Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth Wednesday, September 19 2001 Volume 01 :
Number
616
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date:
Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:07:23 -0400
From: "Scott Beydler" <
dahogrydr@triad.rr.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Clutch pedal? plain text
Sorry. I forgot to send this
without any format.
I sent this last week but I guess it got mixed up in
the domain shuffle.
I was driving my 1994 Dodge Stealth (base model)
tonight and noticed the
clutch pedal starting to become soft. It
continued to get progressively
worse to the point where it would be almost an
inch or two from the
floorboard before actually engaging the clutch. By
the time I was close to
my house the clutch pedal was completely inoperable
and on the floor. It
went from not engaging the clutch when depressing
the pedal to now where the
pedal is all the way down on the floor and won't
rebound to it's original
position.
I might be stupid and the obvious
problem is that the clutch has gone out.
However, I was hoping that there
might be some adjustment that has gone out
of whack and the clutch isn't the
root problem. Anyone who has had similar
experience with this problem
please let me know what you think and would
suggest.
Thanks
Scott
Beydler
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:08:07
-0400
From: "Kevin Schappell" <
kevin@schappell.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Clutch pedal? plain text
Sounds like a leaking hose of
slave/master cylinder, not the clutch. Check
the level and look for
leaks. The slave is on top of the transmission and
the master is below
the brake booster.
Good Luck,
Kevin Schappell
http://kevin.schappell.comSave money
on all of your speed parts.
http://www.SpeedShoppers.com>
I was driving my 1994 Dodge Stealth (base model) tonight and noticed the
>
clutch pedal starting to become soft. It continued to get
progressively
> worse to the point where it would be almost an inch or two
from the
> floorboard before actually engaging the clutch. By the
time I
> was close to
> my house the clutch pedal was completely
inoperable and on the floor. It
> went from not engaging the clutch
when depressing the pedal to
> now where the
> pedal is all the way
down on the floor and won't rebound to it's original
> position.
> I
might be stupid and the obvious problem is that the clutch has gone out.
>
However, I was hoping that there might be some adjustment that
> has gone
out
> of whack and the clutch isn't the root problem. Anyone who
has
> had similar
> experience with this problem please let me know
what you think and would
> suggest.
> Thanks
> Scott
Beydler
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:14:21
-0700
From: "Watkins, Jim" <
jim.watkins@terayon.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Clutch pedal? plain text
Most likely, you have a leak
in the hydraulics for the clutch. Check the
Clutch master cylinder for
fluid. Check around the master cyl for fluid
leak. You could try
to refill, but if there is a leak, it will just end up
on the garage
floor. Use a flashlight to see under the battery area for the
slave
cylinder mounted on the trans. Probably lots of hydraulic
fluid
there. If so, you need to rebuild or replace the slave
cylinder.
Jim
95 3000GT VR4 Spyder
91 3000GT VR4 (Just
sold)
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:21:06
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Clutch pedal? plain text
Hey Scott. I think a soft
pedal is a lot cheaper than a worn clutch. Try
checking the clutch
fluid reservoir (the little white cap in the very back
Driver's side corner
of the engine bay near the brake fluid reservoir). If
there is no fluid
then you will have no pedal pressure.
Perhaps it is a leaking master
slave cylinder. I had this problem. The
clutch pedal would be
tight when I get it from the dealer but two days later
it is real soft.
I had a leaking master (or slave cylinder) but that solved
it for
me.
Finally, if it is a clutch then you can be in 3rd gear going up an
incline
and go to WOT and you will maintain the same speed but the RPMs will
rise.
I could do this in every single gear when my clutch was really
wearing.
Early on it happened only in 6th, then 5th gear and then crept
slowly down
through the gears.
Step 1 above is cheap (it might need
flushed or bled). Step 2 is a bit
pricey but gives you a good clutch
cylinder for 100,000+ miles. Step 3 is a
bit more pricey since the
clutch and most likely the cylinder would get
changed.
-
--Flash!
1005 VR-4
- -----Original Message-----
From: Scott
Beydler
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 5:07 PM
Sorry. I
forgot to send this without any format.
I sent this last week but I guess
it got mixed up in the domain shuffle.
I was driving my 1994 Dodge
Stealth (base model) tonight and noticed the
clutch pedal starting to become
soft. It continued to get progressively
worse to the point where it
would be almost an inch or two from the
floorboard before actually engaging
the clutch. By the time I was close to
my house the clutch pedal was
completely inoperable and on the floor. It
went from not engaging the
clutch when depressing the pedal to now where the
pedal is all the way down
on the floor and won't rebound to it's original
position.
I might be
stupid and the obvious problem is that the clutch has gone out.
However, I
was hoping that there might be some adjustment that has gone out
of whack and
the clutch isn't the root problem. Anyone who has had
similar
experience with this problem please let me know what you think and
would
suggest.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:50:48
-0400
From: "Scott Beydler" <
dahogrydr@triad.rr.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Clutch pedal
I found the master cylinder next to the brake
booster and it is definitely
empty. I couldn't find the slave cylinder
on the tranny. Looked all over
but didn't see anything I thought could
be it. The inside of the master
cylinder has a lot of gunk
buildup. I looked under the battery mount and
under the car.
There was no fluid residue anywhere. The whole
undercarriage is clean
as a whistle as is everything under the hood. Is
there a special kind
of fluid to fill the master cylinder with? Thanks
Scott
Beydler
1994 Dodge Stealth
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: 18 Sep 2001 17:12:21
-0700
From: John Monnin <
jkmonnin@altavista.com>
Subject:
Team3S: FIPK Clone and Precat sound.
I bought a FIPK clone From Turbo
Mufflers several months ago and I just got around to installing it. At the
time it was only $58 plus shipping His new kit is slightly different in
that it is supposed to use a real K&N filter.
I can't notice any
performance gains but, no Honking goose noise yet. I am assuming that is
because it is not as free flowing as a FIPK. I am not upset because the
price was so low, but If I did it again I would get a Real FIPK.
For
Pictures and more details see my post on 3si.
http://www.3si.org/vbb/showthread.php?s=158d797f0f1b2fc90c6ea2075a4d64af&postid=338209&t=2708#post338209P.S.
I am still looking for feedback from people who have gutted pre-cats. Does
you exhaust crackle when you let off the gas? Mine does and I want
to make sure that this is normal.
John Monnin
jkmonnin@altavista.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:15:55
-0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Clutch pedal
If the master cylinder is dry, then there IS a
leak. The fluid does
not evaporate or get used up. Fill the MC with cheap DOT
3 brake
fluid. Remove the battery and have a friend press on the
clutch
pedal. With a flashlight look in the engine bay at the clutch
hose
and slave cylinder. My web pages below identify these for you
(at
least for a '92 TT). There IS a leak somewhere, you have to find it.
I
said use cheap DOT 3 above because you will have to drain the
system to
repair it. Use a good DOT 4 brake fluid when the leak is
fixed. Ate Typ-200
is a superb DOT 4 brake fluid for the clutch at
~$8.50 per liter. You need
like 4 oz for the whole clutch system.
Clutch bleeding:
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/blucius/b-2-clutchbleeding.htmClutch
hose repair:
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/blucius/b-2-clutchhose.htmBattery
and washer tank removal:
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/blucius/b-2-batteryout.htmBrake
fluid info:
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius2/j2-2-brakeupgrade.htmJeff
Lucius,
www.stealth316.com- ---
Scott Beydler <
dahogrydr@triad.rr.com>
wrote:
> I found the master cylinder next to the brake booster and it
is
> definitely
> empty. I couldn't find the slave cylinder on
the tranny. Looked
> all over
> but didn't see anything I
thought could be it. The inside of the
> master
> cylinder has
a lot of gunk buildup. I looked under the battery
> mount
and
> under the car. There was no fluid residue anywhere. The
whole
> undercarriage is clean as a whistle as is everything under
the
> hood. Is
> there a special kind of fluid to fill the
master cylinder with?
> Thanks
> Scott Beydler
>
>
1994 Dodge Stealth
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:23:47
EDT
From:
DiABLoCarAudio@aol.comSubject:
Team3S: Clutch Fuild? Any recommended brand?
Speaking of
clutches.... Is there a recommended clutch fluid we should use?
From my knowledge, it doesn't undergo such extreme conditions that brake
fluid does. Would it be safe to just use regular DOT3 brake/clutch
fluid?
Thanks,
- -Paul - 3Si1127
1992 Green
RT/TT
K&N FIPK & Re-gapped
plugs(0.034")
Porterfield Cryo-Treated Rotors, R-4S Pads,
& SS lines
Greddy Profec Boost Controller @ .9
Bar
Custom 3" Exhaust
www.DiabloCarAudio.com,
www.DiabloEnterprises.com***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:25:57
EDT
From:
DiABLoCarAudio@aol.comSubject: Re:
Team3S: FIPK Clone and Precat sound.
> I am still looking for
feedback from people who have gutted pre-cats.
Does
> you
exhaust crackle when you let off the gas? Mine does and I want to
make
> sure that this is normal.
This may be a sign of a leak
in the exhaust somewhere. Did you replace all
the gaskets when you put
the exhaust back on? Anyone have any comments on
this idea?
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:41:21
-0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: FIPK Clone and Precat sound.
> I am still looking for
feedback from people who have
> gutted pre-cats. Does you exhaust
crackle when you
> let off the gas? Mine does and I want to
make
> sure that this is normal.
Mine did when I had a vented
blowoff valve on the car. I assume it is
because the car was injecting
extra fuel for the lost air and that extra was
igniting in the exhaust
manifold/turbo. Stopped when I put the stock valve
back on and didn't
return when I installed a DSM blowoff valve.
Every once in a while if I'm
at really high RPM and boosting hard it'll
backfire just a wee little bit
when slowing down, but not very often at all.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT
Spyder VR4
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:51:06
-0700
From: "Watkins, Jim" <
jim.watkins@terayon.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Clutch pedal
"I found the master cylinder next to the brake
booster and it is definitely
empty. I couldn't find the slave cylinder
on the tranny. Looked all over
but didn't see anything I thought could
be it."
The slave is located on top of the tranny. Get a shop
manual if necessary.
You can trace the shift linkage from the intake area
back toward the slave
cylinder. If you can't find the shift linkage,
get a partner to move the
stick while you are looking near the
intake.
"The inside of the master cylinder has a lot of gunk
buildup. I looked
under the battery mount and under the car.
There was no fluid residue
anywhere."
The top of my 5 speed tranny has
a spot where fluid could collect, but the
whole system should hold enough
fluid to overflow that area.
"Is there a special kind of fluid to fill
the master cylinder with?"
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I
believe you can use regular brake
fluid in here. You will need to add
the fluid and confirm where the leak is
happening. I believe it is
possible to rebuild either master or slave
cylinders by purchasing the seal
kits, but if the pistons are pitted you
should replace the
units.
Jim
95 3000GT VR4 Spyder
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:32:39
-0700
From: "Jim Berry" <
fastmax@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
FIPK Clone and Precat sound.
There was no change in exhaust noise when I
gutted the precats --- I did
however get a lot of crackle and popping when I
put in the test pipe I use
for
racing.
Jim
Berry
==============================================
> > I am
still looking for feedback from people who have
> > gutted
pre-cats. Does you exhaust crackle when you
> > let off the
gas? Mine does and I want to make
> > sure that this is
normal.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:54:41
-0600
From: "Greg Gonzales" <
greggonzo1@hotmail.com>
Subject:
Team3S: Poor Gas mileage and getting worse
Over the past 8 months my gas
mileage has gone done from about 18 mpg to
just under 16. I am not driving
the car any harder than usual or taking a
different route. My highway mileage
has gone way down too from about 29-32
to about 25mpg.
my car is a 92 RT
TT with 47k on it now. My only mods are K&N FIPK, Borla
Catback, and ATR
downpipe with test pipe so I dont have a main cat
Here is what I can
think of:
Air filter: just recently cleaned it
Tire pressure:
checked it ok
PCV valve: replaced it 2000 miles ago (gas mileage went up
for a little bit
then back down)
Spark plugs: checked them appeared ok
but from 1992
Wires: replaced front 3 (rest are from 92 as
well)
O2 sensor(s): How many are there and could this be the
cause?
Fuel filter: how many are there?
Ever since I purchased to
car I noticed black soot at the tail pipes. Am I
burning rich? how do I fix
this?
Any ideas or suggestions are appreciated
Thanks!
Greg
Gonzales
92 RT TT
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 19:11:08
-0700
From: "Darc" <
wce@telus.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Poor
Gas mileage and getting worse
Black soot is normal. Mine has been that
way from day 1. They burn rich and
even moreso with a test pipe. 1 O2 sensor
is all you have. Try another PCV,
and insure your air cleaner doesn't
have too much oil spray limiting intake.
The only other thing I can
think of is switching to another fuel. Try
Chevron, or if using that, try
another.
Best
Darc
- ----- Original Message -----
From:
"Greg Gonzales" <
greggonzo1@hotmail.com>
To:
"Stealth Net" <
stealth@stls.verio.net>; <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Tuesday, September 18, 2001 5:54 PM
Subject: Team3S: Poor Gas mileage and
getting worse
> Over the past 8 months my gas mileage has gone done
from about 18 mpg to
> just under 16. I am not driving the car any harder
than usual or taking a
> different route. My highway mileage has gone way
down too from about 29-32
> to about 25mpg.
> my car is a 92 RT TT
with 47k on it now. My only mods are K&N FIPK, Borla
> Catback, and
ATR downpipe with test pipe so I dont have a main cat
>
> Here is
what I can think of:
>
> Air filter: just recently cleaned
it
>
> Tire pressure: checked it ok
>
> PCV valve:
replaced it 2000 miles ago (gas mileage went up for a little
bit
> then
back down)
>
> Spark plugs: checked them appeared ok but from
1992
>
> Wires: replaced front 3 (rest are from 92 as
well)
>
> O2 sensor(s): How many are there and could this be the
cause?
>
> Fuel filter: how many are there?
>
> Ever
since I purchased to car I noticed black soot at the tail pipes. Am I
>
burning rich? how do I fix this?
>
> Any ideas or suggestions are
appreciated
> Thanks!
> Greg Gonzales
> 92 RT
TT
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:56:18
-0400
From: "Jeff VanOrsdal" <
jeffv@1nce.com>
Subject: Team3S: Turbo
magazine back issue request (RWD VR4 info)
This isn't strictly technical,
but hopefully it could be. I'm looking to
find the issue of Turbo
Magazine that featured a green 1G VR4 that had been
converted to true
RWD. The car had a weird 1G/2G hybrid front end, and
flared rear
fenders. The engine had been rotated 90 degrees and was mated
to a
Porsche 928 transaxle (I think) I believe the car was somewhere
in
South America last time anyone heard of it.
If anyone has a copy of
this article, I am willing to pay for it. I'll even
pay for photocopies
of it so long as the text is legible. At the very
least, I want to know
how the conversion was done. If it's even remotely
feasible, I'm going
to attempt it myself. If anyone has solid information
on and other RWD
3S cars, let me know. I know Bee*R supposedly did one, but
I don't have
anything more than rumors on it.
Jeff V.
1991 Stealth ESX Twin
Turbo
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:06:28
-0500
From: "cody" <
overclck@starband.net>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Turbo magazine back issue request (RWD VR4 info)
You might
contact Buschur Racing
www.buschurracing.com They have
the
RWD Talon (originally AWD). With the 3/S and DSM being at least
similar
in construction, Dave probably has a lot of tips for you. I
honestly
wouldn't think it's be that bad... I mean - use a different
transaxle,
or a modified 3/S transaxle, and some sort of Porsche or Ford
(9-bolt)
rear end (I'm sure there are more available, but those I've heard
about
more than others). You would need a custom drive shaft, custom
exhaust
and intake, and relocation of some components under the hood
to
different locations...
- -Cody
- -----Original
Message-----
From:
owner-team3s@team3s.com
[mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com] On Behalf
Of Jeff VanOrsdal
Sent:
Tuesday, September 18, 2001 9:56 PM
To: Team3s Tech List
Subject: Team3S:
Turbo magazine back issue request (RWD VR4 info)
This isn't strictly
technical, but hopefully it could be. I'm looking
to
find the issue
of Turbo Magazine that featured a green 1G VR4 that had
been
converted to
true RWD. The car had a weird 1G/2G hybrid front end, and
flared rear
fenders. The engine had been rotated 90 degrees and was
mated
to a
Porsche 928 transaxle (I think) I believe the car was somewhere
in
South America last time anyone heard of it.
If anyone has a copy of
this article, I am willing to pay for it. I'll
even
pay for
photocopies of it so long as the text is legible. At the very
least, I
want to know how the conversion was done. If it's
even
remotely
feasible, I'm going to attempt it myself. If anyone
has solid
information
on and other RWD 3S cars, let me know. I know
Bee*R supposedly did one,
but
I don't have anything more than rumors on
it.
Jeff V.
1991 Stealth ESX Twin Turbo
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:29:45
-0700
From: "Darc" <
wce@telus.net>
Subject: Team3S:
rotors
Here's a question Team
Will a second gen rotor bolt
onto a first gen without replacing the first
gen calipers? I assume the
second gen rotor is superior to the first gen,
so why not replace if it's
time if one can. Thoughts solicited.
Best
Darc
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:51:35
-0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: rotors
I feel it is superior..much better cooling at the
hub.
On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Darc wrote:
> Here's a question
Team
>
> Will a second gen rotor bolt onto a first gen
without replacing the first
> gen calipers? I assume the second gen
rotor is superior to the first gen,
> so why not replace if it's time if
one can. Thoughts solicited.
>
> Best
>
>
Darc
* Porterfield Brake Wholesaler..just ask! *
***
Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:57:17
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Odd brake caliper noises
Sending this to the list so it can be
captured in the archives for people to
search for the correct
answer.
Does anyone know how close this interference is? I did
install the AP
6-piston brake calipers, AP rotors under his VR-4 Spyder
wheels and there
was an interference of a few thickness of chrome
plating. Once or twice
around with the wheel and it was a custom
fit.
If it is any more interference than this then it definitely will not
work.
- --Flash!
- -----Original Message-----
From: Gross, Erik
[mailto:erik.gross@intel.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 6:29
PM
The problem with 17" '91-'93 Stealth (and I assume VR-4) wheels and
the '94+
stock brakes (and Big Reds) is not an offset issue - the spokes
clear just
fine. The problem is that the internal diameter of the wheel
is
ever-so-slightly too small to clear the caliper (the surface
perpendicular
to the rotor surface). You can put the wheels on and line
them up on the
lugs, but when you tighten the lugs, the caliper binds against
the inner
surface of the wheel (not the spokes).
- --Erik
'95 VR-4
with way too many wheels -
18" '95 stock
wheels
17" '91 TT wheels that don't fit and are to
be
installed on a friend's 3G
Eclipse soon
17" '96 VR-4 Spyder Wheels on a FedEx
truck
somewhere between Houston
and Seattle
*** Info:
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***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:17:47
-0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Odd brake caliper noises
Wow..thats too close.
Doesnt
seem to allow much for wheel bending (all wheels bend when racing)
and
bearing play over time.
On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Darren Schilberg
wrote:
> Sending this to the list so it can be captured in the
archives for people to
> search for the correct answer.
>
>
Does anyone know how close this interference is? I did install the
AP
> 6-piston brake calipers, AP rotors under his VR-4 Spyder wheels and
there
> was an interference of a few thickness of chrome plating.
Once or twice
> around with the wheel and it was a custom fit.
>
> If it is any more interference than this then it definitely will not
work.
>
> --Flash!
>
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: Gross, Erik [mailto:erik.gross@intel.com]
>
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 6:29 PM
>
> The problem with 17"
'91-'93 Stealth (and I assume VR-4) wheels and the '94+
> stock brakes
(and Big Reds) is not an offset issue - the spokes clear just
>
fine. The problem is that the internal diameter of the wheel is
>
ever-so-slightly too small to clear the caliper (the surface
perpendicular
> to the rotor surface). You can put the wheels on and
line them up on the
> lugs, but when you tighten the lugs, the caliper
binds against the inner
> surface of the wheel (not the spokes).
>
> --Erik
> '95 VR-4 with way too many wheels
-
> 18" '95 stock
wheels
> 17" '91 TT wheels that don't fit and are
to be
> installed on a
friend's 3G Eclipse soon
> 17" '96 VR-4 Spyder
Wheels on a FedEx truck
>
somewhere between Houston and Seattle
* Porterfield Brake Wholesaler..just ask! *
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 00:02:50
-0500
From: "Philip V. Glazatov" <
gphilip@umich.edu>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: clutch adjustible?
No, it is not the biggest lie. The clutch is
adjustable but only within a
small range and, if properly adjusted, cannot
really be changed much. If
you try to turn this shaft out too much there
will be no free play. This
may mean that there will be pressure accumulating
in the clutch hydraulic
circuit and clutch will not be fully
disengaging.
My advice is to turn this shaft out as much as possible but
not reduce the
minimum free play below recommended in the manual. The second
thing is to
bleed the clutch. I think there is a way to do this with only
removing the
battery and not the intake manifold, although I have not tried
it myself yet.
Philip
At 02:39 PM 09/18/01, Willis, Charles E.
wrote:
>That is the biggest lie in the automotive industry - spread by
Mitsu factory
>trained service personnel!
>
>Look in the
Service manual - you CAN adjust where the clutch engages - it is
>just a
royal pain in the rump. You have to get under the dashboard
under
>the pedals and turn a shaft that actuates the clutch
booster.
>
>You need a good clutch shop who will check your slave
cylinder and master
>cylinder and properly adjust your
clutch.
>
>Chuck Willis
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:05:05
-0700
From: Wayne <
whietala@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: rotors
The 2nd gens are larger diameter. I'm not sure if they are
so large they
will interfere with the body of the 1st gen caliper though. I
assume they
will, because the clearance is pretty tight even with the 1st
gen
rotor/caliper setup.
W
At 08:29 PM 9/18/01 , Darc
wrote:
>Will a second gen rotor bolt onto a first gen without
replacing the first
>gen calipers?
.
>
>Darc
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:15:38
-0700
From: Wayne <
whietala@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Turbo magazine back issue request (RWD VR4 info)
I have what i
believe is a condensed version of the article. It's in a
special edition
"The best of Turbo". The article is 1 1/2 pages, minus a
few photos. Oddly
enough, i also have an in car video showing why the guy
ended up doing this
conversion (100+mph rollover in his first VR-4) My car
has all the
suspension off the one he totaled in the video.
W
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:18:54
-0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Odd brake caliper noises
> Does anyone know how close this
interference is? I did
> install the AP 6-piston brake calipers, AP
rotors under his
> VR-4 Spyder wheels and there was an interference of a
few
> thickness of chrome plating. Once or twice around with the
> wheel and it was a custom fit.
You are kidding, right?
It
really does amaze me what seems to pass for acceptable engineering on
this
list these days.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 00:31:45
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Turbo magazine back issue request (RWD VR4 info)
But we all know
that AWD is (usually) superior to RWD especially in a road
course
situation. He probably did the conversion because he was from the
RWD
days or learned that way and can oversteer like a madman through a turn
to
save his life.
But like some road course drivers will enforce, the AWD
makes us a better
driver than we really are and it has saved our metal more
than once. I
don't think too many people will dispute that technically,
the AWD/AWS
system on the VR-4 will best any RWD car in traction and
control. Most
likely it is the driver's fault in not learning the AWD
that makes them
dangerous. This, however, is not a race driving list
but technically I
don't think there is much of a dispute.
-
--Flash!
1995 VR-4 with rollbar
- -----Original Message-----
From:
Wayne
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 12:16 AM
I have what i
believe is a condensed version of the article. It's in a
special edition "The
best of Turbo". The article is 1 1/2 pages, minus a
few photos. Oddly enough,
i also have an in car video showing why the guy
ended up doing this
conversion (100+mph rollover in his first VR-4) My car
has all the suspension
off the one he totaled in the video.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:31:17
-0500
From: "Oskar" <
osk@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S:
Poor Gas mileage and getting worse
Correction - on a '92 TT there are two
O2 sensors. One for each cylinder
bank.
Oskar
- -----
Original Message -----
From: "Darc" <
wce@telus.net>
To: "Greg Gonzales" <
greggonzo1@hotmail.com>; "Stealth
Net"
<
stealth@stls.verio.net>; <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent:
Tuesday, September 18, 2001 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Poor Gas mileage and
getting worse
> Black soot is normal. Mine has been that way from day
1. They burn rich
and
> even moreso with a test pipe. 1 O2 sensor is
all you have. Try another
PCV,
> and insure your air cleaner
doesn't have too much oil spray limiting
intake.
> The only other
thing I can think of is switching to another fuel. Try
> Chevron, or
if using that, try another.
>
> Best
>
>
Darc
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Greg Gonzales"
<
greggonzo1@hotmail.com>
> To:
"Stealth Net" <
stealth@stls.verio.net>; <
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
>
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 5:54 PM
> Subject: Team3S: Poor Gas
mileage and getting worse
>
> > Over the past 8 months my gas
mileage has gone done from about 18 mpg to
> > just under 16. I am not
driving the car any harder than usual or taking
a
> > different
route. My highway mileage has gone way down too from about
29-32
> >
to about 25mpg.
> > my car is a 92 RT TT with 47k on it now. My only
mods are K&N FIPK,
Borla
> > Catback, and ATR downpipe with test
pipe so I dont have a main cat
> >
> > Here is what I can
think of:
> >
> > Air filter: just recently cleaned it
>
>
> > Tire pressure: checked it ok
> >
> > PCV
valve: replaced it 2000 miles ago (gas mileage went up for a little
>
bit
> > then back down)
> >
> > Spark plugs: checked
them appeared ok but from 1992
> >
> > Wires: replaced front 3
(rest are from 92 as well)
> >
> > O2 sensor(s): How many are
there and could this be the cause?
> >
> > Fuel filter: how
many are there?
> >
> > Ever since I purchased to car I
noticed black soot at the tail pipes. Am
I
> > burning rich? how do
I fix this?
> >
> > Any ideas or suggestions are
appreciated
> > Thanks!
> > Greg Gonzales
> > 92 RT
TT
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 00:34:37
-0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <
dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Odd brake caliper noises
Who said it was acceptable
Engineering. This is what AP Racing sent as far
as rotors, calipers,
offset, etc. The Spyder VR-4 wheels were the only
thing not
changed. For $4k you would think they would get the
distance
correct.
It is not my car. I merely did the mod.
If it breaks then I do not pay for
it. I hope the person well who races
this setup. It did work tremendously
for most of a day and some at
Poconos on the full course.
Just like Stillen DPs that don't fit the
second gen cars I guess. Some
things have not been made to fit
correctly on our cars still.
- --Flash!
- -----Original
Message-----
From: Jannusch, Matt
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001
12:19 AM
> Does anyone know how close this interference is? I
did
> install the AP 6-piston brake calipers, AP rotors under his
>
VR-4 Spyder wheels and there was an interference of a few
> thickness of
chrome plating. Once or twice around with the
> wheel and it was a
custom fit.
You are kidding, right?
It really does amaze me what
seems to pass for acceptable engineering on
this list these
days.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:56:29
-0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <
mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Turbo magazine back issue request (RWD VR4 info)
> But
like some road course drivers will enforce, the AWD makes
> us a better
driver than we really are and it has saved our
> metal more than
once. I don't think too many people will
> dispute that
technically, the AWD/AWS system on the VR-4 will
> best any RWD car in
traction and control. Most likely it is
> the driver's fault in not
learning the AWD that makes them
> dangerous. This, however, is not
a race driving list but
> technically I don't think there is much of a
dispute.
I agree that the AWD/AWS can make up to some extent for poor
driving and
allow average drivers to go faster with more control. Once
you pass the
limits (which are* rather high) these cars can be real quick to
fly straight
off the road. Don't make the mistake of relying on the
AWD/AWS to save you
from yourself - at some point it just won't be
enough.
It isn't necessarily not knowing how the AWD/AWS reacts.
Once you cross
past the cornering limits there isn't much left to grab
control back with.
The limits are probably higher than most people think, but
they are still
there.
- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:31:01
-0600
From: "Thomas Jeys" <
tj@jeys.net>
Subject: Team3S: Front Cat
sucsessfully Gutted!!
Well that went well! The front cat is now
Gutted and I did notice a
sizable increase in power. My spool up time
decreased significantly and my
turbos are a lot louder. I didn't notice
much of a difference in sound
other that the turbo spool.
Does it seem odd
to anyone else that mitsubishi would put a second cat on
only the front
turbo? Doesn't that misbalance the back pressure on the
engine?
Or is there another cat inside the T junction by the back turbo
that I don't
know about?
Ken, thanks for the advice about the routing bits, they worked
wonders.
Marc, you said the rear one is not worth it, do you mean the work is
not
worth is or that I won't see that same kind oh HP gain? I'm trying
to
decide whether to do the rear one or not...
Something I didn't know
about is those stupid studs they put on the cat
instead of bolts. This
makes the cat impossible to remove without taking
the nuts off the bottom of
the rear turbo and dropping down the T junction.
Everyone, thanks for all the
great advice!!
T.J.
92' 3000GT VR-4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:51:31
-0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <
gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Front Cat sucsessfully Gutted!!
Huh?
Both turbos have
two cats to go thru..why would you think different?
On Tue, 18 Sep 2001,
Thomas Jeys wrote:
> Well that went well! The front cat is now
Gutted and I did notice a
> sizable increase in power. My spool up
time decreased significantly and my
> turbos are a lot louder. I
didn't notice much of a difference in sound
> other that the turbo
spool.
> Does it seem odd to anyone else that mitsubishi would put a
second cat on
> only the front turbo? Doesn't that misbalance the
back pressure on the
> engine? Or is there another cat inside the T
junction by the back turbo
> that I don't know about?
> Ken, thanks
for the advice about the routing bits, they worked wonders.
> Marc, you
said the rear one is not worth it, do you mean the work is not
> worth is
or that I won't see that same kind oh HP gain? I'm trying to
>
decide whether to do the rear one or not...
> Something I didn't know
about is those stupid studs they put on the cat
> instead of bolts.
This makes the cat impossible to remove without taking
> the nuts off the
bottom of the rear turbo and dropping down the T junction.
> Everyone,
thanks for all the great advice!!
>
>
> T.J.
> 92'
3000GT VR-4
* Porterfield Brake Wholesaler..just ask! *
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:50:28
+1200
From: "Steve Cooper" <
scooper@paradise.net.nz>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Clutch pedal
There is a flexible hose that leads to the slave
cylinder, this has a
tendancy to develop pinhole leaks, it would pay to check
it.
Steve
> If the master cylinder is dry, then there IS a
leak. The fluid does
> not evaporate or get used up. Fill the MC with
cheap DOT 3 brake
> fluid. Remove the battery and have a friend press on
the clutch
> pedal. With a flashlight look in the engine bay at the clutch
hose
> and slave cylinder. My web pages below identify these for you
(at
> least for a '92 TT). There IS a leak somewhere, you have to find
it.
> I said use cheap DOT 3 above because you will have to drain
the
> system to repair it. Use a good DOT 4 brake fluid when the leak
is
> fixed. Ate Typ-200 is a superb DOT 4 brake fluid for the clutch
at
> ~$8.50 per liter. You need like 4 oz for the whole clutch
system.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:57:36
+1200
From: "Steve Cooper" <
scooper@paradise.net.nz>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Poor Gas mileage and getting worse
Oxygen sensors fail
regularly and make it run rich, mine did.
Steve
PS not all members
of this list have USA spec cars, our Jap spec cars have
only one oxygen
sensor.
> Correction - on a '92 TT there are two O2 sensors. One
for each cylinder
> bank.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 00:11:41
-0600
From: "Thomas Jeys" <
tj@jeys.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Front Cat
sucsessfully Gutted!!
When I was under the car, I pulled out the cat that
comes directly off the
front turbo and gutted it. I saw the rear cat
(the one that is about a foot
and a half long) right after the flexible pipe
but didn't touch it. Is
there a cat that comes right off the rear turbo
as well that I missed? Is it
in the T junction?
http://www.3si.org/member-home/stim3/tim_11-04.gif
On the turbo model it
only shows 2 cats, is what it calls the "Front Pipe"
another one?
T.J.
92' 3000GT VR-4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:23:22
-0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Clutch pedal
Just use good brake fluid, I use DOT
4.
Again, find the leak or the fluid will wind up on the floor.
Check the
slave cylinder. It's the most common location of leaks in the
clutch
hydralic system.
Chuck Willis
> -----Original
Message-----
> From: Scott Beydler [SMTP:dahogrydr@triad.rr.com]
>
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 5:51 PM
> To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: Team3S: Clutch pedal
>
> I found the master cylinder next
to the brake booster and it is definitely
> empty. I couldn't find
the slave cylinder on the tranny. Looked all over
> but didn't see
anything I thought could be it. The inside of the master
> cylinder
has a lot of gunk buildup. I looked under the battery mount and
>
under the car. There was no fluid residue anywhere. The
whole
> undercarriage is clean as a whistle as is everything under the
hood. Is
> there a special kind of fluid to fill the master cylinder
with? Thanks
> Scott Beydler
>
> 1994 Dodge
Stealth
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:29:53
-0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Poor Gas mileage and getting worse
> Spark plugs: checked
them appeared ok but from 1992
>
> Wires: replaced front 3 (rest
are from 92 as well)
[Willis, Charles E.]
Replace the plugs and
other three wires. While you're at it clean
out the intake manifold
plenum with solvent before reinstalling it. You
might also clean the
EGR valve. If you went to the trouble to inspect the
plugs, you
should've changed them, but I bet you didn't look at the
back
three.
> O2 sensor(s): How many are there and could this be
the cause?
>
> Fuel filter: how many are there?
>
[Willis, Charles E.] There's one, under the battery on
the
firewall. There's a vapor filter back on the gas tank, but that
doesn't
matter.
> Ever since I purchased to car I noticed black
soot at the tail pipes. Am I
> burning rich? how do I fix this?
>
> Any ideas or suggestions are appreciated
> Thanks!
> Greg
Gonzales
> 92 RT TT
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:33:11
-0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: rotors
no. The 1st gen front calipers will not clear
the 2nd gen rotor. That's
why the 2nd gen frront calipers are different
- the stick out farther from
the hub - the pistons and all are identical to
1st gen.
I suppose an imaginative person could fabricate an adapter that
would extend
the reach of the 1st gen calipers.
Chuck
Willis
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Darc
[SMTP:wce@telus.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 10:30 PM
>
To: Team3S
> Subject: Team3S: rotors
>
> Here's a question
Team
>
> Will a second gen rotor bolt onto a first gen
without replacing the first
> gen calipers? I assume the second gen
rotor is superior to the first gen,
> so why not replace if it's time if
one can. Thoughts solicited.
>
> Best
>
>
Darc
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 06:21:12
-0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <
stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject:
Re: Team3S: Poor Gas mileage and getting worse
Greg,
One item I
didn't see on your list was pressure testing the intake
track. Do this to see
if you have developed a leak somewhere -
split/cracked hose, leak in IC or
TB, etc. When air leaks out after
the MAS (assuming you are not running a
VPC), the ECM cannot
compensate and so the fuel mixture richens.
I
found a HUGE leak in my right IC (Alamo type, cracks where end caps
welded
onto body). Car ran fine (drove it to Norwalk DSM shootout and
back from
Colorado). But gas mileage was so-so (14-16 in town, 20 on
highways) and
boost was limited to 16-18 psi and seemed generally
"wimpy". My web page
below shows hows to build a tester for less than
$20. 3SX sells one also for
about $60.
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius3/j3-2-pressuretester.htmJeff
Lucius,
www.stealth316.com- ---
Greg Gonzales <
greggonzo1@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Over the past 8 months my gas mileage has gone done from about
18
> mpg to just under 16.
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 06:16:32
-0700 (PDT)
From: John Christian <
jczoom_619@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
Team3S: Front Cat sucsessfully Gutted!!
Hi T>J>
Yep.
Rear pre-cat attaches to the rear turbo.
Doesn't show in the
gif. And the rear one is usually
the most difficult to
gut.
Be of good cheer,
John
- --- Thomas Jeys <
tj@jeys.net> wrote:
> When I was under
the car, I pulled out the cat that
> comes directly off the
> front
turbo and gutted it. I saw the rear cat (the
> one that is about a
foot
> and a half long) right after the flexible pipe but
> didn't
touch it. Is
> there a cat that comes right off the rear turbo
as
> well that I missed? Is it
> in the T junction?
>
http://www.3si.org/member-home/stim3/tim_11-04.gif>
On the turbo model it
> only shows 2 cats, is what it calls the "Front
Pipe"
> another one?
>
> T.J.
> 92' 3000GT
VR-4
Please respond to
jczoom@iname.com'93 TT with Porsche
brakes and Supra TT rotors
12.4@109MPH
5/97 almost stock
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:36:44
-0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: clutch adjustible?
So the point of clutch engagement is
adjustable, but saying it is NOT
adjustable is NOT a LIE?
If not a
lie, it is certainly well short of the truth.
Chuck Willis
>
-----Original Message-----
> From: Philip V. Glazatov
[SMTP:gphilip@umich.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 12:03
AM
> To:
Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Subject: RE: Team3S: clutch adjustible?
>
> No, it is not the
biggest lie. The clutch is adjustable but only within a
> small range
and, if properly adjusted, cannot really be changed much. If
> you try to
turn this shaft out too much there will be no free play. This
> may mean
that there will be pressure accumulating in the clutch hydraulic
>
circuit and clutch will not be fully disengaging.
>
> My advice is
to turn this shaft out as much as possible but not reduce the
>
>
minimum free play below recommended in the manual. The second thing is to
> bleed the clutch. I think there is a way to do this with only removing
the
>
> battery and not the intake manifold, although I have not
tried it myself
> yet.
>
> Philip
>
> At 02:39
PM 09/18/01, Willis, Charles E. wrote:
> >That is the biggest lie in
the automotive industry - spread by Mitsu
> factory
> >trained
service personnel!
> >
> >Look in the Service manual - you CAN
adjust where the clutch engages - it
> is
> >just a royal pain in
the rump. You have to get under the dashboard under
> >the pedals
and turn a shaft that actuates the clutch booster.
> >
> >You
need a good clutch shop who will check your slave cylinder and master
>
>cylinder and properly adjust your clutch.
> >
> >Chuck
Willis
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:41:32
-0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <
cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject:
RE: Team3S: Turbo magazine back issue request (RWD VR4 info)
I find AWD
to be very tolerant of my mediocre driving skills, but you can't
defy the
laws of physics and stay on the track. I can't imaging someone
going to
that much trouble to disable the FWD on our cars, unless he just
couldn't
figure out how to deal with or tune out the understeer.
Chuck
Willis
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jannusch, Matt
[SMTP:mjannusch@marketwatch.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 11:56
PM
> To: Team3s Tech List
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Turbo magazine back
issue request (RWD VR4 info)
>
> > But like some road course
drivers will enforce, the AWD makes
> > us a better driver than we
really are and it has saved our
> > metal more than once. I
don't think too many people will
> > dispute that technically, the
AWD/AWS system on the VR-4 will
> > best any RWD car in traction and
control. Most likely it is
> > the driver's fault in not
learning the AWD that makes them
> > dangerous. This, however,
is not a race driving list but
> > technically I don't think there is
much of a dispute.
>
> I agree that the AWD/AWS can make up to some
extent for poor driving and
> allow average drivers to go faster with more
control. Once you pass the
> limits (which are* rather high) these
cars can be real quick to fly
> straight
> off the road. Don't
make the mistake of relying on the AWD/AWS to save
> you
> from
yourself - at some point it just won't be enough.
>
> It isn't
necessarily not knowing how the AWD/AWS reacts. Once you cross
>
past the cornering limits there isn't much left to grab control back
with.
> The limits are probably higher than most people think, but they
are still
> there.
>
> -Matt
> '95 3000GT Spyder
VR4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 07:44:55
-0600
From: "Thomas Jeys" <
tj@jeys.net>
Subject: Team3S: Front
Cat
You mean I had it in my hand and put it back in?? D'OH!!!
T.J.
92' 3000GT VR-4
*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:57:10
-0400
From: "Jeff VanOrsdal" <
jeffv@1nce.com>
Subject: Team3S: Brembo
3S Specific brake upgrade
I was looking around Brembo's website today and
noticed they have listings
for the Stealth and 3000GT on their brake upgrade
page. Apparently it's
under development because the part number is only
listed as "TBA" I'm left
wondering how this will compare to the various
adapted Porsche upgrades that
guys like Brad and KVR have built. Does
anyone have more information on
this setup?
The parts page is at the
following link:
http://www.brembo.com/prod_highperform.htmlJeff
VanOrsdal
1991 Stealth ESX Twin Turbo
jeffv@1nce.com*** Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 06:57:40
-0700
From: Wayne <
whietala@prodigy.net>
Subject: RE:
Team3S: Turbo magazine back issue request (RWD VR4 info)
The reason this
guy disabled the AWD was not because he was more
comfortable with RWD, or
did not know how to drive an AWD. He did it to
eliminate the weakest link in
our drivetrain.....the tranny/transfer. Keep
in mind that he was building a
575+hp/550 ft-lb engine back in 93, when
most TT owners were middle aged
business men who's last thought was making
the car faster.
***
Info:
http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm
***
------------------------------
End of Team3S: 3000GT &
Stealth V1
#616
***************************************