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"R.G." wrote:
>
> This makes me thinking. As far as I remember, the dyno was set to the "loss
> measuring mode" (or something like that) and the operator drove the car in
> 4th gear up to about 6k and the left off the gas. The computer then drawed
> the curve. To be honest, I can't remember if he pressed the clutch then,
> switched to neutral or left it in fourth. If i recall correctly it was the
> later.

I think he pressed in the clutch and took it out of gear. Maybe Mike
will remember for sure. Or you could call the guy...

--
Jim Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews

*** 3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 72% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Blitz Blow-Off Valve
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, Top Speed: 168mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
1 Feb 99 Dyno Session: 406 SAE HP, 354 lb-ft torque


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Subject: Re: Team3S: Exhaust Upgrade = Power? (pt.1)
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Roger and others,

I really wanted to avoid getting into this argument (which is why I
posted it only on Starnet), as I feel that there is still severe lack
of widely gathered data in this matter. The only dyno experiences
we have on hand are either from Digit Power and from UPRD, a
brand new dyno shop and the first awd dyno shop in the states
(which immediately makes me skeptical of its accuracy). Also, I
don't want to spend too much time in this argument, as there is still
plenty of room for strict opinion in this matter. It is simply my
opinion that a freer-flowing exhaust system leads to power increases
for a VR4, and I feel that no one has yet provided convincing and
conclusive dyno data which shows otherwise. I will try to be brief.

This is my response to Roger's response to Dave Allison's
response to my original post (actually a response to Erik Gross).


Dave Allison wrote (all preceded by >>):

> >Hmmmm... I seem to recall the old HKS vehicle chart for the 91-93 3000GT
> >VR-4 going something like this:
> >
> >1991 to 93 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4/Dodge Stealth R/T Turbo
> >
> >Stock (300 hp @ 9 psi)
> >
> >Stage 1 (323 hp @ 9.5 psi)
> >Turbo Exhaust System
> >
> >Stage 2 (337 hp @ 10 psi)
> >Super Power Flow Air Filter

Roger Gerl responded (all preceded by >):

> Haha, this is the known HKS joke. Why do they tell that adding an exhaust
> increases the boost ????? Also assuming this, 1 psi gives you 37hp.
> Therefore running 15 psi of boost will result in 185hp -> 485hp ... yes,
> sure and I'm the King of Mars!

Roger, you misunderstand. There is no reason to claim rulership
over planets in order to demonstrate how little you believe in HKS's
claims. :-) What you misunderstand is that the horsepower gains
they claim arise from the exhaust system and air filter upgrades. The
slight increases in boost pressure are actually side effects from adding
these mods. I noticed I was getting about 1-1.5 psi more boost
(measured on a boost gauge) aftter adding the K&N filter and exhaust
w/o a boost controller. This slight increase in boost pressure is common
and not difficult to understand, yet it does not account for much of the
power increases.

> >the dyno to the tune of 226.9 wheel hp. Using the 42% loss equation we now
> >see 390 flywheel hp!
>
> Wheel hp measured and the loss look very odd !

And that is because he has been working backwards from poor dyno
numbers measured at the same shop which where he measured poor
dyno numbers. UPRD dynos lousy numbers for a Subaru, but he then
says that it must be making such-and-such flywheel hp because the
Subaru brochure says so, and thus there must be 42% drivetrain loss,
which is simply outlandish. Dave seemed to miss my point in the last
post that these dyno numbers for his car and this car are plain lousy and
cannot be taken seriously without seriously calling into question whether
or not air flow (and cooling) demands are being sufficiently addressed.
If a quack doctor tells a bunch of people that they have cancer, they
shouldn't be finding comfort in their common plight. Rather they should
question the validity of that doctor's opinion.

> So how do you explain that three cars had the very same dyno results with
> two cars had aftermarket exhausts and one was stock besides a K&N and boost
> controller (regapped plugs) ? And also note that the car with the best power
> WAS THE ONE WITH STOCK EXHAUST :) Mine had the highest torque

> curve due to the 13Gs

As Barry King fluently pointed out, you simply cannot make universal
inferences (re: exhaust gains/losses) based on your dyno ~comparison~
among these cars. The only test which would be valid would have been
dynoing one car with stock exhaust, and then on the same day removing
the exhaust system and gutting the precats and re-dynoing that car.
Period. Yet in addition, the airflow issues must still be addressed, and
in my opinion your reasoning towards the airflow issue is flawed (see pt.2).
The airflow issues even becomes more important for an exhaust-modified
car, if said modification indeed brings about an increase in power and
a slight increase in boost pressure.

> Therefore one would assume that
> reducing the backpressure increases the efficiency. One positive side effect
> is that the discharge temperature is also be lower. Unfortunately our
> measurements did not show any difference :(

The only measurements which would have actually shown this would
have been measurements of the ~same~ car, with and without the
stock exhaust and precats.

> So what does the cat-back exhaust do performance wise ? It's weight and a
> better spool-up of the turbos between shifting. Therefore a real gain in the
> 1/4 mile can be found, but as said, it doesn't d give you more horses !

TD04-9B spool-up is hardly an issue during 1/4 mile runs, except maybe
to some degree in your launch (in which case the effect on trapspeeds
is still negligible). We launch our cars at high rpms and we shift them
with partial or full throttle at redline. The turbos are well-spooled the
whole way. Spool-up is only an issue for low-speed daily driving or
off-the-cuff highway roll-ons from lower rpms. Try flooring your car
out of 5000rpms, and see if you think that spool-up is an issue there.

> I spoke with several dyno-owners here in Switzerland and they told me that
> they found a loss of 20-30% on AWD cars and 12-18% on 2WD cars.

This would only show that on average AWD cars have about 60%
more drivetrain losses than their RWD counterparts. This argument
came up before, regarding their method for estimating flywheel hp, but
it is simply my opinion that the only way to achieve an accurate figure
is to dyno hp at the wheels and then remove the engine to measure
bhp at the flywheel. I feel the same way about the G-Tech. It's fine
for making comparisons for the same car (e.g. before and after some
modification), but it is not well-suite for comparisons across different cars.

> I'll be on the dyno pretty soon to tune in the water injection. I currently
> have the full stock exhaust back on the car and we'll first find the
> detonation point before tuning in the WI. This will gives us a good sheet to
> compare then.

I am eagerly awaiting these results. :)

This concludes my response to the Dave Allison/Roger Gerl post.
My next post (pt. 2) addresses Roger's reponse to my own post.

Stay tuned,

--Errin Humphrey
Seattle, WA
UW undergrad
94 VR4


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Roger and others,

This is my response to Roger's response to my original post (which
had been quoted by Dave Allison in his reponse to me).


Errin Humphrey wrote (all preceded by >>):

>> The general rule of thumb is that for each mph
>> you gain in the 1/4 corresponds to an increase of approximately 10rwhp.

Roger Gerl responded (all preceded by >):

>This is the typical misleading from the earlier years. This because every-
>thing is based on NA, nitrous or SC cars but not on turbo charged cars.
>The big problems on turbo cars is the lag on the system and we cannot
>eliminate it. Here a better flowing exhaust helps (as well a BOV may be
>able to do)

Unfortunately for your case, you are wrong here. If this were true,
then I wouldn't have seen so many Supra owners dyno their cars and
then run their cars at the track leading to increases in trapspeeds which
almost ALWAYS corresponded to the above approximation (within
acceptable variance). I was on the Supra list for about a year and saw
this confirmed time and time again, and I also learned a lot about the
need for ~proper~ dynoing procedures as well the importance of
getting a second "opinion" (i.e. don't just keep going to the same dyno).
And I've talked to a few RX7 and 300ZX guys who have noticed the
same thing. Simply put: I have heard of plenty of turbo cars who have
seen their trapspeeds increase along with dyno'd horsepower in
accordance with the above approximation. Furthermore, as I said earlier,
the spool-up issue is a ~non-issue~ in dragracing our cars. It certainly
isn't important enough to explain throw out the above formula. [Since
you have referred to both lag and spool-up, which are somewhat different,
I'm just ignoring the difference and discussing them as the same].

I still have yet to hear an adequate response which explains why our
trapspeeds would increase with only exhaust mods. It is unfortunate
that you have not made any runs at the track, and this seems to be
the dividing line between us. Allow me to approach the issue from a
different direction, in light of your recent attempy to explain away the
increase in trapspeeds which we have measured.

Mike Mahaffey posted to Starnet:

>However, when I installed my Borla exhuast, I went from consistent
>13.4's at 101mph to consistant 13.1's at 103mph. Statistically, that
>would show a gain over 20hp on my car..

So Mike gains 2mph in the 1/4 mile after only adding a Borla. (I got
about 3-4mph after doing full exhaust/dp/precats). Now, your opinion
that the above dragger's approximation is inapplicable to turbocharged
cars says the following: Mike's gain of ~2mph does NOT really correspond
to a gain of 20hp but rather some number far less, say 2hp (since you
are always claiming "NO GAINS" based on your dyno figures). Now
what is your explanation for this idea? You say that it is because turbo
cars have "lag on the system and we cannot eliminate it." Huh? That
goes entirely against your position. To say that lag is a problematic char-
acteristic for turbocharged cars is to say that a gain of 2mph in the 1/4-mile
should correspond to MORE horsepower gained, relative to "NA, nitrous
or SC cars." That simply makes no sense at all. There would have to
be some ~huge~ advantageous factor which he have not yet discovered
which would make turbocharged cars able to gain increases in trapspeeds
much easier than cars which use other methods of forced induction. That
is a claim which requires a LOT of explanation.

So your explanation that "lag" is the reason why exhaust mods add no
hp, or the auxiliary assumption that lag is a problem on the dyno but less
problematic in the real world, does not help your case. It hurts it. It
would tell us that for turbocharged cars the equation should actually say
something like, 1mph = ~25hp, in order to take lag into account (whether
in general, or only on the dyno). If there is truly a handicap which has
been hurting turbocharged cars on the dyno, it is most likely what I have
been trying to tell you all along: insufficient airflow/air-cooling, and that
just tells the following: *That in the ~real-world~ our cars are making
much more power, and exhaust mods are able to bring about net gains.
This could easily explain the dichotomy between our experiences.

>I do not like if someone just says "exhaust". This because we have :
>- pre-cats
>- downpipe
>- main cat
>- cat-back (piping, muffler)

Fine. We'll just let "exhaust" mean the whole deal, all of the above. I have
no problem with that, especially since you and Mike both had the whole
works for your dyno tests. If others (such as Mike M.) have seen increases
in trapspeeds with only catback, etc., then it only works to my favor. :)

>Therefore we must be careful on what we are talking about. And the
>dyno sheets show that changing the cat-back, removing the main cat
>and replacing the dp didn't helped anything. As measured on the same
>dyno, same day with same environment we can say that this is fact !

On different cars, and that is a fact! :) Roger, you made dyno runs with
your car and you ~didn't even have proper tires on the car~! You had
snow tires which were melting on the rollers. There are a tons of other
factors which you did not address in your comparisons. For instance,
engine compression tests, miles on the cars, age of spark plugs, Mike
was on stock BPV, most recent tuneup, Jim's is '94 wheares Mike's
is '95 (w/ OBDII), and the list goes on. Again, you cannot take a test
like this and make ~universal~ inferences about ALL 3000GT's. It is
going to take a ~lot~ more than this to convince me of your claims, as
well as an explanation for my own (and other's) experiences at the track.

>> The problem with the dyno runs is their very nature. Automobiles
>> were not designed to make high power while sitting still. They were
>> designed to make high power at speeds which provide massive airflow
>> which is nearly impossible to reproduce in a dyno shop.

>And this is why the hood is kept open during the dyno and there is no
>air-resistance (dunno the right word). And as the massive air resitance is
>not calcuated in any power formula it is more accurate on the dyno.

Roger, with all due respect, you are so wrong here that I am almost at
a loss for words. What you are essentially saying is that since there is
no air-resistance the car will not have to work as hard, and thus there is
no need to worry about your car's airflow needs. If the dyno technician
fed you this B.S. I would personally never show my face there again.

>From simple physics, the fact of the matter is that an automobile (esp.
a turbocharged one) requires a ~load~ on the drivetrain in order to
produce significant horsepower. Your car will make almost no hp if
your wheels are lifted off of the ground, just as it takes very little hp
to maintain constant highway speeds. And the fact of the matter is that
aerodynamic resistance is functionally equivalent to frictional resistance
from the road, as far as your vehicle's need to produce torque at the
wheels is concerned. Now, just because the dyno rollers don't (as far
as I know) attempt to emulate the additional aerodynamic resistance
does NOT mean that its airflow requirements are somehow reduced
as a result of the decreased load. In fact, if the rollers don't provide
enough resistance, your dyno figures will not be representative of real-
world horsepower (which would be higher). But the fact of the matter
remains that reduced load on the car has almost ~nothing~ to do with
whether or not airflow requirements (esp. to the I/C's) are being met.

Think of it this way: What would you rather do? Run 10 miles up a
hill in 15°C weather with plenty of cool water to drink OR run 10 miles
on a treadmill in a 35°C room with only an occasional mist of warm
water sprayed on your face? Maybe neither sound very appealing :)
but you can see that in the second case less is being asked of you, yet
conditions are much less favorable. You ~cannot~ assume that the two
issues will always necessarily cancel each other out.

Also, what you said about air resistance not being calculated in power
formulas is simply not true. You are probably basing this statement on
people having said that the G-Tech doesn't take aerodynamics into
account and that is why figures often differ from real track data, yet this
is not true either. The truth is that all power formulas and the G-Tech do
take aerodynamic resistance into account, BUT they only make certain
assumptions about it. They include factors which would apply to an
average car under average ambient conditions. If they didn't, the basic
mph to hp estimate formula would give you hp figures probably less than
half of what they actually are. The way in which these formulas take air
resistance into account isn't beyond comprehension, but it does involve
some nasty integrations.

>The only drawback is the less cooling on the ICs and therefore the less
>power due to the less dense. But an earlier test showed that on my car
>this made only a difference of about 2.5 hp with the fan switched off. Also
>our ambient temperature on February was 10°C in the dyno room and
>therefore air was dense enough.

Turning the fan on and off told you ~nothing~ about whether or not
there was sufficient airflow for your intercoolers to be efficiently working
at all. Of course, at certain highway speeds there will be excess airflow
for your intercoolers to work sufficiently, but you cannot simply assume
that the fan provided anywhere near this level, and all Supra dyno-ers
have reported that a fan by itself is never sufficient.

>> I have several times suggested that this must be the prime reason why
>> Roger and the others were noticing tons of knock (from detonation)
>> when dynoing their cars. This is greatly exacerbated when you make [snip]

>No, this is not really true although your theory is very right. I had my car
>on the dyno 5 times with the oil temperature measured. It never went higher
>than 112°C (usually stayed below 100°C) compared to a 300ZX TT with
>temps of up to 160°C and the Supra with 143°C. Also the water temperature
>never ever moved a little and therefore was not a problem. I thought that on
>one Stealth it was moving just a very little but negligible.

That's fine in regards to whether or not the engine was overheating, but
it says nothing about whether there was sufficient airflow to provide an
adequte amount of fresh cool air for the intake as well as enough airflow
to make the intercoolers efficient. You need intake air temp measurements
to address this issue, not oil and water temps, and they should be compared
to temps of when the car is on the road, not to the temps of other cars that
are in the shop. Also, it seems presumptuous to put so much faith in the
accuracy of measurements made by just one instrument, and then make
such universal statements as you have.

Another thing about the dangers of overheating on the dyno (and whether
there is truly adequate airflow). After your engine blew while on the dyno,
you posted the following under the heading "Dyno Session 2 ... problems !":

>I currently don't know what the problem is and I'm also not sure about the
>theory. Anybody has another idea or already runned into the same problems?
>BTW, oil temp was max. 208.4°F, water temp ok and oil pressure good
>(was somewhat high at the beginning of this week)

Just something to think about.... Even though the damage might have
started on the highway, your engine was running until you put it on the dyno.

>> And keep in mind that when sufficient knock is present, the computer will
>> drastically retard the timing thus leading to huge decreases in power (esp.
>> for a free-flowing exhaust car which is demanding more air).

>Well, in a turbo system the turbos themselfes are a restriction as this is
>how the system works. As described before (pressure difference) a free
>flow exhaust helps to improve efficiency and the pressure before the
>turbos is what counts.

Of course, but you haven't addressed the intercooler issue. On many
cars which add aftermarket turbos/SC I often hear different psi limits
past which an intercooler is a necessity to avoid engine damage. It is
seldom above 10psi, and yet there you guys were at Digit Power with
your cars on the dyno running 0.9-1.0+ bar with the possibility that there
was ~not~ sufficient airflow to ~both~ of your intercoolers (the fan may
not have been large enough, and you did not ice them) that you may as
well have NOT had intercoolers. That is a ~bad~ thing, and I have
continued to remind you (and Dave, Mikael) about it for your own good.
I feel really bad when I hear about another blown engine or lousy dyno
results (esp. like Mikael who did no icing procedures).

>But of course more pressure then can also cause some temperature
>and backpressure problems. You are right about the detonation/knock
>but I had the same knock at 15+ psi also on the road.

Have you yet confirmed that Euro-VR4's have larger stock injectors and
fuel pump to be properly matched to the 13G's? Otherwise, you can't
use this to discount detonation on the dyno.

>> Roger actually blew his engine while on the dyno, but he blames it on
>> his extended 170mph Autobahn runs . . .]

>No, my engine blew during my ignorance after I installed the boost
>controller during my G-Tech sessions. During the Autobahn runs the
>knock was then hearable and the oil steam comming out of the BOV
>was very visible :( I did the 174mph with the engine already in a bad
>shape and I'm sure the other rings then finally went south.

What about the possibility that your older dyno runs (esp. at high boost)
started the damage, your Autobahn runs exacerbated it, and your next
dyno runs (Session 2) were the final blow to your engine?

>> Most dyno shops have fans, but any competent dyno technician can tell
>> you that this is nowhere near the amount of air that is flowing when your
>> car is moving at just 60mph. Stick your hand out the window on the
>> freeway some time to find out.

>And exactly here you'll learn how much power it takes to get through this
>resistance. I think that this is definitely not a negligible amount. Finally, less
>cooling but no air drag may give you close numbers for street and dyno.

And as I explained earlier, this line of reasoning is flawed. Reducing the
load on a car reduces its difficulty in performing certain levels of accel-
eration, but it does not necessarily reduce its demand for air (esp. for
cool air at high boost) by some sort of 1:1 ratio. In other words, you are
making a MAJOR unjustified assumption when you say that no air drag
will completely cancel out the lack of cooling and sufficient airflow.

>> When I was on the Supra list I learned that most of them get lousy dyno
>> numbers unless they take every possible measure to attempt to simulate
>> the airflow of higher speeds. This includes icing the intercoolers, icing the
>> engine, icing all the piping, and making sure that you have the biggest
>> damn fan on the planet blowing at the front of your car.

>You know that the Supras have tiny IC stuff and are getting pretty hot very
>quick. Upon our experience this is not a real problem on our cars, at least
>not in the 15psi area !

Unless, of course, the sensitivity of your measuring equipment differs at
all from your car's stock knock sensor. Furthermore, just because you
found that 1.05 bar is the right where detonation starts on the dyno, that
does not mean that it was good for your car to be running "on the edge"
of detonation, and it says little about what happens in the real world.

>If you say that this statement is wrong, then please explain why three cars
>with different exhaust haven't seen a difference in power and the one with
>the stock exhaust showed the highest figure. Please note that the three cars
>have been tested at the same dyno on the same morning with the same
>temperatures, etc.

They were different cars. Way too many variables still unaccounted for.
And in addition, your car should have been immediately factored out as
a result of it's being a Euro-Vr4 with larger turbos, yet still no confirmation
as to whether it received upgraded fuel components. Also, there was
that little issue about the snow tires.

>> If that were the case then we would never see increases in trapspeeds
>> after upgrading exhaust, regardless of the fact that the "1mph = 10hp"
>> dragger's rule is just an estimate.

>As said this belongs not to turbo charged engines. It would with eliminated
>lag ! Also reduced weight can be counted in although this is maybe not that
>much.

I would really like to hear an explanation as to how "lag" is what causes
1mph to instead = 0hp, whereas with other cars (na, nos, sc) which don't
have lag it takes them 10hp to achieve this. The reduced weight is certainly
not enough to account for the differences.

>> And furthermore I am too pessimistic about the airflow problems with
>> their dyno runs. I am more than willing to accept that one day they might
>> get the airflow issue straightened out and "prove" that a freer-flowing
>> exhaust doesn't provide power gains (which in itself makes no sense for
>> a turbocharged car)

>I always thought that I'm the most sceptical one on the small blue ball,
>hehe. But as I'm skeptical and only believe in what I say and what I get I'd
>ask you for the technical background with the formulas behind your last
>sentence.

I don't have to bother because I can just quote from your own posts. :)

You wrote:

>As the pressure difference between in front the turbo and afterwards
>causes the turbine to spool, a larger difference makes them more efficient.
>Therefore one would assume that reducing the backpressure increases the
>efficiency. One positive side effect is that the discharge temperature is also
be lower. Unfortunately our measurements did not show any difference :(

So in principle you realize why ff-exhaust should make a difference in
power, but your dyno measurements did not confirm this. The whole time
I have been trying to remind you of airflow, cooling, detonation issues
as well as the danger of making too many generalizations from only a
couple cars with too many variables present.

>As there was no real airflow issue on our dyno session (it was
>once an issue on a dyno with 33°C ambient temp.) I'm positive that the
>air-resistance will be a higher issue on the street.

Yes, but air resistance is just another resistive force (like frictional force
with the road due to your car's weight) which the torque at your wheels
must overcome. Eliminating this extra load does not mean that your car's
airflow needs will be magically reduced by the same amount.

>With the datalogger I can now log the detonation on the street and on the
>dyno. Therefore we'll be able to compare the data then, including intake
>temperature, timing, etc. Also I'll record boost and intake temperature with
>my own tool as well and try to bring the stuff together later.

Sounds great! I'm sure this will shed MUCH light on the issue. Even
with the whole exhaust issue aside (and if further tests show I am wrong),
I just really want to encourage you and other dynoers to really go the
extra mile (w/ icing techniques, etc.) when you dyno your cars. Putting
your car on the dyno is, in my opinion, on of the harshest things you can
put your car through. I will truly feel bad if you or anyone else blows
an engine again.

It has been a pleasure discussing this with you. :)

Highest regards,

--Errin Humphrey
Seattle, WA
UW undergrad
94 VR4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 1 21:16:01 1999
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From: "Matt Jannusch" <mattj@fallon.com>
To: "3/S Sirius Mailing List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Exhaust Upgrade = Power? (pt.2)
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> >As said this belongs not to turbo charged engines. It would with
> >eliminated lag ! Also reduced weight can be counted in although
> > this is maybe not that much.

> I would really like to hear an explanation as to how "lag" is what causes
> 1mph to instead = 0hp, whereas with other cars (na, nos, sc) which don't
> have lag it takes them 10hp to achieve this. The reduced weight
> is certainly not enough to account for the differences.

I'd also like to know how this works. It would seem to me that if we are
looking at a figure that is generally accepted for a NA car (.1 second = 10
hp), and we have turbo lag and a higher drivetrain loss, then the figure
should be even higher for us as we are applying the additional thrust to the
car later down the dragstrip and have to make up that .1 second in less
distance. So in my line of thinking for a turbo car with significant lag
(which I don't feel our cars have in the first place - not significant lag
anyway) and higher drivetrain losses - .1 second would equal perhaps 12-14
hp.

(I probably should've quoted from the previous e-mails for the next two
sections, but I already deleted the relevent sections)

I also disagree with drawing any generalizations about horsepower increases
caused by certain modifications when the testing isn't even done on the same
car. No two cars are going to dyno identically, even under the same
conditions.

I also agree that running your car on a dyno without proper airflow
*through* the intercoolers, (not just a fan pointing in their general
direction, but actually ducting air through them so the air doesn't just go
around the intercooler edges) is likely to cause serious damage to your
motor. The engine system on these cars is engineered as a unit, designed to
have the intercoolers cooling the intake charge a vast amount under the
temperature the turbos are spewing out. To make the intercoolers not do
their job by not flowing large amounts of air through them is going to cause
a large amount of knock initially, and detonation if the charge temps don't
drop. This is a very bad thing, not only because the dyno results will be
inconclusive (since the car is not being run under normal conditions), but
because engine damage is a high probability.

I wouldn't run my car on a dyno without proper intercooling... Ouch! If
you don't think the intercoolers matter, you might as well take them off and
save the weight.

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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Subject: RE: Team3S: Exhaust Upgrade = Power? (pt.2)
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of
> Errin Humphrey
> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 17:10
> To: 3/S Sirius Mailing List; R.G.
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Exhaust Upgrade = Power? (pt.2)
>
> Turning the fan on and off told you ~nothing~ about whether or not
> there was sufficient airflow for your intercoolers to be
> efficiently working
> at all. Of course, at certain highway speeds there will be
> excess airflow
> for your intercoolers to work sufficiently, but you cannot
> simply assume
> that the fan provided anywhere near this level, and all Supra dyno-ers
> have reported that a fan by itself is never sufficient.


Wouldn't it be simple enough to put a temp probe in the Y-pipe just before
the throttle body to measure intake temps while driving and on the dyno.
The comparison should let you know how well the fans are working.

Michael

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 1 22:10:29 1999
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Michael wrote:
>
> Wouldn't it be simple enough to put a temp probe in the Y-pipe just before
> the throttle body to measure intake temps while driving and on the dyno.
> The comparison should let you know how well the fans are working.

Which, in fact, is exactly what we did, as is described both on both my
page and Roger's page. I've been away for the past month and must
assume that I missed most of this discussion, but from the last few
Emails it seems clear that the information we have out there was not
carefully read or that it was confused by recent posts (our dyno runs
were not performed at Digit Power, intake charge temps and AFR were
monitored, etc.).

While everyone would agree that a ideal testing would involve a single
car with dyno sessions between mods and sufficient cool-down periods,
this is probably not feasible. I think we performed our tests about as
well as could be expected and documented them as best as we could. If
you disagree with our analyses, then that's open for discussion - to my
knowledge there has never been such a test/comparison made before and we
did our best to interpret the results. I hope you agree that our
[somewhat expensive] testing benefitted the community and that lessons
learned (and new mods/equipment) will make subsequent tests that much
more informative.

--
Jim Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews

*** 3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 72% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Blitz Blow-Off Valve
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, Top Speed: 168mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
1 Feb 99 Dyno Session: 406 SAE HP, 354 lb-ft torque

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 2 01:38:06 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "'3/S Sirius Mailing List'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Exhaust Upgrade = Power?
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Thanks Jim for stepping in.

Over the last conversation (a huge one) there were a lot interprations of
"what you say means ...". This lead us maybe into a wrong way and reading
the information on our homepages is very important if we want to discuss.
Errin did this already but there are some points I have to clarify for sure
(out of the huge post).

As Errin splitted up his messages it takes somewhat long until I finish up
all the answers ;-)

Here a short wrap-up on my statements we are still discussing :

- a cat-back replacement does not give you more peak hp nor torque
- a cat-back may improve et's and mph due to the different power curve and
less of weight
- a full exhaust upgrade will change the curves as well as will give you
increase in peak values. This means that removing the pre-cats is what the
rest of the exhaust makes really working.
- on a track there are much more external variables (driver, clutch,
aero.resist., weight, etc.) than on a dyno

- the small fans on a dyno are a problem on hot ambient temperatures for
sure ! With an open hood, an ambient temp of max 9°C we are getting intake
temperatures like on road at 20°C with closed hood (sucking warm air in).
This was told by the dyno guy at this day and I checked this with two other
dynos in my region.

- 0.1 second = 10hp gain -> replacing the hood, and shaving other weight
gives you 10hp; interesting !

I totally agree with you guys saying that measuring three cars on a dyno is
not compareable. Interestingly enough the cars showed the very same
characteristics in their curve and if Mikes car had a little bit more boost
it would have shown the very same curve as Jim's car. The difference of the
dp/cat-back then would maybe be show a better power curve after the peak
(5500-5700)

More precise stuff will be found in the mega-huge message tonight (I'm at
50% right now)

Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT


>> Wouldn't it be simple enough to put a temp probe in the Y-pipe just
before
>> the throttle body to measure intake temps while driving and on the dyno.
>> The comparison should let you know how well the fans are working.
>
>Which, in fact, is exactly what we did, as is described both on both my
>page and Roger's page. I've been away for the past month and must
>assume that I missed most of this discussion, but from the last few
>Emails it seems clear that the information we have out there was not
>carefully read or that it was confused by recent posts (our dyno runs
>were not performed at Digit Power, intake charge temps and AFR were
>monitored, etc.).


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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To: "3/S Sirius Mailing List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Exhaust Upgrade = Power? (pt.2)
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>> I would really like to hear an explanation as to how "lag" is what causes
>> 1mph to instead = 0hp, whereas with other cars (na, nos, sc) which don't
>> have lag it takes them 10hp to achieve this. The reduced weight
>> is certainly not enough to account for the differences.
>
>I'd also like to know how this works.

Less backpressure causes the turbos working better i.e. better response,
etc. This together with the less weight and a changed power/tourque curve
might be able to give you the increase in mph and the better et's. No higher
peak hp/torque :(

>I also disagree with drawing any generalizations about horsepower increases
>caused by certain modifications when the testing isn't even done on the
same
>car. No two cars are going to dyno identically, even under the same
>conditions.

Not identically for sure, but close !

>I also agree that running your car on a dyno without proper airflow
>*through* the intercoolers, (not just a fan pointing in their general
>direction, but actually ducting air through them so the air doesn't just go
>around the intercooler edges) is likely to cause serious damage to your
>motor. The engine system on these cars is engineered as a unit, designed
to
>have the intercoolers cooling the intake charge a vast amount under the
>temperature the turbos are spewing out.

The ambient temperatures were low enough and we compensated this with the
open hood. This was like runnign the car on 20°C on the street with closed
hood and hot engine.

> If you don't think the intercoolers matter, you might as well take them
off and
>save the weight.

Matt, I guess that you didn't meant this last statement seriously as we are
old enough to understand what cooling mean ! It's not necessary to bring
such things up again.

For more please check out the message I'm gonna send tonight. Please have
some patience as writing down the arguments not in my first language takes a
lot longer for me:)

Roger
93'3000GT TT

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"R.G." wrote:
>
> - a cat-back may improve et's and mph due to the different power curve and
> less of weight

Agreed. Drag racing involves running at high-RPM the entire time, where
a freer-flowing exhaust (ffe) enhances performance. However, this is
apparently at the expense of torque at lower RPMs (a characteristic
commonly attributed to N/A engine setups), where the car is driven most
often (unless all one does with the car is race it!). This conclusion
is based on the fact that my '94 with stock exhaust consistently
generated torque earlier than both Roger's '93 and Mike's '95 (see dyno
comparison chart).


> - a cat-back replacement does not give you more peak hp nor torque
>
> - a full exhaust upgrade will change the curves as well as will give you
> increase in peak values. This means that removing the pre-cats is what the
> rest of the exhaust makes really working.

If exhaust is to make a difference, the entire system from the turbos
back must be tackled. The apparent result is that the horsepower and
torque curves will be shifted higher in the RPM range, probably with
higher peaks. Again, this is better for drag racing but may sacrifice
some drivability.


> - on a track there are much more external variables (driver, clutch,
> aero.resist., weight, etc.) than on a dyno

Exactly. I have to question anyone who claims that track/G-Tech
results, while useful, are more reliable and/or repeatable than dyno
test results.


> - the small fans on a dyno are a problem on hot ambient temperatures for
> sure ! With an open hood, an ambient temp of max 9°C we are getting intake
> temperatures like on road at 20°C with closed hood (sucking warm air in).

Again, the intake charge temperature was monitored and found to be in
the normal operating range. I don't understand the intercooler
argument.


> I totally agree with you guys saying that measuring three cars on a dyno is
> not compareable. Interestingly enough the cars showed the very same
> characteristics in their curve and if Mikes car had a little bit more boost
> it would have shown the very same curve as Jim's car. The difference of the
> dp/cat-back then would maybe be show a better power curve after the peak
> (5500-5700)

Measuring the three cars IS comparable. No, maybe not as good as a
single car being dynoed between each mod and with adequate cool-down
periods, but pretty darn good. Besides, even if a single car were
tested in this manner, it still wouldn't be the READER'S car! Perhaps
it is more useful to a group of owners to have tested a group of cars
afterall...


> More precise stuff will be found in the mega-huge message tonight (I'm at
> 50% right now)

I look forward to reading it.


The bottom line is that most readers on this list use their car as a
daily driver and are interested in making simple modifications that
extract more performance in various areas without sacrificing much, if
any, performance in other areas. Many consider spending a significant
amount of money on a freer-flowing aftermarket exhaust system. Before
such an investment is made, I feel that it is important to point out
that 1) a cat-back system will do little more than make the car louder
(uh, I own a STEALTH), and 2) while improving performance at high-RPMs,
a turbo-back exhaust upgrade may sacrifice low-end torque. Armed with
this information, the owner is more prepared to decide how to proceed.
In my case, I'll stick with the stock system and find a more effective
upgrade on which to spend my money.

Besides performance, the last thing we need to sacrifice is our
credibility. Too many owners of N/A cars (where the difference is
apparently much greater) have run out and purchased aftermarket exhaust
systems after being told of the performance increases only to find that
that additional performance is only at the upper limits of the rev-band
(where they rarely drive) while overall drivability has suffered
significantly.

Roger and I have provided the best interpretation we could of the dyno
results, and it is certainly open for
discussion/refinement/criticism/etc. Whatever the conclusion, let's be
sure it is completely clear to all. Just my 2c.

-Jim
--
Jim Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews

*** 3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 72% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Blitz Blow-Off Valve
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, Top Speed: 168mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
1 Feb 99 Dyno Session: 406 SAE HP, 354 lb-ft torque
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 2 09:07:16 1999
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Errin makes some very good points in this thread. Debate is great. Turning up the
technical/intellectual gauge a notch has always been one of the challenging things about
this group. This and the gentle manlike conduct here, which is even more admirable, is
what sets this 3S forum apart from all others of it's kind. Given this, I'd like to
make a couple of points: different food for thought if you will.

1) Although dynoing a 3S engine for flywheel horsepower (before and/or after mods) and
then redynoing it in the car, are preferably the best way/s to get accurate
representations of what is going on, it is in fact not realistic. To expect this to
happen at any time in the remote future is prohibitive given the coin and time involved
. Unlike Supras, these are not vehicles which have been Factory Race Prepped or
otherwise used by Professional Teams which not only have access to such equipment, but
which remove/alter and reinstall engines of the same on a competitive daily basis. The
type of information, equipment and professional expertise seen in such situations is
not available in the 3S world. So, the European dyno results are absolutely as good a
representation of quality information as we can expect now, and far exceed any American
results thus far performed and availed. Point: "If if's were camels, beggars would ride"
or if you will, "A bird in hand is worth many in the bush".

2) Roger's first language is not English. I doubt if it's his second or even third
language...he has something like 6. He is also not employed by NASA, but were he born
Stateside, perhaps he would have been. . His technical contributions to this group are
second to non and his website has proven to be a wealth of freely shared information for
those interested in modifying their 3S cars. Without this generously shared information,
this group would be the less. Factor a few more like him, out of this group, and it
would be impoverished. Point: "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth."

Best

Darc

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 2 09:15:32 1999
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References: <199907311150.HAA25689@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Stutter
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just reduce the gap on plugs to 0.034"

it did the trick for me.

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 2 09:19:17 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Stutter
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Can you remeber what hose/hoses were those? maybe just whereabouts under the
hood?



----- Original Message -----
From: Gabriel Estrada <typhoonzz@earthlink.net>
To: Brad Bedell <bbedell@austin.rr.com>; <Stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Stutter


> Check all of the vacuum lines. When I was having a similar problem with
my
> VR-4, I went through and changed all of the plugs, wires, air filter, fuel
> filter and changed the oil. It didn't make any difference what-so-ever.
> Went through and found a vacuum line had cracked. Replaced it with new
> silicone lines and the car runs 10x stronger. Check out
> www.bakerprecision.com for new lines that are much nicer than the crappy
> rubber hose you get at part stores.
> Hope this helps with the problem.
> Gabe Estrada
> 94 Pearl Yellow 3000GT VR-4
> 92 Gmc Typhoon
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 2 09:32:46 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Stutter
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The location is the Vacuum lines on the passenger side of the car, up by the
Wshield washer tank. They make a u shape and the break in mine was on the
underside of the line. To date (knocking on wood) I have not had one
sputter since.
Gabe Estrada
94 Pearl Yellow 3000GT VR-4
92 Gmc Typhoon
----- Original Message -----
From: Murat Okcuoglu <murat@ashacorp.com>
To: <Stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Stutter


> Can you remeber what hose/hoses were those? maybe just whereabouts under
the
> hood?
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gabriel Estrada <typhoonzz@earthlink.net>
> To: Brad Bedell <bbedell@austin.rr.com>; <Stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 10:01 AM
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Stutter
>
>
> > Check all of the vacuum lines. When I was having a similar problem with
> my
> > VR-4, I went through and changed all of the plugs, wires, air filter,
fuel
> > filter and changed the oil. It didn't make any difference what-so-ever.
> > Went through and found a vacuum line had cracked. Replaced it with new
> > silicone lines and the car runs 10x stronger. Check out
> > www.bakerprecision.com for new lines that are much nicer than the crappy
> > rubber hose you get at part stores.
> > Hope this helps with the problem.
> > Gabe Estrada
> > 94 Pearl Yellow 3000GT VR-4
> > 92 Gmc Typhoon
> >
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 2 12:30:52 1999
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Reply-To: <mattj@fallon.com>
From: "Matt Jannusch" <mattj@fallon.com>
To: "Team 3S Tech List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Exhaust Upgrade = Power?
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 14:29:58 -0500
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> This conclusion is based on the fact that my '94 with stock exhaust
> consistently generated torque earlier than both Roger's '93 and
> Mike's '95 (see dyno comparison chart).

Your car should make torque earlier than Roger's car. He has 13G turbos and
you don't. You also have a different boost controller than both Roger and
Mike. I'm not sure I would be willing to say that your car generated the
torque earlier because of the exhaust when there are other variables. There
are three different cars, in different states of tune - you can't
realistically draw comparisons and label them as "fact". Jim and Mike's
cars aren't even running the same boost level! The earlier torque could
even be caused by different ECU calibrations between years (didn't the ECU
undergo a major revision between 93-94 and again between 94-95?). How do we
know this isn't the cause of the torque discrepancies?

> Measuring the three cars IS comparable. No, maybe not as good as a
> single car being dynoed between each mod and with adequate cool-down
> periods, but pretty darn good. Besides, even if a single car were
> tested in this manner, it still wouldn't be the READER'S car! Perhaps
> it is more useful to a group of owners to have tested a group of cars
> afterall...

At least with a single car, the horsepower and torque differences can
actually be attributed to whichever part or setting was changed. Whether
that applies the same to other cars is questionable, however at least you
have data on what the changes to that particular car yielded. This is the
only real way to get baseline data that you can call a "fact". Comparing
different cars in different states of tune doesn't yield much reliable data.

> Roger and I have provided the best interpretation we could of the dyno
> results, and it is certainly open for
> discussion/refinement/criticism/etc. Whatever the conclusion, let's be
> sure it is completely clear to all. Just my 2c.

That sounds fair to me... I hope I'm not sounding overly negative (although
I'm fairly certain I am). I can't understand how a blanket statement of "a
cat-back exhaust upgrade yields no horsepower gains" can be made from the
questionable data we have on hand. We need better data, from one car on the
same dyno with the only change between runs being the different exhaust.
First run stock, then put the cat-back exhaust on - run again, then put on a
high-flow cat - run again, put on a downpipe - run again, and then gut the
pre-cats and run again. This is the only way to even come close to
comparable data.

I'm not saying a cat-back (or any other exhaust upgrade) makes or doesn't
make more power - I don't have any data to support that either way.
Conventional wisdom says that on a turbo-powered car a better flowing
exhaust will generate more peak horsepower than a worse flowing exhaust. If
the stock exhaust flows well enough for the horsepower levels we are seeing,
then so be it. If it does not flow well enough, then we will see gains with
a cat-back exhaust if the cat-back portion of the stock exhaust is the
largest restriction.

In order to conclusively say a specific part does or doesn't increase
horsepower, that must be the only variable being tested. This is how real
facts are generated.

Certainly having dyno plots available from these three cars is a great
benefit to all of us to see some ballpark figures of expected horsepower for
various states of tune, however drawing conclusions by comparing the three
different cars isn't going to result in factual data.

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 2 12:42:53 1999
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Reply-To: <mattj@fallon.com>
From: "Matt Jannusch" <mattj@fallon.com>
To: "Team 3S Tech List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Test Pipes
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 14:42:07 -0500
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Where can I get a test pipe for my 3000GT? I haven't seen any vendors
selling them and I figured it is easiest to just ask here for
recommendations. I have what I believe is an Alamo Downpipe and a Borla
cat-back exhaust, so I think a standard test pipe should fit this setup.
Any ideas?

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 2 12:53:26 1999
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 12:53:26 -0700
From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Organization: General Atomics - Fusion Group
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To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: clutch thud
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> OK .... my '93 VR-4 has got that thud noise when you engage 1st gear. The
> car will actually move a couple of inches when engaging it !! I think I saw
> something a little while back about an adjustment that could be made to the
> clutch pedal (from Bill Wagner ???). Could somebody post exactly how this
> adjustment is done. My clutch starts to bite at only an inch or two off the
> floor!!!

Some have reported that the following clutch adjustment will help the 1st gear
engage thud: lengthen the bolt that goes from the clutch pedal into the clutch
vacuum assist. Use 1/2 turn increments as a little adjustment goes a long way.

This adjustment has not eliminated the problem in my car, I still get thud.
Thudding sometimes occurs while completely stopped. It never occurs when I'm
rolling. I currently suspect a faulty/leaky hose with check valve or the vacuum
booster.

While diagnosing this problem, I noticed the check procedure in the service
manual implies that the clutch pedal should not go all the way to the floor. Is
this true? Mine always goes completely to the floor regardless of where I have
the vacuum bolt adjusted.

--
I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 2 13:04:26 1999
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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 13:04:26 -0700
From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Organization: General Atomics - Fusion Group
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Y-pipe joint
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A while after I bought my car, I discovered that my Y-Pipe hose was replaced
with a short section of hose. Is is fitted over the throttle body and over the
plastic Y-pipe and held on with generic hose clamps on both ends. I still
haven't disassembled to see how they removed/cut the original hose.

For replacement hoses, check out http://www.turbonetics.com/, catalog, "T",
silicon connectors. They also have some heavy duty T-bolt clamps.

Kevin Clark wrote:
>
> > In my car, the plastic Y pipe connection to the throotle
> > body does not seem to have any type of grommet or gasket.
> > it is simply a hose clamp connection.
> >
> > Is this normal or did the dealer left parts out?
>
> I assume that you do not run high boost as this Y pipe
> would not stay on :)
>
> The Y-pipe should have a rubber grommet/seal that sits
> in the end of the pipe with a little lip that you should
> be able to see.
>
> This rubber does wear and while the removal of the Y
> pipe is fairly easy, the replacement of it can be a
> real nightmare. People have tried a number of ways to
> make this easier such as wet it with water, and heat
> it with a hair dryer.
>
> The unfortunate thing is that this piece of rubber
> can not be purchased without the Y-pipe (over here
> in NZ that item is about US$120). This has lead to
> a number of ways of fixing the rubber once it has
> "split", such as superglue it to the Y-pipe, etc :)
>
> If you are missing this piece of rubber and your
> Y-pipe is not blowing off then I, for one, would be
> very interested in knowing what they have used as a
> replacement...
>
> Cheers,
> Kevin Clark
> '91 GTO-VR4
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

--
I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 2 13:30:05 1999
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From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'mattj@fallon.com'" <mattj@fallon.com>
Cc: Team 3S Tech List <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Test Pipes
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 13:29:21 -0700
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Matt...

ATR sells the test pipe and down pipe separately (as well as a high flow
cat). However, I had to modify the test pipe so that it mated to my GReddy
catback system. The "assumption" seems to be that the consumer is going to
connect the ATR DP & TP to the stock exhaust, so it reduces back to 2.5".
ATR also uses a slip fit flange that makes it more difficult to swap out the
TP. M guess is that, if you try to buy Alamo's TP or ATR's, you'll have to
have some welding and flange work done. Soooo, to make a long story shorter,
got to a muffler shop with the length, diameter, and tracing of both flanges
you need, and pay them a few $$$ to make a test pipe.

Looking forward...Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Jannusch [mailto:mattj@fallon.com]
Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 12:42 PM
To: Team 3S Tech List
Subject: Team3S: Test Pipes


Where can I get a test pipe for my 3000GT? I haven't seen any vendors
selling them and I figured it is easiest to just ask here for
recommendations. I have what I believe is an Alamo Downpipe and a Borla
cat-back exhaust, so I think a standard test pipe should fit this setup.
Any ideas?

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 2 13:36:13 1999
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To: "'stealth@starnet.net'" <stealth@starnet.net>,
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: More stuff for sale :)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 14:31:48 -0600
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Well all here's some more items for sale. These are all good and no bad
stuff I promise. Here's the list and for the stock stuff give me a price you
want to offer for it......

1 1/2 yr. old rc550 injectors (6) just flow tested at rc 2 months ago $400
stock turbo manifolds price-???
rear cargo cover Grey in color $75
hallowed out exhaust housings for front and rear turbo and stock
downpipe-price???

Well I think this is it so far until more stuff needs to get cleared out of
my garage. Prices are firm other than the ??? marked ones.

92 3000 GTO MMC
500 H.P. of broken fun again :(
Plates (HIPRESR)
1-800-888-gwla x4733


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 2 14:05:44 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Exhaust Upgrade = Power?
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Matt Jannusch wrote:
>
> > This conclusion is based on the fact that my '94 with stock exhaust
> > consistently generated torque earlier than both Roger's '93 and
> > Mike's '95 (see dyno comparison chart).
>
> [ ... ] These are three different cars, in different states of tune -
> you can't realistically draw comparisons and label them as "fact".

Rereading my statement, you will see that I am stating as fact not my
conclusion, but the dyno measurements on which my conclusion is based.
That the car with stock exhaust consistently produced torque earlier
than the cars with freer-flowing exhaust is fact, as this was measured
and not interpreted in any way. Not wanting to mislead anyone in any
way, I am always reluctant to consider any conclusion of mine as fact.
However, from the data collected during the dyno sessions, my warning to
those considering an aftermarket exhaust stands.

That said, you are quite right that Roger's larger turbos could be
responsible for the descrepancy. However, it is interesting that in all
cases, Roger's torque curve and Mike's torque curve were virtually
identical from 1800 to 2400 RPM (the latter appears to be the RPM at
which Mike's boost setting is attained, causing the curves to diverge).
Such behavior, as you also pointed out, could be attributed to the
different boost controllers, but this seems a less likely culprit than
the exhaust since both the Blitz and the A'PEXi simply have the
wastegates completely closed in this range (ie- they are essentially
isolated from the equation). Also note that my torque curve and Roger's
torque curve were practically identical from 2400 to 3600 RPM (the
latter appears to be the RPM at which Roger's 13Gs begin making a
difference), probably demonstrating that the different boost controllers
acted similarly.


> At least with a single car, the horsepower and torque differences can
> actually be attributed to whichever part or setting was changed. Whether
> that applies the same to other cars is questionable, however at least you
> have data on what the changes to that particular car yielded. This is the
> only real way to get baseline data that you can call a "fact". Comparing
> different cars in different states of tune doesn't yield much reliable data.

No, data is always a fact, and as we had consistent results on the dyno,
the data posted on our web sites is reliable. But dispensing with
semantics, I agree that someone with the time and money to dyno test a
vehicle between mods in a controlled environment (temperature, pressure,
etc.) could produce reliable (factual?) interpretations of and
conclusions from the collected data for that vehicle. However, this
does not seem to be a feasible alternative, at least for me.


> In order to conclusively say a specific part does or doesn't increase
> horsepower, that must be the only variable being tested. This is how real
> facts are generated.

Note that if everyone on the list is willing to chip in to pay for all
of the mods and dyno time, I'd be a happy volunteer! I'd like the
Greddy (no annoying Borla resonance) exhaust, please... ;-)


> Certainly having dyno plots available from these three cars is a great
> benefit to all of us to see some ballpark figures of expected horsepower for
> various states of tune, however drawing conclusions by comparing the three
> different cars isn't going to result in factual data.

Okay. :-)

--
Jim Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews

*** 3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 72% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Blitz Blow-Off Valve
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, Top Speed: 168mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
1 Feb 99 Dyno Session: 406 SAE HP, 354 lb-ft torque


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 2 14:05:48 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Exhaust Upgrade
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wce@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:
>
> 2) Roger's first language is not English. I doubt if it's his second or even third
> language...he has something like 6. He is also not employed by NASA, but were he born
> Stateside, perhaps he would have been. . His technical contributions to this group are
> second to non and his website has proven to be a wealth of freely shared information for
> those interested in modifying their 3S cars. Without this generously shared information,
> this group would be the less. Factor a few more like him, out of this group, and it
> would be impoverished. Point: "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth."

True, but probably not necessary. No one is being offensive, and I'm
sure Roger is enjoying the discussion as much as I (looking forward to
reading his reply later this evening). We all have the common goal of
finding out what the hell is going on. That our dyno results are
adequate is obviously debatable, but it's the best data we have at this
time.

Thanx... -Jim

--
Jim Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews

*** 3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 72% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Blitz Blow-Off Valve
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, Top Speed: 168mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
1 Feb 99 Dyno Session: 406 SAE HP, 354 lb-ft torque

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 2 14:16:43 1999
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Reply-To: "Jeffrey Young" <jefyoung@ix.netcom.com>
From: "Jeffrey Young" <jefyoung@ix.netcom.com>
To: "Stealth - Team 3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Polished valve covers
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 15:13:53 -0600
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Team 3S Members

I just finished polishing the front valve cover on my car (a good picture at
http://www.omega-sw.com/stealth/fre3.jpg ..more at my web site) and I'm
really pleased with the results. Since I have all of the different cutting,
abrasives, and polishing compounds, I decided to see if any other lists
members would be interested in polished valve covers. The price would be
$150 plus your old one. Since I have an extra one, I would be able to ship
you a polished one immediately after receiving your old one.

What I want to know is how many people would be interested in this
proposition. It takes about a week to do one cover (spare time in the
evenings..it currently takes about 15 hours), so I wouldn't be able to 'mass
produce' them and I would offer a money back if your not satisfied with it
(Just return the polished one and I'll return your old one). I can take
Visa/MC.


Email me privately at jefyoung@ix.netcom.com if your interested and I'll
respond back.

Thanks.....We now return you to your normal programming..


Jeffrey
92 RT/Turbo
www.omega-sw.com/stealth

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 2 14:29:20 1999
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From: "Matt Jannusch" <mattj@fallon.com>
To: "Team 3S Tech List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Exhaust Upgrade = Power?
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 16:28:34 -0500
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> Rereading my statement, you will see that I am stating as fact not my
> conclusion, but the dyno measurements on which my conclusion is based.
> That the car with stock exhaust consistently produced torque earlier
> than the cars with freer-flowing exhaust is fact, as this was measured
> and not interpreted in any way. Not wanting to mislead anyone in any
> way, I am always reluctant to consider any conclusion of mine as fact.
> However, from the data collected during the dyno sessions, my warning to
> those considering an aftermarket exhaust stands.

Okay, I can understand this. What I would be really interested in would be
putting Roger's cat-back exhaust on your car to see what difference it would
make on your car, as we now have a general baseline reading of your car's
typical horsepower and torque curves. We probably can't duplicate the
environmental variables present on the day the initial readings were taken,
however we can see how the cat-back or other parts would change the basic
power characteristics of your car.

> Such behavior, as you also pointed out, could be attributed to the
> different boost controllers, but this seems a less likely culprit than
> the exhaust since both the Blitz and the A'PEXi simply have the
> wastegates completely closed in this range (ie- they are essentially
> isolated from the equation).

I'm not sure we can say this about the Blitz and A'PEXi controllers.
Perhaps they are completely closed, but perhaps one starts letting some
pressure through early to lessen the chance of overshooting the boost
target. Until a way is found to determine the exact behavior of the
controllers, we are making a guess here. I tend to agree that the perfect
behavior would be for the controller to not allow any airflow to the
wastegate until the boost target is very nearly reached, or perform some
sort of calculation to predict at what point the turbos will hit their
target and have the wastegate opening at that point. I haven't seen any
evidence that this is indeed what the controllers do. If I remember
correctly (and I may not), the Blitz and A'PEXi both have some sort of gain
and ratio settings that you need to twiddle to get certain boost levels.
Since it is expected to have the user set these manually, I'm thinking that
the controllers aren't intelligent enough to do what I mentioned above.

> No, data is always a fact, and as we had consistent results on the dyno,
> the data posted on our web sites is reliable. But dispensing with
> semantics, I agree that someone with the time and money to dyno test a
> vehicle between mods in a controlled environment (temperature, pressure,
> etc.) could produce reliable (factual?) interpretations of and
> conclusions from the collected data for that vehicle. However, this
> does not seem to be a feasible alternative, at least for me.

It is not feasible for me, either as I have no access to an AWD dyno.
( If I had, I might consider using my car as a guinea pig, or convincing my
roommate to use his VR4 instead. :-)

> Note that if everyone on the list is willing to chip in to pay for all
> of the mods and dyno time, I'd be a happy volunteer! I'd like the
> Greddy (no annoying Borla resonance) exhaust, please... ;-)

Perhaps we can reach a compromise in the data and simply run a car with the
stock exhaust attached and then disconnect the exhaust at the main cat to
simulate what it would be like if a "perfect" exhaust could be built with no
restriction. Would this be a possibility? At least we could then determine
if it is even reasonable to expect gains from an exhaust upgrade.

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 2 16:10:55 1999
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To: "Errin Humphrey" <errin@u.washington.edu>,
"3/S Sirius Mailing List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Exhaust Upgrade = Power? (pt.2)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 01:10:07 +0200
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Hey friends,

As I'm writing a lot of emails and other stuff in English my other language
getting lost within the next weeks, haha.

A lot answers have already be given by all the great people on this list.
Please forgive me if I again cover something already discussed but I really
snipped a lot away :)

>>The big problems on turbo cars is the lag on the system and we cannot
>>eliminate it. Here a better flowing exhaust helps (as well a BOV may be
>>able to do)
>
>Unfortunately for your case, you are wrong here. If this were true,
>then I wouldn't have seen so many Supra owners dyno their cars and
>then run their cars at the track leading to increases in trapspeeds which
>almost ALWAYS corresponded to the above approximation (within
>acceptable variance).

Ok, so you are saying that a better flowing exhaust does not help to reduce
the typicaI turbo-lag. I agree with such a approximation if it is dyno
proven for sure :)

>need for ~proper~ dynoing procedures as well the importance of
>getting a second "opinion" (i.e. don't just keep going to the same dyno).

Please note that my dyno sheets are comming from 3 different dynos. The one
from Digit Power is the one that showed way to high figures and is known as
not accurate. This is because I do not refer to these measurements again.

>I still have yet to hear an adequate response which explains why our
>trapspeeds would increase with only exhaust mods. It is unfortunate
>that you have not made any runs at the track, and this seems to be
>the dividing line between us.

Yes, this is a big disadvantage by me ! I only did several G-Tech runs and
I'm a bad starter, bad shifter and so on. This is maybe also why I feel the
more lag on a 13G equipped car against a 9B during fast accelleration. But
the
comparison was also influenced by the different trannies (5 and 6 speed)

>>However, when I installed my Borla exhuast, I went from consistent
>>13.4's at 101mph to consistant 13.1's at 103mph. Statistically, that
>>would show a gain over 20hp on my car..

Interestinlgy for sure and I do not say that the gain is only comming from
the less weight here. He therefore made the runs on the same day with the
stock and with the Borla exhaust ? This is exactly what Barry King correctly
said : Comparisons should be made with the same ambient, and the best would
be on the same day without and with the mod.

As I don't know a lot about drag racing, I wonder how much the air (I mean
the resistance), cool-downs, track differencies, clutch, driver (!) do play
in the results of et's and trap speeds. Isn't it true that these variables
are more eliminated on a dyno ? I really think so !

>So Mike gains 2mph in the 1/4 mile after only adding a Borla. (I got
>about 3-4mph after doing full exhaust/dp/precats). Now, your opinion
>that the above dragger's approximation is inapplicable to turbocharged
>cars says the following: Mike's gain of ~2mph does NOT really correspond
>to a gain of 20hp but rather some number far less, say 2hp (since you
>are always claiming "NO GAINS" based on your dyno figures).

Yes, I'd say that replacing the stock exhaust helps to reduce trap speed and
et's. But I'd also say that only acat-back does not give you any pony. Each
car is different and therefore I agree that we'd say due to the better
exhaust flow the turbos are able to hold boost longer and therefore the
power curve falls down at somewhat higher rpm than with stock. This will
result in better trap speed and better torque curve over the rpm but I'm
pretty sure that there will not be any higher peak hp or tourqe. What do you
think ?

Another stupid question from a non-drag-racing guy ;-) If I replace the hood
with a lighweight one, remove any weight as possible (just eating yoghurt)
and I'll gain 2/10th and 2 mph in the 1/4 does this also correspond to 15hp
power gain ? Maybe I'm really missing something here.

> You say that it is because turbo cars have "lag on the system and we
> cannot eliminate it." Huh? That goes entirely against your position.

No, to be honest I think not. I agree if we say that we are able to keep
boost at 17psi from 0 - 1/4 mile without a drop during shifting. I was not
yet able to do this (see description above) and have always seen a drop
during shifting. As soon a some load is removed from the car, i.e. shifting
to next gear, boost drops. Do you agree ?

Please understand that I can't fully argue due to the lack on the language
and a lot of what you've wrote about my position is not clear to me. Anyway,
my position is still this :

A car may gain in trap speeds and et's with a cat-back system but you'll not
get higher rpm and trq figures. The whole power and torque curve may be
different and this can lead in higher upper rpm power figures (later boost
drop
down) but lower figures in the coasting area.

I never said, and will never say, that you will not see a better trap speed
when the dyno showed a 10hp increase. I'm sure you'll then shave some time
and increase speed. No discussion on that. But again, with a lighter car
you'll also gain some speed and et's but no hp (or I'm totally off and I
keep my mouth shot)

>So your explanation that "lag" is the reason why exhaust mods add no
>hp, or the auxiliary assumption that lag is a problem on the dyno but less
>problematic in the real world, does not help your case. It hurts it.

Lag is not a problem on the dyno at all. The boost is steady from about
2700rpm to 5500 where it then starts to fall off. No shifting or anything
else on the dyno. I said that replacing the "whole" exhaust helps to reduce
backpressure that finally increases the pressure difference from in-front
and after the turbo. This is what helps the turbos to spool better, i.e.
more freely and finally results in less turbo lag/spool up.

>just tells the following: *That in the ~real-world~ our cars are making
>much more power, and exhaust mods are able to bring about net gains.

I fully understand your point here and I also agree with the fact that the
intercoolers are not able to work that efficient on a dyno compared to the
car running on the street. This results in less dense air stealing power. As
we open the hood on the dyno we try to compensate this and the measured
intake temperatures are about the same (in the y-pipe). If' I'd then put
some ice onto the ICs I'd simulate much better than street conditions and
therefore would see more gain. And if the same ambient is then given on the
track I'm sure one will see better times and speeds as well.

>>I do not like if someone just says "exhaust". This because we have :
>>- pre-cats
>>- downpipe
>>- main cat
>>- cat-back (piping, muffler)

>Fine. We'll just let "exhaust" mean the whole deal, all of the above. I
>haveno problem with that, especially since you and Mike both had
>the whole works for your dyno tests.

No, we both had the pre-cats still installed as well as the restriction in
the Borla where it's piping starts.

In my point of view the precats are the biggest restriction in the design
besides the dp. As you have been on the Supra list you exaclty know that
replacing the dp with the restrictive pre-cat really gives more power.


>On different cars, and that is a fact! :) Roger, you made dyno runs with
>your car and you ~didn't even have proper tires on the car~! You had
>snow tires which were melting on the rollers.

Yes, I totally agree with you and they really started to stink on the 4
rollers. Although I do have high speed rated Continentals (made for Porsche)
and they didn't slipped at all then. They are rated to 210km/h and this was
enough for the dyno test. Unfortunately I had not the chance to play with
the AFC to make the mixture even leaner due to overheating the tires.

> There are a tons of other
>factors which you did not address in your comparisons. For instance,
>engine compression tests, miles on the cars, age of spark plugs, Mike
>was on stock BPV, most recent tuneup, Jim's is '94 wheares Mike's
>is '95 (w/ OBDII), and the list goes on. Again, you cannot take a test
>like this and make ~universal~ inferences about ALL 3000GT's.

We made a comparison of three cars but IMHO, a test on the dyno
removes some variables that are counting on the track (weight, drivers
experience, etc.... see above)

>>And this is why the hood is kept open during the dyno and there is no
>>air-resistance (dunno the right word). And as the massive air resitance is
>>not calcuated in any power formula it is more accurate on the dyno.
>
>Roger, with all due respect, you are so wrong here that I am almost at
>a loss for words.

Well, you found a lot, hehe ;-))

>What you are essentially saying is that since there is
>no air-resistance the car will not have to work as hard, and thus there is
>no need to worry about your car's airflow needs. If the dyno technician
>fed you this B.S. I would personally never show my face there again.

The car works as hard as it does on the street (load is given by the
e-motors on the rolls). Please, understand that some of us already
know what they are doing, hehe.

>Your car will make almost no hp if your wheels are lifted off of the
>ground, just as it takes very little hp to maintain constant highway
>speeds.

Yes, this is Kindergarten stuff, so no explanation necessary !

> Now, just because the dyno rollers don't (as far
>as I know) attempt to emulate the additional aerodynamic resistance
>does NOT mean that its airflow requirements are somehow reduced
>as a result of the decreased load.

No the rollers do not emulate the aerod. resistance but put the car onto
full load. The air the engine needs is sucked in and is not a problem. The
air needed for cooling is not provided, agreed. I already gave my statements
on how to compensate for this. Or dyno-sessions at 9°C was comparable
to 20°C on the street.

>Think of it this way: What would you rather do? Run 10 miles up a
>hill in 15°C weather with plenty of cool water to drink OR run 10 miles
>on a treadmill in a 35°C room with only an occasional mist of warm
>water sprayed on your face? Maybe neither sound very appealing :)

A good comparison, I like it, hehe. On our dyno day this was like :
Running 10 mls in 20°C with plenty of hot air compared to the treadmill
in a 9°C room with open window with less hot air to breath.

>You need intake air temp measurements
>to address this issue, not oil and water temps, and they should be compared
>to temps of when the car is on the road, not to the temps of other cars
>that are in the shop. Also, it seems presumptuous to put so much faith in
the
>accuracy of measurements made by just one instrument, and then make
>such universal statements as you have.

Interestingly, the air temperatures measured in the y-pipe where noticeable
lower on my car compared to the Stealths. The only theroy on this is that
the 13Gs are more efficient and have less discharge temperatures. The
difference I measured lately were in the 5-10°C on 20°C days. I will have
more adequate mesures soon when the WI will be tuned in.

>>Another thing about the dangers of overheating on the dyno (and whether
>there is truly adequate airflow). After your engine blew while on the
>dyno,you posted the following under the heading "Dyno Session 2 ...
>problems !":
>
>>I currently don't know what the problem is and I'm also not sure about the
>>theory. Anybody has another idea or already runned into the same problems?
>>BTW, oil temp was max. 208.4°F, water temp ok and oil pressure good
>>(was somewhat high at the beginning of this week)

>
>Just something to think about.... Even though the damage might have
>started on the highway, your engine was running until you put it on the
>dyno.

Well, today I know what the problems are. And no, the engine was already
damaged before this dyno session :( The problem got even worse the more
miles I made (the oil steam became bigger at the BOV)

>Of course, but you haven't addressed the intercooler issue. On many
>cars which add aftermarket turbos/SC I often hear different psi limits
>past which an intercooler is a necessity to avoid engine damage. It is
>seldom above 10psi, and yet there you guys were at Digit Power with
>your cars on the dyno running 0.9-1.0+ bar with the possibility that there
>was ~not~ sufficient airflow to ~both~ of your intercoolers (the fan may
>not have been large enough, and you did not ice them) that you may as
>well have NOT had intercoolers. That is a ~bad~ thing, and I have
>continued to remind you (and Dave, Mikael) about it for your own good.
>I feel really bad when I hear about another blown engine or lousy dyno
>results (esp. like Mikael who did no icing procedures).


Again, ambient was on low temps and on Mikaels dyno even lower !
Knock started around 1.0 bars and no, we did not went to find where the fuel
cut-off is. I already made this experience and I don't want to spend the
money again. We used the A/F snorcel in the exhaust, the oil temp meter in
the pan (if it holds well, hehe), temp sensor in the y-pipe and slightly
increased boost until we saw that the power is going down (due to the timing
retarded). We then put boost back a little and the power came back. This was
pretty well done on Jims car !

>>>But of course more pressure then can also cause some temperature
>>and backpressure problems. You are right about the detonation/knock
>>but I had the same knock at 15+ psi also on the road.
>
>Have you yet confirmed that Euro-VR4's have larger stock injectors and
>fuel pump to be properly matched to the 13G's? Otherwise, you can't
>use this to discount detonation on the dyno.

No, my car only has 13G as the differences. But as said the 13G has it's
different "island" in the flow characteristic and it is maybe very different
compared to the 9B. With stock bosot settings my benefit is that I can run a
long time on the autobahn with less discharge temperature than an imported
Stealth. My disadvantage is slightly more lag.

>What about the possibility that your older dyno runs (esp. at high boost)
>started the damage, your Autobahn runs exacerbated it, and your next
>dyno runs (Session 2) were the final blow to your engine?

I started to notice the white oil steam comming out under the hood as I
shifted to 5th at 240km/h. At this time I ran 1.25 bars of boost. Just below
the fuel-cut. I then went to the dyno and and wanted to see the real
figures. But the dyno showed that at 1.05bars the timing got retarded. This
was the last time I runned more than 1.1bars of boost.

>>As the pressure difference between in front the turbo and afterwards
>>causes the turbine to spool, a larger difference makes them more
>>efficient.Therefore one would assume that reducing the backpressure
>>increases the efficiency. One positive side effect is that the discharge
>>temperature is also be lower. Unfortunately our measurements did
>> not show any difference :(
>
>So in principle you realize why ff-exhaust should make a difference in
>power, but your dyno measurements did not confirm this. The whole time
>I have been trying to remind you of airflow, cooling, detonation issues
>as well as the danger of making too many generalizations from only a
>couple cars with too many variables present.

Forget the cooling stuff as it would pay a major rule in the hot days we
have now but then the ambient was an equivalent to 20°C and proper cooling.
Also understand that we have not had the pre-cuts gutted and still had a
small restriction in the Borla piping.

>>With the datalogger I can now log the detonation on the street and on the
>>dyno.

>Sounds great! I'm sure this will shed MUCH light on the issue. Even
>with the whole exhaust issue aside (and if further tests show I am wrong),
>I just really want to encourage you and other dynoers to really go the
>extra mile (w/ icing techniques, etc.) when you dyno your cars. Putting
>your car on the dyno is, in my opinion, on of the harshest things you can
>put your car through. I will truly feel bad if you or anyone else blows
>an engine again.


Yeah, I totally agree with you but the safety is that you can lift off the
gas when you see that the power curve is falling where it should still rise.
This is the great thing on the dyno as you can start with 0.8bars and
increase boost unti lyou are on the limit.

>It has been a pleasure discussing this with you. :)


And with all the others :) Just to bad we have a time delay ;-)

A short sidenote: I made my first runs today with the datalogger and I found
that knock is starting around 5450 with about 15psi of boost. Intake temp
was over 100°F (MAS sensor) but I was not able to measure the temp in the
y-pipe (please someone tell me where the probe got lost in my garage) To
this point this is exactly the same I have found on the dyno on different
temperatures. Timing got reatrded once but was not on another knock
situation as the amount was maybe not enough for the ECU. This is why I say
that 15psi is safe for a stock car as this is at the edge with some small
room. 16 psi will be on the edge and with a higher ambient you'll be on the
dark side.

Errin et all, I think saying "an aftermarket exhaust does not give you
anything" is wrong. We have to be more precisely :

1. Only an aftermarket cat-back may help you to gain in et's and mph due to
less weight and a better power curve in the upper region. But no increase in
peak hp / trq will be found and you'd probably lose some low-end power.

2. The same belongs to a dp and removing the main cat.

3. Both above mentioned parts will start to show their ability to make power
with the pre-cats removed. Then the music starts to play and the real gain
will be visible on the road, track and dyno.

What do you think, guys ?

Take care and ... don't drive fast .. fly on a low altitude :)

Roger, Chocolate-Guy
93'3000GT TT (ERL-WI)

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 2 18:45:05 1999
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From: "Oskar" <swede@pclink.com>
To: "Team 3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Exhaust Upgrade = Power?
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:41:12 -0500
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Hi all,

here's my personal experience with a 1995 R/T TT, 33k miles. NGKs gapped at
.037, Magnecore 8.5mm wires, K&N fipk, Apex~i SAVC R stock DP and stock
cat-back. (and Blitz dual turbo timer for measuring peak boost)

After gutting the pre-cats and installing a test-pipe my butt-dyno
definitely noticed faster spool-up of the turbos. My boost controller was
set at 1.0 kg/cm2 with a 70% BADC setting (Boost Actuator Duty Cycle). With
this setting my peak boost would normally go as high as 1.1 kg/cm2. After
the gutting procedure the boost peaks were higher, cannot recall exactly
what, but enough to be concerned. I had to reduce the BADC to 62% to keep
the boost peaks to 1.1 kg/cm2. This was during "normal driving", which in
this case means varied speed driving on freeways. I was not doing full-out
accelerations like at the drag track.

My non-scientific conclusion is that eliminating all three cats resulted in
improved spool-up and improved acceleration.

Oskar
'95 R/T TT
12.67@107.3 w/ above mods + HKS BOV

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 2 19:10:08 1999
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From: Bruce Body <bbody@pacbell.net>
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To: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
CC: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: clutch thud
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I too have the thud and haven't had time to do a self diagnosis so I
took it to my dealer. They state my slave cylinder is leaking. I have
one on order and haven't replaced it yet. They told me the clutch is non
adjustable and that has me feeling a little uneasy because I know the
service manual has an adjustment procedure. Bottom line for me is $180
USD and they'll fix my problem (I do have brake fluid type leakage on my
tranny and the floor). I'll post my results.

Bruce
3Si #0243

Ken Middaugh wrote:
>
> > OK .... my '93 VR-4 has got that thud noise when you engage 1st gear. The
> > car will actually move a couple of inches when engaging it !! I think I saw
> > something a little while back about an adjustment that could be made to the
> > clutch pedal (from Bill Wagner ???). Could somebody post exactly how this
> > adjustment is done. My clutch starts to bite at only an inch or two off the
> > floor!!!
>
> Some have reported that the following clutch adjustment will help the 1st gear
> engage thud: lengthen the bolt that goes from the clutch pedal into the clutch
> vacuum assist. Use 1/2 turn increments as a little adjustment goes a long way.
>
> This adjustment has not eliminated the problem in my car, I still get thud.
> Thudding sometimes occurs while completely stopped. It never occurs when I'm
> rolling. I currently suspect a faulty/leaky hose with check valve or the vacuum
> booster.
>
> While diagnosing this problem, I noticed the check procedure in the service
> manual implies that the clutch pedal should not go all the way to the floor. Is
> this true? Mine always goes completely to the floor regardless of where I have
> the vacuum bolt adjusted.
>
> --
> I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
>
> Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
> General Atomics
> San Diego
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 2 22:04:17 1999
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From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
To: "team 3si" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: high tech coatings
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 22:02:41 -0700
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For our more affluent members with an unlimited budget ---- rotor/caliper
and header coatings. plus just about any other engine part you might want
to protect.

Jim Berry

http://www.swaintech.com/index.shtml

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 2 22:28:16 1999
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From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
To: "team 3si" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: coatings tech article
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This tech article is part of the previous link I sent on coatings but
I thought it worth doing a follow up post.


JIm Berry

http://www.swaintech.com/get_tech.html

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From: "Palamara, Peter" <pala@gwl.com>
To: "'stealth@starnet.net'" <stealth@starnet.net>,
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: More stuff for sale :)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:41:49 -0600
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Well I changed my mind ignore the firm thing and give me a reasonable offer
for these parts. Thanx


1 1/2 yr. old rc550 injectors (6) just flow tested at rc 2 months ago $400
stock turbo manifolds price-???
rear cargo cover Grey in color $75
hallowed out exhaust housings for front and rear turbo and stock
downpipe-price???


92 3000 GTO MMC
500 H.P. of broken fun again :(
Plates (HIPRESR)
1-800-888-gwla x4733


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 2 23:51:50 1999
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Content-Identifier: Tallahassee Mitsubishi
Hop-Count: 1
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:57 -0500
From: Jeff A Williamson <Jeff.A.Williamson@jci.com>
Subject: Team3S: Tallahassee Mitsubishi
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.net
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I've lost my notes and my internet server is down. Can someone please tell me
the number and contact person to call at Tallahassee Mitsubishi?

Thanks.

Jeff Williamson
Belleville, MI





For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 3 08:26:18 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "Stealth List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: TMO Datalogger / first runs (contains one small pic)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 17:28:52 +0200
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I'd like to share this information as I will not be able to create a new
page in the next days and I think it will help to understand what is going
on during running the car. Please excuse the large file and it's
distribution but I think it gives you all a good insight ;-)

Attached to this email you'll find a 22 second screen shot of one small part
logged by the software during a run yesterday evening. The Water injection
was running although it did nothign than spraying a little water in as it is
just not yet tuned in and I wanted to make sure everything works fine (and
it does)

The WOT run was in 3rd gear up the hill starting at 1900 streight up to 6000
and I logged 8 items at this time. Some things to note before I come to the
interesting things :

- The air flow output of the ECU is 1606Hz max. This is only a limitation in
the output to the logger (caused by the ECU) and does not affect what the
ECU is reading.
- Only 1 O2 sensor is read. We currently don't know if it is the left or
right one.
- Only 4 samples per second are logged. This because NT 4.0 seems not to
like the serial port much. With Win95/98 we are getting between 20-55
samples per second with 16 items logged. Therefore the curves are not as
smooth as they should be.

Now have a look at the logged data and of course I'm very interested in the
knock seen around 5800. The run was made at 1.0 bars boost with a small
overboost to 1.02bars. Interestingly there was some slight knock from 2950 -
3750 where the small overboost occured. The timing got not retarded as knock
was too small.

Also check out the intake temperature (MAS). It was 104°F when I started and
within the forrest the temp went down to 93°F. This proves that even with
more speed no cooler air came in to the filter :( The ambient was about
12-15 °C lower than the intake temp and this causes our intercoolers to work
overtime.

This temperature may be the cause for the timing and injector pulse width
logs. As the ECU sees that high temps, it chooses another range in the fuel
and ignition map to reduce the timing and increase the fuel. On every WOT
run in any gear I saw the timing at around 25° (the whole log was 20 minutes
with any kind of driving, very interesting) dwon from 38° or even 49°. On
the high knock the timing went down some degrees, but nothing spectacular.

Now let's look at the O2 sensor curve and we see that at WOT the O2 reads
damn rich 0.92-0.96 Volts. Again, I think the high intake temperature is
responsible for this as the ECU tries everything to be on the save way as
well as the fuel map simply be choosen in open loop operation (no regard to
the O2 sensor readings). At fast part throttle runs, the O2 sensor showed
good 0.84 volts. I wonder if this value changes when the ambient temp
becomes lower.

Now, the most important part : Injector pulse width. This is the time the
injectors are open during one revolution of the engine (two revolutions per
cycle on a 4-stroke). The available time for injectioning the fuel is a
function of rpm. If the time of one revolution is the same as the injector
pulse width, IDC is 100%. In the log checking out the IPW at 5200 we'll find
21.7ms but one revolution takes 23ms at 5200. Therefore the injectors have
already been at 94% IDC ! Going to 5500 we find 22ms for the IPW but at this
rpm ony 21.8ms are available. We are therefore above 100% IDC... strange,
huh ? The explanation is that this is what the ECU takes out of the fuel MAP
and sends to the logger. Of course above this rpm the injectors are just
open all the time as the ECU wants to run as rich as it finds on his MAP.

I remember an IDC of more than 90% (up to 94% if my internal memory is ok)
Jim saw on his S-AVC-R on the dyno. But this was with a cool ambient and
much colder air sucked in (12°C with open hood against 40°C on the road with
closed hood). Also the A/F snorcel device told us that the ratio was on a
good, not that rich side (around 12.8) as the O2 sensor is telling me on
this run.

Recap : This was a run with only a boost controller and K&N filter installed
(all other mods have been removed to provide a back-to-back test) The WI was
at idle not injectioning any water. Boost was 15 psi then. Unfortunately,
the ECU wants to compensate for the high ambient temps and therefore dumps
in fuel. This causes the injectors to be maxed out extremely as well as the
fuel pump may start to show some problems soon. But I never runned into fuel
cut, hesitation or other problems. We see that even at 15 psi I got some
knock in the high rpm area. Not heavy but existing ! This tells me that the
dumped fuel is not enough anymore to cool the combustion down, although we
still have a rich situation here. But we don't know if the injectors or the
pump is the limit. Therefore both should be upgraded if the decision for a
better fuel-path is done.

I'm not sure what will happen when I just start to reduce the fuel curve
with the AFC. A result could be that in deeper temps the mixture will become
too lean while it is good when it is tuned in. This sounds somewhat
dangerous to me and should only be done to test the stuff. Also I hope to
get the EGT clamp-style sensor soon (Mike !) so I do have another value to
look on.

Happy boosting,
Roger
93'3000GT TT (getting out all the secrets...)



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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 3 09:08:45 1999
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From: "Murat Okcuoglu" <murat@ashacorp.com>
To: "Stealth List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <005d01beddc4$f0126b20$438a83d8@RGERL012599_000.peoplesoft.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: TMO Datalogger
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:04:09 -0700
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>
> Attached to this email you'll find a 22 second screen shot of one small
part
> logged by the software during a run yesterday evening. The Water injection
> was running although it did nothign than spraying a little water in as it
is
> just not yet tuned in and I wanted to make sure everything works fine (and
> it does)
>


Thanks for the graph, it was very interesting.

Roger, would it be possible for you to share data in ASCII or *.CSV format?
I have this habit of analyzing data in 1000 different ways to bring the most
out of it.

I live in Santa Barbara but I have not been able to get together with the
data logger guys yet.

Murat.
91 stealth t/t

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 3 09:21:01 1999
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From: "Matt Jannusch" <mattj@fallon.com>
To: "Stealth List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: TMO Datalogger / first runs
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:20:15 -0500
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> - The air flow output of the ECU is 1606Hz max. This is only a
> limitation in the output to the logger (caused by the ECU) and does
> not affect what the ECU is reading.

The DSM Karmen-Vortex sensor's maximum frequency is 1600Hz. Maybe the
sensor in our cars can go higher than this and Todd Day can change the
top-end of the graph to display higher? Perhaps he only graphs to 1600Hz
since the Datalogger was designed with a 1G DSM in mind to be logged.

> This temperature may be the cause for the timing and injector pulse width
> logs. As the ECU sees that high temps, it chooses another range
> in the fuel and ignition map to reduce the timing and increase the fuel.
> On every WOT run in any gear I saw the timing at around 25° (the whole
> log was 20 minutes with any kind of driving, very interesting) down
> from 38° or even 49°. On the high knock the timing went down some
> degrees, but nothing spectacular.

Are we sure that the ECU is smart enough to compensate for temperature
during WOT? The DSM ECU's aren't, they just pull fuel values from a static
table mapped with RPM, Airflow, and barometric pressure during WOT
operation. I don't think temperature compensation is part of the equation
because there is no sensor measuring the actual intake temperatures while on
boost (after the intercoolers where it matters). During regular cruising
where there isn't much boost I would expect that the ECU would make an
estimate of air density using the air temperature sensor on the airflow
sensor since the intake temps at the throttle body should be fairly close to
the temps seen at the sensor.

> Unfortunately, the ECU wants to compensate for the high ambient temps
> and therefore dumps in fuel. This causes the injectors to be maxed
> out extremely as well as the fuel pump may start to show some
> problems soon. But I never runned into fuel cut, hesitation or other
> problems. We see that even at 15 psi I got some knock in the high
> rpm area. Not heavy but existing ! This tells me that the dumped
> fuel is not enough anymore to cool the combustion down, although we
> still have a rich situation here. But we don't know if the
> injectors or the pump is the limit. Therefore both should be
> upgraded if the decision for a better fuel-path is done.

You are making a lot of assumptions about how the ECU works at WOT. If the
ECU saw high ambient temps and was trying to maintain a particular "safe"
A/F ratio target, then it should reduce fuel injection at higher
temperatures as the in-cylinder air would be less dense and require less
fuel. At WOT, I don't think the intake temps are going to vary that much
with the car on the road, at least not enough where the ECU programmers
would include a bunch of code to attempt to predict a variable which they
cannot measure. I think the ECU just takes its injection values from a
table that's mapped straight to RPM, airflow, and barometric pressure just
like the DSM ECU does.

On boost, while driving so the intercoolers get plenty of airflow, how much
variance is there in the intake temps after the intercoolers as corresponds
to intake temps at the air sensor? As the weather is warmer outside, does
it really affect the post-intercooler temps that much?

I'd be willing to bet that regardless of intake temperature (whether -10
degrees or 40 degrees) you are always going to see the same injector
pulsewidths for the same rate of airflow at WOT and that no temperature
compensation is occuring. You'll see leaner values on the O2 sensor at
lower temps, but it isn't because the injection rate has changed, it is
because the intake charge is more dense due to the lower temps.

> Happy boosting,
> Roger
> 93'3000GT TT (getting out all the secrets...)

It would be best if we didn't have to infer the secrets. Has anyone
decompiled the ECU code and figured out what exactly it is trying to do at
WOT? Any of the chip tuners that we can ask?

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 3 09:21:35 1999
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From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Spare wheels
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FWIW, I received my wheels from Arrow Tire and Wheel in Upland, CA.

I bought a set of 1997 six-spoke wheels for $400. Two were like new, one
was so-so, and one had been repaired and a half-inch of chrome around the
outer rim had been removed. They arrived exactly as described, although I
was pleasantly surprised at the excellent condition of the best two -- I
had expected to find peeling chrome.

I bought these to mount Yokahama 032R race tires, so their appearance is
not critical. Nevertheless, I'll probably send the one wheel back for
rechroming this winter (they charge $150 to rechrome) so I'll have a nice
set of four.

VR4 wheels come and go, but they seem to get a steady supply. If you need
wheels, call 909-946-0244 and tell 'em that Rich sent you. I told them that
Dennis Bretton sent me (thanks again, Dennis).

I KNOW that four wheels will go into the back of a VR4, and I've looked at
the various instructions I've gotten, but I sure don't see it. Guess I
gotta jam them in there this weekend.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 3 09:54:38 1999
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From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'Vineet Singh'" <billi_gates@hotmail.com>
Cc: "'Team3S'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Multi topic coverage here...
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:54:15 -0700
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Vineet...

You're always at risk of not getting any answers when you ask too many
questions in one message, but here's my response to three of yours...

1. DP: I have an ATR DP/TP/high flow cat that cost $500. It's a good unit. I
also had a custom unit (no main cat, no front precat) that I bought as a
part of package of parts, it wasn't stainless but only cost a couple hundred
to fab at a muffler shop. If I had it to do all over again, I'd go custom.
Talk to Errin Humphrey, he had a custom dual exhaust made that sounds great
and wasn't too expensive.

2. Differential back: Again, most muffler shops can do 3" in stainless (or
not) for less $$$ than trying to find an aftermarket unit.

3. Exhaust tip: I have the GReddy catback which has a single trumpet tip.
There's also another VR4 around town here that has the same exhaust. It's
lighter, supposedly tuned better, sounds great when the rest of the system
has been replaced. Before I removed all my cats, I thought it was even
quieter than the stock exhaust. I don't really care for the unbalanced look
at the rear, but I don't spend my time back there. It wasn't for looks, but
for performance (in my case). It does, however, warn people that you've
modified your car (can be both good and bad).

Looking forward...Chris

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4 (w/HKS Super Flo intake, TEC 15G turbos, bored
and polished throttle body, RC 560cc injectors, HKS fuel pump, GReddy PRofec
A boost controller, G-force ECU upgrade, HKS SBOV, custom intercoolers,
Predator dry cell battery, Magnecore 8.5mm wires, NGK double platinum plugs
gapped at .030", ATR downpipe and test pipe, GReddy catback exhaust, GReddy
turbo timer, Eibach 1" drop progressive springs, Michelin SX MXX3 Pilots)

-----Original Message-----
From: Vineet Singh [mailto:billi_gates@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 30, 1999 2:24 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Multi topic coverage here...

QUESTION... What are the cheapest/best Downpipes available for the TT?

Does anyone make an exhaust that goes from that "clamp" near the rear diff,
back? The rest of the pipe looks adequate for my goals (330hp).

Would a single large tip look stoopid on a 92 DS RT/TT? I want to save
weight, and cut down on fab time/price. Thanks!

Vineet Singh
Manuals On CD - http://manualcd.dsm.org Dimmed in memory of J. Carpenter
Club DSM A/T - http://at.dsm.org - Dimmed in memory of J. Carpenter
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 3 09:55:52 1999
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: ADMIN NOTICE, PLEASE READ!
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:54:00 -0700
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We have received information from Sirius, the folks who host our list,
that excessive "bounced messages" can threaten the existence of the
Team3S list. We admins are adding a rule, and PLEASE comply with it,
for it might be the most important rule we've got:

13. BOUNCED MESSAGES. The rules from SIRIUS govern here, and the
Team3S list may be SHUT DOWN if there are too many bounces. There are
three main reasons the Admins receive bounced messages, and here is
our policy for each--:

a). FORGETFULNESS: People forget..., and post to the list from an
email address OTHER than the one they are subscribed under. OK... We
understand that folks forget and post messages from one of their other
'unsubscribed' addresses, but PLEASE..., TRY to remember! We forward
you the bounce to remind you, but it's a 'pain' when you give us extra
work, and it endangers the list itself by adding to bounce traffic.

b). "FREE" EMAIL: These economy email services give you limited
amount of storage space, and only a limited number of emails can be
received before that mailbox is full. If you don't get your email
regularly and your "mailbox is full", every single subsequent Team3S
list message bounces back to US! (And we can't even send you a
notice, because that bounces too!) As soon as messages start bouncing
from your full mailbox, you will be removed from the Team3S list
immediately. If you can't check your mail regularly, we suggest you
subscribe to the digest instead of the main list.

c). CROSS-POSTING: We don't mind you being a member of-, or even
posting an identical message to- another S/3k list. That's your
personal choice. But DO NOT send ONE message to BOTH lists
simultaneously, or you will be removed from our list. (Here's what
happens: If the other list's address is on emails that come to
Team3S, every time one of our listmembers hits "reply to all", that
reply gets sent to (and BOUNCED back by) the other list!) This rule
extends to forwarding messages from other lists as well-- please
remove their address from the message header before posting it to the
Team3S list. You will receive a notice first, but if you cross post
regularly you will be removed. It creates automatic bounces which
threaten OUR list, and so it can not be permitted.


Thanks for your cooperation,

Bob Forrest,
Admin, Team3S


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 3 11:06:55 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "Murat Okcuoglu" <murat@ashacorp.com>,
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Subject: Re: Team3S: TMO Datalogger
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Murat, I've sent you the Excel file ;-)

Anyone else who's interested please email me privately and I can send you
the xls as well.

Later,
Roger
93'3000GT TT

>Roger, would it be possible for you to share data in ASCII or *.CSV format?
>I have this habit of analyzing data in 1000 different ways to bring the
most
>out of it.


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 3 11:07:22 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "Stealth List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: TMO Datalogger / first runs
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 19:49:04 +0200
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>The DSM Karmen-Vortex sensor's maximum frequency is 1600Hz. Maybe the
>sensor in our cars can go higher than this and Todd Day can change the
>top-end of the graph to display higher? Perhaps he only graphs to 1600Hz
>since the Datalogger was designed with a 1G DSM in mind to be logged.

Good input ! I already asked Todd but he told me that the ECU is not giving
the higher information. I'll ask again.

>Are we sure that the ECU is smart enough to compensate for temperature
>during WOT? The DSM ECU's aren't, they just pull fuel values from a static
>table mapped with RPM, Airflow, and barometric pressure during WOT
>operation. I don't think temperature compensation is part of the equation
>because there is no sensor measuring the actual intake temperatures while
on
>boost (after the intercoolers where it matters).

You may be very right and this is why I used "maybe" a lot. I'd really like
to see that our cars IAT is located after the intercoolers so it would make
more sense. It is a known secret that the values are taken from static maps
although we don't know if there is an offset variable in charge too. I'll do
some logs during the comming rainy days again and we can compare the data
then.

>During regular cruising where there isn't much boost I would expect that
>the ECU would make an estimate of air density using the air temperature
>sensor on the airflow sensor since the intake temps at the throttle body
>should be fairly close to the temps seen at the sensor.

Hmm, when I'm cruising at 90mph@4000 only throttle a little open the
intercoolers would cool the temperature down a lot and therefore the (high)
intake temperature is cooled down more. I hope to see the y-pipe temps
pretty soon.

>You are making a lot of assumptions about how the ECU works at WOT. If the
>ECU saw high ambient temps and was trying to maintain a particular "safe"
>A/F ratio target, then it should reduce fuel injection at higher
>temperatures as the in-cylinder air would be less dense and require less
>fuel.

So what does the ECU do at WOT ? As far as I remember the car will be in
open loop and therefore the O2 sensors are not regarded then. Am I wrong or
what ?

>At WOT, I don't think the intake temps are going to vary that much
>with the car on the road, at least not enough where the ECU programmers
>would include a bunch of code to attempt to predict a variable which they
>cannot measure. I think the ECU just takes its injection values from a
>table that's mapped straight to RPM, airflow, and barometric pressure just
>like the DSM ECU does.

Yeah, this could be true. Let's see what the future logs show.

>You'll see leaner values on the O2 sensor at
>lower temps, but it isn't because the injection rate has changed, it is
>because the intake charge is more dense due to the lower temps.

Also assumptions here and we'll see what we'll get.

>It would be best if we didn't have to infer the secrets. Has anyone
>decompiled the ECU code and figured out what exactly it is trying to do at
>WOT? Any of the chip tuners that we can ask?

G-Force will not speak about the stuff but will program a new EPROM for $150
at any time :-( I already hacked the programs but only located the tables
and do not understand the rest. I can modify the tables and I can also
emulate the EPROMS with a PC. But I do not have any time for doing this
during this summer.

Later,
Roger
93'3000GT TT


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 3 11:32:48 1999
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From: "Murat Okcuoglu" <murat@ashacorp.com>
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References: <004301beddda$f53a4bc0$e01de6c2@roger>
Subject: Team3S: air temp
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> >Are we sure that the ECU is smart enough to compensate for temperature
> >during WOT? The DSM ECU's aren't, they just pull fuel values from a
static
> >table mapped with RPM, Airflow, and barometric pressure during WOT
> >operation. I don't think temperature compensation is part of the
equation
> >because there is no sensor measuring the actual intake temperatures while
> on
> >boost (after the intercoolers where it matters).


late 86 Mitsu starions utilized an air temp sensor just in front of the TB.
It didnt seem to do any good, and the startegy was abondened in 87. they all
had karman vortex systems with the air temperature sensor.

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 3 13:20:31 1999
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Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 15:20:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: A "Punch" Question
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Greetings,

I've noticed that at times when I punch the throttle, I get varying
results. "Usually", I get the comfortable sensation of being pressed back
into my seat. (Or, if I'm in that part of the power curve, thrown back.)
But other times, the effect is much more restrained.

I can't find any pattern here. Sometimes going WOT at 3K in 3rd gear
gives me whiplash, sometimes it just "starts stepping out". It's the same
story up and down the spectrum. Uphill, downhill, level ground, day,
night, A/C on, A/C off, etc., no pattern.

Here are my guesses:
1. Varying fuel qualities. But I'm not getting any pre-detonation or
staggering, which I'd expect from bad fuel.

2. ECU "self-learning". Most of the time I don't jack-rabbit my starts,
don't spend a whole lot of time above 5K on the tach, and I'll sometimes
go for extended periods of time without WOT. Is the ECU smart enough to
recalibrate itself to what it has observed as my driving style, and change
how it reacts to WOT?

Any other ideas? Thanks.

Of course, even on a "bad day", my Stealth is *much* more gratifying under
WOT than my Jimmy... ;)

Dennis Moore
93 Stealth ES (with a soon-to-be-repaired 5-speed)
stealth@kiva.net

Yes, I'm afraid you *did* go to college for this job.

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 3 13:25:03 1999
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Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 15:24:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Stealth vs. Miata
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This is sorta off topic, so please send any replies to me privately.

While my Stealth is in the hospital, I'm driving my dad's Miata to and
from work. (OK, I'd rather have a 3K Spyder, but...) I've noticed that
it has a VERY different personality than my Stealth. For one thing, the
steering response seems a lot more "jittery" than my car. I'm wondering
how much of the difference is just, well, a difference, and how much of
it might be attributable to some problems on the Miata.

If any of you have some experience with driving Miatas, and could help
answer a couple of my questions, I'd like to hear from you.

Dennis Moore
93 Stealth ES
stealth@kiva.net

Yes, I'm afraid you *did* go to college for this job.

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 3 13:38:42 1999
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From: "Matt Jannusch" <mattj@fallon.com>
To: "Stealth List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: TMO Datalogger / first runs
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> You may be very right and this is why I used "maybe" a lot. I'd
> really like to see that our cars IAT is located after the
> intercoolers so it would make more sense. It is a known secret
> that the values are taken from static maps although we don't
> know if there is an offset variable in charge too. I'll do
> some logs during the comming rainy days again and we can
> compare the data then.

Yeah, I think the more data we can compile the closer we can get to
understanding what the ECU is doing. If I had an earlier VR4, I would
certainly own one of TMO's dataloggers! Is there anything similar available
for '95 cars?

> So what does the ECU do at WOT ? As far as I remember the car will be in
> open loop and therefore the O2 sensors are not regarded then. Am
> I wrong or what ?

Yes, this is correct. The question I was wondering about is whether or not
intake air temperature was part of the fuel injection equation. Its too bad
that we don't have an ECU expert like Todd Day who is willing to share his
knowlege with the public. Oh well...

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 3 13:45:15 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "Dennis Moore" <stealth@kiva.net>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Stealth vs. Miata (off topic)
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>If any of you have some experience with driving Miatas, and could help
>answer a couple of my questions, I'd like to hear from you.


... and keep the answers totally off the list !

Thanks,
Roger for the Admins


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 3 16:09:39 1999
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From: "Murat Okcuoglu" <murat@ashacorp.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990803150644.19369A-100000@sherrill.kiva.net>
Subject: Team3S: Knock at low RPM
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 16:05:02 -0700
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When starting from a stop, my engine knocks like '68 on unleaded.
this is for starts at around 1500 RPM. if I rev it up, it is O.K., but then
it is like a race start at every stop and go traffic start.

my engine is at less than 5K miles (warranty replacement, thanks Chrysler!),
well maintained and no mods other than manual boost valve.

I live in CA, the brand of gas doesn't seem to make a difference. I use
91RON premium.

the car is a '91

Any ideas???

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 3 16:12:58 1999
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From: "Murat Okcuoglu" <murat@ashacorp.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990803152029.19369B-100000@sherrill.kiva.net>
Subject: Team3S: ECU
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>From what year on, are 3S ECUs self learning?

Do all 3S ECUs have EEPROM or a custom chip?

Does the custom chip have an equivalent EEPROM or does reprogramming of our
ECUs require doughterboards?

just curious.

Murat

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From: "Simon Jones" <simon@3kgto.freeserve.co.uk>
To: "Stealth List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: TMO Datalogger / first runs
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 07:17:20 +0100
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Roger (or anyone),

If you can get a hex dump of the EPROM (Motorola S-Record is best) with any
info the tables addresses etc, I may be able to disassemble it. I'm
assuming that the ECU is Motorola 68K based (683xx from memory), since I
have 68k tools.


>>WOT? Any of the chip tuners that we can ask?
>
>G-Force will not speak about the stuff but will program a new EPROM for
$150
>at any time :-( I already hacked the programs but only located the tables
>and do not understand the rest. I can modify the tables and I can also
>emulate the EPROMS with a PC. But I do not have any time for doing this
>during this summer.
>

Regards,

Simon Jones
'94 GTO
simon@3kgto.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.3kgto.freeserve.co.uk


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 3 23:59:45 1999
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From: "Simon Jones" <simon@3kgto.freeserve.co.uk>
To: "3S Tech List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: OBDI & OBDII
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 07:47:35 +0100
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Hi All,

As I understand it, in the U.S., OBDII was fitted to all cars from '95 on.
Am I correct that ODBII cars have two O2 sensors, one before the pre-cat and
one after the main cat.
If this is the case, then my 1994 GTO imported from Japan is a little
unusual. First, it is 2nd Gen. shape (spotlights, not pop-ups), it is 5
speed and it also has an O2 sensor (or what looks like one) after the main
cat. What I would like to find out is whether it has OBDII.

Are the OBDI and ODBII diagnostic connectors different?, and are they
located in different places?

Also, does anyone have the specification of OBDII, or know where I can look
at it?

Thanks in advance,

Simon Jones
'94 GTO
simon@3kgto.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.3kgto.freeserve.co.uk


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 4 00:28:14 1999
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From: "Jeff" <spydervr4@home.com>
To: "Sirius" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: OBDI & OBDII
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 02:33:47 -0500
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My '95 Spyder has 4 O2 sensors: 2 on each bank, one before the precat and
one after. It has an OBDII diagnostics connector under the dash but it is
OBDI certified and not OBDII compatible (protocols are different, as
determined by an EASEsim datalogger). On the bottom side of my hood I have
a sticker that at the end of a long paragraph "OBDI Certified"

Hope this helps....

jeff
'95 Mitsubishi Spyder VR-4
'90 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

-----Original Message-----
From: Simon Jones <simon@3kgto.freeserve.co.uk>
To: 3S Tech List <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 2:00 AM
Subject: Team3S: OBDI & OBDII


>Hi All,
>
>As I understand it, in the U.S., OBDII was fitted to all cars from '95 on.
>Am I correct that ODBII cars have two O2 sensors, one before the pre-cat
and
>one after the main cat.
>If this is the case, then my 1994 GTO imported from Japan is a little
>unusual. First, it is 2nd Gen. shape (spotlights, not pop-ups), it is 5
>speed and it also has an O2 sensor (or what looks like one) after the main
>cat. What I would like to find out is whether it has OBDII.
>
>Are the OBDI and ODBII diagnostic connectors different?, and are they
>located in different places?
>
>Also, does anyone have the specification of OBDII, or know where I can look
>at it?
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Simon Jones
>'94 GTO
>simon@3kgto.freeserve.co.uk
>http://www.3kgto.freeserve.co.uk
>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 4 01:35:14 1999
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Reply-To: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: ECU
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:22:05 +0200
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To be honest, I never worked on a car that did not had a self learning ECU.
Ok, my car have already had pollution control device like EGR, cat, etc. and
I think with this learning ECUs have been invented.

>From what year on, are 3S ECUs self learning?

All years.

>Do all 3S ECUs have EEPROM or a custom chip?


This is a little different as the ECU has a microcontroller that does the
job. This is a microprocessor with internal ROM, some static RAM and some
registers to work with. The "learned" data is hold in a particular space in
the RAM and stays active while power is connected. Removing the battery will
clear this data after the the power supplys condensator lost it's stored
power.

The 3S ECU do not have an external PROM. I know some european cars that do
have I2C EEPROMs to store some information.

>Does the custom chip have an equivalent EEPROM or does reprogramming of our
>ECUs require doughterboards?

Yes, we need daughterboards. The G-Force ECU is a stock unit with the
microcontroller unsoldered and socketed onto the daughterboard. Additionally
the board contains two sockets for the EPROMs where you can put your own
program in. The internal ROM area of the microcontroller is disabled and the
datalines are wired to the EPROM sockets. None of the systems supports
EEPROMs.

Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 4 01:35:21 1999
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Reply-To: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "Simon Jones" <simon@3kgto.freeserve.co.uk>,
"Stealth List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: TMO Datalogger / first runs
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:39:17 +0200
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>If you can get a hex dump of the EPROM (Motorola S-Record is best) with any
>info the tables addresses etc, I may be able to disassemble it. I'm
>assuming that the ECU is Motorola 68K based (683xx from memory), since I
>have 68k tools.


I'm really not sure if it's a Motorola MC but I'll have a look tonight. I do
have hex dumps already and also found the timing and fuel maps/tables but I
haven't been able to read the EPROM into an S-record. I do have three
G-Force ECU sets that were easily to compare ;-) I do also have 68xx tools
but I can't remember the cause why I haven't used them.

I'll send you a file tonight privately.

Regards,
Roger


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 4 01:35:27 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "3S Tech List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: OBDI & OBDII
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:57:14 +0200
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>As I understand it, in the U.S., OBDII was fitted to all cars from '95 on.
>Am I correct that ODBII cars have two O2 sensors, one before the pre-cat
and
>one after the main cat.

I can't confirm this but the manual says that all cars made for California
have O2 sensors before the pre-cats and afterwards. This would make 4 in
total.

ODBII does the check if the cat converters are really working and this is
done by measuring the values before and after the cat.

>If this is the case, then my 1994 GTO imported from Japan is a little
>unusual. First, it is 2nd Gen. shape (spotlights, not pop-ups), it is 5
>speed and it also has an O2 sensor (or what looks like one) after the main
>cat.

After the main cat ? Are you sure ? I though the 2nd sensors are in the dp
after the pre-cats but I may be wrong. I'm pretty sure your car has also two
O2 sensors right before the pre-cats. Have a look down at the exhaust part
right after the front turbo and you'll find the 4-wired sensor there.

>What I would like to find out is whether it has OBDII.
>
>Are the OBDI and ODBII diagnostic connectors different?, and are they
>located in different places?

Yes, they are. Although in 94 there was something like a quasi ODBII and I
dunno when in 95 this has been changed. The real ODBI port is located close
to the fuse block close to your left foot but I think you also have a quasi
ODBII.

>Also, does anyone have the specification of OBDII, or know where I can look
>at it?

There are a lot ODBII papers on the web and I also saw an expensive book
($250 or so) that is available with all the specs. There is also an ODBII
reader software available but as far as I remember the stuff is damn
expensive.

Cheers,
Roger, Switzerland
93'3000GT TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 4 01:35:32 1999
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Reply-To: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Knock at low RPM
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:37:54 +0200
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First, I'd say to try higher octane gas and check if the knocking sounds
changes.

>my engine is at less than 5K miles (warranty replacement, thanks
Chrysler!),
>well maintained and no mods other than manual boost valve.

And what are the boost levels you have seen in the past 5k miles ? Just to
make sure as the high speed knock is not hearable.

PS: Why not asking Todd to hook up the datalogger for a run to see if it
really knocks or if the problem sits somewhere else (clutch, etc.)

Good luck,
Roger
93'3000GT TT



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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 4 05:23:22 1999
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From: "Johnson, Scott (CAP, ITS, CA)" <Scott.Johnson@gects.ge.com>
To: "'TEAM3S'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Rough Clutch Uptake in 1st. Diagnosis?
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 08:21:59 -0400
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Hi guys,

I hope someone can divert their attention from all this intense discussion
(very, very interesting, I might add) of Roger's dyno runs, etc., to help me
out here.

I've discovered after a weekend of aggressive driving of my TT (no racing,
just aggressive), it seems that my clutch seems to shudder when engaging
first gear unless I give it a lot of RPM's.

As an example, if I want to go through the drive through at the coffee shop,
that is the sort of situation where it seems rough in first gear as I engage
it. When I'm taking off from a stop light, if I'm not too gentle and give
it some RPM's it is okay, but below, say, 2500 RPM I have this problem.

It had never occurred before this weekend.

Does anyone know just what this might mean?

Could this mean that there is a problem with my clutch? Currently, all
fluids are stock, and perhaps changing them would help (i.e. to Redline)?
Perhaps it is something else entirely?

Thanks,
Scott
'93 R/T TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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Subject: Re: Team3S: TMO Datalogger / first runs
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>
> >If you can get a hex dump of the EPROM (Motorola S-Record is best) with
>any
> >info the tables addresses etc, I may be able to disassemble it. I'm
> >assuming that the ECU is Motorola 68K based (683xx from memory), since I
> >have 68k tools.
>

Just a thought here, but, since these cars are manufactured in Japan, it is
entirely likely that the chip is manufactured by a Japenese company. This
could be Toshiba, Matsushita or Mitsubishi.

Regards,
Dennis


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 4 07:10:08 1999
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Reply-To: <beking@home.com>
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: TMO Datalogger / first runs
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The processor is a 16 bit Mitsubishi 7700 series (roughly based on the
Motorola 6502). It uses an on board WO ROM which means messing with it
requires a daughtercard to intercept the normal operation of the processor.
TechTom charges around $300-$350 for the daughtercard and a few to several
thousand for the appropriate software to program it.

It'd be great to see an annotated disassembly of the dump from the processor
code to really see what the ECU does or wants to do under varying
circumstances. Anybody got a couple of years to spare?


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Dg B
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 6:46 AM
> To: robby@freesurf.ch; simon@3kgto.freeserve.co.uk;
> stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: TMO Datalogger / first runs
>
>
>
>
> >
> > >If you can get a hex dump of the EPROM (Motorola S-Record is
> best) with
> >any
> > >info the tables addresses etc, I may be able to disassemble it. I'm
> > >assuming that the ECU is Motorola 68K based (683xx from
> memory), since I
> > >have 68k tools.
> >
>
> Just a thought here, but, since these cars are manufactured in
> Japan, it is
> entirely likely that the chip is manufactured by a Japenese
> company. This
> could be Toshiba, Matsushita or Mitsubishi.
>
> Regards,
> Dennis
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 4 07:50:45 1999
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From: "Dg B" <dbretton@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Upgrading brakes -proportioning valve-
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 10:50:22 EDT
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Hello folks!

I know that the subject of brake upgrades has been a popular one in the
past, with various reviews of various set-ups.
Most recently, the Porsche 993 bi-turbo set-up has been considered a popular
alternative.

One of the complaints about the braking systems of the 3/S cars has been the
lack of support of the rears in assisting the stopping of the vehicle.

Has anyone considered using an other-than-OEM proportioning valve for our
cars?
A portion of the following web page discusses changing out stock Porshce
proportioning valve with the one from a 993 bi-turbo:
http://www.pca.org/rrr/tech/faq14.htm

If this could be done to our 3/S cars, wouldn't this help slow these fat
hogs down? ;)

What do you think?

Regards,
Dennis


_______________________________________________________________
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 4 08:23:12 1999
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From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Minnesota Gathering page is up
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 10:22:48 CDT
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Hey everyone,

Thats right!! The Lake Minnetonka Gathering page is up. Its at:
http://www.mn3s.org/lake.html There are lots of pics. I bet it makes all
of you wish you lived in Minnesota. :)

The "All Mitsubishi Cookout and Car Show" is coming up on the 28th of
August, if any of you Midwest people would like to come, let me know. The
details on that are at http://www.mn3s.org/all_mitsubishi.html

One last piece of news. Matt at Accelerated Accessories is now carrying the
Spearco Water Injection Kits, if your interested, give him a buzz at
301-393-8800.

later,
Curt G,
95 R/T TT
and author of Minnesota 3/S at: http://www.mn3s.org


_______________________________________________________________
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 4 09:34:56 1999
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From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
To: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>,
"team 3si" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: high tech coatings
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:38:11 -0500
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I have Swain Coatings on my heads, exhaust manifolds, Pre-cats and turbine
housings.

I have been really impressed to how much cooler the engine compartment is
now.


Brad
Check out my home page: http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com ICQ# 3612682

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Jim Berry
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 12:03 AM
To: team 3si
Subject: Team3S: high tech coatings

For our more affluent members with an unlimited budget ---- rotor/caliper
and header coatings. plus just about any other engine part you might want
to protect.

Jim Berry

http://www.swaintech.com/index.shtml

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 4 11:14:00 1999
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From: "Murat Okcuoglu" <murat@ashacorp.com>
To: "'TEAM3S'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <592462DF1F35D21199AC00062B0008F702072ABD@MSX01TORCITSGE.GECTS.GE.COM>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rough Clutch Uptake in 1st. Diagnosis?
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:09:23 -0700
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> I've discovered after a weekend of aggressive driving of my TT (no racing,
> just aggressive), it seems that my clutch seems to shudder when engaging
> first gear unless I give it a lot of RPM's.
>

Your clutch is saying goodbye.

it might be due to uneven wear aptterns or warped components, anyway, only
replacing them will fix it.

If you are not ready for the expense, do not worry, it may get slightly
better after some mild use,

the only risk is the vibration will wear out components on your driveline.

no fluid change will help you.

In my time, we used talcum powder or portland cement to dry out any oil
deposits on the lining during a race. some guys even used coca cola on
slipping clutches.

I hope this helps. good luck

Murat

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 4 21:36:53 1999
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From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <003701beda0d$e04a7a80$558d83d8@RGERL012599_000.peoplesoft.com> <005301beda29$b8c0a5e0$198d0818@msnv1.occa.home.com> <37A3F36B.ED4F25A6@execpc.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Compressor Efficiency Theory, HP 9B vs 13G
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 21:35:09 -0700
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Sorry for the delay in responding to your reply to my post --- we may
have to take Rogers keyboard away from him for a while, I spend to
much time trying to understand his nuggets of wisdom :o)
As to your response, I am visualizing a 3D graph with the x-axis as the
airflow [ CFM ], the y-axis as the boost [ PSI ], and the z-axis as an
efficiency [ 0 to 100% ]. In the middle is a performance topographical
mountain with efficiency as the altitude.
What I don't understand is where the 300+ degree turbo outlet temp
came from. It is well in excess of compression heating --- 1 BAR should
double the temp from approximately 100 degrees to 200 degrees. The temp
referred to is three times the input air temp. At a minimum the turbo
outlet temp should be dependent on the condition of the turbo --- if it's
cold the temp should be lower etc. the heat has to come from somewhere,
I don't buy into this beating the air concept.
Do you have some graphs or can you point me at some sites that explain
the actions taking place.

Jim Berry

> RE: 9B vs 13G compressor heating air/horsepower differences:
>
> The mechanical DEVICE one uses to compress air imparts heat to the
> air, which is above and beyond the simple physics of compressible
> gas heating up on compression

> On a turbo, the heat imparted to the volume of air compressed is
> graphically depicted on the "compressor map", is a 3-D graph.
> On the left (of a 2-D map on a sheet of paper) is the
> "pressure ratio"=boost. On the bottom is the
> "air flow" = pounds per minute. Coming out toward you as an
> "island" in the middle of the graph is an oval-shaped area, with
> several "ovals" each inside the other, representing "Efficiency
> Islands"...SO, at a CERTAIN BOOST and a CERTAIN
> AIRFLOW you can find WHICH EFFICIENCY level the compressor
> is at. Generally, a turbo ranges between 50% and 80% efficient;
> 60% is the lower level desirable, and the higher the better. As you
> can see, a turbo operating at 60% efficiency at high rpm and high
> boost (9B at high rpm/power) will impart more heat to the charge
> than a WELL-PICKED turbo operating at 70-75% efficiency.
>
> At 20psi boost, turbo outlet temps are 320 F at 70% compressor
> efficiency island. If you have 60% efficiency, that would be 373 F
> or so. There is about 1% more power for every 10 degrees lower
> intake temp, so the 53 degree difference would be about 25 hp, or
> 2mph in quartermile.


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 5 08:31:25 1999
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From: "Murat Okcuoglu" <murat@ashacorp.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <003701beda0d$e04a7a80$558d83d8@RGERL012599_000.peoplesoft.com> <005301beda29$b8c0a5e0$198d0818@msnv1.occa.home.com> <37A3F36B.ED4F25A6@execpc.com> <000a01bedefb$e7087000$198d0818@msnv1.occa.home.com>
Subject: Team3S: HP 9B vs 13G
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:26:46 -0700
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This is what I understand :

our cars are offered with 9Bs in the US and 13Gs elsewhere.

There is a US turbo shop who modifies 13G compressors and sells them as 15G
for the 3S

Please comment and correct.

Also, what are the turbo upgrades offered by HK$ and Greddy? are they any
good? are thay worth the expense?

Thanks!

Murat

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 5 08:38:10 1999
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Reply-To: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: HP 9B vs 13G
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 17:37:52 +0200
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> our cars are offered with 9Bs in the US and 13Gs elsewhere.


I've only seen the 13G in Europe sold stock. Not Australia.

>> There is a US turbo shop who modifies 13G compressors and sells them as
15G
>for the 3S

The 9B and 13G do have the same 04 compressor housing. The design and the
blades of the 13G ocmpressor wheel is different. I'm not sure but I thing
the 15 needs another housing.

Roger
93'3000GT TT

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 5 08:45:05 1999
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From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'Murat Okcuoglu'" <murat@ashacorp.com>
Cc: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: HP 9B vs 13G
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:44:40 -0700
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Murat...

According to TEC (who buys direct from the factory) Mitsubishi claims that
9Bs are stock on ALL 1st and 2nd generation VR4s/Stealth TTs. However, we
KNOW for a fact that at least one VR4 in Europe came stock with 13Gs (Roger
Gerl's).

TEC (Turbo Engineering Corporation) modifies 13Gs into 15Gs. They also do a
variety of larger turbos.

I don't know that we have any listmembers who have experimented with other
variations (HKS, GReddy, Garrett, etc.).

Looking forward...Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Murat Okcuoglu [mailto:murat@ashacorp.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 8:27 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: HP 9B vs 13G


This is what I understand :

our cars are offered with 9Bs in the US and 13Gs elsewhere.

There is a US turbo shop who modifies 13G compressors and sells them as 15G
for the 3S

Please comment and correct.

Also, what are the turbo upgrades offered by HK$ and Greddy? are they any
good? are thay worth the expense?

Thanks!

Murat
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 5 08:56:29 1999
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Message-ID: <002301bedf5a$f9a5dcc0$83e586cd@sch>
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Off Topic: Trailer Hitch Q...
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:53:44 -0700
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Has anyone ever installed a trailer hitch on one of our cars? I
need to get one (and a lightweight trailer), but I'd like it to
be removable, since it's gotta be serious ugly to have one on...
But it can't be any more ugly than what I'm doing now...

I've got a 12-foot inflatable boat I go fishing with, and even
with a blanket on the roof, trunk, and spoiler surfaces, I'm sure
it causes a bit of abrasion (it's only about 80 Lbs). I'm not
really fond of the funny looks I get from the cops, either, since
it barely lets the tail lights show, and sticks out over the
windshield more than a foot... Not to mention the kids passing
in their Miatas laughing and pointing! :-) Yeah, this would be
a great opportunity to "drop shit on Bob", but please do it
privately, since it's off-topic. Post to the list only if you
have a real solution, please... :-)

TIA,

Forrest <=== (private flame suit on...)


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 5 09:24:32 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Exhaust Upgrade = Power? (pt.2)
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>
>
> Yes, I'd say that replacing the stock exhaust helps to reduce trap speed and
> et's. But I'd also say that only acat-back does not give you any pony. Each
> car is different and therefore I agree that we'd say due to the better
> exhaust flow the turbos are able to hold boost longer and therefore the
> power curve falls down at somewhat higher rpm than with stock. This will
> result in better trap speed and better torque curve over the rpm but I'm
> pretty sure that there will not be any higher peak hp or tourqe. What do you
> think ?
>

OK, I am on vacation now so I should not be replying to this but...
I do not have access to our dyno sheet right now but if I remember correctly, Jim's
car peaked HP at about 5k and then started dropping off. My car started LEVELING off at
about 5k, then peaked at 5800 RPM, with it starting to drop off at 6K. Therefore, while
the exhaust MAY not increase peak HP, it does allow you to shift at higher RPMs which I
believe will give you faster times/trap speeds in the 1/4 mile.

Now on to intake temps. About a month ago I installed the temp gauge Roger Jim and
I used for the dyno sessions in my intake, about 4 inches from the throttle body inside
the Y-pipe. I have been monitoring this ever since and I could probably write a
dissertation on it right now. However, all of you drag racers out there really need to
install one of these. I have discovered the following:

1) At highway speeds with the boost at -5 or below, the temp difference between
ambient and throttle intake is about 10 degrees F. Which to me sounds pretty good.
2) On a 1/4 mile run, with 75 deg. ambient, 89 deg. intake at the start, by the
time I shift into fourth, the intake temp has rose to 157 deg F (15 PSI was max boost).
Does this mean the intercoolers suck or are very efficient? I have no idea at this
point.
3) If I turn off the car, after fully heating up, let it sit 10-15 minutes, then
start it back up, the intake temp is about 20-25 deg above ambient and it takes about 10
minutes of HIGHWAY driving to get it back down to 10 degrees difference. For dragracers
that let their cars sit between runs, this is something that you should REALLY be
monitoring.
4) During our dyno runs the ambient was 50 F deg the intake temp at the start of my
dyno was 104 deg F and the intake peak after about 20 seconds of running at 12 psi was
224 deg F!!! So I do think that the fan was not very effective. However, I cannot
compare this to the real world, because I have not been able to find the proper hill
where I can maintain 12 psi of boost in fourth gear. The most I have been able to
maintain was about 10 seconds which resulted in a peak of 139 deg F.

My point of all this testing has been to prove my theory that the stock intercoolers
are very inefficient. I have discovered that they are very effective for what the car
was designed for- Gran Touring. At sustained highway speeds, the intercoolers work fine
(10-15 deg F difference at 120 MPH with cruise control). But I believe they are
ineffective for short burst (1/4 mile and autocrossing) I have been doing all this
testing because I am considering purchasing Altered Atmospheres front-mount intercooler
upgrade. I think that a center mount intercooler is much more effective for 1/4 mile
and autocrossing. Or anyplace where you are on and off the turbos a lot.

I am sure this will generate so discussion, but I may not be able to respond
immediately, Sorry...

Mike C.
0018
'95 Stealth RT TT
K&N, Borla cat back, test pipe, Alamo DP, stock NOT gutted precats, 15 PSI Blitz.

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 5 09:29:14 1999
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Subject: Team3S: 280 Z turbo on an NA Stealth?
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I was looking at a turbo from an 82' 280 ZX and it apears to be more of
a motor-driven supercharger than a exhaust turbo. Does anybody know If
this would be installable on an NA S/3 car? If the Motor can be wired
in, and maybe tied to the tachometer...There might be another way to
"supercharge" NA S/3 cars. Anyone with experience in older Datsuns,
please speak up!

Thanks,
Matt
#311
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 5 11:01:32 1999
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From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Off Topic: Trailer Hitch Q...
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At 08:53 AM 8/5/99 -0700, Bob Forrest wrote:
>Has anyone ever installed a trailer hitch on one of our cars? I
>need to get one (and a lightweight trailer), but I'd like it to
>be removable, since it's gotta be serious ugly to have one on...
, but please do it privately, since it's off-topic. Post to the list only
if you
>have a real solution, please... :-)
>
No, please post it to the list or include me in the private postings. For
racers, it's very topical.

I have been seriously considering a trailer myself to haul race tires and
stuff around.
I know, I know, 4 race wheels and tires will fit in there somehow, but they
don't leave much room for anything else, and I have to haul all this stuff
300 miles between events. I really don't want a race tire in the passenger
seat for 300 miles.

I've seen racers with small trailers for such purposes, and have been
wondering if it's possible to affix a trailer hitch on our cars.

Or maybe a cartop carrier?

Please post solutions to the list.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 5 11:19:12 1999
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Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 13:19:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Off Topic: Trailer Hitch Q...
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I don't any thing about this product, but I found a vendor who says they
have one for our cars:

http://www.hitch-web.com/vhitch.asp?Veh_Type=Car&VehNo=10256&Class=CL1&bumper=None

Hope it helps.

Dennis Moore
stealth@kiva.net

Yes, I'm afraid you *did* go to college for this job.

On Thu, 5 Aug 1999, Bob Forrest wrote:

> Has anyone ever installed a trailer hitch on one of our cars? I
> need to get one (and a lightweight trailer), but I'd like it to
> be removable, since it's gotta be serious ugly to have one on...
> But it can't be any more ugly than what I'm doing now...
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 5 11:44:09 1999
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Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 14:44:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Team3S: Off Topic: Trailer Hitch Q...
From: "Ian Marks" <ianmarks@earthlink.net>
To: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>, Bob Forrest <bf@bobforrest.com>,
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
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Rich,
I had a receiver hitch installed by U-haul last summer and it's
worked out just fine. The guy even did a nice job with the wiring harness
(surprise from U-haul!). I originally got the hitch for a bike/ski rack but
it also accepts a ball hitch attachment for trailers etc. . . It cost about
eighty bucks installed. I don't think it's that noticeable really, all that
shows is a small black metal bar and the square hole of the hitch itself. I
use a Rhode Gear bike rack with a ski attachment and it's absolutly
excellent. Nothing touches the car and the skiis are behind so there's no
added wind noise inside the car. I have also hauled a small trailer with it
(U-haul's smallest) with no problems. In fact even with the trailer my
Stealth was still quite comfortable doing 85mph in 5th gear!
You can call a local U-haul and they will have to order the hitch (it's
technically called a 1 1/4" receiver hitch). I can't remember if the ball
attachment was included or not. Other vendors will be able to do this as
well if you have some reservations about your local U-haul messing with your
baby.
Good luck.

-----
Ian Marks
'94 Stealth RT/TT
Rochester, NY

----------
>From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
>To: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Subject: Re: Team3S: Off Topic: Trailer Hitch Q...
>Date: Thu, Aug 5, 1999, 11:15 AM
>

> At 08:53 AM 8/5/99 -0700, Bob Forrest wrote:
>>Has anyone ever installed a trailer hitch on one of our cars? I
>>need to get one (and a lightweight trailer), but I'd like it to
>>be removable, since it's gotta be serious ugly to have one on...
> , but please do it privately, since it's off-topic. Post to the list only
> if you
>>have a real solution, please... :-)
>>
> No, please post it to the list or include me in the private postings. For
> racers, it's very topical.
>
> I have been seriously considering a trailer myself to haul race tires and
> stuff around.
> I know, I know, 4 race wheels and tires will fit in there somehow, but they
> don't leave much room for anything else, and I have to haul all this stuff
> 300 miles between events. I really don't want a race tire in the passenger
> seat for 300 miles.
>
> I've seen racers with small trailers for such purposes, and have been
> wondering if it's possible to affix a trailer hitch on our cars.
>
> Or maybe a cartop carrier?
>
> Please post solutions to the list.
>
> Rich/old poop/94 VR4
>
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 5 15:02:32 1999
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To: <mike.chapleski@ibm.net>
Cc: "3/S Sirius Mailing List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Exhaust Upgrade / intake temps
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 00:01:19 +0200
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Hey Mike, good to hear from you :))

It'll become very interesting as I just installed the temp probe as well.
We'll see if we gonna find the same difference as we saw on the dyno.

> 1) At highway speeds with the boost at -5 or below, the temp
difference between
>ambient and throttle intake is about 10 degrees F. Which to me sounds
pretty good.

Yes, the temp of the discharged air is pretty low then. Where have you
measured ambient temp ?

> 2) On a 1/4 mile run, with 75 deg. ambient, 89 deg. intake at the
start, by the
>time I shift into fourth, the intake temp has rose to 157 deg F (15 PSI was
max boost).
>Does this mean the intercoolers suck or are very efficient? I have no idea
at this
>point.

Hmm, this is after about 15 seconds with ca. 12 seconds of full boost.
Interesting for sure, but I have no conclusion either.

> 3) If I turn off the car, after fully heating up, let it sit 10-15
minutes, then
>start it back up, the intake temp is about 20-25 deg above ambient and it
takes about 10
>minutes of HIGHWAY driving to get it back down to 10 degrees difference.
For dragracers
>that let their cars sit between runs, this is something that you should
REALLY be
>monitoring.

Yes, popping up the hood helps for sure.

> 4) During our dyno runs the ambient was 50 F deg the intake temp at the
start of my
>dyno was 104 deg F and the intake peak after about 20 seconds of running at
12 psi was
>224 deg F!!! So I do think that the fan was not very effective. However,
I cannot
>compare this to the real world, because I have not been able to find the
proper hill
>where I can maintain 12 psi of boost in fourth gear. The most I have been
able to
>maintain was about 10 seconds which resulted in a peak of 139 deg F.

Hmm, what I remember was a peak reading on my car of 120°F (I hope it was F
and not C !) and I thought yours and Jims was about 9 - 20 °F more and I do
not remember such high temps. Anyways, I'll try to record these temps on the
dyno this time (together with boost).

> My point of all this testing has been to prove my theory that the stock
intercoolers
>are very inefficient.

I'd more say that they have to work overtime as the turbos are working in
their inefficient region ! Therefore they produce much to high discharge
temperatures compared to the boost. It would maybe a good idea to place a
probe into the IC pipe that comes from the rear turbo and another one after
the IC. This will give you the real efficiency of the intercooler (amount of
air / boost against temperature drop)

> I have discovered that they are very effective for what the car
>was designed for- Gran Touring. At sustained highway speeds, the
intercoolers work fine
>(10-15 deg F difference at 120 MPH with cruise control). But I believe
they are
>ineffective for short burst (1/4 mile and autocrossing) I have been doing
all this
>testing because I am considering purchasing Altered Atmospheres front-mount
intercooler
>upgrade. I think that a center mount intercooler is much more effective
for 1/4 mile
>and autocrossing. Or anyplace where you are on and off the turbos a lot.

I'm sure that a FMIC is a good thing although we have to get some real
figure too. Please note that at a specific temperature on the inlet of the
IC and high boost not enough neergy can be taken off the air. Here the
design of the piping, endtanks and cooling finns is very important.

An alternative is ... Water Injection :)) Well, one jet is placed in the iC
pipe on the front and a larger one in the y-pipe. The first cools the air
from the rear charger and supports the intercoolers. The second cools both
temps in the y-pipe and is also in charge to control detonation. So with a
single ERL system for $500 you have two problems solved against the $1500 -
$2000 intercooler upgrade solution. Investing around $950 for the fully 3D
system I installed provides me with all the adjustability for the individual
mods on the car. This is why a FMIC is now sitting around in my garage :(

Cheers,
Roger
93'3000GT TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 5 16:44:43 1999
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From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
To: "3/S Sirius Mailing List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Exhaust Upgrade / intake temps
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 18:47:58 -0500
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Real world numbers on my car are:


In degrees Fahrenheit:

Inlet at turbo: 275degrees
Outlet at throttle body 125 degrees.

Temp outside 96 degrees with ~50% humidity
Figure asphalt temp to be ~150-175 degrees.

This is with the front mount setup that I built.

Problems that still have not been corrected:

Extended hard driving causes the engine water temp to get above acceptable
levels.
Cure on the way: Custom radiator, and higher CFM electric fans.

I would not use this setup with road racing due to the above problem.
However I am sure I will correct the problem by doubling the water capacity
of the radiator.



Brad
Check out my home page: http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com ICQ# 3612682

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of R.G.
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 5:01 PM
To: mike.chapleski@ibm.net
Cc: 3/S Sirius Mailing List
Subject: Re: Team3S: Exhaust Upgrade / intake temps

Hey Mike, good to hear from you :))

It'll become very interesting as I just installed the temp probe as well.
We'll see if we gonna find the same difference as we saw on the dyno.

> 1) At highway speeds with the boost at -5 or below, the temp
difference between
>ambient and throttle intake is about 10 degrees F. Which to me sounds
pretty good.

Yes, the temp of the discharged air is pretty low then. Where have you
measured ambient temp ?

> 2) On a 1/4 mile run, with 75 deg. ambient, 89 deg. intake at the
start, by the
>time I shift into fourth, the intake temp has rose to 157 deg F (15 PSI was
max boost).
>Does this mean the intercoolers suck or are very efficient? I have no idea
at this
>point.

Hmm, this is after about 15 seconds with ca. 12 seconds of full boost.
Interesting for sure, but I have no conclusion either.


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 5 16:52:04 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Exhaust Upgrade / intake temps
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> Real world numbers on my car are:
>
>
> In degrees Fahrenheit:
>
> Inlet at turbo: 275degrees
> Outlet at throttle body 125 degrees.
>
> Temp outside 96 degrees with ~50% humidity
> Figure asphalt temp to be ~150-175 degrees.
>
> This is with the front mount setup that I built.
>



Do you have any figures with the OEM intercoolers for comparison?
how much boost do you run?
what was the boost history and vehicle speed for above numbers?

Thanks for sharing the info!

Murat

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 5 17:18:45 1999
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From: "Chris Chiasson" <cender@email.msn.com>
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References: <003001bed361$f184c010$2d8a83d8@RGERL012599_000.peoplesoft.com> <3796D38F.9362EEC6@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rim question
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 19:16:28 -0500
Organization: Louisiana State University
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where is the web page that shows the wheels?
did someone post the offset for the 18x9.0 wheels yet? what was it?
----- Original Message -----
From: David Chen <neubine@ix.netcom.com>
To: R.G. <robby@freesurf.ch>; Team3S <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 3:17 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rim question


> Hey R.G.
>
> I paid about $3000 for all three.... however these were at a special
price.
> normaly they go for about $700 a piece.
> BTW My friends call me the banana boat rocket =)
>
> Neubine@ix.netcom.com
>
> "R.G." wrote:
>
> > VERY COOL, nice, hot, great !
> >
> > I really love these wheels and your car looks Banana-cool. How much did
you
> > paid for the set without the rubber ?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Roger
> > 93'3000GT TT
> >
> > >> Dave, do you have any pic of the rims and eventually on the car ?
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> Roger
> > >> 93'3000GT TT
> > >>
> > >> > I personally got 18 x 9.0 all around. I've got the Blitz Techno Z1
and
> > the
> > >> reason is
> > >> >that it's perfectly wide and making them all the same width makes it
> > easy
> > >> to rotate
> > >> >tires. Also stock has them all the same so it might be advisable to
> > follow
> > >> what the
> > >> >factory has. Also 18 x 10 in the rear is gonna stick out of the
fenders
> > a
> > >> little and
> > >> >definatly stick out alot in the front. You don't want to look like a
low
> > >> rider do ya. =)
> > >
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 5 17:39:54 1999
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From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
To: "3/S Sirius Mailing List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: intake temps
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 19:43:11 -0500
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I did not check OEM numbers I am assuming the other posts reflected the
OEM numbers.

As for speed.. I started the run at ~40mph, and finished just on the other
side of 160mph.


Brad
Check out my home page: http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com ICQ# 3612682

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Murat Okcuoglu
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 6:47 PM
To: 3/S Sirius Mailing List
Subject: Re: Team3S: Exhaust Upgrade / intake temps


> Real world numbers on my car are:
>
>
> In degrees Fahrenheit:
>
> Inlet at turbo: 275degrees
> Outlet at throttle body 125 degrees.
>
> Temp outside 96 degrees with ~50% humidity
> Figure asphalt temp to be ~150-175 degrees.
>
> This is with the front mount setup that I built.
>



Do you have any figures with the OEM intercoolers for comparison?
how much boost do you run?
what was the boost history and vehicle speed for above numbers?

Thanks for sharing the info!

Murat

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 5 17:40:10 1999
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From: "Carlos Q" <pir8ska@shadow.net>
To: "Team3s list" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: 3" CAT v.s. straight pipe
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 20:46:32 -0400
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is there going to be a difference at all between a 3-inch, high-flow cat =
and a 3-inch section of pipe? Just curious as i have the atr eliminator =
downpipe, but i would also like for my children to be able to breathe =
=3D)

thanks,
Carlos

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3612.1706"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>is there going to be a difference at =
all between=20
a 3-inch, high-flow cat and a 3-inch section of pipe? Just curious as i =
have the=20
atr eliminator downpipe, but i would also like for my children to be =
able to=20
breathe =3D)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Carlos</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BEDF83.99BC0AE0--

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 5 18:18:18 1999
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From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: HP 9B vs 13G
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 20:21:37 -0500
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The HKS and Greddy are both 13G turbos.. The very same you can get for about
1/2 the price at your local turbo shop.

Both kits do come with new gaskets, and if I am correct new oil return
lines.


Brad
Check out my home page: http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com ICQ# 3612682

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Chris Winkley
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 10:45 AM
To: 'Murat Okcuoglu'
Cc: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: HP 9B vs 13G

Also, what are the turbo upgrades offered by HK$ and Greddy? are they any
good? are thay worth the expense?

Thanks!


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 5 19:41:05 1999
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Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 21:41:00 -600
Subject: Re: Team3S: Off Topic: Trailer Hitch Q...
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>Has anyone ever installed a trailer hitch on one of our cars? I
>need to get one (and a lightweight trailer), but I'd like it to
>be removable, since it's gotta be serious ugly to have one on...
>But it can't be any more ugly than what I'm doing now...

I have a trailer hitch on my 95 VR-4...we use it with out tire trailer as we
travel around the MidWest Autocrossing. U-Haul had one listed for my car, ordered
and installed it for me. No problem... just some funny looks and comments like
"I never installed a hitch on a car like THIS before!"

As far as looks, you get some REALLY funny looks cruising the highways with
tires in tow! But even with the hitch on the car doesn't look bad .. and the
tow ball itself does come off for better looks when you aren't using it. If
you want to see some pictures I'll take some this weekend and send you the URL
next week.

NOTE: I wouldn't pull anything heavier than 8 tires and associated outdoor gear
(approx 500 lbs) with one of our cars. 6th gear is useless under 80MPH pulling
any weight.

Nissa
95 VR-4

Don't mess in the affairs of dragons.
For you are crunchy and go good with ketchup.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 5 19:46:48 1999
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Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 19:46:41 -0700
From: Bruce Body <bbody@pacbell.net>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Off Topic: Trailer Hitch Q...
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Turbo guys beware! The owners manuals for both turbo cars I've owned
specifically state DO NOT tow anything with the car. Remember, the
turbos boost under load. You don't want to be pushing 12+ psi @ 2000
rpms.

Bruce
3Si #0243
95 VR4

Bob Forrest wrote:
>
> Has anyone ever installed a trailer hitch on one of our cars? I
> need to get one (and a lightweight trailer), but I'd like it to
> be removable, since it's gotta be serious ugly to have one on...
> But it can't be any more ugly than what I'm doing now...
>
> I've got a 12-foot inflatable boat I go fishing with, and even
> with a blanket on the roof, trunk, and spoiler surfaces, I'm sure
> it causes a bit of abrasion (it's only about 80 Lbs). I'm not
> really fond of the funny looks I get from the cops, either, since
> it barely lets the tail lights show, and sticks out over the
> windshield more than a foot... Not to mention the kids passing
> in their Miatas laughing and pointing! :-) Yeah, this would be
> a great opportunity to "drop shit on Bob", but please do it
> privately, since it's off-topic. Post to the list only if you
> have a real solution, please... :-)
>
> TIA,
>
> Forrest <=== (private flame suit on...)
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 5 20:00:47 1999
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Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 20:00:27 -0700
From: Bruce Body <bbody@pacbell.net>
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To: "Wendlandt, Mark (MN51)" <MWendlan@cfsmo.honeywell.com>
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It's actually an steel adapter, not a bracket. It looks like the DSM
valve
bolts directly to the IC pipe, whereas ours clamps to a hose connected
to the Y pipe. This adapter bolts to the 1G DSM valve and allows
clamping
to the Y pipe hose with no fabrication. I have no pictures, but the
assembly looks stock. I bought the assembly from Buschur but don't know
if they sell only the adapter. I'd call them and ask since they
fabricated the part.

"Wendlandt, Mark (MN51)" wrote:
>
> Bruce,
>
> What is this metal bracket you are talking about. Is this used to mount the
> BPV or is it an adapter so that our hoses fit on the DSM BPV.
>
> i.e. can you get the DSM BPV installed without the bracket?
>
> Do you have any pictures?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark Wendlandt
> 91RT/TT
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Mark Wendlandt Honeywell CASSPO-Inertial Support
> Phone: 612-957-3736 Pager: 612-601-0881
> Email: Mark.Wendlandt@cfsmo.honeywell.com
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 6 01:02:52 1999
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Message-ID: <01BEDFB7.D2312D40.mdorsey@mindspring.com>
From: Michael <mdorsey@mindspring.com>
Reply-To: "mdorsey@mindspring.com" <mdorsey@mindspring.com>
To: "stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Off Topic: Trailer Hitch Q...
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 02:54:08 -0500
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Any idea how much weight it adds to the car?

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Marks [SMTP:ianmarks@earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 2:44 PM
To: Merritt; Bob Forrest; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Off Topic: Trailer Hitch Q...

Rich,
I had a receiver hitch installed by U-haul last summer and it's
worked out just fine. The guy even did a nice job with the wiring harness
(surprise from U-haul!). I originally got the hitch for a bike/ski rack but
it also accepts a ball hitch attachment for trailers etc. . . It cost about
eighty bucks installed. I don't think it's that noticeable really, all that
shows is a small black metal bar and the square hole of the hitch itself. I
use a Rhode Gear bike rack with a ski attachment and it's absolutly
excellent. Nothing touches the car and the skiis are behind so there's no
added wind noise inside the car. I have also hauled a small trailer with it
(U-haul's smallest) with no problems. In fact even with the trailer my
Stealth was still quite comfortable doing 85mph in 5th gear!
You can call a local U-haul and they will have to order the hitch (it's
technically called a 1 1/4" receiver hitch). I can't remember if the ball
attachment was included or not. Other vendors will be able to do this as
well if you have some reservations about your local U-haul messing with your
baby.
Good luck.

-----
Ian Marks
'94 Stealth RT/TT
Rochester, NY

----------
>From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
>To: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Subject: Re: Team3S: Off Topic: Trailer Hitch Q...
>Date: Thu, Aug 5, 1999, 11:15 AM
>

> At 08:53 AM 8/5/99 -0700, Bob Forrest wrote:
>>Has anyone ever installed a trailer hitch on one of our cars? I
>>need to get one (and a lightweight trailer), but I'd like it to
>>be removable, since it's gotta be serious ugly to have one on...
> , but please do it privately, since it's off-topic. Post to the list only
> if you
>>have a real solution, please... :-)
>>
> No, please post it to the list or include me in the private postings. For
> racers, it's very topical.
>
> I have been seriously considering a trailer myself to haul race tires and
> stuff around.
> I know, I know, 4 race wheels and tires will fit in there somehow, but they
> don't leave much room for anything else, and I have to haul all this stuff
> 300 miles between events. I really don't want a race tire in the passenger
> seat for 300 miles.
>
> I've seen racers with small trailers for such purposes, and have been
> wondering if it's possible to affix a trailer hitch on our cars.
>
> Or maybe a cartop carrier?
>
> Please post solutions to the list.
>
> Rich/old poop/94 VR4
>
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 6 01:32:02 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>,
"Stealth List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Exhaust Upgrade / intake temps
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 10:22:00 +0200
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Brad,

Thanks for the figures. I'm pretty sure the higher water temp is caused by
the FMIC. Although its core size of it is not that large it may be effective
in heat absorbing and therefore leaves a lot to the radiator. I raced my car
a whole morning on the small track at the driving school with only speeds of
60mph max (very short) and never saw any high water temps.

Just a short question :

>Inlet at turbo: 275degrees


Do I understand this correctly : Inlet at turbo, you mean the air sucked in
before the turbo ? Or is this the discharge temp at the IC inlet ? The later
would make more sense to me.

>Outlet at throttle body 125 degrees.
>
>Temp outside 96 degrees with ~50% humidity
>Figure asphalt temp to be ~150-175 degrees.
>
>This is with the front mount setup that I built.

And also with the 368 turbos or stock buddies ?

Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 6 01:32:06 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "Carlos Q" <pir8ska@shadow.net>,
"Team3s list" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 3" CAT v.s. straight pipe
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 10:27:23 +0200
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Carlos, please switch the HTML off if sending posts to the list, thanks !

> is there going to be a difference at all between a 3-inch, high-flow cat
> and a 3-inch section of pipe? Just curious as i have the atr eliminator
> downpipe, but i would also like for my children to be able to breathe =)

I do have both and the butt told me no difference but some less noise with
the ATR cat. But this could be due to the pre-cats still in place as they
are the main restriction. Gut them and install a high flow cat and you'll on
the clean side.

Please note : ATR once sold me a high flow cat that broke in pieces after a
few months. I then saw that the material was ceramic. This is not bad but
much more sensible and known to crack pretty quick. I got a replacement now
that is made of good old metal and works well so far. Inspect it when you
get it.

Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 6 03:48:33 1999
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Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 06:48:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: ie886@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John T. Christian)
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Stutter
Cc: ie886@po.cwru.edu, bsc4@po.cwru.edu
Reply-To: ie886@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John T. Christian)
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Hi all,

Stutter is gone. I replaced the plugs with stock NKG gapped to .031.
My TT is running strong again.

I'm off to run Nelsons Ledges this morning which will be my first road
course event for this year. Been having "high speed withdrawl"...

The old plugs had only 20k on them. Don't remember the original gag, but
it would have been less than stock[.043] and more than .030. They measured
.038-.033. The color was odd...looked like a redish brown. The first set
at 60k were black indicating a rich misture. I don't know what a redish
brown means...perhaps STUTTER. LOL

While I had the plugs out and intake plennum off, I checked the
compression. All cylinders were 155-160psi. The first pump was 90-95.

Thanks to all who had suggested fixes for the Stutter.

--
JCZoooM '93 Stealth TT Blue almost stock 12.46 @109 MPH
e-mail: ie886@po.cwru.edu www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 6 04:37:22 1999
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Message-ID: <01c801bedfff$edb1ce60$6ce586cd@sch>
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: <mdorsey@mindspring.com>, "TEAM 3S List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Off Topic: Trailer Hitch Q...
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 04:17:26 -0700
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I don't know about the U-Haul hitch, but the one Dennis recommended is
200 Lbs (and just under $170).

Forrest

-----Original Message-----From: Michael <mdorsey@mindspring.com>

>Any idea how much weight it adds to the car?
>
>Michael
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ian Marks [SMTP:ianmarks@earthlink.net]
>Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 2:44 PM
>To: Merritt; Bob Forrest; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>Subject: Re: Team3S: Off Topic: Trailer Hitch Q...
>
>Rich,
> I had a receiver hitch installed by U-haul last summer and
it's
>worked out just fine. The guy even did a nice job with the wiring
harness
>(surprise from U-haul!). I originally got the hitch for a bike/ski
rack but
>it also accepts a ball hitch attachment for trailers etc. . . It cost
about
>eighty bucks installed. I don't think it's that noticeable really,
all that
>shows is a small black metal bar and the square hole of the hitch
itself. I
>use a Rhode Gear bike rack with a ski attachment and it's absolutly
>excellent. Nothing touches the car and the skiis are behind so
there's no
>added wind noise inside the car. I have also hauled a small trailer
with it
>(U-haul's smallest) with no problems. In fact even with the trailer
my
>Stealth was still quite comfortable doing 85mph in 5th gear!
-----------snipped-----------


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 6 04:37:24 1999
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Message-ID: <01c701bedfff$ece72b60$6ce586cd@sch>
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: "Chris Chiasson" <cender@email.msn.com>,
"David Chen" <neubine@ix.netcom.com>, "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>,
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Rim question
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 04:09:15 -0700
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I don't know if another site was mentioned, since this post was 2
weeks ago, but there's a pretty good array of wheels at
www.tirerack.com . For 18x9, you shouldn't need any offset...

Forrest

-----Original Message-----From: Chris Chiasson <cender@email.msn.com>

>where is the web page that shows the wheels?
>did someone post the offset for the 18x9.0 wheels yet? what was it?
>----- Original Message -----
>From: David Chen <neubine@ix.netcom.com>
>To: R.G. <robby@freesurf.ch>; Team3S <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 3:17 AM
>Subject: Re: Team3S: Rim question
------------snipped------------


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 6 04:37:24 1999
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: "Bruce Body" <bbody@pacbell.net>
Cc: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Off Topic: Trailer Hitch Q...
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-----Original Message-----From: Bruce Body <bbody@pacbell.net>
>Turbo guys beware! The owners manuals for both turbo cars I've owned
>specifically state DO NOT tow anything with the car. Remember, the
>turbos boost under load. You don't want to be pushing 12+ psi @ 2000
>rpms.


Absolutely right! The manuals recommend against it for the non-turbos
as well. I've only got to tow an inflatable boat (just over 100#)
plus the trailer weight, which is about the same as adding a passenger
and won't be a problem. It's probably no problem to tow a set of
tires, either. But both the manuals and service techs have been quite
specific NOT to tow anything of substantial weight. That's not what
our cars are designed for!

Forrest


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 6 06:25:57 1999
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Reply-To: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Stutter
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:25:39 +0200
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>Stutter is gone. I replaced the plugs with stock NKG gapped to .031.
>My TT is running strong again.

Hmm, 0.031 is really at the smaller side. Have you already experienced a
decrease in mileage ? What boost do you run ?

>The old plugs had only 20k on them. Don't remember the original gag, but
>it would have been less than stock[.043] and more than .030. They measured
>.038-.033. The color was odd...looked like a redish brown.

A good source for how does the plug look like can be found under :

http://www.centuryperformance.com/spark2.htm#Reading

I think your plugs where really worn out due to the heavy misfires (stutter
!) you had.

> The first set at 60k were black indicating a rich misture.

Yep, this is normal. (or should be normal)

>While I had the plugs out and intake plennum off, I checked the
>compression. All cylinders were 155-160psi. The first pump was 90-95.

Very good compression :)


Your et and speed tells me that you are running high boost. This is probably
the case for the condition of your plugs. But I'm happy the test was fine !
But keep this in mind as the stutter my come back after 15k as well if you
don't change something on your setup.

Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 6 07:19:59 1999
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John T. Christian wrote:

> snip
>
>
>
> The old plugs had only 20k on them. Don't remember the original gag, but
> it would have been less than stock[.043] and more than .030. They measured
> .038-.033. The color was odd...looked like a redish brown. The first set
> at 60k were black indicating a rich misture. I don't know what a redish
> brown means...perhaps STUTTER. LOL

This could be as Roger has suggested, or another likely cause is if you have been
running octane boost recently, which is notorious for coloring the plugs this way. Also
as suggested, .031 is on the low end of the gapping spectrum, and many runinng boost
controllers or manual valves are in the .034 area.

Best

Darc

>
>
> While I had the plugs out and intake plennum off, I checked the
> compression. All cylinders were 155-160psi. The first pump was 90-95.
>
> Thanks to all who had suggested fixes for the Stutter.
>
> --
> JCZoooM '93 Stealth TT Blue almost stock 12.46 @109 MPH
> e-mail: ie886@po.cwru.edu www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 6 08:03:51 1999
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Subject: RE: Team3S: 3" CAT v.s. straight pipe
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Carlos...

I don't know that anyone has measured the difference but, from a theoretical
perspective, any restriction in the system is a restriction (even bends in
the pipe) that slows the flow of the exhaust. I wish it was "safe" to take
my car through DEQ both ways. I know that when the system was stock, the
emissions were 10X lower than the allowable amount. I doubt that removing
the pre-cats and main cat makes a ?huge? difference, but one could argue
that ANY emission that could be prevented is a "bad" emission.

Looking forward...Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Carlos Q [mailto:pir8ska@shadow.net]
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 5:47 PM
To: Team3s list
Subject: Team3S: 3" CAT v.s. straight pipe


is there going to be a difference at all between a 3-inch, high-flow cat and
a 3-inch section of pipe? Just curious as i have the atr eliminator
downpipe, but i would also like for my children to be able to breathe =)

thanks,
Carlos
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 6 08:06:28 1999
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Reply-To: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Stutter
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 16:51:54 +0200
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>This could be as Roger has suggested, or another likely cause is if you
have been
>running octane boost recently, which is notorious for coloring the plugs
this way. Also
>as suggested, .031 is on the low end of the gapping spectrum, and many
runinng boost
>controllers or manual valves are in the .034 area.


Forgot to add : I was told not to gap a plug wider or smaller than 0.008"
away from its original gap. This is due to the fact that the anode and
cathode will not be parallel anymore.

Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT



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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 6 08:19:45 1999
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From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'ie886@cleveland.Freenet.Edu'" <ie886@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
Cc: ie886@po.cwru.edu, bsc4@po.cwru.edu, stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Stutter
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 08:18:48 -0700
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'yo Zoom...

The orangeish, reddish, brown deposit is "normally" associated with the use
of octane boosters. Not sure why it occurs, but I starting find that deposit
after dumping liberal amounts of booster to up the octane from pump levels
(92 here in Portland). I've since resorted to using a mix of 110 octane race
fuel, but haven't pulled the plugs recently to see what they look like now.

BTW...12.46 is very impressive for "almost stock"...no fuel system or turbo
mods?

Looking forward...Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: ie886@cleveland.Freenet.Edu [mailto:ie886@cleveland.Freenet.Edu]
Sent: Friday, August 06, 1999 3:48 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Cc: ie886@po.cwru.edu; bsc4@po.cwru.edu
Subject: Re: Team3S: Stutter

<snip>

The old plugs had only 20k on them. Don't remember the original gag, but
it would have been less than stock[.043] and more than .030. They measured
.038-.033. The color was odd...looked like a redish brown. The first set
at 60k were black indicating a rich misture. I don't know what a redish
brown means...perhaps STUTTER. LOL
<snip>
--
JCZoooM '93 Stealth TT Blue almost stock 12.46 @109 MPH
e-mail: ie886@po.cwru.edu www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 6 08:23:39 1999
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com, wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 08:22:58 -0700
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There are alot of opinions on dealing with plug gap. I've seen everything from .31 to .39, when dealing with boost controllers and running above stock conditions. I'm not an expert in this area, so it makes it quite confusing to know WHO IS RIGHT. Is the gap dependent on the modification stage - say your at Stage 3, so your gap needs to be at .31 - .34 or Stage 1 requires a .37 - .39?

Oh by the way, a pricing war on the "NEW" Apexi AVC-R seems to be in motion. Per a post on the 3si board, Indura (think that's how you spell it) at Apexi Motorsports in Glendale, AZ is offering it at $399. If interested, give him a call at (602) 246-7505 / 7497. He and Kwan (manager/owner) of the Tempe Store have told me that they will try and beat any pricing you find on performance parts - just give 'em a call and see what they can do. Kwan's # - (602) 967-6515 / 9507.
--

On Fri, 06 Aug 1999 07:18:01 wce wrote:
>
>
>John T. Christian wrote:
>
>> snip
>>
>>
>>
>> The old plugs had only 20k on them. Don't remember the original gag, but
>> it would have been less than stock[.043] and more than .030. They measured
>> .038-.033. The color was odd...looked like a redish brown. The first set
>> at 60k were black indicating a rich misture. I don't know what a redish
>> brown means...perhaps STUTTER. LOL
>
>This could be as Roger has suggested, or another likely cause is if you have been
>running octane boost recently, which is notorious for coloring the plugs this way. Also
>as suggested, .031 is on the low end of the gapping spectrum, and many runinng boost
>controllers or manual valves are in the .034 area.
>
>Best
>
>Darc
>
>>
>>
>> While I had the plugs out and intake plennum off, I checked the
>> compression. All cylinders were 155-160psi. The first pump was 90-95.
>>
>> Thanks to all who had suggested fixes for the Stutter.
>>
>> --
>> JCZoooM '93 Stealth TT Blue almost stock 12.46 @109 MPH
>> e-mail: ie886@po.cwru.edu www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538
>> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 6 08:30:09 1999
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To: "Chris Chiasson" <cender@email.msn.com>,
"David Chen" <neubine@ix.netcom.com>, "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>,
"Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>,
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Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 08:29:37 -0700
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Was disappointed at the selection of rims at TireRack. Discount Tire - www.discounttire.com - had a larger selection based on the VR-4 17". Wasn't looking at 18's. Like the TirRack, they have a shockwave based viewer, so you can see sort of how the rim will look on your car. All the rims I've found I like only come in 15 or 16" sizes.
--

On Fri, 6 Aug 1999 04:09:15 Bob Forrest wrote:
>I don't know if another site was mentioned, since this post was 2
>weeks ago, but there's a pretty good array of wheels at
>www.tirerack.com . For 18x9, you shouldn't need any offset...
>
>Forrest
>
>-----Original Message-----From: Chris Chiasson <cender@email.msn.com>
>
>>where is the web page that shows the wheels?
>>did someone post the offset for the 18x9.0 wheels yet? what was it?
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: David Chen <neubine@ix.netcom.com>
>>To: R.G. <robby@freesurf.ch>; Team3S <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>>Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 3:17 AM
>>Subject: Re: Team3S: Rim question
>------------snipped------------
>
>
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>


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 6 08:33:58 1999
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From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Off Topic: Trailer Hitch Q...
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 08:32:13 -0700
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I'm sure the hitch doesn't weigh 200# ---- the tongue weight is 200#. That means
that the downward weight of the trailer where it rests on the ball is rated at 200#
maximum.

Jim Berry
======================================================


> I don't know about the U-Haul hitch, but the one Dennis recommended is
> 200 Lbs (and just under $170).
>
> Forrest
> =====================================================
> >Any idea how much weight it adds to the car?
> >
> >Michael
>

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 6 08:40:22 1999
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Most hitches probably weigh in the range of 15-20 lbs at the most. The ones that have the removable tongue/ball, after you pull that - saves a couple of pounds.
I've wondered if they had one for our cars for awhile, as I'd like to be able to hook up a removal bike rack or pull a jet ski on a trailer.
--

On Fri, 6 Aug 1999 02:54:08 Michael wrote:
>Any idea how much weight it adds to the car?
>
>Michael
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ian Marks [SMTP:ianmarks@earthlink.net]
>Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 2:44 PM
>To: Merritt; Bob Forrest; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>Subject: Re: Team3S: Off Topic: Trailer Hitch Q...
>
>Rich,
> I had a receiver hitch installed by U-haul last summer and it's
>worked out just fine. The guy even did a nice job with the wiring harness
>(surprise from U-haul!). I originally got the hitch for a bike/ski rack but
>it also accepts a ball hitch attachment for trailers etc. . . It cost about
>eighty bucks installed. I don't think it's that noticeable really, all that
>shows is a small black metal bar and the square hole of the hitch itself. I
>use a Rhode Gear bike rack with a ski attachment and it's absolutly
>excellent. Nothing touches the car and the skiis are behind so there's no
>added wind noise inside the car. I have also hauled a small trailer with it
>(U-haul's smallest) with no problems. In fact even with the trailer my
>Stealth was still quite comfortable doing 85mph in 5th gear!
> You can call a local U-haul and they will have to order the hitch (it's
>technically called a 1 1/4" receiver hitch). I can't remember if the ball
>attachment was included or not. Other vendors will be able to do this as
>well if you have some reservations about your local U-haul messing with your
>baby.
> Good luck.
>
>-----
>Ian Marks
>'94 Stealth RT/TT
>Rochester, NY
>
>----------
>>From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
>>To: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>>Subject: Re: Team3S: Off Topic: Trailer Hitch Q...
>>Date: Thu, Aug 5, 1999, 11:15 AM
>>
>
>> At 08:53 AM 8/5/99 -0700, Bob Forrest wrote:
>>>Has anyone ever installed a trailer hitch on one of our cars? I
>>>need to get one (and a lightweight trailer), but I'd like it to
>>>be removable, since it's gotta be serious ugly to have one on...
>> , but please do it privately, since it's off-topic. Post to the list only
>> if you
>>>have a real solution, please... :-)
>>>
>> No, please post it to the list or include me in the private postings. For
>> racers, it's very topical.
>>
>> I have been seriously considering a trailer myself to haul race tires and
>> stuff around.
>> I know, I know, 4 race wheels and tires will fit in there somehow, but they
>> don't leave much room for anything else, and I have to haul all this stuff
>> 300 miles between events. I really don't want a race tire in the passenger
>> seat for 300 miles.
>>
>> I've seen racers with small trailers for such purposes, and have been
>> wondering if it's possible to affix a trailer hitch on our cars.
>>
>> Or maybe a cartop carrier?
>>
>> Please post solutions to the list.
>>
>> Rich/old poop/94 VR4
>>
>>
>> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 6 08:54:26 1999
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From: "Murat Okcuoglu" <murat@ashacorp.com>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Stutter
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 08:49:43 -0700
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> But keep this in mind as the stutter my come back after 15k as well if you
> don't change something on your setup.
>
> Regards,
> Roger
> 93'3000GT TT


Roger, are you suggesting that the stutter will come back by itself? What
needs to be done to prevent this from happening?

Thanks!
Murat
Stealth T/T

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 6 10:06:24 1999
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From: "MITCHELL, Ron @Toronto" <rmitchell@shl.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Trailer hitch mount solution
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 11:06:10 -0600
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I've seen several questions and comments about adding a trailer hitch =
to the
cars. I had one installed on my '94 R/T TT last year. I had this =
mounted to
accommodate my hitch-mount mountain bike rack and had it done here in
Toronto at a "Hitch City" franchise location. I'd have to dig under =
the car
to tell you the brand name if anyone needs it. =20

However, I can tell you it's VERY discreet. The portion that is =
affixed to
the frame has a 1 =BC inch square hitch mount that does not protrude =
from
underneath the lower rear skirt. I don't have pictures I can send, but
attached is a (very!) rough drawing of what it looks like. If you have
trouble opening this attachment, simply insert it into a Word document. =
Hope
this helps.

<<Stealth Hitch Mount.wmf>>=20


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 6 19:06:40 1999
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Reply-To: "Meyer" <meyer2@erols.com>
From: "Meyer" <meyer2@erols.com>
To: "team3s" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Carbon Fiber Hood and Fiberglass Bumper For Sale
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 22:05:42 -0400
Message-ID: <01bee079$5a3f11e0$d18faccf@default>
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All
=20
I have one BRAND NEW (never on car) Show Quality Raw Carbon fiber hood =
w/ clearcoat and one Brand new Erebuni Fiberglass Shogun Style Front =
Bumper for sale. They are both in perfect condition. The Hood and =
Bumper are for the 1st gen 3000GT's and Stealth's. The hood is only =
about 10 pounds and looks incredable, and the bumper is lightwieght and =
looks killer too. I am asking $900 for the Hood and $400 for the =
bumper. I will sell the pair for $1175. Visa and Mastercard accepted.=20
=20
=20
Matt
301-393-8800
www.AcceleratedAccessories.com=20

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<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>All</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I have one BRAND NEW (never on =
car)&nbsp; Show=20
Quality Raw Carbon fiber hood w/ clearcoat and one Brand new Erebuni =
Fiberglass=20
Shogun Style Front Bumper for sale.&nbsp; They are both in perfect=20
condition.&nbsp; The Hood and Bumper are for the 1st gen 3000GT's and =
Stealth's.=20
The hood is only about 10 pounds and looks incredable, and the bumper is =

lightwieght and looks killer too.&nbsp; I am asking $900 for the Hood =
and $400=20
for the bumper.&nbsp; I will sell the pair for $1175.&nbsp; Visa and =
Mastercard=20
accepted.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>301-393-8800</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.AcceleratedAccessories.com">www.AcceleratedAccessories=
.com</A>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 6 19:18:20 1999
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From: "Kevin Fanciulli" <nebula9@home.com>
To: "Murat Okcuoglu" <murat@ashacorp.com>,
"'TEAM3S'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Clutch Replacement: Which one is best?
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 20:18:24 -0600
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My clutch, too, is saying goodbye... I know dying clutches are a common
thing in our cars (mine only has 67k miles), so I want to know which clutch
has proven best/strongest/longest lasting in our cars... Centerforce dual
friction? What other brands are there; what do they run $$-wise?

Thanks,
-kevin fanciulli
'92 Stealth RT/TT w/ 67k slipping clutch

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Murat Okcuoglu
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 12:09 PM
To: 'TEAM3S'
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rough Clutch Uptake in 1st. Diagnosis?



> I've discovered after a weekend of aggressive driving of my TT (no racing,
> just aggressive), it seems that my clutch seems to shudder when engaging
> first gear unless I give it a lot of RPM's.
>

Your clutch is saying goodbye.

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 6 21:32:14 1999
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From: "Edwin Shaw" <seawulf@sgi.net>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: K&N FIPK Question
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 00:28:42 -0400
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I have a 98 3000GT SL, and i recently purcahsed a FIPK, i installed it =
fine, but when i started the car it died right away, i did everything to =
the manual including the battery disconnection, then when i removed the =
MAS plug it ran fine, but i think with thtat out i have a really bad =
fuel/air ratio, plus really bad mieage, also i may have punctured the =
honeycomp in the MAS, just slightly though, does this cause for me to =
purchase a new MAS, and if so can i get a high performance one that will =
perform more efficiently and better than my existing OEM MAS?

Thank you in advance
Edwin

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I have a 98 3000GT SL, and i recently purcahsed a =
FIPK, i=20
installed it fine, but when i started the car it died right away, i did=20
everything to the manual including the battery disconnection, then when =
i=20
removed the MAS plug it ran fine, but i think with thtat out i have a =
really bad=20
fuel/air ratio, plus really bad mieage, also i may have punctured the =
honeycomp=20
in the MAS, just slightly though, does this cause for me to purchase a =
new MAS,=20
and if so can i get a high performance one that will perform more =
efficiently=20
and better than my existing OEM MAS?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thank you in advance</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Edwin</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 6 22:25:35 1999
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Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 22:20:56 -0700
From: Rich <rleroy@pacifier.com>
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To: Edwin Shaw <seawulf@sgi.net>
CC: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: K&N FIPK Question
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Edwin:

Don't run the car without the MAS plugged in. It *may* idle rough
until the computer "learns" that you have the FIPK, but it will settle
out.

If you damaged the honeycombs during the install, (and most folks do),
just gently re-bend/straighten them out using a small pair of
needle-nose pliers. No need to replace them. Some people, myself
included, run without the honeycombs without a problem.

Rich
------------------------------------------------------------
> Edwin Shaw wrote:
>
> I have a 98 3000GT SL, and i recently purcahsed a FIPK, i installed it
> fine, but when i started the car it died right away, i did everything
> to the manual including the battery disconnection, then when i removed
> the MAS plug it ran fine, but i think with thtat out i have a really
> bad fuel/air ratio, plus really bad mieage, also i may have punctured
> the honeycomp in the MAS, just slightly though, does this cause for me
> to purchase a new MAS, and if so can i get a high performance one that
> will perform more efficiently and better than my existing OEM MAS?
>
> Thank you in advance
> Edwin
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 7 09:43:39 1999
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From: "Gabriel Estrada" <typhoonzz@earthlink.net>
To: <rleroy@pacifier.com>, "Edwin Shaw" <seawulf@sgi.net>
Cc: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <025b01bee08d$58d335c0$03000004@oemcomputer> <37ABC238.69E7FE2D@pacifier.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: K&N FIPK Question
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 11:42:52 -0500
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Can you tell me, does the FIPK kit fit in the stock box, or is this a cone
filter? If it isn't a cone, do they make a kit with the cone?
Thanks
Gabe Estrada
94 Pearl Yellow VR-4
92 Gmc Typhoon
----- Original Message -----
From: Rich <rleroy@pacifier.com>
To: Edwin Shaw <seawulf@sgi.net>
Cc: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 1999 12:20 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: K&N FIPK Question


> Edwin:
>
> Don't run the car without the MAS plugged in. It *may* idle rough
> until the computer "learns" that you have the FIPK, but it will settle
> out.
>
> If you damaged the honeycombs during the install, (and most folks do),
> just gently re-bend/straighten them out using a small pair of
> needle-nose pliers. No need to replace them. Some people, myself
> included, run without the honeycombs without a problem.
>
> Rich
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > Edwin Shaw wrote:
> >
> > I have a 98 3000GT SL, and i recently purcahsed a FIPK, i installed it
> > fine, but when i started the car it died right away, i did everything
> > to the manual including the battery disconnection, then when i removed
> > the MAS plug it ran fine, but i think with thtat out i have a really
> > bad fuel/air ratio, plus really bad mieage, also i may have punctured
> > the honeycomp in the MAS, just slightly though, does this cause for me
> > to purchase a new MAS, and if so can i get a high performance one that
> > will perform more efficiently and better than my existing OEM MAS?
> >
> > Thank you in advance
> > Edwin
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 7 11:07:26 1999
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Subject: Team3S: Re: Compressor Efficiency Theory - Physics
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In a message dated 99-08-05 00:37:25 EDT, you write:

<< What I don't understand is where the 300+ degree turbo outlet temp
came from. It is well in excess of compression heating --- 1 BAR should
double the temp from approximately 100 degrees to 200 degrees. The temp
referred to is three times the input air temp. At a minimum the turbo
outlet temp should be dependent on the condition of the turbo --- if it's
cold the temp should be lower etc. the heat has to come from somewhere,
I don't buy into this beating the air concept. >>

Many years ago I took some turbomachinery classes as part of my propulsion
studies in aerospace engineering. If I remember correctly, the act of
compressing air also introduced alot of turbulence, particularly on a radial
flow compressor that we have on our turbos. The turbulence comes from
separation of the airflow from the outer portion of the vanes on the
compressor wheel. (axial flow compressors seen on modern jet aircraft are
usually more efficient but often cannot give the same pressure rise that a
single radial flow compressor wheel can)

To visualise the airflow separation on a radial flow compressor, imagine that
you are traveling along with a small chunk of air as it just enters the inlet
of the compressor. The chunk of air is traveling in a direction parallel to
the axis of the spinning compressor wheel. The first thing the chunk of air
hits is the leading edge of all the compressor vanes - the chunk is split
into smaller wedge-shaped chunks.

Looking at one of these wedge-shaped chunks as it follows a path between the
compressor vanes, we see it take a 90 degree turn and travel radially outward
towards the outer perimeter of the compressor wheel. As it does so, the
distance between the vanes increases. Down towards the root of the vanes, the
chunk of air is able to change shape to follow the initial opening of the
passage between the vanes. As it nears the outer edge of the wheel, however,
it cannot handle the ever increasing distance between the vanes - the
previously smooth airflow detaches or separates from one side of the passage
between the vanes and you get turbulence. (since the airflow is actually
traveling in a spiraling path due to the spin of the compressor wheel, it
tends to unstick from the vane that is rotationally preceeding the chunk of
air. The air remains attached to the vane that is rotationally behind it)

Turbulence is bad. The turbulence caused by separation is very bad.
Turbulence reduces the usefulness of the airflow in that the pressure is
lower that what it might have been. Instead of having smooth flowing air, you
have spinning, tumbling, and mixing action with turbulence.

Turbulence also causes heating. To illustrate this lets do an experiment:
Imagine that you have a jar or peanut butter. The peanut butter is not chunky
but is smooth since we always use a good filter (sorry, couldn't resist that
one). Grab the handle of a wooden spoon and start vigorously stirring the
peanut butter. The shearing action of stirring the peanut butter is like
turbulence - you are not increasing the pressure of the peanut butter but you
are adding energy to it. You know this since your arm gets tired.

After you stir the peanut butter for awhile it will increase in temperature.
Can you measure this with a thermometer? I'm not sure. Maybe but probably
not. If you had a sensitive enough thermometer, and you added enough energy
to the peanut butter very quickly you would see a temperature rise. The same
thing happens with air. The shearing action of turbulence causes a
temperature rise.

Is this where all of the "additional" temp rise comes from? (By "additional"
temp rise I mean the temp rise beyond what we would expect from simply
compressing the air) I'm not sure. I assume that the compressor efficiency
maps of the current discussion are for a cold compressor wheel in a test cell
- i.e. not one connected to a turbine that is drawing heat off of the exhaust
manifold of an engine. If we are talking about a cold (same temp as the air)
compressor wheel, then the "additional" temp rise is from turbulence.

In the classes I took, I think the notion of compressor efficiency refered to
the amount of useful air pressure rise for a given amount of mechanical power
required to drive the compressor. This agrees nicely with the notion of a
topographical pressure map and efficiency/temperature relationship introduced
by Jack. We know that a given amount of mechanical energy used to drive the
compressor wheel eventually ends up in one of two forms: useful air pressure
rise or unwanted air temperature rise. The more efficient compressor gives
you more pressure rise and less temp rise.


...at least as far as I can recall from the classes I took nearly ten years
ago!

Paul Klusman
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 7 11:08:24 1999
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Message-ID: <003e01bee0ff$b60907c0$57e586cd@sch>
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: "Gabriel Estrada" <typhoonzz@earthlink.net>, <rleroy@pacifier.com>
Cc: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: K&N FIPK Question
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 11:07:09 -0700
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K&N makes a square filter replacement that fits in the stock box, but
it's only slightly better than the stock filter. The K&N FIPK, on the
other hand, is an entire large oval cone-style unit that replaces the
stock airbox from the MAS back. (Removing the last piece of the
airbox is a messy (but simple) affair, BTW, because there are metal
plates at the end of the bolts that hold it on to the MAS unit,
[inside the airbox] that are not held tightly in their plastic
settings. When you try to remove the outside nuts, the bolt end
'plates' rotate inside the inadequate plastic 'keepers', and pretty
much mess up the stock airbox permanently. Many of us have tried to
squeeze vise grips, etc, in there to hold the plates from turning, but
we've ended up cutting the bolts out completely.) Once you feel the
performance gains with the FIPK, you'll never want to go back to the
stock box anyway...

K&N makes many other smaller cones (and, I think, one larger one), but
these are not "approved" like the FIPK is (it comes with a legal
numbered DOT sticker); the others are only rated for off-road use.

The FIPK is highly recommended.

Forrest

-----Original Message-----From: Gabriel Estrada
<typhoonzz@earthlink.net>

>Can you tell me, does the FIPK kit fit in the stock box, or is this a
cone
>filter? If it isn't a cone, do they make a kit with the cone?
>Thanks
>Gabe Estrada
>94 Pearl Yellow VR-4
>92 Gmc Typhoon
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Rich <rleroy@pacifier.com>>To: Edwin Shaw <seawulf@sgi.net>
>> Edwin:
>>
>> Don't run the car without the MAS plugged in. It *may* idle rough
>> until the computer "learns" that you have the FIPK, but it will
settle
>> out.
>>
>> If you damaged the honeycombs during the install, (and most folks
do),
>> just gently re-bend/straighten them out using a small pair of
>> needle-nose pliers. No need to replace them. Some people, myself
>> included, run without the honeycombs without a problem.
-----------snipped------------


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 7 21:57:03 1999
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Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 00:50:28 -0400
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All,

In the endeavor to lower the discharge tempreature as much as possible,
has anyone tried any of the water cooled systems. Vortech, for one,
sells such a unit, The Mondo Cooler, which will handle 2500 cfm. I
haven't read any heat load capabilities. Check it out at
http://vortecheng.com/aftcool.html

Regards,
Lynn
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 8 02:38:13 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: HP 9B vs 13G
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 11:31:07 +0200
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----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
>However, we KNOW for a fact that at least one VR4 in Europe came stock with 13Gs (Roger Gerl's).

All 3000GTs in Europe (atleast Denmark, Germany, Switzerland and Sweden don't know about UK) have the 13G Turbos. I'm not sure about 91-92 but all 93+ 3K have the 13G's.

/Mikael http://www.3000gt.nu


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 8 04:29:04 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: K&N FIPK Question
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:26:13 +0200
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FIPK = Filercharger Injection Performance Kit

As it says it's a kit that comes with a filter (Filtercharger in K&N terms)
and the special adapter for each car. It's a cone filter in our case.

You can also buy just the Filtercharger for your car and this is a drop in
square filter element and fits the stock filter box.

Both work good although the drop in Filtercharger ($43) still uses the stock
box while the FIPK is a replacement of the box ($155). You can get the FIPK
for the 2nd generation Eclipse as it is the same adapter, a bigger filter
but only $98 or so.

Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT

>Can you tell me, does the FIPK kit fit in the stock box, or is this a cone
>filter? If it isn't a cone, do they make a kit with the cone?


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 8 05:40:16 1999
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Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 08:40:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: ie886@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John T. Christian)
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Stutter
Cc: ie886@po.cwru.edu, bsc4@po.cwru.edu, aj@po.cwru.edu
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Hi all,

Hi all,

jc>>Stutter is gone. I replaced the plugs with stock NKG gapped to .031.
jc>>My TT is running strong again.

rg>Hmm, 0.031 is really at the smaller side. Have you already experienced a
rg>decrease in mileage ? What boost do you run ?
Roger, As a habit, I automatically write down mileage on fillups, but rarely
calculate MPG. But at roadcourses, I ususally consume 1 gallon per 7 miles.
At Nelsons last Friday I averaged 6.5 miles per gallon. Could be the .031
gap, but most likely the 13g's vs stock. Normal MPG on a 700 mile trip
is 24 (suitcases, golf clubs, one lovely wife etc) and NO "foot in the
throttle".
I have a manual pressure regulator so precise boost is not possible. I
have set it about 13psi. However I must modulate the throttle to prevent
overboost. ie in the carrosel, I carry speed 70-80 and exit 75-85 under
partial throttle [boost is 4-12]. BUT sometimes if I get spunky, and forget
about throttle modulation, boost will hit 23+ and I get a fuel cut reminder.
Comming out of the keyhole in 2nd gear at WOT I'll hit 14psi and speed shift
into 3rd on the front straight will take the boost to 19psi with no miss
or fuel cut.

terry> confusing .... Is the gap dependent on the modification stage -
terry> say your at Stage 3, so your gap needs to be at .31 - .34 or
terry> Stage 1 requires a .37 - .39?
Nothing definitive, but I had misfire with some plugs at .039 after
20,000 miles with stock turbos. Current .031 no misfire only fuel cut
at 23+psi with 13g's. Probably .034 would be within the parallel
anode/cathode range as Roger suggests (.043-.008=.035) and not miss under
high boost conditions.

jc>>The old plugs had only 20k on them. Don't remember the original gap, but
jc>> it would have been less than stock[.043] and more than .030. They
jc>> measured .038-.033. The color was odd...looked like a redish brown.

rg>A good source for how does the plug look like can be found under :
rg>http://www.centuryperformance.com/spark2.htm#Reading
Thanks for the site

darc> or another likely cause is if you have been running octane boost
darc> recently, which is notorious for coloring the plugs this way.
chris> orangeish, reddish, brown deposit is "normally" associated
chris> with the use of octane boosters.

AAAAAhhhhh.... Use octane boost only at road courses.
Do I hurt anything by using a booster???

chris>BTW...12.46 is very impressive for "almost stock"...no fuel system
chris> or turbo mods?
That was at Norwalk at the '97 DSM Shootout after I lost 1st place to
Xwing. Only mods at that time were a manual boost controller, track
exhaust, and K&N. Racing fuel AND the cooold weather really helped.

Be of good cheer

--
JCZoooM '93 Stealth TT Blue almost stock 12.46 @109 MPH
e-mail: ie886@po.cwru.edu www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 8 06:35:29 1999
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Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 09:36:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Team3S: K&N FIPK Question
From: "Ian Marks" <ianmarks@earthlink.net>
To: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>, stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
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The new filter kit then draws air directly from the engine compartment
right? Doesn't this decrease performance on hot days or is it still an
improvement over the stock filter?

> box while the FIPK is a replacement of the box ($155). You can get the FIPK
> for the 2nd generation Eclipse as it is the same adapter, a bigger filter
> but only $98 or so.

So the 2nd generation Eclipse filter pack will fit the Stealth/3000?
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 8 07:41:54 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: K&N FIPK Question
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 16:01:10 +0200
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>The new filter kit then draws air directly from the engine compartment
>right? Doesn't this decrease performance on hot days or is it still an
>improvement over the stock filter?

Unfortunately, this is also the case with the stock airbox although it only
draws the air from the front part. But the airbox is a small restriction
itselfs. The intake temperature is always around 10-15°C over the ambient
temperature.

>So the 2nd generation Eclipse filter pack will fit the Stealth/3000?

Yes, I've read this several times (the FIPK of course). The only difference
is maybe that the adapter to the MAS does not come with the two additional
mounting brackets that bolts the MAS/Filter to the fender well.

Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT


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>I have a manual pressure regulator so precise boost is not possible. I
>have set it about 13psi. However I must modulate the throttle to prevent
>overboost. ie in the carrosel, I carry speed 70-80 and exit 75-85 under
>partial throttle [boost is 4-12]. BUT sometimes if I get spunky, and forget
>about throttle modulation, boost will hit 23+ and I get a fuel cut
reminder.
>Comming out of the keyhole in 2nd gear at WOT I'll hit 14psi and speed
shift
>into 3rd on the front straight will take the boost to 19psi with no miss
>or fuel cut.

This again proves that a manual boost controller is a damn dangerous thing !
Fuel cut is not a reminder BUT it's the LAST THING the ECU can do to prevent
larger damage to the engine !!! It's also possible that the stock boost
solenoid is still in it's place and this may cause the large overboost.

23+ psi, how did you measure this ???? We found a max of about 20psi and
maybe some peak of 21 psi but never 23 with the stock turbos and
intercoolers. Fuel cut appears at 18 psi around 5500 (with 93 pump gas and
medium temps)

>AAAAAhhhhh.... Use octane boost only at road courses.
>Do I hurt anything by using a booster???

Hmmm, I do not have any experience with octane booster but I'm pretty sure
that you have had very, very high temps in the chamber. Detonation,
preignition and lean mixtures are responsible to this as well and with the
boost levels and fuel cuts you are describing you must feel very lucky for
having still a good engine.

>chris>BTW...12.46 is very impressive for "almost stock"...no fuel system
>chris> or turbo mods?

>That was at Norwalk at the '97 DSM Shootout after I lost 1st place to
>Xwing. Only mods at that time were a manual boost controller, track
>exhaust, and K&N. Racing fuel AND the cooold weather really helped.

Ok, cool temps, dense air and of course the racing fuel helped not causing
any damage. Therefore you ran about 18-20psi then and the resulted time is
very possible, no question. During my engine-killing tests with the newly
installed DSBC last year, I've read 12.50 on the G-Tech pro with boost
around 18 psi. Everything higher and higher ambient temp caused detonation
and fuel cut

To be honest, I'd not feel good with such a boost behaviour and especially
not without the options to find any problems. In this high boost regions an
EGT is 100% necessary otherwise you're running the car into hell. As you
have a 93 you should also consider getting a datalogger and I'm pretty sure
that you'll find a lot knock then even with racing fuel :(

BTW, what do you mean by "track exhaust" ??

Good luck and hopefully you'll not make the same bad experience as I and
others did last year by ignoring the engines signals (plugs, hesitation,
fuel-cut)

Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 8 07:41:56 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "SI, Three" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water cooled intercooling
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 16:10:40 +0200
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>In the endeavor to lower the discharge tempreature as much as possible,
>has anyone tried any of the water cooled systems.

Those systems are called Air-to-water intercooler compared to our air-to-air
intercooler. The air temperature will be given to the water that sourrounds
the pipe. An additional water cooler cools then the water. Both systems are
good and the water intercoolers are mostly used on applications with small
room available.

For additional intercooling it's a good solution but too much hassle for the
gain (if any). It then may be a better solution to upgrade to larger turbos
that have lower discharge temps at the same boost.

>Vortech, for one, sells such a unit, The Mondo Cooler, which will handle
>2500 cfm. Ihaven't read any heat load capabilities. Check it out at
>http://vortecheng.com/aftcool.html

About two or three of my Camaro buddies have installed it for cooling the
compressor outlet and have been able to reduce the timing retard afterwards
that resulted in a real gain. I also read from an older Nissan Silvia that
had no intercoolers and with the help of the "small" system they could crank
up bosot from 7 to 9 psi.

Roger
93'3000GT TT

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 8 07:50:17 1999
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Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 10:49:19 EDT
Subject: Re: Team3S: Stutter
To: ie886@cleveland.freenet.edu, stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
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In a message dated 8/8/99 7:40:38 AM Central Daylight Time,
ie886@cleveland.Freenet.Edu writes:

<< BUT sometimes if I get spunky, and forget
about throttle modulation, boost will hit 23+ and I get a fuel cut reminder.
>>

Excellent post, John!

I am curious; How are you able to hit 23 psi of boost? Do you have an
HKS VPC? I experience fuel cut at anything close to 18-20psi in Cold weater
(I do NOT have the VPC and have yet to install my new Apex'i Super AFC as
soon as I get my VR4 back from the body shop); In hot weather I may be able
to hit 20psi with no fuel cut.

Thanks in advance,

Ahmed "AL-Crazy" - '92 VR4
GReddy Profec B boost controller, GReddy turbo timer, Apex'i sequential
b.o.v., SPI motorsport boost gauge & pillar pod, K&N filtercharger, Alamo
Downpipe, Hi-flow cat, Borla exhaust, Magnecore 8.5mm wires & new NGK spark
plugs gapped at .032, Apex'i New liquid crystal Super AFC (not installed
yet), KVR Cross drilled rotors with carbon fiber pads, Nitto Power Extreme
NT-555 (255/40/17's) tires, Enkei RP-O1 17x9 (42mm offset) racing wheels &
Eibach Pro-Kit Springs (not installed yet).
&
1987 Grand National (for sale): way too many mods to list!
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 8 08:01:58 1999
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From: "Dennis Moore" <stealth@kiva.net>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <003801bee1ac$132ea0c0$951ee6c2@roger>
Subject: Team3S: Thanks (and post mortem on the tranny)
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 10:05:53 -0500
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Thanks to all you S/3K and Miata owners/drivers who offered your comments.
I appreciate your input.

And an update on the tranny: Matt and Vineet (sp?) were correct in
identifying the culprit. The damage in my case was a bit extreme, the 5th
gear nut having punched a hole through the end cap as it backed itself
completely off the shaft. The final tally is about $330, which includes
replacing the nut, end cap, one of the gears in the 5th gear assembly,
tranny fluid change, and a 30 mile flatbed trip from my house to the car
doctors'.

Morals of the story: 1) if you're tranny shifter knob starts bouncing back
and forth when you get on and off the gas in 5th gear, take off the front
passenger tire and splash guard, remove the tranny end cap, replace the nut,
and reassemble; and 2) when you ask for advice from this group, act on it
sooner rather than later. I could have saved myself about $100 or so if I'd
followed Matt's instructions the first time he offered them. ;)

Once again, I'm glad this group exists. Thanks for your help.

Dennis Moore
93 Stealth ES (soon to be whole again!)
stealth@kiva.net

To the optimist, the glass is half full.
To the pessimist, the glass is half-empty.
To the engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
The pragmatist, being thirsty, drinks the water.

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 8 08:06:59 1999
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Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 11:06:14 EDT
Subject: Re: Team3S: "Track exhaust"; Was (Stutter)
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In a message dated 8/8/99 9:42:27 AM Central Daylight Time, robby@freesurf.ch
writes:

<< BTW, what do you mean by "track exhaust" ?? >>

Hi Roger & John,

I already responded to John a few minutes ago (without reading Roger's
response - still catching up to all my email messages!) with a short post
re: this thread.

I would assume what John meant with "track exhaust" is that he dumped his
exhaust straight from his turbos (NO downpipe) or downpipe into the
atmosphere (NOT street legal and I would assume pretty loud and quite
dangerous with the excessive heat build up under the vehicle). Definitely
would help with 1/4 mile track times! I use this method with my 1987 Buick
Regal Grand National (Downpipe with test pipe & dump - NOT street legal- only
for Track purposes ;-)
So could you imagine how much quicker your 1/4 mile time would be if you
dump straight from the turbos?!! (removal of stock downpipe) Very dangerous
with all that heat build up under the vehicle!
As for the high boost levels, I agree with you Roger! That's just asking
for a time bomb to explode! John, I would highly advise you to monitor your
engine via EGT gauge! Running that high of boost (23+) is definitely
risky!!! Good luck!!!!!

Talk to you soon,

Ahmed "AL-Crazy" - '92 VR4
GReddy Profec B boost controller, GReddy turbo timer, Apex'i sequential
b.o.v., SPI motorsport boost gauge & pillar pod, K&N filtercharger, Alamo
Downpipe, Hi-flow cat, Borla exhaust, Magnecore 8.5mm wires & new NGK spark
plugs gapped at .032, Apex'i New liquid crystal Super AFC (not installed
yet), KVR Cross drilled rotors with carbon fiber pads, Nitto Power Extreme
NT-555 (255/40/17's) tires, Enkei RP-O1 17x9 (42mm offset) racing wheels &
Eibach Pro-Kit Springs (not installed yet).
&
1987 Grand National (for sale): way too many mods to list!



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 8 08:55:32 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: "Track exhaust";
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 17:48:15 +0200
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Yes, a "track" exhaust , i.e. removing dp, really helps to let the stuff
freeflow and the stock turbos may be really able to produce the 23psi then.
Of course the pre cats should be gutted too as the rear one is not easy to
be removed !

I agree with the high temps then especially close to the transfer case and
the fron plastic parts.

A really good track exhaust would be :

- gutting the pre-cats
- after market dp without testpipe
- testpipe that is bent to the drivers side

Someone tested this already ?

Roger
92'3000GT TT

> I would assume what John meant with "track exhaust" is that he dumped
his
>exhaust straight from his turbos (NO downpipe) or downpipe into the
>atmosphere (NOT street legal and I would assume pretty loud and quite
>dangerous with the excessive heat build up under the vehicle). Definitely
>would help with 1/4 mile track times! I use this method with my 1987 Buick
>Regal Grand National (Downpipe with test pipe & dump - NOT street legal-
only
>for Track purposes ;-)


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 8 08:55:34 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Stutter (AFC ...)
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Ahmed,

>(I do NOT have the VPC and have yet to install my new Apex'i Super AFC as
>soon as I get my VR4 back from the body shop); In hot weather I may be able
>to hit 20psi with no fuel cut.

What do you think that the AFC will do good for you ? Your listing showed no
larger injectors so what have you done that you'll not hit fuel cut then ?
Do you want to increase fuel around 5500 ... just forget it. You'll get fuel
cut much earlier than you do now. Unless you've larger injectors installed
you can only set the mixture leaner and we know that this doesn't help to
get rid of hesitations and fuel cut. An AFC without larger injectors is a
waste of money (my very own experience !)

Roger
93'3000GT TT


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 8 09:09:57 1999
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From: "Meyer" <meyer2@erols.com>
To: "team3s" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Pictures of carbon fiber hood
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 12:08:59 -0400
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All:

I just took some digi picturs of my carbon Fiber Hood and would like to send
them to anybody who is interested in buying it. I know a few of you
e-mailed me asking for pictures, but I lost your letters. So, drop me an
e-mail and I will reply with the pictures some time today. Once again, it
is brand new and it is for sale for $900 firm. I also have a fiberglass
erebuni Shogun front bumper for sale for $400 that can be seen at
www.spoilers.com

Serious inquires only please.....


Matt



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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 8 11:18:24 1999
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From: "Accelerated Accessories" <meyer2@erols.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Diamond Star t shirts for sale
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 14:19:17 -0400
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0245_01BEE1A9.001D5EC0
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I still have some diamond star zum T shirts left (Large and x Large). =
They are 100% cotton and have a pic of a nice red 3000GT on them. If =
anyone is interested drop me an e mail or give me a call at =
301-393-8800. The shirts can be seen at www.AcceleratedAccessories.com =
They are $14.99 plus shipping. Visa and Mastercard Accepted.
=20
Matt

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I still have some diamond star zum T =
shirts left=20
(Large and x Large). They are 100% cotton and have a pic of a nice red =
3000GT on=20
them.&nbsp; If anyone is interested drop me an e mail or give me a call =
at=20
301-393-8800.&nbsp; The shirts can be seen at <A=20
href=3D"http://www.AcceleratedAccessories.com">www.AcceleratedAccessories=
.com</A>&nbsp;=20
They are $14.99 plus shipping.&nbsp; Visa and Mastercard =
Accepted.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>Matt</FONT></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0245_01BEE1A9.001D5EC0--

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In a message dated 8/8/99 10:55:55 AM Central Daylight Time,
robby@freesurf.ch writes:

<< What do you think that the AFC will do good for you ? Your listing showed
no
larger injectors so what have you done that you'll not hit fuel cut then ?
Do you want to increase fuel around 5500 ... just forget it. You'll get fuel
cut much earlier than you do now. Unless you've larger injectors installed
you can only set the mixture leaner and we know that this doesn't help to
get rid of hesitations and fuel cut. An AFC without larger injectors is a
waste of money (my very own experience !)

Roger
93'3000GT TT
>>

Thanks Roger,

I haven't installed the New Apex'i Super AFC yet due to the fact that my
VR4 is in the body shop; but I will soon have the 550cc. injectors, HKS fuel
pump and bigger turbos installed; I appreciate you watching out for me!

Ahmed "AL-Crazy"

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 00:24:56 EDT
Subject: Re: Team3S: "Track exhaust";
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In a message dated 8/8/99 10:55:55 AM Central Daylight Time,
robby@freesurf.ch writes:

<< I agree with the high temps then especially close to the transfer case and
the fron plastic parts.

A really good track exhaust would be :

- gutting the pre-cats
- after market dp without testpipe
- testpipe that is bent to the drivers side

Someone tested this already ?
>>

I had posted this same question about a year ago and had minimal response; no
one informed me if they tried this or not; I was seriously contemplating on
trying this method as I have done with my Buick GN; but someone from our
liste advised me NOT to attempt this DUMP method (testpipe that is bent to
the driver's side). I would assume that would truly help in 1/4 mile times!
So I simply decided to gut all cats and go with the Alamo DP and Borla
exhaust.

Ahmed "AL-Crazy"
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 8 22:00:27 1999
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To: stealth@starnet.net,
"stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: 3S List Endurance Race Project?
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Endurance Racing Project!

Hmm, maybe we should consider a small (or large) group effort for a 24 Hours
of
Nelson Ledges...would be good to have a few drivers and some
crew/support...of course, what sort of car and all would depend on the
rules specifics. I'd be happy to run a light weight, lower hp car easy on
brakes, mostly stock = reliable, like a Honda CRX (I have one :) Better
yet, maybe a MITSUBISHI/Dodge Colt, they run forever, with a big
Triple Diamond on the hood/doors, 3000/Stealth Internet sites...Will have to
find out
what races are out there (12 hrs Sebring, whatever at Nelson...Daytona
is likely way too high dollar for an initial "Army of Darkness Racing"
type Shoestring-Operation-Against-the-World effort...
What on-track experience/licensure might be required by the sanctioning
body...

I bet Barry King the ex-cycle racer would sign onto this; wonder who else
I could con into it...Shawn Dewey is still lurking out there, and has good
experience...
John Christian...David Skultety...many others...I bet we could put together
QUITE the
group of mostly-ameteur Enthusiasts to make a minor go of a once-
(if EVER)-in-a-lifetime "24 Hours of Someplace" race.
The Stories we'd be able to tell until the day we died!
Oh, the Humanities! Oh, the Horror...24 hours of keeping a little
Mitsubishi box running...Shockproof Heavy in the transaxle...
Mobil 1 15W50...little, inexpensive tires and stock rims...

Of course, doing it in a 3000GT would be the pinnacle, but maybe the
first year in a little SuperInexpensive car as a first year feasibility/fun
quotient study? It could be a King of "Gatherings"...we'd drive there in
our various 3000GTs and Stealths;I have a new enclosed trailer and an old
Suburban tow vehicle could be used; and whatever happened, at the end,
we'd go home with good memories, new friends, and would undoubtedly make a
minor
name for ourselves as a Group of people most of whom never saw each
other before, who got together such an effort mostly by Internet--whose
commonality
is 3000GT and Stealths! Talk about an unlikely group to do such a thing...
It could be great, just the attempting it! If we were able to actually
FINISH the
whole race running, we'd be WAY ahead of the curve! What place we'd be in
would be mostly unimportant, it would be the DOING of it...

Would have to be prepared with lots of spare brakes, tires/rims, and
various alcoholic beverages--in case the thing broke irreparably before the
full race was run... [cackle maniacally]...
Shall I send out the Gumballs in the mail? Who might be in for such a
thing?!

Jack Tertadian
Member, Road Warrior Contingent, 3000GT Mailing Lists


Merritt wrote:

> Dr. Jack T and I are thinking about sharing a car for the 24 hr at Nelsons.
>
> Rich/old poop

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 8 23:30:08 1999
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Message-ID: <007c01bee231$88073080$f63b11cf@carlos>
From: "Carlos Q" <pir8ska@shadow.net>
To: "Team3s list" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Active aero removal question....
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 02:36:36 -0400
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Most people have said that the only functional part of the VR-4's (I
personally have a 1992) active aero system is the front air dam (which was
constantly getting stuck on my car). My problem is that I am trying to do
something a little on the "custom" side regarding an intercooler for my car,
so I have completely removed the plastic underside and the motor that
controls it.

What happens now is that the "aero" light comes on in the dashboard as soon
as the aero system disengages, and dissallows further use of it until you
reset it (turning off the car, removing key, re-starting). Does anyone know
a work around for this? I'd like to still be able to use the spoiler (if
nothing else, because I like how it looks...)

Thanks alot!
Carlos

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 8 23:51:35 1999
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From: "Carlos Q" <pir8ska@shadow.net>
To: <stealth@dragnet.com>, "Team3s list" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>,
<stealth@starnet.net>
Subject: Team3S: Aftermarket hoods and whatnot
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 02:58:02 -0400
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Since I saw the posts from the guys at accelerated accessories about a
carbon fiber hood, I remembered: wasn't someone going to try and make a mold
for carbon fiber and fiberglass hoods that had a hood scoop (like that of a
viper gts) and vents at the strut covers? did this plan go anywhere? does
anyone have any information on this?

BTW, to the people at accelerated: that is a Beautiful hood! did you
actually have those made? Or were you just carrying someone elses hood? if
so, who makes it?

Wishing I had enough money to get that CF hood,
Carlos

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 9 00:33:56 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Stutter (AFC ...)
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> I haven't installed the New Apex'i Super AFC yet due to the fact that
my
>VR4 is in the body shop; but I will soon have the 550cc. injectors, HKS
fuel
>pump and bigger turbos installed; I appreciate you watching out for me!


Makes sense :) Let us know how the new AFC works with the 550 on our cars.

Roger
93'3000GT TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 9 00:34:00 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "Team3s list" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Aftermarket hoods and whatnot
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:33:29 +0200
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>Since I saw the posts from the guys at accelerated accessories about a
>carbon fiber hood, I remembered: wasn't someone going to try and make a
mold
>for carbon fiber and fiberglass hoods that had a hood scoop (like that of a
>viper gts) and vents at the strut covers? did this plan go anywhere? does
>anyone have any information on this?

Brian from GT PRO has a mold of the 1st gen hood taken from his own car.
It's possible to create some ducting or scoops but the problem is money-wise
related. It's a larger pre-investment by any reseller to let the hoods been
made (some of them at once to keep the initial costs per hood low) and then
selling the $1000 hoods is not that easy. I think if he's getting an order
of ten he'd do it immediatly.

Roger
93'3000GT TT



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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 9 03:04:09 1999
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Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?= <vr4@bahnhof.se>
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?= <vr4@bahnhof.se>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Important Getrag info (must read!)
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 12:02:12 +0200
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The Getrag gearbox and transfercase have been discussed here hundreds of times.

I was driving ~110 km/h when I heard a terrible grinding sound from under the car and the rear wheels locked up. I managed to get the car to the side of the road without an accident. I'm very glad that this didn't happen in higher speed or in a curve because if it had then I probably couldn't be writing this...

There is a myth going around saying that the "mighty Getrag" can't be fixed. To kill that myth I fixed my transfer case by myself. Total cost for repair ~125$. (Mitsu qouted me over 2000$)

I have documented the whole "operation" of a Getrag transfer case with pictures of every part and also references to part numbers. Read all about it on my web page http://www.3000gt.nu (click on "Getrag")

Regards

Mikael Akesson http://www.3000gt.nu






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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 9 04:54:19 1999
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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 07:54:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: ie886@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John T. Christian)
To: TurboDrvn@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Stutter
Cc: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com, bsc4@po.cwru.edu
Reply-To: ie886@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John T. Christian)
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Hi Amhed,

Reply to message from TurboDrvn@aol.com of Sun, 08 Aug
>
[snip]
jc><< BUT sometimes if I get spunky, and forget about
jc>> throttle modulation, boost will hit 23+ and I get a fuel cut reminder.
> >>

am> I am curious; How are you able to hit 23 psi of boost?
---> 23 is ONLY momentary..... as above "I get a fuel cut reminder". I'm
also in third in the carrosell at anywhere between 65-80 with partial
throttle. Just before the apex I start squeezing the throttle to WOT. So
the boost increases rapidly and I have to remember to modulate the throttle
before I get a fuel cut reminder. FC is no fun especially near the limit
of tire adheasion in a turn. Definitely increases the pucker factor...

> Do you have an HKS VPC?
--->No fancy stuff. Just a pressure regulator for manual boost control, a
track exhaust and a K&N. And as of last week new plugs to go with the 13gs
I installed two weeks ago.

> I experience fuel cut at anything close to 18-20psi in Cold weater
>(I do NOT have the VPC and have yet to install my new Apex'i Super AFC as
>soon as I get my VR4 back from the body shop); In hot weather I may be able
>to hit 20psi with no fuel cut.
---> 18-20 did not seem to be a problem on the front straight. But
remember --- this is not sustained for a looooonnng time as number one turn
comes up quickly. The front straight [distance between 13(hairpin) and
1] is probably <1/8 mile. Yeh, that's about right cause I'm coming out of
13 in second, shift into third, hit about 100+, but start braking for 1
before I hit redline.

Perhaps the difference is that I burn Sunoco 94 and use a liberal amount of
Octane booster. As I found out the cause of the orangeish/redish color of
my plugs.

Be of good cheer

>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Ahmed "AL-Crazy" - '92 VR4

--
JCZoooM '93 Stealth TT Blue almost stock 12.46 @109 MPH
e-mail: ie886@po.cwru.edu www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 9 05:16:26 1999
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From: "Kevin Schappell" <kevin@pacarsearch.com>
To: "'Carlos Q'" <pir8ska@shadow.net>, <stealth@dragnet.com>,
"'Team3s list'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>,
<stealth@starnet.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Aftermarket hoods and whatnot
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Carlos,

Could not get the front opening large enuff to feed the intake. I want a
totally sealed system, but to do that I will need a pretty large duct. I am
going to search the salvage yards for a hood that I can butcher. Some NACA
ducts and maybe a low rise cowl induction scoop in the middle.


Kevin Schappell
Auto Answers
Pennsylvania's newest and hottest automotive classifieds site.
http://www.pacarsearch.com



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Carlos Q
Sent: Monday, August 09, 1999 2:58 AM
To: stealth@dragnet.com; Team3s list; stealth@starnet.net
Subject: Team3S: Aftermarket hoods and whatnot


Since I saw the posts from the guys at accelerated accessories about a
carbon fiber hood, I remembered: wasn't someone going to try and make a mold
for carbon fiber and fiberglass hoods that had a hood scoop (like that of a
viper gts) and vents at the strut covers? did this plan go anywhere? does
anyone have any information on this?

BTW, to the people at accelerated: that is a Beautiful hood! did you
actually have those made? Or were you just carrying someone elses hood? if
so, who makes it?

Wishing I had enough money to get that CF hood,
Carlos

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http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 9 06:20:13 1999
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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:19:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: ie886@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John T. Christian)
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Re: Team 3S: "Track exhaust"
Cc: ie886@po.cwru.edu, bsc4@po.cwru.edu
Reply-To: ie886@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John T. Christian)
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Hi all,

My track exhaust is in two pieces and just as long as the stock exhaust
system. The downpipe is about 3' and the rest goes to the rear bumper.
The downpipe attaches directly to the front turbo and to the rear precat.
"Someone" must have removed the stuff in the rear precat. The primary is
about 2" and goes into a collector. The rest is 3" with a Dynomax
(muffler??). Some racing clubs/courses don't permit OPEN exhausts.
Unfortunately there is no flex coupling (YET), so I have to repair the
welds in the downpipe frequeltly.
Does somone make a flex section similar to the stock downpipe???? I
don't want to cut and use the stock ones as I have to reinstall the stock
exhaust system to pass PA emission inspection every year.

The track exhaust is very light compared to the stock system. As I recall
the downpipe was about 4 lbs and the rest was about 15lbs. The stock
system is hanging in my garage and I'll weigh it after lunch and post.
I've heard 100 pounds is worth .10 sec in the 1/4 mile.

The pownpipe has a high temp coating by JetHot which reportedly reduces
under hood temperatures. When new it did look real neat.

SOUND It really isn't TOO LOUD. I drive it to and from the road courses
pulling my tire trailer and never been stopped. Just have to avoid WOT.
I also drive it to Church on Sundays...... Low mileage used sports car.

Be of good cheer

--
JCZoooM '93 Stealth TT Blue almost stock 12.46 @109 MPH 5/97
currently 7/99 13G's manual boost K&N track exhaust
e-mail: ie886@po.cwru.edu www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 9 06:28:31 1999
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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:27:21 EDT
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Team 3S: "Track exhaust"
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In a message dated 8/9/99 8:22:03 AM Central Daylight Time,
ie886@cleveland.Freenet.Edu writes:

<< Does somone make a flex section similar to the stock downpipe???? I
don't want to cut and use the stock ones as I have to reinstall the stock
exhaust system to pass PA emission inspection every year.
>>

Hey John,

Alamo has a Dowpipe with the Flex section for our cars.

Later,

Ahmed "AL-Crazy"
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 9 07:56:31 1999
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"stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 3S List Endurance Race Project?
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At 11:58 AM 8/9/99 -0500, xwing wrote:
>Endurance Racing Project!
>Hmm, maybe we should consider a small (or large) group effort for a 24 Hours
>of Nelson Ledges...would be good to have a few drivers and some
>crew/support...of course, what sort of car and all would depend on the
>rules specifics.

Yep. Here's one biggie: What kind of competition license do we all need?
It could be very expensive getting an SCCA pro license.
Here's another: What rules govern the car? If we need all that SCCA safety
stuff, it gets very expensive.


.Will have to
>find out what races are out there (12 hrs Sebring, whatever at Nelson)

The only two I can think of for our low-buck "Army of Darkness" team is
Nelson Ledges and the Loooooong Race at Blackhawk Farms (whatever that is
... it *sounds* like an enduro, though)

..I bet we could put together
>QUITE the
>group of mostly-ameteur Enthusiasts to make a minor go of a once-
>(if EVER)-in-a-lifetime "24 Hours of Someplace" race.

If everybody's stint lasts for a tank of gas, then each stint would be
about an hour.
If we have four drivers, that's six stints each.
Sounds workable to me.
If Jack donated the CRX to the cause, and three others each kicked in $800,
that would be a race/prep budget of $2400. That should buy two sets of
tires, some spare parts like brake pads, entry fee, and...what else do we
need?.

Count me in.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 9 08:01:13 1999
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To: "Stealth List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Team 3S: "Track exhaust"
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:45:48 +0200
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Hey, wait before spending mucho $$$ for something you alread have !!

I've put a small flex section into the dp between the two turbo downlets to
prevent vibration from one to each other. I haven't found a 3" flex section
yet to prevent the vibration from final dp section.

Roger
93'3000GT TT

><< Does somone make a flex section similar to the stock downpipe???? I
> don't want to cut and use the stock ones as I have to reinstall the stock
> exhaust system to pass PA emission inspection every year.
> >>
>
>Hey John,
>
> Alamo has a Dowpipe with the Flex section for our cars.


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 9 08:10:40 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Team 3S: "Track exhaust"
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 17:10:26 +0200
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>My track exhaust is in two pieces and just as long as the stock exhaust
>system. The downpipe is about 3' and the rest goes to the rear bumper.
>The downpipe attaches directly to the front turbo and to the rear precat.
>"Someone" must have removed the stuff in the rear precat. The primary is
>about 2" and goes into a collector. The rest is 3" with a Dynomax
>(muffler??).

Therefore the exhaust is single sided, isn't it ? It's a real exhaust what
you have but of course only for track useage as the cat is not there.

>I don't want to cut and use the stock ones as I have to reinstall the stock
>exhaust system to pass PA emission inspection every year.

When was the last test you have done ? With or without rear pre-cat ?

>The track exhaust is very light compared to the stock system. As I recall
>the downpipe was about 4 lbs and the rest was about 15lbs. The stock
>system is hanging in my garage and I'll weigh it after lunch and post.

Yes, any aftermarket exhaust without cat and flex sections is much lighter
compared to the stock stuff. An option for you would be to have an ATR
test-pipe and cat handy. Both will simply be bolt onto the 3" piping with
clamps. You can cut the piping somewhere after the joint where the dp ends.
The ATR stuff just slides over the piping. Replacement / changing can be
done pretty fast and you don't have to care about the air and the test with
a good high flow cat.

Roger
93'3000GT TT


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 9 11:21:56 1999
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Has anyone experienced a leak in the oil line that attaches to the oil
filter assembly. It appears very wet and quite rusted at the clamp
where the two oil filter lines are supported. Any ideas?

Don
1993 R/T TT
3si # 152
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 9 11:43:33 1999
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From: "Palamara, Peter" <pala@gwl.com>
To: "'stealth@starnet.net'" <stealth@starnet.net>,
"'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: copper head gaskets
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 12:38:56 -0600
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Does anyone know of a good reputable place that sells or makes copper head
gaskets for our 3.0 liter's at a thickness of .60 instead of the usual .30 .
I only found one place on the internet and they were way overpriced! Thanx

92 3000 GTO S.C.
Soon to be exactly what the plates say :)
Plates (HIPRESR)
1-800-888-gwla x4733

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 9 12:37:25 1999
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References: <002601bee278$007c1f80$438a83d8@RGERL012599_000.peoplesoft.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Team 3S: "Track exhaust"
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----- Original Message -----
From: R.G. <robby@freesurf.ch>
>I haven't found a 3" flex section yet to prevent the vibration from final dp section.

I can get 3" flex sections in any length you want. They are actually slightly larger than 3" so you can slide them over a 3" pipe. Let me know what length you want and I'll get back to you with price.

/Mikael

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 9 12:59:11 1999
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From: "Wallis, Gavin" <WallisG@MWAA.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Brakes
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:00:33 -0400
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Can someone briefly remind me of the run down on rotors. Powerslots crack
under auto-x, Roger had some bremsa's that he seemed pretty happy with, btw-
roger the link seems to be dead for the bremsas on your page..double btw-
price Roger? Power stops = ? And any others....

I'm going to replace my stock rotors very soon because they are warped, old,
and rusted to hell and back. However since i've got about $5000 mods planned
for this shop visit, i'm trying not to break the bank.

Thanks,
Gavin

'94 Black VR-4
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 9 13:45:10 1999
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From: "Palamara, Peter" <pala@gwl.com>
To: "'codsm@salmi.dynip.com'" <codsm@salmi.dynip.com>,
"'stealth@starnet.net'" <stealth@starnet.net>,
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Subject: Team3S: RE: copper head gaskets
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 14:40:14 -0600
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I should put also even if someone knows of a place that even makes copper
head gaskets for 3.o's . I wasn't very clear on the question sorry.

92 3000 GTO S.C.
Soon to be exactly what the plates say :)
Plates (HIPRESR)
1-800-888-gwla x4733


-----Original Message-----
From: Palamara, Peter
Sent: Monday, August 09, 1999 2:22 PM
To: codsm@salmi.dynip.com
Subject: copper head gaskets


Does anyone know of a good reputable place that sells or makes copper head
gaskets for our 3.0 liter's at a thickness of .60 instead of the usual .30 .
I only found one place on the internet and they were way overpriced! Thanx


92 3000 GTO S.C.
Soon to be exactly what the plates say :)
Plates (HIPRESR)
1-800-888-gwla x4733

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 10 04:24:32 1999
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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 13:24:26 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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Subject: Team3S: VPC for sale (3S cars)
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Ok, since my upgrade path changed slightly I'm selling the following :

HKS VPC with :
- 91-93 3000GT/Stealth harness (must be changed for 94+)
- 4 Programs (all for 720cc Denso injectors, yellow top)
1) VPC-W80 (720cc)
2) W80 +10%
3) W80 +20%
4) W80 +30%
- boost sensor (special 3bar sensor, better resolution then Denso)
- plenum temp sensor
- GCC I (5 potis, same look/size as VPC, brandnew in box)

Some smaller parts I do not have are:
- Barb T fitting
- Tee fitting
- clamps for hoses
- NPT adapter for air temp sensor
(I can get them in the local shops if you want)

To make the VPC work on 94+ cars "only" the harness must be changed as the ECU
connectors are different. Nothing else have to be made but don't ask me more
about this (I just don't know).

I'm also able to get you a 550cc program for free if necessary but no further
modifications are possible. Also a DSM EPROM is possible but you'll have to get
a another harness from HKS.

Please note that each individual program was about $90 as well as the special
MAP sensor is another $100 (my own R-TEC upgrade). Therefore, the price I paid
for everything about a year ago was about $1480 (already a special price)

As it was test-installed once I'll let everything go for $990 (sniff)
--------------------------------------------------------------------

I think this is a fair price as I don't want to make money out of the stuff.

I myself have verified that the stuff works and it looks almost new (the GCC is
new). Please also note that shipping should be paid (about $30) by you and
therefore a friend in Europe will mostly benefit of this (the VPC costs $1850
here, if availale) My local customers do not go over any boost
controller/exhaust mods.

I also have a Blitz SUS Power Filter. This is a metallic mesh filter without any
element. It's a piece of art, big and I also got a round adapter that fits the
rubber intake part after the MAS. The adapter is plain aluminum and would look
better polished or so. I would have to create another adapter as it interfers
with the water injection pump I just installed and I have currently no use for
it (it doesn't fit the stock MAS)

I'm asking $280 for the Blitz SUS including custom made adapter.
---------------------------------------------------------------

I'd drop the price another $50 if both are taken together.

For payment I do accept checks but would prefer wired money. I do also have an
account for my shares in the States but this costs me $20 per money transfer. If
you're in so.cal. we also can figure out direct payment to my friends and I ship
them the package. Null problemo.

If you have further questions, please send me any emails privately. I can also
take some digi-pics of the parts you'll get. Please also note that I send this
message to the DSM parts trader, the 3S message board and the Starnet list
(should I really ?) and add it for a $50 higher price.

To be honest, I already made a big loss (some of you remember) and I cannot go
lower. Therefore, please only reply if you accept the pricing.

Happy modding
Roger, Switzerland
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 10 06:10:40 1999
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From: "Edwin Shaw" <seawulf@sgi.net>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: [stealth] Aftermarket hoods and whatnot
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:07:11 -0400
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A company called GTPRO out in california are in the process of making anew
ram air carbon fiber hood specifiacally for 3000GT's, they have a carbon
fiber hood without the ram air but i don't recall the price
-----Original Message-----
From: Carlos Q <pir8ska@shadow.net>
To: stealth@dragnet.com <stealth@dragnet.com>; Team3s list
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>; stealth@starnet.net <stealth@starnet.net>
Date: Monday, August 09, 1999 3:04 AM
Subject: [stealth] Aftermarket hoods and whatnot


>Since I saw the posts from the guys at accelerated accessories about a
>carbon fiber hood, I remembered: wasn't someone going to try and make a
mold
>for carbon fiber and fiberglass hoods that had a hood scoop (like that of a
>viper gts) and vents at the strut covers? did this plan go anywhere? does
>anyone have any information on this?
>
>BTW, to the people at accelerated: that is a Beautiful hood! did you
>actually have those made? Or were you just carrying someone elses hood? if
>so, who makes it?
>
>Wishing I had enough money to get that CF hood,
>Carlos
>
>
>--
>[ You are subscribed to the stealth@dragnet.com e-mail list. If you wish
>to unsubscribe, send a NEW message to 'stealth-request@dragnet.com' with
>a SUBJECT of "REMOVE". If you need help with getting the digest version,
>setting flags, or other commands, instead use a subject of "HELP".]
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 10 06:25:34 1999
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From: "Kevin Schappell" <kevin@pacarsearch.com>
To: "'Edwin Shaw'" <seawulf@sgi.net>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: [stealth] Aftermarket hoods and whatnot
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:11:04 -0400
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I talked with Brian from GTPro and the hood without the ram air is available
for $849 + shipping. I do have a pic of the hood with the vents and center
opening but it does not appear to be a true ram air setup. This was a
"one-off" hood for his car, but he did say he could make some up for a
price. E-mail me off list if you would like me to send you a pic of the
hood.

Kevin Schappell
Auto Answers
Pennsylvania's newest and hottest automotive classifieds site.
http://www.pacarsearch.com



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Edwin Shaw
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 9:07 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Re: [stealth] Aftermarket hoods and whatnot


A company called GTPRO out in california are in the process of making anew
ram air carbon fiber hood specifiacally for 3000GT's, they have a carbon
fiber hood without the ram air but i don't recall the price



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 10 06:40:51 1999
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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 08:40:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: [stealth] Aftermarket hoods and whatnot
In-Reply-To: <000001bee331$cdc38c80$289910cf@kevin>
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Isn't this the same "Brian" from GT-Alley who was blacklisted a few months
ago? I had no personal dealings with him, but others on this list and the
starnet list did, and didn't have much good to say about the experience.
If so, "caveat emptor". If not, just punch the "delete" button on this
message.

Dennis Moore
stealth@kiva.net

Yes, I'm afraid you *did* go to college for this job.

On Tue, 10 Aug 1999, Kevin Schappell wrote:

> I talked with Brian from GTPro and the hood without the ram air is available

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 10 07:13:24 1999
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From: "Kevin Schappell" <kevin@pacarsearch.com>
To: "'Dennis Moore'" <stealth@kiva.net>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: [stealth] Aftermarket hoods and whatnot
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:58:14 -0400
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Thanks for the heads up. I came to this list before that episode but I did
read about the problems somewhere. I think most of the problems came from
his partner but I am not sure. I am not going to spend that kind of money
on a hood when I can find one in the junk yard and butcher it up myself. :-)
I am more concerned with getting air into the engine than light weight
carbon fiber.

Kevin Schappell
Auto Answers
Pennsylvania's newest and hottest automotive classifieds site.
http://www.pacarsearch.com



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Dennis Moore
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 9:41 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: [stealth] Aftermarket hoods and whatnot


Isn't this the same "Brian" from GT-Alley who was blacklisted a few months
ago? I had no personal dealings with him, but others on this list and the
starnet list did, and didn't have much good to say about the experience.
If so, "caveat emptor". If not, just punch the "delete" button on this
message.

Dennis Moore
stealth@kiva.net

Yes, I'm afraid you *did* go to college for this job.

On Tue, 10 Aug 1999, Kevin Schappell wrote:

> I talked with Brian from GTPro and the hood without the ram air is
available

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 10 08:10:29 1999
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Reply-To: "Jeffrey Young" <jefyoung@ix.netcom.com>
From: "Jeffrey Young" <jefyoung@ix.netcom.com>
To: "Stealth - Team 3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Polishing & Buffing
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:08:06 -0600
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List Members;

Since I have had a number of requests concerning the polishing and buffing
of engine parts, I have decided to put a POLISHING page on my web site (URL
below signature line). This is just a start-up page as I will be adding
more in the future. I am currently working on a members plenum and will be
taking pictures step by step. That page will be up next week. I also have
posted some prices if you want me to polish your parts (sounds kinda dirty
don't it).


Jeffrey
92 RT/Turbo
www.omega-sw.com/stealth

P.S. Be patient...my ISP has been having problems and been running REAL SLOW

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 10 08:11:05 1999
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Reply-To: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "Stealth List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Water Injection tank
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 17:10:48 +0200
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I've been asked several times if the headlight washer tank we have on our EU
cars is available. It's 3.5 liter big and has also a level switch you can
use for a smal LED or something else.

Mitsu part# in EU is : MR 108198 (headlight washer tank) price : ~$50

I don't know if it fits any non-EU cars but it looks like only the mounting
holes are not there. This is one of the easiest water tank solution for any
non-pressurised WI system on our cars :))

For pictures, check out the water injection page on my site. I have much
more close-ups so just drop me a line if you need some pics.

Regards,
Roger, Switzerland
93'3000GT TT


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 10 08:25:52 1999
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From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
To: "Dennis Moore" <stealth@kiva.net>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990810083729.23443A-100000@sherrill.kiva.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: [stealth] Aftermarket hoods and whatnot
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Tis one and the same --- caveat is worth considering!!!!!!!!!

Jim Berry


> Isn't this the same "Brian" from GT-Alley who was blacklisted a few months
> ago? I had no personal dealings with him, but others on this list and the
> starnet list did, and didn't have much good to say about the experience.
> If so, "caveat emptor". If not, just punch the "delete" button on this
> message.
>


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 10 08:29:46 1999
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From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection tank
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:29:21 CDT
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Another solution that Matt Jannusch came up with, is to put in a smaller
battery. Black Panther makes a high output battery that is about 1/3 the
size of a regular battery. This leaves you enough room to mount the Spearco
tank next to the battery and the strut buldge. I am in the process of doing
this same thing. One of the best things about it, is the water only has
about 1 foot to travel from the tank to the y-pipe. The pump that comes
with the Spearco unit is kind of weak, so the shorter the distance the
better.

The only bad thing about the Black Panther batteries, is it costs around
$170. But its 800 amps, only weighs 23 lbs, and I think you could leave
your headlights on for two days before the battery would die.

I'll let everyone know how the install goes. This setup worked good for
Matt, even for some hard Autocrossing, and we all know that the Water
Injection works really well on John Basol's car. :)

By the way, one other Minn 3/S member is putting water injection in soon.
By next week, four Minnesota 3/Sers will have water injection. What are the
rest of you waiting for?? hehe. :)

One last breath.... Matt at Accelerated carries the Spearco unit, if you
want one.......

later,
Curt G,
95 R/T TT
and author of Minnesota 3/S at: http://www.mn3s.org



>From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
>Reply-To: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
>To: "Stealth List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Subject: Team3S: Water Injection tank
>Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 17:10:48 +0200
>
>I've been asked several times if the headlight washer tank we have on our
>EU
>cars is available. It's 3.5 liter big and has also a level switch you can
>use for a smal LED or something else.
>
>Mitsu part# in EU is : MR 108198 (headlight washer tank) price : ~$50
>
>I don't know if it fits any non-EU cars but it looks like only the mounting
>holes are not there. This is one of the easiest water tank solution for any
>non-pressurised WI system on our cars :))
>
>For pictures, check out the water injection page on my site. I have much
>more close-ups so just drop me a line if you need some pics.
>
>Regards,
>Roger, Switzerland
>93'3000GT TT
>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 10 09:27:36 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "Team3S List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection tank
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:15:36 +0200
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>Another solution that Matt Jannusch came up with, is to put in a smaller
>battery. Black Panther makes a high output battery that is about 1/3 the
>size of a regular battery.

Too bad this one is not available here :((

>I'll let everyone know how the install goes. This setup worked good for
>Matt, even for some hard Autocrossing, and we all know that the Water
>Injection works really well on John Basol's car. :)

Hey,what about pictures of this stuff too ?

Later
Roger
93'3000GT TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 10 13:08:22 1999
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From: "Vineet Singh" <billi_gates@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Fuel injectors... Sizes, musings.
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 12:43:54 PDT
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I know my 91 A/T AWD talon came with 380cc injectors. I have since swapped
them out for 450cc injectors (the ones that come stock on ALL Turbo DSMs
that are M/T.) I also used an AFC for a while to lean it down, but it turned
out that the amount of air bypassing my modified mas (air meter) was
approximately 15%, almost perfect W/O an AFC, so I sold it.

I was wondering, what size injectors come with the 3000gt/DS turbo cars? I
would assume 380cc? Instead of paying premium for 550's, couldn't we just
get 6 of the STOCK DSM Turbo 450's (about $150 for all 4 used, vs $300 for
all four used/new). This would help out the person that wants to mod his car
cheaply, but also be in a safer zone with the regard to fuel supply (prevent
knock/detonation).

Also, installing the 450's along with a higher than stock fuel pressure
regulator would also help (the A/T DSM cars came stock with a 5-10psi
higher regulator than the M/T DSM cars, and this, along with the fact that
the A/T ECU THINKS it's driving 380s, causes you to run really rich w/o some
sort of fuel control or bypassed air.)

There are people running 12's (with CRAPPY 1.9+ 60' times!) with 450's on
the stock A/T ECU, and an A/T car... yet the m/t people look at you in
horror if you say that to them (they say 550's are a necessity... yet the
datalogger says the 450's with the a/t ECU are only at 90% duty)

Sorry if this post sounds confusing, as it is if you don't know a lot about
the different cars and fuel options I mentioned... hell upon re-reading it,
I'M confused too :) Thanks guys!

Vineet Singh
DSM & 3/S Manuals on CD - http://manualcd.dsm.org
Club DSM A/T - http://at.dsm.org - "Never Lift To Shift!"


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 10 19:03:34 1999
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From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: CD Changer, and Radio for sale.
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:06:20 -0500
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Hey everyone,

I have a 6 disk changer and stereo for a 92/93 3000.

This is factory equipment. The head unit is like new. (used 10k miles
before it was taken out and put in a closet) Same with the Changer.
The Radio has a tape player along with the "surround" sound that came stock
with these cars.

I'm asking 200 for the radio, and 200 for the Changer (no cables).
I also have another Radio, same as above. But not as "mint" of condition,
but it does work. Asking 150.00/obo.
I believe I have a 91 Radio and CD player. (two piece unit out of an SL)
125.00 for both.
I also have a Pioneer DEH 435 CD player.. 4x35wattt output. 125.00

Sound stream amplifier. Reference 500 (500x1, 180x2) Very clean amp.
250.00
Sound Stream Granite 180.6 amp (30x6) 175.00

Bose 901 series "6" with EQ Asking 600.00 (retail for 1500.00) Used about
6 months now.



Brad
Check out my home page: http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com ICQ# 3612682



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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 10 20:13:52 1999
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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 23:13:01 EDT
Subject: Team3S: Reverse lights stuck in on position!
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My reverse lights will not turn off, what do I do? 95 TT thanks.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 10 20:18:26 1999
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From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
To: <Stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Reverse lights stuck in on position!
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:21:10 -0500
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Pull the reverse switch fuse or bulbs.

Then check to see if the reverse switch is open or closed. Most likely the
switch is bad.


Brad
Check out my home page: http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com ICQ# 3612682

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of MitsuVR41@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 10:13 PM
To: Stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Reverse lights stuck in on position!

My reverse lights will not turn off, what do I do? 95 TT thanks.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 10 20:29:06 1999
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At 11:13 PM 8/10/99 EDT, MitsuVR41@aol.com wrote:
>My reverse lights will not turn off, what do I do?

Quick! Put it in first gear!

Seriously, pull the fuse until you can get up in there and fix the switch.

Rich/old poop
>
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 10 22:25:13 1999
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Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:25:07 -600
Subject: Re: Team3S: "Track exhaust";
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>In a message dated 8/8/99 10:55:55 AM Central Daylight Time,
>robby@freesurf.ch writes:
>I had posted this same question about a year ago and had minimal >response;
no one informed me if they tried this or not; I was seriously >contemplating
on trying this method as I have done with my Buick GN; but >someone from our
liste advised me NOT to attempt this DUMP method
>(testpipe that is bent to the driver's side). I would assume that >would
truly help in 1/4 mile times!
> So I simply decided to gut all cats and go with the Alamo DP and Borla
>exhaust.

My husband and I routinely 'dump' the exhaust off his supra for drag racing...
we end up with 3' downpipe only from the turbo. And it HELPS! When he was running
NOS we dyno'd a 30-50hp increase w/o the exhaust (http://tgn.net/~gemohler/dyno.html
for dyno results).

On my old 92 stealth rt/tt we gutted the cats (all three) and ran 3' exhaust
cat back (no mufflers). Ran this way on street and track. We did verified 12.7
second quarter miles with the following mods - K&N FIPK, DIY Bleeder Valve,
Gutted Cats & 3" Cat-back Exhaust. That's all the mods. So... opening up your
exhause HELPS. Yes I hit fuel cut in this car with this configuration...

I'm not gutting the cats on my VR-4 for a couple reasons 1) need to keep it
stock class for Autocross purposes this year, 2) it is a HUGE PAIN, 3) may be
moving to CA soon and want to pass emissions. Current mods on the VR-4 are 3"
Cat Back Exhaust (with stock cats), no mufflers, and removed air filter and
waste gates disconnected for racing purposes only, 18x9 wheels - consistant
13.4 second 1/4 mile times at 100 degree heat!

BTW, I had both of my exhausts custom made .. ppl have thought I had a Borla
from the sound, but I got the exhausts at a fraction of the cost!

Nissa
'95 VR-4
Formerly '92 RT/TT
Don't mess in the affairs of dragons.
For you are crunchy and go good with ketchup.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 11 02:01:16 1999
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Reply-To: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: "Track exhaust";
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:00:29 +0200
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>My husband and I routinely 'dump' the exhaust off his supra for drag
racing...
>we end up with 3' downpipe only from the turbo. And it HELPS! When he was
running
>NOS we dyno'd a 30-50hp increase w/o the exhaust
(http://tgn.net/~gemohler/dyno.html
>for dyno results).

Yes, on the Supras replacing the downpipe helps a lot. At the MK IV it's
even more. I just wish we'd have more space at the rear turbo to run a good
piping :(

>On my old 92 stealth rt/tt we gutted the cats (all three) and ran 3'
exhaust
>cat back (no mufflers). Ran this way on street and track. We did verified
12.7
>second quarter miles with the following mods - K&N FIPK, DIY Bleeder Valve,
>Gutted Cats & 3" Cat-back Exhaust. That's all the mods. So... opening up
your
>exhause HELPS. Yes I hit fuel cut in this car with this configuration...

Therefore, boost was more than 18psi (racing fuel, of course). Replacing teh
stock dp with a better design with a testpipe would give even better
results.

>I'm not gutting the cats on my VR-4 for a couple reasons 1) need to keep it
>stock class for Autocross purposes this year

I thought you only need the main cat for this reason ???

>2) it is a HUGE PAIN

Hehe, LOUD !

>3) may be moving to CA soon and want to pass emissions.

We currently not know what the emission tests will show with the pre-cats
gutted but the main cat working. Here in Switzerland I have to do the test
every second year and I now have a full replacement for the cats so I can
try to pass the test then (next year)

> Current mods on the VR-4 are 3"Cat Back Exhaust (with stock cats), no
mufflers,
> and removed air filter and waste gates disconnected for racing purposes
only,
>18x9 wheels - consistant 13.4 second 1/4 mile times at 100 degree heat!

Therefore you are experiencing a lot of retarded timing although it seem you
are not running into fuel cut. With the wastegate actuators disconnected the
thing will boost up to 20 and more psi and would definitely run into mid 12s
or better. But you are loosing power due to the knock. Also removing the
filter doesn't help a lot (I did this once too) if any as the MAS is still a
more restrictive part.

>BTW, I had both of my exhausts custom made .. ppl have thought I had a
Borla
>from the sound, but I got the exhausts at a fraction of the cost!

True ! The Borlas mufflers are straight and you can look directly into the
piping. They are more resonators than mufflers for sure. But the quality is
good and I did not found any shop that was able to custom made me the same
exhaust for $470 !

Roger
93'3000GT TT


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 11 09:50:22 1999
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Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:57:08 +0200
From: Matthews <matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: exhaust mods (was: "Track exhaust")
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"R.G." wrote:
>
> We currently not know what the emission tests will show with the pre-cats
> gutted but the main cat working.

Do we know how long the main cat will continue to work after the
pre-cats have been gutted or removed?


> > Current mods on the VR-4 are 3"Cat Back Exhaust (with stock cats), no
> mufflers,
> > and removed air filter and waste gates disconnected for racing purposes
> only,
> >18x9 wheels - consistant 13.4 second 1/4 mile times at 100 degree heat!
>
> Therefore you are experiencing a lot of retarded timing although it seem you
> are not running into fuel cut. With the wastegate actuators disconnected the
> thing will boost up to 20 and more psi and would definitely run into mid 12s
> or better.

Agreed. This sounds like a dangerous/expensive way to achieve mid 13s.


> >BTW, I had both of my exhausts custom made .. ppl have thought I had a
> Borla
> >from the sound, but I got the exhausts at a fraction of the cost!

While heavier than stainless, the stock piping seems pretty good (size,
construction, etc.). Why not just yank the stock muffler, adjustable
exhaust and passenger side piping and install a single, high-flow
muffler on the driver side? This would be extremely cheap, and it's not
like these cars have dual exhaust anyway. How about no muffler at all
(just bring the pipe straight back)? With the turbos and the cats,
would it really be all that loud?

Then again, such a modification would primarily be for volume and
appearance. For real high-RPM performance gains, the cats would need to
go.

-Jim

P.S.- So the question is, what would you do with that cool adjustable
exhaust switch and cable assembly? Well, Mikael and I have been
discussing a way to make that rear license plate disappear... ;-)
--
Jim Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews

*** 3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 72% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Blitz Blow-Off Valve
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, Top Speed: 168mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
1 Feb 99 Dyno Session: 406 SAE HP, 354 lb-ft torque

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 11 10:20:44 1999
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From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'Matthews'" <matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
Cc: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com, "'R.G.'" <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: RE: Team3S: exhaust mods (was: "Track exhaust")
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Jim...

I just removed my exhaust from the ATR downpipe back (test pipe and GReddy
catback) in preparation for the drags. Let me tell you, it is VERY LOUD. I
drove to work yesterday...it was not pleasant. Upon arriving at our
underground parking garage, I set off two car alarms. I'm sure that, if I
were to pass a policeman, with either deceleration or acceleration, I would
be the proud owner of a noise violation. The vibration through the flow
panels is also quite intense. I'm thinking about having a flange welded on a
tube type muffler (used to be Thrush glass packs in the "old days") and a 45
degree bend to dump the heat down and to the side (thanks Roger, for the
suggestion). I'm not sure how much that will help the vibration, since it
still won't have rubber mounted hangers supporting it, but it's worth a try.


BTW...even my GReddy stainless catback and test pipe weigh a LOT. I didn't
try to balance all six plus feet of it on a scale, but it has to be at least
fifty pounds, perhaps as much as seventy-five.

Looking forward...Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Matthews [mailto:matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de]
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 9:57 AM
To: R.G.
Cc: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: exhaust mods (was: "Track exhaust")

<snip>

While heavier than stainless, the stock piping seems pretty good (size,
construction, etc.). Why not just yank the stock muffler, adjustable
exhaust and passenger side piping and install a single, high-flow
muffler on the driver side? This would be extremely cheap, and it's not
like these cars have dual exhaust anyway. How about no muffler at all
(just bring the pipe straight back)? With the turbos and the cats,
would it really be all that loud?

Then again, such a modification would primarily be for volume and
appearance. For real high-RPM performance gains, the cats would need to
go.

-Jim

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 11 11:19:10 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: exhaust mods
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>Do we know how long the main cat will continue to work after the
>pre-cats have been gutted or removed?


Good question ! My Mitsu mechanic said, or better thinks, that it should'nt
be hurt as the temp is somewhat lower then and the material is the same as
in the precats.

>P.S.- So the question is, what would you do with that cool adjustable
>exhaust switch and cable assembly? Well, Mikael and I have been
>discussing a way to make that rear license plate disappear... ;-)

Hehe, I remember something about this :-) What about getting a two chamber
muffler with two inlet pipes (like what we have stock) and using the calble
and plate for the same purpose but with much better result ?

Later,
Roger
93'3000GT TT

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 11 11:24:06 1999
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From: ie886@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John T. Christian)
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: "Track exhaust"
Cc: ie886@po.cwru.edu, bsc4@po.cwru.edu
Reply-To: ie886@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (John T. Christian)
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Hi all,

The stock mufflers weigh 41#.

The rest of the stock exhaust weighs 42#. Yes, that is the downpipe, front
precat, connectors, bolts, main CAT, and the long pipe to the stock
muffler.

Finally made me feel guilty enough to update my Geocities web site. There
you will find pictures of my custom TRACK exhaust, Porsche brakes, brake
cooling ducts, trailer etc.

Even put in a picture of the famous Xwing......

When I put my stock exhaust back on for PA emission testing, my TT does
PASS emission test. I may still have the printout if someone needs the gas
numbers.

BTW the track exhaust is not TOO LOUD. Except on long highway trips.
I put a WAV file on my homepage so you can hear it.

The downpipe has two primaries going into a collector. I was looking for a
3" braided flexable connector to absorbe motor torque to the rest of the
track exhaust. There is no torque/movement between the turbos -- all the
small braided section does is allow for alignment of the downpipe/turbo
connection.

Until I got the custom track exhaust, I just unhooked the 42# muffler and
inserted a 3" flexpipe to the rear bumper. Worked fine, looked strange,
sounded quiter than the track exhaust. A little louder than stock.

Be of good cheer.

--
JCZoooM '93 Stealth TT Blue almost stock 12.46 @109 MPH 5/97
currently 7/99 13G's manual boost K&N track exhaust
e-mail: ie886@po.cwru.edu www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 11 11:27:11 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Fuel injectors... Sizes, musings.
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> I DID say 6 injectors

Yes, yes ... just kidding (please note the <grin> sign)

> I just need to find 3 DSM people that have 450's and another crazy
> 3/S person to go in on it with me :)

Hmm, what about Supras ? What size or type do they have ??

> I have a WALBRO in my DSM, and also installed on on a friends 11 second DSM
> (like mine). He has no problems with it, but I think it's toooooo NOISEY.
> Also, mine has developed a whining/chirping sound that sounds like a bad
> bearing...

Hmm, I just heard about the noise :-/ Maybe it's too cheap (only $115)

> What other semi cheap options do I have? (STOCK SUPRA Turbo pump is almost a
> direct drop in on the 2g DSM cars, how about the 3/S?)

"Should" be the same !

> What thickess is the fuel pump supply wire?

Yes, for sure this could be a cause too. Please note we do have a resistor in
between that will be bridged by the pump relay. Have yo ualready measured the
voltage at the battery ?

> I also have an AFC that I can use for the 3/S... that should work right?

Yep, will take care of the WOT :)

Later
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 11 13:11:52 1999
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From: "Accelerated Accessories" <meyer2@erols.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Spearco Water Injection System
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:06:46 -0400
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TT owners:
=20
=20
I have just received a shipment of Spearco Water Injection Systems part =
#980. These are the same kits that have been successfully tested by =
several of our list members (MN group). Water injection greatly =
reduces air charge temperature, and increases air density resulting in =
additional HP and torque. On our cars, this kit will help fend off =
detonation and allow the engine to run at full spark advance even during =
hard driving and when fuel octane grades are less than optimal. The =
system includes a half gallon aluminum reservoir with three mounting =
positions for a variety of mounting positions, pump, pressure switch, =
nozzle kit, and all necessary hardware to install in virtually any =
turbocharged auto. They are now available for immediate shipment while =
supplies last. The price is $155 + shipping and Payment can be made by =
Visa or Mastercard. COD also available. Call 301-393-8800 for more =
details or to place an order.
=20
Matt
www.AcceleratedAccessories.com

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BEE413.82C7DB40
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>TT owners:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I have just received a shipment of =
Spearco Water=20
Injection Systems part #980.&nbsp; These are the same kits that have =
been=20
successfully tested by several of our list members (MN =
group).&nbsp;&nbsp; Water=20
injection greatly reduces air charge temperature, and increases air =
density=20
resulting in additional HP and torque.&nbsp; On our cars, this kit will =
help=20
fend off detonation and allow the engine to run at full spark advance =
even=20
during hard driving and when fuel octane grades are less than =
optimal.&nbsp; The=20
system includes a half gallon aluminum reservoir with three mounting =
positions=20
for a variety of mounting positions, pump, pressure switch, nozzle kit, =
and all=20
necessary hardware to install in virtually any turbocharged auto.&nbsp; =
They are=20
now available for immediate shipment while supplies last.&nbsp; The =
price is=20
$155 + shipping and Payment can be made by Visa or Mastercard.&nbsp; COD =
also=20
available.&nbsp; Call 301-393-8800 for more details or to place an=20
order.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.AcceleratedAccessories.com">www.AcceleratedAccessories=
.com</A></FONT></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BEE413.82C7DB40--

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 11 14:16:11 1999
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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:19:44 -0700
From: "Todd Schmalzried" <Q11981@email.mot.com>
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Hello All,

Here's the situation, briefly. I have a '91 RT/TT Stealth 190k miles
badly blown motor. I also have a '94 3000 VR-4 120k miles good motor. I
am planning on selling the '91 soon (now). I see no reason to buy a new
motor and then give it away. I am planning on putting a new motor (Japan
Direct, ~35k miles $2200 complete) into the '94. Then taking the motor
from the '94 and putting it in the '91.

Here my question. What differences are there? I am planning on leaving
the '91 harness and computer in the car. Will a '94 motor run that way?
I know there are a few differences (like the crank angle sensor), but if
I'm keeping all the '91 electronics can I just pull off/leave
disconnected the extra sensors? Will the 5 speed bolt up to the '94
motor? Any other things you guys can think of I would appreciate.

Thanks
Todd

ps. Anyone interested in a '91 with a blown motor. :)

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 11 14:44:15 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Spearco Water Injection System
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Due to the testings (MN group) it sounds like the pump delivered with the
Spearco system is too small and this may cause the clogged nozzles. Tests
with a cheap fuel pump have been given good results so far although one does
not know what the water will do bad to a fuel pump ;-)

Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 11 14:51:21 1999
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: "Chris Winkley" <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>,
"'Matthews'" <matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
Cc: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>, "'R.G.'" <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: exhaust mods (was: "Track exhaust")
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-----Original Message-----From: Chris Winkley
<cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
>Jim...
>I just removed my exhaust from the ATR downpipe back (test pipe and
GReddy
>catback) in preparation for the drags. Let me tell you, it is VERY
LOUD. I
>drove to work yesterday...it was not pleasant. Upon arriving at our
>underground parking garage, I set off two car alarms. I'm sure that,
if I
>were to pass a policeman, with either deceleration or acceleration, I
would
>be the proud owner of a noise violation. The vibration through the
flow
>panels is also quite intense. I'm thinking about having a flange
welded on a
>tube type muffler (used to be Thrush glass packs in the "old days")
and a 45
>degree bend to dump the heat down and to the side (thanks Roger, for
the
>suggestion). I'm not sure how much that will help the vibration,
since it
>still won't have rubber mounted hangers supporting it, but it's worth
a try.


I don't know if there's enough room to do it under our cars, but in
the 60's, we used to have a switchable exhaust, via something called a
"cut out". This was a semi-permanent Y-pipe with a movable flap
inside... In standard mode (like to and from the track, and on the
way through town...), it would use the standard mufflers. But once
you pulled the lever, (mounted way under the dash), it would port the
exhaust gases left and right, through short straight pipes that came
out just in front of the rear wheels. This had the added benefit of
keeping the rear wheels warm and 'sticky', for better traction while
dragging, (on most cars)... I had to mount my pipes higher and wider,
because when they pointed at the tires, my exhausts had a nasty habit
of setting my tires on fire in the 1/4 mile... :-) Some of us (me,
and a couple of others) even had the lever simultaneously open
slideflaps in the sideskirts of my modded '57 Olds that exposed the
second set of pipes AND rotated the license plate! I used an old
handbrake setup (spring-loaded) that as soon as you released the
lever, everything went back to normal in case the gendarmes came.
There wasn't enough clearance for the cops to look under the car, and
all they saw & heard was relatively quiet emissions from gently
rumbling twin Thrushes. :-)

Forrest


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 11 16:07:25 1999
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Reply-To: "Meyer" <meyer2@erols.com>
From: "Meyer" <meyer2@erols.com>
To: <Stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Front Mount Intercooler
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:06:24 -0400
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What do you guys think? This FMIC was made possible using an APEXi skyline
Core, custom endtanks, and modified Altered Atmosphere pipes. The setup
utilizes 2" inlet pipes, and a 3" outlet. No pricing is available at this
time on a complete kit, But in the future both Altered Atmosphere and Myself
will have models of the FMIC for sale for 91-99 vr4's and Stealth TT.
www.AcceleratedAccessories.com

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 11 18:33:30 1999
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Subject: Team3S: Team 3S: Speaker replacement
From: "Ian Marks" <ianmarks@earthlink.net>
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The front speaker in the dash is fried in my Stealth and the Service manual
has absolutly no information about it. Has anyone replaced/repaired the
speakers in the dash?
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 11 20:04:05 1999
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From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Spearco Water Injection System
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:52:56 CDT
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Roger and All,

The clogged nozzle was not from the size of the pump. A small metal shaving
is what caused the nozzle to clog. Not a hard thing to do considering the
nozzle on any water injection kit is the size of a pin hole. The shaving
probably came from the aluminum tank. Proper washing of the tank should
take care of that problem.

The pump is kind of week. But in John's car, the pump had to push water 3
or 4 feet. With Matt's setup, which hasn't failed yet, the pump only has to
push the water 1 foot. The Spearco kit is still worth the price,
considering you could replace everything in the kit three times over before
you've spent the same amount of money as the ERL system.

But I'll be the first to agree, that a lot more testing needs to be done
with both systems to really know which one is better. Thats why we have
anal testers like Roger and I. :)

later guys,
Curt G,
95 R/T TT
and author of Minnesota 3/S at: http://www.mn3s.org



>From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
>To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Subject: Re: Team3S: Spearco Water Injection System
>Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 23:40:52 +0200
>
>Due to the testings (MN group) it sounds like the pump delivered with the
>Spearco system is too small and this may cause the clogged nozzles. Tests
>with a cheap fuel pump have been given good results so far although one
>does
>not know what the water will do bad to a fuel pump ;-)
>
>Regards,
>Roger
>93'3000GT TT
>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm




_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 11 20:51:00 1999
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From: "Meyer" <meyer2@erols.com>
To: "stealth" <stealth@starnet.net>, <Stealth@dragnet.com>,
"team3s" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Front Mount Intercooler
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 23:49:57 -0400
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For those who were not able to receive the picture via email I have posted
it at the top of the "photo gallery" page on our web site. Call 301 393 6600
for more details.
www.AcceleratedAccessories.com

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 12 03:14:54 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "stealth-3000" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Team 3S: Speaker replacement
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:45:54 +0200
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The speaker in the dash is only a mid-high speaker. Use a small screwdriver
and wrap it wilth a little towel to prevent any scratches. Then just lift
the speaker at the side of the grill. It is only snapped in to the plastic
of the dash.

I didn't repair it, I replaced it together with the door speakers at the
same time :)

Roger
93'3000GT TT

>The front speaker in the dash is fried in my Stealth and the Service manual
>has absolutly no information about it. Has anyone replaced/repaired the
>speakers in the dash?


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 12 03:14:59 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Spearco Water Injection System
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:57:06 +0200
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>The clogged nozzle was not from the size of the pump. A small metal
shaving
>is what caused the nozzle to clog. Not a hard thing to do considering the
>nozzle on any water injection kit is the size of a pin hole. The shaving
>probably came from the aluminum tank. Proper washing of the tank should
>take care of that problem.

Ah, ok. Good to know for everyone :)

>The pump is kind of week. But in John's car, the pump had to push water 3
>or 4 feet. With Matt's setup, which hasn't failed yet, the pump only has
to
>push the water 1 foot.

I just think that a better (stronger, higher psi) pump would provide better
water delivery as well as would atomize the water in a better way.

>But I'll be the first to agree, that a lot more testing needs to be done
>with both systems to really know which one is better. Thats why we have
>anal testers like Roger and I. :)


We know that water injection works as I already have seen knock to go after
switching the WI on. But too much water hurts the power and this is why the
amount of water should follow the torque curve. Usually water / air is
related to 1:12 but I think this is not true in the real world as it highly
depends on boost and engine. Fortunately, we do have a good torque curve on
our cars that allows nice programming (with the ERL)

I wanted to do some more test yesterday but the ERL 3D water map controller
always switched on/off (???) and I started to check all the test-points on
the circuit, pump, etc. After a long time I found out a bad connection to
the ignition 12V I connected to. Sometimes, the smallest problems are
causing the biggest headache.

I now wait for cooler temps for the dyno session as at the moment, the fan
would definitively be too small to provide enough cool air then.

If anyone is interested, I've made an Excel-Sheet for the 3D programming on
my car. It allows you to create a 3D graph with rpm, boost level and amount
of water to be injected by simply changing some parameters . Of course, this
is for the ERL specific stuff but it may give you an idea how something may
work. Let me know and I can send it privately (115kb)

More to come,
Roger
93'3000GT TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 12 03:15:02 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "team3s" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Front Mount Intercooler
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:14:29 +0200
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Matt & Frank,

The core and pipe design looks very nice and it's the same size I have from
GT Pro.

But my question is what must be removed for this setup ? The core looks that
big that I think the crash guard is removed for sure (and my WI tank) as
well as the fog (driving in EU) lights. Removing the crash bar would violate
my car insurance (like removing the airbag) and is no option. What else must
be cut from the bumper parts ?

The outtank looks good while I'd design the inlet a little bit more flow
optimized (like the outtank). I for myself I would prefer a "thicker" (two
core sandwich) FMIC that is smaller and less high. I think this would be
also a good solution as well as maybe more people would get it due to the
less work necessary.

Options ?

Roger
93'3000GT TT

>For those who were not able to receive the picture via email I have posted
>it at the top of the "photo gallery" page on our web site. Call 301 393
6600
>for more details.


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 12 05:52:49 1999
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Subject: Team3S: [Fwd: Drag Shootouts Sept 12, 18th!]
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Drag Shootouts in Midwest upcoming !! BEEE THEEERRRE!!
JT
ps forwarded separately to this list to avoid 'Bounce Syndrome'

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Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:48:51 -0500
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Import Drag Shootouts upcoming! Midwest--

September 12, 1999 Union Grove, Wisconsin Great Lakes Dragaway, NOPI
meet.
The one they had there earlier this year had a H U G E crowd, loaded
stands
of enthusiasts! Really good event. I am trying to have my 94 running
for that
but it is a race against time. Some of my friends will be there, one
with a
white 91 VR4, a few with Diamond Stars (one Buschur modified, should be
back from Dave by then) another with 20G, PMS computer, frontmount,
etc...

Sept 18 Joliet, Illinois Route 66 Dragway Import meet, should
also be a
huge one! I am trying to make both, but have an extra week to finish up

for this one.

If you haven't gone to one of these events, you are missing a load of
fun!

Jack Tertadian


--------------DAEE283FC764AED80AAA4D00--

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 12 06:22:14 1999
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Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:21:23 EDT
Subject: Re: Team3S: [Fwd: Drag Shootouts Sept 12, 18th!]
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Hello Jack & everyone!

Finally!!!! I get to meet some of us "legends" within my "MIDWEST" neck
of the woods!!!
Truly looking forward to meeting you all who will be attending these
events in Union Grove (Great Lakes Dragway) and Joliet, IL (Rt. 66 Dragway)!
I hope to have my car back from the body shop as well as have my new mods
(Turbos, injectors and Fuel pump) installed by Sept. 12th and the 18th.
We will have plenty of competition! My MKIV Supra TT friends from the
Chicagoland area will be there as well as other Import Super cars (RX-7's &
300ZX's) & modified Acura Integras (that run low 12's) & Modified Hondas. So
I cannot wait to have more fellow 3Si members showing up to support the
Stealth/3000GT class!! Hopefully the weather will be cooler than the last
NOPI event.
Jack T, you are the one who I always speak highly about to my Supra TT
friends re: your accomplishments with your VR4; so it will be great to
finally meet you!!! And also to be able to "Wow!!" the crowd with all our
3Si cars!!!!!
This would be the event to trek out to from all over the States!!! So I
hope we get a great turnout from our class!! ESPN 2 should be at the NOPI
event as well to video and broadcast this memorable event!

I apologize for this long post!

Talk to you soon,

Ahmed "AL-Crazy" - '92 VR4
GReddy Profec B boost controller, GReddy turbo timer, Apex'i sequential
b.o.v., SPI motorsport boost gauge & pillar pod, K&N filtercharger, Alamo
Downpipe, Hi-flow cat, Borla exhaust, Magnecore 8.5mm wires & new NGK spark
plugs gapped at .032, Apex'i New liquid crystal Super AFC (not installed
yet), KVR Cross drilled rotors with carbon fiber pads, Nitto Power Extreme
NT-555 (255/40/17's) tires, Enkei RP-O1 17x9 (42mm offset) racing wheels &
Eibach Pro-Kit Springs (not installed yet). Coming soon: Turbo upgrade,
550cc. injectors & HKS fuel pump (hopefully all will be installed before
Sept. 12th & 18th.)
&
1987 Grand National (for sale): way too many mods to list!
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 12 10:38:46 1999
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Hey all,
Well, I got some sad news the other day from my insurance company.
It seems they don't like me much and now that I'm married I have to be
listed on all our cars. Insurance on the Stealth more than doubled. Which
brings me to more bad news....I now have for sale:

1995 Dodge Stealth RT/TT
Dark Green, Dark Grey Leather
Factory 18" 5-spoke chrome wheels
6-speed
43k miles
$19,000

With it will go all of the mods: K&N, Blitz DSBC, Spearco 980 water
injection, Autometer Boost and A/F guages.

Pictures can be seen at www.mn3s.org <http://www.mn3s.org> follow members
link to page 2 of members.

-John Basol
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 12 11:22:10 1999
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From: "Wallis, Gavin" <WallisG@MWAA.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: more brake stuff
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:23:21 -0400
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Ok, so i guess i'll be trying to track down Porterfield's -never warp- Cryo
rotors.

Sorry i didn't ask the first time...but what about pads? I was thinking
Porterfields street pads or metal matrixs. Suggestions please...

Thanks,
Gavin
'94 Black VR-4
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 12 12:51:56 1999
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John:

Don't sell it!!! Call Progressive Insurance and get a quote from them (for just
the Stealth). Keep your other insurance with the current company if you want,
but don't let them rip you off for the Stealth.

Roger


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 12 13:13:53 1999
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From: "Paul T. Golley" <ptgolley@ro.com>
To: "Wallis, Gavin" <WallisG@MWAA.com>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: more brake stuff
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Regarding VR-4 brakes: I recently ordered a set of pads for the front
brakes on my '95 VR-4, from Tallassee Mitsubishi. I noticed that only one
of the four pads had metal "fingers" which would squeel when you began to
run out of pad thickness. Is this normal; or should all pads have wear
"squeel" members?
Regards,
ptg
PS- If only one is normally used, in what position hould it be installed?

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 12 13:42:59 1999
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To: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Cc: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 15:42:54 -600
Subject: Re: Team3S: exhaust mods (was: "Track exhaust")
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>While heavier than stainless, the stock piping seems pretty good (size,
>construction, etc.). Why not just yank the stock muffler, adjustable
>exhaust and passenger side piping and install a single, high-flow
>muffler on the driver side? This would be extremely cheap, and it's not
>like these cars have dual exhaust anyway. How about no muffler at all
>(just bring the pipe straight back)? With the turbos and the cats,
>would it really be all that loud?

My 95's exhaust is straight pipe (no mufflers) it is not too loud at all IMHO.
It has a pleasing rumble and doesn't get loud until WOT. Of course all cats
are intact.

The old Stealth WAS LOUD (no cats, straight pipe) ... still not too loud, but
definately loud.

Why not just install a single highflow ? Cause I like the look of the dual for
one... another reason.. what would I do with the extra cut out on the back of
the car??

Nissa
95 VR-4
Don't mess in the affairs of dragons.
For you are crunchy and go good with ketchup.
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 12 13:57:11 1999
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From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Insurance
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 15:56:59 -0500
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Actually, Progressive was the lowest priced one so far, and that was more
than double what I used to pay when we had it insured in just my wife's
name.

John Basol
System Management Services

-----Original Message-----
From: RJR15@daimlerchrysler.com [SMTP:RJR15@daimlerchrysler.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 2:51 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Insurance

John:

Don't sell it!!! Call Progressive Insurance and get a quote from
them (for just
the Stealth). Keep your other insurance with the current company if
you want,
but don't let them rip you off for the Stealth.

Roger


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 12 14:52:48 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "Team3S List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Boost / Knock (datalogs)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 23:51:44 +0200
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I was able to made some runs tonight (in light rain, without WI) and
recorded about 6-7 runs. After analysing the data this is what I found :

15psi :
All runs showed slight knock around 5700 and up - no retard. Only up to 5
sum is shown in 2nd and up to 15 then in 3rd gear (4th would be too fast).

15.5psi :
Knock was always higher and peaked in double the amount in 2nd and over 25
in 3rd. Here knock started at 5500, peaked at 5700 and stayed at this level
after 6400. On one run with knock over 25 the timing got retarded some
degrees and this is maybe the cause knock did not increase anymore.

Some other findings :
- The intake temperature became lower as faster the car runned (there must
comming in some cold air. The temp was around 77 compared to high 90 on the
first run. I saw no difference in the knock amount due to the intake
temperature !
- Timing is not retarded until knock amount becomes higher than 20.
- On the dyno session at the beginning of this year we saw the power
decreasing with a little more boost after 15psi. The log now absolutely
proves this as at 15.5psi the timing is retarded under full load (from 5500
on) and therefore power is lost.
- O2 sensor showed figures around 0.92V at 15psi and came down to 0.86V at
15.5psi
- Injectors have always been at 100% IDC

Now open for discussion :
- temperatures of 97°F in the MAS showed the SAME results as 77°F - This may
lead me to the conclusion that a hood scoop to the filter will not help
anything in cooling down ! I was thinking the last hours about this and my
only explanation is that the discharge temperatures of the turbos must be
way higher so the cooler MAS temp does not help anything.

- 15psi of boost IS max. for the stock fuel system. Short runs on the track
with 15psi of boost will not hurt the engine at all. But going higher to
15.5psi will cause knock and leads to a retarded timing that finally loses
power at the top. This occurs in 3rd and will occur in 2nd if boost goes up
to 16psi. This was measured with 93 octane pump gas and for sure with high
octane race gas the problem may be lowered.

Now, it's time to tune in the WI to get rid of the knock. I made two tries
and found out that 60% at 15.5psi does not help. I will try to increase
water pressure first as I'm pretty sure we have to give a lot water to cool
the degraded temps of the turbos down.

Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 12 17:13:05 1999
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com, "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
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GEICO does a pretty good job on rates as well. How are you classifying your driving of the vehicles? Are you claiming a 50/50 on the Stealth. If your wife drives it the most, have them do a different split, like 80% wife / 20% you or go even higher to 90 / 10. Unless your record is really bad, it shouldn't have doubled just because you got married.
--

On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 15:56:59 Basol, John wrote:
>Actually, Progressive was the lowest priced one so far, and that was more
>than double what I used to pay when we had it insured in just my wife's
>name.
>
>John Basol
>System Management Services
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RJR15@daimlerchrysler.com [SMTP:RJR15@daimlerchrysler.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 2:51 PM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Team3S: Insurance
>
> John:
>
> Don't sell it!!! Call Progressive Insurance and get a quote from
>them (for just
> the Stealth). Keep your other insurance with the current company if
>you want,
> but don't let them rip you off for the Stealth.
>
> Roger
>
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 12 17:23:45 1999
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Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 20:24:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Team3S: Speaker replacement
From: "Ian Marks" <ianmarks@earthlink.net>
To: "stealth-3000" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
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Thanks to all for the advice. At least there's one thing that's easy to work
on on these cars eh?

>
> On my VR4 the speaker just popped right out. They really were not held in
> place by anything. Take a small screw driver and they should come right
> out, grill and all.

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ian Marks <ianmarks@earthlink.net>
> To: stealth-3000 <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 8:34 PM
> Subject: Team3S: Team 3S: Speaker replacement
>
>
>>
>> The front speaker in the dash is fried in my Stealth and the Service
> manual
>> has absolutly no information about it. Has anyone replaced/repaired the
>> speakers in the dash?
>> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>>
>
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 12 17:38:47 1999
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From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
To: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>, "Team3S List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <006d01bee50c$ece12960$435718c3@roger>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Boost / Knock (datalogs)
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:36:51 -0700
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> I was able to made some runs tonight (in light rain, without WI) and
> recorded about 6-7 runs. After analysing the data this is what I found :
>
> - 15psi of boost IS max. for the stock fuel system. Short runs on the track
> with 15psi of boost will not hurt the engine at all. But going higher to
> 15.5psi will cause knock and leads to a retarded timing that finally loses
> power at the top.
==================================================

If you have access to racing gas [ 100+ octane ] it would be interesting to
see what happens to the knocking. Lots of 1/4 mi guys load up with hi
octane and feel safe running 18 plus pounds of boost.

Jim Berry

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 12 18:29:56 1999
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From: Joshua <joshua@unconundrum.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Question about radiator fluid.
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:29:30 -0400
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I had my radiator replaced and the guy put straight radiator fluid in it
without water. I noticed the cars seems to run hotter now, does this affect
the engine running hotter? Should I drain it and put more water in it?
Thanks for any advice.

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 12 19:14:10 1999
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Message-ID: <001001bee531$6ce72b40$0e9cf5ce@kevin>
From: "Kevin" <Kevin@pacarsearch.com>
To: "Joshua" <joshua@unconundrum.com>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <7057B516B5F8D11198320080296571A2234BBF@EXCHANGE>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Question about radiator fluid.
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:13:04 -0400
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Your best cooling comes from a mixture of water and antifreeze. Follow the
manufacturer's suggestions. But, A friend of mine swears by straight
antifreeze. His father's truck (1979 Ford) was given to him when he turned
16, then when he pulled the motor to put in a V-8 we looked at the coolant
passages. SPOTLESS.... like brand new and the truck has 160,000 miles on
it. If it is not overheating, but just running a little hotter I would not
worry about it. If you plan on being in traffic alot or really abusing the
car I would put some water in it.

Kevin Schappell
http://www.pacarsearch.com/motorhead/mitsu2.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: Joshua <joshua@unconundrum.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 9:29 PM
Subject: Team3S: Question about radiator fluid.


> I had my radiator replaced and the guy put straight radiator fluid in it
> without water. I noticed the cars seems to run hotter now, does this
affect
> the engine running hotter? Should I drain it and put more water in it?
> Thanks for any advice.
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 12 19:17:40 1999
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From: "Kevin" <Kevin@pacarsearch.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: What does an old timing belt look like?
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:16:57 -0400
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I purchased my car at 74,000 miles on the odometer from a dealer and do =
not know if the 60,000 miles service was done. The plugs and wires were =
replaced. (mitsu plug wires are date coded 1998). I took the inspection =
cover off and looked at the belt. No cracks, looks like a fresh belt, =
and has a slight glossy appearance( more like satin ). Edges are not =
frayed or damaged. So you guys who have changed your belts, what did =
the old ones look like.

Thanks,
Kevin Schappell
http://www.pacarsearch.com/motorhead/mitsu2.htm

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I purchased my car at 74,000 miles on =
the odometer=20
from a dealer and do not know if the 60,000 miles service was =
done.&nbsp; The=20
plugs and wires were replaced. (mitsu plug wires are date coded =
1998).&nbsp; I=20
took the inspection cover off and looked at the belt.&nbsp; No cracks, =
looks=20
like a fresh belt, and has a slight glossy appearance( more like satin =
).&nbsp;=20
Edges are not frayed or damaged.&nbsp; So you guys who have changed your =
belts,=20
what did the old ones look like.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Kevin Schappell</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>http://www.pacarsearch.com/motorhead/mitsu2.htm</FONT></DIV></BO=
DY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BEE510.643CDBA0--

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 12 19:41:31 1999
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From: "Kevin" <Kevin@pacarsearch.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Sorry about the HTML
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:40:48 -0400
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Computer crashed yesterday and I had to re-install everything!!! Forgot to
change the settings.

Kevin

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 12 20:35:54 1999
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From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: more brake stuff
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:39:32 -0500
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If I remember correctly, two of the pads should have the squeal indicators.

The correct mounting is on the inside pad.


Brad
Check out my home page: http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com ICQ# 3612682

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Paul T. Golley
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 3:11 PM
To: Wallis, Gavin; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: more brake stuff

Regarding VR-4 brakes: I recently ordered a set of pads for the front
brakes on my '95 VR-4, from Tallassee Mitsubishi. I noticed that only one
of the four pads had metal "fingers" which would squeel when you began to
run out of pad thickness. Is this normal; or should all pads have wear
"squeel" members?
Regards,
ptg
PS- If only one is normally used, in what position hould it be installed?

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 12 21:15:25 1999
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Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 23:16:42 -0500
To: stealth@starnet.net, stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Driver's School at Blackhawk Farms
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To folks in the Chicago/Milwaukee/Mnpls area:

Badger BMW club is holding a two-day driver's school/open track event at
Blackhawk Farms on Aug. 21-22. We can go, if we promise not to embarass
them too much.

Blackhawk Farms is 90 minutes north of Chicago, straight up the interstate
to Rockford.

They tell me that the novice drivers school group is closing up fast, so if
you want to go, call Larry Boyer at 414/266-9062 ASAP. They are up to 41
students already.

If you get in, e-mail me and I'll tell you what you need to do to the
brakes to get your car ready (not much -- for your first event, it's a
piece of cake).

For experienced drivers, the open track stuff starts Saturday afternoon and
runs all day Sunday.

You'll want to get in good with Badger BMW, because they run at RoadAmerica
in October. RA has two one-mile straights...

Hope to see some of you at Blackhawk Farms.
I'll be in the black 94 VR4 with the big white brake scoops.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 02:40:38 1999
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Reply-To: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Honcking goose .. unbelieveable !
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:40:09 +0200
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Some of you know that I never ever experienced this sound on my EU 3000GT
TT.

Well, after putting the stuff back together with the water injection
installed I'm now getting the same stupid sound.

Therefore, it must have something to do with the way the stuff is installed
!! Maybe just pushing the BPV 2mm in would help or whatever. The BPV is not
getting weaker as it was out of the car for a long time (HKS BOV) and I
installed for the government stuff.

Roger
93'3000GT TT


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 03:30:06 1999
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?= <vr4@bahnhof.se>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Torque
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:27:10 +0200
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Hi

Today I read in a swedish paper about all WRC (rally) cars, they have listed how many HP and how much torque the different cars have.

All cars have 295-300 hp (under 2 liters) but they all have torque in the range 510-550 NM !!!!

Can someone please explain how it's possible to get so much torque out of a car with only 2 liters and 300hp.

I'm just thinking, if we had the same hp/torque relation the "bad" 3000gt's should have 550 hp and something like 935 NM !!! (that will for sure kill the Getrag)

Please explain!

/Mikael Akesson http://www.3000gt.nu



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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 05:38:17 1999
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From: "Johnson, Scott (CAP, ITS, CA)" <Scott.Johnson@gects.ge.com>
To: "'TEAM3S'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Question about Electronically Controlled Suspension (ECS)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 08:36:49 -0400
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Hi guys,

I have a couple of questions about the ECS function.

My ECS indicator is flashing "Sport", and has since I recently purchased the
car. Pressing the ECS button has no discernable effect, and given that the
indicator is flashing in that mode, I assume that there is a problem.
This means to me that the car is "stuck" in the Sport mode of the suspension
tuning.

Am I correct in assuming this?

As well, what exactly happens mechanically between the two suspension modes.
The owner's manual is very general (e.g. the suspension characteristics will
be set to "HARD"...).

I'm also wondering, if there is a problem (and their must be) has anyone had
to fix this, and is it costly???

Thanks
Scott
'93 R/T TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 05:51:26 1999
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Reply-To: "Meyer" <meyer2@erols.com>
From: "Meyer" <meyer2@erols.com>
To: "team3s" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Need pair of 95+ "projector style" Headlights
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 08:50:26 -0400
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I am looking for a pair of projector style headlights in any color. They
must be off of a 95 or later 3kgt or stealth w/ lexan plastic covers.
301-393-8800 or meyer2@erols.com


Matt Meyer
www.AcceleratedAccessories.com

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 06:15:32 1999
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Reply-To: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "Johnson, Scott (CAP, ITS, CA)" <Scott.Johnson@gects.ge.com>,
"'TEAM3S'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Question about Electronically Controlled Suspension (ECS)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:14:02 +0200
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>This means to me that the car is "stuck" in the Sport mode of the
suspension
>tuning. Am I correct in assuming this?

Yes, exactly !

>As well, what exactly happens mechanically between the two suspension
modes.
>The owner's manual is very general (e.g. the suspension characteristics
will
>be set to "HARD"...).

I don't know what exactly (mechanical view) is going on in the struts but
the dampeners have several positions (I guess three positions : hard,
medium, soft) If set to Tour the ECS sets the dampeners to soft and adjusts
them with some delay if necessary automatically. With this a smooth ride
with a good reaction in long fast turns is guaranteed. Works pretty good. On
the circle track I only found the Sport mode useful as the Tour mode
increased the understeering tendency a lot.

>I'm also wondering, if there is a problem (and their must be) has anyone
had
>to fix this, and is it costly???


Luckily the most that already had this problem found a broken connector or
cable. Go to http://user.icx.net/~adams/strut_wiring_shield_mod.htm and have
a look. It's also good to check the rear ones if the fronts are done.

Regards
Roger
93'3000GT TT



>
>Thanks
>Scott
>'93 R/T TT
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 06:26:35 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Question about Electronically Controlled Suspension
(ECS)
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Scott:

I had the same problem in my '91 Stealth, and from what I hear, it is a common
one. The flashing "sport" light on the dash means that there IS a problem with
the ECS system. It is defaulting to the stiffer "sport" setting, instead of
"tour", and won't let you change the mode with the dash button.

With a shop manual, you can read about how to diagnose which ECS sensor is
causing the problem. Can any list members help me out here? If not, I could
scan the page from my manual and e-mail it to you. Mine was a sensor on the
front strut tower, which had faulty wiring - they just wear out due to the
suspension travel. I had the dealer replace the part (~ $165 from the dealer,
an hour of labor included) but I have heard that the wiring may be repaired
without buying a new part.

If one of the front strut sensors turns out to be your problem, it is very easy
to do the repair yourself. These parts are accessed under the hood, just
beneath the strut tower covers in the hood. There is a circular black rubber
part which is held in with 3(?) bolts. Undo the bolts and you will see where
the wiring is plugged in. Check the wiring for signs of wear.

If nobody else has more detailed info handy, I can provide it when I get my shop
manual from home.

Roger Roskam
'91 Stealth RT/TT


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 07:12:24 1999
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From: Mike Baldwin <mbaldwin@eecs.tufts.edu>
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Subject: Team3S: Gas & Oil Level
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Hi, these are potentially technical (?) questions so I hope its OK
for me to post them here:

1) Does the brand (Mobil, Shell) of gas one uses matter?

I am curious because I heard different companies use different additives
in their gas. What are these additives, what do they do, and do they
matter significantly?

I have been using Shell since I got my car 2 months ago and I was using it
in my Eclipse GS-T for the past few months (got a Shell gas card & my gas
there is discounted).

Prior to that I used to use Mobil in my Eclipse. No difference that I
noticed.

I am in the Boston area, BTW.

2) How many qts of oil go in a 2G VR4? My mechanic put 5 qts of oil in
before checking the dipstick and saying it was OK. I used Mobil 1 10w-40
and a Mobil 1 filter.

For some reason the oil runs all along my dipstick when I check the oil.
Im thinking maybe there is some oil in the shaft that the dipstick goes
down?

I have been noticing a gas smell sometimes while driving, but I'm not sure
if I'm just sucking in fumes from the car in front of me or if there is a
problem.

Thanks in advance.

mb '97 VR4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 07:14:00 1999
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Subject: Team3S: Can't shift into third?
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I'm having problems shifting into third gear on occassion. It just won't
go in & it has caused me to accidently shift into first a few times
(oops). Usually if I double clutch it will go in, but I was wondering if
this is indicative of a problem?

The car is a 97 VR4 with ~17k miles.

Thanks.



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 07:25:54 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Can't shift into third?
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:25:23 +0200
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Don't hope the synchros are gone with just 17k !!

Try to get the shifter cable adjusted. May help to solve your problems.

Roger Gerl
93'3000GT TT

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Baldwin <mbaldwin@eecs.tufts.edu>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Cc: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
<stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com>
Date: Freitag, 13. August 1999 16:11
Subject: Team3S: Can't shift into third?


>I'm having problems shifting into third gear on occassion. It just won't
>go in & it has caused me to accidently shift into first a few times
>(oops). Usually if I double clutch it will go in, but I was wondering if
>this is indicative of a problem?
>
>The car is a 97 VR4 with ~17k miles.
>
>Thanks.
>
>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 07:31:05 1999
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From: "Wendlandt, Mark (MN51)" <MWendlan@cfsmo.honeywell.com>
To: Team3S List <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: '94+ brakes on a pre '94
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:30:37 -0500
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I have been thinking about upgrading my brakes to '94+ brakes but always
thought that it would not work with my '91RT/TT 17" wheels.

I saw a picture of a '94 RT/TT and noticed that the wheels looked the same
as mine.

I called the dealer and they said the the part number is the same for the
'91 wheel as the '94.

Therefore, is it possible to upgrade my brakes without buying new wheels?

The caliper are the same size, but I'm assuming that the hangers are
different to allow for the larger rotors.

I'm sure that I've heard/read somewhere that the breaks won't work unless
you change the wheels, but now I'm not sure since the wheels are the same.

Any info would be appreciated,

Mark
'91RT/TT

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mark Wendlandt Honeywell CASSPO-Inertial Support
Phone: 612-957-3736 Pager: 612-601-0881
Email: Mark.Wendlandt@cfsmo.honeywell.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 08:51:10 1999
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: "Mike Baldwin" <mbaldwin@eecs.tufts.edu>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Gas & Oil Level
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 08:49:34 -0700
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-----Original Message-----From: Mike Baldwin <mbaldwin@eecs.tufts.edu>
>1) Does the brand (Mobil, Shell) of gas one uses matter?
>I am curious because I heard different companies use different
additives
>in their gas. What are these additives, what do they do, and do they
>matter significantly?
>I have been using Shell since I got my car 2 months ago and I was
using it
>in my Eclipse GS-T for the past few months (got a Shell gas card & my
gas
>there is discounted).

The brand of gas matters less than the gas station at which you buy
it! Go to several different Shell stations, and note how well your
car runs... Stations are famous for cutting corners by mixing good
gas with mediocre..., adding water to the tanks, etc, etc... Every
once in a while, go to a station that sells another brand of gas--
often you can feel the difference in performance.

It appears that additives are soon to be a moot point-- here in
California, they have finally been banned, because it's been
determined that the stuff kills people! Other states will follow
quickly...


>2) How many qts of oil go in a 2G VR4? My mechanic put 5 qts of oil
in
>before checking the dipstick and saying it was OK. I used Mobil 1
10w-40
>and a Mobil 1 filter.

5.2 qts. Many guys on the list have recommended Mobil-1 with the
stock filter; the Mobil-1 filter isn't so hot...


>For some reason the oil runs all along my dipstick when I check the
oil.
>Im thinking maybe there is some oil in the shaft that the dipstick
goes
>down?

After hard driving, there will be some oil in the dipstick shaft...
That's why mechanics always wipe off the stick first, then insert it
back to get a true reading. It shouldn't be way up on the dipstick,
though... that would indicate foaming and that a problem may exist...


>I have been noticing a gas smell sometimes while driving, but I'm not
sure
>if I'm just sucking in fumes from the car in front of me or if there
is a
>problem.

In a recent study, it was determined that the pollution levels inside
any car were up to 10 times worse than outside the car. Unless you're
travelling at high speed, or it's cold, leave the windows open some
(the survey suggested always leaving them open a bit...).

Forrest


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 09:31:38 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Can't shift into third?
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Someone posted awhile back on the shifter linkage control arm (under the blow off valve)
At this location the roll pin occasionally becomes unadjusted...it sticks out too far
and you consequently cannot get into third gear in particular. Realign the parts and
secure the roll pin.

Best

Darc

R.G. wrote:

> Don't hope the synchros are gone with just 17k !!
>
> Try to get the shifter cable adjusted. May help to solve your problems.
>
> Roger Gerl
> 93'3000GT TT
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Baldwin <mbaldwin@eecs.tufts.edu>
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
> Cc: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
> <stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com>
> Date: Freitag, 13. August 1999 16:11
> Subject: Team3S: Can't shift into third?
>
> >I'm having problems shifting into third gear on occassion. It just won't
> >go in & it has caused me to accidently shift into first a few times
> >(oops). Usually if I double clutch it will go in, but I was wondering if
> >this is indicative of a problem?
> >
> >The car is a 97 VR4 with ~17k miles.
> >
> >Thanks.
> >
> >
> >
> >For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 09:58:29 1999
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Oops..sent this Roger only instead of the group.

Darc

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Message-ID: <37B447F1.AB81997@bc.sympatico.ca>
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:29:37 -0700
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
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Organization: West Coast Ethnographics
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CC: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Can't shift into third?
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Someone posted awhile back on the shifter linkage control arm (under the blow off valve)
At this location the roll pin occasionally becomes unadjusted...it sticks out too far
and you consequently cannot get into third gear in particular. Realign the parts and
secure the roll pin.

Best

Darc

R.G. wrote:

> Don't hope the synchros are gone with just 17k !!
>
> Try to get the shifter cable adjusted. May help to solve your problems.
>
> Roger Gerl
> 93'3000GT TT
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Baldwin <mbaldwin@eecs.tufts.edu>
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
> Cc: stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com
> <stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com>
> Date: Freitag, 13. August 1999 16:11
> Subject: Team3S: Can't shift into third?
>
> >I'm having problems shifting into third gear on occassion. It just won't
> >go in & it has caused me to accidently shift into first a few times
> >(oops). Usually if I double clutch it will go in, but I was wondering if
> >this is indicative of a problem?
> >
> >The car is a 97 VR4 with ~17k miles.
> >
> >Thanks.
> >
> >
> >
> >For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm




--------------96759A7401F07E1BD6AD0E17--

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 11:38:13 1999
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From: "Carlos Q" <pir8ska@shadow.net>
To: "Team3s list" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: What are some opinions on the front mount IC?
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:44:44 -0400
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I've got a first gen, and it seems to me that our bumper's opening is just
too small to get enough air to the accelerated accessories IC (just from
what I saw of it, please don't think I am trying to bash it, I think it's
beautiful and I am saving for one right now...). what are some of your
opinions? do you think that running both turbos through a front mount will
cool intake temps more than each through an individual side mount?

Just trying to start some discussion...
Carlos

(btw, does anyone know how to trick the active aero into thinking that its
front dam is working? mine isnt there anymore =) )

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 11:41:37 1999
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From: "Carlos Q" <pir8ska@shadow.net>
To: "Team3s list" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Gas & Oil Level
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:48:10 -0400
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So then, what brand of gas do you all recommend to use? I religiously use
chevron, and on occasion amoco...


Carlos

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Forrest <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: Mike Baldwin <mbaldwin@eecs.tufts.edu>; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Friday, August 13, 1999 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Gas & Oil Level


>-----Original Message-----From: Mike Baldwin <mbaldwin@eecs.tufts.edu>
>>1) Does the brand (Mobil, Shell) of gas one uses matter?
>>I am curious because I heard different companies use different
>additives
>>in their gas. What are these additives, what do they do, and do they
>>matter significantly?
>>I have been using Shell since I got my car 2 months ago and I was
>using it
>>in my Eclipse GS-T for the past few months (got a Shell gas card & my
>gas
>>there is discounted).
>
>The brand of gas matters less than the gas station at which you buy
>it! Go to several different Shell stations, and note how well your
>car runs... Stations are famous for cutting corners by mixing good
>gas with mediocre..., adding water to the tanks, etc, etc... Every
>once in a while, go to a station that sells another brand of gas--
>often you can feel the difference in performance.
>
>It appears that additives are soon to be a moot point-- here in
>California, they have finally been banned, because it's been
>determined that the stuff kills people! Other states will follow
>quickly...
>
>
>>2) How many qts of oil go in a 2G VR4? My mechanic put 5 qts of oil
>in
>>before checking the dipstick and saying it was OK. I used Mobil 1
>10w-40
>>and a Mobil 1 filter.
>
>5.2 qts. Many guys on the list have recommended Mobil-1 with the
>stock filter; the Mobil-1 filter isn't so hot...
>
>
>>For some reason the oil runs all along my dipstick when I check the
>oil.
>>Im thinking maybe there is some oil in the shaft that the dipstick
>goes
>>down?
>
>After hard driving, there will be some oil in the dipstick shaft...
>That's why mechanics always wipe off the stick first, then insert it
>back to get a true reading. It shouldn't be way up on the dipstick,
>though... that would indicate foaming and that a problem may exist...
>
>
>>I have been noticing a gas smell sometimes while driving, but I'm not
>sure
>>if I'm just sucking in fumes from the car in front of me or if there
>is a
>>problem.
>
>In a recent study, it was determined that the pollution levels inside
>any car were up to 10 times worse than outside the car. Unless you're
>travelling at high speed, or it's cold, leave the windows open some
>(the survey suggested always leaving them open a bit...).
>
>Forrest
>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 11:45:48 1999
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From: "Carlos Q" <pir8ska@shadow.net>
To: "Team3s list" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Gas & Oil Level
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So then, what brand of gas do you all recommend to use? I religiously use
chevron, and on occasion amoco...


Carlos

>>The brand of gas matters less than the gas station at which you buy
>>it! Go to several different Shell stations, and note how well your
>>car runs... Stations are famous for cutting corners by mixing good
>>gas with mediocre..., adding water to the tanks, etc, etc... Every
>>once in a while, go to a station that sells another brand of gas--
>>often you can feel the difference in performance.


sorry about quoting the whole post ^_^

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 12:09:28 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Gas & Oil Level
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Thanks for the info, Bob. I have a few questions/comments:

> often you can feel the difference in performance.

I'll check out the Mobil gas station next fill-up. Unfortunately, I've
never driven another VR4 so not sure how performance measures up:)

> determined that the stuff kills people! Other states will follow

How so?? The fumes?

> stock filter; the Mobil-1 filter isn't so hot...

Dude, I spent $10 on the Mobil 1 filter! And I know price is not always
indicative of quality, but I also read this individuals analysis on
various filters:

http://minimopar.simplenet.com/oilfilterstudy.html

Actually, it looks like the site has been taken down, but he basically
bought all these filters, cut them open and did an analysis on them. As
far as OEM filters go, they were just relabled FRAM filters or something.

> back to get a true reading. It shouldn't be way up on the dipstick,
> though... that would indicate foaming and that a problem may exist...

How can I tell if the engine oil is foaming? Any noises/smells I should be
looking out for? There is not a significant amount of oil up on the stick,
just enough to make it confusing to look at.

Anyways, thanks for the advice.

Mike

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Mike Baldwin wrote:

> Hi, these are potentially technical (?) questions so I hope its OK
> for me to post them here:
>
> 1) Does the brand (Mobil, Shell) of gas one uses matter?
>
> I am curious because I heard different companies use different additives
> in their gas. What are these additives, what do they do, and do they
> matter significantly?

The gas is essentially all the same (here in Western Canada there are two refineries
for all of the Companies....the additives (about 5c per fill-up) are what make any
difference (Chevron for example) and in most cases there are no technical differences
between 93 at one pump and 93 at another. Impurities in the tanks, leached ground water
in the tanks, etc, may account for some problems, along with unsanctioned diluting
practises some stations are alleged to employ. If you find a good brand and
station...stick with it. If you're havbing what appear to be octane problems, try
another brand/station.

The rest of the questions were answered previously, although there might be cause for
concern with your gas smell. If it persists on a daily basis (at least once a day you
get it) then start to look for the source of the problem...leaking injectors, etc. Run a
good grade of injector cleaner through at your next fill up for starters. By good, I
mean something that costs more than $2.

snip

Best

Darc

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 13:47:07 1999
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>It appears that additives are soon to be a moot point-- here in California, they have finally been banned, because it's been determined that the stuff kills people! Other states will follow quickly...

For reference here, that's only MTBE that is currently under serious consideration for removal - it's an additive to help control pollution, unlike other additives such as Techron, that help keep the fuel system cleaner. The oil companies are playing this thing up to get higher prices - which seems to be working quite nicely.


>>2) How many qts of oil go in a 2G VR4? My mechanic put 5 qts of oil in before checking the dipstick and saying it was OK. I used Mobil 1 10w-40 and a Mobil 1 filter 5.2 qts. Many guys on the list have recommended Mobil-1 with the stock filter; the Mobil-1 filter isn't so hot...

A little overfill here. Not sure enough to cause extra foaming, but in my mechanical classes, I was always told it was okay to go down a quart, then add, BUT NEVER overfill - this is where foaming / churning the oil comes into play. From all accounts I've seen the Mobil 1 is close to the best in OEM style filters. To go any better, you'll need to move up to a racing filter, but that would require adding an external bypass filter assembly, but where would it go in that crowded compartment.

'92 Black VR-4


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 14:06:53 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Gas & Oil Level
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-----Original Message-----From: Mike Baldwin <mbaldwin@eecs.tufts.edu>
>I'll check out the Mobil gas station next fill-up. Unfortunately,
I've
>never driven another VR4 so not sure how performance measures up:)

Compare on YOUR car! You'd be numb not to notice if your car feels
'good' when you're driving with one gas and 'not so good' right after
a fill-up somewhere else... Mine sputters a bit when it's cold with
the local Shell product... Your mileage may vary... :-)


>> determined that the stuff kills people! Other states will follow
>
>How so?? The fumes?

Any leaks leech into the ground and contaminate the water supply. But
this MBTE stuff in the water supply is a KNOWN carcinogen, while plain
old gas is not! The other additives are mainly beneficial.


>Dude, I spent $10 on the Mobil 1 filter! And I know price is not
always
>indicative of quality, but I also read this individuals analysis on
>various filters:
>
>http://minimopar.simplenet.com/oilfilterstudy.html
>
>Actually, it looks like the site has been taken down, but he
basically
>bought all these filters, cut them open and did an analysis on them.
As
>far as OEM filters go, they were just relabled FRAM filters or
something.

I can't remember why, but there's 'something' missing on the Mobil 1
filter that's there on the stock filter (which is about the same
price, BTW). I was hoping someone on the list with a better memory
would pipe up with chapter and verse...


>How can I tell if the engine oil is foaming? Any noises/smells I
should be
>looking out for? There is not a significant amount of oil up on the
stick,
>just enough to make it confusing to look at.

You can tell if the stick is wet all the way up to the top with normal
driving, usually from overfilling, but occasionally from gas or water
leaking into the oil. It doesn't sound like your case... What you've
got is dead normal. That's why they have you stop the engine before
checking the oil, because it does work its way up the dipstick...

F



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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 14:18:15 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: What are some opinions on the front mount IC?
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>I've got a first gen, and it seems to me that our bumper's opening is just
>too small to get enough air to the accelerated accessories IC (just from
>what I saw of it, please don't think I am trying to bash it, I think it's
>beautiful and I am saving for one right now...). what are some of your
>opinions? do you think that running both turbos through a front mount will
>cool intake temps more than each through an individual side mount?


My opinion is that the intercooler piping would become more efficient. We
know that each bend and angle in the IC piping results in a pressure loss.
Have a look at a picture in the manual and no more explanation is necessary
... the design is bad on our cars. The FMIC will help although getting the
pipes into the IC also makes some serious bends necessary :-( The positive
aspect is that the core is much bigger than both stock ones and it's not
necessary that the whole core faces the front. It is more important that the
IC will be mounted close to the radiator so it will benefit from the ducting
inside the bumper. Unfortunately a part will be covered by the crash bar but
Matt & Frank are working on this.

To prove the design is working properly, temp and pressure before and after
the IC must be measured. This will give us the efficiency of the thing.
Anither thing to think about is if there is still enough cold air available
for the radiator at the back. As far as I remember someone with a FMIC
already saw increased water temp and is now upgrading the radiator as well.
This would not be a solution for me.

Also note that getting an aluminum FMIC means loosing some good weight. At
least mine from GT PRO (too big for my car) weights as much as one of the
factory IC does.

>(btw, does anyone know how to trick the active aero into thinking that its
>front dam is working? mine isnt there anymore =) )

Maybe adding a power resistor may help (simulate the motor)

Regards
Roger
93'3000GT TT


>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 14:21:29 1999
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com, "Kevin" <Kevin@pacarsearch.com>
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Can't go by HOW IT LOOKS.

If you purchased the car from a Mitsu place, have them slide up to their computers and pull a run on the car. If service was done by a Mitsu mechanic, it SHOULD be there. If not a Mitsu dealer, call the BONEHEADS at Mitsu Non-Customer Service (ita a 1-800 #) and they can look it up, if you talk REALLY NICE to them. You see,they get alot of irrate customers calling about the crappy service they've been given by a LOUSY (most of them anyway) dealer network.
--

On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:16:57 Kevin wrote:
>I purchased my car at 74,000 miles on the odometer from a dealer and do not know if the 60,000 miles service was done. The plugs and wires were replaced. (mitsu plug wires are date coded 1998). I took the inspection cover off and looked at the belt. No cracks, looks like a fresh belt, and has a slight glossy appearance( more like satin ). Edges are not frayed or damaged. So you guys who have changed your belts, what did the old ones look like.
>
>Thanks,
>Kevin Schappell
>http://www.pacarsearch.com/motorhead/mitsu2.htm
>


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 14:35:16 1999
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Reply-To: "Jeffrey Young" <jefyoung@ix.netcom.com>
From: "Jeffrey Young" <jefyoung@ix.netcom.com>
To: "Stealth - Team 3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: New Modification :)
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:36:24 -0600
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Here is a picture of my latest 'Boy Racer' modification.....I think it adds
'up to' 75 horsepower and will cut 'up to' 3 seconds off your quarter mile
time. Your results may vary.

Click here-> http://www.omega-sw.com/stealth/frj01.jpg

Happy Friday the 13th to all.


Jeffrey
92 RT/Turbo
www.omega-sw.com/stealth



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 16:18:13 1999
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From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
To: "Wendlandt, Mark (MN51)" <MWendlan@cfsmo.honeywell.com>,
"Team3S List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <3FED573F5E70D111A11900805F15163F0187C952@mn51mail2.cfsmo.honeywell.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: '94+ brakes on a pre '94
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:16:15 -0700
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I don't have a definitive answer for you but I can provide some information.
I have a 93 stealth TT that had stock 17" wheels --- the smallest inside diameter is
about 14 1/2". I replaced the stock wheels with 94 chrome VR4 17" wheels and
measured the inside diameter at 15 1/2" the extra inch must be what allows
the larger brakes.The Stealth uses the same rims from 91 to 96 [ see link
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Shop/1044/wheels.html ]. Maybe the Stealth
didn't use the upgraded brakes and the VR4 did??????????
I plan to upgrade my brakes but I now have the larger inside diameter 17"
wheels.

Jim berry





> I have been thinking about upgrading my brakes to '94+ brakes but always
> thought that it would not work with my '91RT/TT 17" wheels.
>
> I saw a picture of a '94 RT/TT and noticed that the wheels looked the same
> as mine.
>
> I called the dealer and they said the the part number is the same for the
> '91 wheel as the '94.
>
> Therefore, is it possible to upgrade my brakes without buying new wheels?
>
> The caliper are the same size, but I'm assuming that the hangers are
> different to allow for the larger rotors.
>
> I'm sure that I've heard/read somewhere that the breaks won't work unless
> you change the wheels, but now I'm not sure since the wheels are the same.


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 18:37:06 1999
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From: "Michael McWilliams" <CelMike@email.msn.com>
To: "stealth-3000" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Compression test
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 21:30:13 -0400
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Hi, guys.

I want to do a compression test on my '91 RT?TT in conjunction with changing
the plugs and wires. The service manual is vague on the proceedure.

First off, the manual says the engine should be at operating temperature
when the plugs are pulled to do the test. What they forget to mention is
that the intake plenum has to come off to get at the rear plugs. How are you
supposed to get the plenum pulled with the engine at operating temp without
burning the hell out of your hands or taking so long the engine cools below
operating? Is there a "cold" PSI range that indicates good compression?

Second, I assume that you have to disable the fuel injectors in some fashion
to prevent them from spraying while you are cranking the engine. The manual
again makes no reference. Is this necessary and if so what's the best way to
do so?

Lastly, the manual is silent on the number of revolutions you should crank
the engine in order to get an accurate reading. Does this matter?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help.

Mike





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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 21:41:38 1999
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From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Going the wet way
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 23:41:09 CDT
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Can you see the grin from ear to ear on my face?? Probably not. But I do
have Water Injection on my 95 Stealth now. John Basol and I hooked it up
tonight. And gosh darn it, it works!! I bought the Spearco 980 kit from
Accelerated. And I also bought a Predator battery so I'd have room to fit
the tank.

I have notice a few differences between John and me. My peek boost was only
1.28 kg/cm2 when letting the turbos spool in 3rd gear. John was able to get
some 1.39 runs out of his. I'll have to work on that mystery.

Another interesting note. When my stock solenoid was out of the loop, I
peaked at 1.26, but with it in the loop, I got a 1.28. Go figure?? We even
pulled the actuator hose off, but could only get a 1.24.

While in drag racing mode, my 2nd gear peaked at 1.1 and 3rd gear peaked at
1.22. I'm not sure what its going to take to get John's numbers. He was
running a 50/50 split with alcohol, as opposed to my set up with straight
distilled water. But I'm not sure if that will affect anything, but its
worth a shot.

I'm going to Rock Falls Raceway on Sunday, for some quarter mile times.
We'll see what happens. I'll probably leave the stock solenoid out of the
loop because it cuts boost too much in the upper RPMs.

I'm also thinking that maybe I need a 1g DSM BOV to help in the boost area,
but John has the stock one, and he still got higher boost. hmmm???

Here is some other stats that I really like..........

Minn 3/Sers with WI: 4
Rest of 3Si: 2

What are you waiting for?

The last thing that I ask from the Team 3S list.... Could someone please
talk John B out of selling his Stealth!!

later,
Curt G,
95 R/T TT
and author of Minnesota 3/S at: http://www.mn3s.org


_______________________________________________________________
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 21:55:32 1999
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From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: '94+ brakes on a pre '94
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 23:57:10 CDT
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Opps, I guess its time to change my wheels page. Jim, the rims did change
slightly in 94 on the Stealth TT. The inside diameter is different. Jim
Mathews can probably back me up. I'm sure he knows that his rims are styled
slightly different than the 91-93 rims. The 94+ rims have little grooves in
the spiral spokes, that the 91-93s don't have.

later,
Curt G,
95 R/T TT
and author of Minnesota 3/S at: http://www.mn3s.org



>From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
>To: "Wendlandt, Mark (MN51)" <MWendlan@cfsmo.honeywell.com>, "Team3S
>List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Subject: Re: Team3S: '94+ brakes on a pre '94
>Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:16:15 -0700
>
>I don't have a definitive answer for you but I can provide some
>information.
>I have a 93 stealth TT that had stock 17" wheels --- the smallest inside
>diameter is
>about 14 1/2". I replaced the stock wheels with 94 chrome VR4 17" wheels
>and
>measured the inside diameter at 15 1/2" the extra inch must be what allows
>the larger brakes.The Stealth uses the same rims from 91 to 96 [ see link
>http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Shop/1044/wheels.html ]. Maybe the
>Stealth
>didn't use the upgraded brakes and the VR4 did??????????
>I plan to upgrade my brakes but I now have the larger inside diameter 17"
>wheels.
>
> Jim berry
>
>
>
>
>
> > I have been thinking about upgrading my brakes to '94+ brakes but always
> > thought that it would not work with my '91RT/TT 17" wheels.
> >
> > I saw a picture of a '94 RT/TT and noticed that the wheels looked the
>same
> > as mine.
> >
> > I called the dealer and they said the the part number is the same for
>the
> > '91 wheel as the '94.
> >
> > Therefore, is it possible to upgrade my brakes without buying new
>wheels?
> >
> > The caliper are the same size, but I'm assuming that the hangers are
> > different to allow for the larger rotors.
> >
> > I'm sure that I've heard/read somewhere that the breaks won't work
>unless
> > you change the wheels, but now I'm not sure since the wheels are the
>same.
>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



_______________________________________________________________
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 22:14:50 1999
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From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Update on the car...
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 00:18:17 -0500
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New times tonight, considering the car was still not happy about going WOT I
managed to get a best ET of 11.39 @ 121mph.. With a best MPH of 124.06.


Considering I was using the AC in the staging lanes and running the car back
to back I was very happy.

Traction is still an issue.


Brad
Check out my home page: http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com ICQ# 3612682



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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 13 22:52:17 1999
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Message-ID: <37B503CB.8A7D4B3F@adelphia.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 01:51:07 -0400
From: RPM Motorsport <rpmmotorsport@adelphia.net>
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To: "stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Selling my car, good chance for plenty of parts
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I'm selling my 1991 VR-4, Blue, 69,000 miles on it. Asking $20,000
My cars pretty much done up already. Still driveable, but I think I
cracked a piston landing.
Here's a list of parts on the car
Apex'i AVC-R
Greddy Turbo Timer
HKS Single tip dual side exhaust
Alamo Downpipe
Test Pipe
HKS Fuel Pump
HKS VPC + GCC II
HKS 550 Injectors
TD04-15G Turbo's
Alamo Side Mount Intercooler upgrade
Test Pipe
HKS Fuel Pump
HKS VPC + GCC II
HKS 550 Injectors
TD04-15G Turbo's
Alamo Side Mount Intercooler upgrade
Bozz Speed Full Coilover suspension
Bozz Speed Camber plates
Paxton Fuel Pressure Regulator
KVR Cross Drill Rear Brakes
Bozz Speed Bonnet Scoops
Clutchmaster Stage 4 Full Metal Clutch
Greddy Peak Hold Boost and EGT tapped into Turbo hot side.
Blitz Techno Z-1 18x9 wheels + Potenza S0-2 255/35/18 tires
Clear Corner lense and clear side markers
GTO Rear Light assembly
Cusco Rear Strut Bar
Bozz Speed Y-pipe
Kenwood Head Unit


Will throw in:
Bozz Speed Wing Extension and Supports
Bozz Speed Light Flywheel
92 Engine, with heads
And I can arrange for a deal in JE Pistons, Head Porting, Rings, Crower
Rods and the labor involved.

Can work out a deal if you don't want the wheels or certain parts.
I'm located in Buffalo,NY but I can deliver the car to NYC area
I have some older pictures of it on the website below. I haven't updated

yet. So they're not the most recent.

________________________________________________________
Henry Yam URL: http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/speedway/8889

Bodykit information -> http://home.adelphia.net/~rpmmotor/

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 14 09:32:23 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "Team3S List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: ALL K&N FIPK owners please respond (gathering infos)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 18:31:34 +0200
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I'm gathering some information about the K&N FIPK and possible stuff to find
out about the honking goose sound and because I do not have anything else to
do, haha. Please answer the following :

1. year of car (only turbos) ?
2. aftermarket BOV (brand, else no) ?
3. honking goose sound ?
4. vacuum line to BPV changed ?
5. any other stuff connected to the vac. line from the manifold ?
6. boost controller (man/el/bleeder,brand, else no) ?
7. aftermarket y-pipe ?
8. cured, how ?
9. anything special worth to be mentioned ?

I'll post the findings when I do have enough answers.

Regards
Roger
93'3000GT TT


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 14 12:37:29 1999
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From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Off topic: Kudzus at 1999 LeMans
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Sorry to go off-topic a little, but I need to know how the 4-rotor Kudzus
from Downing Atlanta did at the 24 hueres de les Mans in 1999.

I've searched everywhere, but all I can find are 1998 results.

To Alta Vista, it's as if the 1999 le Mans hasn't happened yet.

I know that one of you will give me a link to a page that has all this
stuff, so thanks in advance.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 14 12:45:40 1999
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Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 14:46:41 -0500
To: stealth@starnet.net, stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Kudzus -- never mind
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As luck would have it, I found the Le Mans results immediately after I
sent the message.
As Emily would say, "never mind."

Thanks anyway. I know one of you woulda found it.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 14 13:23:35 1999
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Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 16:23:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Dennis G. Bretton " <dbretton@cs.uml.edu>
To: TEAM 3S List <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Upgrading brakes -proportioning valve-
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(posted this one before, but didn't hear anything)

Hello folks!

I know that the subject of brake upgrades has been a popular one in the
past, with various reviews of various set-ups.
Most recently, the Porsche 993 bi-turbo set-up has been considered a popular
alternative.

One of the complaints about the braking systems of the 3/S cars has been the
lack of support of the rears in assisting the stopping of the vehicle.

Has anyone considered using an other-than-OEM proportioning valve for our
cars?
A portion of the following web page discusses changing out stock Porshce
proportioning valve with the one from a 993 bi-turbo:
http://www.pca.org/rrr/tech/faq14.htm

If this could be done to our 3/S cars, wouldn't this help slow these fat
hogs down? ;)

What do you think?

Regards,
Dennis


_______________________________________________________________
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 14 13:42:29 1999
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Reply-To: <beking@home.com>
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: "TEAM 3S List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Upgrading brakes -proportioning valve-
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 13:43:41 -0700
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The proportionaing valve is only one part of the equation and actually comes
into play after other steps have been taken.

Think about this extreme case: 100% braking applied to the rear with 100%
weight transfer to the front. That'd be pretty ineffective. Obviously this
is not reality but it illustrates the point. Proportioning valves only help
if weight transfer is also under control. You WANT the brakes carrying the
most weight doing a proportional amount of the work. Most of the weight
under braking is carried by the front of the car. To get the rear end doing
more braking you don't want to make them brake harder (they'll lock up
sooner _reducing_ overall braking effectiveness) without making sure they
are carrying more of the weight. Even then you want to make sure everything
is in proportion.

The key to good braking (other than the obvious - good pads, rotors and
calipers) is to first get the suspension balanced properly, the weight of
the car reduced if possible, then worry about proportioning.

There are after market cockpit adjustable proprtioning valves available. I
have even seen computer controlled proportioning valves described which
adapt as Gs change. These may even have found their way into consumer cars.
Dunno but it seems logical.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Dennis G.
> Bretton
> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 1999 1:24 PM
> To: TEAM 3S List
> Subject: Team3S: Upgrading brakes -proportioning valve-
>
>
> (posted this one before, but didn't hear anything)
>
> Hello folks!
>
> I know that the subject of brake upgrades has been a popular
> one in the
> past, with various reviews of various set-ups.
> Most recently, the Porsche 993 bi-turbo set-up has been
> considered a popular
> alternative.
>
> One of the complaints about the braking systems of the 3/S cars
> has been the
> lack of support of the rears in assisting the stopping of the vehicle.
>
> Has anyone considered using an other-than-OEM proportioning valve for our
> cars?
> A portion of the following web page discusses changing out stock Porshce
> proportioning valve with the one from a 993 bi-turbo:
> http://www.pca.org/rrr/tech/faq14.htm
>
> If this could be done to our 3/S cars, wouldn't this help slow these fat
> hogs down? ;)
>
> What do you think?
>
> Regards,
> Dennis
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 14 14:39:39 1999
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From: Joshua <joshua@unconundrum.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: I need some help figuring what I have
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 17:39:13 -0400
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Well here is my status. I bought a car which had been in an accident and
had a NY police sticker on the front windshield. As far as I knew it was
stock. I came to a huge surprise. I drove it and the turbo's kicked in at
1800 rpms and were at 16 on the boost gauge by 2300-2400 rpms. It held this
straight through 6000 rpms. How can I tell if the turbo's have been
upgraded, chip upgraded, and or injectors? I never expected this but boy
was I in for a surprise. The car is really wicked. Thanks for any info.
Joshua
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 14 14:43:18 1999
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>One of the complaints about the braking systems of the 3/S cars has been the
>lack of support of the rears in assisting the stopping of the vehicle.

The folks at Porterfield say that by using a better pad in the rear, it
will increase braking back there.
I may try that next, after I make sure my fronts are up to snuff.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4/somebody stop me!


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 14 15:23:28 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "TEAM 3S List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Upgrading brakes -proportioning valve-
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 00:03:02 +0200
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I for myself would not touch the proportioning stuff as I just don^t know
who the stuff acts in a emergency situation. Maybe good, mabye bad. Even
more, making changes in these parts will cause in loosing every insurance
coverage here :-(

>The folks at Porterfield say that by using a better pad in the rear, it
>will increase braking back there.

I can double this ! I furst ran the Bremsas in the front and after two
months I got the rear ones with some better pads. The result was that the
car feels more, much more stable during brakings into turns. before that I
felt the back moving in very hard braking situations and this is totally
gone. Even more when running winter tires the feeling is much better.

Roger
93'3000GT TT


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 14 15:23:28 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: I need some help figuring what I have
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 00:08:53 +0200
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>stock. I came to a huge surprise. I drove it and the turbo's kicked in
at
>1800 rpms and were at 16 on the boost gauge by 2300-2400 rpms.

Therefore it has an aftermarket boost gauge installed ?

> It held this straight through 6000 rpms. How can I tell if the turbo's
have been
>upgraded, chip upgraded, and or injectors? I never expected this but boy
>was I in for a surprise. The car is really wicked. Thanks for any info.

If you have bigger injectors there must also be a controller for it. If you
haven't foudn it yet, I doubt that there is one. Another possibilty could be
an FCON or a ECU upgrade.

1800 and full boost ??? No, simply not possible on a 3l with turbos. If you
looked at the stock boost meter just forget it ! I pegs on the top if it
uses another fuel map or so. To make sure what you really run, take an
aftermarket bosot gauge and T it into a plenum hose. I would say that
someone maybe isntalled a bleeder valve and the car is maybe boosting too
high.

Roger
93'3000GT TT


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 14 18:50:12 1999
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From: "Ricardo Cousar" <rcousar@edss.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Mods Needed
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:56:47 -0600
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I am currently in the process of decieded which mods I should buy. Does =
anyone have any suggestions and parts I should consider buying? I have =
about 1k im willing spend on mods what should I go with. I currently =
have the stage one setup. Thanks.

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setup.&nbsp;Thanks.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 14 18:50:19 1999
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Subject: Team3S: Mods
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I am currently in the process of decieded which mods I should buy. Does =
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about 1k im willing spend on mods what should I go with. I currently =
have the stage one setup. Thanks, Ricardo.

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 14 20:01:57 1999
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Look at www.alteredatmosphere.com (Mike) East Coast, www.acceleratedaccessories.com (Matt) East Coast, or www.apexvr4.com (Indra) Phoenix, AZ; at their staging setup. All are about identical, so it lets you progress upwards with a planned way of upgrading. Both shops deal with the TT's and have very good prices, plus they are willing to talk with you on what you're trying to do and how much you have to spend.
--

On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:07:22 Ricardo Cousar wrote:
>I am currently in the process of decieded which mods I should buy. Does anyone have any suggestions and parts I should consider buying? I have about 1k im willing spend on mods what should I go with. I currently have the stage one setup. Thanks, Ricardo.
>


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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "Team3S List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: More WI results (temperature)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 17:02:51 +0200
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Building the 3D map on the ERL WIS is not the easist thing and hey, our cars
need a lot of water.

I'm stuck at the moment because I'm awaiting larger jets from the UK (a full
set for free !) as well as I have to increase water pressure from more flow.

My intensive test runs yesterday showed a significant decrease in knock
after the adjustables where set at their max level. But knock was still
there and I will go on soon. During my tests I did some temperature tests
with a wire prope just infront the TB. Here some important results :

1. without WI : 144°F max (almost 20°F more than Brads FMIC setup)
2. WI test 1 : 122°F (calculated curve)
3. WI test 2 : 121°F (slightly adjusted curve)
4. WI test 3 : 112°F (full water delivery with what is available at the
moment)

All the tests are replicable and show the very same results even with an
ambient temp change of 15°F from day to evening. There is absolutely no
difference infront the TB then.

With the WI I felt an immediate better response of the car and I think this
is due to the denser air. Switching the WI off felt like the car took longer
to climb the rpms. Knock was cut in half at 15.5psi boost but still there.
No retard anymore with an amount of about 18 compared to over 30 to 45
before.

Please note, my current setup consits of one water jet inserted in the
y-pipe at the front head and a larger jet in the y-pipe right after the BOV
outlet. The first one adds intercooling (do I really need a FMIC) while the
second one controls detonation.

More to come soon...

Roger
93'3000GT TT


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 15 08:53:22 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "Team3S List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: IC Temperatures (we have to do something)
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 17:52:28 +0200
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During my tests I noticed that the small metallic intercooler pipe mounted
to the front head is getting damn hot ! This is why I mounted one of the
jets to this location. But the pipe is getting 185°F hot !! This because it
is mounted above the front turbo as well to the head and close to the water
hose going to the radiator. Everything is damn hot there ! The other
metallic tube comming up from the left IC is much, much colder.

Now, we don't know how this heat will be transfered to the pressurized air
within the pipe and I'd say that any heat to the already intercooled air is
bad. I therefore think that a redesign of this stuff there should help to
reduce the heat. Adding heat shields, decoupling the pipe from the block or
whatever may help a lot. Just wrapping the pipe may not help as the heat is
transfered via the mounting points.

Question : Besides of a total IC upgrade has anyone already changed the
piping there or started thinking about a solution ? I think a proper
solution should not be expensive as maybe only a custom pipe must be taken
and the rubber hose that connects the two hardpipes together may be used to
connect the stuff together. Any more ideas, drawing, design, solutions are
very welcome !

Cheers,
Roger
93'3000GT (fighting the heat !)

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 15 09:53:25 1999
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Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 12:52:13 EDT
Subject: Re: Team3S: Can't shift into third?
To: wce@bc.sympatico.ca, robby@freesurf.ch
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In a message dated 8/13/99 11:32:09 AM Central Daylight Time,
wce@bc.sympatico.ca writes:

<< Someone posted awhile back on the shifter linkage control arm (under the
blow off valve)
At this location the roll pin occasionally becomes unadjusted...it sticks
out too far
and you consequently cannot get into third gear in particular. Realign the
parts and
secure the roll pin.

Best

Darc
>>

That was me who posted to check your shifter linkage control area; the
roll pin was sticking out too far and became an "obstruction" preventing me
from shifting into 2nd and 4th. gears (1st. generation VR4 - 5 speed
transmission with only 12,000 miles -previously replaced under warranty). I
highly advise to check this area out; BUT you ARE under warranty - so if you
want a NEW Transmission (assuming if you beat on your current 17K
transmission) simply take your car into the Mitsubishi dealership and chances
are the Service dept. will assume your transmission is shot therefore they
will issue you a new transmission UNDER warranty. lol.......I'm sorry but
since Mitsubishi seems to SHAFT us whenever we go to the service dept. (and
expect us to pay about $6,000 for a new transmission when we are out of
warranty) MIGHT as well SHAFT them and get a new Transmission!!!!!!!!

Good luck!

Ahmed "AL-Crazy" - '92 VR4
GReddy Profec B boost controller, GReddy turbo timer, Apex'i sequential
b.o.v., SPI motorsport boost gauge & pillar pod, K&N filtercharger, Alamo
Downpipe, Hi-flow cat, Borla exhaust, Magnecore 8.5mm wires & new NGK spark
plugs gapped at .032, Apex'i New liquid crystal Super AFC (not installed
yet), KVR Cross drilled rotors with carbon fiber pads, Nitto Power Extreme
NT-555 (255/40/17's) tires, Enkei RP-O1 17x9 (42mm offset) racing wheels &
Eibach Pro-Kit Springs (not installed yet). Coming soon: Turbo upgrade,
550cc. injectors & HKS fuel pump (hopefully all will be installed before
Sept. 12th & 18th.)
&
1987 Grand National (for sale): way too many mods to list!
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 15 13:14:47 1999
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Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:13:57 EDT
Subject: Team3S: Suspension Question
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I have a 92' Stealth NA that was simply way to high off the ground, so I
wanted to lower it only I couldn't find any springs that lowered the car more
than 1.75 inches wich just didn't look like it would be enough with my 16
inch KMC High Groove's, and 225/50/R16 Falken Zieks. You can see a picture
of my car before and after I lowered it by heating the base of the springs
with a blow torch. I want to replace the struts if i can with shorter and
tighter struts and then mabey leave the heated springs on, because it
actually road ok before the struts went out. Anybody have any advice for me
or know where I can look for a suspension fix for the front on my car under
300 dollars? or 500?
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 15 14:23:51 1999
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Subject: Team3S: Team3s: 1st autorcross - techniques?
From: "Ian Marks" <ianmarks@earthlink.net>
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Just got back from my 1st ever autocross (in any car). From my 1st run
to my last I cut ten seconds off my time. Many 911's and BMW's there. One of
the quickest was little Plymouth Neon.
Being a short and very twisty course I have some questions on tactics.
My best times happened when I thought my technique was the worst - skidding
and chattering around the skidpad. With the AWD should I just damn the
torpedoes and plow straight through the turns using the power to claw around
the corners? I also thought I should have let some air out of my tires as
well.
Any thoughts?

--
Ian Marks
'94 RT/TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 15 14:52:42 1999
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From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Team3s: 1st autorcross - techniques?
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At 05:23 PM 8/15/99 -0500, Ian Marks wrote:
> Just got back from my 1st ever autocross (in any car). From my 1st run
>to my last I cut ten seconds off my time.

Very good.

One of
>the quickest was little Plymouth Neon.

Musta been an SCCA autocross. They love to cater to little shitbox cars.

> Being a short and very twisty course I have some questions on tactics.
>My best times happened when I thought my technique was the worst - skidding
>and chattering around the skidpad. With the AWD should I just damn the
>torpedoes and plow straight through the turns using the power to claw around
>the corners?

Yes. Not sure about "plow" but you have the right idea.

I also thought I should have let some air out of my tires as
>well.

Chalk the tires to see if you are rolling the sidewalls under. If so, pump
up the tires.
If not, let air out.
>
Rich/old poop/94 VR4
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 15 23:41:21 1999
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Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 02:40:49 EDT
Subject: Team3S: 95 VR-4 with Glow in the dark turbo! Oil pressure problem too!!!
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Okay, it's 2:30 a.m and I took the 95 Vr-4 for a lil drive. I am
experiencing two major problems! When my car heats up, the oil pressure will
only make it to the firs big bar on my oil pressure guage at full throttle.
The oil pressure is perfectly fine when the car is cooler. Is this because
my Mobil 1 10w30 oil sucks, or could this be tell tell signs of my
intercoolers going bad? Second problem is, If I do 1/2 mile
accelerations, my rear turbo glows bright enough to light up my firewall
area!!! Is this normal ???? This makes me very nervous, I've allready had
to have the turbo lines resealed.
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 16 00:39:47 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 95 VR-4 with Glow in the dark turbo! Oil pressure problem too!!!
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:39:29 +0200
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>Okay, it's 2:30 a.m and I took the 95 Vr-4 for a lil drive.

Hey, others sleep at this time, hehe

> When my car heats up, the oil pressure will
>only make it to the firs big bar on my oil pressure guage at full throttle.
>The oil pressure is perfectly fine when the car is cooler. Is this because
>my Mobil 1 10w30 oil sucks, or could this be tell tell signs of my
>intercoolers going bad?

This has absolutely nothing to do with your intercoolers for sure. In my
point of view, 10W30 is not heavy enough. As an example, in summer I'm
running 10W60 and winter 0W40 and the needle is below the normal mark only
at idle in any time. Our engines are somewhat hot and the oil needs to be
higher rated, and not only the 10W30 told in the manual.

>accelerations, my rear turbo glows bright enough to light up my firewall
>area!!! Is this normal ???? This makes me very nervous, I've allready had
>to have the turbo lines resealed.

And why had the turbo lines to be resealed ? A problem should be solved and
this sounds like a symptom had been cured but the problem still exists. My
turbos only glow a little (13G) and I just think that the oil pressure and
ultra-hot turbo are pointing to the same problem.

This is what I'd do : Do a good engine flush to free up some paths and lines
in the oil system. You may have clogged oil lines from the turbo due to the
low temp oil that got burnt in the turbo. The turbo is maybe full of old,
burnt, oil and this heats up like hell. Do you also see the water temp
rising a little ?

Hope this helps,
Roger
93''3000GT TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 16 08:06:04 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: 95 VR-4 with Glow in the dark turbo! Oil pressure problem too!!!
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Ditto Roger's advise on the oil flush. Our turbos cook the oil, even if it is Mobil 1
(imagine what fossil oil would look like). Alos be certain to idle down before shutting
off your car. This is a major reason for oil cooking in the turbos and turbo lines. The
flush (use a real good one) should help out in my estimate. Also, if you park at home
inside a closed garage, get in the habit of popping the hood when you shut off (after at
least a minute idle down) to help cool it off. A closed hood is a pressure cooker with
these cars.

Best

Darc

R.G. wrote:

> >Okay, it's 2:30 a.m and I took the 95 Vr-4 for a lil drive.
>
> Hey, others sleep at this time, hehe
>
> > When my car heats up, the oil pressure will
> >only make it to the firs big bar on my oil pressure guage at full throttle.
> >The oil pressure is perfectly fine when the car is cooler. Is this because
> >my Mobil 1 10w30 oil sucks, or could this be tell tell signs of my
> >intercoolers going bad?
>
> This has absolutely nothing to do with your intercoolers for sure. In my
> point of view, 10W30 is not heavy enough. As an example, in summer I'm
> running 10W60 and winter 0W40 and the needle is below the normal mark only
> at idle in any time. Our engines are somewhat hot and the oil needs to be
> higher rated, and not only the 10W30 told in the manual.
>
> >accelerations, my rear turbo glows bright enough to light up my firewall
> >area!!! Is this normal ???? This makes me very nervous, I've allready had
> >to have the turbo lines resealed.
>
> And why had the turbo lines to be resealed ? A problem should be solved and
> this sounds like a symptom had been cured but the problem still exists. My
> turbos only glow a little (13G) and I just think that the oil pressure and
> ultra-hot turbo are pointing to the same problem.
>
> This is what I'd do : Do a good engine flush to free up some paths and lines
> in the oil system. You may have clogged oil lines from the turbo due to the
> low temp oil that got burnt in the turbo. The turbo is maybe full of old,
> burnt, oil and this heats up like hell. Do you also see the water temp
> rising a little ?
>
> Hope this helps,
> Roger
> 93''3000GT TT
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 16 15:52:03 1999
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Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 17:52:58 -0500
To: stealth@starnet.net, stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Ground Control Qs
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My mechanic took one look at the Ground Control kit and had three questions:

1. Do these little bitty Iebach springs go inside those great big front
springs or do they replace them? (I was wondering the same thing).
2. OK, so we lower the car one inch. What are the new alignment settings?
(apparently, some spring mfgs are kind enough to supply such information
for lowering a car). Or is it same as stock?
3. How do I adjust the rear alignment? (He's worried that when it's
lowered one inch, there'll be too much camber back there, and he's not sure
he can adjust it out).

I've looked at what passes for GC documentation, and I can't answer his
questions. I've started dumping pages off the shop manual CD-ROM, but I
haven't found any answers in there (yet), either. We may be putting these
puppies on this week, so:

Anybody got any answers?

Rich/old poop/94 VR4






For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 16 17:39:54 1999
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Date: 16 Aug 99 18:48:34 MDT
From: Mark Creekmore <mcreekmore@usa.net>
To: stealth@starnet.net, stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: [Team3S: Ground Control Qs]
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Merritt,

The iebach springs replace the the stock springs.

When I had my Stealth re-aligned and balanced my mechanic used the stock
settings, and your right, the adjustments weren't good enough. He was able to
elongate the adjustment holes and bring the car back to factory specs. The
shop that I use also races stock cars. They have all of the laser alignment
equipment and a good set of wheel scales.

I hope this helps,

Mark


Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net> wrote:
My mechanic took one look at the Ground Control kit and had three questions:

1. Do these little bitty Iebach springs go inside those great big front
springs or do they replace them? (I was wondering the same thing).
2. OK, so we lower the car one inch. What are the new alignment settings?
(apparently, some spring mfgs are kind enough to supply such information
for lowering a car). Or is it same as stock?
3. How do I adjust the rear alignment? (He's worried that when it's
lowered one inch, there'll be too much camber back there, and he's not sure
he can adjust it out).

I've looked at what passes for GC documentation, and I can't answer his
questions. I've started dumping pages off the shop manual CD-ROM, but I
haven't found any answers in there (yet), either. We may be putting these
puppies on this week, so:

Anybody got any answers?

Rich/old poop/94 VR4






For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 16 19:17:31 1999
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From: "Paul T. Golley" <ptgolley@ro.com>
To: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: more brake stuff
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:14:30 -0500
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-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Bedell <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Thursday, August 12, 1999 10:36 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: more brake stuff


>If I remember correctly, two of the pads should have the squeal indicators.
>The correct mounting is on the inside pad.
>Regarding VR-4 brakes: I recently ordered a set of pads for the front
>brakes on my '95 VR-4, from Tallassee Mitsubishi. I noticed that only one
>of the four pads had metal "fingers" which would squeal when you began to
>run out of pad thickness. Is this normal; or should all pads have wear
>"squeal" members?


Brad-
Thanks for the info!
Regards,
ptg

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 16 19:26:15 1999
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From: Joshua <joshua@unconundrum.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: ANyone have or use the Blitz turbo timer and boost gauge?
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 22:25:41 -0400
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I have the Dual Blitz turbo timer and boost gauge. I have the HKS EVC IV
set at 1.10 but the boost gauge in first gear only hits .75. I would have
thought it would hit 110. AM I wrong? Anyone tell me what their boost
gauge reads?
Thanks

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 16 19:28:39 1999
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Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 22:28:05 EDT
Subject: Team3S: Where is coolant level sensor?
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Going around a sharp my coolant low level light flickers - hard right turns
only. I added coolant to the reservoir - no change. Will it take a few
warm-up/cool-down cycles to draw the new coolant into the radiator/engine
cooling system? Do I have a sensor about to fritz? Where is the sensor -
engine block? radiator? bottom of the reservoir?

Thanks for any info I can get!

Paul Klusman
'91 VR4
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 16 20:07:09 1999
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Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:06:34 EDT
Subject: Team3S: Minimum brake rotor thickness
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
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Can anybody tell me the minimum thickness for front rotors on a '91 vr4? I've
got some at 1.183" Are these too thin to remove material yet?

Thanks!

Paul Klusman
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 16 20:35:53 1999
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From: "Vineet Singh" <billi_gates@hotmail.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <199908152014.NAA25707@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Boost guage tapping (caution)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:43:53 -0500
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A word of caution to anyone installing a boost guage.

The best place IS the brake booster hose. It goes from the back of the
intake plenum (near the throttle body, substantial hose) to the brake
booster (above your steering linkage). Tee it off and run a silicon hose to
the cockpit for your guage.

The caution part is... DON'T JUST REPLACE that hose with a large diameter
silicon hose (like I tried). Guess what... you can't STOP if you are coming
off boost! (the brakes are ROCK HARD).

The STOCK hose has a "one way valve" in it. I assume it keeps boost pressure
from messing with the power assist portion of the brake booster. You CAN
push the one way valve out and try to install it in another hose, but I
don't recommend it. You should have seen my face as I came up to the stop
sign and almost flew through it (can we say DOWN SHIFT??? :)

Vineet Singh
Manuals On CD - http://manualcd.dsm.org
Club DSM A/T - http://at.dsm.org - "Never Lift To Shift!"

(PS: I kicked a mechtec 5.0 mustangs ass! with slicks in back, skinny's up
front and loud exhaust. We were dead even until he had to shift at what
seemed like 5-6k rpm (his car).. I carried on to 7k, and shifted quicker
than you can say WOW, and got about a doors length ahead of him. We never (I
didn't atleast) see 3rd, as we were already 15 over the speed limit (55). He
rolled his window down at the next lite and asked if it was twin turbo and I
said yes.. and it's mostly STOCK! :)

Then my wife (following in the 91 AWD A/T Talon) also blew past him at the
next light. We were toying with each other for about 3 miles before we waved
and went our different ways. I must have humbled him tonite :)

Oh yea, according to him... it's a BAD ASS RIDE :) Mitsu's RULE! :) (can you
tell I'm happy tonite? :) :) :)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 16 20:40:28 1999
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From: "Vineet Singh" <billi_gates@hotmail.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Messed up stock IC's?
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:48:28 -0500
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One more thing. Earlier today, I went to inspect both of the IC's (stock for
now). To my dismay, I saw that the passenger side one is kinda mangled up
(the fins are 30-40% smushed), and the drivers side one isn't much better
(20-25% mushed up).

Anyone have decent stock IC's for sale? Anyone know if the stock DSM IC is
an "upgrade" (they were designed with larger 14b's in mind, so I would think
so!)

Are the stock IC endtanks PLASTIC??? (like the rads?) They LOOK that way!

Vineet Singh
Manuals On CD - http://manualcd.dsm.org
Club DSM A/T - http://at.dsm.org - "Never Lift To Shift!"
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 16 20:41:20 1999
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Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 23:41:07 -0400
From: Ron Thompson <rtetetet@earthlink.net>
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To: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Ground Control Qs
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I've posted this before, but some of you are new or missed it. The
rear suspension mod for returning the camber to normal after
installing lowering springs is as follows.

The lower control arm has an eccentric head bolt that rides against
the yoke that holds the control arm. Loosening this bolt allows
rotating the bolt head with the eccentric to get camber adjustment.
With lowering springs there may not be enough stock adjustment to
overcome negative camber. From the rear of car, wheels look like they
are squatting. /\ You need extra adjustment. Elongate the holes, from
center of car towards the wheel, in the upper control arm yokes to
push the top of the wheel out. It will take about an 1/8" to get you
back to 'Zero' if you are between .75 to 1.23 degrees negative camber.
The bolt that holds the control arm in the yoke is big, 17 mm to 19
mm. Once torque down the control arm won't move on you. This leaves
the lower control arm can then still be used for fine adjustment.

The same can be done with the front with the strut tower mounting
holes. Elongate them towards the wheel.

This must be done carefully, no sloppy make the hole bigger all around
or you will affect other adjustments on your alignment. Nice straight,
same width elongation.

I have basic, Windows draw, art and basic text as an attachment, if
anyone wants it, E-mail me off line so as not to clog the list.

Ron


Merritt wrote:
>
> My mechanic took one look at the Ground Control kit and had three questions:
>
> 1. Do these little bitty Iebach springs go inside those great big front
> springs or do they replace them? (I was wondering the same thing).
> 2. OK, so we lower the car one inch. What are the new alignment settings?
> (apparently, some spring mfgs are kind enough to supply such information
> for lowering a car). Or is it same as stock?
> 3. How do I adjust the rear alignment? (He's worried that when it's
> lowered one inch, there'll be too much camber back there, and he's not sure
> he can adjust it out).
>
> I've looked at what passes for GC documentation, and I can't answer his
> questions. I've started dumping pages off the shop manual CD-ROM, but I
> haven't found any answers in there (yet), either. We may be putting these
> puppies on this week, so:
>
> Anybody got any answers?
>
> Rich/old poop/94 VR4
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 16 20:55:43 1999
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From: "Paul T. Golley" <ptgolley@ro.com>
To: <stealth@starnet.net>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Ground Control Qs
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 22:52:40 -0500
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>1. Do these little bitty Iebach springs go inside those great big front
>springs or do they replace them? (I was wondering the same thing).
>2. OK, so we lower the car one inch. What are the new alignment settings?
>(apparently, some spring mfgs are kind enough to supply such information
>for lowering a car). Or is it same as stock?
>3. How do I adjust the rear alignment? (He's worried that when it's
>lowered one inch, there'll be too much camber back there, and he's not sure
>he can adjust it out).
Rich-
Old Poop,(you are probably younger than I); but I would sure
like to know the answers to your questions here. Namely, how
much do the Eibachs (spring-overs), allow you to lower the car;
what are the new spring rates that result; how much are jounce
and rebound travel changed, and do the existing camber adjustments
(front and rear) allow you to get back to near stock (no high-
wearing) camber angles. I'd be priviliged to hear what you learn.
Regards,
ptg

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 05:13:08 1999
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In a message dated 8/16/99 9:29:07 PM Central Daylight Time, Klusmanp@aol.com
writes:

<< Going around a sharp my coolant low level light flickers - hard right
turns
only. I added coolant to the reservoir - no change. Will it take a few
warm-up/cool-down cycles to draw the new coolant into the radiator/engine
cooling system? Do I have a sensor about to fritz? Where is the sensor -
engine block? radiator? bottom of the reservoir?

Thanks for any info I can get!

Paul Klusman
'91 VR4
>>

Paul,

Sometimes people mistake the low coolant level indicator for the low
windshield washer indicator (and vice versa); I would first top off your
windshield washer fluid reservoir first; then take a test run and take some
sharp right and left turns!! Chances are that will resolve your problem.

Good luck,

Ahmed "AL-Crazy" - '92 VR4
GReddy Profec B boost controller, GReddy turbo timer, Apex'i sequential
b.o.v., SPI motorsport boost gauge & pillar pod, K&N filtercharger, Alamo
Downpipe, Hi-flow cat, Borla exhaust, Magnecore 8.5mm wires & new NGK spark
plugs gapped at .032, Apex'i New liquid crystal Super AFC (not installed
yet), KVR Cross drilled rotors with carbon fiber pads, Nitto Power Extreme
NT-555 (255/40/17's) tires, Enkei RP-O1 17x9 (42mm offset) racing wheels &
Eibach Pro-Kit Springs (not installed yet). Coming soon: Turbo upgrade,
550cc. injectors & HKS fuel pump (hopefully all will be installed before
Sept. 12th & 18th.)
&
1987 Grand National (for sale): way too many mods to list!



--part1_4db221e3.24eaaba9_boundary--
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 05:14:31 1999
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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:14:00 EDT
Subject: Re: Team3S: Messed up stock IC's?
To: billi_gates@hotmail.com, stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
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In a message dated 8/16/99 10:40:52 PM Central Daylight Time,
billi_gates@hotmail.com writes:

<< One more thing. Earlier today, I went to inspect both of the IC's (stock
for
now). To my dismay, I saw that the passenger side one is kinda mangled up
(the fins are 30-40% smushed), and the drivers side one isn't much better
(20-25% mushed up).
>>

Hey Vineet,

My stock sidemount IC's are also mangled up due to rocks and debris
hitting them at low and high speeds (probably mostly HIGH speeds - lol ;). I
haven't noted any problems; I am in the process of hopefully acquiring a new
upgraded IC kit; so I will have my stock ones available sometime soon (maybe
within a month or two). But in the meantime, I think you'll be fine with
your stock ones for now (several of us have the same "mangled" up fins you
mentioned and the performance of our cars seem fine. I'll email you and post
to the lists when I have my stock IC's available.

Talk to later,

Ahmed "AL-Crazy" - '92 VR4
GReddy Profec B boost controller, GReddy turbo timer, Apex'i sequential
b.o.v., SPI motorsport boost gauge & pillar pod, K&N filtercharger, Alamo
Downpipe, Hi-flow cat, Borla exhaust, Magnecore 8.5mm wires & new NGK spark
plugs gapped at .032, Apex'i New liquid crystal Super AFC (not installed
yet), KVR Cross drilled rotors with carbon fiber pads, Nitto Power Extreme
NT-555 (255/40/17's) tires, Enkei RP-O1 17x9 (42mm offset) racing wheels &
Eibach Pro-Kit Springs (not installed yet). Coming soon: Turbo upgrade,
550cc. injectors & HKS fuel pump (hopefully all will be installed before
Sept. 12th & 18th.)
&
1987 Grand National (for sale): way too many mods to list!

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 07:21:09 1999
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?= <vr4@bahnhof.se>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Ground Control
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:17:02 +0200
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Hi

I just received my ground control kit, looks great but I haven't received any of the rubber parts that are mentioned in the installation description.

Have you guys received any rubber parts ???

/Mikael http://www.3000gt.nu


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 08:34:26 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Gas & Oil Level
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What is MTBE?

Also, do you know what the other fellow who said that the Mobil 1 filter
was "lacking something" was talking about?

I've compared diagrams of Mobil 1 and other filters and it looks like
everything is in place.

mb

PS Spent almost $30 to change my oil - in just supplies! If anyone knows
of somewhere cheap I can pick up Mobil 1 near Boston, please advise.

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 09:00:57 1999
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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 09:00:18 -0700
From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Organization: General Atomics - Fusion Group
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Minimum brake rotor thickness
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> Can anybody tell me the minimum thickness for front rotors on a '91 vr4? I've
> got some at 1.183" Are these too thin to remove material yet?

I think it is 1.250". It may be stamped somewhere on the disk, usually on the
inside of OEM disks. Perhaps someone with a manual can give specifics.
--
I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 09:22:00 1999
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Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 11:14:12 -0500
From: Gabriel Estrada <typhoonzz@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Gas & Oil Level
To: Mike Baldwin <mbaldwin@eecs.tufts.edu>, Terry Swift <tlswift@hotbot.com>
Cc: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com, Bob Forrest <bf@bobforrest.com>
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I don't know if you have a Wal-mart near you, but in the Kansas City area I
found that they have the 5 gallon containers for around $14. For the most
part, it is never cheap, but by stopping and adding, you can actually get 6
quarts individually for about $3 less than by getting it in the sixpacks.
Go figure, you are paying $3 for a nice little box
Gabe Estrada
94 Pearl Yellow 3000 GT VR-4
92 Gmc Typhoon
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Baldwin <mbaldwin@eecs.tufts.edu>
To: Terry Swift <tlswift@hotbot.com>
Cc: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>; Bob Forrest <bf@bobforrest.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Gas & Oil Level


> What is MTBE?
>
> Also, do you know what the other fellow who said that the Mobil 1 filter
> was "lacking something" was talking about?
>
> I've compared diagrams of Mobil 1 and other filters and it looks like
> everything is in place.
>
> mb
>
> PS Spent almost $30 to change my oil - in just supplies! If anyone knows
> of somewhere cheap I can pick up Mobil 1 near Boston, please advise.
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 10:54:03 1999
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From: "Noel Desnos" <NoelDesnos@totalise.co.uk>
To: "3si" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Stiff gear shift
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:53:51 +0100
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Hi

the gear shift from 1st to 2nd is stiff when my car is in motion. When the
engine is not running the grear shift is much easier.

This is on a 95 GTO 6 speed manual with 25k miles

Any ideas on the cause/cure

Thanks

Noel

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 11:29:31 1999
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: "Mike Baldwin" <mbaldwin@eecs.tufts.edu>,
"Terry Swift" <tlswift@hotbot.com>
Cc: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: MTBE, Mobil-1filter... (was: Gas & Oil Level...)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 11:26:51 -0700
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-----Original Message-----From: Mike Baldwin <mbaldwin@eecs.tufts.edu>
>What is MTBE?

"WHEN the environmental finger was pointed at TEL (tetra-ethyl lead)
as a health risk because of its lead content, a complex chemical was
waiting in the wings to replace it. That was how MTBE--methyl tertiary
butyl ether--came to be used as an octane-boosting, knock-reducing
agent in today’s unleaded gasoline. MTBE has since been touted to also
be a CO reducer. That aside, MTBE is now a major constituent of RFG
(reformulated gasoline), which is specified for many non-compliance,
poor air quality markets as a means of reducing harmful automotive
exhaust emissions during the year, particularly during the winter
months."
---according to auto-talk.com...


>Also, do you know what the other fellow who said that the Mobil 1
filter
>was "lacking something" was talking about?
>I've compared diagrams of Mobil 1 and other filters and it looks like
>everything is in place.

I was the "other fellow" who said that, and it looks like I was
wrong... I had thought I heard that about Mobil 1 filters, but I must
have been thinking of another filter-- And I was hoping someone else
on the list with a better memory would come up with "chapter and
verse..." on the 'problem filter' but no one has... Other folks on
the list have said the Mobil 1 filter is fine, so I guess I was
thinking of another filter as being problematic. Oh, well..., as
'Emily Latella' would say on SNL..., "Never Mind!" :-)

F





For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 11:54:52 1999
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From: "Wallis, Gavin" <WallisG@MWAA.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: RPS Turbo Carbon Clutch
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 14:55:48 -0400
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Anybody have them? As much detail as possible....ramble please :). I'm going
to be getting one soon.

-G
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 13:11:07 1999
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Message-ID: <006c01bee8ec$5f2fb300$80eb86cd@sch>
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: "Ron Thompson" <rtetetet@earthlink.net>,
"Merritt" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Cc: <stealth@starnet.net>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Eibach Pro-Kit Lowering Springs... Stealth "Camber Kit"?
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 13:07:52 -0700
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I faxed Ron's great instructions to the dealer who is doing the
installation of my Eibachs. The service rep said that my car ('94
Stealth NT base) already had a "Camber Kit" in place, and he didn't
know if my (Ron's) adjustments would be necessary. I must admit to
not knowing why I've got a "Camber Kit" (which I thought was an
aftermarket add-on) on a base model car that I bought new... Can
someone please advise...? Was this standard???

TIA,

Forrest

-----Original Message-----From: Ron Thompson <rtetetet@earthlink.net>
>I've posted this before, but some of you are new or missed it. The
>rear suspension mod for returning the camber to normal after
>installing lowering springs is as follows.
>
>The lower control arm has an eccentric head bolt that rides against
>the yoke that holds the control arm. Loosening this bolt allows
>rotating the bolt head with the eccentric to get camber adjustment.
>With lowering springs there may not be enough stock adjustment to
>overcome negative camber. From the rear of car, wheels look like they
>are squatting. /\ You need extra adjustment. Elongate the holes, from
>center of car towards the wheel, in the upper control arm yokes to
>push the top of the wheel out. It will take about an 1/8" to get you
>back to 'Zero' if you are between .75 to 1.23 degrees negative
camber.
>The bolt that holds the control arm in the yoke is big, 17 mm to 19
>mm. Once torque down the control arm won't move on you. This leaves
>the lower control arm can then still be used for fine adjustment.
>
>The same can be done with the front with the strut tower mounting
>holes. Elongate them towards the wheel.
>
>This must be done carefully, no sloppy make the hole bigger all
around
>or you will affect other adjustments on your alignment. Nice
straight,
>same width elongation.




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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 14:46:42 1999
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To: "Wallis, Gavin" <WallisG@MWAA.com>
CC: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: RPS Turbo Carbon Clutch
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Gavin, et al;

I was planning on a report on RPS in the near future, but I guess sooner is better than
later. I was hoping for an update from Roger on his situation before posting, but he
can amend or add as he sees fit, as the Group Purchase leader. I do know, because of
his location in Switzerland, that the logistics of the order were more complicated for
him, than for me, and for me, it was more complicated than those inside the country.

As you all know we purchased (Group Purchase) through Frank and Matt at Accelerated
Accessories. Shortly after the orders were filled and started to go out to the
prospective clients, Frank advised me and others who purchased the carbon turbo to
contact Rob at RPS as soon as possible for potential problems. Apparently there had been
some problems in production, discovered after the fact, and to insure that none of our
clutches were faulty, Rob asked for a recall. He also recalled the pressure plate at the
same time to insure quality control had not been compromised by a newly trained worker.
So my whole package did a round trip from RPS to Canada and back. Rob was especially
apologetic, professional, and courteous, and guaranteed satisfaction with a new improved
disc (based on a better and more homogeneous resin/fiber mix, used in an improved mold
for the second run). The round trip and delay added about a month extra to the time
involved, but RPS (Rob) reimbursed me $200 for the hassle, added expenses, offset to
reinstallation, etc. This was stand up thing to do in my opinion, as it is not noted
in the warranty that this sort of assistance would be afforded, and it implies the
opposite. and, I was offered the partial reimbursement without asking for it. So, my
view at this point, is that customer relations, and a quality product are very important
to RPS. As I have not installed the product (just received) it is not within my scope to
comment on it's attributes. However, if it performs up to it's manufactures
expectations, up to their high standards of quality control and customer satisfaction,
then it should be a winner.

Best

Darc

Wallis, Gavin wrote:

> Anybody have them? As much detail as possible....ramble please :). I'm going
> to be getting one soon.
>
> -G
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 15:02:32 1999
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: <wce@bc.sympatico.ca>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RPS Turbo Carbon Clutch
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 15:00:56 -0700
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As an aside, but related... I was part of the Group Purchase, but
ordered the RPS Carbon Claw for my Stealth NT. As Matt said, RPS
production was delayed for a while, but the clutch and throw-out
bearing (shipped separately) arrived as promised. My Dodge dealer
installed it for me, and I couldn't be happier. It grabs a lot
quicker than the stock clutch, and you CAN slip it, once you get used
to it, but it feels like it really WANTS to engage tightly. I'm still
in the break-in period, so I haven't tested it fully, but this clutch
feels about perfect to me.

A great product at a great price, IMO...

Forrest

-----Original Message-----From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
<wce@bc.sympatico.ca>
>Gavin, et al;
>
>I was planning on a report on RPS in the near future, but I guess
sooner is better than
>later. I was hoping for an update from Roger on his situation before
posting, but he
>can amend or add as he sees fit, as the Group Purchase leader. I do
know, because of
>his location in Switzerland, that the logistics of the order were
more complicated for
>him, than for me, and for me, it was more complicated than those
inside the country.
>
>As you all know we purchased (Group Purchase) through Frank and Matt
at Accelerated
>Accessories. Shortly after the orders were filled and started to go
out to the
>prospective clients, Frank advised me and others who purchased the
carbon turbo to
>contact Rob at RPS as soon as possible for potential problems.
Apparently there had been
>some problems in production, discovered after the fact, and to insure
that none of our
>clutches were faulty, Rob asked for a recall. He also recalled the
pressure plate at the
>same time to insure quality control had not been compromised by a
newly trained worker.
>So my whole package did a round trip from RPS to Canada and back. Rob
was especially
>apologetic, professional, and courteous, and guaranteed satisfaction
with a new improved
>disc (based on a better and more homogeneous resin/fiber mix, used
in an improved mold
>for the second run). The round trip and delay added about a month
extra to the time
>involved, but RPS (Rob) reimbursed me $200 for the hassle, added
expenses, offset to
>reinstallation, etc. This was stand up thing to do in my opinion, as
it is not noted
>in the warranty that this sort of assistance would be afforded, and
it implies the
>opposite. and, I was offered the partial reimbursement without asking
for it. So, my
>view at this point, is that customer relations, and a quality product
are very important
>to RPS. As I have not installed the product (just received) it is not
within my scope to
>comment on it's attributes. However, if it performs up to it's
manufactures
>expectations, up to their high standards of quality control and
customer satisfaction,
>then it should be a winner.




For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 15:10:42 1999
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From: "Michael Reiss" <michael_reiss@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: RPS Turbo Carbon Clutch
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:10:16 GMT
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Recall? When was RPS going to contact the other people involved
with the group purchase of substandard TC clutches.
Can I send mine back to have it replaced with the "new and improved"
disc? Any one have Robs direct #?


----Original Message Follows----
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Reply-To: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
To: "Wallis, Gavin" <WallisG@MWAA.com>
CC: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: RPS Turbo Carbon Clutch
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 14:44:41 -0700

Gavin, et al;

I was planning on a report on RPS in the near future, but I guess sooner is
better than
later. I was hoping for an update from Roger on his situation before
posting, but he
can amend or add as he sees fit, as the Group Purchase leader. I do know,
because of
his location in Switzerland, that the logistics of the order were more
complicated for
him, than for me, and for me, it was more complicated than those inside the
country.

As you all know we purchased (Group Purchase) through Frank and Matt at
Accelerated
Accessories. Shortly after the orders were filled and started to go out to
the
prospective clients, Frank advised me and others who purchased the carbon
turbo to
contact Rob at RPS as soon as possible for potential problems. Apparently
there had been
some problems in production, discovered after the fact, and to insure that
none of our
clutches were faulty, Rob asked for a recall. He also recalled the pressure
plate at the
same time to insure quality control had not been compromised by a newly
trained worker.
So my whole package did a round trip from RPS to Canada and back. Rob was
especially
apologetic, professional, and courteous, and guaranteed satisfaction with a
new improved
disc (based on a better and more homogeneous resin/fiber mix, used in an
improved mold
for the second run). The round trip and delay added about a month extra to
the time
involved, but RPS (Rob) reimbursed me $200 for the hassle, added expenses,
offset to
reinstallation, etc. This was stand up thing to do in my opinion, as it is
not noted
in the warranty that this sort of assistance would be afforded, and it
implies the
opposite. and, I was offered the partial reimbursement without asking for
it. So, my
view at this point, is that customer relations, and a quality product are
very important
to RPS. As I have not installed the product (just received) it is not within
my scope to
comment on it's attributes. However, if it performs up to it's manufactures
expectations, up to their high standards of quality control and customer
satisfaction,
then it should be a winner.

Best

Darc

Wallis, Gavin wrote:

> Anybody have them? As much detail as possible....ramble please :). I'm
going
> to be getting one soon.
>
> -G
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 15:22:46 1999
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To: "Mike Baldwin" <mbaldwin@eecs.tufts.edu>,
"Terry Swift" <tlswift@hotbot.com>,
"Gabriel Estrada" <typhoonzz@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 15:22:16 -0700
From: "Terry Swift" <tlswift@hotbot.com>
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Cc: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com, "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
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I second Gabe's idea of WalMart. Though the only 5 Qt. Jug I've seen there is Castrol Syntec 5-50 (no booing / hissing from the Mobil 1 crowd). That makes it under $3 per qt., whereas the regular 1 quarters go for about $3.60 and Mobil 1 - their new tri-blend- is almost $4. Even saw K-Mart advertising it (On Sale) at $16.

As for the filter, I have no clue - as the Mobil 1 has the anti-drain valve, uses a synthetic (NOT PAPER) filtering media, and the can construction is very good. I've used the K&N as well, which seems to be almost the exact same as the Mobil, but about $1 cheaper. My oil pressure has been MUCH better since swapping over from FRAM.

MTBE - not sure exactly what the name means - me and chemistry never got along real well, but its an additive that CA started using a few years back to reduce smog / emissions. The last year or so, they found significant traces of this chemical in lakes and rivers and the fight is on by environmentalists, etc. to remove it as it is a known carcinogen. Lake Tahoe's levels were increasing at an astounding rate, due to all the vehicular water traffic and no where for it to go.

--

On Wed, 18 Aug 1999 11:14:12 Gabriel Estrada wrote:
>I don't know if you have a Wal-mart near you, but in the Kansas City area I
>found that they have the 5 gallon containers for around $14. For the most
>part, it is never cheap, but by stopping and adding, you can actually get 6
>quarts individually for about $3 less than by getting it in the sixpacks.
>Go figure, you are paying $3 for a nice little box
>Gabe Estrada
>94 Pearl Yellow 3000 GT VR-4
>92 Gmc Typhoon
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Mike Baldwin <mbaldwin@eecs.tufts.edu>
>To: Terry Swift <tlswift@hotbot.com>
>Cc: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>; Bob Forrest <bf@bobforrest.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 10:29 AM
>Subject: Re: Team3S: Gas & Oil Level
>
>
>> What is MTBE?
>>
>> Also, do you know what the other fellow who said that the Mobil 1 filter
>> was "lacking something" was talking about?
>>
>> I've compared diagrams of Mobil 1 and other filters and it looks like
>> everything is in place.
>>
>> mb
>>
>> PS Spent almost $30 to change my oil - in just supplies! If anyone knows
>> of somewhere cheap I can pick up Mobil 1 near Boston, please advise.
>>
>> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>


HotBot - Search smarter.
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 15:59:12 1999
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From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <19990817221017.1323.qmail@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RPS Turbo Carbon Clutch
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 15:57:03 -0700
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> Recall? When was RPS going to contact the other people involved
> with the group purchase of substandard TC clutches.
> Can I send mine back to have it replaced with the "new and improved"
> disc? Any one have Robs direct #?
====================================================

Ditto --- I was about to ask the group what the situation was with the
clutches. I have not installed mine and was holding off until I get my
tranny replaced. Was this a general recall or a specific unit recall.
I have no desire to install it and then find out it is defective

Jim Berry

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 15:59:35 1999
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From: Todd Leveck <todd.leveck@hyattdiecast.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Where is coolant level sensor?
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 15:55:07 -0700
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Are you sure this is not your windshield washer reservoir light, indicating
a low
fluid condition?

todd
93 vr4


-----Original Message-----
From: Klusmanp@aol.com [mailto:Klusmanp@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 7:28 PM
To:
Subject: Team3S: Where is coolant level sensor?


Going around a sharp my coolant low level light flickers - hard right turns
only. I added coolant to the reservoir - no change. Will it take a few
warm-up/cool-down cycles to draw the new coolant into the radiator/engine
cooling system? Do I have a sensor about to fritz? Where is the sensor -
engine block? radiator? bottom of the reservoir?

Thanks for any info I can get!

Paul Klusman
'91 VR4
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 16:07:06 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "Michael Reiss" <michael_reiss@hotmail.com>,
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RPS Turbo Carbon Clutch
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>Recall? When was RPS going to contact the other people involved
>with the group purchase of substandard TC clutches.
>Can I send mine back to have it replaced with the "new and improved"
>disc? Any one have Robs direct #?

Ok, there is an important part Darcy left out in his post.

We and only 1 or 2 others have been the last ones that got the clutches
shipped. The others who got their clutches received parts out of an earlier,
good production. Ours came later from the newer production where they made a
mistake (Darcy explained this already). Out of the same production line,
some Supra guys got their clutch, installed it and immediatly runned into
problems. Rob acted quickly when he found out the problem and we have been
informed by AccelleratedAcc. to check the stuf.f Unfortunately, Darc had it
then already in the car and mine where somewhere on the Atlantic Ocean.

I understand that you and others are now worried about the clutch but Rob
said that the first sent series are ok. If you still feel worried please
contact either Acc.Acc. (way too long name) or Rob from RPS directly. Phone
numbers can be get directly from their homepages (RPS has a link on my $$$
page)

Sorry for the confusing !

Roger
93'3000GT TT


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 16:27:45 1999
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From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
To: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RPS Turbo Carbon Clutch
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:31:24 -0500
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But let me tell all of you how much fun it is to install a clutch that slips
the first time out...(twice now)


I would have liked a "notice" about my defective clutch up front.

I'm just glad RPS stands behind their products.

Brad
Check out my home page: http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com ICQ# 3612682

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Jim Berry
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 5:57 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: RPS Turbo Carbon Clutch


> Recall? When was RPS going to contact the other people involved
> with the group purchase of substandard TC clutches.
> Can I send mine back to have it replaced with the "new and improved"
> disc? Any one have Robs direct #?
====================================================

Ditto --- I was about to ask the group what the situation was with the
clutches. I have not installed mine and was holding off until I get my
tranny replaced. Was this a general recall or a specific unit recall.
I have no desire to install it and then find out it is defective

Jim Berry

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 16:27:44 1999
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From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
To: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RPS Turbo Carbon Clutch
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:31:24 -0500
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The "production time" of the clutches had to be pretty large. I received
my clutch at least 3 months before anyone started talking about group
purchase.

Exactly how big of a production run are we talking here?



Brad
Check out my home page: http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com ICQ# 3612682

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of R.G.
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 6:05 PM
To: Michael Reiss; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: RPS Turbo Carbon Clutch

>Recall? When was RPS going to contact the other people involved
>with the group purchase of substandard TC clutches.
>Can I send mine back to have it replaced with the "new and improved"
>disc? Any one have Robs direct #?

Ok, there is an important part Darcy left out in his post.

We and only 1 or 2 others have been the last ones that got the clutches
shipped. The others who got their clutches received parts out of an earlier,
good production. Ours came later from the newer production where they made a
mistake (Darcy explained this already). Out of the same production line,
some Supra guys got their clutch, installed it and immediatly runned into
problems. Rob acted quickly when he found out the problem and we have been
informed by AccelleratedAcc. to check the stuf.f Unfortunately, Darc had it
then already in the car and mine where somewhere on the Atlantic Ocean.

I understand that you and others are now worried about the clutch but Rob
said that the first sent series are ok. If you still feel worried please
contact either Acc.Acc. (way too long name) or Rob from RPS directly. Phone
numbers can be get directly from their homepages (RPS has a link on my $$$
page)

Sorry for the confusing !

Roger
93'3000GT TT


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http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 16:30:19 1999
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Group;

I heard today from a friend who had just installed the new
"improved" SAVC-R. He got it in a Group Order that was cheaper
by $30 than what I paid for my SAVC-R in my Group Order just a
short while back. Mine is not the new improved just released
model. But, hey, mine works very well, and I'm happy. If I
continue to compare, I'll likely not be as happy. Some things in
life are just this way...so "BE HAPPY"

In the case of the RPS order, some faults were found and
corrected on a small number of orders. Rob did his very best to
make those customers happy. However, the key words are "some
faults" and this does not apply uniformly to every clutch RPS has
ever made. It was apparently only a small run and only a few were
in that run. Rob has contacted those involved and I believe if
you have not been contacted, you have nothing to worry about with
the product you have. Creating a tempest in a teacup is
counterproductive.

Best

Darc

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 16:33:49 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: RPS Turbo Carbon Clutch
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Would anyone that bought the clutch in a TT car do it again, or is there a
better clutch out there to be had.
Tom 91 VR4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 17:01:45 1999
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From: "Pete Ryner" <pryner@ij.net>
To: "Ken Middaugh" <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>, <Klusmanp@aol.com>
Cc: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Minimum brake rotor thickness
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:08:27 -0400
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According to my factory manual the minimum thickness for the front rotors on
a AWD is 28.4mm or 1.12" If you're interested, the rear is 18.4mm or .72"
Pete Ryner
'91 VR4

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Ken Middaugh
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 12:00 PM
To: Klusmanp@aol.com
Cc: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Minimum brake rotor thickness


> Can anybody tell me the minimum thickness for front rotors on a '91 vr4?
I've
> got some at 1.183" Are these too thin to remove material yet?

I think it is 1.250". It may be stamped somewhere on the disk, usually on
the
inside of OEM disks. Perhaps someone with a manual can give specifics.
--
I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 19:32:30 1999
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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:30:55 EDT
Subject: Team3S: Paul Klusman wins turbo-dork award (was where is coolant sensor?)
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Sorry to waste more band width on the subject, but I couldn't help laughing
at myself after seeing 8 or 10 replies to my cooland level sensor question.

...uhhhh ...gee that, uhhh ...windshield washer fluid light kind
of looks like a ...ummm ... coolant level light .... heh
...heh.

Guess I'll double check the ol' O W N E R 'S M A N U A L !!!! next
time.

But thanks for all the kind replies :)

Paul Klusman
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 20:07:58 1999
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From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
To: <TJHTAX@aol.com>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RPS Turbo Carbon Clutch
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:11:45 -0500
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As irritating as it is to me to do things "more than once" for the simple
fact due to the way I was handled as a customer, I will be putting the new
RPS clutch in my car.

For the money, I don't think there is a better clutch.


Brad
Check out my home page: http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com ICQ# 3612682

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of TJHTAX@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 6:33 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: RPS Turbo Carbon Clutch

Would anyone that bought the clutch in a TT car do it again, or is there a
better clutch out there to be had.
Tom 91 VR4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 20:10:35 1999
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From: "Palamara, Peter" <pala@gwl.com>
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Subject: RE: Team3S: RPS Turbo Carbon Clutch
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I'll stick with my centerforce. Great clutch and lasts and lasts as long as
my car runs :)

92 3000 GTO S.C.
Soon to be exactly what the plates say :)
Plates (HIPRESR)
1-800-888-gwla x4733


-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Bedell [mailto:bbedell@austin.rr.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 9:12 PM
To: TJHTAX@aol.com; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: RPS Turbo Carbon Clutch


As irritating as it is to me to do things "more than once" for the simple
fact due to the way I was handled as a customer, I will be putting the new
RPS clutch in my car.

For the money, I don't think there is a better clutch.


Brad
Check out my home page: http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com ICQ# 3612682

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of TJHTAX@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 6:33 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: RPS Turbo Carbon Clutch

Would anyone that bought the clutch in a TT car do it again, or is there a
better clutch out there to be had.
Tom 91 VR4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 20:23:02 1999
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Brad Bedell wrote:

> As irritating as it is to me to do things "more than once", for the simple
> fact due to the way I was handled as a customer, I will be putting the new
> RPS clutch in my car.
>
> For the money, I don't think there is a better clutch.

Brad;;

Ditto that. After all the heat I endured with my posting, I'm happy to see that I am not
the only one who will be doing things twice, and happy to be doing it. RPS has been
stand up as far as I am concerned, and, they are obviously motivated to be the
leading edge in clutch performance, design, and production.

Darc




For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 17 20:29:17 1999
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Brad Bedell wrote:

> As irritating as it is to me to do things "more than once",
for the simple
> fact due to the way I was handled as a customer, I will be
putting the new
> RPS clutch in my car.
>
> For the money, I don't think there is a better clutch.

Brad;

Ditto that. After all the heat I endured with my posting, I'm
happy
to see that I am not
the only one who will be doing things twice, and happy to be
doing
it. RPS has been
stand up as far as I am concerned, but, they are obviously
motivated to be the
leading edge in clutch performance, design, and production.

Darc






For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 18 07:48:39 1999
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From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Stillen Downpipe
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:48:15 CDT
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Hey everyone,

I just got a Stillen catalog yesterday. As I was thumbing threw it, I ran
across their new downpipe for our cars. It replaces the front pre-cat,
downpipe and main cat. This looks like a good solution for people looking
to do all of these. The new Apex Motorsports (
http://www.apexvr4.com/vr4dawg/index.html ) sells this unit for $399. That
seems like a good price for something like this. Just wanted to pass along
some info.

I went to the drag strip on Sunday with my Water Injection installed. I
still couldn't break into the 12s. My best time was 13.11 seconds and my
best speed was 105.9 mph. I think I'm losing boost through the stock BOV.
I think it might be time to buy a 1g DSM BOV. It sure is nice to run over
17psi on the street on pump gas though. ;)

Happy boosting,
Curt,
95 R/T TT --> 13.11 @ 105.9 mph
96 GSX --> 14.49 @ 92.9 mph
and author of Minnesota 3/S at: http://www.mn3s.org


_______________________________________________________________
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 18 08:12:03 1999
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Reply-To: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Losing boost (was: Stillen Downpipe)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:10:54 +0200
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>I went to the drag strip on Sunday with my Water Injection installed. I
>still couldn't break into the 12s. My best time was 13.11 seconds and my
>best speed was 105.9 mph. I think I'm losing boost through the stock BOV.
>I think it might be time to buy a 1g DSM BOV.

Hmm, but you are reading 17psi of boost, do you ?
Also, have you already tried a smaller water nozzle ? It's possible to
"overcool" the chamber by delivering too much water. This causes a steal in
power as there is too much that can't be burnt. Also I'd highly interested
in seeing some comparable temp measures like Brad and myself wrote down.
Have you a chance to install two nozzles of half the current size to install
them in different locations ?

Later
Roger
93'3000GT TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 18 09:46:18 1999
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From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Losing boost (was: Stillen Downpipe)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 11:45:54 CDT
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I've got the .25mm nozzle in there. From all of John's testing he
determined that this one was the best for our engine. The peak boost was
around 1.2 to 1.25 kg/cm2 But the sustained boost was more like 1.10. And
that was with the Blitz maxed out. I think a new BOV will help. And I want
to go with the DSM 1g because I don't want my car to stumble or die during
daily driving. I've heard a lot of stories about aftermarket ones doing
that. But I did discover my T-connector came undone that goes to my
Autometer boost gauge. I noticed this after my third run at the strip. And
I'm not sure if this was a problem during my testing on Friday. I'll do
more testing tonight.

Does anyone have an aftermarket BOV (Blitz, Apex, Greddy, HKS) that doesn't
cause odd side effects like stumbling or the engine dying??

just wondering,
Curt


>From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
>Reply-To: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
>To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Subject: Team3S: Losing boost (was: Stillen Downpipe)
>Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:10:54 +0200
>
> >I went to the drag strip on Sunday with my Water Injection installed. I
> >still couldn't break into the 12s. My best time was 13.11 seconds and my
> >best speed was 105.9 mph. I think I'm losing boost through the stock
>BOV.
> >I think it might be time to buy a 1g DSM BOV.
>
>Hmm, but you are reading 17psi of boost, do you ?
>Also, have you already tried a smaller water nozzle ? It's possible to
>"overcool" the chamber by delivering too much water. This causes a steal in
>power as there is too much that can't be burnt. Also I'd highly interested
>in seeing some comparable temp measures like Brad and myself wrote down.
>Have you a chance to install two nozzles of half the current size to
>install
>them in different locations ?
>
>Later
>Roger
>93'3000GT TT
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>


_______________________________________________________________
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 18 11:38:05 1999
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From: "Bob Rand" <rtr@vnet.net>
To: <Stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Welding Tranny Case
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:38:38 -0400
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Hey Guys, I have a spare tranny, but; the case is broken at the motor
mount.
Need some advice from those that have experience with welding.

Can the case be welded? I'm not sure what kind of metal it is or what
would be used to repair it. Sure would like to save it if possible.

Bob
93 Stealth TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 18 11:49:24 1999
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From: "Palamara, Peter" <pala@gwl.com>
To: Stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: TRUE RICE!!!
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:44:07 -0600
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You gotta check this out!

http://hybrid.honda-perf.org/alley/messages/8876.shtml

92 3000 GTO S.C.
Soon to be exactly what the plates say :)
Plates (HIPRESR)
1-800-888-gwla x4733

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 18 12:18:09 1999
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Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:29:11 -0500
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From: Wayne Hietala <wala@hypertech-inc.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Welding Tranny Case
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Bob,
90% of the 3000gt trannys that come from junkyards have been welded in that
same location. Almost all 3/s's that have been hit in the front (including
mine) break at that mount. They can be sucsesfully repaired if you have all
the pieces. The best way to do it is to fasten the pieces to the mount,
then weld it back to the case, That way, all 3 bolt holes will line up.
Also, make sure all loose pieces are out of the tranny before running it. I
havent had any problems with mine since it was put back together.

Wayne


At 01:38 PM 8/18/99 , Bob Rand wrote:
>Hey Guys, I have a spare tranny, but; the case is broken at the motor
>mount.
>Need some advice from those that have experience with welding.
>
>Can the case be welded? I'm not sure what kind of metal it is or what
>would be used to repair it. Sure would like to save it if possible.
>
>Bob
>93 Stealth TT


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 18 14:51:39 1999
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From: "Carlos Q" <pir8ska@shadow.net>
To: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>,
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Losing boost
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:58:20 -0400
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I have a GReddy type-s bov in my 92 vr4 and it has caused me no problems...
however, I have heard that you can't use bov's that vent to atmosphere in
the 95 and up models. anyone with a little more technical flavor want to
jump in on this discussion?

Carlos

-----Original Message-----
From: Curt Gendron <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Losing boost (was: Stillen Downpipe)


>I've got the .25mm nozzle in there. From all of John's testing he
>determined that this one was the best for our engine. The peak boost was
>around 1.2 to 1.25 kg/cm2 But the sustained boost was more like 1.10. And
>that was with the Blitz maxed out. I think a new BOV will help. And I
want
>to go with the DSM 1g because I don't want my car to stumble or die during
>daily driving. I've heard a lot of stories about aftermarket ones doing
>that. But I did discover my T-connector came undone that goes to my
>Autometer boost gauge. I noticed this after my third run at the strip.
And
>I'm not sure if this was a problem during my testing on Friday. I'll do
>more testing tonight.
>
>Does anyone have an aftermarket BOV (Blitz, Apex, Greddy, HKS) that doesn't
>cause odd side effects like stumbling or the engine dying??
>
>just wondering,
>Curt
>
>
>>From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
>>Reply-To: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
>>To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>>Subject: Team3S: Losing boost (was: Stillen Downpipe)
>>Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:10:54 +0200
>>
>> >I went to the drag strip on Sunday with my Water Injection installed. I
>> >still couldn't break into the 12s. My best time was 13.11 seconds and
my
>> >best speed was 105.9 mph. I think I'm losing boost through the stock
>>BOV.
>> >I think it might be time to buy a 1g DSM BOV.
>>
>>Hmm, but you are reading 17psi of boost, do you ?
>>Also, have you already tried a smaller water nozzle ? It's possible to
>>"overcool" the chamber by delivering too much water. This causes a steal
in
>>power as there is too much that can't be burnt. Also I'd highly interested
>>in seeing some comparable temp measures like Brad and myself wrote down.
>>Have you a chance to install two nozzles of half the current size to
>>install
>>them in different locations ?
>>
>>Later
>>Roger
>>93'3000GT TT
>>
>>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>>http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 18 15:10:25 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>,
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Losing boost (was: Stillen Downpipe)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 00:09:09 +0200
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>I've got the .25mm nozzle in there.

Hmm, I'm running a 0.4mm and 0.5mm jet and still are getting knock !

>The peak boost was around 1.2 to 1.25 kg/cm2 But the sustained boost
> was more like 1.10. And that was with the Blitz maxed out.
> I think a new BOV will help.

Interesting ! I was able to get 1.34 kg/cm2 with G36/R60

>And I want to go with the DSM 1g because I don't want my car to
>stumble or die during daily driving.

I had the HKS SBOV on the car. I then felt a little "nad" feeling at low
bosot when I lift the throttle a little. I then wanted to adjust it and
everything got worser. It's not easy to set up but if done properly I don't
see a problem with a twin-chamber BOV.

> I've heard a lot of stories about aftermarket ones doing that.

Especially the single-chamber ones !

> But I did discover my T-connector came undone that goes to my
>Autometer boost gauge. I noticed this after my third run at the strip.
And
>I'm not sure if this was a problem during my testing on Friday. I'll do
>more testing tonight.

I just runned 1.09kg/cm2 and got some hesitation tonight ! This is where I
wish to have a black box in my car !

>Does anyone have an aftermarket BOV (Blitz, Apex, Greddy, HKS) that doesn't
>cause odd side effects like stumbling or the engine dying??

As said, the twin chambers do nothing bad to the driveability. It's always a
tune-in problem.

Regards
Roger
93'3000GT TT


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 18 15:28:45 1999
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Message-ID: <37BB3383.5FDD5034@richmond.infi.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 18:28:19 -0400
From: Kermit Burroughs <kermitb@richmond.infi.net>
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Curt Gendron wrote:

> I think a new BOV will help. And I want
> to go with the DSM 1g because I don't want my car to stumble or die
during
> daily driving. I've heard a lot of stories about aftermarket ones
doing
> that.

I try to follow threads that involve this because my car has a weird
stumble around
2800-3100 rpm. Only in that rpm range. It isn't bad, and at WOT it
doesn't _seem_ to
happen. I do have the Blitz BOV on, and, quite likely, this didn't
happen until after
the install. Hard to remember actually. I've never really read anything

definitive, but
it could have happened before I was on the list. Is this really common?

Thanks.
--
**************
Kermit Burroughs
kermitb@richmond.infi.net




For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 18 19:51:06 1999
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Reply-To: <ryanp@crcwnet.com>
From: "Ryan Peterson" <ryanp@crcwnet.com>
To: "Stealth List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>,
"Starnet Stealth list" <stealth@starnet.net>
Subject: Team3S: I need dimensions FAST
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:51:38 -0700
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My car is 150 miles away getting painted, so I can't do this myself. But I
need the following dimensions by tomorrow. If anyone can help, please email
me directly mailto:ryanp@crcwnet.com

1) Wheelbase, (front to rear)
2) Distance outside wheel face to wheel face (left to right)
3) distance between the underbody weld flange each side of car (left to
right). You know, where the scissor jack mounts?

thanks a bunch
Ryan

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 18 20:11:57 1999
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From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
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"Starnet Stealth list" <stealth@starnet.net>
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Subject: Team3S: Re: I need dimensions FAST
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 20:09:45 -0700
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> My car is 150 miles away getting painted, so I can't do this myself. But I
> need the following dimensions by tomorrow. If anyone can help, please email
> me directly mailto:ryanp@crcwnet.com
>
> 1) Wheelbase, (front to rear)
> 2) Distance outside wheel face to wheel face (left to right)
> 3) distance between the underbody weld flange each side of car (left to
> right). You know, where the scissor jack mounts?


1) 97.2"
2) 72.4"
3) not a clue --- 61.4" is the tread width, looks like the center line of the wheel.
It looks about right for the width of the flange. I dont have my car available to
measure it.

Jim Berry

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 18 20:12:14 1999
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From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: To flip the wing or not?
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Ok road racers:
We all know our cars push at very high cornering speeds.
As I understand it, this is because the rear sticks better than the front,
so the front plows.

It seems to me that one way to even things out would be to NOT put up the
rear wing -- we only get about 100 pounds of downforce anyway, but this
would make the rear a teeny bit lighter and lessen the push.

Any thoughts on this? Wing up or down? What would not having the air dam
down do in front?
Is this a balanced system?

BTW, I decided not to install the Ground Control suspension yet. I'm
running at Blackhawk Farms this weekend, the first time out with new
Porterfield brakes and new Yoko 032R tires. I don't like to change too many
things at one time, so I'll wait until later to change the springs.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 18 21:08:18 1999
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From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Water injection opinions (was Losing Boost)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 23:07:53 CDT
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Roger,

.4mm and .5mm jets might be too much water. If spraying too much water, it
won't atomize, and therefore won't be effective. Another Minn 3/Ser has
installed the Spearco unit on his 92 VR4. And he has a datalogger. On his
intial runs with the .25mm nozzle, he got no knock what so ever. And him
and John are doing more testing as I speak.

As far as the max boost on the stock turbos is still a mystery to me. John
saw a peak of 1.39 with his 9Bs in third gear. Of course you have the 13G,
so you should be able to boost higher. Is 1.34 the most you could produce
with the 13Gs? The leaking BOV is the only think I can think of for the
reason that I can't boost past 1.28 kg/cm2.

I think there was another person on this list who recently posted about
installing water injection. And if I recall, he got about the same boost as
I did. hmmm...

later,
Curt,
95 R/T TT --> 13.11 @ 105.9 mph
96 GSX --> 14.49 @ 92.9 mph
and author of Minnesota 3/S at: http://www.mn3s.org


>From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
>To: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>,
><stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Subject: Re: Team3S: Losing boost (was: Stillen Downpipe)
>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 00:09:09 +0200
>
> >I've got the .25mm nozzle in there.
>
>Hmm, I'm running a 0.4mm and 0.5mm jet and still are getting knock !
>





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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 18 22:11:57 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: I need dimensions FAST
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Ryan:

The distance from outside of the flange to opposite side is
55-7/8", +/- 1/16", measured at the jack notches, front &
rear.

Rich
-----------------------------------------
Jim Berry wrote:

<snip>
> 1) 97.2"
> 2) 72.4"
<snip>
--
"If you dig it, do it.
If you really dig it, do it twice."
-- Jim Croce (1943-1973)
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 19 00:43:14 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Water injection opinions
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 09:41:25 +0200
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>.4mm and .5mm jets might be too much water. If spraying too much water, it
>won't atomize, and therefore won't be effective.

This is not the problem due to the high pressure (6.5 bars water pressure at
the moment). The water atomizes very well.

I got now a full set of nozzles from ERL to test the setup. I'm currently
running two jets, intercooling and detonation control but I'll do some tests
on Saturday with only one jet to control the detonation.

>installed the Spearco unit on his 92 VR4. And he has a datalogger. On his
>intial runs with the .25mm nozzle, he got no knock what so ever.

It would be very interesting to compare the logs ! Running a back-to-back
test at 15.5 psi without and with the WIS (like a 1/4 mile run, up to
6000-6500 in 2nd and 3rd)

>As far as the max boost on the stock turbos is still a mystery to me. John
>saw a peak of 1.39 with his 9Bs in third gear. Of course you have the 13G,
>so you should be able to boost higher. Is 1.34 the most you could produce
>with the 13Gs? The leaking BOV is the only think I can think of for the
>reason that I can't boost past 1.28 kg/cm2.

This was boost cut that kicked in these times. The only thing I can admit is
that my stupidness cranked up boost so high, the peak showed ....
1.47kg/cm2. Any question about killing the engine ? I'm sure the stock BPV
cannot handle that high boost and it always leaks a little due to the small
hole in it (smoothens the operation).

>I think there was another person on this list who recently posted about
>installing water injection. And if I recall, he got about the same boost
as
>I did. hmmm...

Curt, I guess we can't compare the nozzle size as it is different as well as
pressure and flow is. I will ask ERL about a possible pressure drop. Any
bend in the IC piping causes loss in pressure and increased heat. The water
stream sprayed out of the nozzles may also cause a drop as the air acts as
the transporter fro the water. This may cause a drop theoretically.

Keep us updated and if possible email me the logs to compare.

Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT



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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 19 00:56:21 1999
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: "Bob Rand" <rtr@vnet.net>, <Stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Welding Tranny Case
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 00:57:49 -0700
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It can be welded by a competent and experienced aluminum welder. Make sure
they put the thing in a jig and do it right (properly cooled and placed
etc.) or it could cause further stresses which may cause grief down the
road. I had one welded on the bell housing with good success.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Bob Rand
> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 11:39 AM
> To: Stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Team3S: Welding Tranny Case
>
>
> Hey Guys, I have a spare tranny, but; the case is broken at the motor
> mount.
> Need some advice from those that have experience with welding.
>
> Can the case be welded? I'm not sure what kind of metal it is or what
> would be used to repair it. Sure would like to save it if possible.
>
> Bob
> 93 Stealth TT
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 19 04:58:41 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water injection opinions (was Losing Boost)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:58:18 +0200
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>.4mm and .5mm jets might be too much water. If spraying too much water, it
>won't atomize, and therefore won't be effective. Another Minn 3/Ser has
>installed the Spearco unit on his 92 VR4. And he has a datalogger. On his
>intial runs with the .25mm nozzle, he got no knock what so ever. And him
>and John are doing more testing as I speak.

Important : My test runs are made with ONLY pure, crystal clear water from
the alps. No Methanol mixture, therefore there is no additional stuff that
can be burnt.

I therefore recommend doing the tests with and without the juice as I think
it's important to know the difference. If one is running out of the mixture
and only has water avilable (and this is almsot evyrwhere) he should know if
the lack of Methanol does something bad to the engine then ! It wouldn't
surprise me to see additional knock like on my runs.

Also I really need the injectors times to compare. As the WOT values are
just taken from the table the methanol seems to be more against the knock
than only the water. This is why I'm running bigger jets as I have problems
to find Methanol here :-((

PS: ERL just did a 3.2l V8 Biturbo 4-door sedan Maserati. The bullet is fed
with two 0.6mm water jets and controlled by the same system I have with a
water pressure of 7bars. The mapping of the curve allowed to push the
pressure up to 1.5bars (damn big, great turbos) Please don't ask if this is
a "Killer" sleeper that keepss any Porsche Biturbo and our cars way behind
(gulp).

Regards
Roger
93'3000GT TT

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 19 06:27:14 1999
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From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water injection opinions (was Losing Boost)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 08:26:51 CDT
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I've been using either distilled water or a mixture of water and rubbing
alcohol. Rubbing alcohol is a 70/30 mixture of Isopropal (sp?) and water.
John felt that this burned well. You should be able to find this stuff in
stores in Switzerland. I imagine its a pain to climb a mountain just to
fill your tank. :) hehe.

John has also experimented with using HEET. This is a 50/50 mixture of
isopropal and water. But if you don't live in the frozen tundra of
Minnesota or other cold climates you'll have no idea what HEET is. ;) Its
used to help start cars in the winter.

If I can get the logs from the datalogger, I'll pass them Roger's way.

later,
Curt


>From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
>Reply-To: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
>To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Subject: Re: Team3S: Water injection opinions (was Losing Boost)
>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:58:18 +0200
>Important : My test runs are made with ONLY pure, crystal clear water from
>the alps. No Methanol mixture, therefore there is no additional stuff that
>can be burnt.
>
>I therefore recommend doing the tests with and without the juice as I think
>it's important to know the difference. If one is running out of the mixture
>and only has water avilable (and this is almsot evyrwhere) he should know
>if
>the lack of Methanol does something bad to the engine then ! It wouldn't
>surprise me to see additional knock like on my runs.


_______________________________________________________________
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 19 06:58:33 1999
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From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Water injection opinions (was Losing Boost)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 08:57:04 -0500
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Far be it for me to debate my esteemed colleague, but there are two types of
HEET sold here in the states. The first is HEET, which is about 90%
Methyl-Alcohol, the other 10% I am unsure of, but there is NO water in it.
The second type of HEET is IsoHEET. IsoHEET is 100% Isopropyl-Alcohol (to
the best of my knowledge), again no water). HEET of either type is commonly
poured into the gas tank of vehicles in cold climates, because both types of
alcohol mentioned above do a great job of absorbing water. This is
desirable to keep the fuel lines from freezing. I noticed that when I used
either of two, the car ran a little smoother under low boost conditions, as
the alcohol helps to burn the water.

Addition of alcohol to the water mix of a water injected car, will take away
from the water injection's combustion chamber cooling property. This is
because, much like gasoline, the latent heat of evaporation of alcohol is
not as high as water.

Want maximum cooling, use 100% water. Add alcohol to do two things. One,
help the car burn the water (a concern with our crappy ignition systems).
Two, keep the water from freezing in the winter, (better run a 50/50 or
70/30 mix of alcohol/water).

Not that I'm trying to be a smart-ass though, Curt. :-)

John Basol
System Management Services


-----Original Message-----
From: Curt Gendron [SMTP:curt_gendron@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 8:27 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water injection opinions (was Losing
Boost)

I've been using either distilled water or a mixture of water and
rubbing
alcohol. Rubbing alcohol is a 70/30 mixture of Isopropal (sp?) and
water.
John felt that this burned well. You should be able to find this
stuff in
stores in Switzerland. I imagine its a pain to climb a mountain
just to
fill your tank. :) hehe.

John has also experimented with using HEET. This is a 50/50 mixture
of
isopropal and water. But if you don't live in the frozen tundra of
Minnesota or other cold climates you'll have no idea what HEET is.
;) Its
used to help start cars in the winter.

If I can get the logs from the datalogger, I'll pass them Roger's
way.

later,
Curt


>From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
>Reply-To: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
>To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Subject: Re: Team3S: Water injection opinions (was Losing Boost)
>Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:58:18 +0200
>Important : My test runs are made with ONLY pure, crystal clear
water from
>the alps. No Methanol mixture, therefore there is no additional
stuff that
>can be burnt.
>
>I therefore recommend doing the tests with and without the juice as
I think
>it's important to know the difference. If one is running out of the
mixture
>and only has water avilable (and this is almsot evyrwhere) he
should know
>if
>the lack of Methanol does something bad to the engine then ! It
wouldn't
>surprise me to see additional knock like on my runs.


_______________________________________________________________
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 19 07:23:08 1999
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From: Joshua <joshua@unconundrum.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Question about towing
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:22:43 -0400
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OK my friend just got a vr-4 and he was driving it and it started stalling.
He pulled over and called the towing company to tow his car to the garage he
uses. I was at the garage when the brought the car there. The problem is
the car was on a tow truck where the front two wheels were locked up in the
front while the rear two tires where on the ground. I know for a fact that
he told them it was 4-wheel drive and I told him I believe they hafta put it
on a flat bed. Can anyone tell me if I am correct? Could the tow truck
have caused more problems? If so what? I would assume the tow company
would be insured for their mess up?
Thanks
Joshua
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 19 07:43:06 1999
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Joshua;

You're absolutely correct with your advice. Never tow these AWD's by raising the front
or the rear wheels and towing. This will result in deterioration to the viscous
coupling with likely mechanical problems/failure of this feature. Damage can also
result as heat damage to the rear bushing of the transfer if the rear is lifted and
towed in a normal towing manner.

Best

Darc

Joshua wrote:

> OK my friend just got a vr-4 and he was driving it and it started stalling.
> He pulled over and called the towing company to tow his car to the garage he
> uses. I was at the garage when the brought the car there. The problem is
> the car was on a tow truck where the front two wheels were locked up in the
> front while the rear two tires where on the ground. I know for a fact that
> he told them it was 4-wheel drive and I told him I believe they hafta put it
> on a flat bed. Can anyone tell me if I am correct? Could the tow truck
> have caused more problems? If so what? I would assume the tow company
> would be insured for their mess up?
> Thanks
> Joshua
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 19 13:48:54 1999
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Josh,

Darcy is absolutely right ! Never ever should our cars be towed by either the
front or rear wheels locked. As already said, the viscous coupling will overheat
but even more the transfer case will be not happy at all. The owners manual is
telling the way how the car has to be towed.

Hope your friends car will not get any damage due to this.

Roger
93'3000GT TT

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 19 16:09:30 1999
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To: "Ian Marks" <ianmarks@earthlink.net>,
"stealth-3000" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:09:24 -600
Subject: Team3S: Re: Team3s: 1st autorcross - techniques?
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>One of
>>the quickest was little Plymouth Neon.
>
>Musta been an SCCA autocross. They love to cater to little shitbox cars.

SCCA Autocross does not necessarily cater to anything. If you want to see how
you performed vs the Neon look at the PAX numbers. PAX is where your time and
the Neon's time are adjusted to account for differences in car power, steering,
etc. Compare your time with those in your class, don't worry about the Neon's
and other 'shitbox cars' until you start beating their times.

We have several Regional Champion Neons that we race with ... my husband and
I have both beat them in our VR-4. We've also lost. As you gain skill you tend
to get even better ... a stock VR-4 races in AS, a stock Neon is DS. So realistically
your car has a better chance to be quicker. Don't be suprised when Neon's and
Miata's and MR2 Turbos win... take those as encouragement to do better. When
you are good enough (or they are BAD enough!) you start to beat them ALL. I
have and you can.

One thing I found is to GO LIKE HECK when you have a straight... brake late
and take advantage of the AWD/AWS in the turns. You will be amazed at what you
can do. I've had drivers of MOD Cars borrow my car when theirs blew up... they
LOVED the VR-4. In general you can usually put the car in 2nd and go... you
won't get a chance to top off second and you usually don't have to downshift
to 1st unless it is an absolute hairpin. Take time to walk the course with the
local experts before racing. They can give you pointers on the line to run and
how to approach options slolams (sp?) etc. Take advantage of the incredible
launches you can get.

I hope this helps... stick with it and you can get good... even start beating
the 'shitbox' cars :)

Nissa
95 VR-4



Don't mess in the affairs of dragons.
For you are crunchy and go good with ketchup.
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 19 18:37:16 1999
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Message-ID: <007e01beeaac$63540dc0$4fe586cd@sch>
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: "Ron Thompson" <rtetetet@earthlink.net>,
"Merritt" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Eibach Springs; Installation nightmare; Help!
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:34:53 -0700
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Nightmare Part I:
I brought in my '94 Stealth to my Dodge dealer to have Eibach Pro-Kit
springs installed. The service manager said he didn't know what to
charge, but it was the same amount of work as replacing the
MacPhersons, so that's what they'd charge me (roughly $380, including
alignment). I got a diagram from Ron Thompson and instructions how to
enlarge the mounting holes (that being necessary to bring the
alignment back to spec) and I shared that with the service mgr. The
next day he called and told me there were FOUR springs (duh) and he
had only quoted me price for 2! I told him that I'd gotten a price
from a small shop in town for all 4 for $250 (+ alignment), but I used
his dealership since they were experienced with Stealths. I
reluctantly gave him the OK to go ahead... At the end of the day he
called again and said that they had worked ALL day trying to get them
installed, with no luck and he 'just wanted to make sure his tech got
paid for his time' but would "roll back" the final price. His call
made me "edgy" so I checked the Eibach site, which says it should take
1.5hrs for the fronts, 1.3hrs for the rears, total 2.8hrs. But I'm
afraid to see what his final bill will be... QUESTIONS: What have you
guys paid to have Eibachs installed??? How much more for alignment?

Nightmare Part II:
I thought I'd be picking up the car today, but the service mgr told me
that while removing the eccentric bolt that adjusts the lower control
arm it broke off! They were waiting for an overnight delivery, but it
still hadn't arrived. He claimed that there was 'extra undercoating'
and that the bolt had been 'over-torqued'. Of course I reminded him
that it either came that way from the factory or was something THEY at
the dealership had previously done, since the car never had any other
work done on it other than in his shop. QUESTIONS: Has anyone else
had experience with these bolts being a problem? Any suggestions?

TIA,

Forrest


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 19 18:55:27 1999
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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:55:09 -0700
To: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
From: Steve Saeedi <saeedi@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Eibach Springs; Installation nightmare; Help!
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At 6:34 PM -0700 8/19/99, Bob Forrest wrote:
>Nightmare Part I:
>I brought in my '94 Stealth to my Dodge dealer to have Eibach Pro-Kit
>springs installed. The service manager said he didn't know what to
>charge, but it was the same amount of work as replacing the
>MacPhersons, so that's what they'd charge me (roughly $380, including
>alignment). I got a diagram from Ron Thompson and instructions how to
>enlarge the mounting holes (that being necessary to bring the
>alignment back to spec) and I shared that with the service mgr. The
>next day he called and told me there were FOUR springs (duh) and he
>had only quoted me price for 2! I told him that I'd gotten a price
>from a small shop in town for all 4 for $250 (+ alignment), but I used
>his dealership since they were experienced with Stealths. I
>reluctantly gave him the OK to go ahead... At the end of the day he
>called again and said that they had worked ALL day trying to get them
>installed, with no luck and he 'just wanted to make sure his tech got
>paid for his time' but would "roll back" the final price. His call
>made me "edgy" so I checked the Eibach site, which says it should take
>1.5hrs for the fronts, 1.3hrs for the rears, total 2.8hrs. But I'm
>afraid to see what his final bill will be... QUESTIONS: What have you
>guys paid to have Eibachs installed??? How much more for alignment?

$250 Eibach installation. (These guys had never worked on Stealths before and quoted me what they would charge for Hondas. Yes! But they spent ALL day on it and were bound by the price they quoted me)

$60 for a 4 wheel alignment.

- Steve

>
>Nightmare Part II:
>I thought I'd be picking up the car today, but the service mgr told me
>that while removing the eccentric bolt that adjusts the lower control
>arm it broke off! They were waiting for an overnight delivery, but it
>still hadn't arrived. He claimed that there was 'extra undercoating'
>and that the bolt had been 'over-torqued'. Of course I reminded him
>that it either came that way from the factory or was something THEY at
>the dealership had previously done, since the car never had any other
>work done on it other than in his shop. QUESTIONS: Has anyone else
>had experience with these bolts being a problem? Any suggestions?
>
>TIA,
>
>Forrest
>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 19 19:46:26 1999
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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:45:46 -0400
From: Ron Thompson <rtetetet@earthlink.net>
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Subject: Team3S: Re: Eibach Springs; Installation nightmare; Help!
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QUESTIONS: What have you
> guys paid to have Eibachs installed??? How much more for alignment?

The time sound right for install that you got from the site, and at
$52 / hr. that would be $160 plus four wheel alignment at about $60
and suspension mods at 2 hrs. add $110. Total $340. I bought mine from
my guy and he put them in for $100.

>
> Nightmare Part II:
QUESTIONS: Has anyone else
> had experience with these bolts being a problem? Any suggestions?

Boy Howdy, that's a 19 mm bolt! I heard them strip them, but break
it??? Well yeah, if you over tighten it. They could have stripped the
head that has the eccentric, it's a little short on the head depth,
and had to cut it off. Their problem either way. It doesn't sound like
the technician is very slick. I wouldn't pay for the inexperience of
the guy. You know they bill you for what the shop manual says it will
take to do a certain job. If they run over it's their fault. If they
under cut it, they don't reduce the price to you. I'd stand hard on
paying more than $350, and that is still high.

Ron
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 19 19:53:19 1999
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From: "Oskar" <swede@pclink.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Eibach Springs; Installation nightmare; Help!
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 21:48:37 -0500
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QUESTIONS: What have you
>guys paid to have Eibachs installed??? How much more for alignment?
>


I had RS*R springs, rotors, pads & stainless brake lines installed on all
for corners for $350. I then took the car to an independent shop for a $65
alignment. They were able to bring it to spec without elongating the holes.
I also had Ron's excellent drawings at hand. I believe the RS*Rs have a
less drop than the Eibachs, but I don't see that this should make a
difference in the price of the installation.

I had two other quotes for the work, both over $800 so I knew I was getting
a good deal. I believe it took them a bit longer than anticipated, but they
stood by their quote and didn't fuzz about it.

I have had shop estimates exceeded on more than one occasion. Whether
verbal or written you can most often get them to stick to the original
estimate. Bob, you have a pretty good case going here. Sure, the manager
claims he quoted you for 2 springs. I don't believe people install lowering
springs in only one end of the car. It is pretty much a clear-cut case that
you do it all around!! The fault is his and he should not expect you to pay
for that. I also find it hard to believe that the shop rate is $380 for 2
springs, that would make it a $600-700 job for four corners. You could
easily follow up on that with another dealer.

Good luck
Oskar
'95 R/T TT

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 19 20:14:57 1999
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Eibach Springs; Installation nightmare; Help!
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 20:16:35 -0700
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> Nightmare Part I:

<snip>
> His call
> made me "edgy" so I checked the Eibach site, which says it should take
> 1.5hrs for the fronts, 1.3hrs for the rears, total 2.8hrs. But I'm
> afraid to see what his final bill will be... QUESTIONS: What have you
> guys paid to have Eibachs installed??? How much more for alignment?

Good Lord. I was quoted $160 by an indpendant alignment shop for
installation of four springs plus an all wheel alignment. Ended up paying
them $200 after post installation negotiation due to a few unforseen
problems due to no fault of their own (dealership has messed up the steering
rack boots -- alignment guys wanted to fix it). They lost $100 on the deal
but we parted ways satisfied.

> Nightmare Part II:

<snip>

QUESTIONS: Has anyone else
> had experience with these bolts being a problem? Any suggestions?

Bolts will break, even big ole 19 mm ones (although rarely -- they probably
got silly with an impact wrench -- morons).

Be prepared for grief, IMO. My car will never see the pavement of a
dealership while I own it. I am done with them. Of the four Mitsu dealers
in the valley I have been burned and completely dissatisfied too many times.
I like the car, the dealerships in my area seem to have chronic moronitis
and incompetent technicians. No, I'm not bitter ;)

Best of luck. Don't take any crap.


Barry

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 19 21:04:29 1999
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From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Eibach Springs; Installation nightmare; Help!
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 21:02:19 -0700
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. At the end of the day he
> called again and said that they had worked ALL day trying to get them
> installed, with no luck and he 'just wanted to make sure his tech got
> paid for his time' but would "roll back" the final price. His call
> made me "edgy" so I checked the Eibach site, which says it should take
> 1.5hrs for the fronts, 1.3hrs for the rears, total 2.8hrs. But I'm
> afraid to see what his final bill will be... QUESTIONS: What have you
> guys paid to have Eibachs installed??? How much more for alignment?
=====================================================

The tech doesn't sound very competent ----- I installed, in my driveway,using
a hydraulic jack, an impact wrench and hand tools the following items in about
6 hours. Ground control caster/camber plate, stainless steel brake lines, paint
the calipers, GAB struts, Ground Control spring perches, checked the camber
with a bubble gage and the toe with a couple of aluminum straight edges.
I took the car to an alignment shop the following day and spent two hours and
$90 setting the alignment and finding out what range of adjustment I now have.
The rear is out of spec. [ I dropped the car 1 1/2" ] so I have to resolve that.

Jim Berry

PS. I lied --- I also used a drill and a pneumatic cut-off tool for the caster/camber
plate and a Matco 24" pry bar for those damn rear shocks .


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 19 21:24:45 1999
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From: "Dg B" <dbretton@hotmail.com>
To: bf@bobforrest.com, stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Eibach Springs; Installation nightmare; Help!
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Hi Bob,
>
>enlarge the mounting holes (that being necessary to bring the
>alignment back to spec) and I shared that with the service mgr.

For Eibach springs, you shouldn't need to elongate the holes at all to bring
the car back into spec. I dropped my car over 1", and NTB managed to put
the fronts back into spec, with no problem.

>The
>next day he called and told me there were FOUR springs (duh) and he
>had only quoted me price for 2! I told him that I'd gotten a price
>from a small shop in town for all 4 for $250 (+ alignment), but I used
>his dealership since they were experienced with Stealths. I
>reluctantly gave him the OK to go ahead... At the end of the day he
>called again and said that they had worked ALL day trying to get them
>installed, with no luck and he 'just wanted to make sure his tech got
>paid for his time' but would "roll back" the final price. His call
>made me "edgy" so I checked the Eibach site, which says it should take
>1.5hrs for the fronts, 1.3hrs for the rears, total 2.8hrs. But I'm
>afraid to see what his final bill will be... QUESTIONS: What have you
>guys paid to have Eibachs installed??? How much more for alignment?

Bob,
I paid $250 in labor to have the 2 front struts replaced, the 2 rear
shocks replaced, all 4 tires replaced, and an alignment. Clearly this was
not a dealership, *but*, it's not that far from reality.
I have a SOHC like you, and I *know* that the struts/shocks are easy to
replace (after doing it with the GAB/Ground Control install).
There is simply no way that they should be charging you more than $400,
including the alignment (and a car wash!).



>
>Nightmare Part II:
>I thought I'd be picking up the car today, but the service mgr told me
>that while removing the eccentric bolt that adjusts the lower control
>arm it broke off! <snip>

QUESTIONS: Has anyone else
>had experience with these bolts being a problem? Any suggestions?

I don't know exactly which bolt this is. However, I do know that the rear
camber adjustment bolt on our 3/S cars tends to be "sticky", and can
sometimes not come free.
However, it was not "over"-torquing that caused the bolt to break, but
rather, some airhead who screwed up in the shop.
I will lay a dollar to a doughnut that they broke the bolt because
they were careless.

My advice: Do not pay any bill above $400.
When you get there, ask them to leave the car up on a lift, and inspect
their work.
Make sure they don't do something stupid, like install the springs upside
down.
Check to make sure that all of the bushings and bump stops are installed,
especially in the REAR! I think there are 3 different rubber bushings/bump
stops on each shock in the rear on your car. If they did not install all of
them and/or not in the right order, all kinds of things can happen, like:
- one side has greater stroke than the other (tilting)
- the shock may bottom out
- the shock could poke out of the top and rip your plastic covers
in the trunk

Hope this helps!

Regards,
Dennis


_______________________________________________________________
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 19 22:08:11 1999
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Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 01:04:40 -0400
From: "J. Stephen Gula" <loco3kgt@creepingdeath.com>
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Hey guys,
for those of you not scared by Bob's recent fiasco w/ the Eibach
springs, I've been told that we can get in on the DSM's Ground Control
Group Discount for the entire unit and we get discounts on the camber
plates. The discount is 20%-25% (i'll be told actual amount tomorrow,
but alteast 20%). If you want in on this please email ME (
loco3kgt@creepingdeath.com ).. all posts to the list regarding getting
in on the discount will be ignored... so unless it's a technical
question, don't ask it :) ..... the following was grabbed from
the site that kept track of those interested in on the DSM GP :

"P.S. Please don't e-mail me with questions like "how much faster will
this make my car" or "what will this do for me." You are not
ready for coil overs if you are asking those types of questions. :)"

that was Dasher's lil note, and I'm ditto on that. Needless to say, I
don't know much of anything about this product other than I'm buying
it.. So going price right now for the $400 unit is roughly $300-$320....
the more people, the greater the chances at getting a higher discount.
Dasher called the GC people and the group purchase has already been
agreed on considering the large number of DSMers in on the deal plus a
3000GT owner (me)... so if you're interested, email me and I'll contact
Dasher.... the discount ends next Wednesday (the 25th) in hopes of
everything being paid for/shipped by the 30TH... so anyone intested
email loco3kgt@creepingdeath.com and tell me _immediately_.. however,
only email me if you are SERIOUS... I don't want to tell Dash I've got 5
buyers to have only 3 pay... that doesn't make me happy. You can
research the Ground Control stuff at http://www.ground-control.com
.....

So lets review what we know :

1) Group discount on Ground Control units.. normally $400 now at about
$300-$320
2) Don't ask me anything technical about these parts. I simply don't
know anything about'em other than whats stated above
3) If you ain't serious, don't bother emailing me unless you can be
influenced to buy.


--Steve "Loco3KGT" Gula


PS... bob.. rich... if this email doesn't make it due to my
incompetency... forward it please.... and then tell me what the prob was
with...
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 19 23:02:39 1999
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From: Errin Humphrey <errin@u.washington.edu>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Eibach Springs; Installation nightmare; Help!
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Bob Forrest wrote:

> alignment back to spec) and I shared that with the service mgr. The
> next day he called and told me there were FOUR springs (duh) and he
> had only quoted me price for 2! I told him that I'd gotten a price
> from a small shop in town for all 4 for $250 (+ alignment), but I used

So he charged you a total of $760 + alignment?! It sounds like
he seriously took you for a ride. Even $380 sounds expensive
for doing all four. Like Jim Berry, it took me about 5 hours total
to swap all four springs (I went to H&R). I was using a friend's
air tools and I rented a widow-maker spring compressor. It was
my first time doing the job, and I was taking me sweet time with
everything. The next time I did springs it took me significantly less
time to do them. I'm surprised it would take supposed Stealth
"specialists" all day to do the job, especially for such a price.

My alignment was done by a local shop for $70, and it was not
necessary to enlarge any mounting holes in order to bring the
alignment back to spec. The H&R's drop about the same amount
as the Eibachs.

> I thought I'd be picking up the car today, but the service mgr told me
> that while removing the eccentric bolt that adjusts the lower control
> arm it broke off!

Hmmm... These bolts were not a problem for me, and they certainly
shouldn't have been a problem for professionals, unless of course
they were being careless with their air tools.

>He claimed that there was 'extra undercoating'
>and that the bolt had been 'over-torqued'.

A Mitsubishi dealership service center broke two of my front wheel
studs while changing my clutch, and they told me the EXACT same
thing. I knew they were lying because I had hand-torqued the bolts
myself, but I was forced to pay them because my car was at their
mercy until I picked it up (it's kind of bad to drive your car away with
only 3 front wheel studs). It makes me angry again just to think about
it, and I really wished I had done the clutch myself.

If I were you, after paying this guy I would hand him a banana and
say "this is for you and your monkey knowledge and your monkey
business with its monkey mechanics and their monkey antics." Then
I would say "THIS is you," and tickle my armpits and do my best
monkey noises, just to drive the point home.

Or something like that,

--Errin Humphrey


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 19 23:39:31 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Eibach Springs; Installation nightmare; Help!
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 08:30:30 +0200
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Bob wrote:
the service mgr told me that while removing the eccentric bolt that adjusts the lower control arm it broke off!
QUESTIONS: Has anyone else had experience with these bolts being a problem?

Hi

I actually did the same thing last sunday! One of the eccentrics snapped right off. Mine broke on the "nut" side, my suggestion is to check on witch side the bolt broke, if it broke on the side with the eccentric washer then they probably used a big wrench on the wrong side of the bolt. And if that's the case then they have done wrong and should pay for the whole thing.

A friend and I changed springs on two VR-4's this weekend and it shall not take more than two houers even if you never have worked on a VR-4 before. (if you have the right tools)

/Mikael Akesson http://www.3000gt.nu



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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 19 23:58:18 1999
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To: "J. Stephen Gula" <loco3kgt@creepingdeath.com>,
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Ground Control Group Purchase
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 08:58:02 +0200
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What's going here ??

The GC GP for the DSM people (and we) is over since some weeks and there
isn't a demand right now. Even more , I haven't received any springs yet !!!
There have been some problems with people and I'm still waiting for the
stuff. Mikael got them this week but I haven't heard anything from them. As
I called GC they said to check this out and calling me back... for sure
nobody called me !

Good luck for everybody... I'm not happy at the moment !

Roger
93'3000GT TT

> for those of you not scared by Bob's recent fiasco w/ the Eibach
>springs, I've been told that we can get in on the DSM's Ground Control
>Group Discount for the entire unit and we get discounts on the camber
>plates. The discount is 20%-25% (i'll be told actual amount tomorrow,
>but alteast 20%). If you want in on this please email ME (

<snip>

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 20 01:42:14 1999
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: "Errin Humphrey" <errin@u.washington.edu>,
"3/S Sirius Mailing List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Eibach Springs; Installation nightmare; Help!
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 00:33:13 -0700
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-----Original Message-----From: Errin Humphrey
<errin@u.washington.edu>

>Bob Forrest wrote:
>> alignment back to spec) and I shared that with the service mgr.
The
>> next day he called and told me there were FOUR springs (duh) and he
>> had only quoted me price for 2! I told him that I'd gotten a price
>> from a small shop in town for all 4 for $250 (+ alignment), but I
used
>
>So he charged you a total of $760 + alignment?! It sounds like
>he seriously took you for a ride. Even $380 sounds expensive
>for doing all four. Like Jim Berry, it took me about 5 hours total
>to swap all four springs (I went to H&R). I was using a friend's
>air tools and I rented a widow-maker spring compressor. It was
>my first time doing the job, and I was taking me sweet time with
>everything. The next time I did springs it took me significantly
less
>time to do them. I'm surprised it would take supposed Stealth
>"specialists" all day to do the job, especially for such a price.


I haven't seen the bill yet... I pick up the car in the morning,
assuming they got a replacement bolt for the one they trashed. The
$380 was an estimate for the front springs and an alignment, and I get
a 10% Team3S discount, or about $340 total. But I thought that was
high even for ALL FOUR! I had an estimate in town from another shop
for $250 plus alignment (I assumed $65), so my thinking was that it
was only $25 more to use the guys who (theoretically) know my car. If
I estimate that $300 was the install part for 2, then $500 for 4 would
be logical, and $80 for alignment is $580... Even with the Team3S 10%
discount, that's still over $500, which is pure extortion, ESPECIALLY
if they try to bang me for additional $$$ for the bolt they broke...

>My alignment was done by a local shop for $70, and it was not
>necessary to enlarge any mounting holes in order to bring the
>alignment back to spec. The H&R's drop about the same amount
>as the Eibachs.


I've heard it both ways from guys on the list, and it appears that a
number of them have had the problem mostly on the rears-- I wouldn't
mind -.1 or -.2 camber, but -1.0 (one guy's experience) is way off. I
won't know until I get there in the AM.

>> I thought I'd be picking up the car today, but the service mgr told
me
>> that while removing the eccentric bolt that adjusts the lower
control
>> arm it broke off!
>
>Hmmm... These bolts were not a problem for me, and they certainly
>shouldn't have been a problem for professionals, unless of course
>they were being careless with their air tools.


If I'm paying for expertise, there's no excuse for breaking off a bolt
on a car with 20k miles, that has been kept in a garage in a city
where it rarely rains. It should be equivalent to removing a bolt on
a 2 year old car-- neither rusted nor corroded. A piece of cake for a
pro...

>>He claimed that there was 'extra undercoating'
>>and that the bolt had been 'over-torqued'.
>
>A Mitsubishi dealership service center broke two of my front wheel
>studs while changing my clutch, and they told me the EXACT same
>thing. I knew they were lying because I had hand-torqued the bolts
>myself, but I was forced to pay them because my car was at their
>mercy until I picked it up (it's kind of bad to drive your car away
with
>only 3 front wheel studs). It makes me angry again just to think
about
>it, and I really wished I had done the clutch myself.


I feel the same way... Next time I have to do something like this,
I'm goin to do it myself. I've got all the tools and a big old
fork-lift out back to jack the car up-- I'll buy a spring compressor
and a sixpack and just do it right the first time.

-:-

Well all you guys who have shared your experiences have given me lots
of ammo to bring with me in the morning. I'm going to have 'chapter
and verse' about what things should cost when I go into the
dealership...

I won't be able to post back how I made out until Monday, since I'm
leaving for the weekend as soon as I pick up my car, but I'll let you
all know the final tally...

Thanks so much for all the helpful input!

Best,

Forrest


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 20 01:42:16 1999
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Eibach Springs; Installation nightmare; Help!
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 01:31:04 -0700
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-----Original Message-----From: Jim Berry <fastmax@home.com>
---------snip----------
>> afraid to see what his final bill will be... QUESTIONS: What have
you
>> guys paid to have Eibachs installed??? How much more for
alignment?
>=====================================================
>The tech doesn't sound very competent ----- I installed, in my
driveway,using
>a hydraulic jack, an impact wrench and hand tools the following items
in about
>6 hours. Ground control caster/camber plate, stainless steel brake
lines, paint
>the calipers, GAB struts, Ground Control spring perches, checked the
camber
>with a bubble gage and the toe with a couple of aluminum straight
edges.
>I took the car to an alignment shop the following day and spent two
hours and
>$90 setting the alignment and finding out what range of adjustment I
now have.
>The rear is out of spec. [ I dropped the car 1 1/2" ] so I have to
resolve that.


I thought the tech sounded incompetent as well... When I worked on my
'muscle cars', doing springs was a piece of cake-- on a lift, maybe an
hour per pair. But I'm just not familiar with our suspensions, so I
thought maybe there was something else involved. From what I've heard
so far, it's pretty much the same to do our springs. But it sounds
like you also might have to go with elongating the holes in the rear
to get back to spec, as was suggested to me for the Eibachs. Once I
get them installed, I'm going to be right there and watch them do the
alignment and report back... I'm just a bit surprised that with all
the guys on the list with Eibachs, that more of them didn't mention
problems getting the alignment correct... Either their installers
didn't mention it, or they're driving around with squat cambered
rears.

Thanks for the great feedback!

Best,

Forrest


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 20 07:19:27 1999
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: "Ron Thompson" <rtetetet@earthlink.net>
Cc: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Eibach Springs; Installation nightmare; Help!
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 07:19:10 -0700
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-----Original Message-----From: Ron Thompson <rtetetet@earthlink.net>
>The time sound right for install that you got from the site, and at
>$52 / hr. that would be $160 plus four wheel alignment at about $60
>and suspension mods at 2 hrs. add $110. Total $340. I bought mine
from
>my guy and he put them in for $100.


Change $52 to $87.50, (since I live in the land of 16-yr-old Silicon
Valley millionaire C-programmers), and the total is around $500... I
can live with that-- I'm just not prepared to pay for an internship
on top of that while some chucko looks at a Stealth for the first
time...

>Boy Howdy, that's a 19 mm bolt! I heard them strip them, but break
>it??? Well yeah, if you over tighten it. They could have stripped the
>head that has the eccentric, it's a little short on the head depth,
>and had to cut it off. Their problem either way. It doesn't sound
like
>the technician is very slick. I wouldn't pay for the inexperience of
>the guy. You know they bill you for what the shop manual says it will
>take to do a certain job. If they run over it's their fault. If they
>under cut it, they don't reduce the price to you. I'd stand hard on
>paying more than $350, and that is still high.


I'm not sure anymore what he said about the kind of damage to the
bolt, but you'd better believe I'm gonna take a good look at it. I
think he said they broke it, but I could be wrong; I was more
concerned about them replacing the bolt and me getting the car back in
time to leave SF today for a long Birthday weekend for ET (my SO). By
SF prices, if I can get out of there for under $500, I'll chalk it up
to experience and think hard about going back there. The one thing
I've got going is that they KNOW about Team3S and that 450 other folks
are going to hear about their fairness (or lack of same)...

Thanks again for all the great input!

Best,

F


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 20 08:02:05 1999
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Message-ID: <006101beeb1c$434d3ea0$6400a8c0@syzygy>
From: "Chad Beeder" <syzygy@eskimo.com>
To: "Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Questions about a steering problem
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 07:56:59 -0700
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Hello,

I'm new to the list. Hi everybody!

I have some questions about a few problems I seem to be having on my '93
VR4. I think these symptoms, may be related, but I'm hoping that someone
here may be able to tell me for sure.

1. The steering seems to be a little bit loose and not as accurate as it
used to be. (I haven't had the car that long, so maybe this is just my
imagination, but it seems this way to me.) Hitting bumps in the road will
sometimes tend to jerk the steering wheel around quite a bit.

2. The car tends to pull slightly to the left. (I have checked the tire
pressures and they seem OK.)

3. I work in a building which has speed bumps in the parking lot.
Generally, when coming into or leaving the parking lot, I'll hear a sort of
clunking sound when I hit the first speed bump with the front tires.
Subsequent speed bumps don't produce this noise.

Any thoughts as to what this might be? I saw something on the 3SI page
about loose tie rod ends producing similar problems; is this the most likely
culprit, or given these symptoms are there other things it could be? (I'm
not very knowledgeable about the mechanics of cars and to be frank, I don't
even have a clear understanding of what tie rod ends are, other than they
have something to do with the steering mechanism.)

I've had the car for about two months (it has about 70,000 miles on it) and
it is looking like it won't be cheap to get it in top condition and keep it
that way (I also have some slight problems with the synchros) but I
definitely love it anyway! These are beautiful cars and it is great to
finally have my dream car. :-)

Thanks,

Chad


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 20 09:28:39 1999
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From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: BOV thoughts
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 11:28:13 CDT
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Hey everyone,

I've been debating for awhile now as to which blow off valve to buy. I'm
still leaning towards a 1g DSM BOV. I've heard a lot of stories about
people with aftermarket ones (Blitz, HKS, Apexi, GReddy) that get a
stumbling or other problems between shifts during daily driving.

Roger mentioned that ones with twin chambers shouldn't have this problem.
Although he admits he has some problems with his BOV. I'd like to hear from
some other people. Who else has comments about their aftermarket BOV??

Thanks,
Curt,
95 R/T TT --> 13.11 @ 105.9 mph
96 GSX --> 14.49 @ 92.9 mph
and author of Minnesota 3/S at: http://www.mn3s.org


_______________________________________________________________
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 20 10:07:01 1999
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Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 12:12:03 -0700
From: Peg A Gagne <pagagne-mn@worldnet.att.net>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Questions about a steering problem
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Chad Beeder wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm new to the list. Hi everybody!
>
> I have some questions about a few problems I seem to be having on my '93
> VR4. I think these symptoms, may be related, but I'm hoping that someone
> here may be able to tell me for sure.
>
> 1. The steering seems to be a little bit loose and not as accurate as it
> used to be. (I haven't had the car that long, so maybe this is just my
> imagination, but it seems this way to me.) Hitting bumps in the road will
> sometimes tend to jerk the steering wheel around quite a bit.
>
> 2. The car tends to pull slightly to the left. (I have checked the tire
> pressures and they seem OK.)
>
> 3. I work in a building which has speed bumps in the parking lot.
> Generally, when coming into or leaving the parking lot, I'll hear a sort of
> clunking sound when I hit the first speed bump with the front tires.
> Subsequent speed bumps don't produce this noise.
>
> Any thoughts as to what this might be? I saw something on the 3SI page
> about loose tie rod ends producing similar problems; is this the most likely
> culprit, or given these symptoms are there other things it could be? (I'm
> not very knowledgeable about the mechanics of cars and to be frank, I don't
> even have a clear understanding of what tie rod ends are, other than they
> have something to do with the steering mechanism.)
>
> I've had the car for about two months (it has about 70,000 miles on it) and
> it is looking like it won't be cheap to get it in top condition and keep it
> that way (I also have some slight problems with the synchros) but I
> definitely love it anyway! These are beautiful cars and it is great to
> finally have my dream car. :-)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chad
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm


Chad

When I bought my 94 VR4 in April I had the same problem with the
steering. All I had to do was buy new tires & the car now steers like a
dream-problem gone.

As far as the clunk going over speed bumps, I'm anxious to hear other
replies as I have the same thing and only 28K on my car.

Peg Green 94 VR4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 20 10:07:06 1999
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: "Chad Beeder" <syzygy@eskimo.com>,
"Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Questions about a steering problem
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:04:52 -0700
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-----Original Message-----From: Chad Beeder <syzygy@eskimo.com>
---------snip-------
>1. The steering seems to be a little bit loose and not as accurate as
it
>used to be. (I haven't had the car that long, so maybe this is just
my
>imagination, but it seems this way to me.) Hitting bumps in the road
will
>sometimes tend to jerk the steering wheel around quite a bit.

I'll leave your tie-rod scenario to others who know more about it than
I do, but here's a possible explanation about your car responding
strongly to bumps and cracks in the road... If the car has
aftermarket wide(r) tires (especially directionals), different than
stock, the car may have a tendency to 'track' (pull to one side) in
road cracks and jump right or left when hitting a bump. This is a
known fact, and one which some of us have alleviated somewhat by going
with higher than normal tire inflations. I have wide directional
performance tires on my car (and had a similar problem to yours), and
I tried varying the inflation at the suggestion of a racer... It
solved the 'tracking' problem (and the problem of understeer, too)---

Stock inflation (on the door jamb) was 32 front, 29 rear. I drove the
car at various inflations all the way up to 50 lbs, by 3 lb increments
(F/R): 35/32, 38/35, 41/38, 44/41, 47/44, 50/47..., and found that
the car handled best in the MIDDLE of that range. (There's also a
different dynamic on the FWD than on your AWD car, which calls for a 6
lb differential between Front and Rear). After testing for a while, I
finally settled on 43/37 for my 'normal' setting. If I'm just about
town, I use a softer 40/34, and on long trips or in the rain, I use
46/40. Although there are plenty of folks who will debate this
(mainly because you WILL shorten the life of the tires), you can
definitely FEEL when your car is handling best, and that isn't always
the recommended 'comfort' setting suggested on the door jamb.
Handling is more important to me than tire economy, so I prefer these
higher PSI's, but you may have different priorities... But you owe it
to yourself to try a few other settings and see if it makes your car
'feel' more responsive and less at the whim of road imperfections.
And you can always go back to the stock inflations...

BTW, I think the other "syzygy" screen name on the list (Nissa and her
husband, syzygy@webzone.net) use inflations above stock, too, and she
drives (and races) a car like yours. You might want to ask her what
tires and settings she uses on the street...

Email me privately and let me know how you made out.

Best,

Forrest



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 20 10:48:33 1999
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To: "Chad Beeder" <syzygy@eskimo.com>,
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Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 12:48:26 -600
Subject: Re: Team3S: Questions about a steering problem
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>-----Original Message-----From: Chad Beeder <syzygy@eskimo.com>
>---------snip-------
>>1. The steering seems to be a little bit loose and not as accurate as
>>it used to be. (I haven't had the car that long, so maybe this is just
>>my imagination, but it seems this way to me.) Hitting bumps in the road
>>will sometimes tend to jerk the steering wheel around quite a bit.
>

Bob Forrest wrote:

>BTW, I think the other "syzygy" screen name on the list (Nissa and her
>husband, syzygy@webzone.net) use inflations above stock, too, and she
>drives (and races) a car like yours. You might want to ask her what
>tires and settings she uses on the street...

Thanks for the recommendation Bob! Us "syzygy's" tend to have good taste in
cars, what can I say? *wink*

I hate to admit it but I have not paid too much attention to the tire pressure
on my street tires. I've only had them for 3 months and they are performing
very well on suggested tire pressures (suggested by the tire maker - not the
car door.)

I will tell you this... my first 3/S was an Stealth RT/TT. It came with Dunlop
SP8000s - OLD ones. It was very 'skittish' and jumped all over the road. When
I replaced them with a set of Michelon (sp??) Pilots and alot of the skittishness
went away.

On my VR-4 it came with 18x8.5 wheels (stock ones). And had Yokahama tires...
the Yoks were good and only slightly skittish. After my car was stolen and recovered
we got the 18x9's with Toyo Proxies T-1s. They are also just slightly skittish.
But not so bad that I have even messed with tire pressures on it. The VR-4 is
also, literally, impossible to align. It was apparently in a wreck at some time.
I took it to a shop that straightened the frame as well as they could. It still
pulls just SLIGHTLY to the right.

You may want to take your car in for an alignment and verify it wasn't wrecked.
Or try changing tires.. that may help alot. I have never heard the clunk on
first speed bump thing before. But, I did do half of a race with the right sway
bar disconnected (the bolt fell out) which resulted in a clunk whenever I turned
the wheel far left. I put in the bolt and it worked great.

Race tire pressures vary depending on the course and weather more than anything
else. We usually running in some combination between 32 and 50 pounds on Khumo
Victor Racer tires (with 17x8.5 wheels). There is no hard and fast rule. Major
thing to do in that environment is mark the sides of your tires and do a run.
If your tires roll you want to add more pressure. If they don't get far enough
to the edge, let some out... We do tend to run higher pressure in front than
back due to the weight distribution.

I hope all that helps!

Nissa

95 VR-4


Don't mess in the affairs of dragons.
For you are crunchy and go good with ketchup.
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Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 13:50:25 -0400
From: Randy MacAulay <rmacaulay@mediaone.net>
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To: Team3S <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Castrol Syntec 5-50
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Hi,

I was wondering if anyone out there had any experience (good or bad)
with Castrol Syntec 5w50. I'm about to change the oil in my car and I
can get a great deal on this but I don't want to use it just cuz' it's
relatively inexpensive.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
Randy
'94 VR4
Greddy Profec 'A'
misc. other mods.
3si #0053



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 20 11:40:23 1999
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From: "Dave Allison" <dallison@siebel.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: HKS SSBV problems
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 11:39:03 -0700
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Heya!

I've gone through my archives of both lists and unfortunately they
don't seem to go far enough back.

I'm looking for any information anyone may have regarding the
adjustment of the screw in the back of the HKS SSBV.

A few months back I found that the SSBV was only working
intermittently and it has only gotten progressively worse. It's now to the
point where the SSBV does not work at all! I can hear the compressor surge
and it makes me wince to imagine what the turbo compressor blades are
withstanding as I lift the throttle.

Am I correct in assuming this is an adjustment problem?

I notice there are 2 screws located above and below each other on
the same bolt on the SSBV. I'm wondering if the nut nearest the SSBV
housing is supposed to be tightened down and not adjusted at all. Perhaps
the farthest nut is the one that is to be adjusted? I don't have any
directions for the unit and although HKS may be doing wonders for the
graphic presentation of their website... the content of their website simply
sucks. I could find no info whatsoever?

HELP!


Dave Allison

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 20 13:28:02 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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To: Team3S List <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Castrol Syntec 5-50
References: <37BD9560.F5B545B7@mediaone.net>
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I run Castrol RS Racing oil 5W-60 since last year. It's known as the best oil
for "hot" running cars although on our cars the oil is not getting as hot as in
a Porsche or a Supra TT.

I do have nothing to say but good to this stuff. Mitsu is recomending Castrol
for the cars here and I always had it in the car.

In winter I use 0W-30 for the extra protection.

> I was wondering if anyone out there had any experience (good or bad)
> with Castrol Syntec 5w50. I'm about to change the oil in my car and I
> can get a great deal on this but I don't want to use it just cuz' it's
> relatively inexpensive.

Inexpensive ? Here it is one of the most expensive juice available ($17 a liter)

Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 20 13:46:32 1999
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Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 15:57:45 -0500
To: Team3S List <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
From: Wayne Hietala <wala@hypertech-inc.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Castrol Syntec 5-50
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Oh yes, the good ol' days in Japan where Castrol RS was available. I used
it in my Motorcycle, great stuff, too bad it was $10-15 a quart.(but worth
it when the capacity is 2 qts)


At 03:27 PM 8/20/99 , R.G. wrote:
>I run Castrol RS Racing oil 5W-60 since last year. It's known as the best oil
>for "hot" running cars although on our cars the oil is not getting as hot
as in
>a Porsche or a Supra TT.
>
>I do have nothing to say but good to this stuff. Mitsu is recomending Castrol
>for the cars here and I always had it in the car.
>
>In winter I use 0W-30 for the extra protection.
>
>> I was wondering if anyone out there had any experience (good or bad)
>> with Castrol Syntec 5w50. I'm about to change the oil in my car and I
>> can get a great deal on this but I don't want to use it just cuz' it's
>> relatively inexpensive.
>
>Inexpensive ? Here it is one of the most expensive juice available ($17 a
>liter)
>
>Roger
>93'3000GT TT


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 20 13:51:56 1999
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From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'Randy MacAulay'" <rmacaulay@mediaone.net>
Cc: Team3S <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Castrol Syntec 5-50
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 13:50:17 -0700
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Randy...

I used Castrol Syntec 5-50 for two years in my VR4. I've been pleased with
it's performance, although I felt the low end might be a little too low for
our moderate climate, so I changed to Mobil 1 10-50 with the last change
(after a motor flush). Results have not been significantly different,
perhaps one minor division increase in meter reading at idle.

Looking forward...Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Randy MacAulay [mailto:rmacaulay@mediaone.net]
Sent: Friday, August 20, 1999 10:50 AM
To: Team3S
Subject: Team3S: Castrol Syntec 5-50
Hi, I was wondering if anyone out there had any experience (good or bad)
with Castrol Syntec 5w50. I'm about to change the oil in my car and I
can get a great deal on this but I don't want to use it just cuz' it's
relatively inexpensive.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
Randy
'94 VR4
Greddy Profec 'A'
misc. other mods.
3si #0053

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 20 14:26:37 1999
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From: "Dg B" <dbretton@hotmail.com>
To: stealth@starnet.net, stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: MiniMopar Oil Filter Study Page -Resurrected!-
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 17:26:10 EDT
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Hello all,

I noticed that the minimopar site, which contained all that good info on
a comparison on the physical characteristics of oil filters, had been taken
down for legal reasons.

Well, resourceful 'ole me had duped the entire page (minus a couple of
links) locally on my hard drive.

I have popped up a replica of the minimopar site on my web page.
However, I have made no links to it off of my main page, in the hopes of
keeping the legal eagles (and search engines) at bay.

If you haven't checked out the site, you can see it here:
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/6637/oilfilterstudy.htm

If you would like a copy of the site, I have zipped it, and would be happy
to send it to you. (about 770k, zipped)

Hope that helps!

Regards,
Dennis


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 20 15:09:46 1999
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From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
To: "Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Corner weights for 3000 VR4
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 17:13:25 -0500
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Have any of the road racers out there actually measured the corner weights
for the 3000s?

I'm going to be purchasing a coil over setup (not sure which one yet) and am
looking for a point of reference.

Please don't reply telling me what you have, or what someone told you to
get.(springs) I only want actual numbers.

Thanks,

Brad
Check out my home page: http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com ICQ# 3612682


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 20 19:42:15 1999
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From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Adventures in braking, cont'd
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We installed Porterfield R4 race pads in the VR4 earlier this week, in
preparation for running at Blackhawk Farms this weekend. Last night, I
bedded in the brakes. Instructions say to keep stopping until the brakes
fade, so I continually ran it up to 80, banged on the brakes, brought it
down to 20 mph or so, then off we went again. Problem was, the brakes would
not fade. After about 10 cycles, I thought I oughta take a look, so I
stopped, got out, and saw that they were on fire! Flames were literally
coming out of the spokes!

Hoo, boy! I jumped back in, got 'er going again to put out the flames, then
cruised around the back roads until everything cooled off and parked it for
the night.

I called Porterfield today to ask if I had done a no-no, and they said
everything was normal, go have fun.

We'll see. I guess the brakes not fading after 10 big stops is a GOOD sign,
eh?

Track report on Monday.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4/Somebody stop me!




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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 20 19:59:58 1999
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From: "Oskar" <swede@pclink.com>
To: "Dave Allison" <dallison@siebel.com>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: HKS SSBV problems
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 21:55:14 -0500
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What you're seeing on your SSBV is a bolt and locking nut. Adjustments are
made by loosening the locking nut (closest to the SSBV), turning the
adjustment bolt (the bolt itself). Once you have made your adjustments you
tighten down the locking nut and voila you're done.


Oskar
'95 R/T TT

>
> I notice there are 2 screws located above and below each other on
>the same bolt on the SSBV. I'm wondering if the nut nearest the SSBV
>housing is supposed to be tightened down and not adjusted at all. Perhaps
>the farthest nut is the one that is to be adjusted? I don't have any
>directions for the unit and although HKS may be doing wonders for the
>graphic presentation of their website... the content of their website
simply
>sucks. I could find no info whatsoever?
>
>HELP!
>
>
>Dave Allison
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 20 20:32:38 1999
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Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 20:43:46 -0700
From: David Margrave <davidma@premier1.net>
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Sometimes I get my used motor oil analyzed by a lab. I asked them if
they'd ever analyzed marvel mystery oil, and they said they hadn't but
offered to do it for free. So I sent off a small sample of new marvel
mystery oil, wanting to find out just what's inside it before I put it
inside my car (some folks have recommended it as a possible fix for the
clacking valves)

Here's a rough summary of the results. By the way, the lab I use is
Blackstone labs, at http://www.blackstone-labs.com. I asked them to
create a new equipment category for the twin turbocharged 3.0L
mitsubishi engine. I'm not sure if this is of interest to y'all, but I
like to get hard quantitative data wherever possible, i.e. did that K&N
I just installed let a lot more crud into the engine? etc.

the test checks for a lot more elements than I list here, I only list
the ones that had non-zero values:

element parts per million
-------------------------------------
iron 1
copper 1
silicon 1
phosphorous 576
zinc 1

sustained viscosity @210 deg. F: 35.3
Flashpoint: 195 deg. F
- compare these to 57-72 viscosity and 375 deg F. flashpoint for a
10W/30 - this is pretty light stuff.


Dave


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 20 20:54:50 1999
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: BOV thoughts
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I have a Blitz SSBOV and have experienced none of the stumbling or
hesitation problems supposedly attributed to vent-to-atmospehere BOVs.

I suspect the problem has more to do with leakage of the BOV than where it
is vented. If you think about it, the BOV typically operates when the
throttle is closing. The ECM shouldn't care too much about any mixture at
this point. At part throttle a properly operating BOV will be thoroughly
closed. The only plausible explanation I can concoct is leakage which is of
course unmetered air and therefore may throw off the 'puter.

According to a few manufacturers of pricey high end BOVs, mass produced BOVs
have less than perfect production tolerances which can lead to leakage
between the cyclinder and bore of the BOV under pressure. Makes sense to
me.

Maybe I got lucky and got one that doesn't leak as others with Blitz and HKS
and whatever BOVs have reported of the stumbling problem. Yet others report
no such trouble.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
>
> Hey everyone,
>
> I've been debating for awhile now as to which blow off valve to buy. I'm
> still leaning towards a 1g DSM BOV. I've heard a lot of stories about
> people with aftermarket ones (Blitz, HKS, Apexi, GReddy) that get a
> stumbling or other problems between shifts during daily driving.
>
> Roger mentioned that ones with twin chambers shouldn't have this
> problem.
> Although he admits he has some problems with his BOV. I'd like
> to hear from
> some other people. Who else has comments about their aftermarket BOV??
>
> Thanks,
> Curt,
> 95 R/T TT --> 13.11 @ 105.9 mph
> 96 GSX --> 14.49 @ 92.9 mph
> and author of Minnesota 3/S at: http://www.mn3s.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 20 20:58:05 1999
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Reply-To: <beking@home.com>
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: HKS SSBV problems
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 20:58:09 -0700
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It could be dirty. Grit and oil and parts of small animals etc may get in
there occasionally. The clearance between the cylinder and the bore of the
BOV is miniscule. If it is dirty it may exhibit the problem you report.
Might be worth a disassembly and cleaning with a non-residue forming
solvent, then a careful adjustment after it is back together. While you're
in there check the health of the spring.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----

> Heya!
>
> I've gone through my archives of both lists and unfortunately they
> don't seem to go far enough back.
>
> I'm looking for any information anyone may have regarding the
> adjustment of the screw in the back of the HKS SSBV.
>
> A few months back I found that the SSBV was only working
> intermittently and it has only gotten progressively worse. It's now to the
> point where the SSBV does not work at all! I can hear the compressor surge
> and it makes me wince to imagine what the turbo compressor blades are
> withstanding as I lift the throttle.
>
> Am I correct in assuming this is an adjustment problem?
>
> I notice there are 2 screws located above and below each other on
> the same bolt on the SSBV. I'm wondering if the nut nearest the SSBV
> housing is supposed to be tightened down and not adjusted at all. Perhaps
> the farthest nut is the one that is to be adjusted? I don't have any
> directions for the unit and although HKS may be doing wonders for the
> graphic presentation of their website... the content of their
> website simply
> sucks. I could find no info whatsoever?
>
> HELP!
>
>
> Dave Allison

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 21 11:16:23 1999
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From: "Accelerated Accessories" <meyer2@erols.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Split Second Fuel Controller
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 14:16:19 -0400
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BEEBDF.BD699440
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All:

I just finished installing my Split Second ARC2 Fuel controller and new =
fuel injectors. I have had some experiance with the HKS VPC/GCC setup =
as well as the Apexi AFC and neither of these devices have impressed me =
nearly as much as the ARC 2. The main difference between the VPC and =
ARC 2 is that the VPC Converts the air/fuel system to a speed density =
setup which involves intercepting signals to the ECU, altering them and =
then turning them back into somthing that the ECU can understand. The =
ARC 2, on the other hand, uses a MAF sensor which replaces the factory =
Karman Vortex air flow meter. By not having to hack/convert signals, =
the ARC2 setup offers superior drivability over VPC cars. Not to =
mention the ease of tuning that is involved in getting the ARC 2 up and =
running. The Split Second ARC2 kit includes a 3.5 MAF, Large K&N =
filter, ARC2 control unit, wiring harness, ARM 1 air/fuel ratio meter, =
all hardware, and complete wiring diagram (including pin out and color =
coding). The entire install can be completed in about an hour. More =
tech info is available at www.splitsec.com. From now on, I will be =
recommending these fuel controllers over the VPC. If anybody is =
interested in purchasing the ARC2 give me a call at 301-393-8800 or =
email meyer2@erols.com=20


Matt
www.AcceleratedAccessories.com

------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BEEBDF.BD699440
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>All:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I just finished installing my Split Second ARC2 Fuel =

controller and new fuel injectors.&nbsp; I have had some experiance with =
the HKS=20
VPC/GCC setup as well as the Apexi AFC and neither of these devices have =

impressed me nearly as much as the ARC 2.&nbsp; The main difference =
between the=20
VPC and ARC 2 is that the VPC Converts the air/fuel system to a speed =
density=20
setup which involves intercepting signals to the ECU, altering them and =
then=20
turning them back into somthing that the ECU can understand.&nbsp; The =
ARC 2, on=20
the other hand, uses a MAF sensor which replaces the factory Karman =
Vortex air=20
flow meter.&nbsp; By not having to hack/convert signals, the ARC2 setup =
offers=20
superior drivability over VPC cars.&nbsp; Not to mention the ease of =
tuning that=20
is involved in getting the ARC 2 up and running.&nbsp; The Split Second =
ARC2 kit=20
includes a 3.5 MAF, Large K&amp;N filter, ARC2 control unit, wiring =
harness, ARM=20
1 air/fuel ratio meter, all hardware, and complete wiring diagram =
(including pin=20
out and color coding).&nbsp; The entire install can be completed in =
about an=20
hour.&nbsp; More tech info is available at <A=20
href=3D"http://www.splitsec.com">www.splitsec.com</A>.&nbsp; From now =
on, I will=20
be recommending these fuel controllers over the VPC. If anybody is =
interested in=20
purchasing the ARC2 give me a call at 301-393-8800 or email <A=20
href=3D"mailto:meyer2@erols.com">meyer2@erols.com</A> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Matt</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.AcceleratedAccessories.com">www.AcceleratedAccessories=
.com</A></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_002B_01BEEBDF.BD699440--

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 21 11:30:32 1999
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From: "Nav Moondi" <moondin@megahits.com>
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
CC: stealth@starnet.net
Subject: Team3S: 1999 West Coast Gathering Update
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Howdy!,

Okay. Sorry folks. I've been in Florida for the
past couple weeks and haven't done much of an update
lately for you all.

However, I have made a few changes to the site
including a new url. Also, added a flyer that you can
download and give to dealerships and other 3S's in
your area.

I will be making some more updates over this weekend,
including maps of the area, restaurant information,
and hopefully even sponsors.

Here is the new url for the gathering: Sept. 24th,
25th and 26th in Monterey, CA :

http://www.megahits.com/moondin/wcg.htm

Please send me an email if you will be attending.

Spread the word! It's the first and only West Coast
Gathering we'll have this century! :)

-= nav =-

"Fancy Blue Suit $300. Cologne $45. Dance club
admission. $15. Rejection from pretty blonde 'cuz
you're too fat. Priceless..."
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 21 14:22:01 1999
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Message-ID: <000201beec1a$807049e0$6400a8c0@syzygy>
From: "Chad Beeder" <syzygy@eskimo.com>
To: "Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Questions about a steering problem
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 13:25:56 -0700
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Thanks to everyone who replied to my question about the steering problem.
At least now I have some ideas of what might be going on and what to look
for. I'm taking the car in to the dealer for an oil change next week, so
I'll see if I can get them to look at it for me while I'm there. I'll try
to get some Redline MT-90 in the transmission too - hopefully that will help
smooth out the shifting.

Beyond that, I have a few minor dings and scratches in the paint, and an
Active Aero system that doesn't like to work properly (rear spoiler goes up
fine but only goes down when it's raining(!), front tends to stick halfway
when extending and turns on the "Aero" light on the dash). Once I get all
that fixed I'll be pretty happy with the condition of the car. Hopefully.
:-)

Thanks,

Chad
93 VR4


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 21 14:57:44 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Split Second Fuel Controller
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Admin part: I got HTML in Matts message. Please turn the stuff off please.

> The main difference between the VPC and ARC 2 is that the VPC
> Converts the air/fuel system to a speed density setup which involves
> intercepting signals to the ECU, altering them and then turning them back into
> somthing that the ECU can understand.

The VPC does the same as the ARC ! The only differences are that the VPC uses a
MAP sensor and the manifold temperature as the reference while the ARC uses its
own MAF and sensors in it (no MAP sensor at the ARC2-GP). The ARC uses the air
flow to determin the boost while the VPC uses boost to see the airflow. Both are
then sending a new frequency signal to the cars ECU. Due to the boost sensor the
system is NOT converted to speed density !!

> The ARC 2, on the other hand, uses a MAF sensor which replaces the factory
> Karman Vortex air flow meter. By not having to hack/convert signals, the
> ARC2 setup offers superior drivability over VPC cars.

I fully agree with you on driveabilty in different seasons, cold, hot weather
and so on. But you know that the VPC removes any flow meter. Therefore saying
that the ARC does not hack/converts signals also 100% belongs to the VPC. The
GCC as an additional to the VPC and allows fine tuning on different rpms the
program does not give the full power needed.

Matt knows definitely more about the VPC stuff than I do but what he's
describing only belongs to the AFC computers and NOT to the VPC.

> Not to mention the ease of tuning that is involved in getting
> the ARC 2 up and running.

As the ARC2-GP is the right one for our cars some signals have already been
prepared for our ECU. Therefore it should be easier to be tuned in than the VPC
stuff. But it will take about the same time to tune it in as a VPC to get the
most out of it. For sure I expect a better driveability due to the real air flow
metering.

The ARC2-GP is a good thing for sure and it sits at least on the same level as
the VPC. Some things you said were not really correct about the VPC and more
belongs to the AFC that is in a totally different region (i.e. low cost mini
fuel controller for small injectors) The advantage of the ARC is its ability to
adjust for different weather and climate changes, but some need this and others
don't. We'll see.

Please note that I want to make sure that we compare apples with apples.

Roger
93'3000GT TT

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 22 00:11:42 1999
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Subject: Team3S: Narrowing down vibration source
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 00:18:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sam_Wong@hyperdream.com
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I just replaced my driveshaft with a good used one but it did not help with
the vibration problem that I've reported for a long time now. The vibration
frequency is the same.

Symptom: Harmonic driveline vibration felt in the seat. Seems to be more
noticeable in the rear. Occurs while only in gear, not in neutral. Occurs
only at around 30mph in 2nd gear, 45mph in 3rd, and 60mph in 4th. RPM is
usually in the 2500-3000 range. Vibration goes away when speed is higher or
lower than those indicated at each gear. Vibration is more noticeable when
applying the gas pedal.

Note that the vibration disappears when I press the clutch or put the
shift stick into neutral. Maybe this is a key point.

Work Done:

1. Replaced driveshaft carrier bearing
2. Replaced tires
3. Replaced transmission output shaft and transfercase spool
4. Inspected engine and transmission mounts (Seems fine)
5. Checked and fixed wheels
6. 4-Wheel alignment
7. Replace driveshaft
8. Replace clutch and pressure plate

The next thing I might look at or replace is the flywheel. Can an out of
balance flywheel cause harmonic vibrations like this? Anything else?
Could it be something in the engine or would the fact that it doesn't
vibrate in neutral eliminate this possibility?

Any help appreciated.

Thanks.
Sam.
--
http://www.hyperdream.com/~samw | ICQ: 26616322
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 22 07:58:23 1999
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Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 10:57:19 EDT
Subject: Re: Team3S: Narrowing down vibration source
To: Sam_Wong@hyperdream.com, stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
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In a message dated 99-08-22 03:16:55 EDT, you write:

<< Symptom: Harmonic driveline vibration felt in the seat. Seems to be more
noticeable in the rear. Occurs while only in gear, not in neutral. Occurs
only at around 30mph in 2nd gear, 45mph in 3rd, and 60mph in 4th. RPM is
usually in the 2500-3000 range. Vibration goes away when speed is higher or
lower than those indicated at each gear. Vibration is more noticeable when
applying the gas pedal.

Note that the vibration disappears when I press the clutch or put the
shift stick into neutral. Maybe this is a key point.
>>

So if you leave the car in gear and let the clutch out you still get this
vibration? Lets say you are at about 50mph in 3rd gear - this is just above
your harmonic vibration point in terms of speed. Now depress the clutch pedal
but keep it in 3rd gear. As the car slows down through the 45mph harmonic
point do you get a vibration? If no, then this tells you the vibration is
associated with the engine - I'd really think about replacing the engine
mounts.

One other thing you really should check: make sure all the heat shields
around the exhaust are not loose. I had a Toyota Supra that gave the same
kind of harmonic vibration you describe - it would happen at a certain engine
rpm for each gear. It has been awhile but I think it only did this while in
gear. It was certainly more noticeable when accelerating. I do remember
asking my local mechanic to check it out and telling him I was almost
positive the problem was in the drivetrain since the vibration was so bad. He
found a heat shield that was loose and secured it - problem solved.

It is amazing how much a thin piece of sheet metal will vibrate. Perhaps it
was mounted just beside an attachment point for the driveshaft. This would
allow the natural vibration from the engine to travel down the driveshaft and
excite the heat shield. check it out and let us know what you find.

Paul Klusman
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 22 09:03:10 1999
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Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 11:03:05 -600
Subject: Team3S: Safe Boost?
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What is the max boost you can SAFELY run on stock ingectors, fuel map, etc? I
am considering upgraded turbos and need to know how far I can go without messing
with too much else. Only current mods on the car is K&N Drop In and 3" Cat Back
exhaust (no mufflers). I will get a boost controller when I upgrade the turbos.


Thanks!

Nissa
95 VR-4

BTW. I am looking to buy an 'economy' car for my move to California... my VR-4
isn't exactly fuel efficient and since it has low miles I want to keep it that
way. So, I was looking at V6 Camry's yesterday and realized how spoiled I really
am! It is really hard to get excited about a car that isn't at least 300hp!
If anyone has been through this delima and gotten a fuel efficient (and somewhat
powerful) daily driver please e-mail me privately and let me know what you use...
Thanks again!

Don't mess in the affairs of dragons.
For you are crunchy and go good with ketchup.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 22 09:31:42 1999
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From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'syzygy@webzone.net'" <syzygy@webzone.net>,
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Subject: RE: Team3S: Safe Boost?
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15 psi (1.0 bar)

Looking forward...Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: syzygy@webzone.net [mailto:syzygy@webzone.net]
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 1999 4:03 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Safe Boost?


What is the max boost you can SAFELY run on stock ingectors, fuel map, etc?
I
am considering upgraded turbos and need to know how far I can go without
messing
with too much else. Only current mods on the car is K&N Drop In and 3" Cat
Back
exhaust (no mufflers). I will get a boost controller when I upgrade the
turbos.


Thanks!

Nissa
95 VR-4

BTW. I am looking to buy an 'economy' car for my move to California... my
VR-4
isn't exactly fuel efficient and since it has low miles I want to keep it
that
way. So, I was looking at V6 Camry's yesterday and realized how spoiled I
really
am! It is really hard to get excited about a car that isn't at least 300hp!
If anyone has been through this delima and gotten a fuel efficient (and
somewhat
powerful) daily driver please e-mail me privately and let me know what you
use...
Thanks again!

Don't mess in the affairs of dragons.
For you are crunchy and go good with ketchup.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 22 18:07:19 1999
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From: "Paul T. Golley" <ptgolley@ro.com>
To: <stealth@starnet.net>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>,
"Merritt" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: To flip the wing or not?
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 20:03:44 -0500
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>Ok road racers:
>We all know our cars push at very high cornering speeds.
>As I understand it, this is because the rear sticks better than the front,
>so the front plows.

>It seems to me that one way to even things out would be to NOT put up the
>rear wing -- we only get about 100 pounds of downforce anyway, but this
>would make the rear a teeny bit lighter and lessen the push.
>
>Any thoughts on this? Wing up or down? What would not having the air dam
>down do in front?
>Rich/old poop/94 VR4

Rich-
I haven't raced for some time, but I think you need to know that
when you put more cornering torque into your rear end, you will
reduce understeer or "push." Therefore, stiffining your rear
roll stabilizer bar, or increasing your rear tire pressures will tend
to mitigate understeer, or "pushing." Try it, you'll like it!
Regards,
ptg

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 22 20:01:08 1999
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From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Blackhawk Farms Drivers School
Cc: "Grier, Cathi" <cathi_grier@cmfz.com>, Jeff.Lacina@GarstSeedCo.com,
nolon.white@KVI-INS.com, Rob Merritt <timesr@marshallnet.com>
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Went to a BMW driver's school at Blackhawk Farms this weekend.

Highlights:
1. For the first event yet, the Old Poop Brake Shop was closed for the
weekend. Porterfields work!
2. When ya move up a class, the competition gets tough
3. BMWs are fine racecars.

A LAP OF BLACKHAWK FARMS

It's 1.9 miles through the trees, with some scary places. The only place to
relax is on the front straight, because it's the only place that's
straight. Everything else is a series of linked turns, and you are very,
very busy. It is NOT a horsepower track, although it helps. Tires,
handling, and keeping your speed up is vital. I ran the entire thing in
3rd gear, never shifting.

Turn 1 is at the end of a 3/8 mile straight. I hit 110 just before 1 if I
got a good launch onto the straight, 100 otherwise.
Bang on the brakes, then a very late apex right into turn 1. It's a 90-deg
right, taken in a nice continuous arc.

Turn 2 is a gentle bend to the left, taken flat out at about 80. Big pucker
factor the first few times you do this, then it gets to be second nature.
The VR4 is pulling hard in 3rd gear through here, so it makes up lots of
ground on slower cars or those who brake for 2.

It's flat out from the apex of turn 1 to the braking point for turn 3.
We're doing about 90 before braking for 3.

Brake for Turn 3, a carousel (continuous-radius turn) to the right. Take
this in the middle of the track, stay at a constant speed half way around
at about 45, then hard on the throttle at the exit, clip the inside curb at
3A (left) then hard on the brakes for 3B (right).

There is no correct line through this 3a-3b S-turn -- all you really want
to do is get properly set up for the exit of 4.

Turn 4 is a left- left, and you must tap the brakes slightly at the exit to
set the suspension, or you slide into the concrete wall, 20 ft beyond the
turn.

Late apex into the entry of 4 (left), tap brakes then flat at the exit of 4
(left) and keep it flat out all the way to 6.

Turn five is an increasing-radius left. You come out of 4 at about 65,
accelerate to the very, very late apex of 5, grit your teeth, pucker up,
hold the turn-in to the last possible microsecond, clip the apex on the
left, and let the car drift to the right, all the way to edge of the track,
at about 95 mph. Keep it flat, start easing back to the left to set up for
6, a right. At about 105, bang on the brakes. If you take 5 correctly, you
get an adrenelin rush you would not believe! Omigawd! I did it!

If you turn in a teeny bit too early, you run out of track at 95 mph, and
take a wild ride through the grass. This involves getting all four wheels
about 3 ft in the air whilst flying over some grassy bumps, mowing down the
grass, and ripping off brake ducts. Your humble narrator has personal
experience with such an adventure.

Only once, though. I did manage to eventually find the correct turn in point.

But I digress.

Hard on the brakes at 6, late apex to a right-right, then down the back
straight to 7, another right. About 150 yards from 7 is a slight kink to
the right, taken at 100. Don't lift, just flat though the kink, wait til
the car stops sliding and is straight again, then bang on the brakes, late
apex, clip the concrete curb at the exit, then down the front straight,
heading for 1 again. That's a lap of Blackhawk Farms.

There is some discussion as to where the fastest point on the track is --
some say it's the end of the straight at 1, others say it's the entrance to
6, and others say it's 7. All I can say is, the only time I could actually
watch the speedo when entering a turn is at 1, because it's the end of a
straight straightaway. Too much is going on at the entries to 6 and 7 to
watch, although I did see 95 and 100, respectively, at various points prior
to those turns. Believe me, you do not want to look down at the speedo
prior to braking at either turn.

ABOUT THE BRAKES
For this event, I ran Porterfield rotors and R4 race pads. We put the pads
on prior to the event, and drove there (about 180 miles) on the pads.

My infamous brake ducts were partially inoperable. While driving on the
street, one duct caught on something, ripped off the hose, and wrapped the
hose around the CV joint, tearing the boot. Just prior to the event, I had
to have the boot replaced, and never had time to put the hose back on. On
the right side, the hose had pulled out of the front scoop, and was just
hanging there. It was still connected to the caliper, but its inlet was no
longer in the scoop. It was just stuffed up inside the front valence. My
intent was to use some time between runs to re-install the hoses. Never got
to do this.

Nevertheless, for the first time ever, the pads did not fade. At the end of
each session, I still had brakes! This involved bringing it down from 100
or near-100 mph speeds to about 40 mph at least four times per lap (at 1,
3, 6 and 7), plus a coupla places where you just stab it good (3b and 4).

During my third session, when I did some agricultural driving across the
field, the grass ripped off the brake scoops, so my plans to fix the hoses
went south.

Next day, I ran the first session, then pulled the right front wheel to
inspect the pads up close and personal. They looked like they would last
the entire weekend. Unfortunately, I pulled the wrong wheel. As it turned
out, the right wheel (the one that had some air cooling for a while) was
just fine. Unknown to me, the uncooled left side was wearing much faster.
At the end of the second session, I pulled the left wheel and saw that the
pads were down to the backing, and the rotor was scored. I packed up and
went home. I didn't want to replace both front rotors and install stock
pads just to run two more sessions.

Lesson: With air ducting, I think a set of Porterfields will last an entire
weekend. I'll have that back on by the next event at Road America in October.

THE COMPETITION

As I predicted, competition in higher classes is tougher. This was a BMW
club event, and there were some very nasty cars driven by experienced
dudes. They put little decals in their rear windows -- very subtle, these
Bimmer people -- that say stuff like Dinan, Brembo, and such as that. Since
Blackhawk is not a horsepower track, it was tough to use the superior power
of the VR4, so these Beemers were tough to catch. For example, it's very
difficult to make up ground on an M3 from 1 to 3 or 4 to 6, where both of
us are flatout all the way through there. I could catch cars from 6 to 7 or
7 to 1, but that was the only place where HP made a significant difference.

There was an AWD Eclipse and an Eagle Talon in my class, each with a bigger
turbo and intercooler, boost controller, and sticky tires. One said he was
running about 325 HP with his 2700 lb car. I could pass either, albeit with
great difficulty. I got the Talon because he lifted at 2 and 5, but I think
the Eclipse only let me by just so he could follow me for a while. We were
basically dead even everywhere on the track. I had some trouble getting by
a lowly Neon, equipped with the performance package from Chrysler (brakes,
suspension, balanced and blueprinted engine). It took me several laps to
get by, mainly because he was actually a little faster than I was from 1-3.
(How do they do that?) What an amazing little car!

My son sent me an account (similar to this narrative) on how to drive
Blackhawk in a Fiero, written by an autocrosser, and it's amazing how his
speeds and mine are so similar. It means that handling is far more
important here than horsepower.

I got all the 318s, 325s, miscellaneous unknown BMWs, and Audis in my
group, but never encountered the two corvettes and a carrera. I never did
get one badass M3, but I did catch him once.

It was a good weekend. The car is starting to get right! Rear pads, Ground
Control springs and the bleeder valve are next.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4
Porterfield cryogenically treated rotors.
Porterfield R4 race pads
Brake ducts (sometimes)
Yokohama 032R race tires
K&N







For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 23 06:46:13 1999
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Can someone let me know how I can access these archives? Are they
searchable?

Also, would it be possible for me to download the archives onto my
computer and read them at my own leisure?

Thanks

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 23 07:07:03 1999
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Message-ID: <00b001beed71$33f2f380$0100a8c0@netcom>
Reply-To: "Jeffrey Young" <jefyoung@ix.netcom.com>
From: "Jeffrey Young" <jefyoung@ix.netcom.com>
To: "Stealth - Team 3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Polishing
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:08:00 -0600
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For those people who are interested in having your valve cover or plenum
polished, but do not want your car out of commission during the polishing
and shipping time, below is a salvage yard that has some used valve covers
and a plenum for sale. If your interested, buy the used part and ship it to
me for polishing. See http://www.omega-sw.com/stealth/fu00005.htm
for more information on polishing.


Jeffrey
92 RT/Turbo
www.omega-sw.com/stealth/fu

Hello Jeffrey:
For the upper plenum it would be $250.00. if interested please give Rob a
call at a 800 255 6656 thanks

Hello Jeffrey...In reply to your request for parts, on the valve covers, we
have 1 set of 1991 and 1 set of 1993,for a total in stock, of 4, our price
is $80.00 each, plus $10.00 shipping on each. We also have 1 1991 plenum,
(upper and lower) for a total of $500.00 plus $30.00 for shipping. You can
contact Rob at 1-800-255-6656
and let me know if you are interested. Thank you for contacting us.



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 23 09:15:55 1999
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From: "Carlos Q" <pir8ska@shadow.net>
To: "Chris Winkley" <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>, <syzygy@webzone.net>,
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Safe Boost?
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:22:16 -0400
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Actually, 1.0 bar is 14.7 psi....

=)
Carlos

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: 'syzygy@webzone.net' <syzygy@webzone.net>;
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Sunday, August 22, 1999 12:36 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Safe Boost?


>15 psi (1.0 bar)
>
>Looking forward...Chris
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: syzygy@webzone.net [mailto:syzygy@webzone.net]
>Sent: Sunday, August 22, 1999 4:03 AM
>To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>Subject: Team3S: Safe Boost?
>
>
>What is the max boost you can SAFELY run on stock ingectors, fuel map, etc?
>I
>am considering upgraded turbos and need to know how far I can go without
>messing
>with too much else. Only current mods on the car is K&N Drop In and 3" Cat
>Back
>exhaust (no mufflers). I will get a boost controller when I upgrade the
>turbos.
>
>
>Thanks!
>
>Nissa
>95 VR-4
>
>BTW. I am looking to buy an 'economy' car for my move to California... my
>VR-4
>isn't exactly fuel efficient and since it has low miles I want to keep it
>that
>way. So, I was looking at V6 Camry's yesterday and realized how spoiled I
>really
>am! It is really hard to get excited about a car that isn't at least 300hp!
> If anyone has been through this delima and gotten a fuel efficient (and
>somewhat
>powerful) daily driver please e-mail me privately and let me know what you
>use...
>Thanks again!
>
>Don't mess in the affairs of dragons.
>For you are crunchy and go good with ketchup.
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 23 11:11:16 1999
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From: "Johnson, Scott (CAP, ITS, CA)" <Scott.Johnson@gects.ge.com>
To: "'TEAM3S'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: How-to work in a new clutch... Suggestions
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:09:42 -0400
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Hi guys,

After living with an irritating (and getting progressively worse) "clutch
chatter" for the last month, I'm finally getting a new clutch installed in
my Stealth R/T TT.

I'd like to ask you all what you feel is the best way to break in a new
clutch? (techniques, time required, etc.)

Thanks
Scott

1993 R/T TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 23 11:29:15 1999
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: "Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Cc: "Mike Baldwin" <mbaldwin@eecs.tufts.edu>
Subject: Team3S: Admin: The Archive Page is back On-Line.
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To all:

The Archive Page is back On-Line, and can be accessed through the main
Team3S Page, or directly at:

www.bobforrest.com/Team3S-Archive.htm

Our list software (Majordomo) automatically stores our files on a
monthly basis, as zip files. When you send a request for an archive
file, it is returned to you almost immediately by the software. The
files vary in size, ranging from 100k to 500k. They are searchable
using the search facilities in the WinZip software.

Please let me know if there are any problems accessing the Archive
Page or any of the archive files.

Thank you.

Bob Forrest
Admin, Team3S


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 23 15:04:45 1999
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From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: horsepower calculations
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:04:21 CDT
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Hey everyone,

I used my G-tech Pro over the weekend to take some horsepower readings at
different levels of boost. I thought you might want to see what water
injection can do. :) I've got all the data at this link:
http://mn3s.org/horsepower.html

Enjoy,
Curt,
95 R/T TT --> 13.11 @ 105.9 mph
96 GSX --> 14.49 @ 92.9 mph
and author of Minnesota 3/S at: http://www.mn3s.org


_______________________________________________________________
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 23 15:40:17 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: horsepower calculations
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 00:38:43 +0200
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Thanks for the calculations !

It's very interesting how the real and the math world works together :

My injector calculation sheet shows 414hp for 360cc at 18 psi of boost and
an IDC of about 95%. 100% IDC means 436hp and therefore your car still runs
on the safe side.

With 550cc you'd be able to produce 500hp at 18psi if the WI system is still
able to control detonation ... and I think so :)

BTW, my y-pipe popped off again and my rubber seal broke totally apart. GT
PRO is creating an aluminum one for me asap because I'm not able to go over
10psi without popping off the pipe (glued the rubber to the pipe). Time to
do a good break job now :(

Roger
93'3000GT TT

>I used my G-tech Pro over the weekend to take some horsepower readings at
>different levels of boost. I thought you might want to see what water
>injection can do. :) I've got all the data at this link:
>http://mn3s.org/horsepower.html



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 23 16:07:51 1999
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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:07:54 -0700
From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: horsepower calculations
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Hi Curt,

Nice measurements!

> I used my G-tech Pro over the weekend to take some horsepower readings at
> different levels of boost. I thought you might want to see what water
> injection can do. :) I've got all the data at this link:
> http://mn3s.org/horsepower.html

The multiplication factor you are using appears to be too low. According to
Roger et al's dyno test in Feb, a 2nd gen with 18" wheels & 6 speed have about a
29.55% loss. Thus the wheel to flywheel multiplication factor should be: 1 / (1
- .2955) = 1.419! (I too have a hard time believeing this multiplication
factor, but that is what I calculate from the info that Roger has previously
posted, see includes).

>From include 1, Rogers car shows a drivetrain loss of 27.85%. This gives a
wheel to flywheel multiplication factor of 1 / ( 1 . 0.2785 ) = 1.386. Using
figures from include 2 you can verify the factor as such: 1.386 * 188.0 =
260.56, and 261.5 * .2785 = 72.83.

Also, you can correct for altitude using this formula posted by Jeffrey Young:
Corrected HP = Actual HP * ((Altitude / 1000 * .042)+1)

Using this formula and multiplication factor, I calculate HP values that seem to
be higher than I expect (do my bleeder valve at 15psi & FIPK really give me
418HP on my '91 VR4??). Perhaps someone can correct me if my logic isn't
correct. Also, I guess results really depend on the weight entered on the
G-Tech Pro (the higher the weight, the more optimistic the result) and the
accuracy of it's setup & measurement. My current suspicion is that the G-Tech
Pro gives optimistic (even if fairly consistent) results.

Happy water injecting,
Ken

---- Include 1 -------

> Thanks for the update Roger. I found it interesting that there appears to
> be a loss of about 30% in HP from the flywheel to the wheels. I always
> thought that it was more like a 20% loss.

Mikes loss was 29.55% (18", 6-Speed), Jims 29.88% (17", 6-Speed) and mine 27.85%
(17", 5-speed). The figures before the rebuild showed a huge loss of 34.5% on
mine but I can't say where this came from.

> HP using the G-Tech and if so how close to those results were the dyno
> numbers?

I got around 254hp with the G-Tech. If these are wheel hp then this is around
397 SAE hp calculated with the loss and the correction. This sounds pretty
accurate to my measurments but I'll redo this when I'm getting the thing back
from my Supra friend ! BTW, his automatic Supra TT had a loss of 21%


---- Include 2 -------

Of course, each car has its own drivetrain loss (tranny oil ??). As mine is a
5-speed with 17" here are the figures written on my sheet :

P-Wheel : 188.0kW (252hp)
P-Loss : 73.5kW (98.7hp)
P-Engine : 261.5kW (350.7hp, uncorrected)

Now the figure has to be SAE corrected and this can not only be done by a
multiplication as the dyno does this upon the measured figures. Don't ask me
what it does (Wayne ?)

For the G-Tech figures the following page gives a good explanation how to
calculate Flywheel hp :
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/9190/g-tech.html

It works very well for manual rear/front wheel driven cars but I'm not sure
about automatics or AWD.

Hope this helps. I'll check out with the G-Tech when the Supra guy ends playing
with it :)

----
I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 23 17:48:38 1999
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From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: horsepower calculations
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:48:13 CDT
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Hey everyone,

I'm glad I'm not getting too shot down for my calculations. ;) Yes, Roger
it is good to see the numbers come close to yours. I didn't even now you
came up with those numbers. But, remember I was using a 20% drivetrain
loss. If our cars truly do lose 29% through the drivetrain, it doesn't do
much good quoting those numbers to people, because it over inflates the
abilities of our cars. I feel comfortalbe telling people my car is putting
out 410 hp at the flywheel, with water injection. Now if I could just get
decent times at the track to back that up. My best is 13.11 with water
injection. :(

One other discovery I made on Friday that might be of use to people. I
learned that if you buy the 1g DSM BOV with the adapter to fit onto a 2G
DSM, it will fit the 3/S too. I own a 96 GSX and a Stealth. You should of
seen the look on my girlfriend's face when I walked up stairs with a 3/S BOV
in one hand and a 2G DSM BOV in the other and said, "see honey, they are
interchangeable." But the 2G DSM BOV is all plastic and leaks bad. I
bought the 1G DSM BOV and adapter today, for the Stealth, and the Stealth
BOV will probably make its way into the Eclipse.

later,
Curt
http://www.mn3s.org



>From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
>To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Subject: Re: Team3S: horsepower calculations
>Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 00:38:43 +0200
>
>Thanks for the calculations !
>
>It's very interesting how the real and the math world works together :
>
>My injector calculation sheet shows 414hp for 360cc at 18 psi of boost and
>an IDC of about 95%. 100% IDC means 436hp and therefore your car still runs
>on the safe side.
>
>With 550cc you'd be able to produce 500hp at 18psi if the WI system is
>still
>able to control detonation ... and I think so :)
>
>BTW, my y-pipe popped off again and my rubber seal broke totally apart. GT
>PRO is creating an aluminum one for me asap because I'm not able to go over
>10psi without popping off the pipe (glued the rubber to the pipe). Time to
>do a good break job now :(
>
>Roger
>93'3000GT TT
>
> >I used my G-tech Pro over the weekend to take some horsepower readings at
> >different levels of boost. I thought you might want to see what water
> >injection can do. :) I've got all the data at this link:
> >http://mn3s.org/horsepower.html
>
>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 23 18:21:12 1999
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From: "Jeff" <spydervr4@home.com>
To: "Sirius" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <19990824004815.86056.qmail@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: horsepower calculations
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 20:28:25 -0500
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I've used a 1g DSM BOV on my Spyder for quite some time now. The only
problem is, it doesn't have a 90 degree bend in the bottom like the 3000GT
BOV so it doesn't sit quite right. 5th gear and sometimes 3rd gear bump the
BOV and it's noticible in the shifter. To get into 5th I have to really
push. Did you have this same problem? I trimmed the hose that goes to the
Y pipe to try to pull it out of the way of the shifter and it helped a bit,
but still isn't quite perfect.

jeff
'95 Mitsubishi Spyder VR-4
'90 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX


----- Original Message -----
From: Curt Gendron <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Sent: Monday, August 23, 1999 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: horsepower calculations


> Hey everyone,
>
> I'm glad I'm not getting too shot down for my calculations. ;) Yes, Roger
> it is good to see the numbers come close to yours. I didn't even now you
> came up with those numbers. But, remember I was using a 20% drivetrain
> loss. If our cars truly do lose 29% through the drivetrain, it doesn't do
> much good quoting those numbers to people, because it over inflates the
> abilities of our cars. I feel comfortalbe telling people my car is
putting
> out 410 hp at the flywheel, with water injection. Now if I could just get
> decent times at the track to back that up. My best is 13.11 with water
> injection. :(
>
> One other discovery I made on Friday that might be of use to people. I
> learned that if you buy the 1g DSM BOV with the adapter to fit onto a 2G
> DSM, it will fit the 3/S too. I own a 96 GSX and a Stealth. You should
of
> seen the look on my girlfriend's face when I walked up stairs with a 3/S
BOV
> in one hand and a 2G DSM BOV in the other and said, "see honey, they are
> interchangeable." But the 2G DSM BOV is all plastic and leaks bad. I
> bought the 1G DSM BOV and adapter today, for the Stealth, and the Stealth
> BOV will probably make its way into the Eclipse.
>
> later,
> Curt
> http://www.mn3s.org
>
>
>
> >From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
> >To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
> >Subject: Re: Team3S: horsepower calculations
> >Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 00:38:43 +0200
> >
> >Thanks for the calculations !
> >
> >It's very interesting how the real and the math world works together :
> >
> >My injector calculation sheet shows 414hp for 360cc at 18 psi of boost
and
> >an IDC of about 95%. 100% IDC means 436hp and therefore your car still
runs
> >on the safe side.
> >
> >With 550cc you'd be able to produce 500hp at 18psi if the WI system is
> >still
> >able to control detonation ... and I think so :)
> >
> >BTW, my y-pipe popped off again and my rubber seal broke totally apart.
GT
> >PRO is creating an aluminum one for me asap because I'm not able to go
over
> >10psi without popping off the pipe (glued the rubber to the pipe). Time
to
> >do a good break job now :(
> >
> >Roger
> >93'3000GT TT
> >
> > >I used my G-tech Pro over the weekend to take some horsepower readings
at
> > >different levels of boost. I thought you might want to see what water
> > >injection can do. :) I've got all the data at this link:
> > >http://mn3s.org/horsepower.html
> >
> >
> >
> >For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> >http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 24 03:29:38 1999
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Reply-To: <lehir@genesiscom.ch>
From: lehir@genesiscom.ch (Genesiscon Lehir)
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: horsepower calculations
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:29:34 +0200
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Some food for thoughts

>>The multiplication factor you are using appears to be too low. According
to
>>Roger et al's dyno test in Feb, a 2nd gen with 18" wheels & 6 speed have
about a
>>29.55% loss. Thus the wheel to flywheel multiplication factor should be:
1 / (1
>>- .2955) = 1.419! (I too have a hard time believeing this multiplication
>>factor, but that is what I calculate from the info that Roger has
previously
>>posted, see includes).

I don't see why the drivetrain horsepower loss is a PERCENTAGE of the POWER
generated by the engine.

I agree that it would fluctuate a little (caused by increased friction), but
not that much.

If the value is given as a percentage of the STOCK horsepower, I would
agree.....but a drivetrain loss
that is a DIRECT function of the power generated......doesn't compute right.

I know as a fact that in a TTZ, the drivetrains loss is about 20% of the
STOCK horsepower (300 HP), but stays the same when you increase the power
output up to 550 HP....and I don't really see WHY my Stealth, even if it's
an AWD, should be different.

Any ideas ??

Henri

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 24 04:30:08 1999
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: <moondin@megahits.com>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>,
<cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Cc: <vect0r0@ix.netcom.com>, <steven-c@e-d-a.com>, <djett@corp.ultratech.com>,
"David Chen" <neubine@ix.netcom.com>,
"Rajal (Raj) Oswal" <rajal@netobjects.com>, <salcaide@sprintlabs.com>,
"Satya Palani" <satya@longshadows.com>, "Satya Palani" <satya@gho.st>
Subject: Team3S: W.Coast Gathering, Monterey; BANG'99#2, Portland...
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 04:26:27 -0700
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-----Original Message-----From: Nav Moondi <moondin@megahits.com>
-------snip------
>Here is the new url for the gathering: Sept. 24th,
>25th and 26th in Monterey, CA :
>http://www.megahits.com/moondin/wcg.htm
>Please send me an email if you will be attending.
>Spread the word! It's the first and only West Coast
>Gathering we'll have this century! :)


Errrrr, point of order, Mr. Chairman... This IS important news, and
we're spreading the word, but:

1. Cross posting (to both lists in one email) is NOT allowed. You
were away, Nav, but every time someone answers a cross-post to
Starnet, it BOUNCES here (lots of those lately). That means our ISP
gets pissed, which endangers the Team3S list. Please, DON'T do it,
folks!

2. Thanks for finally letting us know about the WCG... It's the
first time many of us have heard of this, so it may be difficult for
many to make plans. But it sounds like it will be a fine array of
cars, and great fun! (I just got back from Monterey last night-- just
gorgeous there!).

3. I guess you're a little late being "the FIRST" West Coast
gathering... The Pacific NW guys have been having them for years, we
at "Team3S" (and others) had BANG'99#1 (Bay Area Northwest Gathering)
in January here in San Francisco, and we are having BANG'99#2 in
Portland THIS WEEKEND!!!

BANG'99 plans: Some of us will be racing at PIR (Portland
International Raceway) on Friday night; Saturday AM features a
cavalcade/phot-op through some beautiful winding roads, Barbecue at
Chris Winkley & Teri Beaman's house in the afternoon, and a HEART
concert that night; more photos & brunch Sunday morning, and a STYX
concert Sunday PM.

But undoubtedly, the West Coast Gathering will be "the LAST" gathering
of the century (unless we squeeze in a BANG'99#3!), and probably the
biggest! :-)

Anyone interested in joining either gathering should reply in private
email:

BANG'99#2, Portland, OR, Aug. 27, 28, 29:
Chris Winkley cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com

WCG#1, Monterey, CA, Sept. 24, 25, 26:
Nav Moondi moondin@megahits.com

Everyone-- Have a GREAT time, drink but don't drive, and keep the
shiny side up! See you there!

Best,

Forrest



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 24 05:27:22 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: horsepower calculations
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 14:27:06 +0200
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>I don't see why the drivetrain horsepower loss is a PERCENTAGE of the POWER
>generated by the engine.


You're absolutely right, the drivetrain loss is a function of speed (and
therefore rpm) in a specific gear (with very small fluctuation)

The curve is not linear and is measured by running the car on the dyno up to
6000 in the gear you want to measure power and then pressing the clutch. The
resistance is then measured against speed / rpm and stored. On the power
measurement this loss is then added to the wheel hp that finally results in
the flywheel hp.

At the max wheel hp we'll have a specific loss and this added results in max
engine hp. Have a look at my dyno sheet
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/roger_1.gif

Here the max wheel hp is 188kW with a loss of 73.5kW. Therefore engine power
is 261.5kW and 73.5kW is a loss of 28.1%. This of course only belongs to
peak hp. The loss difference of the cars is due to the fact that my 13G
equipped car had the hp peak earlier than the others. Therefore the loss is
somewhat smaller at the lower rpm and therefore the real engine hp a little
lower then the others. But the curves on the loss are the very same (my 5
speed is a little different but not too much)

Henri, on what dyno have you measured the 300ZX ? 20% (on max.hp) is high
for a RWD but them the 28% on my AWD would make sense. On Audi Quattros they
saw around 20-26%.

Roger
93'3000GT TT (y-pipe-less at the moment...)

>I agree that it would fluctuate a little (caused by increased friction),
but
>not that much.
>
>If the value is given as a percentage of the STOCK horsepower, I would
>agree.....but a drivetrain loss
>that is a DIRECT function of the power generated......doesn't compute
right.
>
>I know as a fact that in a TTZ, the drivetrains loss is about 20% of the
>STOCK horsepower (300 HP), but stays the same when you increase the power
>output up to 550 HP....and I don't really see WHY my Stealth, even if it's
>an AWD, should be different.


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 24 06:05:54 1999
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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:05:00 EDT
Subject: Re: Team3S: horsepower calculations
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In a message dated 8/23/99 5:05:23 PM Central Daylight Time,
curt_gendron@hotmail.com writes:

<< I used my G-tech Pro over the weekend to take some horsepower readings at
different levels of boost. I thought you might want to see what water
injection can do. :) I've got all the data at this link:
http://mn3s.org/horsepower.html

Enjoy,
Curt, >>

Hey Curt & everyone,

Excellent post & website, Curt!! Very informative! So you're definitely
in favor of the water injections system, eh? hehehheheheh.....lol...I know!
I can't wait to get it as well. ;-P

I'm wondering.....did you have to calibrate the weight of your car at all
with the G-tech Pro? If so, did you calculate the weight at about 4005lbs.?
(that's what my '92 VR4 weighs with me (230lbs.) in it, 1/8 tank of gas,
removed spare tire & full interior).

Talk to you later,

Ahmed "AL-Crazy" - '92 VR4 (Still in Body shop!!)
GReddy Profec B boost controller, GReddy turbo timer, Apex'i sequential
b.o.v., SPI motorsport boost gauge & pillar pod, K&N filtercharger, Alamo
Downpipe, Hi-flow cat, Borla exhaust, Magnecore 8.5mm wires & new NGK spark
plugs gapped at .032, Apex'i New liquid crystal Super AFC (not installed
yet), KVR Cross drilled rotors with carbon fiber pads, Nitto Power Extreme
NT-555 (255/40/17's) tires, Enkei RP-O1 17x9 (42mm offset) racing wheels &
Eibach Pro-Kit Springs (not installed yet). Coming soon: Turbo upgrade,
550cc. injectors & HKS fuel pump (hopefully all will be installed before
Sept. 12th & 18th. for the IMPORT NOPI Drag WARS!!!!)
&
1987 Grand National (for sale): way too many mods to list! Please forward my
email address to anyone who may be interested in purchasing this collector's
car!!!

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 24 06:29:47 1999
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Subject: Team3S: Driving School
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Dude, that sounds like an incredible experience.

Just out of curiousity, how much does all this racing cost you? Being only
25 (and not part of any Silicon Valley start up) means my VR4 is a luxury.
Can't afford to bang it up.

I have car payments for the next 2 years, but maybe I'll pick up a used
car somewhere to race around in. What do you think - an old 1G?

mb

97 VR4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 24 07:01:56 1999
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From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: horsepower calculations
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:01:32 CDT
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Hey Ahmed,

Yes, you do need to enter the weight into the G-tech. I had about a quarter
of a tank of gas. I entered 4,000 lbs. for the weight. All horsepower runs
were made in 2nd and 3rd gear, but mostly 2nd. It creates less drag if your
going slower. Thats why 2nd is better.

later,
Curt
http://www.mn3s.org


>Hey Curt & everyone,
>
> Excellent post & website, Curt!! Very informative! So you're
>definitely
>in favor of the water injections system, eh? hehehheheheh.....lol...I
>know!
>I can't wait to get it as well. ;-P
>
> I'm wondering.....did you have to calibrate the weight of your car at
>all
>with the G-tech Pro? If so, did you calculate the weight at about
>4005lbs.?
>(that's what my '92 VR4 weighs with me (230lbs.) in it, 1/8 tank of gas,
>removed spare tire & full interior).
>
>Talk to you later,
>
>Ahmed "AL-Crazy" - '92 VR4 (Still in Body shop!!)


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 24 07:13:31 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Driving School
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>Just out of curiousity, how much does all this racing cost you? Being only
>25 (and not part of any Silicon Valley start up) means my VR4 is a luxury.
>Can't afford to bang it up.

For Blackhawk Farms, a race weekend costs:

Entry fee: $150
New front race pads: $120
Plus travel, hotel, and meals.

The next event at Road America will cost $250 for an entry fee.
Events at Heartland Park are $200.

For a one-time try, you should get by for about $500 (new pads, brake
fluid, entry fee, travel)
Don't worry about banging up the car -- the instructor won't let you.
Because you don't know how to brake properly yet, you may ruin a rotor or
two, and definitely will go through a set of pads. Save the old street
pads, and put them back in when the event is over.

If you want to do it on a regular basis, you'll need a set of race tires
($800) and a spare set of wheels ($400). The tires should last for 3-4
events, or an entire season (I do three events per year so far, but would
like to do about six). You'll replace front pads every event, and front
rotors every 2-3 events. I ran my first season on street tires, and wore
them down very fast.

>
>I have car payments for the next 2 years, but maybe I'll pick up a used
>car somewhere to race around in. What do you think - an old 1G?

A 3000GT is a tough car to campaign because it's so heavy and expensive to
fix if you ding it. You might want to think about a AWD Eclipse or Eagle
Talon instead. They weigh 1,000 pounds less, are cheaper to run, and race
parts are readily available. That keeps it in the family, too.
>
Rich/old poop
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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>Just out of curiousity, how much does all this racing cost you? Being only
>25 (and not part of any Silicon Valley start up) means my VR4 is a luxury.
>Can't afford to bang it up.

For Blackhawk Farms, a race weekend costs:

Entry fee: $150
New front race pads: $120
Plus travel, hotel, and meals.

The next event at Road America will cost $250 for an entry fee.
Events at Heartland Park are $200.

For a one-time try, you should get by for about $500 (new pads, brake
fluid, entry fee, travel)
Don't worry about banging up the car -- the instructor won't let you.
Because you don't know how to brake properly yet, you may ruin a rotor or
two, and definitely will go through a set of pads. Save the old street
pads, and put them back in when the event is over.

If you want to do it on a regular basis, you'll need a set of race tires
($800) and a spare set of wheels ($400). The tires should last for 3-4
events, or an entire season (I do three events per year so far, but would
like to do about six). You'll replace front pads every event, and front
rotors every 2-3 events. I ran my first season on street tires, and wore
them down very fast.

>
>I have car payments for the next 2 years, but maybe I'll pick up a used
>car somewhere to race around in. What do you think - an old 1G?

A 3000GT is a tough car to campaign because it's so heavy and expensive to
fix if you ding it. You might want to think about a AWD Eclipse or Eagle
Talon instead. They weigh 1,000 pounds less, are cheaper to run, and race
parts are readily available. That keeps it in the family, too.
>
Rich/old poop
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 24 08:58:47 1999
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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:57:50 -0400
From: mark kibort <mkibort@compuserve.com>
Subject: Team3S: Horsepower calculations. (Loss estimations)
To: "INTERNET:stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
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Hello all,

As I mentioned before, How in the heck can you have or measure a 30% loss.
I saw some mention of the
"loss inventory" but how was that measured? On the dyno, you can do a
coast down in gear and out of gear to get
rolling losses which are about 20 hp at 130 mph and go down to 10 hp at 80
mph (So this variable is speed dependant)
you can see the compression and general engine shape by doing a coast down
with it in gear, but those numbers are about 1/2 the driven wheel hp. So,
how do you get 30% loss in a fairly efficient gear box and diff that should
be in the sub 20 loss range?.)
I would love to think that my 250 hp to the ground 928S track car has
357hp, but no way. (more like 288HP with a 15% loss)
I race cars that are in the 300 to 350 range on the flywheel, and they are
definitely faster on the straights on the track.
My next thought is if it was true, you would be boiling transmission fluid
as the entire 30% loss in energy has to go somewhere , and that somewhere
is heat. Minus the rolling losses of about 20 hp, you would have 100 hp of
pure heat coming out of a transmission.
Think of the heat and thermal mass of a 100 hp engine, and then think of
how much of that 100 hp is going up in heat. ( I think I remember
something about our "heat engines" being about 50% efficient . So, 50 hp
out of an engine in heat is still very hot, even with water cooling it.
Now double that number and think of that heat in just your transmission and
rear differential.

Im just thinking out loud here , but are we being a little optimistic on
the HP flywheel numbers?
Really interested in the calculations of the losses in your 4wd monsters.

Respectfully,

Mark Kibort
eRACING
www.electricsupercharger.com

PS. Just returned from a Touring car club race at Buttonwillow Raceway,
where Team eRACiNG took 1st and 2nd place overall against some major
trailerbabies. The 450 hp mustang, was over heating over the two days,
so its mechanic and driver had to settle for a third and pack up there
tools trailer sets of tires and trailer and go home with their tails
between there legs. Sometimes Racing is not about who's car is fastest,
but who's car can run properly under stress. ( that "stang" had every mod
you could think of and done very well. You could eat off the engine, and
heat your food right on top of that Supercharger.
Both eRACiNG cars (european M3 lightweight full race, but streetable, and
the 928S ) had the eRAM electricsuperchargers.
OUR first victory.



a Message text written by INTERNET:stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>Some food for thoughts

>>The multiplication factor you are using appears to be too low. According
to
>>Roger et al's dyno test in Feb, a 2nd gen with 18" wheels & 6 speed have
about a
>>29.55% loss. Thus the wheel to flywheel multiplication factor should be:
1 / (1
>>- .2955) = 1.419! (I too have a hard time believeing this multiplication
>>factor, but that is what I calculate from the info that Roger has
previously
>>posted, see includes).

I don't see why the drivetrain horsepower loss is a PERCENTAGE of the POWER
generated by the engine.

I agree that it would fluctuate a little (caused by increased friction),
but
not that much.

If the value is given as a percentage of the STOCK horsepower, I would
agree.....but a drivetrain loss
that is a DIRECT function of the power generated......doesn't compute
right.

I know as a fact that in a TTZ, the drivetrains loss is about 20% of the
STOCK horsepower (300 HP), but stays the same when you increase the power
output up to 550 HP....and I don't really see WHY my Stealth, even if it's
an AWD, should be different.

Any ideas ??

Henri
<

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 24 09:12:36 1999
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From: "Scotty" <omnitech@fast.net>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: 92 RT, Just will not turn over
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:12:33 -0400
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I got a problem, I've had my 92 RT Twinturbo in storage for at least 6 =
months. Took it off the road for insurance reasons. But here the =
problem. I keep the battery connected for a few months while it was in =
storage. I went to start it up one day and the Battery was dead. So I =
charged the battery, checked it with a Battery load tester and it was =
fine. But when I go to start the car, nothing. But all the Accessories =
work fine. I did notice that the battery cable wires were a little =
corroded. I cleaned the Battery terminals and connectors, but the car =
still will not crank over. Any ideas on what to do?

Mike Scott
92 RT TT
omnitech@fast.net

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I got a problem, I've had my 92 RT =
Twinturbo in=20
storage for at least 6 months. Took it off the road for insurance =
reasons. But=20
here the problem. I keep the battery connected for a few months while it =
was in=20
storage. I went to start it up one day and the Battery was dead. So I =
charged=20
the battery, checked it with a Battery load tester and it was fine. But =
when I=20
go to start the car, nothing. But all the Accessories work fine. I did =
notice=20
that the battery cable wires were a little corroded. I cleaned the =
Battery=20
terminals and connectors, but the car still will not crank over. Any =
ideas on=20
what to do?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mike Scott</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>92 RT TT</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:omnitech@fast.net">omnitech@fast.net</A></FONT></DIV></BOD=
Y></HTML>

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 24 09:17:57 1999
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From: "Palamara, Peter" <pala@gwl.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: 92 RT, Just will not turn over
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:12:16 -0600
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Does the car click at all for the starter??? If it doesn't then do you push
in the clutch in all the way to the floor board, people starting my car has
this same problem because you actually have to floor the clutch to Inage the
starter. Just thoughts...


92 3000 GTO S.C.
Soon to be exactly what the plates say :)
Plates (HIPRESR)
1-800-888-gwla x4733
http://members.xoom.com/palamarap <http://members.xoom.com/palamarap>



-----Original Message-----
From: Scotty [mailto:omnitech@fast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 10:13 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: 92 RT, Just will not turn over


I got a problem, I've had my 92 RT Twinturbo in storage for at least 6
months. Took it off the road for insurance reasons. But here the problem. I
keep the battery connected for a few months while it was in storage. I went
to start it up one day and the Battery was dead. So I charged the battery,
checked it with a Battery load tester and it was fine. But when I go to
start the car, nothing. But all the Accessories work fine. I did notice that
the battery cable wires were a little corroded. I cleaned the Battery
terminals and connectors, but the car still will not crank over. Any ideas
on what to do?

Mike Scott
92 RT TT
omnitech@fast.net <mailto:omnitech@fast.net>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 24 10:04:14 1999
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From: "Nav Moondi" <moondin@megahits.com>
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: re: West Coast Gathering - Sept 24, 25, 26th.
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>Starnet, it BOUNCES here (lots of those lately). That means our ISP

Really?? That's odd. Don't see how that would work but..

>2. Thanks for finally letting us know about the WCG... It's the
>first time many of us have heard of this, so it may be difficult for
>many to make plans. But it sounds like it will be a fine array of

It's looking pretty cool. First year is always the smallest, but
hopefully it'll turn into a yearly event and start grabbing people
from far away. That's how the East Coast Gatherings started.

>at "Team3S" (and others) had BANG'99#1 (Bay Area Northwest Gathering)
>in January here in San Francisco, and we are having BANG'99#2 in

I was there for the January one. That was fun! How far is Portland,
Oregon from S.F.? Is there a hp for the BANG #2?

c ya Bob!

-= nav =-

"West Coast Gathering homepage: http://www.megahits.com/moondin/wcg.htm"
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 24 10:22:25 1999
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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:21:51 -0400
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i was wondering what year motor you can use in a 92vr4. are the 2nd gen
motors alot of work to use. how about a 6 speed trans? and how hard is
it to use the 2nd gen headlights on a 1st gen car? is it alot of work?
just some questions iv had for awhile hope you guys can help me out.
thanks rich
92vr4 cincinnati area

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 24 10:31:55 1999
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> i was wondering what year motor you can use in a 92vr4.

91-92. 93's got a 4 bolt main so I don't know if you can use them.


> are the 2nd gen
> motors alot of work to use.

a lot of eletrical differences.

> it to use the 2nd gen headlights on a 1st gen car? is it alot of work?

New hood, a lot of metal cutting and then probably some welding after
that. The entire front end of the car is different from the 1st gens and
2nd gens pretty much.

--Steve "Loco3KGT" Gula
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 24 11:13:00 1999
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From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
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> >I don't see why the drivetrain horsepower loss is a PERCENTAGE of the POWER
> >generated by the engine.
snip
> Here the max wheel hp is 188kW with a loss of 73.5kW. Therefore engine power
> is 261.5kW and 73.5kW is a loss of 28.1%. This of course only belongs to
> peak hp. The loss difference of the cars is due to the fact that my 13G

Thanks Henri & Roger. This is exactly the info I was looking for. Now for
future calculations, I won't multiply wheel HP by "a factor", but instead simply
add the loss of 73.5kW ~= 98.7 HP.

--
I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 24 16:26:47 1999
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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 18:25:39 -0500
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Road America School in October
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The Badger Bimmers BMW club is holding its annual Road America driver's
school October 15-17.

The novice class is closed out, but a few openings still exist for
intermediate and advanced drivers.

Sure wish some of you hotshoe 3000GT drivers from the Midwest would join
me. It's awfully lonely out there among the English (oops, Germans). All I
have from the family are Eclipses and Talons.

Dr Jack T, Mike and Chuck Willis, and Skully, c'mon up! RA is 4.5 miles of
black lightning, with two one-mile straights!

If you're interested, see the website at:
http://www.badgerbimmers.org/Calendar/OctoberFast/octoberfast.html

You can download an entry form, send in yer money, and we'll all kick some
BMW butt.

Those M3s should be easier to take at a horsepower track like Road America
than they were at Blackhawk Farms.

Let me know if you're going.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4



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From owner-stealth-3000gt Tue Aug 24 23:25:38 1999
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From: "Chad Beeder" <syzygy@eskimo.com>
To: "Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Followup to steering question from last week
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:19:53 -0700
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Well, I took my car in to the dealer today for an oil change. Also had them
put some Redline MT-90 in the transmission. The improvement in shifting is
quite noticeable. Still not silky smooth, but much better, and it's greatly
reduced the grinding on the synchros.

But here's the strange thing. The steering problem I was complaining about
last week (loose steering, a bit of play in the steering wheel at highway
speeds, etc.) seems much better now too! I didn't have them specifically
look at the steering, just asked for an oil change, so I don't know what
they could have done that would have affected this. I guess it could have
been something as simple as tire pressure...? Or maybe I was low on power
steering fluid or something? Could that cause something like this?

I'll continue to keep an eye on it, at any rate.

On another note, I do need new tires soon. Right now I'm running the stock
Michelin tires. Can anyone recommend anything better, or should I stick
with the Michelins?

My main considerations for tires are, roughly in this order:
1. All-around performance
2. Performance in the rain (I live in Seattle, so they have to be good in
wet weather)
3. Noise level (would be nice to still be able to hear the stereo) :-)
4. Longevity
5. Price

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Chad Beeder


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 25 05:41:37 1999
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To: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>, stealth@starnet.net,
stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
From: Shawn Dewey <sdewey@dmv.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Road racing and brakes
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>ABOUT THE BRAKES
>For this event, I ran Porterfield rotors and R4 race pads. We put the pads
>on prior to the event, and drove there (about 180 miles) on the pads.
<<<snip>>

>Lesson: With air ducting, I think a set of Porterfields will last an entire
>weekend. I'll have that back on by the next event at Road America in October.

<<<snip>>

>basically dead even everywhere on the track. I had some trouble getting by
>a lowly Neon, equipped with the performance package from Chrysler (brakes,
>suspension, balanced and blueprinted engine). It took me several laps to
>get by, mainly because he was actually a little faster than I was from 1-3.
>(How do they do that?) What an amazing little car!
-------------------

Have to let you in on a secret that the race team and I have come up with
for the Porterfield Pads.
This has worked fabulously for the AWD Talon (World Challenge car ~550 HP)
with TT Stealth rotors and calipers, and on my FWD eagle talon single
piston calipers and tiny rotors :)

When you get the pads from porterfield put them on your gas grill or in the
oven,
(preferably gas grill if you ever want to eat out of your oven again, the
stench will have you doing flashbacks to the last time you came into a
corner too hot at the track and cooked the brakes).

Keep them on the gas grill cooking on high setting for approx. 1/2 hr pad
side up. Then let them cool by just turning off the grill (allows a nice
slow cool down) This pre-heat cycles the pads and they will wear MUCH MUCH
longer. Have not asked Porterfield what they think of this but I am on my
fourth or fifth race weekend with the FWD car. (BTW, They used to only last
a single weekend) The longevity after cooked is unbelievable. Braking does
not suffer at all, and with the price of porterfield pads alone it is worth
a try, you will become a believer. Cost for the front pads for the FWD car
is 139. This cooking on the grill has made race weekends slightly more
affordable!

You may also want to try the R4E compound that Porterfield makes. They take
a little longer to get heat in them but they also last longer, they are
supposed to be the endurance compound. BTW, this is the only pad we used on
the AWD Talon World Challenge car

Just try to keep the barbecue sauce off of the pads! :)

Let me know if you have any questions on this.

This year I am racing a 1981 Mazda RX-7 in the new Spec RX-7 class for the
Washington, DC region of the SCCA. ( http://www.wdcr-scca.org/ ). I am
currently 5th in SRX-7 points, in my second year of road racing. Check out
my site for more details ( http://home.dmv.com/~sdewey/ )

Those pesky ACR neons are fast little cars, I had to run against them all
last year when I ran a 1995 Talon Esi in Showroom Stock C class. I ran
against the SOHC neon with my DOHC "neon motored" Talon because of the
weight difference between the Talon and the Neon (approx 300 lbs)

I will be racing next weekend in a Double regional at Summit Point, WV, (
http://www.summitpoint-raceway.com/ )and can always use extra spectators or
crew if you are interested. Let me know. Event runs from Friday September
3rd through Monday the 6th.


-shawn dewey

'91 Stealth R/T nonturbo 15.426 @ 90.68 (in the happy hands of a new owner!)
'93 3000GT VR4 12.98 @ 107 mph
'91 Talon TSI AWD 13.6 @ 98.8 (the commuter car, yeah right! :)
'95 Talon ESi SCCA Race Car (SSC class #19)
'81 Mazda RX7 GSL SCCA Spec RX7 #32
http://home.dmv.com/~sdewey
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 25 06:25:44 1999
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From: lehir@genesiscom.ch (Genesiscon Lehir)
To: "'R.G.'" <robby@freesurf.ch>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: horsepower calculations
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:25:45 +0200
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Hi Roger

>>You're absolutely right, the drivetrain loss is a function of speed (and
>>therefore rpm) in a specific gear (with very small fluctuation)

I think it's probably mostly a mix between a function of speed (for the
drivetrain by itself, and a function of RPM and gear engaged (for the
gearbox). There's also a part for the tires, as I saw a 9 HP difference,
simply by changing some tires to others !!


>>The curve is not linear and is measured by running the car on the dyno up
to
>>6000 in the gear you want to measure power and then pressing the clutch.
The
>>resistance is then measured against speed / rpm and stored. On the power
>>measurement this loss is then added to the wheel hp that finally results
in
>>the flywheel hp.

That's the correct way to do it.
As soon as you "clutch out", the car will slow down, and the dyno will see
"negative horsepower" (I miss the correct words here), so one can compute
the power eaten by the drivetrain, as well as the max power being generated
by the engine.

>>At the max wheel hp we'll have a specific loss and this added results in
max
>>engine hp. Have a look at my dyno sheet
>>http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/roger_1.gif

Correct way to do it, even if I often saw people only considering the
"positive" value (i.e the curve ABOVE), to find max HP, and max Torque...
and this can lead to incorrect results.

>>Henri, on what dyno have you measured the 300ZX ?

Bosh 2WD dyno, able to measure up to only 400 HP at the wheels (they
do NOT want to see me anymore with the Z :-), Garage De Goudron, in Bulle.
Everything being compensated for normal conditions (20C, sea level)

>> 20% (on max.hp) is high for a RWD

Sigh.....sad, but true. But remember, the fluid you have in the gearbox
makes a difference, as well as the TIRES (this was an astonishment to me)

>> but them the 28% on my AWD would make sense.

I think it's in the correct ball park

>> On Audi Quattros they saw around 20-26%.

That's why I hate to see percentage.....how was it measured.....was it
at peak power, on which transmission combination.
If it's measured the same way as yours, I'd say that it's pretty normal...
and the difference between 26 and 28 is not that big

Henri

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 25 06:44:59 1999
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From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Minnesota cookout reminder
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 08:28:40 CDT
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Hey everyone,

I just wanted to give a quick reminder to anyone thinking about coming to
the "All Mitsubishi Cookout and Car Show" up here in Minneapolis. It is
this Saturday from 11am to 4pm. This event is open to all Mitsubishi made
sports cars. So far we have 21 people signed up to come. All the details
can be found at: http://www.mn3s.org/all_mitsubishi.html

Happy boosting,
Curt
http://www.mn3s.org


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 25 07:10:30 1999
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Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:10:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
To: Chad Beeder <syzygy@eskimo.com>
cc: Team3S <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Tires (Was: Followup to steering question from last week)
In-Reply-To: <000901beeec1$da1d3a80$6400a8c0@syzygy>
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You didn't mention which size you're using. If you are on 16" wheels, I
can offer some suggestions.

I had good experience with BFGoodrich Comp T/A VR4 tires, 225/55VR16.
Long life, good stickiness, especially in wet weather, decent noise, all
around much better tires than the previous two flavors of Goodyear I've
used.

A few months ago I upgraded to Firestone Firehawk SZ50, 245/50ZR16. WOW!
Noise is still good, stickiness is better wet or dry. They're about
US$100 more per set than the BFGs would have been. I'm hoping the tread
life is as good as the BFGs, but that'll be determined over the coming
year or so.

Hope this helps.

Dennis Moore
stealth@kiva.net

Don't mess in the affairs of dragons,
For you are crunchy and go good with ketchup.

On Tue, 24 Aug 1999, Chad Beeder wrote:

> On another note, I do need new tires soon. Right now I'm running the stock
> Michelin tires. Can anyone recommend anything better, or should I stick
> with the Michelins?
>

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 25 07:32:11 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Road racing and brakes
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>Have to let you in on a secret that the race team and I have come up with
>for the Porterfield Pads.

Now the big question : Where can I get the Porterfield brake pads for a good
price besides Porterfield directly (or is this the only source ?). The
Pagids are $230 and the z-Mevius $200 here. I'm not happy with the japanese
ones (I probably have to bake them too) and I'd give the race pads a try
with the Bremsa brakes.

Thanks in advance,
Roger
93'3000GT TT


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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 25 07:41:11 1999
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From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'Chad Beeder'" <syzygy@eskimo.com>,
Team3S
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Tire suggestions
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 07:19:21 -0700
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Chad...

Not sure which Michelins are stock on the NT, but I will always recommend
the XGTs as the best all around, all weather tire. I've had VERY good
experiences with many sizes and types of Michelins.

Looking forward...Chris

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4 (w/HKS Super Flo intake, TEC 15G turbos, bored
and polished throttle body, RC 560cc injectors, HKS fuel pump, GReddy PRofec
A boost controller, G-force ECU upgrade, HKS SBOV, custom intercoolers,
Predator dry cell battery, Magnecore 8.5mm wires, NGK double platinum plugs
gapped at .030", ATR downpipe and test pipe, GReddy catback exhaust, GReddy
turbo timer, Eibach 1" drop progressive springs, Michelin SX MXX3 Pilots)

-----Original Message-----
From: Chad Beeder [mailto:syzygy@eskimo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 11:20 PM
To: Team3S
Subject: Team3S: Followup to steering question from last week
<snip>

On another note, I do need new tires soon. Right now I'm running the stock
Michelin tires. Can anyone recommend anything better, or should I stick
with the Michelins?
<more snip>

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Chad Beeder
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 25 15:01:27 1999
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Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 23:59:54 +0200
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I just wanted to share the information on our bloody enemy : knock. With the
datalogger I'm recording this value against rpm and timing and with this I'm
able to immediatly see the result of the water injection. Goal is to run zero
knock at 6000 with as much bosot as possible. (y-pipe gasket totally broke
apart.. waiting now)

Regards,
Roger
93'3000GT TT

---------------

Knock as it occurs in an engine is a very "impulsy" type of signal. In
other words, very spiky with considerable gaps between spikes. The ECU
samples knock very quickly and can therefore easily catch all of these
spiky events. However, the datalogger port can only log the knock value
about once every five seconds if you are logging a lot of other stuff at
the same time. So it is quite possible that the logger would miss raw
knock events.

The ECU does not act directly on raw knock values anyway. Rather, it
checks to see if the spike value is over a certain amount. If so, it
increments a value - the value I call "knock sum". Counteracting this
constant incrementing of knock is a "bleeder" that bleeds the value of
"knock sum" over time. So if the knock remains below a certain level, the
"bleeder" in the code will eventually drag knock sum to zero. In a DSM, if
knock sum gets above 7, I think, timing will start to be reduced. This
could be different for the 3000. In fact, it is possible that the 3000
uses a higher limit than 43 like in the DSM. Please let me know if you
find that to be true.

So the reason I use knock sum instead of actual knock is twofold. One,
since it is an integral, you will not miss events if you sample at the
wrong time. Two, knock sum directly affects timing, so viewing it takes
you closer to how the ECU is thinking.

-todd-

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 25 17:47:34 1999
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From: "Paul T. Golley" <ptgolley@ro.com>
To: "Mike Baldwin" <mbaldwin@eecs.tufts.edu>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>,
"Merritt" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Cc: <stealth-3000gt-digest@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Driving School
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 19:44:00 -0500
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Being only
>>25 (and not part of any Silicon Valley start up) means my VR4 is a luxury.


Rich-
Being only 25, how do you justify caling yourself "old poop?"
Regards, ptg

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 25 18:51:49 1999
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Message-ID: <00da01beef65$7e6e3640$96e586cd@sch>
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: <lestep@gaylordentertainment.com>,
"Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: '92 Stealth Twin Turbo AWD 5-speed trans
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:50:47 -0700
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Here's a question from a non-member (he found us on Eric's site). One
of you guys want to email him privately with 'chapter & verse' about
the Getrag?

Thanks,

Forrest

-----Original Message-----From: Larry Estep <lestep@worldnet.att.net>

Does anyone know where I can buy parts to rebuild the transaxle gear
cluster for a '92 Getrag Stealth AWD 5-speed manual transmission? The
bearings are shot because the previous owner drove it without any
transmission oil for over a year and a half.

The gears are still in good shape, but all of the bearings are burnt
up. I need the three pairs of bearings for each of the shafts
internal
to the transaxle as well as the left and right oil seals.

Please return email to:

lestep@gaylordentertainment.com

or call me at work at (615)316-6602.

Also, I have the shop manual from Chrysler, but it does not list any
internal parts for the all-wheel drive 5-speed. It does for the
front-wheel drive 5-speed, so if you know they will work, I might be
able to use those. One of my local parts stores has the oil seals for
two of the five possible front-wheel drive 5-speed transaxles, but
those
oil seals are larger than the ones in the AWD, so I am doubtful that
any
of the other parts will work.

Thanks in advance,

Larry Estep



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Wed Aug 25 19:52:39 1999
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Cc: "Dg B" <dbretton@hotmail.com>
Subject: Team3S: Eibach Nightmare is over!
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 19:26:00 -0700
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Yes, indeed, the tech at the Dodge Dealership got careless and trashed
the eccentric bolts (rear camber adjusters) while he was installing my
Eibach Pro-Kit Springs... And it only took him 12 hrs of labor to do
it!!! They had my Stealth for 8 days, but finally finished the
install when the bolts came in, and easily brought the alignment back
to spec. Being one of the "good guys" dealerships, they paid for a
rental car over the weekend, and scrapped all the paperwork on what
they spent, and charged me a flat $375 for everything-- labor,
alignment and tax!

This is the RIGHT way to do business, and I have confidence in them
doing a job right, so they've got me as a permanent customer. If
you're in the Bay Area, that's Les Vogel Dodge, Burlingame, 650
342-2120. They're not the cheapest around, but they're pros, so I
trust them with my car. And the alignment is the best I've ever had.
With the Eibachs, the Stealth feels great!

Thanks to all of you who helped me with suggestions, and some extra
education. :-)

Best,

Forrest


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 26 06:33:25 1999
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<grin> I'm not Rich, I'm Mike!


> Rich-
> Being only 25, how do you justify caling yourself "old poop?"
> Regards, ptg
>
>

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 26 06:35:45 1999
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Subject: Team3S: Re: Admin: The Archive Page is back On-Line.
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Dude, there's music on the page!? ;)


> The Archive Page is back On-Line, and can be accessed through the main
> Team3S Page, or directly at:
>
> www.bobforrest.com/Team3S-Archive.htm
>

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 26 08:56:17 1999
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To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Cc: "Dg B" <dbretton@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:56:06 -600
Subject: Re: Team3S: Eibach Nightmare is over!
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>Yes, indeed, the tech at the Dodge Dealership got careless and trashed
>the eccentric bolts (rear camber adjusters) while he was installing my
>Eibach Pro-Kit Springs... And it only took him 12 hrs of labor to do
>it!!! They had my Stealth for 8 days, but finally finished the
>install when the bolts came in, and easily brought the alignment back
>to spec.

Funny, the Mitsu dealership here in town didn't know what I was talking about
when I asked them to order eccentric bolts for my car (the right front is worn
to the point we can't align the car perfectly). Good thing I'm moving to the
bay area... its nice to know there is someone out there that can work on my
car!

Nissa

Don't mess in the affairs of dragons.
For you are crunchy and go good with ketchup.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 26 09:53:44 1999
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From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
To:
Subject: Team3S: 99 VR-4 available
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:52:50 -0700
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Just to pass along some info:

Northwest Mitsubishi (Everett, WA) has a '99 VR-4 (Black/Black) with *9*
miles on it (as of last night). I know there were some people off and on
asking about '99s. Talk to Jeff (internet sales) or Isaac (I think he's
management now), and tell 'em I sent you- they'll take good care of ya.

I'm giving it some thought, but I'm leaning against it at the moment (mainly
personal reasons-not through any fault of the car other than Getrash :)

--Erik

P.S. e-mail me if you need their phone number- I have it around here
somewhere.

P.P.S. and no, I am in no way connected with NWM. I simply had a very good
experience with Isaac (when he was in sales) last Feb. when I was seriously
looking at a 99 VR-4. It was red instead of black or white, otherwise I'd
probably be driving it now :(

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 26 18:26:53 1999
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From: "Dg B" <dbretton@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Fwd: [stealth] 17" Wheels for Sale
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:26:24 EDT
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Picked this up off of the Stealth "dregs-net" list. haha :)

Just want you to know that the seller is now looking for highest bid.

Regards,
Dennis


>From: Mailmanmtb@AOL.COM
>Reply-To: stealth@DragNet.Com
>To: Stealth@dragnet.com
>Subject: [stealth] 17" Wheels for Sale
>Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:15:05 EDT
>
>I just put on a brand new set of Neeper N-7's on my TT. If anyone is
>interested, I have the factory 17" chrome wheels for sale. Three of them
>are
>in great shape and show slight blemishes around the outer edges of the
>rims.
>(They really look great). The other one is definitely going to need to be
>re-dipped. All of the wheels are in excellent mechanical shape. I am
>asking
>$200.00 plus shipping for anyone interested. Please E-mail me personally
>at
>Mailmanmtb@aol.com
>
>--
>[ You are subscribed to the stealth@dragnet.com e-mail list. If you wish
>to unsubscribe, send a NEW message to 'stealth-request@dragnet.com' with
>a SUBJECT of "REMOVE". If you need help with getting the digest version,
>setting flags, or other commands, instead use a subject of "HELP".]
>


_______________________________________________________________
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Thu Aug 26 21:01:22 1999
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Subject: Team3S: [Fwd: 92 Dodge Stealth R/T twin turbo]
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Hey Team;

This was inadvertently sent to me at subscriptions instead of
"you all". Sounds like a reasonable one to puzzle over...you can
open your own service dealership with the solution ;-)

Best

Darc

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From: "Hicks, Brian" <Brian.Hicks@imfb.navy.mil>
To: "'wce@bc.sympatico.ca'" <wce@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: 92 Dodge Stealth R/T twin turbo
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 20:32:21 -0700
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0)

I have my stealth at the Bremerton Chrysler Dealer ship. When the car gets
warm it shuts down will restart and dies. The car has been in their for a
month. This is also the third time with each time getting worse and worse.
The car will even die at 95 mph. The dealer ship has even replaced the fuel
pump and filter. Check the pig tail for electrical problems. Called the
chrysler help line. Anybody have any sugguesting of what is happening here?


--------------780A1ACF576AAE7DD57AA5EE--

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 27 06:46:37 1999
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From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
To: "'Hicks, Brian'" <Brian.Hicks@imfb.navy.mil>
Cc: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: 92 Dodge Stealth R/T twin turbo
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 08:46:28 -0500
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This might seem a little odd, but they should replace the coil packs. It
seems to me they are getting hot and giving up.

My fathers Dodge truck was doing the same thing, come out in the morning it
would run for about 10 minutes and die. Wait 20 minutes, truck would start
run for another 5 minutes and die.....rinse, repeat. :-)

Anyway....after replacing the fuel pump, the filter, the ground strap to the
engine (don't ask, I didn't understand the logic either), it was finally
solved by replacing the coil packs.

Hope this helps.

John Basol
System Management Services


-----Original Message-----
From: Hicks, Brian [SMTP:Brian.Hicks@imfb.navy.mil]
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 10:32 PM
To: 'wce@bc.sympatico.ca'
Subject: 92 Dodge Stealth R/T twin turbo

I have my stealth at the Bremerton Chrysler Dealer ship. When the
car gets
warm it shuts down will restart and dies. The car has been in their
for a
month. This is also the third time with each time getting worse and
worse.
The car will even die at 95 mph. The dealer ship has even replaced
the fuel
pump and filter. Check the pig tail for electrical problems.
Called the
chrysler help line. Anybody have any sugguesting of what is
happening here?

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Fri Aug 27 20:13:21 1999
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Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 23:13:12 -0400
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Two things that did this to me on other cars.

1. Cracked or dirty ignition part, heat makes the part expand and
ground out.

2. A pinched wire to the fuel or ignition drove me nuts for 11 months.
It was intermittent and I went over the whole car, I thought, checking
components. Sold the car and the guy found a cracked wire for the fuel
pump.

Ron
>
> I have my stealth at the Bremerton Chrysler Dealer ship. When the car gets
> warm it shuts down will restart and dies. The car has been in their for a
> month. This is also the third time with each time getting worse and worse.
> The car will even die at 95 mph. The dealer ship has even replaced the fuel
> pump and filter. Check the pig tail for electrical problems. Called the
> chrysler help line. Anybody have any sugguesting of what is happening here?
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 28 05:21:45 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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Ok, I have not gotten any answer on my question about any source where to get
the Porterfield pads. I finally got to their web site and I maybe have to order
them by phone.

Now they have three types and I'd like to know what the experiences are with R4,
R4S or R4E are.

Thnaks,
Roger
93'3000GT TT
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 28 06:48:09 1999
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To: robby@swissonline.ch, Team3S List <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
From: Shawn Dewey <sdewey@dmv.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Porterfield brake pads (another try)
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At 02:20 PM 8/28/99 +0200, R.G. wrote:
>Ok, I have not gotten any answer on my question about any source where to get
>the Porterfield pads. I finally got to their web site and I maybe have to
order
>them by phone.
>
>Now they have three types and I'd like to know what the experiences are
with R4,
>R4S or R4E are.

Roger,

The R4S is their street compound and works well at lower temperatures.
The R4 is their standard race compound and takes some heat in them before
they start to grab.
The R4E is their Endurance racing compound and takes quite a bit of heat
before they will start to work.

If this is for street use, I would recommend the R4S (baked of course) The
Porterfields tend to "dust" quite a bit and will leave your wheels black
but for the stopping power, they cannot be beat.

The other two compounds I would only recommend for track use since they do
not stop too well without first getting some heat in the pads.

BTW, the only source I ever have found for Porterfields is directly from
them or maybe from www.racerwholesale.com
but I think they are a standard price but well worth it.

Porterfield Enterprises Ltd.
1767 Placentia Ave.
Costa Mesa, CA 92627

714-548-4470
800-537-6842
fax 714-548-7783


---------


-shawn dewey

'91 Stealth R/T nonturbo 15.426 @ 90.68 (in the happy hands of a new owner!)
'93 3000GT VR4 12.98 @ 107 mph
'91 Talon TSI AWD 13.6 @ 98.8 (the commuter car, yeah right! :)
'95 Talon ESi SCCA Race Car (SSC class #19)
'81 Mazda RX7 GSL SCCA Spec RX7 #32
http://home.dmv.com/~sdewey
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 28 13:37:19 1999
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Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 13:38:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Kuo <amkreadgto@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Porterfield brake pads (another try)
To: Team3S List <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
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Actually, the R4 carbon kevlar race pads do not need heating up for
stopping. They actually work pretty well on the streets, rotor friendly
too, but the only thing is they wear like butter! Also, kinda sqeeky..
like the city bus.. They are the only pads I use on the track; never
has any fadding problem with them.. great pads IMO...

I have no experience with the R4e...

I use the R4s on the streets.. good pad for daily driving.. lasts
pretty long.. and quiet...

And Roger, you can order direct from them, why would you look for other
dealers?

George
'92 RT TT

--- Shawn Dewey <sdewey@dmv.com> wrote:

> Roger,
>
> The R4S is their street compound and works well at
> lower temperatures.
> The R4 is their standard race compound and takes
> some heat in them before
> they start to grab.
> The R4E is their Endurance racing compound and takes
> quite a bit of heat
> before they will start to work.
>
> If this is for street use, I would recommend the R4S
> (baked of course) The
> Porterfields tend to "dust" quite a bit and will
> leave your wheels black
> but for the stopping power, they cannot be beat.
>
> The other two compounds I would only recommend for
> track use since they do
> not stop too well without first getting some heat in
> the pads.
>
> BTW, the only source I ever have found for
> Porterfields is directly from
> them or maybe from www.racerwholesale.com
> but I think they are a standard price but well worth
> it.
>
> Porterfield Enterprises Ltd.
> 1767 Placentia Ave.
> Costa Mesa, CA 92627
>
> 714-548-4470
> 800-537-6842
> fax 714-548-7783
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Sat Aug 28 14:06:23 1999
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To: George Kuo <amkreadgto@yahoo.com>,
Team3S List <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
From: Shawn Dewey <sdewey@dmv.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Porterfield brake pads (another try)
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At 01:38 PM 8/28/99 -0700, George Kuo wrote:
>Actually, the R4 carbon kevlar race pads do not need heating up for
>stopping. They actually work pretty well on the streets, rotor friendly
>too, but the only thing is they wear like butter! Also, kinda sqeeky..
>like the city bus.. They are the only pads I use on the track; never
>has any fadding problem with them.. great pads IMO...
>
>I have no experience with the R4e...
>
>I use the R4s on the streets.. good pad for daily driving.. lasts
>pretty long.. and quiet...

They tend to wear like butter because they are not fully up to operating
temperature, that is also the source of the squealing that you hear on the
street. When the pads come up to race temperature they have much better
stopping power and there is no squeal at all.

Try cooking them (BBQ grill) before using them like I suggested in an
earlier message. You will find that the pad life is greatly increased after
initially heat cycling the pads on the grill.



-shawn dewey

'91 Stealth R/T nonturbo 15.426 @ 90.68 (in the happy hands of a new owner!)
'93 3000GT VR4 12.98 @ 107 mph
'91 Talon TSI AWD 13.6 @ 98.8 (the commuter car, yeah right! :)
'95 Talon ESi SCCA Race Car (SSC class #19)
'81 Mazda RX7 GSL SCCA Spec RX7 #32
http://home.dmv.com/~sdewey
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 29 07:25:22 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "Team3S List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Porterfield brake pads (another try)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:22:27 +0200
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Thanks for the reply guys,

I'm a little confused :

>>I use the R4s on the streets.. good pad for daily driving.. lasts
>>pretty long.. and quiet...
>
>They tend to wear like butter because they are not fully up to operating
>temperature, that is also the source of the squealing that you hear on the
>street. When the pads come up to race temperature they have much better
>stopping power and there is no squeal at all.
>
>Try cooking them (BBQ grill) before using them like I suggested in an
>earlier message. You will find that the pad life is greatly increased after
>initially heat cycling the pads on the grill.


So, does this now belog to the R4s or the R4 ?? Do the R4s wear like butter
or the R4 ? I plan to have one set for winter and summer, but of course my
aim is to have one good set for all seasons :-) The Pagid Orange did took a
long time with the car standing in the snow with -10°C and I hope the R4s
will work quicker. For the track the R4 will maybe work better then.

I therefore order a set R4 and R4s directly from Porterfield.

Thanks again,
Roger
93'3000GT TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 29 07:26:37 1999
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From: lehir@genesiscom.ch (Genesiscon Lehir)
To: <robby@swissonline.ch>, "'Team3S List'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Porterfield brake pads (another try)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:23:44 +0200
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Hi Roger.

Too bad you did NOT ask when we met last week....could have made a ride in
my Stealth :-)

>>Ok, I have not gotten any answer on my question about any source where to
get
>>the Porterfield pads. I finally got to their web site and I maybe have to
order
>>them by phone.

Well, of course, you can do it by phone....be prepared to listen to "MORM"
while
they're maikinf you wait....OR....you can send your order to
timg@globalpac.com

>>Now they have three types and I'd like to know what the experiences are
with R4,
>>R4S or R4E are.

I have the R4S, with the cryo rotors. This combination allows me to stop at
0.98 to 1.0G,
it's acceptable...

Best
Henri

PS: If you have any more questions, you DO have my phone #, right ?

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 29 08:23:40 1999
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To: "stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Porterfield brake pads
References: <001301bef22a$33c5c5a0$dd1de6c2@roger>
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The R4 work great but take a little heat to get to maximum
friction. They can leave positively EVIL brake dust in
race track use, where it comes off superheated; my old stock
set of 93 VR4 non-chrome rims had to have the "dust" chiseled
off by myself, using edge of hacksaw blade, putty knife, screwdriver
etc as it had "armor-plated" onto the rim! Would I use them again?
YES! They were very grippy. They did wear MUCH faster than
the Pagid Blue (race) compound, but the Pagids had less friction/
stopping power. Note, I used the R4 on stock 91-93 (smaller)
front brakes, but the Pagids on the Brembo/Stillen upgrade to 12.2"
rotors; so Pagids wore longer in part because the pads are LARGER
on the Brembo setup. I hope to try the Barbeque Method Of Brakepad
Breakin for the R4 on the Brembos, as Shawn suggests. This should be
the best potential for the Brembo 12.2" front/91-93 smaller rear brake setup...

R4S leave maybe half the brakedust the R4 do. Never tried them on
the track, as I knew they were not the max-ability setup and brakes on
our cars definitely need max effort help.

Pagid blue in my Brembo setup wear VERY SLOWLY, can get multiple
driverschools from a set of fronts, but not as grippy as R4. For the rear,
can use a set of R4 and get maybe YEARS out of them because they are
not used much...

Jack Tertadian

"R.G." wrote:

> >>I use R4s on street; good for daily driving; lasts long, quiet.
> >They wear like butter because not up to operating
> >temperature; that is also source of squealing on the
> >street. When pads come to race temp they have much better
> >stopping power and no squeal.Try cooking them BBQ grill before using.
> >Pad life is greatly increased after initially heat cycling pads on the grill.
>
> Does this apply to R4s or R4? Do R4s wear like butter
> or R4 ? I plan one set winter and summer, but
> aim is one good set for all seasons. Pagid Orange took
> long time to work with snow, -10°C; I hope R4s
> work quicker. For track R4 may work better.
> I ordered set R4 and R4s from Porterfield.
> Roger 93 3000GT TT

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 29 18:02:41 1999
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From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Porterfield brake pads
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 18:00:08 -0700
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Not a Porterfield question but about Performance friction pads. I've been
referred to Performance Friction by several race types, but I haven't seen
much discussion from this group. Has anyone tried their racing pads and
if so do you have any comments.


Jim Berry

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 29 18:12:55 1999
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Sun, 29 Aug 1999 18:12:46 -0700
From: "Kevin Fanciulli" <nebula9@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Blitz Dual Turbo Timer Install -- HELP!
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 19:13:45 -0600
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Blitz owners, please help! The manual that came with this thing is entirely
in japanese!

I'm having trouble installing the Blitz Dual Turbo Timer in my '92 Stealth
RT/TT. I got the harness and have already hooked it up... The unit turns
on, but it doesn't keep the car running after I shut the ignition off -- the
unit just turns off. I'm thinking it has something to do with the other 3
wires that come out the back of the TT unit. Do I need to hook these up?
(they are purple, orange, and white).

Thanks!
-kevin fanciulli
'92 Stealth RT/TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 29 20:19:42 1999
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From: "Oskar" <swede@pclink.com>
To: "Kevin Fanciulli" <nebula9@home.com>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Blitz Dual Turbo Timer Install -- HELP!
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 22:14:33 -0500
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Kevin,

the purple wire connects to the parking brake sensor. The sensor is located
towards the bottom of the parking brake lever. I think you can get to it
without removing the center console if you remove the carpeted trim piece
right next to the parking brake lever. On my '95 there is one wire coming
out of this sensor, but someone rumored that there are two wires on earlier
models. Splice in the purple wire to the wire leading out of this sensor
and the turbo timer will operate while the parking brake is on. Also make
sure to wrap some electrical tape around the white and orange wires. You
will not need to connect these. Good luck!

Oskar
'95 R/T TT

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Fanciulli <nebula9@home.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 8:13 PM
Subject: Team3S: Blitz Dual Turbo Timer Install -- HELP!


>Blitz owners, please help! The manual that came with this thing is
entirely
>in japanese!
>
>I'm having trouble installing the Blitz Dual Turbo Timer in my '92 Stealth
>RT/TT. I got the harness and have already hooked it up... The unit turns
>on, but it doesn't keep the car running after I shut the ignition off --
the
>unit just turns off. I'm thinking it has something to do with the other 3
>wires that come out the back of the TT unit. Do I need to hook these up?
>(they are purple, orange, and white).
>
>Thanks!
>-kevin fanciulli
>'92 Stealth RT/TT
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Sun Aug 29 20:40:26 1999
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From: "Dennis Moore" <stealth@kiva.net>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
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Subject: Team3S: Tech FAQ page??
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 22:44:31 -0500
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Hi All,

We've had several discussions over the months, many of them starting with
the question "What kind of _____ should I buy for my S/3K?" Fill in the
blank: tires, brake pads, BOV, boost timers, etc. BUT, we never seem to
build consensus, or read any summaries of the discussion. We're left with
snippets and snatches of conversation, and the real pearls seem to get
buried in a lot of "I thought ___" discussion. Plus, when a newbie comes on
the scene in a couple weeks, we'll rehash the entire issue again when they
ask the same question.

Are any of you aware of any pages or sites that have compiled summaries of
concrete recommendations? I've just finished a quick perusal of 3si.org and
3000gt.com. 3si.org comes close with their pages on Staged Upgrades and
Mods & Vendors, but I don't see any real recommendations. The best example
of what I'd like to see is the write up that Jeff Curtis (RIP) did on
Recommended Fluids.

Do such pages exist for the other mechanical issues, or am I asking for the
moon?

Thanks.

Dennis Moore
stealth@kiva.net
93 Stealth ES

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 30 07:08:25 1999
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From: "Eric Lotter" <elotter@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Please populate the FAQ section in the NEW messagebard
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 07:08:02 PDT
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Hey all,

This is a request for the members here to make some comments and suggestions
in the new messageboard on 3Si, as well as an opprotunity to populate the
FAQ forum.

check it out @ http://www.3si.org/cgi/Ultimate.cgi

Thanks.

Eric

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 30 08:11:09 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Tech FAQ page??
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Hi Dennis;

Eric's recent posting on populating the FAQ Forum is likely as close as you'll get to
what you'd like to see happen in regards to your question. Because taste's differ and
products rapidly change, it is difficult for any set of recommendations to remain etched
in stone, not to mention remain leading edge. For those reasons alone, the issues are
always rehashed, when it seems they should have been settled the last go round 6 months
ago.

For example, I was recently involved as a help source on an internet Super Apexi
installation. However since I bought and installed mine less than a year ago (with
similar help-what goes around comes around) the product had changed (now a Super Super
Super AVC-R) and my advise had to be limited to plumbing and wiring. How the improved
product performs should be even better, but there may be even better products produced
by the competition now. So, in the end it will all be a matter of opinion. And, you may
find that giving advise or recommending a product is risky business. "Some" who follow
your advise may think you should be responsible for everything that happens to them as
the result of the same. Of course we all know there are the occasional loose canons like
this around, but having one stuck like dog-do to the bottom of your shoe, can be
annoying. So, in the end, read and become involved in as much advise and discussion as
you can, and then make up your own mind based on the type of car you want for the
conditions you will be using it in. Hope this explains the situation.

Best

Darc

Dennis Moore wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> We've had several discussions over the months, many of them starting with
> the question "What kind of _____ should I buy for my S/3K?" Fill in the
> blank: tires, brake pads, BOV, boost timers, etc. BUT, we never seem to
> build consensus, or read any summaries of the discussion. We're left with
> snippets and snatches of conversation, and the real pearls seem to get
> buried in a lot of "I thought ___" discussion. Plus, when a newbie comes on
> the scene in a couple weeks, we'll rehash the entire issue again when they
> ask the same question.
>
> Are any of you aware of any pages or sites that have compiled summaries of
> concrete recommendations? I've just finished a quick perusal of 3si.org and
> 3000gt.com. 3si.org comes close with their pages on Staged Upgrades and
> Mods & Vendors, but I don't see any real recommendations. The best example
> of what I'd like to see is the write up that Jeff Curtis (RIP) did on
> Recommended Fluids.
>
> Do such pages exist for the other mechanical issues, or am I asking for the
> moon?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Dennis Moore
> stealth@kiva.net
> 93 Stealth ES
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 30 08:57:55 1999
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From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
To: Team3S List <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Mr. 3000GT, meet Mr. Curb
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 08:57:48 -0700
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Long story (isn't it always?), but the result was this weekend I introduced
my 3000GT to a cement curb (5-6" ?) head on at about 20-25mph. I'm trying
to figure out what things could have been damaged so I can make sure they're
not or fix em if they are.

The short version :
2AM, no traffic (whew!), entered an intersection (4-5 lanes in each
of the four roads) for a left turn. Was going 35-40mph, and on the brakes.
Turned left, car stuck the turn (as usual), and nose was pointed left.
Cleared intersection and tires hit something slick in the road. Back tires
lost it and swung the car around another 70-80 degrees CCW. Tried to
correct and accelerate (shift weight toward rear to help rear tires stick
again). Not quick enough, overcorrected, spun car around 160-170 degrees CW
(now pointing in same direction as initially entered the intersection) and
there was Mr. Curb, hand extended to meet Mr. 3000GT. I hit it almost
straight on (maybe 3-5 degrees off. Not like I was watching my speedo at
this point, but I'm guessing 20-25mph. BIG thump, front tires ended up
about 2ft onto the sidewalk, front seats almost vertically over the curb.
Car stalled, I about had a heart attack, and thankfully, there weren't any
blue lights around. Clutch in, turn key. Started, backed off curb and
removed myself from the premises to a quiet neighborhood about 200yds away
where I could look the car over.

What I've noticed:

No damage to the tires (some scrapes on the sidewalls!)
No damage to the 16" rims (that I can see)
Scuff marks on the plastic liner on the bottom of the car
Steering wheel is about 3-4 degrees off center
Right toe is noticeably out
Left toe is probably in, but not visibly
It sat all day yesterday, and no fluids leaked
Car drives ok, except alignment is really off

What else should I look at? I've had it jacked up and nothing jumps out at
me as damaged...

Thanks!
--Erik

------ ----------
Erik Gross DuPont, WA
'95 Pearl White 3000GT (base, DOHC) 59,000 mi
Firestone Firehawk 245/50/ZR16 tires, stock wheels
Magnacor KV85 spark plug wires, NGK plugs @ 0.040"
K&N FIPK (57-1500), resonator intact
Mobil 1 10W30 Synthetic w/ OEM oil filter
Occasionally ticking lash adjusters, working on solution
------ ----------
"For we are so little reconciled to time that we are even
astonished at it ... we exclaim, 'How time flies!' as though
the universal form of our experience were again and again a
novelty. It is as strange as if a fish were repeatedly
surprised at the wetness of water. And that would be
strange indeed, unless of course the fish were destined to
become, one day, a land animal."
--C. S. Lewis, Reflections on the Psalms
-------------------------------------------------------------
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 30 09:23:37 1999
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From: "Michael Chan" <michael.chan@hcl.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Not a squaky belt...
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:54:39 -0400
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I posted this problem a while ago and have learned that the actual cause of
that terrible squeaking sound is that one of the bearings in the pulley is
actually causing the noise.

I think that it is the one that drives the alternator. I will be replacing
this soon, however is there anything else that can or should be done?

I have been told that it would take an hour or two to do the job.

Mike
91 TT



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 30 10:02:32 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Mr. 3000GT, meet Mr. Curb
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Hi Erik;

Given the stopping distance ( 2 feet onto the sidewalk) you weren't moving very fast,
and obviously had your foot into the brakes before imapct. . If everything you have
discribed is accurate, then a good front end shop where they do AWD alignments should
fix you up perfectly. Just have them check other steering/suspension components up front
when you take it in for the work (stand there and watch them so you know it really does
need a new tie rod, etc)

Best

Darc

Gross, Erik wrote:

> Long story (isn't it always?), but the result was this weekend I introduced
> my 3000GT to a cement curb (5-6" ?) head on at about 20-25mph. I'm trying
> to figure out what things could have been damaged so I can make sure they're
> not or fix em if they are.
>
> The short version :
> 2AM, no traffic (whew!), entered an intersection (4-5 lanes in each
> of the four roads) for a left turn. Was going 35-40mph, and on the brakes.
> Turned left, car stuck the turn (as usual), and nose was pointed left.
> Cleared intersection and tires hit something slick in the road. Back tires
> lost it and swung the car around another 70-80 degrees CCW. Tried to
> correct and accelerate (shift weight toward rear to help rear tires stick
> again). Not quick enough, overcorrected, spun car around 160-170 degrees CW
> (now pointing in same direction as initially entered the intersection) and
> there was Mr. Curb, hand extended to meet Mr. 3000GT. I hit it almost
> straight on (maybe 3-5 degrees off. Not like I was watching my speedo at
> this point, but I'm guessing 20-25mph. BIG thump, front tires ended up
> about 2ft onto the sidewalk, front seats almost vertically over the curb.
> Car stalled, I about had a heart attack, and thankfully, there weren't any
> blue lights around. Clutch in, turn key. Started, backed off curb and
> removed myself from the premises to a quiet neighborhood about 200yds away
> where I could look the car over.
>
> What I've noticed:
>
> No damage to the tires (some scrapes on the sidewalls!)
> No damage to the 16" rims (that I can see)
> Scuff marks on the plastic liner on the bottom of the car
> Steering wheel is about 3-4 degrees off center
> Right toe is noticeably out
> Left toe is probably in, but not visibly
> It sat all day yesterday, and no fluids leaked
> Car drives ok, except alignment is really off
>
> What else should I look at? I've had it jacked up and nothing jumps out at
> me as damaged...
>
> Thanks!
> --Erik
>
> ------ ----------
> Erik Gross DuPont, WA
> '95 Pearl White 3000GT (base, DOHC) 59,000 mi
> Firestone Firehawk 245/50/ZR16 tires, stock wheels
> Magnacor KV85 spark plug wires, NGK plugs @ 0.040"
> K&N FIPK (57-1500), resonator intact
> Mobil 1 10W30 Synthetic w/ OEM oil filter
> Occasionally ticking lash adjusters, working on solution
> ------ ----------
> "For we are so little reconciled to time that we are even
> astonished at it ... we exclaim, 'How time flies!' as though
> the universal form of our experience were again and again a
> novelty. It is as strange as if a fish were repeatedly
> surprised at the wetness of water. And that would be
> strange indeed, unless of course the fish were destined to
> become, one day, a land animal."
> --C. S. Lewis, Reflections on the Psalms
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 30 11:24:55 1999
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Message-ID: <050f01bef314$e17af5e0$89e586cd@sch>
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: "Dennis Moore" <stealth@kiva.net>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Tech FAQ page??
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:23:54 -0700
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Hey, Dennis, and all,

I've left your entire message quoted below, and it raises some good
questions and suggestions...

I'll be echoing Darcy a bit here, but you're correct... That every
time a newbie arrives in our group and asks questions (that we hashed
out six months before), we cover much of the same material. But what
is also true is that each time we rehash a subject, we have NEW
information, both from the 'experts' who have refined their
'expertise' and some of the other folks, with occasionally different
experiences. That's why IMO, Eric's free site www.3si.org should be
checked when looking for a FAQ page on things that can only be done
one way, such as the "Resonator Mod" for the non-turbos, and many
others. Commercial sites like 3000gt.com may also offer some help.
But be aware that as soon as you create a FAQ page, it becomes old
information unless you update it on a regular, sometimes daily basis.
Eric works his tail off trying do that, so it is probably the first
place to look...

Since all of us here at Team3S are just owners freely volunteering
information to one another, we can't dedicate the time required to
create and constantly update FAQ pages. Naturally, you or anyone else
may volunteer to create a FAQ page and I'll gladly put it up on our
minimalist Team3S site, but we admins are already volunteering a great
deal of time simply keeping the list organized and answering internal
questions from our 450 members. Each of us try to add to our own or
the Team3S pages in one way or another, but all of us have jobs,
lives, families, and are pretty 'maxxed out' with the time we already
spend... We will add pages from time to time (and mirror them on
Eric's site) but it's "slow going"... I've got 4 or 5 pages "in the
can" that are at 95% finished, but it's summer and I'm busy trying to
squeeze out a bit of enjoyment by actually DRIVING my Stealth for a
change... :-)

Further, you'll find that there is rarely ONE answer to a question,
like "what are the best tires". Indeed, just among the seven of us
admins, I think you'll find seven types of favorite tires! Chris runs
Michelin Pilot MXX3, I prefer Nitto Extreme Performance 450, Jim
Matthews has Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4, Mikael with Bridgestone Potenza
S-02 Pole Position, etc, etc. Extrapolate that to 450 other voices,
all with valid opinions, and perhaps you can imagine the enormity of
the task putting together a FAQ page for even ONE thing that can be
done more than one way. Are you volunteering? :-)
We need more of the members to step up and offer their help in even
one area, since it all adds up. Jack T's incredible work on the
Getrag problem, Roger's offerings with WIS and various turbo mods, Ian
Marks currently working on setting up a searchable database for our
archives... These are the kinds of ongoing individual dedication that
will continue to make this list the best source of technical
information for our amazing cars.

So to answer your question, "Am I asking for the moon?", I say that
giving you the moon is "no sweat". It's gathering all those pesky
stars that's the problem... :-)

Best,

Forrest

-----Original Message-----From: Dennis Moore <stealth@kiva.net>

>We've had several discussions over the months, many of them starting
with
>the question "What kind of _____ should I buy for my S/3K?" Fill in
the
>blank: tires, brake pads, BOV, boost timers, etc. BUT, we never seem
to
>build consensus, or read any summaries of the discussion. We're left
with
>snippets and snatches of conversation, and the real pearls seem to
get
>buried in a lot of "I thought ___" discussion. Plus, when a newbie
comes on
>the scene in a couple weeks, we'll rehash the entire issue again when
they
>ask the same question.
>
>Are any of you aware of any pages or sites that have compiled
summaries of
>concrete recommendations? I've just finished a quick perusal of
3si.org and
>3000gt.com. 3si.org comes close with their pages on Staged Upgrades
and
>Mods & Vendors, but I don't see any real recommendations. The best
example
>of what I'd like to see is the write up that Jeff Curtis (RIP) did on
>Recommended Fluids.
>
>Do such pages exist for the other mechanical issues, or am I asking
for the
>moon?






For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 30 11:40:06 1999
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Hey everyone,

I just stumbled upon the DSM Water Injection Mailing List. Those darn DSM
guys beat us to the punch again. ;) But, on the other hand, myself and
John Basol are DSM guys too. :)

Anyways, check out this link for some good Water Injection information:
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/7678//DSM_water_injection/

later,
Curt,
95 R/T TT --> 13.11 @ 105.9 mph
96 GSX --> 14.49 @ 92.9 mph
and author of Minnesota 3/S at: http://www.mn3s.org

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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 30 14:41:40 1999
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From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
To: "Team3S List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Car For Sale
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 16:43:00 -0500
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Hey everyone, I'm considering selling my car.

Asking price will start at 29k. I'll consider any serious offers.

I have well over 30k invested in the car. The new engine has 5,000 miles on
it, the transmission has about 12,000 miles (6 speed)

For more information, please check out my home page before asking any
questions.

The car is clean, and fast. Most components are top of the line.

Brad
Check out my home page: http://home.austin.rr.com/overboost/
E-Mail: bbedell@austin.rr.com ICQ# 3612682



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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 30 15:00:33 1999
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From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'Team3S'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Aluminum y-pipe
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:59:28 -0700
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Folks...

Isn't somebody making a set of aluminum y-pipes? The lip on my stock y-pipe
is broken and I'm having to use the infamous "bungy cord mod". Works fine,
but sure doesn't look very nice. E-mail me privately. Thanks!!!

Looking forward...Chris

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4 (w/HKS Super Flo intake, TEC 15G turbos, bored
and polished throttle body, RC 560cc injectors, HKS fuel pump, GReddy PRofec
A boost controller, G-force ECU upgrade, HKS SBOV, custom intercoolers,
Predator dry cell battery, Magnecore 8.5mm wires, NGK double platinum plugs
gapped at .030", ATR downpipe and test pipe, GReddy catback exhaust, GReddy
turbo timer, Eibach 1" drop progressive springs, Michelin SX MXX3 Pilots)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 30 18:09:15 1999
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 20:09:08 -600
Subject: Team3S: Front vs Rear Turbo?
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Hey all...

Is there any difference between the way a front and rear turbo mount on a 3Si?
I have an upgraded rear turbo from my old Stealth... I'm thinking of mounting
it the place of the front turbo on my new(er) VR4. Are there differences between
the mount points on the two turbos?

Why place the former rear turbo in the front of the VR4? Because it is a heck
of alot easier to do!

Nissa
95 VR-4 with Speed Dimples

Don't mess in the affairs of dragons.
For you are crunchy and go good with ketchup.
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From owner-stealth-3000gt Mon Aug 30 23:05:12 1999
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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 02:04:22 -0400
From: rich shepherd <lionred@earthlink.net>
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Subject: Team3S: nitrous
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i have been thinking of putting nitrous on my 92 vr4 just wanted some
advice on this subject. also a friend of mine just got a 93 rx7 and i am
looking for some info on these cars. like how fast they are 0-60 and are
they faster than a vr4,do they handle better, that kind of
stuff.anything would be nice.
thanks Rich 92 vr4

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