<cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To:
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Boost Controllers (was:
Team3S: Identification of the EU turbos)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 14:15:54
-0800
Organization: ADP Dealer Services
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Roger asked...
Can you please specify what your
modified intake is, the air filter or more?
Chris replies...
Just
a HKS filter.
Roger states...
I sent him a feature comparison
table with the Blitz DSBC and the S-AVCR with weightings to help for his
decision.
Chris asks...
Can we see this? Since "we"
made the rule we can't add attachments, could you send it to me privately? I'm
toying with the idea of getting a Blitz to replace my GReddy. It would
actually be neat if we could compare
spec sheets on all of them. Some one
added a fifth to the list of abbreviations Darc started (thanks Darc). I
suppose we could make it six if we add the age old aquarium petcock (I mean
valve, if that sounds better).
:-)
Looking
forward...Chris
"Friends don't let friends ride with
me"
1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4
For subscribe/unsubscribe
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From
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From: Chris Winkley
<cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'Team3S'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: More on (not moron)
boost controllers
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 14:42:07 -0800
Organization: ADP
Dealer Services
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Howdy folks...
I was digging through my old e-mails
searching for some downpipe/test pipe dealer numbers and came across
this
piece on Boost Controllers. I've snipped some of the excess text, but it's still
long. It was a response
to a similar thread as we've been discussing. The
author is credited at the end.
Looking
forward...Chris
"Friends don't let friends ride with
me"
1995 Glacier Pearl White
VR4
=================================
HKS EVC IV:
Not all that
impressed with it. I still think it looks better than some of the other units
out there. Have
installed it on a
DSM and it ran fine. Did a
RX-7......owner wanted it out in 3 weeks and swapped it for a Apex. Horror
stories
from some 3/S list members as well as owners from other makes. I've
never had a problem with this unit
personally, but it wouldn't be my first
choice for a electronic boost controller (price is higher than the
competition). A 3 on a scale of 5.
Greddy Profec
A $530
I like this unit
very much. I've been impressed with it's boost stability and responsiveness. The
price isn't
bad when you compare
this to the HKS and the Apex. The red
display is a little bit better in the sunlight than the green in the
AVC-R
(when mounting in any location where it's prone to be hit by sunlight). We run
this in our own VR-4.
Don't care much for the looks though. 5 out of
5.
Apex Super AVC-R
$550
Another unit that I like. Performance between the AVC-R and the
Profec is a near tie. Very nice at holding
boost. You also get the added
feature of injector duty cycle monitoring. No fuzzy logic. Programming is done
by setting the duty cycle and making some WOT runs under load (usually 3rd
gear). This unit is supposedly
easier to tune than the Fuzzy Logic
controllers that's so highly touted by it's competitors. I'm not so sure
of
that. Apex has it right in theory, but I think most people get confused with
setting and tuning the
injector duty cycle. Also, the actuator valve can be
noisy. On some cars (like my GSX...grrr), it's near
impossible to find a
location that drowns out the noise. Apex supplies a damping mount, sort of like
a little
piece of Dyna-Mat, but sometimes that does not even work. The
result is a constant ticking sound when under
high boost that's very audible
in the cabin. Of course I'm just nitpicking here. 4 out of 5. Would
have
rated it higher if not for the confusing duty cycle
setting.
Blitz Dual
SBC $480
Features
and Performance of the Blitz DSBC is a near clone of the Greddy Profec
"A". Looks better too. This
unit is a tiny one. Ease of
mounting and the numerous mounting locations because of size is a plus. Thumbs
down to the display. It's good, but it's tiny as well. Most folks likes to
run a boost gauge that reads in
Psi anyway. Very high quality unit, and
priced much lower than the competition. 5 out of 5. The AVC-R in the
GSX is
about to find a new home..........
SARD
EBC
$490
EBC? Are we talking about the SARD Trigger here? The Trigger
is a boost gauge looking unit (round, fits in
A-pillar though I'm not sure
if it's 52mm). Basically, a very compact boost controller in the body of a boost
gauge. Not sure about performance, but I think it can be successful if
market properly. Which btw, Sard and
Akimoto have done a very poor job of.
It came out in Japan a few months ago, and I saw it at SEMA in
Akimoto's
booth....that's about it. I suppose it was designed to be mounted like a boost
gauge (which
normally goes on the A-pillar), but the resulting wiring
harnesses and vacuum hoses must be a nightmare to
route. No
rating.
***All opinions expressed are my own. Your satisfaction may
differ. Please, no flames from the HKS or Apex
camps :)
***
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chien
Nexus
Motorsports Import Performance Parts
Specialist
Phone: (888) 996-3988 The Fastest 3000GT/Stealth 1/4
Mile Times Page
http://www.nexusmotorsports.comFor
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed
Oct 28 16:49:39 1998
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Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 16:47:31
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Subject: Re: Boost Controllers (was: Team3S:
Identification of the EU turbos)
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<01BE024B.86C4CDC0.cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
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Chris Winkley wrote:
> Howdy
folks...
>
> Thought I'd jump in with a third, somewhat subjective
perspective. I have the GReddy PRofec BC on my VR4. Now
> that I've got it
programmed properly, it's a kick in the pants. :-) As for
holding boost, it appears to
> stay at 1.1 bar (where it's programmed) all
the way to 7Krpm. I have yet to test the OTB (overtake boost)
> button
which I programmed at 1.3 bar (concerned about fuel delivery and detonation).
FWIW, I have stock
> turbos and injectors w/modified intake and exhaust.
Now that I have a G-Tech, I'll get some objective numbers
> back to you
all when the streets are dry. Oh, the gas is 92 octane here in Portland, but I
usually throw in a
> can or two of "off-road" only
booster.
<snip>
Looking forward to your figures when those streets dry up
Chris. If my Apexi ever arrives, I should be running in
the same ballpark
with you, as my mods are modest compared to some Team members
here.
>
>
> Didn't Darc say Jim (or someone?) has done
a comparison of the different controllers? I'd love to see that
>
document.
About this comparative analysis...Roger did it and
posted it to me on Apex-i and Blitz, back when I was undecided
which way to
go. As he went to a lot of effort to point score them, maybe you can twist his
arm and see if he
will post here. It's a damn good comparison. With some
other input, we may end up with a good comparative chart
of all the BC's thus
tested by members of the Team!
Darc
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Oct 28 16:57:07 1998
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From: "Todd D
Shelton" <tds@brightok.net>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Fw: Parts
Date:
Wed, 28 Oct 1998 18:56:23 -0600
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Here's some S3K parts for sell I was
asked
to forward to the lists. Hope this is acceptable
to do on this
list.
-
tds
http://www.brightok.net/~tds
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------
The
following parts are available to those looking for parts:
1. HKS turbo
exhaust for 3/S turbo cars single tip dual exhaust $400.00
2. HKS EVC
I with manual knob and low /high settings. The easiest to set of
all the
boost controllers. $300.00
3. OZ Mito Modular 17 X 8.5 rims for 3/S
cars particularly TT models. Same
wheels on Roger Gerl's car. Nice $1250.00
including shipping.
4. HKS Super Dragger for 3/S TT cars (one off my
show car)...$600.00
5. Greddy 60mm boost gauge (white face)
non-electronic. $50.00
6. 5spd rear differential (2) $500.00
each
7. Extremeor Body Kit (Original) painted pearl white. Fits 2nd gen
3/S only.
$2000.00
8. HKS Front mount Intercooler. Modified to fit 3/S
car, originally for TT
Supra. $1500.00
9. 3/S fiberglass hood looks
like TRD Supra hood with venting, painted
(pearl white), has stock latching
mech. Fits 94+ S3K's $500.00
10. Crane DI2 ignition boxes for
3/S cars (off my show car). $500.00 for the
pair.
11. AVS Super Advan
Wheels for 3/S cars as seen on many of the Japanesse
cars from Westcoast car
club in Japan. Also seen on Todd's site on the
Extremeor car and also on
RPM's web site as well on the Extremor car.
12. Bunch of misc. parts are
available from the strip down of our 96' 3000GT
SPIDER VR-4, all the interior
parts, gauges, axles, suspension etc. If you
are looking for something we
probably have it..The car is finally down to
"bare bones" and if
you need a FULL floor pan and firewall with front
windsheild we have it
too......(a little chared due to being cut out of the
car, (heh heh)..!! Yes,
we have, started the GT-399TR Spider project.
Any questions please call
us at (909) 394-5111 or e-mail us
at
THEGTALLEY@MSN.COM
Thanks,
Brian@The GT ALLEY
3/S Performance
Central
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed
Oct 28 21:00:03 1998
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From:
"Oskar" <swede@pclink.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification of
the EU turbos
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 23:00:39 -0600
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First of all - Thanks to you guys who
started this list. I'm finding it
very useful as I'm lurking, trying to
figure out what path to take with my
car.
>For the turbos, they are
really 13Gs (thanks a lot to all that replied).
>Therefore it is more
clear why it holds boost up to the redline. But don't
>forget Mikaels
setup. His US-car has the 9B and boost is also hold
pretty
well.
>Interestingly, we had about the same settings for the
Blitz until he used
the
>engine flush. Now it seems that his spool-up
also got quicker, Mikael ?
I would like to comment on the DSBCs
ability to hold boost with the stock
turbos. I rode with Mikael the
other week and as I recall one of the main
things I was planning to check out
was his brakes. Well... I mostly kept
my eyes peeled on the boost
gauge as he screamed down the beautiful Swedish
countyside. I'm no
expert, but I tell you all, his car was holding boost a
hell of a lot better
than my stock (except K&N) '95 TT. The boost gauge
(mechanical) was
staying right around the dialed-in 15 psi all the way, and
the car was
pulling much stronger than stock in the higher RPM range.
I guess seeing
is believing. I will definitely go with the DSBC and I'll
let you know
of my results. Maybe I'll be able to do some semi-scientific
measuring
of before and after.
Mikael, I'm curious about the engine flush
mentioned. What did you do that
improved the
spool-up?
Oskar
'95 R/T TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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From:
"Oskar" <swede@pclink.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: C/D - Drag
coefficient
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 23:14:56 -0600
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---- begin snip
---
Your 2nd generation Stealth has a Cd of 0.323. The first
generation
Stealth has a Cd of 0.33. I believe the published Cd of the
VR-4
(which, if I recall, is essentially the same as the Stealth) is
without
active aero on. Adding downforce will add induced drag, but I
don't
know the amount of downforce (and let's please not reopen the
old
theoretical discussion on boundary layer thickness!)
---
end snip ---
Does anyone know if the Stealth rear wing actually generates
any downforce?
It is also my understanding, from previous posts, that the
active aero
actually does aid in keeping the 3K more stable at hight speeds
as compared
to the Stealth. So I guess AE is more than just a
toy... Comments? Is the
3K noticeably more
stable?
Oskar
'95 R/T TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Oct 28 23:43:19 1998
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From: Brad Bedell
<bbedell@texas.net>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: C/D - Drag
coefficient
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 01:41:51 -0600
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------
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Hrmm..
Yeah I think it is more stable at speeds over 170mph...
I tested this
theory tonight. It feels safer, but it could just be effort
justification.
BTW: when that truck pulled out in front of me I just
taped the brakes and knocked 100mph off my speed. :)
The brembo setup is
well worth the money. Now I need to convert the rear brakes to four
piston.
> Brad
>
> Check out my home
page: http://lonestar.texas.net/~bbedell
> E-Mail:
bbedell@texas.net ICQ# 3612682
-----Original
Message-----
From: Oskar [SMTP:swede@pclink.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October
28, 1998 11:15 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S:
C/D - Drag coefficient
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AA00/TcAAP7l
------
=_NextPart_000_01BE02DD.4DA2DEA0--
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From
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Subject: RE: Team3S: Engine Flush was:
ID EU turbos
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 09:03:26 +0100
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-----Original-----
From: Oskar
<swede@pclink.com>
>Mikael, I'm curious about the engine flush
mentioned. What did you do that
>improved the
spool-up?
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here
is a letter that I sent to Roger regarding the "flush".
Hi
Roger,
Last night I tried a bottle of "engine flush". It's some
oil additive that you add to the oil and then drive the car for 15-30 minutes
and then change oil and filter. It's supposed to work as a internal engine wash
and shall remove all "dirt" inside the engine. I got this stuff from
Mark and they use it on the Mondeo 24V because they have the same ticking
problem as the 3000gt have.
When I was driving with this stuff I had
fuelcut where I never had it before and the boost built up incredible fast and I
had incredible overboost. I didn't bother to adjust the Blitz at this point. I
just headed back home and changed oil and filter.
When driving to work
this morning I noticed the same fenomenon as last night. I have now taken the
the Gain down 4 steps and the ratio down 5 steps I have aslo set the limiter at
1.03 instead of 1.10. And I now have faster spool up time and the same boost as
before.
I gues that this "magic engine flush" really cleaned
something in my turbos and they now spin easier.
It shall be very
interesting to see if the performance will hold or if it will go back to
"normal" again.
/Mikael
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Engine Flush was: ID EU
turbos
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<00ee01be0312$9bee8f70$169f0fc1@mikaela.corechange.se>
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Mikael, team....
I also used a flush recently (
made by Gunk), which was prompted by your success I might add. I had purchased
it long before but was aphrehensive about using it, and so asked about it in a
post, to which Roger responded about your success. The ticking in my car has
also stopped as the result of it's use. It was slightly different than yours, as
this product said NOT TO DRIVE the vehicle
and to let idle for 5 minutes ONLY
before draining oil and removing filter. I'll try and find the drive around type
next time, as it makes sense that it would do more work if circulated longer and
at different RPM's. I had this one though, so I used it and am
pleased.
Darc
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu
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Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 11:14:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis
Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Engine Flush
In-Reply-To:
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Is using Automatic Transmission Fluid for the same purpose
a bad idea?
Is it at all effective?
I've done it on my
"salt car" a time or two, but never put any in my
Stealth. My
salt car (1985 Olds Firenza, 1.8l 4-banger, flogged hard) has
192K miles on
it, so it can't be *too* dangerous of a thing.
Dennis
Moore
stealth@kiva.net
93 Stealth ES
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Oct 29 12:00:47 1998
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Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998
21:02:40 +0100
From: Jim Matthews
<matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification of
the EU turbos
References: <001901be013e$ca964b40$6b6cfed0@g764f>
<363602A9.22CD11D1@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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R.G. wrote:
>
> For the turbos, they are
really 13Gs (thanks a lot to all that replied).
So how do you know?
How can you tell? The tubo housing for
a 9B is the same as for a
13G. I know we couldn't see the
numbers very well the day we tried to
look with a flashlight;
now that you can see them, do they show that there is
a 13G
compressor wheel inside? This is really quite
interesting.
You'd better be careful when installing performance mods
that
you get from the states, since they will surely be configured
for a
U.S. spec car with different turbos, injectors, ECU...
> Therefore
it is more clear why it holds boost up to the redline. But don't
> forget
Mikaels setup. His US-car has the 9B and boost is also hold pretty
well.
This I cannot figure out. I just plain don't see how one
boost
controller can maintain the specified boost pressure better
than
another. It seems to me that reaching the desired boost level
is
the easy part - any controller can just keep the wastegates closed.
The
real challenge is doing this without overboosting, and that's
where design
counts (faster solonoids, etc.). Maybe the AVC-R
_does_ have that
IDC-based anti-lean mechanism afterall... ?
> Interestingly, we
had about the same settings for the Blitz until he used the
> engine
flush. Now it seems that his spool-up also got quicker, Mikael ?
This
makes me nervous. Sounds like snake-oil to me! How would
this be
possible? I hope it causes no damage or reduction in
durability.
Reminds me of the story a go-kart racing friend of
mine told me about the
time he accidentally forgot to put oil
in his kart. The thing ran like
hell, just blowing by the
competition - until the engine seized!
:-|
> > I must say that I am very skeptical... If it is
true, then I'm in no hurry
> > to run out and blow money on all of
those mods.
>
> You are right ! I was too much a believer and thats
why I was somewhat
> dissapointed on the dyno results (with the DSBC
switched off). Today the path is
> more clear.
I can't wait to see
how your car performs with all of the new
mods. It's going to be a
monster! I hope things are going
well with the
rebuild.
-Jim
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden,
Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps
ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
*** 3000GT-Stealth
International (3Si) Member #0030
***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94
Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
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Adjustable Exhaust System
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plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
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brake lines
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G-Tech
Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
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From
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From:
"Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Engine
Flush
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 11:43:25 -0800
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-----Original Message-----From: Dennis
Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
|Is using Automatic Transmission Fluid for the
same purpose a bad idea?
|Is it at all effective?
|
|I've done it on my
"salt car" a time or two, but never put any in my
|Stealth.
My salt car (1985 Olds Firenza, 1.8l 4-banger, flogged hard)
has
|192K
miles on it, so it can't be *too* dangerous of a thing.
Through the
years, there have been any number of borderline "urban
legend" type
suggestions of good, cheap ways to clean out gunk from an
engine... I
would think that, logically, many of them might not even
cause damage, but
they still scare me. Automatic transmission fluid,
kerosene,
turpentine, gasoline, alcohol, and even gun oil have been sent
down through
the rumor mill as being "great ways" to dissolve sludge.
As
effective as some of these may be as engine detergents, I think logic
should
rule and keep us away from anything that might slip past the
rings (and cause
more harm than good); this probably eliminates all of
the
"legends" that in their primary usage are "thinners" or
"fuels". It
probably also eliminates some of the OTC
"engine cleaner" products which
are still on the market since
before the advent of "small-bore",
higher-revving, high
compression engines; unless a product says, "made
expressly for today's
high compression engines", I would be reluctant to
put it in my
crankcase.
Hopefully, we can get some input from an engine specialist
(engineer
variety) or carefully-researched article. For now, the only
thing I'll
use as an engine flush is a lighter, "proper" lubricant,
sloshed around
for a few minutes at high revs (at idle, not under load), and
quickly
replaced with the correct oil.
Forrest
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu
Oct 29 12:24:32 1998
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Identification of
the EU turbos
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:25:20 -0700
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The compressor housing of the TD04L-13G-6 cm^2 has a
different part number.
It is pretty obvious because right from Mistubishi
Heavy Industries the cast
in number in a TD04L-9B-6 cm^2 compressor housing
has one digit ground off
and then stamped in (same compressor housing other
than larger bore for the
13G wheel).
Also, the hot side (much harder
to see with turbos in the car) is a
different part number between the 9B and
the 13G. The 13G has a slightly
higher A/R ratio which accounts for the
part number difference, even though
they are both listed as 6 cm^2
housings. This information all comes
directly from Mitsubisihi Heavy
Industries in Chicago(?), verified by Miami
International where I got my 15Gs
built.
I agree with your contention about the DSBC. The reason
Roger's turbos held
boost better has to do with the fact that he has
13Gs. I am yet to be
convinced that the DSBC is any better at holding
boost to redline than say
an AVC-R. I'd have to see 15+ PSI in 2-4th at
7200 RPM on stock trubos to
believe it. *shrug* I know for a fact
that the AVC-R with my setup never
overboosts. With the AVC-R set at
1.35 bar (approx 19.5 PSI) with the MASC
overboost alram set to 20 PSI, it
has never gone off. My SPI gauge,the MASC
MAP sensor and the AVC-R all
agree on manifold pressure. I would expect
some overshoot from any
controller.
As to the "snake oil", although a healthy dose of
skepticism is definitely a
good thing, the claims made are certainly
possible. Detergents can break up
and disolve junk that gets stuck onto
surfaces, especially the plain
bearings in our turbos, and rejuvenate
them. Faster spool-up would stand
to
reason.
Regards,
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Jim Matthews
>
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 1:03 PM
> To: Stealth ListService
>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification of the EU turbos
>
>
>
R.G. wrote:
> >
> > For the turbos, they are really 13Gs
(thanks a lot to all that replied).
>
> So how do you know?
How can you tell? The tubo housing for
> a 9B is the same as for a
13G. I know we couldn't see the
> numbers very well the day we tried
to look with a flashlight;
> now that you can see them, do they show that
there is a 13G
> compressor wheel inside? This is really quite
interesting.
>
>
> > Therefore it is more clear why it
holds boost up to the
> redline. But don't
> > forget Mikaels
setup. His US-car has the 9B and boost is also
> hold pretty
well.
>
> This I cannot figure out. I just plain don't see how
one boost
> controller can maintain the specified boost pressure better
than
> another. It seems to me that reaching the desired boost level
is
> the easy part - any controller can just keep the wastegates
closed.
> The real challenge is doing this without overboosting, and
that's
> where design counts (faster solonoids, etc.). Maybe the
AVC-R
> _does_ have that IDC-based anti-lean mechanism afterall...
?
>
>
> > Interestingly, we had about the same settings for
the Blitz
> until he used the
> > engine flush. Now it seems that
his spool-up also got quicker, Mikael ?
>
> This makes me
nervous. Sounds like snake-oil to me! How would
> this be
possible? I hope it causes no damage or reduction in
>
durability. Reminds me of the story a go-kart racing friend of
>
mine told me about the time he accidentally forgot to put oil
> in his
kart. The thing ran like hell, just blowing by the
> competition -
until the engine seized! :-|
>
>
> > > I must say
that I am very skeptical... If it is true, then
> I'm in no
hurry
> > > to run out and blow money on all of those mods.
>
>
> > You are right ! I was too much a believer and thats why I was
somewhat
> > dissapointed on the dyno results (with the DSBC switched
off).
> Today the path is
> > more clear.
>
> I can't
wait to see how your car performs with all of the new
> mods. It's
going to be a monster! I hope things are going
> well with the
rebuild.
>
> -Jim
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web
page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Oct 29 13:02:38 1998
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Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 16:02:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis
Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Engine Flush
In-Reply-To:
<007701be0378$cba50120$79eb86cd@BobForrest>
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No problem there - the coating left on the inside of the
cylinders by the
Slick 50 should prevent any such leakage :o
(Forgive
me, I was young and ignorant 90K miles ago. I have since had
the error
of my ways pointed out to me.)
Word to the wise: Don't Use Slick 50, or
any similar cocktail. But
hopefully you all knew that already. If
you need more info, I'll dig out
a URL at the Department of Commerce with
more details on this subject.
Dennis Moore
stealth@kiva.net
93
Stealth ES
On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Bob Forrest wrote:
[snip]
>
should rule and keep us away from anything that might slip past the
>
rings (and cause more harm than good); this probably eliminates all
of
[snip]
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu
Oct 29 13:10:23 1998
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From: "Bob
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Engine
Flush
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:11:15 -0800
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-----Original Message-----From: Dennis
Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
|hopefully you all knew that
already. If you need more info, I'll dig
out
|a URL at the
Department of Commerce with more details on this subject.
Please
do! I'm keeping a folder of 'candidates' for the FAQ; how to
flush (or
how not to...) belongs in the
archives...
TIA,
Forrest
For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Oct 29 14:13:27 1998
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Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 22:55:56
+0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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Subject: Team3S: Re: Boost
Controllers
References:
<01BE027D.7AAEDBC0.cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME
format.
--------------B4494BF080842DFFC14C6AEC
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=us-ascii
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Ok, here it comes :)
(yes I found it somewhere in my sent items, <g>)
Attached you find
a small TXT file with the very subjective comparison of the
AVC-R and DSBC
controllers. Of course, everyone would enter their own weightings
of the
features, as for one could be a peak hold feature less important than for
the
other.
Maybe we can add features as well as other BC to the list
?
Later,
Roger
-----------------------
Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale
Rosso)
--------------B4494BF080842DFFC14C6AEC
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=us-ascii;
name="Boost controllers,
comparison.txt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition:
inline;
filename="Boost controllers, comparison.txt"
Please
note :
- the figures are very subjective
- feature range is 0 (not avail.,
bad) to 5 (great)
- weight is 1 (unimportant) to 5 (very important)
- the
weight and feature number are multiplicated and finally summarized
- during
the "learning" what the BC can do the weighting or the features my
change
- price is dealer
dependent
Feature
Blitz Apexi Weight
(personally)
-----------------------------------------
Boost
gauge
4
5 5
Peak
hold
5
0
4
Inj.Monitor
0
5
3
Settings
4
2 3
Overboost, Warn
4
2 5 (important for me)
Easyness,
Learn 3
5
3
Cost
4
4
4
Install
5
4 3 (AVC-R needs connection to the
ECU)
High rpm boost
5
4 5 (important)
Low rpm
boost 4
5 5
(important)
Features
4
4
5
Solenoid
4
3
3
Manual
2
4 3 (not necessarily
needed)
Display
3
4
4
----------------------------------------
Total
207
201
--------------B4494BF080842DFFC14C6AEC--
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subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu
Oct 29 14:13:28 1998
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Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 23:03:49
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification of the EU
turbos
References: <001901be013e$ca964b40$6b6cfed0@g764f>
<363602A9.22CD11D1@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
<36378B71.5D195233@swissonline.ch>
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> > For the turbos, they are really 13Gs (thanks a
lot to all that replied).
>
> So how do you know? How can you
tell? The tubo housing for
> a 9B is the same as for a
13G.
The compressor wheel as well as the numbers where identified as
13Gs. Mitsu says
that these are the bigger version as the ones that have been
installed in the
Eclipse. Nevertheless, I'll have them at home tomorrow and
make some more
close-ups.
> You'd better be careful when installing
performance mods that
> you get from the states, since they will surely be
configured
> for a U.S. spec car with different turbos, injectors,
ECU...
Hehe, turbos, injectors, fuel-pump, ECU are on their way into the
car :))
> I can't wait to see how your car performs with all of the
new
> mods. It's going to be a monster! I hope things are
going
> well with the rebuild.
The new pistons are in and the rear
head on. But the car sits around at Mitsu
because we are waiting for the
GT-Alley headers (good to do all the stuff
at
once).
-----------------------
Roger Gerl,
Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu
Oct 29 14:24:00 1998
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Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998
23:23:41 +0100
From: Mike Chapleski
<mike.chapleski@ibm.net>
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To:
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification of the EU
turbos
References: <001901be013e$ca964b40$6b6cfed0@g764f>
<363602A9.22CD11D1@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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> <snip>
>
> > Therefore it is
more clear why it holds boost up to the redline. But don't
> > forget
Mikaels setup. His US-car has the 9B and boost is also hold pretty
well.
>
> This I cannot figure out. I just plain don't see how
one boost
> controller can maintain the specified boost pressure better
than
> another. It seems to me that reaching the desired boost level
is
> the easy part - any controller can just keep the wastegates
closed.
> The real challenge is doing this without overboosting, and
that's
> where design counts (faster solonoids, etc.). Maybe the
AVC-R
> _does_ have that IDC-based anti-lean mechanism afterall...
?
>
<snip>
OK so lets do a survey. If I hear
everyone here correctly you cannot hold boost at 7k
RPM. So what can
you hold? After one day of tuning I can hold 12 psi at 6800 RPM
with
the Blitz DSBC. That's set to overboost to 15 psi then a steady 14
psi through 5500 RPM
then a pretty linear drop to 12 psi at 6800.
So what can the other boost controllers
do? If I remember everyone else
was dropping to 10 psi @ 6800 psi. Unfortunately it
looks like I will
have to work again this weekend so no time to see if I can get it up
to 14
psi @ 7000 RPM
So answer the following? All measurements in third
gear.
What kind of BC are you using?
What does it peak boost at?
What
is the steady state boost through 550 RPM?
What is the boost at 7000
RPM?
Mike C.
0018
'95 Stealth RT TT
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu
Oct 29 14:58:06 1998
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Identification of
the EU turbos
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 15:59:10 -0700
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With my old stock turbos, boost dropped to 11-12 PSI at
7000 RPM depending
upon the air temperature. It can get very hot here
in Phoenix. I have the
Apex'i SAVC-R.
This survey only applies
to stock turbos remember.
Regards,
Barry
>
-----Original Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Mike Chapleski
>
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 3:24 PM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification of
the EU turbos
>
> OK so lets do a survey. If I hear
everyone here correctly you
> cannot hold boost at 7k
> RPM.
So what can you hold? After one day of tuning I can hold
> 12 psi at
6800 RPM with
> the Blitz DSBC. That's set to overboost to 15 psi
then a steady
> 14 psi through 5500 RPM
> then a pretty linear drop
to 12 psi at 6800. So what can the
> other boost
controllers
> do? If I remember everyone else was dropping to 10 psi
@ 6800
> psi. Unfortunately it
> looks like I will have to
work again this weekend so no time to
> see if I can get it up
> to
14 psi @ 7000 RPM
>
> So answer the following? All
measurements in third gear.
> What kind of BC are you using?
> What
does it peak boost at?
> What is the steady state boost through 550
RPM?
> What is the boost at 7000 RPM?
>
>
>
> Mike
C.
> 0018
> '95 Stealth RT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info,
our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
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From: Chris Winkley
<cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To:
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: Boost Controller
study
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 16:27:15 -0800
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-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Chapleski
[SMTP:mike.chapleski@ibm.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 2:24 PM
To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification of the EU
turbos
<snip>
So answer the following? All
measurements in third gear, under WOT.
What kind of BC are you using?
What
does it peak boost at?
What is the steady state boost through 5500
RPM?
What is the boost at 7000 RPM?
<end of snip>
I added
"under WOT", corrected the 550rpm to 5500rpm.
GREAT idea Mike,
I hope we get some dry weather on the freeway this weekend so I can do
mine.
Looking forward...Chris
"Friends don't let friends ride
with me"
1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu
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From: Ken Middaugh
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snip
> I agree with your contention about the
DSBC. The reason Roger's turbos held
> boost better has to do with
the fact that he has 13Gs. I am yet to be
> convinced that the DSBC
is any better at holding boost to redline than say
> an AVC-R. I'd
have to see 15+ PSI in 2-4th at 7200 RPM on stock trubos to
> believe
it.
This can never happen since the cfm requirements of our 3.0 liter
engine at 15+ PSI at
7200 RPM exceeds the 9B's maximum cfm output
capability. The only way to fairly
compare boost hold capability
between BCs is to select a PSI that: 1) won't exceed the
given turbo's
maximum cfm at the test's maximum RPM; and 2) won't cause the car's
fuel
system (injectors, fuel pressure, and fuel management) capabilities to
be exceeded.
(There might be more test requirements too)
It is
possible that SAVC-R is using the injector duty cycle value in it's
algorithm.
At 16 PSI on stock turbos as RPM and IDC rise, the SAVC-R might be
lowering boost until
the IDC returns to a value that the algorithm deems
safe. Who knows? The DSBC's
algorithm may just keep the boost at
the set value or at the turbo's maximum cfm
output, whichever is lower.
Perhaps someone can disconnect the IDC wire on their
SAVC-R and see if it
changes the boost hold characteristics. Will it even work without
this
connection? One's opinion on which controller is the best might now
include the
risk they are willing to accept -- the SAVC-R might be safer if
it indeed uses the IDC
value in holding boost.
--
Ken
Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu
Oct 29 16:55:08 1998
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Barry E. King wrote:
> With my old stock turbos,
boost dropped to 11-12 PSI at 7000 RPM depending
> upon the air
temperature. It can get very hot here in Phoenix. I have the
>
Apex'i SAVC-R.
>
> This survey only applies to stock turbos
remember.
I just received my Super-Apexi via UPS today Barry...it
will be on stock turbos..so
somewhere down the road I can post on the
results. The damn photoradar here will make it
a bitch just finding room to
tune it...another tax grab!!! Anyway, if you have any
advice on instalation
or tweaking, please mail me on the side band...or for that matter,
do it here
for anyone else considering an Apexi.
I went with the group order on this
product incidentally because it was $430 including
shipping, which is far
below the price usally noted. Blitz was $450 plus shipping at
it's
cheapest discounted quote. I also thought there seemed to be a few
problems
occurring (likely unrelated) to Blitz equipped cars, and given all
information and
particularly the price, I went with a tiny tiny bit more
conservative : ) BC, which
seems to be saftey oriented towards
overboost.
Darc
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<HTML>
<P>Barry E. King
wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>With my old stock turbos, boost dropped to
11-12
PSI at 7000 RPM depending
<BR>upon the air
temperature. It can get very hot here in Phoenix.
I have
the
<BR>Apex'i SAVC-R.
<P>This survey only applies to
stock turbos remember.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>I just
received my Super-Apexi via UPS today Barry...it will be on stock
turbos..so
somewhere down the road I can post on the results. The damn
photoradar here
will make it a bitch just finding room to tune it...another
tax grab!!!
Anyway, if you have any advice on instalation or tweaking,
please mail me on
the side band...or for that matter, do it here for anyone
else considering an
Apexi.
<P>I went with the group order on this product incidentally
because it
was $430 <B>including</B> shipping, which is far below
the price usally
noted. Blitz was $450<B>
<U>plus</U></B> shipping at it's cheapest
discounted quote.
I also thought there seemed to be a few problems occurring
(likely unrelated)
to Blitz equipped cars, and given all information and
particularly the price,
I went with a tiny tiny bit more conservative :
) BC, which seems to be
saftey oriented towards
overboost.
<P>Darc</HTML>
--------------FFFB77599C62C65571637C26--
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu
Oct 29 17:06:48 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification of the EU turbos
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In a message dated 98-10-29 17:25:32 EST, you
write:
<< So answer the following? All measurements in third
gear.
What kind of BC are you using........Greddy Profec
What does it peak
boost at..............little over 20psi
What is the steady state boost
through 550 RPM....13-14psi
What is the boost at 7000
RPM.......10.5-11psi
When I had stock turbos and the greddy profec, I
usaully ran 1.1 or 1.15bar.
The boost would go up to around 16-16.5psi and
NEVER spike at all. I haven't
seen any other controllers that were so
dead-on accurate!
But learning the Profec can be a major pain in the
a**. Plus, with my 15G's
it would either learn and work, or learn and
not work. So it was a very iffy
controller (but when I first bought it
worked fine, so maybe pulling the
filters out of the vacuum lines ended up
being detrimental?).
At lower rpms, it would run a little past 20psi if I
turned it way up (only
did once or twice). Over around 5000rpms the
stock boost would fall from my
set 1.1/1.15bar and go 15psi, 14psi, 13psi,
12psi, then finally end up around
10.5-11psi by redline.
When I had
the stock downpipe and cats it would hold closer to 12psi
through
redline. With downpipe would fall to about 11psi by redline,
and with my
main-cat gutted or high-flow maybe as low as 10.5psi at
7000r's. I believe my
set-up/motor flowed so well no boost controller
would have held high boost. If
someone out there can hold 15psi through
redline with another boost
controller, my best guess would be they have a
resriction in their
intake/head/exhaust I didn't.. at least untill I see
their car is undoubtably
making more power via a few not-seen-yet 12.0's on
the stock turbos :).
That's my experience with the Profec A..
Mike
Mahaffey - '94 Stealth tt Best et: 11.6 Best mph: 120.7
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu
Oct 29 18:36:47 1998
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From: "Barry E. King"
<beking@home.com>
To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Identification of
the EU turbos
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:37:50 -0700
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Other than actual plumbing and wiring, which is rather
straight forward as
far as EVCs are concerned, there really is only one thing
that comes to
mind.
Some people claim that the solenoid makes too much
noise. I never
experienced this problem but it may be due to how I
installed it. I have
yet to hear what a noisy AVC-R solenoid sounds
like.
The SAVC-R comes with a rubber mat upon which the actuator solenoid
mounts.
I found some high density foam to use as additional sound
absorption
material. Dynamat or something along those lines should work
just fine. I
used two layers of this heavy foam rubber in addition to
the supplied mat.
The solenoid is mounted on the inner fender right near
where the stock
airbox would be (I had no airbox at the time).
Other
then that, make sure you cap off what needs to be capped off and keep
the
pressure bearing lines as short and straight as possible.
Also contrary
to reports by some, my experience with the Apex'i is that it
trains rather
well and fairly quickly. The only tricky part can be finding
a BADC
setting that works best with your particular setup. It would
appear
from the documentation that high IDC levels will not allow the
controller to
learn your boost curve. This may partically explain why
before the MASC I
had a hard time achieving 20 PSI. The AFC simly
wouldn't allow me to run
lean enough and I continually ran into very high
IDC. With the MASC IDC was
reduced (although still high at 92%)
compared to the AFC (which frequently
hit 99%) presumably because I was able
to tune away the excessively
rich
mixture.
Regards,
Barry
-----Original
Message-----
From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of
wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 5:53
PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification
of the EU turbos
Barry E. King wrote:
With my old stock
turbos, boost dropped to 11-12 PSI at 7000 RPM depending
upon the air
temperature. It can get very hot here in Phoenix. I have
the
Apex'i SAVC-R.
This survey only applies to stock turbos
remember.
I just received my Super-Apexi via UPS today Barry...it will be
on stock
turbos..so somewhere down the road I can post on the results. The
damn
photoradar here will make it a bitch just finding room to tune
it...another
tax grab!!! Anyway, if you have any advice on instalation or
tweaking,
please mail me on the side band...or for that matter, do it here
for anyone
else considering an Apexi.
I went with the group order on this
product incidentally because it was $430
including shipping, which is far
below the price usally noted. Blitz was
$450 plus shipping at it's
cheapest discounted quote. I also thought there
seemed to be a few problems
occurring (likely unrelated) to Blitz equipped
cars, and given all
information and particularly the price, I went with a
tiny tiny bit more
conservative : ) BC, which seems to be saftey oriented
towards
overboost.
Darc
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu
Oct 29 19:36:02 1998
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Barry E. King wrote about the SAVC-R installation
thusly : )
>
>
> Some people claim that the solenoid makes
too much noise. I never
> experienced this problem but it may be due
to how I installed it. I have
> yet to hear what a noisy AVC-R
solenoid sounds
like.
<snip>I have heard this as well...but yourself, Errin
(are you
listening ) and Jim, all indicate that theirs are not noisy. Perhaps it was
the
early generation of this AVC-R that was, and it was corrected
ASAP.
>
<snip>
>
> The SAVC-R comes with a rubber mat upon which the
actuator solenoid mounts.
> I found some high density foam to use as
additional sound absorption
> material. Dynamat or something along
those lines should work just fine. I
> used two layers of this heavy
foam rubber in addition to the supplied mat.
> The solenoid is mounted on
the inner fender right near where the stock
> airbox would be (I had no
airbox at the time).
Errin indicated he mounted his in an extra battery
mount and it worked well too. I can
do either and will likely take as much
time deciding where as it took me to buy the darn
thing.
Thanks for
the advise. Looking forward to the installation.
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu
Oct 29 21:32:49 1998
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Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 22:39:38
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From: Jeff Crabtree <wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com>
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Subject: Team3S: Up on blocks, but not in the front
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Well guys and
gals,
By the time most of you read this, my Stealth
will be classified as
my "second" car. I decided that
one car payment was just not enough.
I am going tomorrow morning to pick up
my new(pre-owned) '93 Jeep
Wrangler sport(the six cyl. of course...after
driving old girl for three
years I just don't think I could drive a 4-banger
around). And just in
case you're wondering, YES! it's red with a black
top so it matches the
stealth quite well. The Jeep will become my
primary mode of
transportation, and the stealth will go in the garage under a
cover. I
guess I won't be doing that engine re-build that I was talking about
a
while back for quite some time now. I'm not quitting the
list(s)
though. I really enjoy (most) of you guys and will stick
around. I
have joined the Jeep tech list though, which means that I'll
probably
have thousands of peices of mail to delete on a daily basis.
UGH!
My only wish is that I could have done this 4 years ago when the
stealth
only had 61,xxx miles on it. Now with 149,xxx, the car is
getting tired
and every major sysem on the car hase SOMETHING wrong with
it. Oh well,
I fully intend for my grandkids to beg me to borrow that
cool old red
car that runs on that outdated petroleum based fuel....and I'm
not
talking about the jeep.
-Jeff Crabtree
'91
R/T Turbo#499
'93 Jeep
YJ
St,
Louis, MO
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri
Oct 30 02:44:32 1998
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Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 02:44:29 -0800
To:
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From: Dave Allison
<dave@languys.com>
Subject: Team3S: Thunderhill
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Gentlemen,
This weekend I head north to Thunderhill
to battle the forces of evil.
Also known as my buddies, driving:
94
Mustang GT modded to hell with a
blower
http://www.abbate.org/Mustang/1994_mustang_gt.htm
a
semi-stock 98 Firebird
Formula
http://www.abbate.org/Firebird/1998.htm
and a 1995 BMW M3
Dinan (with an highly unskilled driver)
I'm fairly confident I can hold
my own against these cars on the twisty
course. Should I be particularly wary
of any of the above cars? There are
some serious bragging rights riding on
this race and it would pain me
greatly to lose to these
cornballs.
Whattya think? What mods are necessary and what order should I
approach
them? Any suggestions for tire pressures to address the understeer
issues?
I've already replaced my brake fluid this evening with Motul 600 to
remedy
the severe brake fade issues that cropped up last time.
I'm
open to any suggestions on how to set the car up to win on the track
this
weekend. HELP!
Dave Allison
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our
web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
From
owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Oct 30 03:45:16 1998
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Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 06:47:33
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From: "Theiss, Charles"
<charles.theiss@lmco.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Identification of the EU
turbos
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
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Reply-To: stealth-3000gt
I have a Profec and hold 17psi to
7000.
> ----------
> From: Mike
Chapleski[SMTP:mike.chapleski@ibm.net]
> Reply To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 5:23
PM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S:
Identification of the EU turbos
>
> > <snip>
>
>
> > > Therefore it is more clear why it holds boost up to the
redline. But
> don't
> > > forget Mikaels setup. His US-car
has the 9B and boost is also hold
> pretty well.
> >
> >
This I cannot figure out. I just plain don't see how one boost
>
> controller can maintain the specified boost pressure better than
>
> another. It seems to me that reaching the desired boost level
is
> > the easy part - any controller can just keep the wastegates
closed.
> > The real challenge is doing this without overboosting, and
that's
> > where design counts (faster solonoids, etc.). Maybe
the AVC-R
> > _does_ have that IDC-based anti-lean mechanism
afterall... ?
> >
>
> <snip>
>
> OK so
lets do a survey. If I hear everyone here correctly you cannot
hold
> boost at 7k
> RPM. So what can you hold? After
one day of tuning I can hold 12 psi at
> 6800 RPM with
> the Blitz
DSBC. That's set to overboost to 15 psi then a steady 14 psi
>
through 5500 RPM
> then a pretty linear drop to 12 psi at
6800. So what can the other boost
> controllers
>
do? If I remember everyone else was dropping to 10 psi @ 6800 psi.
>
Unfortunately it
> looks like I will have to work again this weekend so no
time to see if I
> can get it up
> to 14 psi @ 7000 RPM
>
> So answer the following? All measurements in third gear.
>
What kind of BC are you using?
> What does it peak boost at?
> What
is the steady state boost through 550 RPM?
> What is the boost at 7000
RPM?
>
>
>
> Mike C.
> 0018
> '95 Stealth
RT TT
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFrom
owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Oct 30 03:49:09 1998
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Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 06:51:35
-0500
From: "Theiss, Charles"
<charles.theiss@lmco.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Identification of the EU
turbos
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'"
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
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Disregard my earlier post as I have 13gs
.
> ----------
> From: Barry E.
King[SMTP:beking@home.com]
> Reply To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 5:59
PM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: RE: Team3S:
Identification of the EU turbos
>
> With my old stock turbos, boost
dropped to 11-12 PSI at 7000 RPM depending
> upon the air
temperature. It can get very hot here in Phoenix. I have
>
the
> Apex'i SAVC-R.
>
> This survey only applies to stock
turbos remember.
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
Barry
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> >
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Mike Chapleski
>
> Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 3:24 PM
> > To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> > Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification
of the EU turbos
> >
>
> > OK so lets do a
survey. If I hear everyone here correctly you
> > cannot hold
boost at 7k
> > RPM. So what can you hold? After one day of
tuning I can hold
> > 12 psi at 6800 RPM with
> > the Blitz
DSBC. That's set to overboost to 15 psi then a steady
> > 14 psi
through 5500 RPM
> > then a pretty linear drop to 12 psi at
6800. So what can the
> > other boost controllers
>
> do? If I remember everyone else was dropping to 10 psi @ 6800
>
> psi. Unfortunately it
> > looks like I will have to work
again this weekend so no time to
> > see if I can get it up
>
> to 14 psi @ 7000 RPM
> >
> > So answer the
following? All measurements in third gear.
> > What kind of BC
are you using?
> > What does it peak boost at?
> > What is the
steady state boost through 550 RPM?
> > What is the boost at 7000
RPM?
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike C.
> >
0018
> > '95 Stealth RT TT
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe
info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFrom
owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Oct 30 04:18:48 1998
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Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998
07:18:36 EST
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Cc:
Aso8@aol.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: Team3S: Engine
Flush
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stealth-3000gt
Along the same lines as an engine flush. On noisy or dirty
lifters
ubj: Noisy, Dirty Lifters & Cure.
Date: 9/30/98 7:01:13 AM
!!!First Boot!!!
From:
Aso8@aol.comReply-to:
stealth@starnet.netTo:
Stealth@starnet.netCC:
Aso8@aol.comLooks like a good time for a
repost.
This procedure worked for me.
Before you start this...If you did
not change your oil within the last 5000
miles to Mobil One 10W-30 and use
the Stock Factory Filter & you have a Turbo
car,
do it from now on.
I assume you have both a recent oil change within 5000 miles and a
recent
FACTORY oil filter. OK. If not, do that first.
1. Drain off and
replace one quart of oil with Marvel Mystery Oil available at
any large auto
parts chain store. Don't change Factory filter.
2. Drive it for 1000 miles.
Not hard runs. Get the revs up to about 3000 to
4500rpms
but don't kill
it. Just work the stuff in. Vary the revs.
3. Change oil and filter after
1000 miles as follows: Mobil One Extreme 0W-30
and a new Factory filter.
Ticking sound should be gone with this change but,
Your Not Done Yet...Drive
for another 500 miles with this oil change. Revs the
same way.
4. Now
after that 500 miles. Change the Oil and Filter again to the normal
Mobil One
10W-30 and a new factory filter. In really cold weather you can use
5W-30
too.
If dirty lifters or some gooey sludge was the problem it should be gone
and
quiet.
Oil is the blood of a turbo car. I change mine every 3000
miles.
Arty 91 VR-4
In a message dated 10/29/98 9:13:41 PM
!!!First Boot!!!, bf@bobforrest.com
writes:
<< Subj: Re: Team3S:
Engine Flush
Date: 10/29/98 9:13:41 PM !!!First Boot!!!
From:
bf@bobforrest.com (Bob Forrest)
Sender:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.comReply-to:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.comTo:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com-----Original
Message-----From: Dennis Moore <
stealth@kiva.net>
|hopefully you
all knew that already. If you need more info, I'll dig
out
|a URL at
the Department of Commerce with more details on this subject.
Please
do! I'm keeping a folder of 'candidates' for the FAQ; how to
flush (or
how not to...) belongs in the archives...
TIA,
Forrest
>>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFrom
owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Oct 30 09:14:33 1998
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Just as short appendix/correction to my posting yesterday
on Super
Apex-i......After reveiwing my corresponence I see that Jim DID
indicate
(rather than indicate to the contrary) that his solenoid made
some
noise,and he solved it by mounting it off of the firewall and next
to
his washer bottle. Was yours an early version of Apex-i
Jim?
Darc
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFrom
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Up on blocks, but not in
the front yard
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<3639430A.F799DD9F@sprintmail.com>
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Jeff Crabtree wrote:
> Well guys and
gals,
>
> By the time most of you read this,
my Stealth will be "classified" as
> my "second"
car.
<snip>
We can live with that as long as it's not "in the
classifieds" Jeff...cann't afford to
loose you here. Congrats on the
your second "Great American Sports car"
BTW.
<snip>
> My only wish is that I could have done this 4 years
ago when the stealth
> only had 61,xxx miles on it. Now with
149,xxx,
<snip>
So how many water pumps, timing belts, and tenseness does
this translate into?? Are we
talking someone who can do this servicing with
one hand and their eyes
closed?
<snip>
> the car is getting tired
> and every major sysem
on the car hase SOMETHING wrong with
it.
<snip>
Ehhhh....even Henry the 8th called for
his oldest pair
of (read beat up) shoes, on every occasion he could...and he had over 200
pairs.
Familiar comfort!
> Oh well,
> I fully intend for my
grandkids to beg me to borrow that cool old red
> car that runs on that
outdated petroleum based
fuel....
<snip>
I'm with you there, and I don't have grandkids...These are
the greatest cars to capture
my imagination since the Shelby Mustangs (sorry
Bob, the Mustangs) of the late 60's.
Darc
92 TT ....which like
yours will be up on the ramp for a bit (while I sort out this BC
installation
in my spare time.)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFrom
owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Oct 30 11:37:09 1998
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Date:
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From: Jim Matthews <
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Re: Team3S: RE: Boost Controller study
References:
<01BE0358.FE1A62A0.cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
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Chris Winkley wrote:
>
>
-----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Chapleski
[SMTP:mike.chapleski@ibm.net]
> Sent: Thursday, October 29,
1998 2:24 PM
> To:
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Identification of
the EU turbos
>
> <snip>
>
> So answer the
following? All measurements in third gear, under WOT.
> What kind of
BC are you using?
> What does it peak boost at?
> What is the steady
state boost through 5500 RPM?
> What is the boost at 7000 RPM?
>
> <end of snip>
>
> I added "under WOT",
corrected the 550rpm to 5500rpm.
>
> GREAT idea Mike, I hope we get
some dry weather on the freeway this weekend so I can do mine.
If we had
to wait for dry weather over here then you'd never
see our results.
:-| But what the hell is AWD/AWS for, anyway?!
I read Mike's mind and
experimented on the way home from work
this evening. Here are my rainy
results:
conditions: 7:30 pm, cold, wet, and dark
location: entering
Autobahn 3 North from A-66
BC: A'PEXi Super AVC-R 1.0 bar @ 72%
BADC
action: third gear, WOT
observations:
short overboost to
1.05 bar at 3000 RPM +/-
1.0 bar from 3000 RPM +/- to 6000 RPM
+/-
7000 RPM, IDC=99%, boost=.85 bar +/- (12.5 psi)
average
speed of traffic=85 mph
speed of invisible black Stealth=faster than
the above ;-)
-Jim
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de
(64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews***
3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.htmlJet
Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active
Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0
bar @ 70/84% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged
Wipers
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix
brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS
(so far): 166mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9
mph
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFrom
owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Oct 30 11:37:12 1998
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Date:
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From: Jim Matthews <
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Barry wrote:
>
> Some people
claim that the solenoid makes too much noise. I never
> experienced
this problem but it may be due to how I installed it. I have
> yet
to hear what a noisy AVC-R solenoid sounds like.
The solonoid is noisy,
plain and simple. But as long as you
mount it somewhere other than the
firewall, and as long as
proper sound dampening material is used (more than
just the
pitiful little rubber mat supplied with the controller and
the
sheet metal screws that transfer the sound right past it
anyway), this will
not be a problem. Extreme Motorsports
mounted mine on the firewall with
the sheet metal screws and
without even the supplied mat and it was
LOUD. In fact, it
was annoying to the point that my gas mileage
actually
improved over 1 mpg since I would try not to let the boost
rise
above 7 psi where it started to click! This only lasted
a short while
until I came to my senses and moved the thing
so that I could drive the car
like it was meant to be driven!
wce@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:
>
> Just as short appendix/correction to my posting yesterday on
Super
> Apex-i......After reveiwing my corresponence I see that Jim DID
indicate
> (rather than indicate to the contrary) that his solenoid made
some
> noise,and he solved it by mounting it off of the firewall and next
to
> his washer bottle. Was yours an early version of Apex-i
Jim?
Nope, I have the latest and greatest Super-AVC-R. And yes,
it
is currently professionally zip-tied to the washer fluid
resevoir!
Hmmm, maybe I should take pictures and post them to my web
site
so that you all could learn how to apply this technique to your
very
own cars... :-)
Barry wrote:
>
> Also contrary to reports
by some, my experience with the Apex'i is that it
> trains rather well and
fairly quickly. The only tricky part can be finding
> a BADC setting
that works best with your particular setup.
Yes, it does train very well,
as long as you don't use the
lock feature right away. At least that is
my experience.
If you change the boost or BADC setting (which sends
the
unit into learn mode) and immediately set the lock, it will
not learn
properly. Anyone else experience this? Seems
like A'PEXi has a
lot of undocumented features! :-) As far
as the BADC, the
trickiest part is just figuring out what
it really means. The solution:
don't bother. Just think
of it as an overshoot setting. The
higher the BADC, the
more the boost will spike above the boost setting.
Since
Roger's testing has shown that short duration spikes of
1.1 bar or
slightly more is nothing to worry about (as
long as the sustained boost
levels are kept under 1.05 bar
for a stock setup), there is a great degree of
flexibility
here. I have A mode set to 1.0 bar @ 70% or 72% BADC
and
B mode set to 1.05 bar @ 84% BADC. Spiking is not bad and
I've
had no problems in the year I've had this setup.
-Jim
--
Matthews
- Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de
(64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews***
3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.htmlJet
Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active
Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0
bar @ 70/84% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged
Wipers
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix
brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS
(so far): 166mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9
mph
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFrom
owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Oct 30 12:06:29 1998
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From: "Barry E. King"
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To: <
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Apex-i
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:07:43 -0700
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<
000d01be0440$f43b5620$0500a8c0@beast.kingdom.com>
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stealth-3000gt
As I suggested, and as you discovered, it won't be noisy
if properly
mounted.
Mount any rapidly fluctuating mechanical device
on the firewall without
adequate vibration dampening and it is bound to
transfer noise to the cabin.
I doubt the Apex'i solenoid is any noisier
than any other solenoid supplied
with other controllers. In all cases
of noisy solenoids with which I have
had first hand experience (not limited
to Apex'i), the solenoid was plain
and simply not properly
mounted.
Regards,
Barry
> -----Original
Message-----
> From:
owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
[
mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
Behalf Of Jim Matthews
> Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 12:42 PM
>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S:
Apex-i
>
>
> Barry wrote:
> >
> > Some
people claim that the solenoid makes too much noise. I never
> >
experienced this problem but it may be due to how I installed
> it.
I have
> > yet to hear what a noisy AVC-R solenoid sounds
like.
>
> The solonoid is noisy, plain and simple. But as long
as you
> mount it somewhere other than the firewall, and as long
as
> proper sound dampening material is used (more than just the
>
pitiful little rubber mat supplied with the controller and
> the sheet
metal screws that transfer the sound right past it
> anyway), this will
not be a problem. Extreme Motorsports
> mounted mine on the firewall
with the sheet metal screws and
> without even the supplied mat and it was
LOUD. In fact, it
> was annoying to the point that my gas mileage
actually
> improved over 1 mpg since I would try not to let the
boost
> rise above 7 psi where it started to click! This only
lasted
> a short while until I came to my senses and moved the
thing
> so that I could drive the car like it was meant to be
driven!
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFrom
owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Oct 30 17:58:22 1998
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Message-ID: <
01BE0447.F7522EE0.bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
From:
Bob Fontana <
bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To:
"'Stealth List'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Injector problem
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 20:57:53
-0500
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I hope somebody on the list has enough
experience to answer
this one. I got ready to put my fuel rail in and
noticed
that the plastic cap around the needle of the #2 injector
is
melted. The needle is covered, since once the plastic
melted, it
stretched itself over the needle. This has
probably been that way
since the injector was last
positioned (Delray Mitsubishi, April
1996). Dammit,
there's no END to the things that they screwed
up.
My question is -- can I buy the plastic caps that go over
the
needle separately or do I have to buy a new injector
(hence, a set of
6...can't break up a set, ya know).
Pissed,
-Bob Fontana
For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFrom
owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Oct 30 18:42:18 1998
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Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 18:40:22
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Injector
problem
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<01BE0447.F7522EE0.bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
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Bob;
Albeit unknown to yourself, your modest by
currently pissed ways, you have a stature
amoung the elite Stealth World(no
shit Sherlock!!) and should insist on a free cap. If
that fails perhaps you
should tell them that we (at least me) as a list will think ill,
if not speak
ill of them from this time on. After all, there is strength in numbers,
and
when they shit upon our elite, we will respond.
Darc
Bob
Fontana wrote:
> I hope somebody on the list has enough experience to
answer
> this one. I got ready to put my fuel rail in and
noticed
> that the plastic cap around the needle of the #2
injector
> is melted. The needle is covered, since once the
plastic
> melted, it stretched itself over the needle. This
has
> probably been that way since the injector was last
>
positioned (Delray Mitsubishi, April 1996). Dammit,
> there's no END
to the things that they screwed up.
>
> My question is -- can I buy
the plastic caps that go over
> the needle separately or do I have to buy
a new injector
> (hence, a set of 6...can't break up a set, ya
know).
>
> Pissed,
>
> -Bob Fontana
> For
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFor
subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htmFrom
owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Oct 30 21:43:48 1998
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From:
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To:
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Fw: owner info
requested/added database features
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 23:44:23
-0600
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FYI
-----Original Message-----
From: David Black
<dblack@groupworks.com>
To: stealth@starnet.net
<stealth@starnet.net>
Date: Friday, October 30, 1998 2:24
PM
Subject: owner info requested/added database features
Hi
everyone,
=20
If you didn't already know, I am maintaining a
Stealth/3000GT owners =
database on my website. Parham and Eric Lotter
have expressed interest =
in using this database on www.3si.org and
www.3000gt.com respectively.
=20
I have recently added many nice features
to search on the database. You =
can search by first or last name,
city, state, model type, model year, =
3siID, and modifications. For
example to search on all owners that have =
VR-4's, click the model year
checkbox and select VR-4. A list of owners =
whose info matches the
criteria you've specified will be generated.
=20
The database is on my
VR-4 page on my web-site at =
http://www.groupworks.com/people/dblack=20
If
you want your info added, either email me privately =
(dblack@groupworks.com)
or use the link on my VR-4 page. I've been =
having some ASP problems
and have temporarily setup a link for you to =
add your info to the database
by sending me an email.
=20
If you have tried to add your info by using
the link on my web-site, I =
must apologize that is hasn't worked exactly as
planned and your info =
was NOT added to the database. The problems are
being worked on when I =
have a few moments to spare at work.
=20
Let
me know what you guys think. All responses and suggestions are
=
welcomed. Thanks.
=20
Dave '95
VR-4
\\\|///
\ ~ ~
/
(\ @ @ /)
+---------o000--(_)--000o----------+
Dave Black
Software
Engineer
GroupWorks Technologies, Inc.
http://www.groupworks.com
dblack@groupworks.com
Home Page: =
http://www.groupworks.com/people/dblack/(847)
259-6400 Ext.
14
------=_NextPart_000_01A9_01BE045F.390B5200
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text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3
HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META
content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1
=
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3
=
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"'
name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY
bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000
size=3D2>FYI</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial
size=3D2><B>-----Original
=
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
</B>David Black
<<A=20
href=3D"mailto:dblack@groupworks.com">dblack@groupworks.com</A>><BR><B=
>To:=20
</B><A
href=3D"mailto:stealth@starnet.net">stealth@starnet.net</A>
=
<<A=20
href=3D"mailto:stealth@starnet.net">stealth@starnet.net</A>><BR><B>Dat=
e:=20
</B>Friday,
October 30, 1998 2:24 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>owner
info=20
requested/added database
features<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT
color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hi
everyone,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>If you didn't already know, I am maintaining a
=
Stealth/3000GT=20
owners database on my website. Parham and
Eric Lotter have =
expressed=20
interest in using this database on <A
=
href=3D"http://www.3si.org">www.3si.org</A>=20
and
<A
href=3D"http://www.3000gt.com">www.3000gt.com</A>=20
respectively.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I have recently added many nice =
features
to=20
search on the database. You can search by first or last name,
=
city, state,=20
model type, model year, 3siID, and
modifications. For example to =
search on=20
all owners that
have VR-4's, click the model year checkbox and select=20
VR-4. A
list of owners whose info matches the criteria you've =
specified=20
will
be generated.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000
size=3D2></FONT><FONT
color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The database is on my VR-4 page on =
my
web-site=20
at
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.groupworks.com/people/dblack">http://www.groupworks.co=
m/people/dblack</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
color=3D#000000
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
color=3D#000000 size=3D2>If you want your info added, either =
email
me=20
privately (<A =
href=3D"mailto:dblack@groupworks.com">dblack@groupworks.com</A>)
or=20
use the link on my VR-4 page. I've been having some ASP
problems =
and have=20
temporarily setup a link for you to add your info
to the database by =
sending me=20
an
email.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>If you have tried to add your info by using the link =
on
my=20
web-site, I must apologize that is hasn't worked exactly as planned and
=
your=20
info was NOT added to the database. The problems are
being worked =
on when=20
I have a few moments to spare at
work.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>Let me know what you guys think. All responses
=
and=20
suggestions are welcomed.
Thanks.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2>Dave '95 VR-4</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT
size=3D2></FONT><FONT
color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2><BR> =
&=
nbsp; =20
\\\|///<BR> &n=
bsp; &nb=
sp;=20
\
~
~=20
/<BR> &n=
bsp; =20
(\
@ @ /)<BR>+---------o000--(_)--000o----------+<BR>Dave
=
Black<BR>Software=20
Engineer<BR>GroupWorks Technologies,
Inc.
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.groupworks.com">http://www.groupworks.com</A><BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:dblack@groupworks.com">dblack@groupworks.com</A> &nbs=
p; =20
Home
Page:
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.groupworks.com/people/dblack/">http://www.groupworks.c=
om/people/dblack/</A><BR>(847)=20
259-6400
Ext.
14</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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