Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Saturday, November 2 2002 Volume
01 : Number 987
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:44:37 -0500
From: Vinny <
vinman3@comcast.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Cleaning the engine bay?
Hey guys,
For my 96 Impala SS I usually spray simple
green on warm engine the power wash it off at one of those self wash
places (low psi). Comes out real nice. Can I assume the same is safe
for the 3000GT VR4?
Thanks
Vinny
p.s. Can some one tell me how the AWD system in our cars work?
and is there a front differential that we need to change the fluid
in?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:48:18 -0500
From: Vinny <
vinman3@comcast.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Monroe Reflex shocks
I know that these aren't adjustable but Monroe make these new REFLEX shocks
that are pretty nice I hear.
Vinny
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:57:10 -0500
From: Vinny <
vinman3@comcast.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Borla Exhaust drone?
Hey Guys,
I am interested in a Exhaust upgrade from
stock. I want the Borla but someone said it was loud.
1) Is it
really?
2) Does it drone inside the cabin?
3) If I do that should I get
the y pipe?
4) I still need my cats so should I upgrade to a highflow
cat?
5) Does this car have O2 sensors that I need to worry about when
switching to a new exhaust?
Thanks guys
Vinny
96 Impala SS
93 GT VR4
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 04:27:04 +0100
From: "Roger L. Skoglund" <
norbolig@online.no>
Subject: Team3S:
Re: Adjustable Spring Kits
Hello,
does anyone have any experience with the products from Ground Control
Suspension Systems ?
Are the kits they offer (with Aluminum Top Hat, Eibach Spring, Adjustable
Spring Seat and Threaded Sleeve) good enough for normally street
use?
Will let say a 1,0" lowering or 1,5" rising of the vehicle (I need more
ground clearance in winter because of conflict between Front Spoiler /
Ground Spoiler and SNOW !) not make any need for wheel alignment ? How
practical is this in everyday use, if you want to change the ride high now
and then (typically a couple of times each year). Will not those Sleeves
get dirty and even rusty, and hard to adjust after some time ...
Appreciate any comments.
Roger
------------------------------
Thanks, Vinny, but we're looking for high performance race shocks, not
stock replacements.
Rich
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 23:03:26 -0500
From: Michael Tanenbaum <
gtg509d@prism.gatech.edu>
Subject:
Team3S: advice needed - car won't start = $$repairs$$
Hi,
How are you? I was doing pretty well until Sunday when my car ('91
Stealth RT
with under 50k miles) wouldn't start. I had it towed to a
mechanic who
realized Wednesday it's an electrical problem that the dealer
would need to
look at - so I had it towed to a Mitsubishi dealer. They
told me today the ECU
doesn't work and the timing would need to be
reset. For an ECU($575) and 9
hours of labor (3 for the ECU and 6 to
reset the timing) at $85/hour the total
would be $1400. Do these
figures sound right and might there be a better
(cheaper) way to solve
this? I live in the Atlanta area.
Also, I don't know if this would make a difference but I was strongly
considering (at the request of my pregnant wife) to sell my car in a few
months
and replace it with a "more practical" car.
Thanks for your help.
- -Michael
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 01:28:58 -0500
From: "anscray" <
anscray@attbi.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Borla Exhaust drone?
1) Yes, Its louder than stock.. Not really loud..
2) I have had Borla on my SL and VR4, and while I didn't notice any drone
in the cabin w/ the change on my SL, I do notice the sound more in the
cabin on the VR4 in higher gears(4th and 5th ).. But I personally like the
sound..Not to mention if you listen to music like I do you wont even
notice..
3)Not really, but Im unsure what your asking here.. exhaust question or
turbo question?
4)Its is not necessary to upgrade to a higher flowing cat but if your
looking to change your whole exhaust setup while your into the job its not
a bad idea..
5)I didn't have any probs with O2 sensor on either the SL or VR4 after
Borla nor do I think I have ever heard any complaints from others.. Your
more likely to have probs messing around with the air filter..
All in all the Borla is a great choice, and very popular among team 3s
members..
Best of Luck,
Scott
94 VR4
Borla, and other goodies.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 22:55:54 -0800
From: "Ken Middaugh" <
kmiddaugh@ixpres.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: How to get the timing belt on right??
The trick to adjusting the timing belt correctly is to get all the slack
out of the belt. A good way to do this is to put a fair amount of
tension on the pulley. Then using a socket on the crank bolt turn it
a few turns one way, then turn it a few turns back the other way. If you
have kept tension on the pulley, then all the slack should be gone.
Then set the tension on the pulley to the specified torque (7 ft lbs ??)
and tighten the bolt.
Turn the crank bolt a bunch of times, again in both directions. Pull
the tensioner pin. Turn the crank both ways again. Let it sit
awhile. After 20 minutes, you should still be able to reinsert
the pin into the tensioner.
Good luck,
Ken
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 00:13:15 -0800
From: "dakken" <
dougusmagnus@attbi.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: advice needed - car won't start = $$repairs$$
3 hours to replace the ECU is very high. I replaced my ECU in about
15 minutes at the 1/4 track with just a screw driver and socket set.
Tell the dealer you will do it yourself. You just have to take 2
kick panels off to get to it and it is held in place by 4 bolts.
Before paying $575 for a new ECU, take it to a TV repair shop and have the
capacitors replaced. I did this on my ECU and it cost me a whopping
$25. The 1st gen cars had bad capacitors in their ECUs and yours may have
ruptured. Mine were leaking when I had them replaced. John Monnin
has a good page on this. Goto:
http://johnmonnin.netfirms.com/ECUrepair.html
$575 is a good price for a new ECU. At least they aren't trying to
rip you off here.
Resetting the timing seems odd. I'm not sure what they mean by
that. When you disconnect the battery from the ECU or put in a new
ECU, the ECU is reset. If they mean check and adjust your engine
timing, then 6 hours is outrageous. Maybe they are counting the time it
takes to phonetically read the instructions? This is something you
can do yourself if you know how to check and adjust the timing.
Refer to a service manual for this.
Altogether $1400 is very high. I would not walk away, I would
run. Even if you had to replace your ECU and do a timing check,
maximum billable time should only be 1 1/2 hours. 1 hour for the ECU
and 1/2 to check and adjust the timing. $575 + $130 = $705. Half of
what they are quoting you.
Walk away from this one and find another mechanic that you can trust or do
it yourself.
What could be more practical than AWD, antilock brakes and enough power to
make it all fun? Just explain how fast you can get her to the
hospital when she goes into labor. If you are really sadistic, point
this out to her repeatedly when she does go into labor.
Doug
92 Stealth RT TT
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 01:07:55 -0800
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Borla Exhaust drone?
My experience with the Borla Cat-back.
A guy in my local 3S club let me use his car for fitment purposes for my
prototype downpipe. Thus I have reasonably good knowledge of it, since I
got to mess with it for 2 days.
1. No. Its very quiet compared to most aftermarket choices.
2. Didn't notice that at all, but this guy had some extra sound proof stuff
put in his doors for the stereo.
3. I am assuming that you are talking about a Y-style downpipe and not the
intake Y-Pipe. Intake Y-pipe is an upgrade all of its own that has nothing
to do with exhaust. A downpipe that eliminated the horrid F connection of
the stock downpipe is what I would consider a must. Preferably done before
the cat-back. From a performance standpoint, the #1 reason to even change
the cat-back is weight, the stock is heavy as sin. The Downpipe is where most of
our exhaust problems are at.
4. Need? You don't need em at all regardless. They are POS. I would suggest
a test pipe over a "high flow". Keep your existing cat just in case, but I
would bet that you do better on emissions without it. CATS ARE A
SCAM!
5. Depending on what car you have. None of the models have O2 sensors in
the cat-back. The second gen (94+) have O2 sensors in the downpipe.
Overall here are pros and cons of the Borla as I see em.
Pros:
Looks nice.
Quiet. (deeper than stock but quiet compared to
most aftermarket) Stainless Steel. (lasts 3 times longer than
galvanized)
Cons:
Stainless (Too heavy)
Does not fit quite right. Its about .5"
too long.
Pricey!!
Has a very poorly designed restrictive neck. System
might as well be 2.5" because of it. (Where the Borla hooks up to your
main cat for some stupid reason they reduced the pipe size to 2.5". The
pipe goes for 2.5" for a while and then becomes 3". Borla IS NOT A TRUE 3"
EXHAUST as its
advertised!)
Overall not a bad system.
Might want to look here for some other exhaust options, this is my new
forming shop. I am not taking orders yet, but am having a waiting list
forming. Will start taking orders in about a month.
Tyson
- -----Original Message-----
From: Vinny
Sent: Thursday, October 31,
2002 6:57 PM
Subject: Team3S: Borla Exhaust drone?
Hey Guys,
I am interested in a Exhaust upgrade from
stock. I want the Borla but someone said it was loud.
1) Is it
really?
2) Does it drone inside the cabin?
3) If I do that should I get
the y pipe?
4) I still need my cats so should I upgrade to a highflow
cat?
5) Does this car have O2 sensors that I need to worry about when
switching to a new exhaust?
Thanks guys
Vinny
96 Impala SS
93 GT VR4
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 01:23:38 -0800
From: "Tigran Varosyan" <
tigran@tigran.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: advice needed - car won't start = $$repairs$$
I agree with Doug, you are being raped. RUN! The one thing that comes to
mind is that since you have 50k on your car they might be talking about
doing the timing belt 60k service. Maybe you misheard them or something.
If that is what they are talking about, its not quite as bad, but WAY too
much! However if you have 50k on your clock now, you do not need to worry about
it for another year. Also doing the 60k has nothing to do with your
ecu.
Far as ECU prices, for a new ECU that's a good price, (last I heard dealer
price was $800 on them) however you can pick up used working ones on eBay
for like $200. All the guys getting AEM and ARC units now are selling
their ECUs for peanuts. I would also strongly suggest the capacitor trick
that Doug talked about. That has worked for many people and if you truly do have
a bad ecu, that will most likely fix it. Its about $3 in capacitors and
any TV/VCR repair place will do it the swap for you for a few $, or you
can do it yourself.
Also, I would suggest posting for help here or on 3si and find a local
member in your area to come out and look at your car. I have a
pocketlogger and anyone with one could tell you if your ECU was working or
not. I would say that 50% chance, there is nothing wrong with your ECU. Those
people a crooks and thieves. They take advantage of people who don't know
their cars and rape them. You are being raped!
I was once told by a dealer that my 92 VR4 had 7 O2 sensors and that I
needed to replace all of them, at $90ea plus labor, to fix my idle
problem. This was when I first bought my car and was afraid to play with
it. Turned out that I needed a screwdriver and some cleaner to un-clog the
IAC and the problem was fixed. In case you don't know, first gen cars only
have 2 O2 sensors :) I don't know what they were gonna do with the other 5
he wanted me to buy...
Get help from an S3 owner in your area and stay away from the dealer unless
you absolutely need a part that nobody else carries.
Tyson
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 10:47:39 +0100
From: Roger Gerl <
roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Borla Exhaust drone?
At 21:57 31.10.2002 -0500, Vinny wrote:
>Hey
Guys,
> I am interested in a Exhaust upgrade from
stock. I want the Borla
>but someone said it was loud.
>1) Is
it really?
Not really
>2) Does it drone inside the cabin?
Yes, you must get in contact with the customer service from Borla that will
send you three inserts to be welded in at specific places
>3) If I do that should I get the y pipe?
Has nothing to do with the exhaust
>4) I still need my cats so should I upgrade to a highflow cat?
Gut the precats
>5) Does this car have O2 sensors that I need to worry about when
>switching to a new exhaust?
Yes it has but no worries, they are not affected.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 02:14:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Adam Knowlton <
knowltodu@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Team3S: What's a good asking price for...
Hey guys,
After spinning the 3rd piston bearing, I had the
engine replaced and
have to sell the car due to
insurance in Jan. coming due plus college
tuition.
Just curious what a fair asking price would be with
the
following:
Rebuilt engine 10 miles
Rebuilt transmission 6 months old
Rebuilt turbos (stock)
transaxle, clutch, flywheel, clutch plate all 6 months
old.
only problem is the wheels are beaten up a little bit
and the ECS has a
short in the left strut so the car's
locked in "sport."
other than that the car is immaculate with no
modifications except
flowmaster exhaust.
What would be a fair asking price in your opinions?
Thanks for everything, I'll definitely refer the buyer
to you guys
Adam
'92 R/T Twin Turbo
------------------------------
I went to the horse's mouth -- C&R -- and asked what the difference was
in the radiators being offered by Darkside and PPE. Here's what he
said:
>Both units are singe pass units that are very similar the main
>difference is that the PPE units comes with Paul's combo on the fans
>and the piece I makes only comes with one slim line 13" fan.
Sorry
>for the confusion.
So neither of them are dual pass radiators.
*sigh*. Does anybody know another source for racing radiators besides PPE,
Darkside and C&R?
Rich/slow old poop
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 07:49:16 -0800
From: "fastmax" <
fastmax@cox.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
advice needed - car won't start = $$repairs$$
I see everybody is jumping on the 6 hour timing reset --- obviously it
doesn't take 6 hours to set the timing unless they're talking about the
timing belt. I
would then be surprised that the ECU and the timing belt both
failed.
Jim Berry
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 03:21:38 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Radiators/official response
There's a million sources.
Just because you limit yourself to a pre-made unit doesn't mean you cant
call Griffin/etc/etc/etc/etc and get one made.
> I went to the horse's mouth -- C&R -- and asked what the
difference
> was in the radiators being offered by Darkside and PPE.
Here's what he
> said:
>
> >Both units are singe pass
units that are very similar the main
> >difference is that the PPE
units comes with Paul's combo on the fans
> >and the piece I makes
only comes with one slim line 13" fan. Sorry
> >for the
confusion.
>
> So neither of them are dual pass radiators.
>
> *sigh*. Does anybody know another source for racing radiators besides
> PPE, Darkside and C&R?
***
NEW Supra Product!
6/6 Nylon suspension bushings are available
for MK3 supras NOW! Check out
http://www.speedtoys.com/bushings.html
for details. This is the only planned purchase -ever- of these, until
October 5th.
***
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:22:05 -0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Radiators/official response
Problem you then run into is are they willing to make less than 5 some
places even require 10 confirmed orders before they will build
one...........
Someone else want to tackle this, I would but with work volumes spiking
almost 375% I just don't have any time to do the leg work/haggling
- -----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Mohler
[mailto:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 4:22
AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Radiators/official response
There's a million sources.
Just because you limit yourself to a pre-made unit doesn't mean you cant
call Griffin/etc/etc/etc/etc and get one made.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 03:27:21 -0600 (CST)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Radiators/official response
Hell, Griffin made one for a guy on the Supra list about a year before
anyone was interested in doing it.
There's a difference between:
A) Nobody has one
B) I don't wanna pay an extra $75-100 to be a one-off purchase for
them, but at least I'll have the right part
Come find me in say..6 months, Speedtoys might even fund the process +
5-10 orders..but you'll pay more thru me than if y'all organize for the
common good and do it yourselves.
On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Furman, Russell wrote:
> Problem you then run into is are they willing to make less than 5 some
> places even require 10 confirmed orders before they will build
>
one...........
>
> Someone else want to tackle this, I would but
with work volumes
> spiking almost 375% I just don't have any time to do
the leg
> work/haggling
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 10:24:34 -0700
From: "Paul Prentis" <
paul@ppeengineering.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Radiators/official response
I'm sorry Rich, whoever you talked to at C&R has no idea what they are
talking about. You can clearly see from the pictures on my website that
the radiator is a dual pass. The inlet and outlet are on the same side.
That means that the fluid goes in the top flows to the left then back to
the right and out the bottom. Not only is it a DUAL PASS, it is THICKER
than stock, making is the most effective radiator on the market for the
3S.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:32:13 -0500
From: "Furman, Russell" <
RFurman2@MassMutual.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Radiators/official response
I have already accepted the fact that regardless of anything else,
modifications and upgrades tend to cost more for our cars. SO price
isn't the concern but I want the most bang for my buck dammit
Jeff I would take the lead but trying to get damn good prices for the
coilover group buy, and my full time job are just eating up all my time at
the moment. If anyone really wants to do this now they can take the
lead otherwise, after the first of the year I will run point.
Russ F
CT
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 10:38:15 -0700
From: "Schmied, Rene" <
Rene.Schmied@gov.ab.ca>
Subject:
Team3S: Re: Starter
Hello,
Can anyone offer suggestions for replacing the starter in a 1994 N/A
RT?
thanks in advance
This communication is intended for the use
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if you are not the intended recipient of this communication, and do not
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destroyed.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 10:36:42 -0700
From: "Paul Prentis" <
paul@ppeengineering.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: polished radiator brackets??
Riyan,
I make stainless steel radiator brackets for
my aluminum radiator. They should fit with the stock radiator as
well. You can polish them up with no worries of rusting. If you are
interested give me an email at:
sales@ppeengineering.com
------------------------------
Should we leave Team3S out of further discussions and leave this on the
racer list only? It's getting to be a little too much gory detail for non
racers.
Anyway, I asked C&R again about the radiator deal, and here's what
he
said:
>OK I apologies because after reviewing the PPE drawing the radiator
we
build for them is a dual pass and the dual pass unit WILL be more
efficient. Sorry for the confusion.
OK, PPE has a dual pass and Darkside has a single pass.
Now I'll ask Darkside if he's going to offer a dual pass.
Hey...$200 extra means a LOT to me, if not to all you guys.
Rich/slow old poop
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 21:30:26 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Cleaning the engine bay?
>> Can some one tell me how the AWD system in our cars work?
Some
info at my links below.
>> is there a front differential that we need to change the fluid
in?
The front diff is inside the transaxle and shares oil with the transaxle.
Gear
oil change tips are in my web page below.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 21:46:49 -0000
From: "Jeff Lucius" <
jlucius@stealth316.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Re: Starter
I have starter removal instructions on my web page below if that is what
you
are asking. They are for a '92 turbo but should be similar to what you
need to
do for your '94 NA. The starter is one of the easier components to
replace.
If you are asking about upgrades or non-OEM replacements, I don't know
about
those.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 16:31:29 -0600
From: "
merritt@cedar-rapids.net" <
merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject:
Team3S: Darkside's response
Darkside is now offering a dual pass radiator,
apparently the same C&R Racing radiator that PPE sells. It is also a
bolt-in replacement. Here's his response to my query:
My query:
So, are you going to offer a dual pass radiator like PPE does for the
3000GT? Or are you staying with your single pass?
His response:
>dual pass radiator, shroud and 2 12" fans is $625 shipped!!!!!! only
>$25
more than the single price!
Joshua Laliberte
Dark Side Racing
(401) 640-1096
I am ordering one on Monday, when I get back from a trip.
Rich/slow old poop
94 VR4
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:35:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Roger Ludwig <
yiotta@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S: Does
anyone know "Boomer" from the Rotor Group Buy?
Anyone, please??? I need boomers phone number or email
address, still
trying to get these rotors switched
out....
Roger L
F15DOC
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 16:40:22 -0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Re: Starter
From: "Schmied, Rene" <
Rene.Schmied@gov.ab.ca>
> Can
anyone give suggestions for replacing a 1994 N/A RT starter?
-
--------------------------------->
Rick Pierce just did mine recently ('94 Stealth NT) in about 1/2 an hour,
in my driveway. He just used 2 stock jacks (since he's such a trim
SOB) and made quick work of it. I had ordered the starter from one
of the Team3S "Good Guys" dealers, San Rafael Mitsubishi (great discounted
price, but I don't remember what it was). Rick pointed out to me
that the new, replacement starters have the screws in a slightly different
position, so one of them didn't fit exactly-- He explained
that this was no problem, and he just didn't use that screw. If you don't
know your engine, use the manual. But if you're as knowledgeable as
Rick, just jack up both sides of the front and get to work. Easy gig
on my car, since I don't have the engine dust shield under my car. He
said that removing it is a lot more trouble than replacing the
starter. I have a couple of pix of the old & new starter that I
was going to put on a web page on the Team3S site (but I haven't had time
yet). It's hard to tell which screw does not line up, but it will be
obvious when you get to work. Photos are here:
www.Team3S.com/Images/starter1.jpgwww.Team3S.com/Images/starter2.jpg
Best,
Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 01:54:09 -0800
From: "Bob Forrest" <
bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: New possibility re: spring/strut/coilover discussion. ..
I've already sent him an email about the two systems above, and asking for
comparisons when he gets the specs. But he's away racing this
weekend. I'll stay on top of it as soon as he returns. I very
much agree with you - I like the idea of us talking this up on the Team3S list
and finding out what the best options are-- The "best" system, the
"best" price, and the "best" bang for the buck. These will probably
be 3 different systems, and some folks will have different priorities than
others. But we should find out many more details before we jump in and a
bunch of us each drop $1500 or so. I think the target of the first
of the year for starting things makes sense, unless we can collect all our
info before the holidays (just over two weeks). Personally, I research the
hell out of something before I decide to go spending 4-figure$ on
anything. Let's stay on this.
Best,
Forrest
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 09:12:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Roger Ludwig <
yiotta@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S: New
spring/strut/coilover discussion. ..
Thanks for doing this Bob, I currently have the ground
control coilover
setup and although the car looks
great lowered with them... I was looking at
putting
the TEINS on.
We should list a few things that might be
personal
priorities and then have all of these setups compared
against the
wish lists.
Some examples (not all inclusive) might be:
Handling characteristics
- high speed
- low
speed
Quality of workmanship
- Reliability of
product
- Quality of fit
Difficulty of
adjustment
- ride height
- stiffness
adjustment
Comfort
Installation difficulty
Cost
Integration with
other suspension components.
OK, just some thoughts. If the group likes this idea,
then lets add and
remove some of these options until
we get a good set of variables to allow a
good
comparison. I am definitely in the market right now
and will
wait until we have thoroughly researched it.
Nice Job!
Roger L
F15DOC
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1
#987
***************************************
