Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth  Friday, September 21 2001  Volume 01 : Number 620




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 23:31:40 -0400
From: "Dennis and Anita Moore" <stealth@quixnet.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Hatchback Floor/Board

My Stealth has the bins on both sides.  But since mine isn't a turbo, there
may be some differences.  Some folks have removed their bins to install
stereo equipment, maybe someone will sell/give you their spares.

As for the other half of your request, do you need the carpet or just the
board?  If you have access to a jigsaw and some plywood, you could cut your
own board.  If I can find a big enough piece of paper I can trace a template
for you.  (This might not fit exactly right if there are differences between
a turbo and non-turbo trunk space.)  If you need the carpet AND board, I'd
recommend talking to a car interior shop and see what they recommend.

Dennis Moore
93 Stealth ES

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Magnus3315 .
To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 10:41 PM
Subject: Team3S: Hatchback Floor/Board

I have a old 91 3000gt vr-4. I was wondering if anyone else had to replace
the floor/mat piece for the hatchbackk, Like the wood piece. Anyone make one
or have any suggestions how to make one? Also does the left side under it
have a plastic bin like the right? I don't know, mine doesn't, so I was
checking.

Thnx, Amar.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 23:32:58 -0400
From: "Dennis and Anita Moore" <stealth@quixnet.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: Poor Gas mileage and getting worse

OK, I'll add my 2hp to this data call:

Normally 23-25 MPG, northern Virginia traffic, don't jackrabbit too much.
Highway runs through West Virginia terrain, 75-80 mph, 25-26 MPG
Once got 32 MPG on a run from Indy to Chicago, but usually 26-28 MPG on flat
runs.
Worst I ever got was 19 MPG, that was while stuck in Chicago traffic for 2
hours.

IMO, I'm not a particularly aggressive driver.  I like to WOT when it makes
sense, but I'm not the type to slice and dice through traffic.

Dennis Moore
93 Stealth ES, N/A, no mods (except the headlights, and they don't count)

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:17:25 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Team3S: Sears Point NASA event --- Oct 27/28

I going to try this one again --- tha last one kinda got caught up in the
terrorist attack.

I'm trying to drum up interest in the Sears Point event --- I'm not real
keen on the abreviated track layout but a couple of our members have
tried it and said it was OK.

End of October should be nice and cool and we have a month and a
half to get a good turnout.

I had a good time at Thunderhill and I'd like to meet some of you folks
again ---- Jim, buy a damn car will you.

http://www.nasaproracing.com/typ_html_nav.asp?ObjectID=6128

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 20:54:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Sears Point NASA event --- Oct 27/28

My wife and I will be there.

Bob:  I got cher battery.

On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, Jim Berry wrote:

> I going to try this one again --- tha last one kinda got caught up in the
> terrorist attack.
>
> I'm trying to drum up interest in the Sears Point event --- I'm not real
> keen on the abreviated track layout but a couple of our members have
> tried it and said it was OK.
>
> End of October should be nice and cool and we have a month and a
> half to get a good turnout.
>
> I had a good time at Thunderhill and I'd like to meet some of you folks
> again ---- Jim, buy a damn car will you.
>
> http://www.nasaproracing.com/typ_html_nav.asp?ObjectID=6128
* Porterfield Brake Wholesaler..just ask! *


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 23:47:55 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: FW: Team3S: 1991 3000 GT VR-4

> 1) What are some good seat covers?

Good point.  Most people with the leather seats keep them leather.  Looks
nice and feels good.  I have only seen one or two seat covers on the cloth
cars and can find pics of them if needed.

> 2) How do you replace the head lights with better ones? Like piaa ones,
> remember it's 1991, sooo.. the 9006 Piaa ones don't fit.

We just had this on the list.  I'm not sure it is in the archives yet.  I
think the result was that higher wattage lights (if you can afford the PIAA
ones) are over 85 watts for headlights and over 55 watts for driving lights
and that starts to fry the OEM wiring harness and fuse box.  However,
drop-ins are also not recommended sometimes.  I have seen cars with lights
so it doesn't kill it right away but maybe long term things are not horrible
either.

> 3) How do you fix the little 12 volt plug in thing there?

You mean the power outlet next to the change tray/cruise control/Active Aero
button or the cigarette lighter one?  I had my car in the shop and they
fixed the power outlet one.  Simple wiring stuff I guess.

> 4) what are some good wheels that are cheap?

None.  Wheels have to be strong enough (forged or cast I believe) to hold a
4,000 pound car.  This makes them not cheap.  Then they are only 17" or 18"
which makes them not cheap.  Chrome plating or powder coating or aluminum
coating, etc. makes them not cheap.  I think www.800wheels.com is a good
place to start.  At least they have our OEM wheels.  Others have aftermarket
ones but be careful to make sure they can withstand the weight of our cars.
I can provide links to Gatherings with pictures of wheels if necessary.

> 5) Any advice, this is my first car. All experience welcome.

Congrats and welcome.  One website I just saw said, "Imagine starting the
commute every day with a countdown."  I still remember my first drive in the
car.  It was seriously like counting down on a roller coaster.  Just sit
back, watch the list, then post some simple questions (remember to make the
subject pertain to the topic too).  Enjoy one of the best cars ever made.
Don't forget to shift GINGERLY from first to second and second to third or
you will also be replacing your first transmission at about $5,000.

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4
www.speedtoys.com/~dschilberg

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 00:16:23 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rotor Warpage?

True that solves the problem for "short" time (each person's duration here
is different though) but it WILL return.  Mine were put on after turning and
the next stop from about 80 mph gave me the same warped feeling.  Yes they
were fine below 40 mph but who drives this speed approaching the end of the
front straight?

I have not found anyone yet or has never had the warping return.  I think
our friend up in Seattle is our last hope (he had all four corners of PF
cryo rotors and new pads but first stop they warped but he used them for a
driving event anyway).  I'll be interested in seeing if these worked or the
guy who asked PF for an exchange since they were about 0.02" out of true.

Cooling does not help when the first stop after re-installing the
freshly-turned rotors is from 60 mph.  Nobody in the world should have their
rotors thump-thump at this speed.  That's why I will put the $40 per rotor
charge for cryo-treating toward another set of rotors or pads next time.  At
least, until someone gets no warping.

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4

- -----Original Message-----
From: Geoff Mohler
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 8:27 PM

Probly wont hurt.  Cryo helps resist warping, but doesnt prevent it.

they are returning to normal.  Might be a good idea to get em shaved and
trued, thats solved everyone elses problem for the most part.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 00:18:36 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rotor Warpage?

Although as a follow up I think it might have partially been my fault the
first time in not cooling them correctly (letting the car sit too long after
a cool down lap) since the first time they were turned they had "spider"
cracks in the surface which most likely went all the way through the rotor.
You could not feel this when you rubbed your finger along the surface but
your fingernail would catch the edge of the small cracks.  If your rotors do
not look like this but are warped then get them turned and cross your
fingers.  If they look like a record player then just get them turned.
Those might not be the "heat cracking" that does in the rotor.

- --Flash!

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 00:32:59 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Hatchback Floor/Board

Heh.  Lucky me I have a full-size spare back here so I can't use my
wood/carpet piece and the bind are not much use when carting around a 2-ton
floor jack and toolbag.

Amar (or anyone else) if you want this then let me know.  I can also trace
it for anyone.  Lemme know (off list).  I don't know how much difference
there is between the first and second gen though.  Not much I imagine.

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4

- -----Original Message-----
From: Dennis and Anita Moore
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 11:32 PM

My Stealth has the bins on both sides.  But since mine isn't a turbo, there
may be some differences.  Some folks have removed their bins to install
stereo equipment, maybe someone will sell/give you their spares.

As for the other half of your request, do you need the carpet or just the
board?  If you have access to a jigsaw and some plywood, you could cut your
own board.  If I can find a big enough piece of paper I can trace a template
for you.  (This might not fit exactly right if there are differences between
a turbo and non-turbo trunk space.)  If you need the carpet AND board, I'd
recommend talking to a car interior shop and see what they recommend.

Dennis Moore
93 Stealth ES

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Magnus3315 .
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 10:41 PM

I have a old 91 3000gt vr-4. I was wondering if anyone else had to replace
the floor/mat piece for the hatchbackk, Like the wood piece. Anyone make one
or have any suggestions how to make one? Also does the left side under it
have a plastic bin like the right? I don't know, mine doesn't, so I was
checking.

Thnx, Amar.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:53:04 -0700
From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Sears Point NASA event --- Oct 27/28

We'll be there.  And if we have enough of a turnout, I'll get us set up on
the NASA schedule with a Team3S parade lap (or better).  This way, even
folks who just came to watch can get out and have a run around the track.
I'll add to the CC list above and let all on the west coast know about it--
Bay Area - Southland - PNW contingents.  I'd love for this to be a major
showing.  And with the shortened track, even the NT drivers can have a good
time.  Sears Point is a great course, and one where AWD turbos can really
show their stuff around the twisties!

Stay on it guys - we can have quite a gathering at this one!

Best,

Forrest

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
>
> My wife and I will be there.
>
> On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, Jim Berry wrote:
>
> > I going to try this one again --- tha last one kinda got caught up in
the
> > terrorist attack.
> >
> > I'm trying to drum up interest in the Sears Point event --- I'm not real
> > keen on the abreviated track layout but a couple of our members have
> > tried it and said it was OK.
> >
> > End of October should be nice and cool and we have a month and a
> > half to get a good turnout.
> >
> > I had a good time at Thunderhill and I'd like to meet some of you folks
> > again ---- Jim, buy a damn car will you.
> >
> > http://www.nasaproracing.com/typ_html_nav.asp?ObjectID=6128

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 07:25:03 -0400
From: "Andie W. Lin" <andiewlin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1 #619

If by "PF" you mean Performance Friction/Pinnacle Brake Technology, then you
have, perhaps, the highest quality rotors available on the aftermarket for
street use.

There are the types of rotor warpage.  One type is what I call "cold
warpage" and the other is "hot ghost warpage".  Cold warpage is a permanent
warpage which you will feel at all speeds and temperatures - it is typically
the result of poor casting and quality control.  Since you are only
experiencing a brake shudder when the rotors are hot/heated up after a hard
brake application, and since PF has incredible quality control on their
rotors, you do not have "cold warpage".  "Hot ghost warpage" becomes evident
only when the rotors reach a certain temperature, such as when they become
hot after hard braking; it results from uneven heating and cooling during
the heat tempering process and/or the final cryogenic treatment of the
rotor.  This type of warpage in the rotor is NOT evident when they are
cold - you can literally put the rotor on a lathe with a feeler gauge at
room temperature, and it will spin true...but heat it up to some arbitrary
temperature, say, 500deg, and the warping becomes evident.

Now, there is a third cause of brake shudder, which is NOT caused by a
warped rotor, but can often lead many to believe that their rotors are
warped.  This third cause is "friction material film transfer", which is
essentially the irregular, non-uniform deposition/transfer of brake friction
material onto the rotor surface.  All high-performance compounds exhibit
this phenomenon to a certain extent at various temperatures, with some
compounds being very hard offenders, indeed.  When the brake friction
material is deposited or smeared onto the rotor surface in an inrregular
pattern, upon application of the brakes, the brake pad will
"grab-and-release" on the film transfers due to chemical adhesion, resulting
in a brake shudder, and thus simulating what is often assumed to be a warped
rotor.

Thus, I have to ask...what brake compound are you using?

andie w lin
vp marketing and product r&d
carbotech engineering
http://www.carbotecheng.com
tel: 877.899.5024 | fax: 954.493.9669

::-----Original Message-----
::Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 19:55:53 EDT
::From: DiABLoCarAudio@aol.com
::Subject: Team3S: Rotor Warpage?
::
::expanding due to the high heat?  Why?  I have PF Cryo Rotors.  I

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 21:38:43 +1000
From: "Joel Singh" <joelsingh@iprimus.com.au>
Subject: Team3S: Stalling problem

lately my car keeps stalling at idle, whenever I pull up at the lights or
stop anywhere it stalls.
Would anyone know what the problem could be.  I haven't had the car for
long, it is a japanese imported
GTO Twin turbo, 1992, manual. When driving it does not miss. drives fine,
except at idle it stalls.
Any advice would be highly appreciated,

Joel. From downunder.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:34:45 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Leaded race fuel

I am using the stuff that costs a buck at O'Reilly's.  I am only putting in
1 bottle, but then again, in Texas we have 93 octane anyhow.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Curtis McConnel [SMTP:CMcConnel@Pulte.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 4:27 PM
> To: 'Jannusch, Matt'; Team3s@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Leaded race fuel
>
> What are the better brands to run? I would much rather run this stuff than
> $4.00 a gallon 102 octane. When it says adds 5 points, is that one bottle
> to
> a full tank of gas and now your tank is 5 points higher? (91 + 5 = 96)In
> this case should I run 2 bottles to reach 101?
>
> Curtis 
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jannusch, Matt [mailto:mjannusch@marketwatch.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 3:28 PM
> To: Curtis McConnel; Team3s@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Leaded race fuel
>
>
> > Let me know if I'm wrong but I thought someone mentioned not
> > to use octane boost. I was thinking of using it until I saw
> > it can cause problems.
>
> Its okay to use, but be aware that when the bottle says "increases octane
> by
> 5 points!" that it is from 92.0 to 92.5 and not 92 to 97 octane, so you
> don't want to be dumping it in and running tons more boost thinking that
> it
> is safe.
>
> -Matt
> '95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:44:59 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Hatchback Floor/Board

somebody probably cutout the left bin to install an amplifier. That's what
they did to mine.  The "Wood piece" is acutally fiberboard.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Magnus3315 . [SMTP:black_synn666@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 9:41 PM
> To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: Team3S: Hatchback Floor/Board
>
> I have a old 91 3000gt vr-4. I was wondering if anyone else had to replace
> the floor/mat piece for the hatchbackk, Like the wood piece. Anyone make
> one or have any suggestions how to make one? Also does the left side under
> it have a plastic bin like the right? I don't know, mine doesn't, so I was
> checking.

> Thnx, Amar.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:46:29 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: backing plate --- AWD

Way to go Jim!  Are the stock fronts going on a  1st gen or 2nd gen VR4?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Berry [SMTP:fastmax@home.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 9:34 PM
> To: team3S@stealth-3000gt.st; 3sracers@speedtoys.com
> Subject: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: backing plate --- AWD
>
> Sorry, but I can't undo a tin snip mod, besides the backing plate is
> steel.
> I'm looking at putting the stock front 4 piston rotors/calipers on the
> rear
> and if it doesn't work I gotta put it back together. With the exception of
> the E-brake it doesn't look to bad.
>
> If it works I could have four wheel carbon/carbon setup for a mere
> $3400 ---- yeah right, like that's gonna happen.
>
>         Jim berry
> ========================================
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
> To: <3sracers@speedtoys.com>
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 7:32 PM
> Subject: Re: 3S-Racers: backing plate --- AWD
>
> > The universal tool.
> >
> > Tin snips.
> >
> > On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, Jim Berry wrote:
> >
> > > All right boys and girls, any tricks to removing the E-brake backing
> plate on
> > > the rear of an AWD car. I've removed the rotor, axle shaft, misc brake
> parts,
> > > two bolts on the backing plate and dust shield and the nut that holds
> the brake
> > > shoe pivot but the plate doesn't want to move. The book says nothing
> but I
> > > can't see anything else holding it in place.
> > >
> > >         Jim Berry

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:34:43 -0500
From: "Morice, Francis" <francis.morice@retek.com>
Subject: Team3S: O2 Sensor volt. found

For those interested I found the info on the voltage range for the rear O2
sensors to set a code on the Cali and 96+ cars. It is on page 13a-30 and
13a-31 of the CD manual.

Francis
'96 RT/TT

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 06:41:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 1991 3000 GT VR-4

Some answers:

2) Autopal makes a replacement headlight that uses a replaceable H4
bulb.
http://www.autooptiks.com/

3) The front one just pops out (whole plastic piece). The back one
near the floor console storage box is bolted in (if I remember
correctly). For the back one you will have to take the side covers
off (I think).
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius6/j6-2-floorconsole.htm

4) Cheapest good wheels for our cars might be Enkei RP01 in 17x9 at
$176 each at Discount Tire ($205 in 18x9). The stock ones are not
cheap. Look at page 981 in the Mitchell Guide below. In fact, my
forged SSR GT1 18x9x38mm wheels are cheaper than the list price for
stock TT/VR4 wheels.
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/blucius/b-2-mitchell.htm

5) Look through the web sites devoted to our cars. I list hundreds of
them on the giant Links and Garage Pages at my web site (which you
will also find partially duplicated by some Team3S members). The
Team3S FAQ page is a good place to start.
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius/1-links-t.htm
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius/1-repair.htm

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Magnus3315 .
To: Team3s@stealth-3000gt.st
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 3:23 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: 1991 3000 GT VR-4

These are just some questions I had about my 3000 GT VR-4.
1) What are some good seat covers?
2) How do you replace the head lights with better ones? Like piaa
ones, remember it's 1991, sooo.. the 9006 Piaa ones don't fit.
3) How do you fix the little 12 volt plug in thing there?
4) what are some good wheels that are cheap?
5) Any advice, this is my first car. All experience welcome.
Thanks, Amar.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:59:21 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Stalling problem

look for a vacuum leak in the intake, but problem sounds mostly like a bad
Idle Servo Controller (ISC).  Does this happen only when the A/C is turned
on?  The idle speed is supposed to increas when the A/C is on.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel Singh [SMTP:joelsingh@iprimus.com.au]
> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 6:39 AM
> To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: Team3S: Stalling problem
>
> lately my car keeps stalling at idle, whenever I pull up at the lights or
> stop anywhere it stalls.
> Would anyone know what the problem could be.  I haven't had the car for
> long, it is a japanese imported
> GTO Twin turbo, 1992, manual. When driving it does not miss. drives fine,
> except at idle it stalls.
> Any advice would be highly appreciated,
>
> Joel. From downunder.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:14:21 -0400
From: "Andie W. Lin" <andiewlin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rotor Warpage?

If by "PF" you mean Performance Friction/Pinnacle Brake Technology, then you
have, perhaps, the highest quality rotors available on the aftermarket for
street use.

There are three types of rotor warpage:

One type is what I call "cold warpage" and the other is "hot ghost warpage".
Cold warpage is a permanent warpage which you will feel at all speeds and
temperatures - it is typically the result of poor casting and quality
control.  Since you are only experiencing a brake shudder when the rotors
are hot/heated up after a hard brake application, and since PF has
incredible quality control on their rotors, you do not have "cold warpage".
"Hot ghost warpage" becomes evident only when the rotors reach a certain
temperature, such as when they become hot after hard braking; it results
from uneven heating and cooling during the heat tempering process and/or the
final cryogenic treatment of the rotor.  This type of warpage in the rotor
is NOT evident when they are cold - you can literally put the rotor on a
lathe with a feeler gauge at room temperature, and it will spin true...but
heat it up to some arbitrary temperature, say, 500deg, and the warping
becomes evident.

Now, there is a third cause of brake shudder, which is NOT caused by a
warped rotor, but can often lead many to believe that their rotors are
warped.  This third cause is known as "friction material film transfer" or
"friction material smearing", which is essentially the irregular,
non-uniform deposition/transfer of brake friction material onto the rotor
surface.  All high-performance compounds exhibit this phenomenon to a
certain extent at various temperatures, with some compounds being very hard
offenders, indeed.  When the brake friction material is deposited or smeared
onto the rotor surface in an irregular pattern, upon application of the
brakes, the brake pad will "grab-and-release" on the film transfers due to
chemical adhesion, resulting in a brake shudder, and thus simulating what is
often assumed to be a warped rotor.

Thus, I have to ask...what brake compound are you using?

Regards,

Andie Lin

andie w lin
vp marketing and product r&d
carbotech engineering
http://www.carbotecheng.com
tel: 877.899.5024 | fax: 954.493.9669

::-----Original Message-----
::Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 19:55:53 EDT
::From: DiABLoCarAudio@aol.com
::Subject: Team3S: Rotor Warpage?
::
::expanding due to the high heat?  Why?  I have PF Cryo Rotors.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:17:39 -0400
From: MAJA <mxjashogar@home.com>
Subject: Team3S: Spark Plugs

Hello I want to know if the NGK Platinum spark plugs are available for
less money than here in Canada . They want $ 53.00 Can plus15% tax on
top of that for one . I am thinking about installing the Bosch ones due
to the expense . Can I get 100,000 Clicks on those ? Thanks
Garry 93ES Stealth

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 07:48:20 -0700
From: bob <rakoch.bmd@primusint.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Spark Plugs

I got jabbed for 16.50 ea. USD with no tax but paid about 4.00 to ship them.
Do as the board says and get a real nice torque wrench with the money you saved.
I even got a free lawn chair with my torque wrench..........this car is nothing but a giver.

search the net to find them...most speed shops for our cars will have them and if you look hard enough you might
find them for 12.50.....good luck.....BTW the gasket is about 14.00 from the local parts shop

enjoy the day...........

bob K.


- -----Original Message-----
From: MAJA [SMTP:mxjashogar@home.com]
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 7:18 AM
To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Team3S: Spark Plugs

Hello I want to know if the NGK Platinum spark plugs are available for
less money than here in Canada . They want $ 53.00 Can plus15% tax on
top of that for one . I am thinking about installing the Bosch ones due
to the expense . Can I get 100,000 Clicks on those ? Thanks
Garry 93ES Stealth

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:04:10 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 1991 3000 GT VR-4

>4) Cheapest good wheels for our cars might be Enkei RP01 in 17x9 at
>$176 each at Discount Tire ($205 in 18x9). The stock ones are not
>cheap.

Do you think those teeny tiny spokes can withstand the cornering forces of
open tracking? When I bought my Milli Miglias, the wheel wizards at
TireRack said to be careful about skinny spokes like that. He didn't
mention the Enkeis in particular, but he said very few wheels work on our
cars.

Rich

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:59:00 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1 #619

A
>Now, there is a third cause of brake shudder, which is NOT caused by a
>warped rotor, but can often lead many to believe that their rotors are
>warped.  <snip>.  When the brake friction
>material is deposited or smeared onto the rotor surface in an inrregular
>pattern, upon application of the brakes, the brake pad will
>"grab-and-release" on the film transfers due to chemical adhesion, resulting
>in a brake shudder, and thus simulating what is often assumed to be a warped
>rotor.

When I was runnng at Road America one day and the brakes started shuddering
at the beginning of a session,  my instructor said, "Don't worry, it'll go
away." Sure enough, after a couple of hot laps, it went away.  Musta been
what Andie is talking about. They were Pagid Blacks, and they only did it
once.

Rich

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 08:10:26 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 1991 3000 GT VR-4

They work on mine --- it was/is a concern and as a result I clean and inspect
my rims before an event. I talked to Tire Rack before I bought and they said
"sure no problem" --- yeah right, like I'm going to believe a 22 year old
salesman who was selling underwear at Sears three month ago [ you may
detect some cynicism here --- old age does that to you ]

        Jim Berry
=====================================================

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
To: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>; <Team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: 1991 3000 GT VR-4

> >4) Cheapest good wheels for our cars might be Enkei RP01 in 17x9 at
> >$176 each at Discount Tire ($205 in 18x9). The stock ones are not
> >cheap.
>
> Do you think those teeny tiny spokes can withstand the cornering forces of
> open tracking? When I bought my Milli Miglias, the wheel wizards at
> TireRack said to be careful about skinny spokes like that. He didn't
> mention the Enkeis in particular, but he said very few wheels work on our
> cars.
>
> Rich

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:23:36 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Track wheels

Actually, the strongest track wheel of all is a stocker. I ran 1997 ES
wheels for two seasons (sold 'em to Flash, who still uses them). For
anybody who needs a set of track wheels, maybe the best solution would be
to put the race tires on stock wheels and street tires on those spindly
little Enkeis. The stockers are heavy, but they don't bend or break.

Another solution for track wheels is to do what I did: find a set of beat
up stock wheels that need rechroming. I got mine for $100 each. They don't
look very nice close up, but they work.

Rich/94 VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 10:33:03 -0500
From: Gabriel Estrada <typhoonzz@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Leaded race fuel

I have never used leaded racing fuel in the Mitsubishi, but in my Typhoon I
always run a mix of 110 leaded and 92 octane from Amoco.  It's major
advantage for me is allowing me to run higher levels of boost with out
detonation.  On straight 92 I can get away with 15lbs and no detonation.
Running a mix at the drag strip last weekend of 15gal 92, 5 gal 110 I was
running 22lbs and still zero detonation.  Problem is that I was replacing 02
sensors every 2-3 months.  I'm assuming that you will have the same problem
in the 3s cars...It got really expensive after a while : )  But it makes a
difference in my truck.  In the Mitsu I have only run 104 unleaded, and I
can't say that it made that much of a difference, but I am running a stock
car and detonation has never been much of an issue.  But if I were to start
modifying the VR-4 then I would start running a mix in that car just to
ensure that I do keep detonation down....
Just my opinion...
Gabriel Estrada
Internet Sales Director
McCarthy Auto Group
Chevrolet, Oldsmobile, Mitsubishi, Nissan and Hyundai
913-269-7365

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:55:18 -0400
From: "Jeff VanOrsdal" <jeffv@1nce.com>
Subject: Team3S: 10.4 sec 1/4 mile run: Reality or fantasy?

I've heard someone has claimed a 10.4 run in a VR4.  Is this true, do we
have any hard information to back it up?

The technical content comes when/if we find out who did this and HOW they
did it.

Jeff VanOrsdal
1991 Stealth ESX Twin Turbo
jeffv@1nce.com

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:05:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Leaded race fuel

Gabriel,

What are you using to monitor knock on your Typhoon?

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gabriel Estrada" <typhoonzz@earthlink.net>
To: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>; "Sam Shelat"
<sshelat@erols.com>
Cc: "Curtis McConnel" <CMcConnel@Pulte.com>; "'Jannusch, Matt'"
<mjannusch@marketwatch.com>; <Team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Leaded race fuel

I have never used leaded racing fuel in the Mitsubishi, but in my
Typhoon I always run a mix of 110 leaded and 92 octane from Amoco.
It's major advantage for me is allowing me to run higher levels of
boost with out detonation.  On straight 92 I can get away with 15lbs
and no detonation. <snip>

Gabriel Estrada
Internet Sales Director
McCarthy Auto Group
Chevrolet, Oldsmobile, Mitsubishi, Nissan and Hyundai
913-269-7365

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:15:54 -0400
From: MAJA <mxjashogar@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Spark Plugs

 I called both Chrysler dealerships and both the Part guys stressed $ 53.00 ,
Canadian Tire doesn't carry them . I tried some other Auto parts and neither
could get them?? As I live in Ontario I thinking about driving to Michigan
once this border crackdown eases a bit .
anymore info appreciated .  LMK Thanks Garry

Darc wrote:

> Gary;;
> You must have been misquoted. That sounds like the price for the set. And,
> I am in Canada. The NGK platinums are good until  the 100.000km/60,000mile
> service is required. If you want to change more regularly you can go with
> NGK coppers which give every bit as good performance.
>
> Darc
>
> Victoria, BC
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "MAJA" <mxjashogar@home.com>
> To: <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 7:17 AM
> Subject: Team3S: Spark Plugs
>
> > Hello I want to know if the NGK Platinum spark plugs are available for
> > less money than here in Canada . They want $ 53.00 Can plus15% tax on
> > top of that for one . I am thinking about installing the Bosch ones due
> > to the expense . Can I get 100,000 Clicks on those ? Thanks
> > Garry 93ES Stealth

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:17:34 -0400
From: "Andie W. Lin" <andiewlin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Brake Shudder - Addendum

Also, it is important to note that some friction compounds, especially when
switching from one brand to another, are not "compatible" with each other.
That is, if you use Compound ABC, and then switch directly to Compound XYZ,
you may experience a stronger-than-normal shudder as a result of friction
material transfer.  This is why it is very important to turn your rotors
when installing a new set of brake pads.  If you rotors are smooth such that
they do not have any grooving, then it is sometimes sufficient to scuff the
rotors with a heavy grit paper (50 grit, for example) in small circles, to
remove any film transfer; though turning the rotor does a much better job.

Andie

andie w lin
vp marketing and product r&d
carbotech engineering
http://www.carbotecheng.com
tel: 877.899.5024 | fax: 954.493.9669

::-----Original Message-----
::From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
::Of Merritt
::Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 10:59 AM
::To: Andie W. Lin; team3s-digest@mail.speedtoys.com
::Subject: RE: Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1 #619
::When I was runnng at Road America one day and the brakes started
::shuddering
::at the beginning of a session,  my instructor said, "Don't worry, it'll go
::away." Sure enough, after a couple of hot laps, it went away.  Musta been
::what Andie is talking about. They were Pagid Blacks, and they only did it
::once.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:22:11 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Brake Shudder - Addendum

But scoring them with 50-grit paper is less than $15 a rotor to turn for
some people.  :)

And PF from the previous posts was Porterfield rotors.

- --Flash!

- -----Original Message-----
From: Andie W. Lin
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 12:18 PM

Also, it is important to note that some friction compounds, especially when
switching from one brand to another, are not "compatible" with each other.
That is, if you use Compound ABC, and then switch directly to Compound XYZ,
you may experience a stronger-than-normal shudder as a result of friction
material transfer.  This is why it is very important to turn your rotors
when installing a new set of brake pads.  If you rotors are smooth such that
they do not have any grooving, then it is sometimes sufficient to scuff the
rotors with a heavy grit paper (50 grit, for example) in small circles, to
remove any film transfer; though turning the rotor does a much better job.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:26:22 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Track wheels

my track wheels are a dream.  I worry nothing about them breaking.  They do
weigh 50# with the tire mounted (about 26# without I think) but that is
little price to pay for peace of mind.  Plus, at my car weight I don't worry
about reducing anything anymore (although 10# lighter on the corner would be
40# more sprung weight to not sling around and slow down).

They are good and can hold up to a 265-width tire I believe.  I have 255s on
them now but want to go to 265 next season if I ever wear the track tires
out in the middle of the year.

- --Flash!

- -----Original Message-----
From: Merritt
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 11:24 AM

Actually, the strongest track wheel of all is a stocker. I ran 1997 ES
wheels for two seasons (sold 'em to Flash, who still uses them). For
anybody who needs a set of track wheels, maybe the best solution would be
to put the race tires on stock wheels and street tires on those spindly
little Enkeis. The stockers are heavy, but they don't bend or break.

Another solution for track wheels is to do what I did: find a set of beat
up stock wheels that need rechroming. I got mine for $100 each. They don't
look very nice close up, but they work.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:37:19 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Spark Plugs

>  I called both Chrysler dealerships and both the Part guys
> stressed $ 53.00 , Canadian Tire doesn't carry them . I tried
> some other Auto parts and neither could get them?? As I live
> in Ontario I thinking about driving to Michigan once this
> border crackdown eases a bit . anymore info appreciated . 
> LMK Thanks Garry

I got the copper version from a place in Canada...

http://www.clubplug.net/

They have the platinum stock plugs also, but those are $10.95 there.  They
were pretty cheap (and also actually had) the copper versions in colder
ranges.  Took a little while to get them, but they got here just fine.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:48:23 -0400
From: "Jeff VanOrsdal" <jeffv@1nce.com>
Subject: Team3S: 3S Specific Brembo upgrade **NEW INFORMATION**

I received a reply from Rober Ramsey at Brembo.  He was kind enough to send
me the PDF spec sheet for our brake package as well as a PDF detailing what
wheel measurements must be made to ensure a proper fit.  I can forward the
PDFs to someone who has webspace to host them for all to view.  Here's the
highlights:

P/N 1B1.8013A
Two piece aluminium caliper with 40 and 44mm pistons
355mm x 32mm cross drilled motorsport discs
Floating style billet aluminium "bell"
Goodridge SS lines
Cost: $3295.00  *eek!*

For more information, contact Robert Ramsey at 800/325-3994 xt 204

I can't offer any educated opinion of this setup.  I'm just the messenger :)
But this may be a nice upgrade for the serious track nuts among us.  Or,
maybe not.  I'll leave that for you folks to decide.  As I said, if anyone
wants the PDFs email me privately and I'll forward them.  The brake
measurement PDF diagram could have some other uses as well.  Perhaps someone
could compile a list of measurements for the various Porsche retrofit kits
out there?

Jeff VanOrsdal
1991 Stealth ESX Twin Turbo
jeffv@1nce.com

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:10:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 3S Specific Brembo upgrade **NEW INFORMATION**

I can..but why dont have you have a speedtoys.com WWW account already?

*grin*

Just Email a username & password you want..thats it.

That goes for anyone.

On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, Jeff VanOrsdal wrote:

> I received a reply from Rober Ramsey at Brembo.  He was kind enough to send
> me the PDF spec sheet for our brake package as well as a PDF detailing what
> wheel measurements must be made to ensure a proper fit.  I can forward the
> PDFs to someone who has webspace to host them for all to view.  Here's the
> highlights:
>
> P/N 1B1.8013A
> Two piece aluminium caliper with 40 and 44mm pistons
> 355mm x 32mm cross drilled motorsport discs
> Floating style billet aluminium "bell"
> Goodridge SS lines
> Cost: $3295.00  *eek!*
>
> For more information, contact Robert Ramsey at 800/325-3994 xt 204
>
> I can't offer any educated opinion of this setup.  I'm just the messenger :)
> But this may be a nice upgrade for the serious track nuts among us.  Or,
> maybe not.  I'll leave that for you folks to decide.  As I said, if anyone
> wants the PDFs email me privately and I'll forward them.  The brake
> measurement PDF diagram could have some other uses as well.  Perhaps someone
> could compile a list of measurements for the various Porsche retrofit kits
> out there?
>
> Jeff VanOrsdal
> 1991 Stealth ESX Twin Turbo
> jeffv@1nce.com
* Porterfield Brake Wholesaler..just ask! *


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 14:14:42 -0400
From: "Andie W. Lin" <andiewlin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 1991 3000 GT VR-4

Haha!  Which reminds me...full disclosure...I'm 27. :-)

But I have never sold underwear at Sears (or anywhere else), nor have I
flipped burgers at BK, McDonalds, Wendy's, Roy Rogers, Checkers, etc. -
though I do eat at Wendy's at least once a week...triple classic with bacon
is a real gut buster!)...but I research, develop, and market brake pads.

Can you trust me to stop your car going into Turn 1 at Road America at
150mph+ with a puddle of kitty litter and a concrete wall just a few feet
off the edge of the track as you decide to start your braking at the last
marker while having to downshift through three gears? :-)

<grin>

andie w lin
vp marketing and product r&d
carbotech engineering
http://www.carbotecheng.com
tel: 877.899.5024 | fax: 954.493.9669

::-----Original Message-----
::From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
::Of Jim Berry
::Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 11:10 AM
::To: Jeff Lucius; Team3s@stealth-3000gt.st; Merritt
::Subject: Re: Team3S: 1991 3000 GT VR-4
::"sure no problem" --- yeah right, like I'm going to believe a 22 year old
::salesman who was selling underwear at Sears three month ago [ you may
::detect some cynicism here --- old age does that to you ]

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 14:39:32 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 1991 3000 GT VR-4

I will trust the Panther pads only because our very own Dr. Willis has
braved something like this himself and I witnessed that they work well.

Did you get any results from your dyno test on the new pads?  You said you
were going to measure temps or something and I was wondering if that would
help persuade some of us to your products.

- --Flash!
1995 VR-4, Big Reds, Pagid Orange race pads (for now)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Andie W. Lin
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 2:15 PM

Can you trust me to stop your car going into Turn 1 at Road America at
150mph+ with a puddle of kitty litter and a concrete wall just a few feet
off the edge of the track as you decide to start your braking at the last
marker while having to downshift through three gears? :-)

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:46:31 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 1991 3000 GT VR-4

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Andie W. Lin <andiewlin@yahoo.com>

> Haha!  Which reminds me...full disclosure...I'm 27. :-)

Damn ---- my grandkids are half that age, young whippersnapper.
I hold to the --- believe ½ of what you hear and ¾ of what you see ---
school of thought.

I read with some interest your brief report on rotor warp --- a couple of
questions por favore ---

can you undo the 'ghost warping' by a combination of heat cycling and
turning or do you just live with it or toss it out ???

Will rotors develop hard spots --- I've seen it in flywheels when they've
been overstressed.

does cryo hold up even after heating the rotors to 1400º a few dozen
times ???

On this board PF usually refers to Porterfield --- you said Performance
Friction makes the worlds best street rotors [ or words to that effect ] ---
Does that mean that there is a difference for race rotors [ assuming the
use of iron rotors ]. I am aware of the use of two piece rotors but are you
talking different designs or materials or what ??


> Can you trust me to stop your car going into Turn 1 at Road America at
> 150mph+ with a puddle of kitty litter and a concrete wall just a few feet
> off the edge of the track as you decide to start your braking at the last
> marker while having to downshift through three gears? :-)
>
> <grin>

Not just yet --- that why this board and others like it are important, we can
share information on what works and what doesn't. Marketing hype is just
that, hype, until the rubber hits the road so to speak. I am interested in the
improvement in the braking capabilities of our cars and I follow all the posts,
good and bad.

        Jim Berry

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:02:23 -0700
From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Track wheels

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Darren Schilberg <dschilberg@pobox.com>

> my track wheels are a dream.  I worry nothing about them breaking.  They do
> weigh 50# with the tire mounted (about 26# without I think) but that is
> little price to pay for peace of mind.

I just weighed my two setups --- 94 VR4 17" rims with well worn Yoko A032's
came in at 49#   :-Þ , while my RP01's with the Hoosiers are 37#  :-).  That's
a pretty good savings. I don't worry about my RP01's any more I just make
sure to check them over --- that should be done with any wheel subjected to
track use and abuse. If and when I get some extra $$ I'm probably going to
go with the CCW wheels at about $600 each.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:29:06 -0400
From: "Andie W. Lin" <andiewlin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 1991 3000 GT VR-4

See below:

andie w lin
vp marketing and product r&d
carbotech engineering
http://www.carbotecheng.com
tel: 877.899.5024 | fax: 954.493.9669

::-----Original Message-----
::From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
::Of Jim Berry
::Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 2:47 PM
::To: Andie W. Lin; Jeff Lucius; Team3s@stealth-3000gt.st; Merritt
::Subject: Re: Team3S: 1991 3000 GT VR-4

::I read with some interest your brief report on rotor warp --- a couple of
::questions por favore ---

Always willing to answer what I can (and know about), and defer to someone
else when I don't know.

::can you undo the 'ghost warping' by a combination of heat cycling and
::turning or do you just live with it or toss it out ???

You live with it or toss it out, right.  You cannot undo this "hot ghost
warpage" as it is in "memory", if you will.  However, most of this kind of
perceived warpage is actually film transfer, and not warpage at all...in
most cases I have seen, at least.

::Will rotors develop hard spots --- I've seen it in flywheels when they've
::been overstressed.

Yes, you can develop hot/hard spots on your rotors, especially when using
brake friction compounds with a very high carbon content (which is the main
reason we went to ceramics to replace the carbon typically found in a
high-performance compound; carbon is just a filler material, and does not
provide the braking torque/ability of the compound - prior to carbon, the
filler was abestos).  If you get enough film transfer from a high-carbon
content pad onto the rotor, and then stand on the brakes enough times, you
can develop these hot/hard spots on your rotors.  This is typically where
your cracks will typically show up at.

::does cryo hold up even after heating the rotors to 1400º a few dozen
::times ???

Yes.  The cryogenic treatment of metals, if performed properly (e.g.  this
is a 4 day process, from start to finish...if someone tells you they will
cryogenically treat your rotors or engine parts in 2 or even 3 days...they
are NOT doing it right, and you are wasting your money), is a permanent
treatment, and it cannot be "undone".  For more information on this, please
reference our website at www.carbotecheng.com .

::On this board PF usually refers to Porterfield --- you said Performance
::Friction makes the worlds best street rotors [ or words to that
::effect ] ---
::Does that mean that there is a difference for race rotors [ assuming the
::use of iron rotors ]. I am aware of the use of two piece rotors
::but are you
::talking different designs or materials or what ??

Both...in the quality of the metal used, the quality of the manufacturing
process, and the quality control of tolerances.  Performance
Friction/Pinnacle Brake Technology (PFC) makes, hands down, the best rotors
I have seen...at a cost; they are not inexpensive by any stretch of the
imagination.

::Not just yet --- that why this board and others like it are
::important, we can
::share information on what works and what doesn't. Marketing hype is just
::that, hype, until the rubber hits the road so to speak. I am
::interested in the
::improvement in the braking capabilities of our cars and I follow
::all the posts,
::good and bad.

That was intended to put a grin on your face. :-)  We put out the highest
quality products, both in terms of performance and reliability; Carbotech
Engineering achieves this both through extensive scientific testing, and
also by listening to customer input/feedback.  The dyno testing is just part
of the picture...telling us if we are headed in the right direction, and
that we have enough information to sell a product that is safe and reliable;
the customer leads us the rest of the way to the finish line.

Most marketing is hype, no question.  Term like "c****n-k****r" or
"carbon-f***r" brake pads are examples of this.  If you have any questions
about our products, just ask, and I'll answer them for you.  For example,
the Honda S2000 group was concerned about corrosive dust from our Panther
compound (NOT the Panther Plus, which is non-corrosive)...and we had already
sold several rear sets in this compound (which provides the proper braking
bias for this vehicle).  Well, I went and tested an S2000 over three days in
Michigan two weekends ago to determine if the ABS on the S2000 was
adequately programmed to handle the harder-biting Panther Plus in the rear,
so they could have a rear compound that did not produce corrosive dust.
Turns out, we can use Panther Plus in the front and the rear of the S2000,
despite the light weight of the vehicle, without any problems...and I ended
up exchanging several rear axle sets of the Panther for the Panther Plus at
no cost.    You can read the entire discussion here:
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26929 .

The bottom line for me is that you guys get what you want and need.  Our
products are excellent, but they may not be what you need in a particular
situation or application, and in this case, I'll have to send you to another
manufacturer's product line; I send people to Pagid on occasion, for
example.

Regards,

Andie Lin

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1 #620
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