team3s             Thursday, May 11 2000             Volume 01 : Number 133




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 16:33:04 -0400
From: Steve Lasher <s_lasher@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Team3S: Motor Oil

What brands of motor oil do most of you on the list use?  I typically
use Mobil 1 Synthetic on the street and RedLine on the track.  Sometimes
I use Castrol Syntec (If Mobil 1 is unavailable).  However, I ran into a
guy who owns an Oil Distributorship, and he was absolutely positive that
the best oil on the market was Amsoil.  He said it outperformed RedLine
in every test.  He said Mobil 1 isn’t really all synthetic, which is why
they can’t print “100%” Synthetic on the bottle (They say “Fully”
Synthetic).  I was a bit surprised, since I’d heard so much about
RedLine & Mobil 1, but then I realized that I didn’t know of any
independent testing that actually showed which oil was best.  Is there a
site that shows an independent test comparing Amsoil with RedLine &
Mobil 1?

This guy went on to say that Amsoil oil filters were much better than
Mobil 1 filters as well – in both flow capacity & filtration.  He said
Mobil 1 filters remove particles down to 20 microns, while Amsoil
filters remove particles under 5 microns.   If that wasn’t enough, he
finally said that Amsoil Air Filters outperformed K&N Air filters in
both air flow and filtration.

After talking with him, I felt like I’d just been given a snake oil
sales pitch.  Is this stuff that good, or was he full of it?  And more
importantly, is there a site with independent test results on this
stuff?

- -Steve
'92 VR-4


***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 13:31:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Motor Oil

Im a redline guy street and track...tranny and LSD as well.

The extended change intervals you can get because of the total lack of
synthetic breakdown makes up for the cost.

Of course..being a famimly friend of the Sr VP and Chief Chemist for
redline helps, but doesnt affect my judgement..im just that much closer to
the facts.

- ---
I LUV YOU VIRUS UPDATE!

*Are you really that lonely and _pathetic_ that you decided to open an attachment listed as
a love letter from nobody you know?  This isnt a virus thats choking Email server, its
intelligently deciding who should have thier computers taken away by force.
- ---

On Thu, 11 May 2000, Steve Lasher wrote:

> What brands of motor oil do most of you on the list use?  I typically
> use Mobil 1 Synthetic on the street and RedLine on the track.  Sometimes
> I use Castrol Syntec (If Mobil 1 is unavailable).  However, I ran into a
> guy who owns an Oil Distributorship, and he was absolutely positive that
> the best oil on the market was Amsoil.  He said it outperformed RedLine
> in every test.  He said Mobil 1 isn’t really all synthetic, which is why
> they can’t print “100%” Synthetic on the bottle (They say “Fully”
> Synthetic).  I was a bit surprised, since I’d heard so much about
> RedLine & Mobil 1, but then I realized that I didn’t know of any
> independent testing that actually showed which oil was best.  Is there a
> site that shows an independent test comparing Amsoil with RedLine &
> Mobil 1?
>
> This guy went on to say that Amsoil oil filters were much better than
> Mobil 1 filters as well – in both flow capacity & filtration.  He said
> Mobil 1 filters remove particles down to 20 microns, while Amsoil
> filters remove particles under 5 microns.   If that wasn’t enough, he
> finally said that Amsoil Air Filters outperformed K&N Air filters in
> both air flow and filtration.
>
> After talking with him, I felt like I’d just been given a snake oil
> sales pitch.  Is this stuff that good, or was he full of it?  And more
> importantly, is there a site with independent test results on this
> stuff?
>
> -Steve
> '92 VR-4
>
>
> ***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
>


***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 16:46:20 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: What's next?

We tested my suspension upgrades yesterday, and now I'm not sure where to
go from here.

An instructor measured the tire temps after a couple of hot laps (immediate
turn off the track, directly to the pyrometer, no cool down at ALL!). The
tires read 190 deg inside and out, and 185 in the center. The instructor
says that was absolutely dead-on perfect, and I should be very happy,
because lots of guys agonize over getting their tire temps to a 5-deg
spread and I got it the first time out (pure luck, gang! Or maybe a good
suspension shop.). He says I could make miniscule changes in the tire
pressure to get 190 all the way across, but he'd leave it alone otherwise.

Observers say the car corners completely flat.

I am wondering what to do next, if at all.

Here's the situation: I run Eibach springs (550 front/315 rear) with Ground
Control adjustable suspension and camber plates on stock struts. The car
has been  lowered 1.5 in. all the way around. It has Yoko A032R tires. I
run 1 deg negative camber, +0.15 toe, and maximum castor (+4.5 deg). We
tested on a 0.7 mile/13 turn go kart track with about a 60 mph average
speed, top speed of 70+, nice warm spring day, and ran 75 laps. We ran
about 40 laps before checking tire temps.

I can still get some push and scrub the front tires, but two instructors
tell me I am overdriving the tires when that happens, and I should go a
little slower to go faster. There is no question that *I* have to improve
to go faster (be smoother and more consistent), but my question involve car
prep:

Is there anything else I can do to improve the CAR'S cornering ability?
Sway bars? Chassis stiffeners? Polyurethane bushings?  Or do the tire
temperatures say that I am at the optimum point now?

Mitsubishi lore says that the Eibachs will ruin my stock struts very
quickly, because the stock shocks can't take the abuse from the higher rate
springs. So, what kind of shocks should I go to next? GABs seem to be the
strut of choice for Mitsus.

Another instructor said to leave the furshlugginer suspension alone and
just get more seat time. He also suggested I forgoe any horsepower mods
until I get used to the new suspension. I'm still running a stock engine.
(I was kinda hoping that my suspension mods were at an end, so I could kick
it up to 400 hp)

All advice is welcome.

Rich/94 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 AWD



***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:19:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Idling Trouble

Joe,

Have you checked **every one** of the items in the service
manual troubleshooting list for this problem? My 92 TT was
idling weird. I checked almost every item in the list, and found
each component to be working fine (including everything
associated with the TB). Then I reached the item I had left to
last because I didn't see how it related because the car ran
fine otherwise. It was the crank angle sensor, the CAS worked
fine but the timing was off. I fixed the timing and idle is now
fine. I am not suggesting that the CAS is your problem, but that
you should work methodically through the troubleshooting list.
Sorry I cannot be of more specific help. Good luck.

Jeff Lucius, 3SI #476
Red 1992 Stealth TT - modified
  --> http://www.3si.org/member-home/jlucius/

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <TrboDrvr@aol.com>
To: <team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 2:13 PM
Subject: Team3S: Idling Trouble

I wonder if anyone can help me diagnose a weird idling problem.

<snip>

Joe 91 TT

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***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:27:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: What's next?

Merrit:

Id have to say that because the front track on our cars is 1" narrower
than the rear track..push is much worse than it needs to be.

Id space out the front at least 1/4" per side, I found a huge increase in
steering ability in Solo2 when I did that, went from last to 2nd place
with that change alone across a two day event...even edged out a nat.
champion in the class.

- ---
I LUV YOU VIRUS UPDATE!

*Are you really that lonely and _pathetic_ that you decided to open an attachment listed as
a love letter from nobody you know?  This isnt a virus thats choking Email server, its
intelligently deciding who should have thier computers taken away by force.
- ---

On Thu, 11 May 2000, Merritt wrote:

> We tested my suspension upgrades yesterday, and now I'm not sure where to
> go from here.
>
> An instructor measured the tire temps after a couple of hot laps (immediate
> turn off the track, directly to the pyrometer, no cool down at ALL!). The
> tires read 190 deg inside and out, and 185 in the center. The instructor
> says that was absolutely dead-on perfect, and I should be very happy,
> because lots of guys agonize over getting their tire temps to a 5-deg
> spread and I got it the first time out (pure luck, gang! Or maybe a good
> suspension shop.). He says I could make miniscule changes in the tire
> pressure to get 190 all the way across, but he'd leave it alone otherwise.
>
> Observers say the car corners completely flat.
>
> I am wondering what to do next, if at all.
>
> Here's the situation: I run Eibach springs (550 front/315 rear) with Ground
> Control adjustable suspension and camber plates on stock struts. The car
> has been  lowered 1.5 in. all the way around. It has Yoko A032R tires. I
> run 1 deg negative camber, +0.15 toe, and maximum castor (+4.5 deg). We
> tested on a 0.7 mile/13 turn go kart track with about a 60 mph average
> speed, top speed of 70+, nice warm spring day, and ran 75 laps. We ran
> about 40 laps before checking tire temps.
>
> I can still get some push and scrub the front tires, but two instructors
> tell me I am overdriving the tires when that happens, and I should go a
> little slower to go faster. There is no question that *I* have to improve
> to go faster (be smoother and more consistent), but my question involve car
> prep:
>
> Is there anything else I can do to improve the CAR'S cornering ability?
> Sway bars? Chassis stiffeners? Polyurethane bushings?  Or do the tire
> temperatures say that I am at the optimum point now?
>
> Mitsubishi lore says that the Eibachs will ruin my stock struts very
> quickly, because the stock shocks can't take the abuse from the higher rate
> springs. So, what kind of shocks should I go to next? GABs seem to be the
> strut of choice for Mitsus.
>
> Another instructor said to leave the furshlugginer suspension alone and
> just get more seat time. He also suggested I forgoe any horsepower mods
> until I get used to the new suspension. I'm still running a stock engine.
> (I was kinda hoping that my suspension mods were at an end, so I could kick
> it up to 400 hp)
>
> All advice is welcome.
>
> Rich/94 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 AWD
>
>
>
> ***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
>


***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:10:28 -0400
From: Mark <pagan@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water injection mounting..

At 03:40 PM 5/11/00 +0200, R.G. wrote:

<snip>
>I'm not sure if it has a level sensor. If you use the pre-pressurized system
>then you cannot use a normal bottle.
>
>Roger
>93'3000GT TT
<snip>

I use a pre-pressurized system and use the front water bottle (I assume the
bottles are made of the same material).  I have no problems, no leaks, a
level sensor and no knock ;), although sealing the top of the bottle was a
fun task.

Mark
'93 R/T TT

***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:41:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water injection mounting..

*laugh*

So just how did you do that?


On Thu, 11 May 2000, Mark wrote:

> At 03:40 PM 5/11/00 +0200, R.G. wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >I'm not sure if it has a level sensor. If you use the pre-pressurized system
> >then you cannot use a normal bottle.
> >
> >Roger
> >93'3000GT TT
> <snip>
>
> I use a pre-pressurized system and use the front water bottle (I assume the
> bottles are made of the same material).  I have no problems, no leaks, a
> level sensor and no knock ;), although sealing the top of the bottle was a
> fun task.
>
> Mark
> '93 R/T TT
>
> ***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
>


***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:23:00 -0500
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: What's next?

>Id have to say that because the front track on our cars is 1" narrower
>than the rear track..push is much worse than it needs to be.
>Id space out the front at least 1/4" per side, I found a huge increase in
>steering ability in Solo2 when I did that, went from last to 2nd place
>with that change alone across a two day event...even edged out a nat.
>champion in the class.
>
How exactly did you do the spacing? With washers, a spacer ring, or what?
You are using Grade 8 longer wheel studs, right?
No problem with clearances on the calipers, strut or fender?
I always thought spacers were a no-no, but I guess it all depends on how
you do it.

Rich/94 VR4


***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:46:46 -0700
From: jeff.mohler@netapp.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Water injection mounting..

Your page lists 18psi, but you dont list any fuel related MODs.

An omission, or are you running 18psi on stock?  Ya cant be..*grin*

- -----Original Message-----
From: Basol, John [mailto:jbasol@Carlson.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 8:28 AM
To: team3s@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: RE: Team3S: Water injection mounting..


Jeff,
About the only other option you have is to mount it in the front
bumper.  I have some pics of this type of install on my web site.
www.geocities.com/jbasol <http://www.geocities.com/jbasol>

Select 1995 Dodge Stealth on the index frame.  About half way down the
Stealth page you'll find a pic of the Spearco tank mounted in my front
bumper.  The location seems to work fine.  Filling the tank is only slightly
more difficult than an underhood mounting.  Good luck.

John Basol
'95 RT/TT



-----Original Message-----
From: jeff.mohler@netapp.com [SMTP:jeff.mohler@netapp.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 10:24 AM
To: swede@pclink.com; gemohler@www.speedtoys.com;
team3s@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: RE: Team3S: Water injection mounting..

I guess you missed the.."> Im not in the mood to reinvent our
battery, and Im
having a tough time
> with alternate locations to mount the res. for the water." part.



-----Original Message-----
From: Oskar [mailto:swede@pclink.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 7:58 PM
To: Geoff Mohler; Team3S
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water injection mounting..


You can get a smaller battery such as the Odyssey ($159 from
www.jegs.com).
This is the same battery as the now discontinued Black Panther.

Oskar
'95 R/T TT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
To: <team3s@www.speedtoys.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 8:40 PM
Subject: Team3S: Water injection mounting..


> Im not in the mood to reinvent our battery, and Im having a tough
time
> with alternate locations to mount the res. for the water.
>
> Any other ideas?
>
> ---
> I LUV YOU VIRUS UPDATE!
>
> *Are you really that lonely and _pathetic_ that you decided to
open an
attachment listed as
> a love letter from nobody you know?  This isnt a virus thats
choking Email
server, its
> intelligently deciding who should have thier computers taken away
by
force.
> ---
>
>
> ***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
>


***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:50:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: What's next?

1/4" spacer ring on each wheel, with hardened steel studs..ya.

Considering theres another .3" to make the front even with the rear, I may
be shopping around a custom rotor with a thicker hat.

Spacers arent a nono, just not on stock studs..and a dangerous nono if you
race like that.

Added track in front increases oversteer..or decreases push (depending how
you look at it)

> How exactly did you do the spacing? With washers, a spacer ring, or what?
> You are using Grade 8 longer wheel studs, right?
> No problem with clearances on the calipers, strut or fender?
> I always thought spacers were a no-no, but I guess it all depends on how
> you do it.
>
> Rich/94 VR4
>
>


***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 16:49:03 -0500
From: Matt Jannusch <MAJ@BigCharts.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Water injection mounting..

> Your page lists 18psi, but you dont list any fuel related MODs.
> An omission, or are you running 18psi on stock?  Ya cant
> be..*grin*

Sure you can...  On stock turbos the boost goes down quickly enough where the stock injectors can mostly keep up.  If you were to upgrade turbos then there's no way you can do it as the airflow is much too high with the higher boost/rpm combination.  I was able to do it as well until I bolted on the 15G's last weekend.  If I try to go above 15 psi now I hit fuel cut, so now I'm forced into the larger injectors.  Still trying to get my ARC-2 working.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:58:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Geoff Mohler <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Water injection mounting..

What problems you having with arc2?

Im about to get one myself..but will probly drive down to LA and have them
install it to cover all bases.

And yes, I have the minor turbonetics upgrade.  Feels good so far, but I
have to plug the WGs back in..cant leave em open like they were before
*heh*

On Thu, 11 May 2000, Matt Jannusch wrote:

> > Your page lists 18psi, but you dont list any fuel related MODs.
> > An omission, or are you running 18psi on stock?  Ya cant
> > be..*grin*
>
> Sure you can...  On stock turbos the boost goes down quickly enough where the stock injectors can mostly keep up.  If you were to upgrade turbos then there's no way you can do it as the airflow is much too high with the higher boost/rpm combination.  I was able to do it as well until I bolted on the 15G's last weekend.  If I try to go above 15 psi now I hit fuel cut, so now I'm forced into the larger injectors.  Still trying to get my ARC-2 working.
>
> -Matt
> '95 3000GT Spyder VR4
>
> ***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***
>


***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 16:58:12 -0500
From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Water injection mounting..

Exactly.

That 18psi is a peak, and occurs at about 4800 RPM.  After that the boost
starts dropping off.  The stock 9B weenie turbo's can't push more than about
13psi past 6000rpm and falls to as low as 12psi at the red line.  Basically
I make the little guys blow as hard as they can for as long as they can.  I
didn't need additional fuel, because A/F is not the problem with the boost
curve that I produce.  4500RPM, WOT,
18psi-way-out-of-efficiency-teeny-weenie-turbo-syndrome produces a different
problem...Detonation.  That's what the water is there for.  :-)  Works well,
so far, so good.  Been doing it for almost a year now. 

John Basol
'95 RT/TT - TOOMUCHPRESSURE   :-)



-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Jannusch [SMTP:MAJ@BigCharts.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 4:49 PM
To: team3s@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: RE: Team3S: Water injection mounting..

> Your page lists 18psi, but you dont list any fuel related MODs.
> An omission, or are you running 18psi on stock?  Ya cant
> be..*grin*

Sure you can...  On stock turbos the boost goes down quickly enough
where the stock injectors can mostly keep up.  If you were to upgrade turbos
then there's no way you can do it as the airflow is much too high with the
higher boost/rpm combination.  I was able to do it as well until I bolted on
the 15G's last weekend.  If I try to go above 15 psi now I hit fuel cut, so
now I'm forced into the larger injectors.  Still trying to get my ARC-2
working.

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 15:09:42 -0700
From: "Chris Maxwell" <shmacker@home.com>
Subject: Team3S: Need a way to determine rod bearing failure...

I have the heads off and I'm replacing the rear head because I think it's a
goner.  I just want to make sure that the problem of the tapping, knocking,
whatever noises from the engine is not from the rod bearing.  I don't think
it is since I have fairly good compression (150k mile motor) and I found
lots of hard carbon desposits in the rear cylinder bank, but I just want to
be completely sure before I put everything back together.  I have the heads
off, but I don't want to take the oil pan off because I supposedly need to
remove the transfer case assembly.  Is that hard to do?  I notice that the
manual says there are only two bolts that need to be taken off.  Seems a
little too easy, there has to be more to it right?

Is there a way to check for a bad rod bearing without taking the oil pan
off?  Like is it noticeable from the top of the piston if the rod bearing is
bad?  Extra play when I turn the crank?  Am I just a wishful thinker?  heh.

Thanks again guys,
Chris Maxwell
92 R/T TT (ordered some GT-PRO 355 turbos to replace my stockers...good
choice?)


***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:10:33 -0500
From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Need a way to determine rod bearing failure...

Chris,
The compression will tell you little about the condition of the rod
or main bearings.  I would suspect that until a rod bearing disintegrates
the connecting rod or portions of the block you would likely not see any
drop in compression.  The transfer case is held on by 5 bolts on the 94+
models.  I cannot speak to the pre-'94 models, but I would guess the same is
true with those as well.  It really is not that much of a hassle to get it
off.  If you hearing a knocking from the lower part of the engine I would
suggest pulling the oil pan and investigating.  Better to waste a few hours
and give yourself a sound nights sleep after it's all back together, then
push even one more revolution with a bad rod bearing.  Connecting rods
through the side of engine blocks do not make for good performance.  :-)
Trust me I know from my "stupid kid" years.  :-)

John Basol
'95 RT/TT



***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 15:24:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water injection mounting (ARC2)

The ARC2 is super-easy to install. The trick is getting the
knobs in the right position, and Brian and Roger can help with
that. I have pics at

http://www.3si.org/member-home/jlucius/2-arc2.htm

Jeff Lucius

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Geoff Mohler" <gemohler@www.speedtoys.com>
To: "Matt Jannusch" <MAJ@BigCharts.com>
Cc: <team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 3:58 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Water injection mounting..

What problems you having with arc2?

Im about to get one myself..but will probly drive down to LA and
have them install it to cover all bases.


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***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 15:27:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Idling Trouble

The manuals have clear instructions for testing all idle-related
components.

Jeff Lucius

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
To: <team3s@stealth-3000gt.st>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 2:17 PM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Idling Trouble


Perhaps the Idle Speed Controller is getting a little old and
sluggish. Anyone know a way to test it's operation?

John Basol
'95 RT/TT

- -----Original Message-----
From: TrboDrvr@aol.com [SMTP:TrboDrvr@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 3:14 PM
To: team3s@stealth-3000gt.st
Subject: Team3S: Idling Trouble

I wonder if anyone can help me diagnose a weird idling problem.


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Do You Yahoo!?
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***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:58:41 -0500
From: Matt Jannusch <MAJ@BigCharts.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Water injection mounting (ARC2)

> The ARC2 is super-easy to install. The trick is getting the
> knobs in the right position, and Brian and Roger can help with
> that. I have pics at

I'm thinking mine is somehow defective.  I can't get it to dither the A/F ratio at idle.  It is full rich all the time or the motor quits (or cycles RPM up/down while the ISC tries to stabilize idle and keep the car running).  I've adjusted low/mid/high/accell all to various values with no positive results.  I've adjusted the TPS to read .450v at idle, no difference there.  I've tried the settings that a local person is using successfully on his car to no avail, etc.  I'm just hoping that they'll fix it under warranty as I've not yet been able to make it work successfully at all.  I have another set of values to try from Matt at Dynamic Racing which I'll try out this weekend, but I'm not feeling very optimistic about it at this point, and I really* need to get my 550's on the car.

- -Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

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Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 18:19:42 -0500
From: "Oskar" <swede@pclink.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water injection mounting..

not at all - I was just attempting to help out - I guess I just didn't
realize that reinventing was synonymous with purchasing

- ----- Original Message by Jeff Mohler -----



> I guess you missed the.."> Im not in the mood to reinvent our battery, and
Im
> having a tough time
> > with alternate locations to mount the res. for the water." part.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Oskar [mailto:swede@pclink.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 7:58 PM
> To: Geoff Mohler; Team3S
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Water injection mounting..
>
>
> You can get a smaller battery such as the Odyssey ($159 from
www.jegs.com).
> This is the same battery as the now discontinued Black Panther.
>



***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

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Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 01:33:52 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Calculated boost behaviour with 13g

Ken et all,

> This graph you calculated from injector frequency is very interesting but
IMHO
> doesn't seem representative of true boost.

No, it isn't calculated from the injector frequency at all. It's the signal
given from the ARC upon the value it read from the MAF.

>  It shows you don't reach 14.5 psi until almost 4100 RPM and also the
curve has a noticable hump.

I thought I explained why this is and in a next run I will record the data
on a flat road. Please understand that I can't do this in 4rd gear as I'd
exceed our speed limit on our highways a lot ;-)

> For a contrast, my '91 with stock 9B's controlled with an SAVC-R and stock
> exhaust & cats will reach 14.2 psi (visually measured by my SPI gauge and
> corroberated with the SAVC-R gauge last night) between 3200-3400 RPM
> depending upon the gear (2nd-4th), the incline of the road, and how quick
I
> shift my gaze from the SPI boost gauge to the RPM gauge.

Do not shift ! My recorded data is like a run on the dyno. Choose a flat
road and start at 1800 rpm WOT in 3rd gear up to 6000-7000 (210km/h at 7k)
You will see that boost climbs up and will indeed reach max boost around
3200 or even a little earlier, depending on the controller and how the low
end is handeled. In this situation, the discharge temperature and the
efficiency of the turbo are on the bad islands pretty soon and the IC have
to work overtime.

> The SAVC-R graph modes also always show a very
> flat line from 3400-5100 RPM or so

Yes, this is the same with a simulated 1/4 mile run, although I'm above 4800
in these cases but due to the light overboost after shifting, the whole
bosot is a little higher. Watch the resolution of the AVC-R2 and what's the
difference of two dots on the display are. I think its pretty accurate for
what I have seen.

> How accurate do you feel your graph is?

I took two reference points, at 4k and 5k. Both are corresponding to the
calculation and therefore the possible error is around 2-4% due to the
adjustability of the ARC. But look at the graph again, the resolution is
high on the axis and you'll note that I still have 13.4psi (0.94 kg/cm2) at
6000 rpm what I think is not bad. And at 5100 boost is still 14.4psi (1.01
kg/cm2) compared to the 14.8psi (1.04 kg/cm2) max boost. What is the
measured boost at those rpm with the AVC-R2 ?

Just record the same data on the AVC-R and I'm pretty positive you'll find
somewhat same data. The diffenrence between 4000 and 5100 is only 2.7% and
is what I've seen on the two peak-holds of the Blitz stuff (pressing reset
at the right moment. Of course my finger trigger is not that accurate and
fast enough and therefore 2-4% offset is possible) and I like to be on the
lower/safe side than on the too optimistic side.

> While it is accurate as far as your ECU & injectors are
> concerned, I'd guess it is a little pessimistic of what your true boost
really
> is.

Of course me too but driving the car around lately and watching the boost
gauges more than usually are proving the results. Of course I will only
believe in data that is really measured from a boost sensor and I hope to be
able to get the measuring device up and running next week. Then I "simply"
have to put both data together and then adjust the conversion factors for
the formula. As said, the data is NOT by the injectors (I do also have a
combined boost, IDC% chart) but it is from the air flow signal read by the
ECU. This signal determines how much fuel must be given. Of ocurse, if I
change the ARC setting to richer, I'm simulating more air flow. But the
trick is that the ARC is NOT rpm related like an AFC or GCC as it is load
related. If I'd change the mixture by +2% I'd see 2% higher air flow
reading. But the 2% are still the same if the car is still under full load.
And I will then also see 2% more boost and with the reference point I will
then have to reduce the factor by 2% to get the same boost at the points as
measured. This compensates the change on the ARC and again shows the same
curve. BTW, the air flow did only show an increase up to 6000 rpm. After
that it stayed constant, i.e. the consumption increase of the engine and the
loss of the turbo where the same. I can't wait to see a curve with larger
turbos as then the flow should still grow.

Yes, I also gave me the same question after the curve has been drawn the
first time. It wasn't just flat enough and I couldn't do anything against
the problem when boost falls below 0 (vacuum). But the interesting area is
under WOT and full load (i.e. 3rd or 4th gear). But I took several runs I
made and always got the same results. Of course, the less resolution I took,
the flatter the curve got.

As said, I'll do "real" measures, although the data used to calculate boost
IS real, and I will compare the results. I just hope that I'll be able to
record rpm too soon :)

Roger
93'3000GT TT

PS: Damn, it's hard to explain this stuff not in my language so please bear
with me when I use the wrong words or longer senstences to draw a picture.


***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

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Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 01:52:23 +0200
From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: ARC2 problem

Matt, as I understand, you are having the stock 360 injectors and "only"
idle problems, right ?

> I'm thinking mine is somehow defective.  I can't get it to dither the A/F
ratio at idle.  It is full rich all the time or the motor quits (or cycles
RPM up/down while the ISC tries to stabilize idle and keep the car running).

Yes, typically super-rich condition.

>  I've adjusted low/mid/high/accell all to various values with no positive
results.  I've adjusted the TPS to read .450v at idle, no difference there.

The TPS sounds good but you definitely changed way too much.

The simpliest method is to set L,M,H to 0 (middle) and A to 0 (to the left).
I doubt the car starts so turn back mid until you can get it running (maybe
with the help of the gas pedal). If it idles crappy, try to adjust M until
each change will cause a worser idle.

If M is set, go to low and try to enrich it until idle is fine. It will be
higher and when you hit the gas it will die but this is to determine if
everything works well.

If L is set, turn up A one click and it will go super rich again. But now
simply turn back L (slowly, give teh ECU time to learn) until it starts
sweeping.

With this, the car is drievable and H must only be set for the high boost
behaviour.

Fine tuning is then with slowly inceasing rpm from idle to 3000. Maybe here
you have to adjust M one click more or less and to compensate with L. Goal
is to achieve a smooth behaviour from idle up to 3k. It's possible that idle
is now off but this is what A is for this purpose.

BTW, what ECU pin did you connect the Yellow wire ??

Hope this helps a little (well, I guess the guys who sold you the stuff have
already explained this to you, did they ??)

Roger
93'3000GT TT


***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

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Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 19:29:44 -0400
From: Mark <pagan@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water injection mounting..

At 02:41 PM 5/11/00 -0700, Geoff Mohler wrote:
>*laugh*
>
>So just how did you do that?
>
>
<snip>

Well, interestingly enough I got a 2" pipe plug.  It is really just 2
pieces of metal with a rubbery gasket in the middle and a stud with a wing
nut on top.  Rather simple idea, tighten the nut the pieces of metal close
together squashing the gasket (washer thing).  This causes it to get bigger
and seal up tight.  Air tight.  In fact, when testing the top my friend and
I put a air hose in the line coming out of the pump to see if the rest of
the washer bottle was air tight.  We regulated the line at 20 psi (since I
don't really think I would put more than that in it) and viola, it held.
The interesting thing is that we grabbed the wrong air line in the garage
and got one that was unregulated.  We put about 165 psi of pressure in that
tank.  It swelled like a balloon, but quickly shrunk back down.  The good
news is, no air leak :).

BTW, the 2" pipe plug gasket is too big.  We shrank mine down with a belt
sander.  Very messy.

Tank works great!

Mark
'93 R/T TT

***Info:  www.stealth-3000gt.st/Team3S-Rules.htm***

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End of team3s V1 #133
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