Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth  Tuesday, September 11 2001  Volume 01 : Number 607




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Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:04:44 -0000
From: "Sam Shelat" <sshelat@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Ignition key won't come out

Why don't you try wiggling the steering wheel and pushing the button at the
same time to release the key.  This works for American cars with the same
locking device.

Sam


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:12:35 -0000
From: "Sam Shelat" <sshelat@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Need a quick answer!! Please help!!

>Thank you all for the help in a pinch, I got them installed. There is
>some noise going on, I'm going to wait a few more days to see if it goes
>away, if not I'll be back with some more questions on the Intrax for the
>TT's & VR4's. Thanks again all for the help!
>
>Matt Nelson
>1994 RT TT
Mine was making noise and it was the strut top mount (the piece with the
studs that go through the fender).  Also, I think the yellow plastic/rubber
jounce bushing needs to be trimmed, but I am not sure-----the car hits small
bumps and the whole car jars forcefully like its hit its full suspension
travel even though that doesn't seem possible with such small compression.
I need to investigate this further--but I think its these rubber pieces
being too long now that the strut is limited by 1.75" of travel now.

Sam


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:28:40 -0000
From: "Sam Shelat" <sshelat@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...actually Stillen sport rotors

Yes the Stillen ones are which I was referring.  I can't understand why my
car can warp new rotors with one or two panic stops from 100+mph.  I thought
is was the hubs and replaced them, all the tie-rods on the rack are new, cv
is new--lugs are always torqued to 90lb-ft in criss cross pattern by me.
Its a total mystery how anyone could actually run races at the track with
these things.  I use stock brake pads and the brake fluid has more then
60,000 miles (its clean/clear)--so maybe thats the answer!?

Sam
- -----Original Message-----
From: Willis, Charles E. <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
To: Team3S <team3s@speedracer.speedtoys.com>
Date: Monday, September 10, 2001 2:05 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...actually Stillen sport rotors


>I'm surprised - my experience with the car candy has been pretty good.  We
>ARE still talking about the Stillen Sport rotors, yes?
>
>Chuck
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sam Shelat [SMTP:sshelat@erols.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 2:08 PM
>> To: Jannusch, Matt; Team3S
>> Subject: Re: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...
>>
>> .............yah, but they come with a disclaimer that they are not for
>> track use.  That was totally unexpected, and when they warped only
>> slightly
>> less quickly then the stock ones and very quickly after I had them
>> machined
>> again (warped when I bought them), I knew  they were just car candy and
>> not
>> a real improvement at all.
>>
>> Sam

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:51:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Christian <jczoom_619@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: Brief track report - TWS Lone Star PCA

Hi Chuck,

The stick on lead weights that are placed on the inner
rim surface can be better secured with a bead of glue
at all edges.  But it's simpler to use DUCT tape, the
racers salvation, over the whole string of weights.

Be of good cheer,
John



- --- "Willis, Charles E."
<cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org> wrote:
>
> I noticed that I lost several lead wheel weights
> this time.  I need to see
> if there's a better way to secure these things. Ran
>

=====
Please respond to jczoom@iname.com
'93 TT with Porsche brakes and Supra TT rotors
12.4@109MPH  5/97 almost stock
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:06:08 -0500
From: "Todd D.Shelton" <tds@brightok.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Which downpipe?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jannusch, Matt <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
To: Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
Date: Friday, August 24, 2001 12:48 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Which downpipe?


>
>That's the pipe I'm using right now, but am considering switching to the
>Stillen or ATR pipe.  The Alamo pipe's fitment to the rear precat is pretty
>poor.  The alignment is off by a few degrees which makes the gasket not
seal
>all the way, and I question whether the pipe is possibly even blocking part
>of the exhaust output from the precat due to the poor fitment.  My gasket
>comes out with a carbonized 1" wide band on one side when I take the
>downpipe off, so something isn't right.  I know at least one other person
>who complained of the same problem.
>
>The pipe has also rubbed against part of the frame, although that could be
>because the front bulkhead on my Spyder is specially reinforced compared to
>the standard VR4 coupe so the dimensions are probably a little different.
>
>The flex section on mine also disintegrated.  Alamo was good enough to ship
>me a replacement flex section, but you need to take the pipe to a shop to
>get it welded onto the pipe yourself (unless you've got a TIG welder handy
>in your garage).
>
>Overall, I do think it is a good downpipe, but check the fitment on your
car
>carefully and return it if it doesn't fit right.  Its certainly possible
>that there are just a few bad ones out there and that most are good.
>
>I've got a high-flow 3" main cat on my car with flanges to mate between the
>stock or Alamo downpipe and my Borla cat-back.  Works great, but it seems
>difficult to find testpipes for this setup.  I know I could make one for
>about $5, but I just haven't had time.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --

This is the first problem I've heard of with this DP.

Something isn't right with the fitment of either your particular dp or
something is different with the Spyder?

I know it's probably too late to replace or return but this problem should
not have been accepted.

I have the first dp Alamo made - they used my old Hennessey dp to build
a prototype when my car was down and I got a better dp for free out of the
deal.

Seems like it was around 96' or so?  I've never had any problems at all.  We
had
my dp off the car a few weeks ago and there was no sign of carbon on
gaskets, rubbing
frame or anything like that ............

Something just isn't right - if there were this many inherent design flaws
everyone and
their dog would be posting about them, returning them and giving Alamo hell.

I would be the first one in line.

- - tds  [catching up on email ......]


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 22:44:43 -0500
From: "Jannusch, Matt" <mjannusch@marketwatch.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Which downpipe?

> Something isn't right with the fitment of either your
> particular dp or something is different with the Spyder?

The motor is exactly the same as everyone else's, so the poor fitment to the
rear precat is a problem not induced by my car.  I can accept that it
hitting the frame could be something about my car since the front firewall
is reinforced somewhat over the stock car.

> I know it's probably too late to replace or return
> but this problem should not have been accepted.

The downpipe was on the car already from the previous owner.  I was the
first one to take it back off and inspect it.

> Something just isn't right - if there were this many
> inherent design flaws everyone and their dog would be
> posting about them, returning them and giving Alamo hell.

Hmm, I think Oskar had the same problem with his not lining up on the rear
precat correctly also.  I think his mentioning of the problem was what made
me think more carefully about why the carbon was getting on the gasket and
then I realized that mine didn't align correctly either.  I don't recall if
Alamo did anything to help him or not.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: 10 Sep 2001 21:40:53 -0700
From: John Monnin <jkmonnin@altavista.com>
Subject: Team3S: Is bypassing relay good idea?

Several members on 3si board have bypassed the fuel pump relay so that the fuel pump get 12V all the time.  Is this going to cause other problems?

John Monnin
jkmonnin@altavista.com

Original message below

When the engine is running below 3000 rpm the first fuel pump relay is active (to
keep the pump running) and the second relay connects the resistor to the line to
lower the voltage to about 9 V to lower stress to the pump as well to prevent too
much fuel pressure. After 3000 the voltage is switched to 12V to provide full pressure
the pump can deliver. The pump doesn\'t know anything about the pressure nor does
the ECU know. This is onyl the fuel pressure regulator that is controlled by the
manifold pressure that compensates for boost situations (where the injecors have
to spray against) 
 

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 23:41:18 -0500
From: "Oskar" <osk@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Which downpipe?

The problems have been noticed with second gen. cars.  I do not think it is
specific to the Spyder.  Keep in mind that the flange of the rear collector
is orientated differently on the second gen. cars.  I had this problem, and
I noticed it immediately when installing the DP.  It did bolt up, but it was
noticeably off-center.  Since I was going to the track I decided to use it
anyway.  When I later tore the DP off I could see the carbon buildup on a
portion of the flange of the rear collector.  There was definitely a flow
problem with this setup.  When Matt installed his 15Gs we noticed the exact
same problem on his DP.  His DP was probably purchased well over a year
before I purchased mine.

I did return mine for a refund.  Alamo did not acknowledge the problem at
all, even after receiving the DP.  They reluctantly accepted the return only
after I continued to bug them.  I think it would be worth hearing from
others with second gen. cars using the Alamo DP.  You cannot really see this
problem until the DP is removed.

Oskar

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd D.Shelton" <tds@brightok.net>

> --
>
> This is the first problem I've heard of with this DP.
>
> Something isn't right with the fitment of either your particular dp or
> something is different with the Spyder?
>
> I know it's probably too late to replace or return but this problem should
> not have been accepted.
>
> I have the first dp Alamo made - they used my old Hennessey dp to build
> a prototype when my car was down and I got a better dp for free out of the
> deal.
>
> Seems like it was around 96' or so?  I've never had any problems at all.
We
> had
> my dp off the car a few weeks ago and there was no sign of carbon on
> gaskets, rubbing
> frame or anything like that ............
>
> Something just isn't right - if there were this many inherent design flaws
> everyone and
> their dog would be posting about them, returning them and giving Alamo
hell.
>
> I would be the first one in line.
>
> - tds  [catching up on email ......]

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 00:09:31 -0500
From: "Todd D.Shelton" <tds@brightok.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Which downpipe?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Oskar <osk@mediaone.net>
To: Team3S <team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Date: Monday, September 10, 2001 11:43 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Which downpipe?


>The problems have been noticed with second gen. cars.  I do not think it is
>specific to the Spyder.  Keep in mind that the flange of the rear collector
>is orientated differently on the second gen. cars.  I had this problem, and
>I noticed it immediately when installing the DP.  It did bolt up, but it
was
>noticeably off-center.  Since I was going to the track I decided to use it
>anyway.  When I later tore the DP off I could see the carbon buildup on a
>portion of the flange of the rear collector.  There was definitely a flow
>problem with this setup.  When Matt installed his 15Gs we noticed the exact
>same problem on his DP.  His DP was probably purchased well over a year
>before I purchased mine.
>
>I did return mine for a refund.  Alamo did not acknowledge the problem at
>all, even after receiving the DP.  They reluctantly accepted the return
only
>after I continued to bug them.  I think it would be worth hearing from
>others with second gen. cars using the Alamo DP.  You cannot really see
this
>problem until the DP is removed.
>
>Oskar

If there is a difference between 1st and 2nd gen in the area you are
referring to
that could explain a lot.

I have the 1st gen of course and I don't think Hennessey built anything
specifically
for the 2nd gen - went to strictly Vipers around that time ............

It's all my fault for letting them use my 1st gen Henn dp to build the
proto!  :)

Actually - I didn't know they were going to do this.  The first time I knew
something was up was when Chris Dotur left Alamo Arlington with
a dandy used Hennessey dp around the time of the Temple drag
meet and road race out by Weatherford. (My car was having
an extended stay at the shop during this time period)

Next time I went down I found out about the "new" production item.
B Fontana's 3K was stranded there as well ................ compression,
clutch ....

I don't think they realize (or have acknowleged) a difference in fitment
between
1st and 2nd gen?

What about other vender's dpipes?  Do they make 2 different versions for
1st and 2nd gen?

I'll be down there either this weekend or next - I could inquire?

- - tds

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 01:00:43 -0500
From: "Oskar" <osk@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Which downpipe?

>
> I don't think they realize (or have acknowleged) a difference in fitment
> between
> 1st and 2nd gen?
>
> - tds

Yes they do - they have two different DPs.  One for 91-93 (E133010), one for
94-up (E133011).

The issue is not that they have not recognized this - the issue is that the
version intended for the second gen. has been found to not fit very well on
at least two cars.

The flange orientation is explained below.  Quoted from an e-mail sent by
Jack T on Wednesday, September 15, 1999 6:55 AM to the Team3S list (remember
Sirius?):

"The 91-93 vs. 94+front precats are different flange bolt orientation on the
distal end; and the 94 precat is SLIGHTLY shorter, also.  You can
not bolt one in place of the other, I tried.  I would definitely buy the
specific year fit downpipe from the outset.
Jack Tertadian"

Oskar

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

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Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 04:26:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Christian <jczoom_619@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Nice home town race track!

Hi Walt,

VIR was on my schedule last year, but my Stealth broke
down.  Hope to run VIR next season.  Let me know if
you get a group of 3S's together for an event.

Be of good cheer,
John


- --- "WALTER D. BEST" <WDBO39@erols.com> wrote:
> Everyone I spoke to, DC Region SCCA Driver's have
> said this is a beautiful
> track and to run the main course 3.27 miles is
> supposed to be a real blast.
> Facilities are also real nice and it was just
> remodeled and reopened about 2
> years ago.
>
> Dave Best
> DC Region Tech Inspector
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rick" <melvin@gamewood.net>
> To: "Team3S" <Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st>
> Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 2:23 AM
> Subject: Team3S: Nice home town race track!
>
>
> >   Thought some of you track guys might wanna look
> into this track and
> > see if we could use it.I have'nt really talked to
> anyone about that,so
> > feel free if you like.Paul Newman(actor, race
> driver loves it),and it
> > does look fun.
> >   http://www.virclub.com/index.htm
> >  Might be a good place for a gathering.Think it's
> about done for the
> > year now,but you might wann chack it out.
> >   RICK

Please respond to jczoom@iname.com
'93 TT with Porsche brakes and Supra TT rotors
12.4@109MPH  5/97 almost stock
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 05:57:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Need a quick answer!! Please help!!

When you lower the suspension (by using shorter springs) you will
likely have to cut the bump stop. Measure the number of coils and the
coil thickness. Now calculate what the coil length will be at full
compression (e.g., 6.5 coils at 0.5" each would be 3.25"). Now look
at the distance from the base of the coil to the top of the thick
(lower) part of the strut. Subtract that distance from the spring's
compressed length to get the minimum thickness for the bump stop. The
longer the stop, the sooner it will "engage" before the spring
reaches maximum compression.

Stock struts and springs:
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius8/j8-2-shockremoval.htm

GC kit with info on top bearing plate:
http://www.geocities.com/lutransys/jlucius8/j8-2-gc-springs.htm

Neat suspension Info:
http://www.geocities.com/chrislonghurst/suspension_bible.html

Jeff Lucius, www.stealth316.com

- --- Sam Shelat <sshelat@erols.com> wrote:
Mine was making noise and it was the strut top mount (the piece
with the studs that go through the fender).  Also, I think the yellow
plastic/rubber jounce bushing needs to be trimmed, but I am not
sure-----the car hits small bumps and the whole car jars forcefully
like its hit its full suspension travel even though that doesn't seem
possible with such small compression. I need to investigate this
further--but I think its these rubber pieces being too long now that
the strut is limited by 1.75" of travel now.

Sam

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:50:36 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Need a quick answer!! Please help!!

the yellow thing you are describing is the bump stop.  with the GC setup, we
have to cut the bump stops roughly in half both front an rear.  Jeff Lucius
shows this nicely.

Chuck Willis

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam Shelat [SMTP:sshelat@erols.com]
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 5:13 PM
> To: BlackLight; dschilberg@pobox.com; Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Need a quick answer!! Please help!!
>
>
>
>
> >Thank you all for the help in a pinch, I got them installed. There is
> >some noise going on, I'm going to wait a few more days to see if it goes
> >away, if not I'll be back with some more questions on the Intrax for the
> >TT's & VR4's. Thanks again all for the help!
> >
> >Matt Nelson
> >1994 RT TT
> Mine was making noise and it was the strut top mount (the piece with the
> studs that go through the fender).  Also, I think the yellow
> plastic/rubber
> jounce bushing needs to be trimmed, but I am not sure-----the car hits
> small
> bumps and the whole car jars forcefully like its hit its full suspension
> travel even though that doesn't seem possible with such small compression.
> I need to investigate this further--but I think its these rubber pieces
> being too long now that the strut is limited by 1.75" of travel now.
>
> Sam

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:06:19 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...actually Stillen sport rotors

Sam,

I don't know why the difference in performance.  For a couple of seasons I
used Stillen metal matrix pads with the sport rotors and didn't have a
warpage problem, but had a significant occasional problem with molten pads.
First application = no brakes, second push = grip.  Also I always use Motul
and bleed the brakes after/before each event.  I started using Panther pads
last season and now use Panther Plus pads.  I do take the time to bed the
pads according to the manufacturers instructions and turn the rotors usually
each event only to remove the glaze, more if there is any warpage, which has
happenned but never to all rotors and never to the extent to remove the
rotor from service.  Torque is same as yours 90 ft lbs (crisscross).  I do
not do a cooldown in the paddock except at Heartland Park.  I have no brake
ducting yet, but I HAVE replaced the front splash guard extensions in the
front of the wheel wells with hardware cloth to increase airflow through the
intercoolers to the front wheels.  I also drive with Volk TE37 wheels which
seem to have good airfow to the rotors and calipers.  I have rebuilt the
stock calipers and I have Goodridge stainless steel brake lines.

I have had to make panic stops, but the usual is hard braking zones are
where you come from 120+ mph down to 90 mph (Turn 2 TWS), 90 mph down to a
downshift to 3rd (60 mph+?) Turn 3 TWS) for a hard right turn, maybe 80 mph
down to 30 mph and a downshift to second (Turn 10 TWS).  Otherwise we're not
really getting close to threshold braking.

I really have no clue what goes on at a drag race in terms of braking -
these are all road course DE's and not really racing.

Chuck

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam Shelat [SMTP:sshelat@erols.com]
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 5:29 PM
> To: Willis, Charles E.; Team3S
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Porterfield Rotors...actually Stillen sport
> rotors
>
> Yes the Stillen ones are which I was referring.  I can't understand why my
> car can warp new rotors with one or two panic stops from 100+mph.  I
> thought
> is was the hubs and replaced them, all the tie-rods on the rack are new,
> cv
> is new--lugs are always torqued to 90lb-ft in criss cross pattern by me.
> Its a total mystery how anyone could actually run races at the track with
> these things.  I use stock brake pads and the brake fluid has more then
> 60,000 miles (its clean/clear)--so maybe thats the answer!?

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:07:17 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: Brief track report - TWS Lone Star PCA

I'll try it after they balance the tires again!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Christian [SMTP:jczoom_619@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 9:52 PM
> To: 3sracers@speedtoys.com; Team3S@stealth-3000gt.st
> Subject: Team3S: Re: 3S-Racers: Brief track report - TWS Lone Star
> PCA
>
> Hi Chuck,
>
> The stick on lead weights that are placed on the inner
> rim surface can be better secured with a bead of glue
> at all edges.  But it's simpler to use DUCT tape, the
> racers salvation, over the whole string of weights.
>
> Be of good cheer,
> John

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:04:27 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center

I know this is off topic but our hearts go out to those who may have been
injured in the recent New York City World Trade Center attack.  A friend of
mine emailed me that he works across the street (or close by) and watched
the second plane hit the building.  Then on the tv I watched as they showed
the entire south building collapsing into the streets.  No doubt there is
massive casualties.

Our hearts are with you all.

- --Darren Schilberg
dschilberg@pobox.com


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:20:28 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center

YES, and now let's all focus on getting the rat bastards that did this ...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Darren Schilberg [SMTP:dschilberg@pobox.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:04 AM
> To: Team3S
> Subject: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center
>
> I know this is off topic but our hearts go out to those who may have been
> injured in the recent New York City World Trade Center attack.  A friend
> of
> mine emailed me that he works across the street (or close by) and watched
> the second plane hit the building.  Then on the tv I watched as they
> showed
> the entire south building collapsing into the streets.  No doubt there is
> massive casualties.
>
> Our hearts are with you all.
>
> --Darren Schilberg
> dschilberg@pobox.com

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:22:06 -0500
From: "Berrios, Victor L  CIV" <VLBerrios@rroads.med.navy.mil>
Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center

The Pentagon is also on fire. Watch CNN

My heart and prayers are with all of them.

Victor

- -----Original Message-----
From: Willis, Charles E. [mailto:cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org]
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:20 AM
To: Team3S
Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center


YES, and now let's all focus on getting the rat bastards that did this ...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Darren Schilberg [SMTP:dschilberg@pobox.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:04 AM
> To: Team3S
> Subject: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center
>
> I know this is off topic but our hearts go out to those who may have been
> injured in the recent New York City World Trade Center attack.  A friend
> of
> mine emailed me that he works across the street (or close by) and watched
> the second plane hit the building.  Then on the tv I watched as they
> showed
> the entire south building collapsing into the streets.  No doubt there is
> massive casualties.
>
> Our hearts are with you all.
>
> --Darren Schilberg
> dschilberg@pobox.com

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 07:43:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Team3S: Attacks continue..

Let me be the first to ask for a moment of mental reflection on the horror
that has happened today.

Also, let us please respect the global makeup of the SOGI list, and
refrain from any generalizations concering who may or may not be
respobsible for such a terrible thing.

Its crap, its painfull to watch, and God's Speed to the victims and
families in this national moment of tragedy.

*New & Improved: http://www.speedtoys.com *

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:48:46 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center

I just watched one of the towers collapse. I can't watch anymore.  Any
residual sympathy in this country for these people's cause has been
eliminated.  Didn't they watch the movie "Pearl Harbor"?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Berrios, Victor L  CIV [SMTP:VLBerrios@rroads.med.navy.mil]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:22 AM
> To: 'tEAM3S@STEALTH-3000GT.ST'
> Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center
>
> The Pentagon is also on fire. Watch CNN
>
> My heart and prayers are with all of them.
>
> Victor
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Willis, Charles E. [mailto:cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:20 AM
> To: Team3S
> Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center
>
>
> YES, and now let's all focus on getting the rat bastards that did this ...
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Darren Schilberg [SMTP:dschilberg@pobox.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:04 AM
> > To: Team3S
> > Subject: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center
> >
> > I know this is off topic but our hearts go out to those who may have
> been
> > injured in the recent New York City World Trade Center attack.  A friend
> > of
> > mine emailed me that he works across the street (or close by) and
> watched
> > the second plane hit the building.  Then on the tv I watched as they
> > showed
> > the entire south building collapsing into the streets.  No doubt there
> is
> > massive casualties.
> >
> > Our hearts are with you all.
> >
> > --Darren Schilberg
> > dschilberg@pobox.com

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:46:29 -0400
From: "Jeff VanOrsdal" <jeffv@1nce.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center

Both towers are down. I've heard there was a 747 crashed 80 miles SE of
Pittsburgh. There are about 25 people in 3SI chat right now relaying news.

Jeff Van.

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of Willis, Charles E.
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:49 AM
To: 'tEAM3S@STEALTH-3000GT.ST'
Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center


I just watched one of the towers collapse. I can't watch anymore.  Any
residual sympathy in this country for these people's cause has been
eliminated.  Didn't they watch the movie "Pearl Harbor"?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Berrios, Victor L  CIV [SMTP:VLBerrios@rroads.med.navy.mil]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:22 AM
> To: 'tEAM3S@STEALTH-3000GT.ST'
> Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center
>
> The Pentagon is also on fire. Watch CNN
>
> My heart and prayers are with all of them.
>
> Victor
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Willis, Charles E. [mailto:cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:20 AM
> To: Team3S
> Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center
>
>
> YES, and now let's all focus on getting the rat bastards that did this ...
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Darren Schilberg [SMTP:dschilberg@pobox.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:04 AM
> > To: Team3S
> > Subject: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center
> >
> > I know this is off topic but our hearts go out to those who may have
> been
> > injured in the recent New York City World Trade Center attack.  A friend
> > of
> > mine emailed me that he works across the street (or close by) and
> watched
> > the second plane hit the building.  Then on the tv I watched as they
> > showed
> > the entire south building collapsing into the streets.  No doubt there
> is
> > massive casualties.
> >
> > Our hearts are with you all.
> >
> > --Darren Schilberg
> > dschilberg@pobox.com

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:56:39 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center

Maybe that is the remaining highjacked plane they mentioned in the Eastern
Corridor.  All other aircraft are grounded or diverted to Canada.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff VanOrsdal [SMTP:jeffv@1nce.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:46 AM
> To: Team3s  Tech List
> Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center
>
> Both towers are down. I've heard there was a 747 crashed 80 miles SE of
> Pittsburgh. There are about 25 people in 3SI chat right now relaying news.
>
> Jeff Van.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
> Of Willis, Charles E.
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:49 AM
> To: 'tEAM3S@STEALTH-3000GT.ST'
> Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center
>
>
> I just watched one of the towers collapse. I can't watch anymore.  Any
> residual sympathy in this country for these people's cause has been
> eliminated.  Didn't they watch the movie "Pearl Harbor"?
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Berrios, Victor L  CIV [SMTP:VLBerrios@rroads.med.navy.mil]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:22 AM
> > To: 'tEAM3S@STEALTH-3000GT.ST'
> > Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center
> >
> > The Pentagon is also on fire. Watch CNN
> >
> > My heart and prayers are with all of them.
> >
> > Victor
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Willis, Charles E. [mailto:cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:20 AM
> > To: Team3S
> > Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center
> >
> >
> > YES, and now let's all focus on getting the rat bastards that did this
> ...
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Darren Schilberg [SMTP:dschilberg@pobox.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:04 AM
> > > To: Team3S
> > > Subject: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center
> > >
> > > I know this is off topic but our hearts go out to those who may have
> > been
> > > injured in the recent New York City World Trade Center attack.  A
> friend
> > > of
> > > mine emailed me that he works across the street (or close by) and
> > watched
> > > the second plane hit the building.  Then on the tv I watched as they
> > > showed
> > > the entire south building collapsing into the streets.  No doubt there
> > is
> > > massive casualties.
> > >
> > > Our hearts are with you all.
> > >
> > > --Darren Schilberg
> > > dschilberg@pobox.com

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:47:27 -0400
From: "Darren Schilberg" <dschilberg@pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center

Yes a 747 is down in Somerset county (about an hour SE of Pittsburgh, PA)
but I have not heard if this is terrorist or just a "fluke" that made it
crash.  Maybe it was a third plane that was just reported to have been
hijacked in order to fly into the Pentagon.

- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
Of Jeff VanOrsdal
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:46 AM
To: Team3s Tech List
Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center


Both towers are down. I've heard there was a 747 crashed 80 miles SE of
Pittsburgh. There are about 25 people in 3SI chat right now relaying news.

Jeff Van.


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:06:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center

There were two planes that were 'unaccounted for' by the FAA as possible
hijacks as well.

This could be one of them.

On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Darren Schilberg wrote:

> Yes a 747 is down in Somerset county (about an hour SE of Pittsburgh, PA)
> but I have not heard if this is terrorist or just a "fluke" that made it
> crash.  Maybe it was a third plane that was just reported to have been
> hijacked in order to fly into the Pentagon.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-team3s@team3s.com [mailto:owner-team3s@team3s.com]On Behalf
> Of Jeff VanOrsdal
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:46 AM
> To: Team3s Tech List
> Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center
>
>
> Both towers are down. I've heard there was a 747 crashed 80 miles SE of
> Pittsburgh. There are about 25 people in 3SI chat right now relaying news.
>
> Jeff Van.

*New & Improved: http://www.speedtoys.com *

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:22:05 -0700
From: "Andrew D. Woll" <awoll1@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center

It seems to me that we have watchdog agencies such as the CIA that have
lists of terrorist. Within these lists, it seems to make sense that we
probably have a select few that are known terrorist with information rising
to the 95th percentile. It is too bad we also have federal laws prohibiting
our country from hunting these people down and just shooting them. Maybe it
is time to change the law.

Andy


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:19:12 -0600
From: "Floyd, Jim" <Jim_Floyd@maxtor.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center

You got my vote.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Andrew D. Woll [mailto:awoll1@pacbell.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:22 AM
To: Willis, Charles E.; Team3S
Subject: Re: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center


It seems to me that we have watchdog agencies such as the CIA that have
lists of terrorist. Within these lists, it seems to make sense that we
probably have a select few that are known terrorist with information rising
to the 95th percentile. It is too bad we also have federal laws prohibiting
our country from hunting these people down and just shooting them. Maybe it
is time to change the law.

Andy

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:15:20 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center

In the recent past, the US has not been averse to dropping a Cruise missile
or two on problem areas.  I am afraid we can expect two changes - less
aversion to direct action by the US, more like the Brits, and sacrifice of
personal freedoms and civil liberties that we have become accustomed to so
that agencies responsible for enforcement can protect us more effectively.

Chuck Willis

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew D. Woll [SMTP:awoll1@pacbell.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:22 AM
> To: Willis, Charles E.; Team3S
> Subject: Re: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center
>
> It seems to me that we have watchdog agencies such as the CIA that have
> lists of terrorist. Within these lists, it seems to make sense that we
> probably have a select few that are known terrorist with information
> rising
> to the 95th percentile. It is too bad we also have federal laws
> prohibiting
> our country from hunting these people down and just shooting them. Maybe
> it
> is time to change the law.
>
> Andy

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 09:27:25 -0700
From: "Darc" <wce@telus.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center

Obviously a group or country with the resources to train adhock airline
pilots, rehearse co-ordinated airliner hijackings,  and fund this all,  and
do it in secrecy,  is at the root of these horrific events.  Assume plane
take overs were fast and that flight crews were executed to prevent
interference. This has to be a large group/cell, or a country. BTW Our air
traffic control boys (family employees) are taxed to the limit taking your
diverted and now inbound flights. Hopefully the RCMP will be screening
offloading, although likely all designated hijacked/target planes and their
terrorists are history. This plays out with the same feeling of dumbstruck
numbness and background fear as was elicited by the Kennedy assassination so
long ago.

My deepest empathy to your nation

Darc

Canada

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 11:49:04 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center

Thanks for providing a safe place to land!

Thanks also for your sympathetic feelings, but I think the scope of this
mess sortof eclipses the murder of a single individual, icon or not.

More like Pearl Harbor in many respects.

Chuck

Texas

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Darc [SMTP:wce@telus.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 11:27 AM
> To: Team3S
> Subject: Re: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center
>
> Obviously a group or country with the resources to train adhock airline
> pilots, rehearse co-ordinated airliner hijackings,  and fund this all,
> and
> do it in secrecy,  is at the root of these horrific events.  Assume plane
> take overs were fast and that flight crews were executed to prevent
> interference. This has to be a large group/cell, or a country. BTW Our air
> traffic control boys (family employees) are taxed to the limit taking your
> diverted and now inbound flights. Hopefully the RCMP will be screening
> offloading, although likely all designated hijacked/target planes and
> their
> terrorists are history. This plays out with the same feeling of dumbstruck
> numbness and background fear as was elicited by the Kennedy assassination
> so
> long ago.
>
> My deepest empathy to your nation
>
> Darc
>
> Canada

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:39:53 -0600
From: "Floyd, Jim" <Jim_Floyd@maxtor.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center

Thank you.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Darc [mailto:wce@telus.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:27 AM
To: Team3S
Subject: Re: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center


Obviously a group or country with the resources to train adhock airline
pilots, rehearse co-ordinated airliner hijackings,  and fund this all,  and
do it in secrecy,  is at the root of these horrific events.  Assume plane
take overs were fast and that flight crews were executed to prevent
interference. This has to be a large group/cell, or a country. BTW Our air
traffic control boys (family employees) are taxed to the limit taking your
diverted and now inbound flights. Hopefully the RCMP will be screening
offloading, although likely all designated hijacked/target planes and their
terrorists are history. This plays out with the same feeling of dumbstruck
numbness and background fear as was elicited by the Kennedy assassination so
long ago.

My deepest empathy to your nation

Darc

Canada

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:57:37 +0200
From: Roger Gerl <roger.gerl@bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center

Our Swiss board (7 people, we do not have a president) just had a press
conference and they were shocked like the whole little country is. We felt
and still feel very, very bad when we heard and saw what is going on. When
the second tower collapsed some of us had tears in their eyes... how can
this ever happen ?? We have informed all flights to the US to turn back and
the first ones just arrived a few minutes ago. Maybe some of you know that
Zürich,Switzerland is a jump over airport for jewish people flying from Tel
Aviv to New York. This is why the security is very high on Swissair planes
and we are very anxious that something like that may happen in any place on
the world !

Please apologize my bad English as I'm not prepared to write down our
feelings in this moment. God save you all !

Roger

Switzerland


***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:19:00 -0500
From: "Willis, Charles E." <cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org>
Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center

Roger,

Thanks for your good wishes and good luck to y'all, too!

Over here we have been pampered by our geographical isolation from the rest
of the world.  Our complacency led to the suspension of universal military
service and an extremely open society that is highly critical of any
infringement of civil liberty.  How many of us have griped about the
"heightened security" measures at our airports when we're trying to check in
for a flight?  Things are likely to be very different around here for some
time to come ...

Chuck

Texas


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roger Gerl [SMTP:roger.gerl@bluewin.ch]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 11:58 AM
> To: Team3S
> Subject: Re: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center
>
> Our Swiss board (7 people, we do not have a president) just had a press
> conference and they were shocked like the whole little country is. We felt
>
> and still feel very, very bad when we heard and saw what is going on. When
>
> the second tower collapsed some of us had tears in their eyes... how can
> this ever happen ?? We have informed all flights to the US to turn back
> and
> the first ones just arrived a few minutes ago. Maybe some of you know that
>
> Zürich,Switzerland is a jump over airport for jewish people flying from
> Tel
> Aviv to New York. This is why the security is very high on Swissair planes
>
> and we are very anxious that something like that may happen in any place
> on
> the world !
>
> Please apologize my bad English as I'm not prepared to write down our
> feelings in this moment. God save you all !
>
> Roger
>
> Switzerland
>

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 10:14:23 -0700
From: Robert Koch <rakoch.bmd@primusint.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center

I heard on the news....now this is about as reliable as a rubber crutch in
hospital as all news reports are and I am about as far as you could be from
this crisis, We are being told that perhaps thousands made it out right
after the first plane. 18 minutes later the second hit maybe enough time to
get some out. "they" say from the 110 floors in each building if you were
on 60 and up you had no chance. 20k per building at 10 am EDT. Those things
were full.
So  you figure 45-50% of the 40k total....yeah an exaggeration but not by
much.........probably in the 20k mark by day 7 of this tragedy. I can't
stand not being able to do anything at this moment. I will most certainly
donate profits from my cover plates to the cause of relief with the
victims. I will consider giving blood to our local bank in hopes that
anything will help, I encourage others to do so as well. ( I have never
donated blood before, today is a good day to do so).

- -----Original Message-----
From: Willis, Charles E. [SMTP:cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org]
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:05 AM
To: 'Robert Koch'
Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center

You are damned right about retribution that needs to be swift and surgical.
It's hard to worry about collateral damage to a culture that deifies
cowardly behavior against unarmed civilians.  But let's not exaggerate - we
lost about 60,000 people in Vietnam - there are a lot of names on the wall,
about the number we were losing each year in traffic fatalities in the US
at
that time.  There are obviously thousands of casualties here, but doesn't
look close on the slaughter scale.

Your turn: cut their nuts off!

Chuck Willis
NDSM X2

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Koch [SMTP:rakoch.bmd@primusint.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 11:48 AM
> To: 'Willis, Charles E.'
> Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center
>
> Godspeed....to those victims in both the airliners as well as those on
the
>
> ground and in the buildings. I am completely speechless. After viewing
the
>
> news in the Palestinian countries and watching them parade as we do only
> after a Super bowl or World Series, I find myself trying very hard not to
> hate those by race or creed. This will be a very trying time for our
homes
>
> and families. In one swoop we may have lost more Americans then we did in
> Vietnam. I am deeply saddened with this.
>
> This must be delt with in a swift manner, Those responsible must be
> eliminated with extreme prejudice.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Willis, Charles E. [SMTP:cewillis@TexasChildrensHospital.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:15 AM
> To: Team3S
> Subject: RE: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center
>
> In the recent past, the US has not been averse to dropping a Cruise
> missile
> or two on problem areas.  I am afraid we can expect two changes - less
> aversion to direct action by the US, more like the Brits, and sacrifice
of
> personal freedoms and civil liberties that we have become accustomed to
so
> that agencies responsible for enforcement can protect us more
effectively.
>
> Chuck Willis
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Andrew D. Woll [SMTP:awoll1@pacbell.net]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:22 AM
> > To: Willis, Charles E.; Team3S
> > Subject: Re: Team3S: OT: Attack on World Trade Center
> >
> > It seems to me that we have watchdog agencies such as the CIA that have
> > lists of terrorist. Within these lists, it seems to make sense that we
> > probably have a select few that are known terrorist with information
> > rising
> > to the 95th percentile. It is too bad we also have federal laws
> > prohibiting
> > our country from hunting these people down and just shooting them.
Maybe
> > it
> > is time to change the law.
> >
> > Andy

***  Info:  http://www.Team3S.com/Rules.htm  ***

------------------------------

End of Team3S: 3000GT & Stealth V1 #607
***************************************