Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth  Tuesday, September 25 2001  Volume 01 : Number 626




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:46:41 -0400
From: Ken Stanton <tt007ken@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

Where?  How?  I'm interested..

Ken

Geoff Mohler wrote:

> $185 shipped for a brand new full set.  $175 was the GP deal about 2
> months ago.
>
> On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Ken Stanton wrote:
>
> > Doh!
> > I'm looking for the whole kit for my car, asap.
> > Any suggestions?
> >
> > Ken Stanton
> > '91 Pearl White R/T TT
> > Organizer - 3SI Rochester (NY)

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:47:41 -0400
From: Ken Stanton <tt007ken@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

Ohhhhhhhhhh!!!!
Duh!

Ok, so what do I need to purchase, and what tools do I need?
Is there a writeup on this somewhere?

THANKS!
Ken

"Willis, Charles E." wrote:

> I mean ... you remove the dust boots and retaining rings from the pistons,
> you use compressed air to pop the pistons out of the caliper with a piece of
> wood between them and a c-clamp to hold each one in place after it pops out
> until all four are loose, and you remove the seal from each piston and you
> clean it out and clean each piston with a scotch brite pad and you but new
> seals on the pistons and attach new dust boots and put the pistons back in
> the caliper body and then attach the new retaining rings.
>
> You know?

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:01:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

Some really good ideas Andie..thanks!

The Portefield lines are about 1/4" longer to help make up for any
suspension travel issues, plus they are all made to also match the new
length of lines in the volountary recall..where the OEM lines are also
longer.

On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Andie W. Lin wrote:

> I'm going to side in part with Geoff here.  I've seen a few failiures (I can
> count them on one hand...so not a TON, by any means.), but all it takes is
> one failure to send you off the road or into a wall at 120mph.
>
> I have personally had two failures...a lot depends on the car.  If the
> suspension travels in such a way that it puts a lot of stress on the hoses,
> then you will be more prone to failure.
>
> I do NOT have personal hands-on experience with the 3000GT when it comes to
> brake lines, so I'll defer to Geoff and other members of the list (who
> actually own the car) on this one, when it comes to specifics.
>
> To protect my SS hoses, I have them shrink wrap some tubing around the SS
> braiding to keep out dust and debris, and then also, I split a thick
> silicone tube and put it over the hoses with zip ties in order to provide a
> buffer against high-speed road debris.  This has worked very well for me,
> and helps to prolong the life of the SS braided hoses.
>
> andie w lin
> vp marketing and product r&d
> carbotech engineering
> http://www.carbotecheng.com
> tel: 877.899.5024 | fax: 954.493.9669
>
> ::-----Original Message-----
> ::From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
> ::Of Geoff Mohler
> ::Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 1:52 PM
> ::To: Ken Stanton
> ::Cc: team3s@team3s.com
> ::Subject: Re: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S
> ::
> ::
> ::$185 shipped for a brand new full set.  $175 was the GP deal about 2
> ::months ago.
* Porterfield Brake Wholesaler..just ask! *


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:49:00 -0400
From: "Andie W. Lin" <andiewlin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

I was asking him for HIS reasons. :-)

Some people want it for aesthetics, which on a show-car...fine...but if he
told me he wanted it just for looks...I'd advise against it, because he
apparently wouldn't be inspecting them for signs of wear.

The reasons YOU listed are the correct reasons to get them, but as with
anything, it is not always ALL positives...there are drawbacks to
everything.  For example, with Motul 600...it is an excellent high-temp
brake fluid...we sell it as well.  However, it is important to point out
that it is also VERY hydroscopic, and that it will absorb moisture much more
readily than other brake fluids.  This means that they need to bleed their
brake fluid often to keep the operating boiling temperature from sagging and
going down to the wet boiling point.

I just like to cover the bases and make people aware of everything...even if
it results in a lost sale.

andie w lin
vp marketing and product r&d
carbotech engineering
http://www.carbotecheng.com
tel: 877.899.5024 | fax: 954.493.9669

::-----Original Message-----
::From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
::Of Geoff Mohler
::Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 1:55 PM
::To: Andie W. Lin
::Cc: Ken Stanton; team3s@team3s.com
::Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S
::
::Reduced sagging of brake pedal, a more positive feeling of braking, more
::braking feedback to name a few.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:47:47 -0600
From: Dave Monarchi <monarchd@refuge.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

ok.  I'll bite. 

Subject: Porsche brakes

why are "Big Reds" uh, well, RED?  Are they _so_ much better they don't
have to be concerned about insulation?

Dave
=======================
= 95 Black 3000GT VR4 =
= 87 Mica Red GTI G60 =    http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~monarchd/cars.html
= There is no spoon.. =
=======================

- --------

+> If you want better braking DONT paint the calipers.
+>
+> Calipers are a soft dull metal so they radiate heat better.  Painting them
+> insulates them a little..which doesnt help your brake fluid any.
+>
+> On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Ken Stanton wrote:
+>
+> > Well,
+> >
+> > I don't want to upgrade to Big Reds (calipers), too much $.
+> > The car is 10 years old, the rubber isn't bad, but aging.
+> > I want to get the maximum brake response, to match the mods that make me g
o
+> > faster.
+> > I'm pulling off the calipers to paint them, and flushing the fluid (10 yea
rs
+> > old) so, can't be a better time!
+> >
+> > That's my reasons =)
+> >
+> > Ken Stanton
+> > '91 Pearl White R/T TT
+> > Organizer - 3SI Rochester (NY)

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:04:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

Just ask...if you want a full set, paypal me at orders@speedtoys.com, and
I'll have em built and sent UPS today.

On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Ken Stanton wrote:

> Where?  How?  I'm interested..
>
> Ken
>
> Geoff Mohler wrote:
>
> > $185 shipped for a brand new full set.  $175 was the GP deal about 2
> > months ago.
> >
> > On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Ken Stanton wrote:
> >
> > > Doh!
> > > I'm looking for the whole kit for my car, asap.
> > > Any suggestions?
> > >
> > > Ken Stanton
> > > '91 Pearl White R/T TT
> > > Organizer - 3SI Rochester (NY)
* Porterfield Brake Wholesaler..just ask! *


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:03:55 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

[Andie, you'll be happy to hear that I spent all last weekend chasing NSX's]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andie W. Lin [SMTP:andiewlin@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 12:40 PM
> To: Willis, Charles E.; 'Ken Stanton'
> Cc: team3s@team3s.com
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S
>
>  but not as common on the street. 
>
> [Andie doesn't have to drive in Houston!]
>
> However, if the hose is
> not covered on the outside by a silicon or rubber sheath, tiny particles
> of
> dust and dirt can worth their way under the SS braiding and become lodged
> between the SS braiding and the teflon core.  Suspension movement will
> eventually cause the dirt and dust particules to "eat away" and abrade the
> very fragile teflon core, potentially leading to a rupture.
>
> [Come on Andie, talking about a rupture sounds pretty disparaging to me!]
>
> Thus, with regards to "disparaging statgement" about SS braided hoses, my
> only statement is this:  If you inspect your hoses regularly, then you can
> use SS braided hoses...if you do not or are not willing to do so, then
> stick
> with OEM rubber hoses.
>
> Now, to replicate the firmer pedal feel that a SS braided hose offers, you
> can simply put zip tires around the OEM rubber hoses every 1" along the
> length of the hose.  This keeps the hose from swelling under hard brake
> pedal application; Cost: $5 for a bag of 100 from Home Depot.
>
> [This is a terrific suggestion, Andie, there is a complete spectrum of us
> doing this stuff, and a $5 improvement is very helpful to those who can't
> afford a $185 solution!  Thanks!]
>

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:54:49 -0400
From: "Andie W. Lin" <andiewlin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

Chuck,

[Andie, you'll be happy to hear that I spent all last weekend chasing NSX's]

Got any names of those drivers?

[Come on Andie, talking about a rupture sounds pretty disparaging to me!]

Had it happen twice on two of my cars...when you're going 70mph down the
highway and the pedal goes to the floor when you expect to slow down to
30mph for an off-ramp...THIS IS NOT ANY FUN AT ALL. :-)

[This is a terrific suggestion, Andie, there is a complete spectrum of us
doing this stuff, and a $5 improvement is very helpful to those who can't
afford a $185 solution!  Thanks!]

This is one case where you can have your cake and eat the ice cream too. :-)

andie w lin
vp marketing and product r&d
carbotech engineering
http://www.carbotecheng.com
tel: 877.899.5024 | fax: 954.493.9669

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:09:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

Yep *grin*

Im not a business *but soon may be one*..so Id prefer not lose friends
here just for a quick buck..which I dont really make anyway.

On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Andie W. Lin wrote:

> I was asking him for HIS reasons. :-)
>
> Some people want it for aesthetics, which on a show-car...fine...but if he
> told me he wanted it just for looks...I'd advise against it, because he
> apparently wouldn't be inspecting them for signs of wear.
>
> The reasons YOU listed are the correct reasons to get them, but as with
> anything, it is not always ALL positives...there are drawbacks to
> everything.  For example, with Motul 600...it is an excellent high-temp
> brake fluid...we sell it as well.  However, it is important to point out
> that it is also VERY hydroscopic, and that it will absorb moisture much more
> readily than other brake fluids.  This means that they need to bleed their
> brake fluid often to keep the operating boiling temperature from sagging and
> going down to the wet boiling point.
>
> I just like to cover the bases and make people aware of everything...even if
> it results in a lost sale.
>
> andie w lin
> vp marketing and product r&d
> carbotech engineering
> http://www.carbotecheng.com
> tel: 877.899.5024 | fax: 954.493.9669
>
> ::-----Original Message-----
> ::From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
> ::Of Geoff Mohler
> ::Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 1:55 PM
> ::To: Andie W. Lin
> ::Cc: Ken Stanton; team3s@team3s.com
> ::Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S
> ::
> ::Reduced sagging of brake pedal, a more positive feeling of braking, more
> ::braking feedback to name a few.
* Porterfield Brake Wholesaler..just ask! *


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:10:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

Theyre a more efficient design, so heat transfer and dissipation isnt so
much an issue.

As far as "paints" go, you can have a caliper sent to be coated to
increase heat dissipation up to 50%.

On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Dave Monarchi wrote:

>
> ok.  I'll bite. 
>
> Subject: Porsche brakes
>
> why are "Big Reds" uh, well, RED?  Are they _so_ much better they don't
> have to be concerned about insulation?
>
> Dave
> =======================
> = 95 Black 3000GT VR4 =
> = 87 Mica Red GTI G60 =    http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~monarchd/cars.html
> = There is no spoon.. =
> =======================
>
> --------
>
> +> If you want better braking DONT paint the calipers.
> +>
> +> Calipers are a soft dull metal so they radiate heat better.  Painting them
> +> insulates them a little..which doesnt help your brake fluid any.
> +>
> +> On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Ken Stanton wrote:
> +>
> +> > Well,
> +> >
> +> > I don't want to upgrade to Big Reds (calipers), too much $.
> +> > The car is 10 years old, the rubber isn't bad, but aging.
> +> > I want to get the maximum brake response, to match the mods that make me g
> o
> +> > faster.
> +> > I'm pulling off the calipers to paint them, and flushing the fluid (10 yea
> rs
> +> > old) so, can't be a better time!
> +> >
> +> > That's my reasons =)
> +> >
> +> > Ken Stanton
> +> > '91 Pearl White R/T TT
> +> > Organizer - 3SI Rochester (NY)
> +> >
> +> > "Andie W. Lin" wrote:
> +> >
> +> > > I would like to ask: what is your reason for installing SS braided brake
> +> > > hoses on your car?
> +> > >
> +> > > Regards,
> +> > >
> +> > > Andie Lin
> +> > >
> +> > > andie w lin
> +> > > vp marketing and product r&d
> +> > > carbotech engineering
> +> > > http://www.carbotecheng.com
> +> > > tel: 877.899.5024 | fax: 954.493.9669

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:10:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

*heh*

Ive got a pair of Tarox 6-pot calipers for the rear of an NSX at home..but
no rotors.

On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Willis, Charles E. wrote:

> [Andie, you'll be happy to hear that I spent all last weekend chasing NSX's]
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Andie W. Lin [SMTP:andiewlin@yahoo.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 12:40 PM
> > To: Willis, Charles E.; 'Ken Stanton'
> > Cc: team3s@team3s.com
> > Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S
> >
> >  but not as common on the street. 
> >
> > [Andie doesn't have to drive in Houston!]
> >
> > However, if the hose is
> > not covered on the outside by a silicon or rubber sheath, tiny particles
> > of
> > dust and dirt can worth their way under the SS braiding and become lodged
> > between the SS braiding and the teflon core.  Suspension movement will
> > eventually cause the dirt and dust particules to "eat away" and abrade the
> > very fragile teflon core, potentially leading to a rupture.
> >
> > [Come on Andie, talking about a rupture sounds pretty disparaging to me!]
> >
> > Thus, with regards to "disparaging statgement" about SS braided hoses, my
> > only statement is this:  If you inspect your hoses regularly, then you can
> > use SS braided hoses...if you do not or are not willing to do so, then
> > stick
> > with OEM rubber hoses.
> >
> > Now, to replicate the firmer pedal feel that a SS braided hose offers, you
> > can simply put zip tires around the OEM rubber hoses every 1" along the
> > length of the hose.  This keeps the hose from swelling under hard brake
> > pedal application; Cost: $5 for a bag of 100 from Home Depot.
> >
> > [This is a terrific suggestion, Andie, there is a complete spectrum of us
> > doing this stuff, and a $5 improvement is very helpful to those who can't
> > afford a $185 solution!  Thanks!]

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:13:50 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

Write up? You just read it!

seriously, this has got to exist somewhere else.  lemme dig in my old
emails.  you need a "front caliper seal kit" from Mitsu or elsewhere, a
little block of wood and a souce of compressed air - I used my portable
electric tire pump last time and borrowed air from the tire shop a couple of
times. It makes a mess when the pistons pop out so cover it with a rag and
set it on plastic or something.

Chuck

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Stanton [SMTP:tt007ken@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 12:48 PM
> To: Willis, Charles E.
> Cc: team3s@team3s.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S
>
> Ohhhhhhhhhh!!!!
> Duh!
>
> Ok, so what do I need to purchase, and what tools do I need?
> Is there a writeup on this somewhere?
>
> THANKS!
> Ken
>

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:16:07 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

I bet the wet boiling point of Motul 600 is still better than the wet
boiling temp of the DOT3 junk that came in the car.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andie W. Lin [SMTP:andiewlin@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 12:49 PM
> To: Geoff Mohler
> Cc: Ken Stanton; team3s@team3s.com
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S
>
>   This means that they need to bleed their
> brake fluid often to keep the operating boiling temperature from sagging
> and
> going down to the wet boiling point.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:05:44 -0400
From: "Andie W. Lin" <andiewlin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

And watch your fingers on the receiving end of the pistons.  When they "pop"
out...do they ever. :-)  <looking at my left index finger with UN-fond
memories> <grin>

andie w lin
vp marketing and product r&d
carbotech engineering
http://www.carbotecheng.com
tel: 877.899.5024 | fax: 954.493.9669

::-----Original Message-----
::From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
::Of Willis, Charles E.
::Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 2:14 PM
::Cc: team3s@team3s.com
::Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S
::
::Write up? You just read it!

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 12:07:20 -0600
From: Dave Monarchi <monarchd@refuge.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Caliper paint (was: Re: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S)

+> Theyre a more efficient design, so heat transfer and dissipation isnt so
+> much an issue.

yeah, I figured that.  I was just being "difficult"..  :)

+> As far as "paints" go, you can have a caliper sent to be coated to
+> increase heat dissipation up to 50%.

I take it we're talking about special "paints" as opposed to a spray can
of Krylon?  :)  What does said coating usually cost?  Is this a high-dollar
race car mod?

also, I was recently told that Folia Tec went out of business.  Is there
a reasonable cost substitute for their products?  I have 2 cars waiting
to have their braking efficiency reduced..  ;)

Dave
=======================
= 95 Black 3000GT VR4 =
= 87 Mica Red GTI G60 =    http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~monarchd/cars.html
= There is no spoon.. =
=======================

+> On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Dave Monarchi wrote:
+>
+> >
+> > ok.  I'll bite. 
+> >
+> > Subject: Porsche brakes
+> >
+> > why are "Big Reds" uh, well, RED?  Are they _so_ much better they don't
+> > have to be concerned about insulation?
+> >
+> > +> If you want better braking DONT paint the calipers.
+> > +>
+> > +> Calipers are a soft dull metal so they radiate heat better.  Painting t
hem
+> > +> insulates them a little..which doesnt help your brake fluid any.

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:21:43 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

I'm not sure that the rough oxidized Gray exterior of my calipers after ten
years isn't a better insulator than the nice smooth high temperature
powder-coated Black paint on one set.  Also I can imaging the rough surface
braeking up the airstream across it causing turbulent flow which is less
efficient for heat transfer.  Also I believe Black is a better radiator of
heat than oxidized gray.

I am not having temperature problems with my painted calipers.

Chuck

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geoff Mohler [SMTP:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 12:56 PM
> To: Ken Stanton
> Cc: team3s@team3s.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S
>
> If you want better braking DONT paint the calipers.
>
> Calipers are a soft dull metal so they radiate heat better.  Painting them
> insulates them a little..which doesnt help your brake fluid any.
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:05:22 -0700
From: Wayne <whietala@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

At 10:47 AM 9/25/01 , Ken Stanton wrote:

>Ok, so what do I need to purchase, and what tools do I need?

Mitsubishi part # MB857261 is for 91-93 models, includes both sides. You
will need all your normal tools, plus some compressed air to shoot into the
brake line port.

>Is there a writeup on this somewhere?

In the service manual

>THANKS!
>Ken
***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:32:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

Place a small block of wood in the caliper before you pop out the pistons
as well.

On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Andie W. Lin wrote:

> And watch your fingers on the receiving end of the pistons.  When they "pop"
> out...do they ever. :-)  <looking at my left index finger with UN-fond
> memories> <grin>
>
> andie w lin
> vp marketing and product r&d
> carbotech engineering
> http://www.carbotecheng.com
> tel: 877.899.5024 | fax: 954.493.9669
>
> ::-----Original Message-----
> ::From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
> ::Of Willis, Charles E.
> ::Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 2:14 PM
> ::Cc: team3s@team3s.com
> ::Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S
> ::
> ::Write up? You just read it!

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:32:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Caliper paint (was: Re: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S)

Yes, about $150 per caliper.  I'll post a link tonight..I did post one
Friday night that I recall tho.

On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Dave Monarchi wrote:

>
> +> Theyre a more efficient design, so heat transfer and dissipation isnt so
> +> much an issue.
>
> yeah, I figured that.  I was just being "difficult"..  :)
>
> +> As far as "paints" go, you can have a caliper sent to be coated to
> +> increase heat dissipation up to 50%.
>
> I take it we're talking about special "paints" as opposed to a spray can
> of Krylon?  :)  What does said coating usually cost?  Is this a high-dollar
> race car mod?
>
> also, I was recently told that Folia Tec went out of business.  Is there
> a reasonable cost substitute for their products?  I have 2 cars waiting
> to have their braking efficiency reduced..  ;)
>
> Dave
> =======================
> = 95 Black 3000GT VR4 =
> = 87 Mica Red GTI G60 =    http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~monarchd/cars.html
> = There is no spoon.. =
> =======================
>
> +> On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Dave Monarchi wrote:
> +>
> +> >
> +> > ok.  I'll bite. 
> +> >
> +> > Subject: Porsche brakes
> +> >
> +> > why are "Big Reds" uh, well, RED?  Are they _so_ much better they don't
> +> > have to be concerned about insulation?
> +> >
> +> > +> If you want better braking DONT paint the calipers.
> +> > +>
> +> > +> Calipers are a soft dull metal so they radiate heat better.  Painting t
> hem
> +> > +> insulates them a little..which doesnt help your brake fluid any.

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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:33:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

You assume too much.

More surface area will radiate more, so its not just airflow, but radiated
dispersion you want.  Paints will not radiate as much, and will add
thermal mass.

I'll post the link to the coatings place tonight again.

On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Willis, Charles E. wrote:

> I'm not sure that the rough oxidized Gray exterior of my calipers after ten
> years isn't a better insulator than the nice smooth high temperature
> powder-coated Black paint on one set.  Also I can imaging the rough surface
> braeking up the airstream across it causing turbulent flow which is less
> efficient for heat transfer.  Also I believe Black is a better radiator of
> heat than oxidized gray.
>
> I am not having temperature problems with my painted calipers.
>
> Chuck
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Geoff Mohler [SMTP:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 12:56 PM
> > To: Ken Stanton
> > Cc: team3s@team3s.com
> > Subject: Re: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S
> >
> > If you want better braking DONT paint the calipers.
> >
> > Calipers are a soft dull metal so they radiate heat better.  Painting them
> > insulates them a little..which doesnt help your brake fluid any.
* Porterfield Brake Wholesaler..just ask! *


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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:33:21 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

I found it easier to cap the brake fluid line, open the bleed screw,
attach a hose to the bleeder and pump air in there. pistons still come out.
Otherwise, I didn't make a good enough seal on the brake line.

> Mitsubishi part # MB857261 is for 91-93 models, includes both sides. You
> will need all your normal tools, plus some compressed air to shoot into
> the
> brake line port.

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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:35:34 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Caliper paint (was: Re: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S)

You can get high temp paints from other sources -

http://www.truechoice.com/menu.asp

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geoff Mohler [SMTP:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 1:33 PM
> To: Dave Monarchi
> Cc: team3s@team3s.com
> Subject: Re: Caliper paint (was: Re: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit
> F/S)
>
> Yes, about $150 per caliper.  I'll post a link tonight..I did post one
> Friday night that I recall tho.
>
> >
> > I take it we're talking about special "paints" as opposed to a spray can
> > of Krylon?  :)  What does said coating usually cost?  Is this a
> high-dollar
> > race car mod?

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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:39:34 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

You are right that a layer of ANY material acts as an insulator so that
there is some delta T for heat transfer across it, but if it is in intimate
contact with the metallic caliper body, like paint, and has excellent
thermal conductivity, and is getting rid of the heat on the other side
because it is a better radiator, then overall you are better off.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Geoff Mohler [SMTP:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 1:34 PM
> To: Willis, Charles E.
> Cc: team3s@team3s.com
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S
>
> You assume too much.
>
> More surface area will radiate more, so its not just airflow, but radiated
> dispersion you want.  Paints will not radiate as much, and will add
> thermal mass.

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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:45:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Caliper paint (was: Re: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S)

Were not talking high temp paints, we are talking head radiating coatings.

On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Willis, Charles E. wrote:

> You can get high temp paints from other sources -
>
> http://www.truechoice.com/menu.asp
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Geoff Mohler [SMTP:gemohler@www.speedtoys.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 1:33 PM
> > To: Dave Monarchi
> > Cc: team3s@team3s.com
> > Subject: Re: Caliper paint (was: Re: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit
> > F/S)
> >
> > Yes, about $150 per caliper.  I'll post a link tonight..I did post one
> > Friday night that I recall tho.
> >
> > >
> > > I take it we're talking about special "paints" as opposed to a spray can
> > > of Krylon?  :)  What does said coating usually cost?  Is this a
> > high-dollar
> > > race car mod?
* Porterfield Brake Wholesaler..just ask! *


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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:38:06 -0400
From: "Andie W. Lin" <andiewlin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

The WBP for Motul 600 is 431F, and the DBP is 585F .  This is really one of
the best brake fluids short of Castrol SRF, which costs MUCH more.  The only
real "down side" is that it is very hydroscopic, but this is easily taken
care of by bleeding the brakes before and after every event.

andie w lin
vp marketing and product r&d
carbotech engineering
http://www.carbotecheng.com
tel: 877.899.5024 | fax: 954.493.9669


::I bet the wet boiling point of Motul 600 is still better than the wet
::boiling temp of the DOT3 junk that came in the car.

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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:57:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

Not true anymore.

Its at least 594 for the mew Motul600.

On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Andie W. Lin wrote:

> The WBP for Motul 600 is 431F, and the DBP is 585F .  This is really one of
> the best brake fluids short of Castrol SRF, which costs MUCH more.  The only
> real "down side" is that it is very hydroscopic, but this is easily taken
> care of by bleeding the brakes before and after every event.
>
> andie w lin
> vp marketing and product r&d
> carbotech engineering
> http://www.carbotecheng.com
> tel: 877.899.5024 | fax: 954.493.9669

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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 11:59:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

My chart again:

                            DOT-3    DOT-4    DOT-5
Dry Boiling Point/deg F     401      446      500
Wet Boiling Point/deg F     284      311      356

Now, for comparison, here are the specifications for some of the most
popular high-performance brake fluids in use.

Boiling Points              Dry      Wet
- ----------------------------------------
AP Racing 550               531      261
AP Racing 600               567      378
Castrol SRF                 590      518
Motul Racing 600            585      421
Ate Super Blue/ 200         536      392
Motul RBF 600               594      421


On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Geoff Mohler wrote:

> Not true anymore.
>
> Its at least 594 for the mew Motul600.
>
> On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Andie W. Lin wrote:
>
> > The WBP for Motul 600 is 431F, and the DBP is 585F .  This is really one of
> > the best brake fluids short of Castrol SRF, which costs MUCH more.  The only
> > real "down side" is that it is very hydroscopic, but this is easily taken
> > care of by bleeding the brakes before and after every event.
> >
> > andie w lin
> > vp marketing and product r&d
> > carbotech engineering
> > http://www.carbotecheng.com
> > tel: 877.899.5024 | fax: 954.493.9669
> >
> >
> > ::I bet the wet boiling point of Motul 600 is still better than the wet
> > ::boiling temp of the DOT3 junk that came in the car.

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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:01:11 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

[Willis, Charles E.]  Okay Mr. Smarties, is it "hydroscopic" or
"hygroscopic"?

"All brake fluid in Houston is wet until proven otherwise."

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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:56:59 -0400
From: "Andie W. Lin" <andiewlin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S

I hope you're talking about the DRY BOILING POINT with that number. :-)

Motul and AP has to reformulate their brake fluids recently because one of
the suppliers for an ingredient in their brake fluids disappeared.

andie w lin
vp marketing and product r&d
carbotech engineering
http://www.carbotecheng.com
tel: 877.899.5024 | fax: 954.493.9669

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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:42:10 -0400
From: Ken Stanton <tt007ken@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S (Summary)

Alright, summary of what to do, so far...

Order the rebuild kit for the calipers (IS THERE / SHOULD I DO REARS?).
Pull off my calipers and brake lines (ALL 4).
Rebuild the calipers.
Paint the calipers (yes, I am going to).
Install the SS Brake Lines, shield them with silicone hosing.
Reinstall the calipers.
Fill with brake fluid (WHAT KIND?  I don't race, and can't afford the
time to redo frequently).
Bleed brakes.
Stop.

Ken

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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:08:22 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S (Summary)

use the Motul - it's wet boiling point is still better than DOT 4 wet
boiling point according to Geoff's chart

The rear calipers on your car are much easier than the front's - single
piston floating caliper - the seal kit is much cheaper.

I blew BOTH rear calipers on my 1st Gen VR4 at the track one very hot Labor
Day weekend.  It was a '93, 2 years younger than yours.  If you're gonna put
the ss lines on, you may as well rebuild the rear calipers too.

Chuck

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Stanton [SMTP:tt007ken@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 3:42 PM
> To: Team3S Stealth
> Subject: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S (Summary)
>
> Alright, summary of what to do, so far...
>
> Order the rebuild kit for the calipers (IS THERE / SHOULD I DO REARS?).
> Pull off my calipers and brake lines (ALL 4).
> Rebuild the calipers.
> Paint the calipers (yes, I am going to).
> Install the SS Brake Lines, shield them with silicone hosing.
> Reinstall the calipers.
> Fill with brake fluid (WHAT KIND?  I don't race, and can't afford the
> time to redo frequently).
> Bleed brakes.
> Stop.
>
> Ken

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Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:06:39 -0400
From: "Andie W. Lin" <andiewlin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear SS brake line kit F/S (Summary)

::Order the rebuild kit for the calipers (IS THERE / SHOULD I DO REARS?).
::Pull off my calipers and brake lines (ALL 4).
::Rebuild the calipers.
::Paint the calipers (yes, I am going to).
::Install the SS Brake Lines, shield them with silicone hosing.

Apply heat shrink tubing around it first...make sure it's tight at the
swaged ends to keep dust and debris out.  THEN put on the silicone hosing
with zip tires.

::Reinstall the calipers.
::Fill with brake fluid (WHAT KIND?  I don't race, and can't afford the
::time to redo frequently).

Motul 5.1 works well - no more hydroscopic than a regular street fluid.

::Bleed brakes.

Get some speedbleeders from www.speedbleeder.com .  We are not dealers for
SB...I just like their product, so you have to call them directly and ask
for Michael (owner).

Andie

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End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1 #626
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