--

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov  1 11:45:43 1998
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Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 20:45:11 +0100
From: Mike Chapleski <mike.chapleski@ibm.net>
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    OK, I have a weird problem with my brakes.  I first noticed this
problem when I initially bought the car back in May.  After accelerating
from 0-100 MPH, I hit the brakes hard.  I get an almost immediate wobble
in the brakes that just gets worse the more I stay on them.  Now here is
the weird part.  If  I accelerate normally up to 100 and slam on the
brakes just as hard, I do not get any wobble.  My first reaction was it
was some kind of drive train problem.  Since it only appeared after a
hard acceleration run.  Well I had the transmission replaced in July and
have not been doing much heavy accelerating since then.  Until last
night.

    Three times I got on it hard, but did not use the brakes to slow
down, just coasted.  Then a forth time I floored it up to 130 MPH then
hit the brakes.  I immediately felt the wobble and it got a lot worse,
to the point I was afraid something was going to fall off.  Well I
cruised at 80 for about a minute then slowly back up to 120 MPH.  I once
again hit the brakes and they smoothly stopped the car.  NO wobble.  I
do not have any wobble when I drive the car under normal conditions.
Only right after I accelerate very hard.  Any ideas?

    BTW, all lug nuts are torqued to 100 ft-lbs. 21k miles, original
Yoko tires, crappy stock chrome rims.

Mike C.
0018
'95 Stealth RT TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov  1 11:45:54 1998
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Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 20:45:33 +0100
From: Mike Chapleski <mike.chapleski@ibm.net>
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OK, I think the list is down but I'm not allowed to send a test message
so here is a real question.  Someday, I will be able to answer a
question.  Someday....

    I have been thinking about this boost at higher RPM issue and was
wondering.  If Jim Mathews can hold 15 psi of boost at 7000 RPM but I
can only hold 12.5 psi.  Who has more power.  I think the natural answer
would be Jim's car, because it is creating more boost.  However, the
reason I only have 12.5 psi (I think) is because I also have a Borla
exhaust and a test pipe.  Jim is all stock exhaust so he has more back
pressure.  So what do you think?  I would think that with my freer
flowing exhaust I can get up to the higher RPM's faster but is that
really helping me if my car starts to "loose" power after 5500 RPM?

Thanks,

Mike
0018
'95 Stealth RT TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov  1 12:13:02 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brake Wobble
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 13:14:31 -0700
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I really doubt hard acceleration has anything to do with it.

I had a similar circumstance on my 1994 VR4.  Sometimes, and only at speeds
above 80 mph or so, I would get horrible shake and shudder when the brakes
were applied.  Sometimes it would do it, other times it wouldn't.  Just as
soon as I thought I found a pattern, something would change to screw up the
pattern.

Brake rotors will expand and contract.  In other words, they will warp out
of spec and can warp back into spec.

In your case I'd be willing to bet that new rotors (not reground) will
resolve the problem.  Regrinding the rotors will not cure warping and will
only bring otherwise well-cured rotors back into spec.  Sounds to me like
your rotors are warping in and out of spec, in which case bringing them back
into spec will not resolve the real issue.

The reason this happens is due to the manufacture process of most mass
produced rotors.  After casting the still very hot rotor is simply tossed
onto a pile of rotors which are in varying stages of cooling.  By luck of
the draw the rotor may cool and set properly or with a built in warp.  The
rotor is then ground into spec and shipped.  The rotor that cooled with
internal warping will continue to be problematic thoughout its lifetme.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Mike Chapleski
> Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 12:45 PM
> To: Team3S
> Subject: Team3S: Brake Wobble
>
>
>     OK, I have a weird problem with my brakes.  I first noticed this
> problem when I initially bought the car back in May.  After accelerating
> from 0-100 MPH, I hit the brakes hard.  I get an almost immediate wobble
> in the brakes that just gets worse the more I stay on them.  Now here is
> the weird part.  If  I accelerate normally up to 100 and slam on the
> brakes just as hard, I do not get any wobble.  My first reaction was it
> was some kind of drive train problem.  Since it only appeared after a
> hard acceleration run.  Well I had the transmission replaced in July and
> have not been doing much heavy accelerating since then.  Until last
> night.
>
>     Three times I got on it hard, but did not use the brakes to slow
> down, just coasted.  Then a forth time I floored it up to 130 MPH then
> hit the brakes.  I immediately felt the wobble and it got a lot worse,
> to the point I was afraid something was going to fall off.  Well I
> cruised at 80 for about a minute then slowly back up to 120 MPH.  I once
> again hit the brakes and they smoothly stopped the car.  NO wobble.  I
> do not have any wobble when I drive the car under normal conditions.
> Only right after I accelerate very hard.  Any ideas?
>
>     BTW, all lug nuts are torqued to 100 ft-lbs. 21k miles, original
> Yoko tires, crappy stock chrome rims.
>
> Mike C.
> 0018
> '95 Stealth RT TT
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov  1 13:40:43 1998
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Brake Wobble
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-----Original Message-----From: Mike Chapleski

|    OK, I have a weird problem with my brakes.  I first noticed this
|problem when I initially bought the car back in May.  After accelerating
|from 0-100 MPH, I hit the brakes hard.  I get an almost immediate wobble

-------snip-------

My first guess was warpage, but if that were the problem, you'd have it even
when you didn't accelerate hard.  I wonder if it's not with the ABS,
"fighting", as it were, with an engine that's still 'pushing' a bit since
it's right after you got off hard throttle.  Think of it as dueling
computers, with the power to the wheels circuit giving delayed feedback to
the ABS circuit, and/or vice versa.  That's my scenario, and I'm stickin' to
it...!

Question:  Can the ABS be turned off somehow?  Then if you still had the
problem without it, you'd know my scenario was wrong...  And at least
eliminate that as a possibility.

Forrest


BTW, the list wasn't down (although my ISP posted an internet "burp" early
this AM);  it looks like folks are only posting when they actually have
something to say...  What a concept!  :-)  With an intelligent list like
this, I wouldn't plan on seeing too many posts just to keep a 'noise level'
going...  (It also proves that everyone on "Team3S" actually has a life!)

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov  1 14:12:34 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Free Flowing Exhausts
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> If Jim Mathews can hold 15 psi of boost at 7000 RPM but I
> can only hold 12.5 psi.

As far as I remember, Jim spoke of a boost falling down to 13.1 psi (0.9 bars)
at 6500 (and maybe lower around 7000 too)

> Who has more power.

Both about the same :)

> However, the reason I only have 12.5 psi (I think) is because I also have
> a Borla exhaust and a test pipe.

My dyno tests showed that I lost top end power but gained some tourque with the
ATR dp/cat and Borla. Initially I found a loss as I switched the BC off compared
with the setting two years ago. This lead me to the conclusion that a big dp,
high flow cat and cat-back doesn't help alot for the stock setup. It is an
investment for the future. Also if you want to have a real gain, then I'm pretty
sure the pre-cats are the main restriction. Remember anyone (I think Bob or
Brian) described the way a turbine can spool up (or kept spooling). A difference
in pre- and after-pressure is needed. If the exhaust after the turbine is
massively restricted and a situation can occur where the pressure before and
after the turbine become equal then the wheel would stop turning. Therefore a
very good flowing exhaust piping are our aim to keep the turbine spooling and
therefore the compressor wheel. As the pre-cats are the very first restrictions
I think only removing them will help the other exhaust parts to become a
restriction. Only then their elimination makes sense.

> I would think that with my freer flowing exhaust I can get up to the higher
> RPM's faster but is that really helping me if my car starts to "loose" power
> after 5500 RPM?

We don't know if the exhaust parts are becoming an unwanted restriction due to
the fact they create some resonances in the piping at different rpms. This is
also called "backwaving" (what we call this in Europe :) The aftermarket exhaust
parts we are using are not designed together (ok, the ATR full exhaust is
designed to work together) Therefore the pipes design (without resonator case)
can create this backwaves and hurt the performance.

I replaced the ATR dp/cat with the stock setup due to a broken cat and have not
felt any power loss then. The dyno outcome then did not showed any good numbers
due to the bad engine. I plan to do the first dyno session with the new setup
with the stock dp/cat and the Borla cat-back. I hope to find any precat
replacement until then :)

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov  1 16:00:18 1998
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Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 19:00:12 -0500 (EST)
From: JEEPers <fxc9364@megahertz.njit.edu>
To: Team 3S <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Mobil Synthetic Oil Questions ( Color after 3K miles)
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Hi guys,
I like this new list to start off but I have a few really
interesting questions.  Now as all you know the oils get pretty dark in
the engine of the TT models.  I was wondering how it is that the oil would
breakdown to the point that the oil color is literally grey or silver??
Close to the color of ball-bearing grease....???  Anyhow, this is the
scenario in my brother's car and I can 't seem to understand it ... I
understand that oil will break down but to the point of being grey????  I
mean I understand that Mobil 1 commmercial are not exactly scientific but
should syn. oils at least hold their own ???  If the oils actually break
down, wouldn't it not harm the engine??  I am asking all these questions
b/c compared to my V-8 on regular oil, the comparison of oil color is so
different.  I average a dark brown on the 3k interval and drive my Jeep
pretty hard and I can't really understand it...Anyone care to give me a
more indepth insight??? 


      Frank
                    -JEEPers-
"Kung-Fu Forrest"

MY WEB PAGE IS UP AT http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Canyon/6045/

"Jeep is America's only real sports car"     Mr. Enzo Ferrari

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov  1 16:13:25 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Mobil Synthetic Oil Questions ( Color after 3K miles)
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 17:15:02 -0700
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Reply-To: stealth-3000gt

It is NOT normal for oil, synthetic or fossil, to turn grey or silver.
Sounds like some contaminant is getting into the oil.  Synthetic oils break
down LESS than fossil-based lubricants which is one of the reasons to use
them in the first place.

He isn't using some funky additive or oil filter that dispenses and additive
is he?

I have seen oil turn grey from water contamination, but usually it gets
murky brown.  If it truly takes on a silvery color (sometimes with
"speckles" or silvery flecks) then there may well be some internal component
that is wearing unusually fast.  If this is the case and the wearing part(s)
is magnetic, running a magnet through the oil should leave particles on the
magnet.  You may wish to dissect an oil filter at the next change and see
what is inside.  Sometimes this can tell you a lot.

It is also possible to send an oil sample away for analysis.  I have seen
advertisements in the past for this service charging anywhere from nothing
(promotional deals) to some nominal amount.  Might be worth it if you are
truly concerned, which personally I would be.  That sort of discoloration is
simply not the norm.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of JEEPers
> Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 5:00 PM
> To: Team 3S
> Subject: Team3S: Mobil Synthetic Oil Questions ( Color after 3K miles)
>
>
> Hi guys,
> I like this new list to start off but I have a few really
> interesting questions.  Now as all you know the oils get pretty dark in
> the engine of the TT models.  I was wondering how it is that the oil would
> breakdown to the point that the oil color is literally grey or silver??
> Close to the color of ball-bearing grease....???  Anyhow, this is the
> scenario in my brother's car and I can 't seem to understand it ... I
> understand that oil will break down but to the point of being grey????  I
> mean I understand that Mobil 1 commmercial are not exactly scientific but
> should syn. oils at least hold their own ???  If the oils actually break
> down, wouldn't it not harm the engine??  I am asking all these questions
> b/c compared to my V-8 on regular oil, the comparison of oil color is so
> different.  I average a dark brown on the 3k interval and drive my Jeep
> pretty hard and I can't really understand it...Anyone care to give me a
> more indepth insight???
>
>
>       Frank

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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> -----Original Message-----From: Mike Chapleski
>
> |    OK, I have a weird problem with my brakes....



> -------snip-------

Bob Forrest responded.....

> My first guess was warpage, (Barry King also indicated the same in a separate post)
> but if that were the problem, you'd have it even when you didn't accelerate hard.  I
> wonder if it's not with the ABS, "fighting", as it were, with an engine that's still
> 'pushing' a bit since it's right after you got off hard throttle.  Think of it as
> dueling computers, with the power to the wheels circuit giving delayed feedback to the
> ABS circuit, and/or vice versa.  That's my scenario, and I'm stickin' to it.!
> Question:  Can the ABS be turned off somehow?

Good question Bob...and an equally good theory...does anyone know if the ABS can be
turned off to test this?? There does seem to some problem with "chattering brakes" on
these suckers at high speeds, and if it's a dualing computer scenerio, then all we need
is a computer wiz signed up here to figure it out...or at least send the results to
Mitsu (forget Chrysler) for them to figure out. Anyone????  If it isn't , and is a plain
ole warpage problem, then what is the consensus on the best after market replacement??

Darc

--------------D4D452CE8424618203473E3B
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
&nbsp;
<BR>&nbsp;
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>-----Original Message-----From: Mike Chapleski

<P>|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; OK, I have a weird problem with my brakes....</BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>-------snip-------</BLOCKQUOTE>
Bob Forrest responded.....
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>My first guess was warpage, <B>(Barry King also indicated
the same in a separate post) </B>but if that were the problem, you'd have
it even when you didn't accelerate hard.&nbsp; I wonder if it's not with
the ABS, "fighting", as it were, with an engine that's still 'pushing'
a bit since it's right after you got off hard throttle.&nbsp; Think of
it as dueling computers, with the power to the wheels circuit giving delayed
feedback to the ABS circuit, and/or vice versa.&nbsp; That's my scenario,
and I'm stickin' to it.! Question:&nbsp; Can the ABS be turned off somehow?</BLOCKQUOTE>
Good question Bob...and an equally good theory...does anyone know if the
ABS can be turned off to test this?? There does seem to some problem with
"chattering brakes" on these suckers at high speeds, and if it's a dualing
computer scenerio, then all we need is a computer wiz signed up here to
figure it out...or at least send the results to Mitsu (forget Chrysler)
for them to figure out. Anyone????&nbsp; If it isn't , and is a plain ole
warpage problem, then what is the consensus on the best after market replacement??

<P>Darc</HTML>

--------------D4D452CE8424618203473E3B--

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov  1 19:21:19 1998
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In a message dated 11/1/98 2:46:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
mike.chapleski@ibm.net writes:

<< have been thinking about this boost at higher RPM issue and was
wondering.  If Jim Mathews can hold 15 psi of boost at 7000 RPM but I
can only hold 12.5 psi.  Who has more power.>>

More or less, a motor is a big air-pump.  The quicker and faster you can get
air through the pump, the more power you have.  So restrictions in the pump
will lead to less power and, in our case with turbos, usually higher boost
levels.

Boost is a measurement of backpressure.  And the more backpressure
(restriction) something has the less it will flow.  When the air-pump is feed
X amount of air it creates a certain amount of backpressure at any given rpm
(everything else remain constant). 

For this example I'll say a turbo is feeding the air, and it is so small that
as the air pump spins faster, the turbo cannot keep a steady rate of
backpressure through the air-pump. 

At 3000rpm, the air-pump will consume X amount of air.  If you double that rpm
(6000rpm) the air pump will consume twice as much air.  Previously I stated
that the turbo which is feeding the air-pump (motor) in this example is very
small.  So at 3000rpm it can supply the motor with enough air to create enough
backpressure to be the equivalent of 20psi of boost.  So to create 20psi of
boost at 6000rpm, the air-pump would need to flow twice as much air.  But the
turbo is maxed out at 3000rpm, so it can only create half the backpressure
that it does at 3000rpm at 6000rpm --- equalling 10psi at 6000rpm.

Is the air-pump making less power at 6000rpm vs. 3000rpm?  No.  Because hp is
a function of the ability of the air-pump to process air, and at 6000rpm the
motor is still consuming the same amount of air from the turbo..  So the power
would be close to equal.

Therefore, if an air-pump is able to create a backpressure of 15psi at
6000rpm, but a restriction is taken out of the air-pump (everything else
remains constant) so it only creates a backpressure measurement of 12.5psi is
the air-pump making less power?  No!

And that's why boost is a BAD measurement of a cars power.  The amount of
power your motor makes has to do with many other variables...
And that's why I was able to run numerous 12.1's with the stock turbos only
producing 10.5psi at 7000rpm.

Probalby confusing to read, but some good ideas I hope... I'm sure someone
else can put it in better words :).

Mike Mahaffey - '94 Stealth tt Best et: 11.6  Best mph: 120.7


<<  I think the natural answer would be Jim's car, because it is creating more
boost.  However, the
reason I only have 12.5 psi (I think) is because I also have a Borla
exhaust and a test pipe.  Jim is all stock exhaust so he has more back
pressure.  So what do you think?  I would think that with my freer
flowing exhaust I can get up to the higher RPM's faster but is that
really helping me if my car starts to "loose" power after 5500 RPM? >>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov  1 20:20:49 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Brake Wobble
Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:22:26 -0700
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The ABS can be disabled by removing the ABS fuse(s) in the engine
compartment fuse box.

I have a hard time with the duelling computers theory.  ABS operates
primarily by feedback from wheel sensors.  The VR4 has a dual channel where
the front left and rear right are on one channel, the other channel controls
the other two corners.  A bad wheel sensor which was tripping the ABS could
cause pulsating, but violent shaking and wobbling just doesn't jive with
that scenario.

As to replacement rotors, the KVR rotors currently on my '94 have performed
flawlessly for the 15K miles I've had them on the car, and I like to use the
brakes.  I also opted for the KVR carbon metallic pads.  The combination
works very well especially once warmed up a bit.

There are a number of other options.  I have heard several complaints now
about PowerSlot rotors.  I have heard only one complaint about KVRs.

If you want really good brakes, especially if you have a 91-93 VR4, talk to
Brad Bidell.


Barry

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of
wce@bc.sympatico.ca
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 8:12 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brake Wobble

Question:  Can the ABS be turned off somehow?

Good question Bob...and an equally good theory...does anyone know if the ABS
can be turned off to test this?? There does seem to some problem with
"chattering brakes" on these suckers at high speeds, and if it's a dualing
computer scenerio, then all we need is a computer wiz signed up here to
figure it out...or at least send the results to Mitsu (forget Chrysler) for
them to figure out. Anyone????  If it isn't , and is a plain ole warpage
problem, then what is the consensus on the best after market replacement??
Darc

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov  1 21:35:15 1998
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From: "Ron-a-roid" <rtetetet@email.msn.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Brake Wobble
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 00:38:46 -0500
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>Question:  Can the ABS be turned off somehow?  Then if you still had the
>problem without it, you'd know my scenario was wrong...  And at least
>eliminate that as a possibility.


You could always pull the ABS fuse to test the theory...

BTW; anybody disconnected the passenger airbag? Got a 5 year old boy who
don't fair well in the back seat and I'm gonna have to do this, maybe a
switch or something.

Ron



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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov  1 21:46:45 1998
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From: "Ron-a-roid" <rtetetet@email.msn.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Mobil Synthetic Oil Questions ( Color after 3K miles)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 00:50:16 -0500
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>He isn't using some funky additive or oil filter that dispenses and
additive
>is he?


THIS SOUNDS LIKE GRAPHITE. (sorry for caps) There were and are a bunch of
additives that contain graphite the was supposed to add to friction
reduction. The problem I saw was that it would build up and clog things or
clog the filter. It takes a LONG time to work graphite out. My dad used to
get this stuff called Krex that had graphite in it and it still turned the
oil silvery Grey for a year and a half after he stopped using it.

Ron



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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov  2 01:08:59 1998
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Subject: Team3S: Tuning with AWD Dyno
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Please forgive the basic nature of this post, but I would greatly
appreciate any thoughts.
At the moment my VR4 is running quite smoothly however sometimes its a
little difficult to start when warm, ie it takes a few cranks & its
producing that rotten egg gas smell on occasions. A friend of mine was
following me tonight & when I planted my foot he said he saw a stream of
" dirty looking smoke " ( not black ) coming out of the exhaust.
The car has done about 80K km & is stock except for a replacement K&N
element for the stock air box & also some cold air induction running to
the box.
In a couple of weeks I'm getting the boost increased at a performance
car shop at which time the car will be set up on a AWD dyno.
My question is this. I know that the rotten egg gas smell is a result of
the car being out of tune in some way, but is the smoke from the exhaust
caused by a similar problem? Also can the car be "retuned" on the dyno &
is there much that can be altered on the car as a result of using the
dyno that would not already be fixed by the cars on board computer? I
have been under the impression that these sort of high tec cars
virtually tune themselves.
BTW when the the air filter & induction was done the ECU was reset.
Thanks
Andrew
Australia
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov  2 02:08:46 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Tuning with AWD Dyno
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 03:10:09 -0700
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Quite often the rotten egg smell accompanies a failing or failed catalytic
converter.  Might be worth investigating.  If the cat has failed look for
other problems too.  Cats can last a very long time in a healthy car and
typically fail due lazy or failed O2 sensors, an extremely rich mixture or
oil in the exhaust.  In the case of our cars, a very rich mixture would
indicate yet another problem since the fuel maps are fixed from the factory.

A puff or two of dirty smoke isn't unusual from these and many turbocharged
cars due to the generous enrichment that occurs during acceleration.
Continuous dirty smoke may be indicative of a failed cat amongst other
things.  What color are your tailpipes?  Is there a high amount of soot?
Your tuner should be able to tell you a lot is the car is not healthy.

Retuning fuel delivery is not easy without adding some sort of fuel computer
or modifying the ECU.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of andrew clark
> Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 2:10 AM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Team3S: Tuning with AWD Dyno
>
>
> Please forgive the basic nature of this post, but I would greatly
> appreciate any thoughts.
> At the moment my VR4 is running quite smoothly however sometimes its a
> little difficult to start when warm, ie it takes a few cranks & its
> producing that rotten egg gas smell on occasions. A friend of mine was
> following me tonight & when I planted my foot he said he saw a stream of
> " dirty looking smoke " ( not black ) coming out of the exhaust.
> The car has done about 80K km & is stock except for a replacement K&N
> element for the stock air box & also some cold air induction running to
> the box.
> In a couple of weeks I'm getting the boost increased at a performance
> car shop at which time the car will be set up on a AWD dyno.
> My question is this. I know that the rotten egg gas smell is a result of
> the car being out of tune in some way, but is the smoke from the exhaust
> caused by a similar problem? Also can the car be "retuned" on the dyno &
> is there much that can be altered on the car as a result of using the
> dyno that would not already be fixed by the cars on board computer? I
> have been under the impression that these sort of high tec cars
> virtually tune themselves.
> BTW when the the air filter & induction was done the ECU was reset.
> Thanks
> Andrew
> Australia

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov  2 06:31:42 1998
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Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:31:37 -0500 (EST)
From: JEEPers <fxc9364@megahertz.njit.edu>
To: Team 3S <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Oil mystery update (Was RE: Mobil 1 syn)
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Thanx for the answers. I just remembered that he used to put in Slick 50
when the product just came out. He has been a Mobil 1 diet since the last
several oil changes and Vavloine Syn prior to that.  I guess the oil might
be cleaning out some of that Slick 50 stuff that was leftover.  I guess, I
will have to cut the filter the next time a oil change is due.


      Frank
                    -JEEPers-
"Kung-Fu Forrest"

MY WEB PAGE IS UP AT http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Canyon/6045/

"Jeep is America's only real sports car"     Mr. Enzo Ferrari

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From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: Silver/grey oil
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-----Original Message-----
From: JEEPers [SMTP:fxc9364@megahertz.njit.edu]
Sent: Sunday, November 01, 1998 4:00 PM
To: Team 3S
Subject: Team3S: Mobil Synthetic Oil Questions ( Color after 3K miles)
<snip>
I was wondering how it is that the oil would breakdown to the point that the oil color is literally grey or
silver??
<more snip>
...Anyone care to give me a more indepth insight???
<end of snip>

Whoa...

Sounds like a danger sign to me. The only time I've seen oil turn anything other than brown to black is when
there's water in the oil. Then it turns silver/gray. There's often some sign of foam at the dipstick as well.
Bad news. Time to check the head gasket.

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov  2 10:47:17 1998
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Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 10:47:13 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <middaugh@omega.gat.com>
Organization: General Atomics - Fusion Division
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Tuning with AWD Dyno
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>
> At the moment my VR4 is running quite smoothly however sometimes its a
> little difficult to start when warm, ie it takes a few cranks & its
> producing that rotten egg gas smell on occasions.

snip

>
> In a couple of weeks I'm getting the boost increased at a performance
> car shop at which time the car will be set up on a AWD dyno.

snip

One thing you may want to check is the condition of the spark plugs.  This might help
with the 'hard to start' problem, and you'll want to decrease the gap anyway if you
will be increasing boost in the future.  Pull the front 3 plugs for inspection and
check their gap.  Consider replacing them with NGK double platinums gapped around 0.032
- 0.035 inch if you don't plan to exceed 16psi.  Some folks go at low as 0.028 for
18+psi.  Also, if you're going to pull the plenum to replace the plugs, consider
replacing the plug wires if they have 60K+ miles on them.


--

Ken Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510



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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov  2 11:05:43 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Tuning with AWD Dyno
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That's good advice. You should prepared to change the plenum & throttle body
gaskets too.
Arty 91 VR-4

In a message dated 11/2/98 10:48:15 AM Pacific Standard Time,
middaugh@omega.gat.com writes:

<< ubj: Re: Team3S: Tuning with AWD Dyno
Date: 11/2/98 10:48:15 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: middaugh@omega.gat.com (Ken Middaugh)
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Reply-to: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com

>
> At the moment my VR4 is running quite smoothly however sometimes its a
> little difficult to start when warm, ie it takes a few cranks & its
> producing that rotten egg gas smell on occasions.

snip

>
> In a couple of weeks I'm getting the boost increased at a performance
> car shop at which time the car will be set up on a AWD dyno.

snip

One thing you may want to check is the condition of the spark plugs.  This
might help
with the 'hard to start' problem, and you'll want to decrease the gap anyway
if you
will be increasing boost in the future.  Pull the front 3 plugs for
inspection and
check their gap.  Consider replacing them with NGK double platinums gapped
around 0.032
- 0.035 inch if you don't plan to exceed 16psi.  Some folks go at low as
0.028 for
18+psi.  Also, if you're going to pull the plenum to replace the plugs,
consider
replacing the plug wires if they have 60K+ miles on them.


--

Ken Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510
  >>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov  2 12:19:02 1998
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Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 21:23:46 +0100
From: Jim Matthews <matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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Mike Chapleski wrote:
>
>     I have been thinking about this boost at higher RPM issue and was
> wondering.  If Jim Mathews can hold 15 psi of boost at 7000 RPM but I
> can only hold 12.5 psi.

Nope, I'm down to 12.5 at 7k, maybe a little less.  The only
folks on the list that are able to maintain higher boost
pressures at redline are those with 13G or larger turbos.

I think your car would spool up faster and maintain slightly
higher boost than mine at redline due to the freer flowing
exhaust.

-Jim
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews

*** 3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov  2 12:33:08 1998
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In a message dated 11/2/98 3:23:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de writes:

<< I think your car would spool up faster and maintain slightly
higher boost than mine at redline due to the freer flowing
exhaust. >>

With my experience of VR4/Stealth, with a really freer flowing exhuast the
stock turbos will show less boost.

btw, anyone have anything to say about my post on the stock
turbos/motor/backrpressure mail?  did you guys get it?

Mike Mahaffey - '94 Stealth tt Best et: 11.6  Best mph: 120.7
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov  2 13:26:21 1998
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Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 22:25:38 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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> Nope, I'm down to 12.5 at 7k, maybe a little less.  The only
> folks on the list that are able to maintain higher boost
> pressures at redline are those with 13G or larger turbos.

Well, I think it's time for Mikael to pull the rubber intake from the front
turbo and have a good look into it. Maybe he's also having the 13G's :) His car
is holding boost as well !

Roger
93'3000GT TT
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov  2 16:40:24 1998
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From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'Cameron Brandon'" <cbran@dsinw.com>
Cc: "'Team3S'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: Good launches
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:40:48 -0800
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-----Original Message-----
From: Cameron Brandon [SMTP:cbran@dsinw.com]
Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 3:29 PM
To: cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com
Subject: Re: Another bites the dust!
<lots of snips>
So, on lauches with AWD, do you NEVER drop the clutch?  Gary Z said don't drop the clutch with AWD unless you
are rich... thats why im pretty conservative in my lauches..

Cam
=======================================
Cameron...

Lots of perspectives on this. The magazines that get the best times out of our cars do their launches at
6500rpm. Seems like a lot of stress on the clutch and drivetrain, so I checked with starnet for opinions when
I bought Beastie. There seems to be a couple recommended approaches:

1. Slip & dump. Basically, slip the clutch at a normal (say 2500) rpm until the car begins to move, then
floor it and dump the clutch the rest of the way. I tried this a few times, found it difficult to keep the
engine from bogging down.
2. 4500rpm dump. Run the revs up to 4500rpm and dump the clutch, then floor it. I've used this a number of
times as well. Some odor of burning clutch material. Good launches. No long term problems, but then I'm not
out drag racing every night of the week.

Let's face it, when you start with 320hp and AWD, you're putting a load on the clutch, transmission, and
drive components with any launch. When you add mods and start racing, you add more load (and risk).

I've cc'd the Team3S list on this response, you might get a variety of other opinions. This is one of the
cases where we'll see some difference between FWD and AWD, but again, everyone develops a "successful" method
(one that gets them the launch they like, with a level of risk they're willing to take). A clutch, at $700,
is not a big deal, at least not compared to the cost of a tranny ($6K+). The clutch is a normal "wear and
tear" component, and will need replacing at some point.

When I was in NJ a couple weeks ago and met Arty (1991 VR4), he described having a problem with traction. He
can get rolling, then floor it and break all four tires loose. That equates to a HP "problem" that most of us
would like to have. Arty was the first to acknowledge that something is going to break. Oh well.

ENJOY!!!

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov  2 21:46:29 1998
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From: "Oskar" <swede@pclink.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Passenger airbag diconnect (Was Brake Wobble)
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 23:46:26 -0600
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Ron-a-Roid wrote:

>BTW; anybody disconnected the passenger airbag? Got a 5 year old boy who
>don't fair well in the back seat and I'm gonna have to do this, maybe a
>switch or something.
>
>Ron


I have been thinking about the same thing.  I too have a 5 year old boy.
While the backseat works fine, it is more convenient for both of us when he
rides up front.  If anyone knows of, or have any sound theories on how to
disconnect the passenger airbag, please post.  This could be either
permanent, or switchable like on newer trucks and Jeeps.

Oskar
'95 R/T TT
5 yr old son wants me to save the car until he gets his drivers licence

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov  2 22:17:02 1998
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From: "Oskar" <swede@pclink.com>
To: "Team 3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Doublechecking - spark plugs
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 00:17:35 -0600
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_01E8_01BE06BF.5B24A140
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I've got six NGK PFR6J-11 plugs and magnecor 8.5 wires laying around.  =
Planning to install this weekend.  Just checking to make sure these are =
THE plugs.  I vaugely recall having seen "dual tips" being mentioned??

Also, I currently have an FIPK installed and plan on installing BC soon. =
Would .35 gapping be allright, or should I opt closer to factory =
recommendation?

Sorry for discussing this old subject, couldn't find any reference in my =
archives.

Thanks,
Oskar
'95 R/T TT
"The Great White"

------=_NextPart_000_01E8_01BE06BF.5B24A140
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I've got six NGK PFR6J-11 plugs and magnecor 8.5 =
wires laying=20
around.&nbsp; Planning to install this weekend.&nbsp; Just checking to =
make sure=20
these are THE plugs.&nbsp; I vaugely recall having seen &quot;dual =
tips&quot;=20
being mentioned??</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Also, I currently have an FIPK installed and plan on =

installing BC soon.&nbsp; Would .35 gapping be allright, or should I opt =
closer=20
to factory recommendation?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Sorry for discussing this old subject, couldn't find =
any=20
reference in my archives.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Oskar</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>'95 R/T TT</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>&quot;The Great =
White&quot;</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_01E8_01BE06BF.5B24A140--

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov  2 22:26:47 1998
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          Mon, 2 Nov 1998 22:26:41 -0800
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Doublechecking - spark plugs
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 23:28:12 -0700
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Thos are the right plugs.  A gap of 0.035" should be fine.  I am hoping 0.35
was a typo.

I run 0.034" with stock plug wires at 20 psi without breaking up.


Regards,

Barry

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Oskar
Sent: Monday, November 02, 1998 11:18 PM
To: Team 3S
Subject: Team3S: Doublechecking - spark plugs


I've got six NGK PFR6J-11 plugs and magnecor 8.5 wires laying around.
Planning to install this weekend.  Just checking to make sure these are THE
plugs.  I vaugely recall having seen "dual tips" being mentioned??

Also, I currently have an FIPK installed and plan on installing BC soon.
Would .35 gapping be allright, or should I opt closer to factory
recommendation?

Sorry for discussing this old subject, couldn't find any reference in my
archives.

Thanks,
Oskar
'95 R/T TT
"The Great White"

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov  3 00:09:54 1998
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From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?=" <vr4@bahnhof.se>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Free Flowing Exhausts
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-----Original-----
From: R.G. <robby@swissonline.ch>
>Well, I think it's time for Mikael to pull the rubber intake from the front
>turbo and have a good look into it. Maybe he's also having the 13G's >:) His car is holding boost as well !


Yup!! Tell me what to look for and I will do it. There is one number that i can read on the Turbos but I think that that is just the serial number and it doesn't say anything about the size (I think).

I have my car at the Mitsu importer today,  they are helping me to put in my aftermarket clutch (good guys :), and even the mechanic there say that my car holds boost better that any European (13G?) car they have tried.

So Roger please tell me where I can find those numbers.

/Mikael "strange boost" Akesson

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov  3 01:24:52 1998
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Subject: Team3S: Re: Tuning on AWD dyno
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> My car is blowing a bit of "dirty" smoke from the exhaust (a friend of
> mine told me this while he was following me) when I really plant my foot
> & sometimes when I stop I can smell that rotten egg gas smell.

IMHO, you already got the answers. This would indeed be a trial and error thing
but regapping (changing) the plugs is the most recommended one. For the rotten
egg smell, try to change to better gas or inspect the exhaust system for any
dead animal hanging around (beep-beep)

> Are both of these problems symptoms of the engine not being tuned properly?

The "puff" is somewhat normal for hi-po turbo cars. The Porsche Turbos do this
usually from day one as well as the Italian mini-turbo cars. My tips are darker
then black due to the fact that our cars are running very rich. This can only be
tuned-in with an A/F controller, but don't expect any horses for this.

> Could this be fixed on a AWD dyno (the cars due to go in next week) or is
> there very little that the dyno can tell you about the tuning of the car
> that would not already be adjusted by the ECU?

You can tune any boost-controller, A/F device, adjustable fuel pressure
regulater, etc. on the dyno but on our cars nothing can be done. Like you said,
the ECU does this for you. What you can tell the dyno-guy is to measure the
following:
- O2 sensors voltages (if they are working fine)
- fuel pressure
- oil pressure in the crankcase
- compression (can be done during replacing the plugs)
- A/F ratio at the exhaust

If anything is "not good" he should be able to tell you.

And last but not least you can pull the IC-tubes from the y-pipe and check for a
"more than normal" amount of oil sitting there. On mine thre was so much oil
that went into the intake, got burnt and caused a blueish smoke at the tips. The
y-pipe must be pulled anyways when the plugs will be changed.

Hope this helps,
-- Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov  3 05:18:58 1998
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Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:18:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Passenger airbag diconnect (Was Brake Wobble)
In-Reply-To: <018801be06ed$61c3f2c0$9f010bce@user>
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Aren't the automakers supposed to make available such a disconnect switch?
Seems to me that (in the US, at least) the DOT has a form you can fill out
which will force the dealers to install the switch.

If no one else has more definitive info, I'll take some time tonight and
dig out the details.

Dennis Moore
stealth@kiva.net

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov  3 05:42:33 1998
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From: Dennis Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Passenger airbag diconnect (Was Brake Wobble)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.981103081710.23122A-100000@sherrill.kiva.net>
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Duh, how long did it take for me to answer my own question?!?  Why'd I
waste your time asking it in the first place?!?

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/airbags/

According to the links on this page, the switches for all model years of
the Stealth were available 20 Oct, and 3000s should be available by
mid-December.

Oddly enough, one thing I didn't find was how to obtain the form you need
to fill out to get the switch installation authorized...

Hope this helps.

Dennis Moore
stealth@kiva.net

On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Dennis Moore wrote:

> Aren't the automakers supposed to make available such a disconnect switch?
> Seems to me that (in the US, at least) the DOT has a form you can fill out
> which will force the dealers to install the switch.
>
[snip]

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov  3 09:56:59 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Free Flowing Exhausts
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:55:28 -0700
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Mikael,

A week or so back I posted a detailed description of how to identify 9Bs and
13Gs.  Did you not see the post?  It was in direct response to one of your
messages.

Roger should also have the exact method.

In any case, there are part numbers cast into the housings.  The compressor
housing (silver side where air leaves to eventually enter the engine) is the
most interesting number.

49177-024x0 are part numbers for the TD04L-9B 6cm^2 where x may be 0, 1 or 2

49177-004x0 are part numbers for the TD04L-13G 6cm^2 where x may be 0, 1 or
2
       |
       +- This digit on a 13G is ground down "2" and stamped with "0"
          It will be very obvious.

Also, if you look at the compressor wheel it will be immediately obvious.
Look at Bob Fontanna's site for pictures of each of 9B, 13G and 15G (which
look identical to 13G wheels other than the diameter).


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Mikael Åkesson
> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 1:09 AM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Free Flowing Exhausts
>
>
> -----Original-----
> From: R.G. <robby@swissonline.ch>
> >Well, I think it's time for Mikael to pull the rubber intake
> from the front
> >turbo and have a good look into it. Maybe he's also having the
> 13G's >:) His car is holding boost as well !
>
>
> Yup!! Tell me what to look for and I will do it. There is one
> number that i can read on the Turbos but I think that that is
> just the serial number and it doesn't say anything about the size
> (I think).
>
> I have my car at the Mitsu importer today,  they are helping me
> to put in my aftermarket clutch (good guys :), and even the
> mechanic there say that my car holds boost better that any
> European (13G?) car they have tried.
>
> So Roger please tell me where I can find those numbers.
>
> /Mikael "strange boost" Akesson
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Tuning on AWD dyno
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:04:09 -0700
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of R.G.
> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 1:52 AM
> To: chemist1@ozemail.com.au
> Cc: Stealth/3000GT List
> Subject: Team3S: Re: Tuning on AWD dyno

<snip>

> > Are both of these problems symptoms of the engine not being
> tuned properly?
>
> The "puff" is somewhat normal for hi-po turbo cars. The Porsche
> Turbos do this
> usually from day one as well as the Italian mini-turbo cars. My
> tips are darker
> then black due to the fact that our cars are running very rich.
> This can only be
> tuned-in with an A/F controller, but don't expect any horses for this.

I hope you are not suggesting that tuning a rich mixture to a more optimal
mixture is not going to give the engine more power.  If so that is simply
not true.

An engine's power is all about mixture.  If the mixture is just right there
can be a _huge_ difference in HP versus a situation where it is too lean or
too rich.  The mixture can be tuned with a VPC or MASC very nicely.  The AFC
is a poor general solution for hopefully (by now) obvious reasons.

> > Could this be fixed on a AWD dyno (the cars due to go in next
> week) or is
> > there very little that the dyno can tell you about the tuning of the car
> > that would not already be adjusted by the ECU?
>
> You can tune any boost-controller, A/F device, adjustable fuel pressure
> regulater, etc. on the dyno but on our cars nothing can be done.
> Like you said, the ECU does this for you.

This is confusing.  You say "but on our cars nothing can be done".  The
whole point of tuning any additional device (boost controller, fuel
computer, ignition computer) is to make more power and this definitely
helps.  Yes, the ECU still does its thing but it doesn't necessarily
outright override other properly designed tuning devices.

<snip>

> -- Roger


I am hoping we're just having a misunderstanding due to language ;)


Regards,

Barry

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: Boost Survey
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:58:22 -0800
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-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Chapleski [SMTP:mike.chapleski@ibm.net]
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 1998 2:24 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Boost Survey

<snip>

So answer the following?  All measurements in third gear, under WOT.
What kind of BC are you using? GReddy PRofec
What does it peak boost at? The BC is set for 1.1bar (15.95psi)
What is the steady state boost through 5500 RPM? 1.1bar (15.95psi)
What is the boost at 7000 RPM? drops to between .8bar & .9bar (11.60psi & 13.05psi)

Interesting exercise, which created some questions about the GReddy's fuzzy logic circuit. I made three runs
in third gear under WOT, starting at 4000-4500rpm, all within fifteen minutes of each other. Clear skies,
almost full moon, ambient temperature of 52 degrees. These are really the first WOT (third gear) runs I've
made since I re-programmed the unit. On the first run, the boost dropped rather rapidly (but roughly linear)
from 1.1bar down to .6bar by redline. The second run held up better, dropping down to between .7bar & .8bar
by redline. I tried it one more time (as traffic allowed) and found much less drop (as shown above). Is the
fuzzy logic still learning the system variables? Or? Engine temps, oil pressure, road conditions, WOT, etc.
all remained constant. What changes (if any) should (could) occur in 4th gear? I rarely get a stretch of open
freeway where I can run it much beyond 100mph.

BTW, in case others have misplaced the formula, 1.0bar = 14.504psi

I should have my downpipe & test pipe on within two weeks, I'll check it again.

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov  3 13:02:03 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 06:16:41 +0100
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Ron-a-roid wrote:
>
> BTW; anybody disconnected the passenger airbag? Got a 5 year old boy who
> don't fair well in the back seat and I'm gonna have to do this, maybe a
> switch or something.

Is this physical or behavioral?  Just curious, since I was hoping
my daughter (currently 13 months) would be able to fit back there
for quite some years to come.  The front facing car seat worked
well until recently, when she grew tall enough that her legs went
past the edge of the seat (now there isn't enough leg room), but
once she's in a booster seat and then just in the regular seat,
I thought there would be ample room (ever see those little elem.
school chairs?).  It alse seems like such a cozy but comfortable
bucket seat would be safer than a big, open, flat back seat like
in most cars.  Thanx...

-Jim
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews

*** 3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov  3 14:12:26 1998
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From: "Ron-a-roid" <rtetetet@email.msn.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Youngsters in Back Seat
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 17:15:58 -0500
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Our 5 year old doesn't fare well in the back because he gets carsick.  Even
though he is a fairly big kid (70 lbs. and 4 ft. tall), he cannot see out
those little windows, or over the back of the front seats very well.....
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Matthews <matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Youngsters in Back Seat


>Ron-a-roid wrote:
>>
>> BTW; anybody disconnected the passenger airbag? Got a 5 year old boy who
>> don't fair well in the back seat and I'm gonna have to do this, maybe a
>> switch or something.
>
>Is this physical or behavioral?  Just curious, since I was hoping
>my daughter (currently 13 months) would be able to fit back there
>for quite some years to come.  The front facing car seat worked
>well until recently, when she grew tall enough that her legs went
>past the edge of the seat (now there isn't enough leg room), but
>once she's in a booster seat and then just in the regular seat,
>I thought there would be ample room (ever see those little elem.
>school chairs?).  It alse seems like such a cozy but comfortable
>bucket seat would be safer than a big, open, flat back seat like
>in most cars.  Thanx...
>
> -Jim
>--
>Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
>matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps ISDN)
>http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews
>
>*** 3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
>http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
>Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
>Adjustable Active Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
>K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84% BADC)
>A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
>Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
>Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided brake lines
>Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph
>G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov  3 14:34:17 1998
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Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 23:14:28 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Tuning on AWD dyno
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> > tuned-in with an A/F controller, but don't expect any horses for this.
>
> I hope you are not suggesting that tuning a rich mixture to a more optimal
> mixture is not going to give the engine more power.  If so that is simply
> not true.

Nono, you're right. Of course the closer to the perfect mixture the more horses
you'll get. I definitely mixed up two sentences :/

> The AFC is a poor general solution for hopefully (by now) obvious reasons.

I was able to get about 15hp with the help of the AFC. Of course it can't do
what the TRE does as it only tweaks the MAS signal by rpm. The VPC also can do
more. But leaning the mixture out a little more around 5600 really helped.

> This is confusing.  You say "but on our cars nothing can be done".  The
> whole point of tuning any additional device (boost controller, fuel
> computer, ignition computer) is to make more power and this definitely
> helps.

Sure i agree with you by 150%, but the question was "...what can be tuned on a
stock car ?" (bone stock car). "Any additional" device is the keyword here and
this is where the power lies for sure. IMHO, I don't know any way to make the
mixture richer or leaner without an additional device. The only screw I know of
is the idle adjust :) and also the plugs can be regapped. Any more stock
tune-in's ?

> Yes, the ECU still does its thing but it doesn't necessarily
> outright override other properly designed tuning devices.

Yes, the ECU cannot override the devices as they tweak the ECU thinking
everything is about normal <g> I think the confusion is not due to the language
but due to interpreting the question. But I'm sure we are speaking the same way
with the same understanding :)

Cheers, Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov  3 14:34:23 1998
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> Is this physical or behavioral?  Just curious, since I was hoping
> my daughter (currently 13 months) would be able to fit back there
> for quite some years to come.

I had some youngsters between 2 1/2 and 8 in my car (depend on girlfriend I had
<g>) and we never had any problem with physical "fitting". Also they often fell
asleep after a few minutes ;-)

No overboost with kids in the car allowed !

Cheers,
Roger


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov  3 14:34:26 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Free Flowing Exhausts
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> 49177-004x0 are part numbers for the TD04L-13G 6cm^2 where x may be 0, 1 or 2
>        |
>        +- This digit on a 13G is ground down "2" and stamped with "0"
>           It will be very obvious.

This is exactly what on mine has been done. BTW, the rear one shows 00400 and
the front 00300 (?) Unfortunately the ground work was done bad and the third
digit could also be an 8.

> Also, if you look at the compressor wheel it will be immediately obvious.
> Look at Bob Fontanna's site for pictures of each of 9B, 13G and 15G (which
> look identical to 13G wheels other than the diameter).

Yep, mine are 13G's (hehe)

Cheers,
Roger
-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov  3 14:34:28 1998
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As we now, David Buschur was able to create a front replacement pipe but not the
rear one. Does anybody know of any other "pipe-maker" that is able to do a
replacement, maybe also with a O2 housing replacement part too ? I already
emailed HRC Hahn Racecraft as they are producing the "Eliminator Downpipe/O2
housings" but I haven't got any response yet.

Any ideas ?

Thanks, Roger
-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov  3 17:54:08 1998
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No Roger. I have not found a set either. If you do keep me in mind. I'll buy a
set too.
Arty 91 VR-4

In a message dated 11/3/98 11:38:15 PM !!!First Boot!!!, robby@swissonline.ch
writes:

<< From: robby@swissonline.ch (R.G.)
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Reply-to: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com

As we now, David Buschur was able to create a front replacement pipe but not
the
rear one. Does anybody know of any other "pipe-maker" that is able to do a
replacement, maybe also with a O2 housing replacement part too ? I already
emailed HRC Hahn Racecraft as they are producing the "Eliminator Downpipe/O2
housings" but I haven't got any response yet.

Any ideas ?

Thanks, Roger
-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
  >>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov  3 22:16:54 1998
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Radar Detectors...
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 22:18:06 -0800
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We don't want to spend a lot of bandwidth on this, but because we have lots
of new folks on "Team3S" who haven't been on other lists, I think it bears
some discussion.  It's been carefully researched by Parham and others, that
the Valentine One is the only way to go, and that other types of "laser
neutralizing" systems are total bunk.  Is there a central page on someone's
site with a full explanation?  Parham...?  Eric...?

Rather than a two month discussion, with flames and all, and a small thesis
or two from Parham, I think a few points and a referral page will give us
all the info we need.  Suggestions, anyone...?

Thanks, all...

Forrest

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov  3 22:26:54 1998
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From: "Oskar" <swede@pclink.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Passenger airbag diconnect (Was Brake Wobble)
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:27:02 -0600
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I just learned something that I would've never found out if it wasn't for
this list.  Thanks Dennis for being so informed.  I will further look into
this matter as my wife and I would like to have one of these switches
installed.  I would've never imagined that there would be a switch available
for my Stealth!  I envisioned myself under the dash snipping wires...  I'm
glad I can skip that idea!

BTW - there is a printable form right on this site.

Oskar
'95 R/T TT
"The Great White"
soon with optional passenger airbag

Dennis Moore wrote:

>
>http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/airbags/
>
>According to the links on this page, the switches for all model years of
>the Stealth were available 20 Oct, and 3000s should be available by
>mid-December.
>
>Oddly enough, one thing I didn't find was how to obtain the form you need
>to fill out to get the switch installation authorized...
>
>Hope this helps.
>
>Dennis Moore
>stealth@kiva.net


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov  3 22:49:03 1998
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Roger Wrote: >Try to check the number shown on the front bottom of >the front turbo. Or just
>remove the intake pipe and look into the turbine.

It's a little hard to see the number the lights in the garage at my work isn't the best. And the winning number is (I think)  (drums...) 49177-02300

What did I win ??? A 13G or just the 9 ?? :)

/Mikael


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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Hmmm I must have missed the mail when you posted it last time.

And now I know that I have the 9B turbos. (or atleast one 9B)

I thought about one more possibility and that is if the previous owner in US have changed to 13 or 15G turbos the car woulden't have been alowed into sweden because of the missmatch numbers on the turbos. (all part numbers are checked when imported to see that the car is 100% stock) The easiest way to change the numbers is to just change the front trubo and let the back turbo remain the aftermarket turbo.

Can this be possible?? would a car run at all with this "sequencial twinturbo design" ?? Actually this isn't such a dumb idea if we construct a Y-pipe that restrict air from turning and going back to the other turbo beacause the would make the two turbos (one big and one HUGE) work against each other and massive compressor surge.

/Mikael "Still confused but on a higher level"

From: Barry E. King <beking@home.com>


>Mikael,
>
>A week or so back I posted a detailed description of how to identify 9Bs and
>13Gs.  Did you not see the post?  It was in direct response to one of your
>messages.
>


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 00:06:06 1998
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> all part numbers are checked when imported to see that the car is 100% stock

Hehe, my Camaro Z28 also was imported to Switzerland and the only thing they
checked was the noise, intake filter and exhaust :)

> Can this be possible?? would a car run at all with this "sequencial twinturbo
> design" ??

I can't see why not. IMHO it is not a real good idea to do this as the
backpressure from the turbos is different and the banks would be under different
load. On the Supra the small/big turbo design works as they are connected to one
exhaust manifold and at lower rpm while the small one is spinning the rear
bigger one is standing still (sequential). A real dual-turbo (big/small) turbo
system could gain of a smaller lag and better low end power as well as holding
boost up to the redline :) But I think the exhaust manifolds should be connected
together in some way for this.

Cheers, Roger
-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 01:19:40 1998
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Thanks Barry for the reply.
Barry E. King wrote:
> Quite often the rotten egg smell accompanies a failing or failed catalytic converter

Actually the car has only really produced this rotten egg smell since I
changed the air filter to the K&N replacement. I don't know if this
would effect anything, but it only started happening once the stock air
filter was changed.
  
> What color are your tailpipes?  Is there a high amount of soot?

The tail pipes are clean. There is only the slight discoloration of the
chrome due to the heat, but no soot.

Cheers
Andrew
Australia
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 03:54:59 1998
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From: Bob Fontana <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Free Flowing Exhausts
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 06:54:27 -0500
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Guys,

Do you really think that the inspectors go as far as to
check the numbers on the compressor housings?  If the
length of this thread is any indication of the amount of
confusion that exists about those numbers, how would the
inspectors be able to tell?  Who in Sweden knows enough
about these cars to realize that there's even a
*difference* between compressor wheels?

-Bob

I thought about one more possibility and that is if the
previous owner in US have changed to 13 or 15G turbos the
car woulden't have been alowed into sweden because of the
missmatch numbers on the turbos. (all part numbers are
checked when imported to see that the car is 100% stock)
The easiest way to change the numbers is to just change the
front trubo and let the back turbo remain the aftermarket
turbo.

Can this be possible?? would a car run at all with this
"sequencial twinturbo design" ?? Actually this isn't such a
dumb idea if we construct a Y-pipe that restrict air from
turning and going back to the other turbo beacause the
would make the two turbos (one big and one HUGE) work
against each other and massive compressor surge.

/Mikael "Still confused but on a higher level"

From: Barry E. King <beking@home.com>


>Mikael,
>
>A week or so back I posted a detailed description of how
to identify 9Bs and
>13Gs.  Did you not see the post?  It was in direct
response to one of your
>messages.
>


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 06:12:18 1998
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From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?=" <vr4@bahnhof.se>
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Subject: RE: Team3S: Free Flowing Exhausts
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It's time to end the Swedish thread regarding turbos now. But first one last thing. The inspectors are using some list there all serialnumbers of the cars produced are listed and all partnumbers of exhaust, turbos, CAT, ECU and engine etc. are listed so they can see that the car fulfill the polution spec. I have heard of several people that have bought a car from Germany or US and when the car are tested they notice that the ECU isn't stock and they then have to buy a brand new ECU and that is very expensive. BTW I had to "jam" the active exhaust in tour mode to get past the test.

Over and out
From: Bob Fontana <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>

>Guys,
>
>Do you really think that the inspectors go as far as to
>check the numbers on the compressor housings?  If the
>length of this thread is any indication of the amount of
>confusion that exists about those numbers, how would the
>inspectors be able to tell?  Who in Sweden knows enough
>about these cars to realize that there's even a
>*difference* between compressor wheels?
>
>-Bob


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 08:02:57 1998
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From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: pre-cat replacement
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:03:27 -0800
Organization: ADP Dealer Services
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Howdy folks...

Sounds like there's two folks looking for pre-cat replacement pipes. I'll be a third. Perhaps, if we pool our
numbers, we have enough business to prompt a shop to make a production run? Someone like ATR might be
interested, as they already stock everything from the downpipe and back. I'll give them a call, but let me
know:

A. If you're interested
B. What year you'd need (I believe it'll be different for 1st and 2nd gen 3KGT, not sure about Stealths).

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4
-----Original Message-----
From: Aso8@aol.com [SMTP:Aso8@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 5:54 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Cc: Aso8@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Free Flowing Exhausts / pre-cat replacement

No Roger. I have not found a set either. If you do keep me in mind. I'll buy a
set too.
Arty 91 VR-4

In a message dated 11/3/98 11:38:15 PM !!!First Boot!!!, robby@swissonline.ch
writes:

<< From: robby@swissonline.ch (R.G.)
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Reply-to: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com

As we now, David Buschur was able to create a front replacement pipe but not
the
rear one. Does anybody know of any other "pipe-maker" that is able to do a
replacement, maybe also with a O2 housing replacement part too ? I already
emailed HRC Hahn Racecraft as they are producing the "Eliminator Downpipe/O2
housings" but I haven't got any response yet.

Any ideas ?

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 08:09:55 1998
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From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: Radar Detectors...
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:10:20 -0800
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Howdy folks...

My best recommendation for reviews on detectors is Road & Track. They've done one every two years. Seems like
a good test process, clear write-ups. V1 has always been the clear leader.

However, as a V1 owner who just received a lidar citation a few months back, the best source for information
about tickets and how to fight them, is the National Motorist Association (NMA). They're located at:

http://www.motorists.com/index.html

The annual membership is reasonable, you get a newsletter, a introductory tape on how to fight tickets, and
access to their court materials. For $30/month rental, they offer a five pound ticket fighting package with
videos, five books, checklists, and state specific laws, that's the best I've ever seen.

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Forrest [SMTP:bf@bobforrest.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 10:18 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Radar Detectors...
<snip>

Rather than a two month discussion, with flames and all, and a small thesis
or two from Parham, I think a few points and a referral page will give us
all the info we need.  Suggestions, anyone...?

Thanks, all...Forrest

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 08:12:26 1998
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From: Bob Fontana <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: pre-cat replacement
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:11:52 -0500
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Dave B. has replacement pipes for the front.  I think they
are $125 apiece.  He can be reached at (419) 929-2378.  I
have one and it looks/fits great.

-Bob
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 08:27:41 1998
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> A. If you're interested

YES ! Maybe with O2 housing eliminator (bigger is better)

> B. What year you'd need

93'3000GT (but I'm not sure if the precats are different)

We already know that David has the front one but not the rear. IMHO, if I change
them I'll do both.

Thanks,
Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 08:32:26 1998
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From: "Robert T. Rand" <rtr@vnet.net>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: pre-cat replacement
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:34:18 -0500
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I could use a little advice.  I am getting ready to gut the pre-cats on my
93 Stealth TT.  Is there any problem with doing this, or any issues that I
should be prepaired to deal with before I start the project.

Thanks in advance for the info

Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: R.G. <robby@swissonline.ch>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: pre-cat replacement


>> A. If you're interested
>
>YES ! Maybe with O2 housing eliminator (bigger is better)
>
>> B. What year you'd need
>
>93'3000GT (but I'm not sure if the precats are different)
>
>We already know that David has the front one but not the rear. IMHO, if I
change
>them I'll do both.
>
>Thanks,
>Roger
>
>-----------------------
>Roger Gerl, Switzerland
>93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 08:48:19 1998
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Message-ID: <01BE07CF.F2F4B260.cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: gutting the cat
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:48:51 -0800
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Bob...

What do you mean by "gut"?

If the interior of the pipe is not smooth, I think there will be an issue with flow.

Another issue, for those of us with periodic DEQ requirements, is the ability to change the system back to
stock to pass emissions tests (although I've heard that some still pass w/o the main cat). That's every two
years in Oregon.

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert T. Rand [SMTP:rtr@vnet.net]
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 8:34 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: pre-cat replacement

I could use a little advice.  I am getting ready to gut the pre-cats on my
93 Stealth TT.  Is there any problem with doing this, or any issues that I
should be prepaired to deal with before I start the project.

Thanks in advance for the info

Bob

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 08:49:39 1998
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: "Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Radar Detectors...
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:50:48 -0800
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Thanks to Parham for sending me the URL to the detector section on his
site...

www.3000gt.com/radar.htm

Forrest



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 08:51:39 1998
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Hi Chris, my year is the 91 VR-4. I'd like both precat downpipes made in
Stainless Steel with the O2 housing. I wood need at least a 3 inch pipe size
to make it worth the effort to change. If they will do it, advise cost prior
to ordering. Maybe afew others may wish to order too. Quanity reduction?
Thanks Arty

In a message dated 11/4/98 8:04:02 AM Pacific Standard Time,
cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com writes:

<< Subj: Team3S: RE: pre-cat replacement
Date: 11/4/98 8:04:02 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com (Chris Winkley)
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Reply-to: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com ('stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com')

Howdy folks...

Sounds like there's two folks looking for pre-cat replacement pipes. I'll be
a third. Perhaps, if we pool our
numbers, we have enough business to prompt a shop to make a production run?
Someone like ATR might be
interested, as they already stock everything from the downpipe and back. I'll
give them a call, but let me
know:

A. If you're interested
B. What year you'd need (I believe it'll be different for 1st and 2nd gen
3KGT, not sure about Stealths).
  >>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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In a message dated 11/4/98 11:33:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, rtr@vnet.net
writes:

<< I could use a little advice.  I am getting ready to gut the pre-cats on my
93 Stealth TT.  Is there any problem with doing this, or any issues that I
should be prepaired to deal with before I start the project. >>

Bob,

   There really aren't any problems with gutting your pre-cats unless your
worried about air-polution.  If anything, gutting the pre-cats should give you
some extra power, and keep the exhuast temps. down a bit which is a good thing
:).

If you have a lift gutting the rear-cat will be twice as easy, if not get the
car off the ground as high as you can so you have some room to work. 
But first, the front cat is easy to gut.  Just unbolt the cat and take it out.
Put it on the work bench and gut away (I used a drill and several huge screw
drivers and a chissel). 
Then its time for the fun to begin.. the rear cat! :).  I've gutted two of
them so far, and its a REAL bitch.  First take the proper safety precautions.
I wore a ski-cap with a T-shirt/towel around my face to keep any hot metal
shavings from burning my skin (also had a set of thick overalls so the rest of
my body was protected).  I also wore a nice pair of protective eye goggles to
keep my eyes safe.

When your face/neck/body is protected, get underneath the car and with a
fairly larger drill bit, drill away.  When drilling make sure to take your
time and not drill through the other side of the pre-cat!  That wouldn't be
pretty..  Dont worry about removing the rear 02 sesor, because it is far up
and out of the way (pretty much impossible to hit it).  What I did was drilled
the crap out as best I could, then I took a chissle and chisseled away.  Use a
long pair of needle nose to remove the chunks.  It took me a good hour to get
everything cleaned out of the rear cat (doesn't include the time to remove the
downpipe and everything else).

But when its all over and done with, new gaskets and all, the car will sound
alot better IMO and the turbos will spool instantly!  We'll worth the time and
effort :).

Mike Mahaffey - '94 Stealth tt Best et: 11.6  Best mph: 120.7
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 09:33:50 1998
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Message-ID: <002201be08e2$bfb083c0$26d752a6@rtr>
From: "Robert T. Rand" <rtr@vnet.net>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: gutting the cat
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:35:51 -0500
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Chris,  It is my intent to remove all the material from the pre-cats so that
it will be as much of a straight thru pipe as possible.  Won't be totally
smooth, but less restrictive than with cat material.

My Mods that I am in the process of doing at this point will be:

. K&N  air charger (cheaper because I dont have to worry about   emissions
testing)
. Borla cat back
. Super blow off valve
. Boost controller
. Magnicore wires
. Plat. plugs.
. Gut cat or install test pipe.
. Gut pre-cats.

Will stop there for awhile as I am just driving on the street not on track.
I live in South Carolina, so don;t have to worry about emissions testing.

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: 'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com' <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 12:18 PM
Subject: Team3S: RE: gutting the cat


>Bob...
>
>What do you mean by "gut"?
>
>If the interior of the pipe is not smooth, I think there will be an issue
with flow.
>
>Another issue, for those of us with periodic DEQ requirements, is the
ability to change the system back to
>stock to pass emissions tests (although I've heard that some still pass w/o
the main cat). That's every two
>years in Oregon.
>
>Looking forward...Chris
>
>"Friends don't let friends ride with me"
>
>1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Robert T. Rand [SMTP:rtr@vnet.net]
>Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 8:34 AM
>To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: pre-cat replacement
>
>I could use a little advice.  I am getting ready to gut the pre-cats on my
>93 Stealth TT.  Is there any problem with doing this, or any issues that I
>should be prepaired to deal with before I start the project.
>
>Thanks in advance for the info
>
>Bob
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 09:39:12 1998
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From: "Robert T. Rand" <rtr@vnet.net>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: pre-cat replacement
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:41:19 -0500
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Thanks Mike,  That was exactly what I was hoping to hear.  Ans thanks for
the project outline. (Saves head scratching time)

Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: LotoBoost@aol.com <LotoBoost@aol.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: pre-cat replacement


>In a message dated 11/4/98 11:33:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, rtr@vnet.net
>writes:
>
><< I could use a little advice.  I am getting ready to gut the pre-cats on
my
> 93 Stealth TT.  Is there any problem with doing this, or any issues that I
> should be prepaired to deal with before I start the project. >>
>
>Bob,
>
>   There really aren't any problems with gutting your pre-cats unless your
>worried about air-polution.  If anything, gutting the pre-cats should give
you
>some extra power, and keep the exhuast temps. down a bit which is a good
thing
>:).
>
>If you have a lift gutting the rear-cat will be twice as easy, if not get
the
>car off the ground as high as you can so you have some room to work.
>But first, the front cat is easy to gut.  Just unbolt the cat and take it
out.
>Put it on the work bench and gut away (I used a drill and several huge
screw
>drivers and a chissel).
>Then its time for the fun to begin.. the rear cat! :).  I've gutted two of
>them so far, and its a REAL bitch.  First take the proper safety
precautions.
>I wore a ski-cap with a T-shirt/towel around my face to keep any hot metal
>shavings from burning my skin (also had a set of thick overalls so the rest
of
>my body was protected).  I also wore a nice pair of protective eye goggles
to
>keep my eyes safe.
>
>When your face/neck/body is protected, get underneath the car and with a
>fairly larger drill bit, drill away.  When drilling make sure to take your
>time and not drill through the other side of the pre-cat!  That wouldn't be
>pretty..  Dont worry about removing the rear 02 sesor, because it is far up
>and out of the way (pretty much impossible to hit it).  What I did was
drilled
>the crap out as best I could, then I took a chissle and chisseled away.
Use a
>long pair of needle nose to remove the chunks.  It took me a good hour to
get
>everything cleaned out of the rear cat (doesn't include the time to remove
the
>downpipe and everything else).
>
>But when its all over and done with, new gaskets and all, the car will
sound
>alot better IMO and the turbos will spool instantly!  We'll worth the time
and
>effort :).
>
>Mike Mahaffey - '94 Stealth tt Best et: 11.6  Best mph: 120.7
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 11:54:36 1998
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          Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:54:32 -0800
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Free Flowing Exhausts
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 12:56:19 -0700
Message-ID: <000001be082d$30d70120$0500a8c0@beast.kingdom.com>
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Actually that is correct.  -004x0 is one side, 003x0 is the other  :)


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of R.G.
> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 3:25 PM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Free Flowing Exhausts
>
>
> > 49177-004x0 are part numbers for the TD04L-13G 6cm^2 where x
> may be 0, 1 or 2
> >        |
> >        +- This digit on a 13G is ground down "2" and stamped with "0"
> >           It will be very obvious.
>
> This is exactly what on mine has been done. BTW, the rear one
> shows 00400 and
> the front 00300 (?) Unfortunately the ground work was done bad
> and the third
> digit could also be an 8.
>
> > Also, if you look at the compressor wheel it will be
> immediately obvious.
> > Look at Bob Fontanna's site for pictures of each of 9B, 13G and
> 15G (which
> > look identical to 13G wheels other than the diameter).
>
> Yep, mine are 13G's (hehe)
>
> Cheers,
> Roger

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 11:55:50 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Tuning on AWD dyno
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 12:57:33 -0700
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Roger,

As to your responses, I figured as much but just wanted to be sure.  I
wanted to make sure that clean Swiss air wasn't affecting the brain cells or
something  ;)

I know you know, and now you know I know, and know everyone else knows,
and...and...


Regards,

Barry


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of R.G.
> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 3:14 PM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Tuning on AWD dyno
>
>
> > > tuned-in with an A/F controller, but don't expect any horses for this.
> >
> > I hope you are not suggesting that tuning a rich mixture to a
> more optimal
> > mixture is not going to give the engine more power.  If so that
> is simply
> > not true.
>
> Nono, you're right. Of course the closer to the perfect mixture
> the more horses
> you'll get. I definitely mixed up two sentences :/
>
> > The AFC is a poor general solution for hopefully (by now)
> obvious reasons.
>
> I was able to get about 15hp with the help of the AFC. Of course
> it can't do
> what the TRE does as it only tweaks the MAS signal by rpm. The
> VPC also can do
> more. But leaning the mixture out a little more around 5600 really helped.
>
> > This is confusing.  You say "but on our cars nothing can be done".  The
> > whole point of tuning any additional device (boost controller, fuel
> > computer, ignition computer) is to make more power and this definitely
> > helps.
>
> Sure i agree with you by 150%, but the question was "...what can
> be tuned on a
> stock car ?" (bone stock car). "Any additional" device is the
> keyword here and
> this is where the power lies for sure. IMHO, I don't know any way
> to make the
> mixture richer or leaner without an additional device. The only
> screw I know of
> is the idle adjust :) and also the plugs can be regapped. Any more stock
> tune-in's ?
>
> > Yes, the ECU still does its thing but it doesn't necessarily
> > outright override other properly designed tuning devices.
>
> Yes, the ECU cannot override the devices as they tweak the ECU thinking
> everything is about normal <g> I think the confusion is not due
> to the language
> but due to interpreting the question. But I'm sure we are
> speaking the same way
> with the same understanding :)
>
> Cheers, Roger

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 12:00:54 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 15:00:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: gutting the cat
In-Reply-To: <002201be08e2$bfb083c0$26d752a6@rtr>
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OK, pardon my ignorance, but what's the real difference between gutting a
cat and replacing it with a pipe section?  I know removing the cat is
illegal, but what's the difference in terms of flow, pressure,
performance, etc.?

Dennis Moore
stealth@kiva.net
93 Stealth ES  (with no empty feline skins...)

On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Robert T. Rand wrote:

> Chris,  It is my intent to remove all the material from the pre-cats so that
> it will be as much of a straight thru pipe as possible.  Won't be totally
> smooth, but less restrictive than with cat material.
>
[snip]

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 14:06:31 1998
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Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 23:05:14 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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> OK, pardon my ignorance, but what's the real difference between gutting a
> cat and replacing it with a pipe section?

For turbo cars a max flowing exhaust is the best to get rid of the hot stuff
from the turbos. Gutting a cat is a free mod as you only have to invest some
hours of work. As the cat is always larger in diameter than a normal tube I do
not expect a restriction or any bad interferences from a gutted cat.

But a replacement pipe could be made of a larger diameter than the in and out
flanges of the cats. Also such a tube could eliminate the O2 housing and
therefore also help to increase the exhaust diameter after the turbo. IMHO,
gutting the cat would free up the exhaust flow a lot but we still have the O2
housing out and the pre-cat in/out that are less than 2". Therefore a 2 1/2" dp
that leads into a 3" exhaust doesn't help a lot. Going the full path means
getting rid the restrictions with a tube that is at least 2 1/2" dia or more.

Gutting the cat helps and is free, aftermarket replacement tubes are a cost
factor :(

For the carb tests Mitsu told me that the front cats are made to lower pollution
during the first miles until the main cat heated up (makes sense). Therefore if
the test is done on a warm/hot car then the measurments should be within the
tolerances.

Cheers, Roger

PS:
Please note, that gutting the cats on your NT car could lower your performance
due to the loss of backpressure. Maybe you'll gain top end power but loosing
some low end tourque.

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 14:11:17 1998
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From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: gutting the cat
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 14:11:46 -0800
Organization: ADP Dealer Services
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Dennis...

Legal and environmental issues aside, I believe there's three differences:

1. Replacing the pre-cats (or cat) with a pipe will provide better flow, less turbulence, than gutting them.
2. When (if) emissions testing time comes around, you can re-install the factory equipment.
3. Swapping them out has to be a heck of a lot less work (but more $$$) than chiseling and drilling.  :-)

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Moore [SMTP:stealth@kiva.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 12:01 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: gutting the cat

OK, pardon my ignorance, but what's the real difference between gutting a cat and replacing it with a pipe
section?  I know removing the cat is illegal, but what's the difference in terms of flow, pressure,
performance, etc.?

Dennis Moore
stealth@kiva.net
93 Stealth ES  (with no empty feline skins...)

On Thu, 5 Nov 1998, Robert T. Rand wrote:

Chris,  It is my intent to remove all the material from the pre-cats so that it will be as much of a straight
thru pipe as possible. Won't be totally smooth, but less restrictive than with cat material.
[snip]

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 14:12:17 1998
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Subject: Team3S: Water Injection
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I saw this yesterday on the DSM parts trader :


                                Joe Barrett
                              TwinT13b@msn.com
                               208.250.122.160
                         November 03, 1998 - 07:58:19 PM

Hey all i bought a bunch of water injection systems to get a better price and i
need to get rid of them i paid 500 and will sell them for 350 my loss your gain
email me if you want to go HIGH BOOST this system will cool your intake air so
you can run more boost

----

I'll contact him to know what systems these are and will post here :)

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 14:23:37 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Water Injection
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 15:25:12 -0700
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This smells rotten.

The only kits I know of that are in that price range are the ERL Aquamist
systems made in the UK.  They start at $450 USD or so retail and go on up to
over $900 which includes a 3D mapped computer to control injection.  Cool
but pricey.

BG Customs sells a kit for around $255.  The Spearco kit is $155 or so.  I
am sure there are other comparable kits since they are quite simple really.

No sane individual I know would pay $500/ea for a bunch of systems to get a
better price then take a $150/unit loss.  Must've been one hell of a
savings.

Curious as to what information you get back Roger ;)  Things that are too
good to be true usually are.


Regards,

Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of R.G.
> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 1998 3:12 PM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Team3S: Water Injection

> (from the DSM advert)
>
> Hey all i bought a bunch of water injection systems to get a
> better price and i
> need to get rid of them i paid 500 and will sell them for 350 my
> loss your gain
> email me if you want to go HIGH BOOST this system will cool your
> intake air so
> you can run more boost
>
> ----
> (from Roger "The G Man" G.)
>
> I'll contact him to know what systems these are and will post here :)

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 14:39:41 1998
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Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:39:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Dennis Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: gutting the cat
In-Reply-To: <3640CF9A.3A9B4A40@swissonline.ch>
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Yeah, I've heard all kinds of horror stories of NT S/3K owners going to a
larger diameter exhaust system, only to lose all kinds of performance.
Call me "Joe Conservative", but I think I'll stay OEM!

Speaking of air flow, it's been a few months since the starnet group
started discussing removal of the resonator on the intake.  (Cooler
sounding, supposedly better hp or torque.)  Has anyone here done that?
Any long-term problems cropped up related to this little trick?  Real
performance modifier, or purely aural aesthetic results?

Thanks.

Dennis Moore
stealth@kiva.net

On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, R.G. wrote:
[snip]
> PS:
> Please note, that gutting the cats on your NT car could lower your performance
> due to the loss of backpressure. Maybe you'll gain top end power but loosing
> some low end tourque.
>
> -----------------------
> Roger Gerl, Switzerland
> 93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 14:49:10 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: gutting the cat
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 15:50:52 -0700
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I really doubt the resonator mod does anything noticable for increased
performance.  All the resonator is doing is vibrating a column of air at a
certain frequencies to counteract intake tract noises at certain
frequencies.  Any performance increase will be minimal at best.

I used to work in the performance motorcycle industry.  Guys would come in
and order a pipe (header/exhaust system).  They'd install it without doing
any airbox or filter mods, or changing the jetting.  They'd come back after
it was installed and swear up and down the bike was faster.  On the dyno
they'd usually make anywhere from 5 HP LESS to 1-2 HP more.  Opening up the
intake and rejetting could net a gain of 5-10 HP depending upon the bike.

The moral of the story is looks fast, sounds fast IS fast.  The butt dyno
can't discern 10 HP one way or the other in a heavy car for an experienced
person let alone Joe Blow (apologies to anyone who actually owns that name).


Regards,

Barry

<snipped>

> Speaking of air flow, it's been a few months since the starnet group
> started discussing removal of the resonator on the intake.  (Cooler
> sounding, supposedly better hp or torque.)  Has anyone here done that?
> Any long-term problems cropped up related to this little trick?  Real
> performance modifier, or purely aural aesthetic results?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Dennis Moore
> stealth@kiva.net

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 20:25:07 1998
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: gutting the cat
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 20:25:46 -0800
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-----Original Message-----From: Dennis Moore <stealth@kiva.net>
-------snip--------
|Speaking of air flow, it's been a few months since the starnet group
|started discussing removal of the resonator on the intake.  (Cooler
|sounding, supposedly better hp or torque.)  Has anyone here done that?



Hey, Dennis,

I think you're the only NT guy I know of that HASN'T taken off the
resonator.  The resonator disturbs the airflow so as to quiet noise, but by
removing it, the straighter path does give a performance increase AND a
throatier sound.  For the logic of it, just think of it as akin to
installing polished headers: reduce the intake resistance and you get a gain
in HP.  The guy at my dealership told me about the mod, so I've had mine off
since I bought the car.  Just before I put on my FIPK, I put the resonator
BACK on for a couple of runs to see what the difference was, and there WAS a
difference of .1 or .2 sec, 0-60.

BTW, for anyone who's too shy to ask, I've got a description of how it's
done on Eric's site, it's at www.3Si.com .  And another thing...  Someone
else has a DIY description with pictures on their site, where they replaced
the resonator with another plastic bottle (instead of the bottle CAP)!!!
Putting another bottle there makes no sense at all, unless they left the cap
on (in which case they wouldn't need the bottle itself!?)...  Use a bottle
cap that fits, inside out to try to smooth out the path of the air intake as
much as possible.  It'll take you 5 minutes...

Best,

Forrest

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov  4 20:43:07 1998
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Bob Forrest wrote:

> BTW, for anyone who's too shy to ask, I've got a description of how it's
> done on Eric's site, it's at www.3Si.com .

Okay Bob, this is the second time in 2 days that you've posted a www reference site
without the http prefix for all of us who do not use Billy's system. We get no blue
hypertext to double click on when you do this dude. It really is a major inconvenience
for those of us who do not know how to use the keyboard to manually input this stuff, or
in fact, know how to digit dial. : )  : ) ; ) HUH?

Darc

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<HTML>
&nbsp;

<P>Bob Forrest wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>

<P>BTW, for anyone who's too shy to ask, I've got a description of how
it's
<BR>done on Eric's site, it's at www.3Si.com .</BLOCKQUOTE>
Okay Bob, this is the second time in 2 days that you've posted a www reference
site without the http prefix for all of us who <B>do not </B>use Billy's
system. We get no <B>blue </B>hypertext to double click on when you do
this dude. It really is a major inconvenience for those of us who do not
know how to use the keyboard to manually input this stuff, or in fact,
know how to digit dial. : )&nbsp; : ) ; ) HUH?

<P>Darc</HTML>

--------------3D2AD8BF6BA541FD66F42619--

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov  5 01:35:37 1998
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From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?=" <vr4@bahnhof.se>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Air to water intercooler
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:34:05 +0100
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Another stupid idea from the Swede :)

I'm planning to go with a air to water intercooler instead of air to air like everyone else is using.

There are some really good advantages with a water cooled intercooler.
- The intercooler are alot smaller than an air/air intercooler
- The air/water intercooler always have full effect even from idle with ofcourse will be a very big advatage for dragracing, the air/air intercooler will not do any good before the car has came up to speed.
- for dragracing the intercooler can be chilled with icewater to be even more efficient.
- The air intakes in the front can be used for cooling brakes and fresh air to the intake system.

The question now is: Does anyone have any good information about air/water intercoolers. I know that Spearco have them, do anyone know if they have a web page?

Any information will be great.

Thanks

Mikael http://www.bahnhof.se/~vr4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov  5 01:38:05 1998
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Resonator...  Was: gutting the cat
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 01:38:40 -0800
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Reply-To: stealth-3000gt

OK; for Darcy, and others, the resonator mod (for Non-Turbo S/3k...) is at:
http://www.3Si.com  and the Radar Detector reference I made previously is:
http://www.3000gt.com/radar.htm

But you're going to have to figure out how to send your mail as text
(instead of HTML) by yourself... ;-)

Best,

Forrest

    --Original Message--From:wce@bc.sympatico.ca
    Okay Bob, this is the second time in 2 days that you've posted a www
reference site without the http prefix for all of us who do not use Billy's
system. We get no blue hypertext to double click on when you do this dude.
It really is a major inconvenience for those of us who do not know how to
use the keyboard to manually input this stuff, or in fact, know how to digit
dial. : )  : ) ; ) HUH?


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov  5 04:26:01 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Air to water intercooler
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 05:27:37 -0700
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Air to water i/c is definitely a good idea and has a cool gee-whiz factor.
However, a few probelms with them make them not practical for a street
driven vehicle.

Eventually the water will get to ambient air temperature or above.  After
that the benefits begin to dwindle rapidly.  To avoid or at least defer that
problem you need to get the water out of the hot engine compartment.  That's
going to be even more difficult.

Using engine coolant in our cars is likely worse than an air-air charge
cooler in the long run if not outright.

If you are only concerned ONLY about dragracing and not everyday
performance, air-water is good if you use chilled water.

Now, if you could put that air conditioner to use chilling the exchanger's
water while you weren't worried about performance, that might be another
story...

Anyone tempted to suggest anything other than water (like alcohol and such,
not liquid nitrogen silly boys) alcohol is far less effective at cooling
than water.  Pure water has a high specific heat of evaporation and thereby
cools much better than most other readily available practical liquids.  The
only reason people mix alcohol and water when injected (see below) is due
help the water through the combustion chamber AFTER the water has done its
cooling thing in the intake tract.  Alcohol is hydroscopic (?) anyway, it
mixes easily with water allowing it to be more easily combusted in the
cylinder.

For anything else, air-air is still the way to go.  Based on Brad Bedell's
hard numbers measured pre and post exchanger his FMIC works amazingly well.
Hard to believe almost.

In order to read more, there is good information at Allied Signal websites
around the world.  Go to the Garret turbo division pages.  Sorry, no URL
handy but it will be easy to find if you do a search.  lso check out the
numerous WRC sites.  Those guys know a lot about intercooling but carefully
consider the context in which they are espousings the pros (or cons) of any
given approach.

I have given this a lot of thought.  A combination approach for the best of
both worlds?  Not practical and you'll be adding weight to the car in
addition to either complicated switchable pumbing or excessive pressure drop
if you used both at the same time.

Intercooler sprayers for the existing air-air exchangers?  Excellent and
proven effective in many types of racing.  Eventually you run out of water
to spray.  Really only worth it if air is moving across the exchanger.

If you want really good intercooling with additional anti-detonation
benefits go with water or water/alcohol injection.  It sprays only at boost
beginning at whatever you set so a gallon or so will last quite a while.
The kits can be had cheap.  They definitely work on both counts.  Indy cars
in years gone by used NO mechanical device for intercooling BUT spraying
water ONLY.  It works extremely well.  However, the Indy cars sprayed
directly onto the compressor wheel which caused premature wear, not a good
idea for a daily driver, so you'd want to spray into the Y-pipe upstream of
the throttle body.  You will not get any better intercooling effect period.

All that said, if you MUST have air-water make sure you send us pictures.
;)


Regards,

Barry



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Mikael Åkesson
> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 2:34 AM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Team3S: Air to water intercooler
>
>
> Another stupid idea from the Swede :)
>
> I'm planning to go with a air to water intercooler instead of air
> to air like everyone else is using.

<snipped>

>
> Thanks
>
> Mikael http://www.bahnhof.se/~vr4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov  5 06:13:47 1998
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From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?=" <vr4@bahnhof.se>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Air to water intercooler
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:12:09 +0100
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Reply-To: stealth-3000gt

Thanks Barry! Great info as allways.

Everything you say sounds good.

I also thought about how to cool the water so it stays cool all the time. Actually it's very easy to do. You need some kind of tank for the water and then pump water from the tank to the intercooler, from the intercooler to a front mounted air/air cooler like a normal engine cooler, and after that back into the tank. The bigger tank and air/air water cooler you have the cooler the water will stay. I'm sure someone with common knowledge about cooler systems easily can calculate the amount of water the system have to contain. With a setup like this the water never will have higher temperature (maybe slightly higher) than the outside air and that is ofcourse also the maximum faktor of an air/air intercooler.

Peugeot are using air/water systems on their 405 T16 and I can get two of their intercoolers for ~1.100$, a small radiator for the front will cost ~100$ and a bump will cost ~100$. One more good factor is that it's possible to shorten the tubes from turbo to intake alot compared to having the intercoolers in the fenders.

Yeah I know... I'm stupid :)

/Mikael

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov  5 08:10:37 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Air to water intercooler
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> Peugeot are using air/water systems on their 405 T16 and I can get two of
> their intercoolers for ~1.100$, a small radiator for the front will cost
> ~100$ and a bump will cost ~100$.

I thought I knew the 405 T16 pretty well but I never noticed that they are
having water ICs. I think there should some wrecks lying around at the salvage
yards and maybe you can use pump and IC from them for only a few bucks.

> One more good factor is that it's possible to shorten the tubes from turbo to
> intake alot compared to having the intercoolers in the fenders.

Have you thought about where to install the canister type water IC ? I just
don't know where you want to install them. I found an alloy Water IC from
AH-Fabrications UK (£430) with 2 1/2" Air and 5/8" water connections but its
size is 420mm x 325mm x 145mm.

I'll go with the big front IC from GT-Alley. This also eliminates the side IC
and will give me some more room for cooling and fresh-air projects :) Also the
fact that only one large pipe runs from the IC directly to the TB is a good
solution (IMHO, of course). I'll attach hose- and sensor-fittings to the piping
to be able to measure temperature and boost before and after IC to get the real
efficiency of the system.

> Yeah I know... I'm stupid :)

Guess what I am .....

Later,
Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov  5 11:45:14 1998
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From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@texas.net>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Air to water intercooler
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:43:51 -0600
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I know for a fact when building my 400hp MR2, some of the routes I took the
"experts" considered me stupid.

When time came to test the theories, some of mine actually worked.   The
stupid person is one who is afraid to try the idea they truly believe in.

Mikael WAKE UP!  Try your ideas and tell us about them.  I have always felt
a properly designed Water to Air IC would be awesome on a drag race vehicle.

Relocate the battery mount the IC in its place and shorten all the
intercooler plumbing by several meters.

> Brad
>
> Check out my home page:    http://lonestar.texas.net/~bbedell
> E-Mail: bbedell@texas.net ICQ#  3612682


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com] On Behalf Of Mikael Åkesson
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 8:12 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Air to water intercooler

Peugeot are using air/water systems on their 405 T16 and I can get two of
their intercoolers for ~1.100$, a small radiator for the front will cost
~100$ and a bump will cost ~100$. One more good factor is that it's possible
to shorten the tubes from turbo to intake alot compared to having the
intercoolers in the fenders.

Yeah I know... I'm stupid :)

/Mikael


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov  5 12:01:15 1998
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?= <vr4@bahnhof.se>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: The new super duper clutch :)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:00:41 +0100
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Reply-To: stealth-3000gt

Hi ALL !!

I'm glad to inform you that I now have a new clutch in my car. It works great.

BUT the drivability is somewhat... hmmm... let's call it binary. It is possible to slip the clutch but it feels very much like a binary on/off switch. :)

Totall cost  585$ including installation and resurfaced flywheel :)

Look at my home page to c pictures and get more info about it.

http://www.bahnhof.se/~vr4

/Mikael
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov  5 13:17:30 1998
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Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 13:15:25 -0800
Organization: West Coast Ethnographics
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Resonator...  Was: gutting the cat
References: <01a401be08a0$2df9fca0$21eb86cd@BobForrest>
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Thanks Bob;

...from myself and the rest of the challenged crowd. You're a genteleman and a
s.....mmmm...are those cowboy boots?  : )

Darc

Bob Forrest wrote:

> OK; for Darcy, and others, the resonator mod (for Non-Turbo S/3k...) is at:
> http://www.3Si.com  and the Radar Detector reference I made previously is:
> http://www.3000gt.com/radar.htm
>
> But you're going to have to figure out how to send your mail as text
> (instead of HTML) by yourself... ;-)
>
> Best,
>
> Forrest
>
>     --Original Message--From:wce@bc.sympatico.ca
>     Okay Bob, this is the second time in 2 days that you've posted a www
> reference site without the http prefix for all of us who do not use Billy's
> system. We get no blue hypertext to double click on when you do this dude.
> It really is a major inconvenience for those of us who do not know how to
> use the keyboard to manually input this stuff, or in fact, know how to digit
> dial. : )  : ) ; ) HUH?
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov  5 19:22:39 1998
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Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:22:32 -0500 (EST)
From: JEEPers <fxc9364@megahertz.njit.edu>
To: Team 3S <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Air to water intercooler
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I believe that Diamante wagon that uses the same Mitsu 3.0 engine had a
set-up like it.  I have the article for it but I gotta dig it up. It talks
about a custom IC  mounted in the area where the airbox is on a stock
VR-4.  This is the same general place and it is a custom one made by one
of the Cali firms who do ICs.  Anyhow, it was one of the Turbo writers or
editors who have it.  If you want, I can try to locate it and see if that
is useful for you guys. ...  Let me know though.


      Frank
                    -JEEPers-
"Kung-Fu Forrest"

MY WEB PAGE IS UP AT http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Canyon/6045/

"Jeep is America's only real sports car"     Mr. Enzo Ferrari

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov  5 19:46:31 1998
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From: "Robert T. Rand" <rtr@vnet.net>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Boost controllers
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 22:49:12 -0500
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Hey guys,   Am going to purchase a boost controller and would like some
advice as to which direction to go and what products are worth the money and
effort.

I would like opinions on manual controllers and  electronic and why one is
better or worse than the other.  I appreciate the experience of those in
this group that have already tried and tested the products and applications
that are available.

Thanks in advance for your input.

Bob
93 Stealt rt/tt

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov  5 21:08:15 1998
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From: "Rommel O. Dizon" <rdizon@ichips.intel.com>
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Subject: Team3S: 3si page, was Re: gutting the cat
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>OK; for Darcy, and others, the resonator mod (for Non-Turbo S/3k...) is
>at: http://www.3Si.com 

Make that

http://www.3si.org/

-- Rommel Dizon



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov  5 21:22:10 1998
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From: "Ron-a-roid" <rtetetet@email.msn.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Air to water intercooler
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:25:45 -0500
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>- for dragracing the intercooler can be chilled with icewater to be even
more efficient.

A friend of mine used to pack his inter cooler with dry ice for drag racing.
Another interesting idea is the same thing the air racers use called a spray
bar that sprays a mist over the coolers to add efficiency. Looking for an
added boost for a few pennies?

Ron



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov  5 22:15:06 1998
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 00:13:58 -0600
From: Jeff Crabtree <wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com>
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        "stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: HUGE ANNOUNCEMENT!!!
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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OK GUYS!

     I wanted to hold off on saying anything this time until I was SURE
that something was going to happen this time.

   After a (too) long wait, We are FINALLY going to get our 3SI
Merchandise!!!!!  I have found an embroiderer willing to do the work we
want!!  I am attaching a small version of the logo that will be used on
the merchandise.  This is the logo that Bob Forrest and I (but mostly
Bob) created as a hybrid of the logos so far. Since this will be the
first production run, your choice of merchandise will be limited.  Quite
limited, as a matter of fact.  To keep things simple, I have decided to
go with a long sleeve denim shirt, for our first palette, if you will.
I will be selecting a good quality shirt while at the same time looking
for a good value.  I apologize to those who aren't interested in the
denim shirt style, but for this first run I need to keep things as
simple as possible.  I assure all of you, if things go well, there will
be ALOT of stuff available with the logo on it....maybe even catalogs of
merchandise available.  I'm going to try to keep the cost of each shirt
below the $30 mark.  This really shouldn't be a problem because I am NOT
looking to make any money off of this project.  However, there are costs
involved as well as people that are going to make some profit from this
operation(I.E.  The guy selling me the blank shirts and the girl doing
the embroidery work for me).  I feel that this is fair considering these
people, unlike me, are in business to make money...I'm not going to
nickel and dime these people.  I know there were some folks a while back
that said that they could get the work done cheaper, but I haven't heard
anything from them since.  I am making a serious commitment to getting
this project launched and need the support of the folks in this
fledgling organization to make it happen.

If you would like to commit on this matter, please send comments
directly to me so that we aren't wasting other's time.  ***IMPORTANT***,
please put the word "SHIRTS" in the subject line of the mail as I will
be creating a mail filter to divert all of the mail on this matter to a
specific folder in my mail manager....this will help me out IMMENSELY in
dealing with the flood that I will probably get.

I will have more details as soon as they are available.  We are closer
than ever.

--
-Jeff Crabtree
   '91 Stealth R/T Turbo
      '93 Jeep YJ Wrangler Sport
          St. Louis, MO


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 08:19:41 1998
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Message-ID: <01BE095D.64C20D00.cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Cc: "'Andrew K'" <kyokushin@earthlink.net>, "'Cameron'" <cbran@dsinw.com>,
        "'Casey Bechtolt'" <bechtolt@aone.com>,
        "'Chris Winkley'" <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>,
        "'James Retych'" <grnviper@gte.net>,
        "'Jay Connelly'" <jay.connelly@intel.com>
Cc: "'Rich Leroy'" <rleroy@pacifier.com>, "'Roger Ludwig'" <yiotta@e-z.net>,
        "'Rommel Dizon'" <rdizon@ichips.intel.com>,
        "'Sankar'" <yoss@aracnet.com>, "'Scott McKenzie'" <maranello9@aol.com>
Subject: Team3S: Boost controller comparison - long
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:13:52 -0800
Organization: ADP Dealer Services
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Reply-To: stealth-3000gt

Bob...

Following your snipped message is a comparison of units by Chien at Nexus Motorsports. Since I've only owned
a GReddy PRofec, I can't provide a personal comparison. The good thing about the GReddy is the fuzzy logic
learning circuit, the bad thing is the red LED display (difficult to read in bright sun and no peak hold).
I've heard about the aquarium manual BC approach, but never known anyone who actually tried it.

Good luck!!!

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4

Chris J. Winkley
Director, Process Engineering
ADP, Inc., Dealer Services Division
2525 SW 1st Avenue
Portland, OR  97201
Phone:  503-402-3977
cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert T. Rand [SMTP:rtr@vnet.net]
Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 7:49 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Boost controllers

Hey guys,   Am going to purchase a boost controller and would like some
advice as to which direction to go and what products are worth the money and
effort.
<snip>
Bob
93 Stealt rt/tt
===========================================
HKS EVC IV:

Not all that impressed with it. I still think it looks better than some of the other units out there. Have
installed it on a
DSM and it ran fine. Did a RX-7......owner wanted it out in 3 weeks and swapped it for a Apex. Horror stories
from some 3/S list members as well as owners from other makes. I've never had a problem with this unit
personally, but it wouldn't be my first choice for a electronic boost controller (price is higher than the
competition). A 3 on a scale of 5.

Greddy Profec A         $530

I like this unit very much. I've been impressed with it's boost stability and responsiveness. The price isn't
bad when you compare
this to the HKS and the Apex. The red display is a little bit better in the sunlight than the green in the
AVC-R (when mounting in any location where it's prone to be hit by sunlight). We run this in our own VR-4.
Don't care much for the looks though. 5 out of 5.

Apex Super AVC-R        $550

Another unit that I like. Performance between the AVC-R and the Profec is a near tie. Very nice at holding
boost. You also get the added feature of injector duty cycle monitoring. No fuzzy logic. Programming is done
by setting the duty cycle and making some WOT runs under load (usually 3rd gear). This unit is supposedly
easier to tune than the Fuzzy Logic controllers that's so highly touted by it's competitors. I'm not so sure
of that. Apex has it right in theory, but I think most people get confused with setting and tuning the
injector duty cycle. Also, the actuator valve can be noisy. On some cars (like my GSX...grrr), it's near
impossible to find a location that drowns out the noise. Apex supplies a damping mount, sort of like a little
piece of Dyna-Mat, but sometimes that does not even work. The result is a constant ticking sound when under
high boost that's very audible in the cabin.   Of course I'm just nitpicking here. 4 out of 5. Would have
rated it higher if not for the confusing duty cycle setting.

Blitz Dual SBC          $480

Features and Performance of the Blitz DSBC is a near clone of the Greddy Profec "A". Looks better too. This
unit is a tiny one.  Ease of mounting and the numerous mounting locations because of size is a plus. Thumbs
down to the display. It's good, but it's tiny as well. Most folks likes to run a boost gauge that reads in
Psi anyway. Very high quality unit, and priced much lower than the competition. 5 out of 5. The AVC-R in the
GSX is about to find a new home..........

SARD EBC                $490

EBC?  Are we talking about the SARD Trigger here? The Trigger is a boost gauge looking unit (round, fits in
A-pillar though I'm not sure if it's 52mm). Basically, a very compact boost controller in the body of a boost
gauge. Not sure about performance, but I think it can be successful if market properly. Which btw, Sard and
Akimoto have done a very poor job of. It came out in Japan a few months ago, and I saw it at SEMA in
Akimoto's booth....that's about it. I suppose it was designed to be mounted like a boost gauge (which
normally goes on the A-pillar), but the resulting wiring harnesses and vacuum hoses must be a nightmare to
route. No rating.

***All opinions expressed are my own. Your satisfaction may differ. Please, no flames from the HKS or Apex
camps :) ***
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chien
Nexus Motorsports     Import Performance Parts Specialist
Phone: (888) 996-3988   The Fastest 3000GT/Stealth 1/4 Mile Times Page
http://www.nexusmotorsports.com


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 08:34:32 1998
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 08:34:28 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <middaugh@omega.gat.com>
Organization: General Atomics - Fusion Division
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Boost controllers
References: <01BE095D.64C20D00.cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
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An electronic boost controller is the best way to go.  However, you may want to check out the bleeder valve mods
too .  See http://www.3000gt.com, faq, turbo basics / bleeder valve installation, and also http://www.3si.org,
tips & tricks, bleeder valve mod for some info.  For pictures of a $2 bleeder valve installation, see Charlie
McCracken's page at http://www.xanthviper.com/pics/gallery/galleryhtms/3000GTVR4.htm, bleeder valve.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:   Robert T. Rand [SMTP:rtr@vnet.net]

> Hey guys,   Am going to purchase a boost controller and would like some
> advice as to which direction to go and what products are worth the money and
> effort.
>

--

Ken Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 08:46:16 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Boost controller comparison - long
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:47:57 -0700
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To anyone and everyone who doesn't already know.

The only really confusing thing about the SAVC-R was the fact that the
following misinformation got spread around in the first place.

> Apex has it right in theory, but I think most people get
> confused with setting and tuning the injector duty cycle.

You DO NOT set the IDC with the AVC-R.  It MONITORS and DISPLAYS IDC only.

Setting the BADC (boost actuator duty cycle) has been a confusing issue with
some people but it really isn't that difficult either.  It is an expression
of the amount of time the actuator must be cycled to achieve the target
boost.  It places a cap on the amount of boost the controller will attempt
to achieve.  A smart controller should be able to figure this out itself but
even the other "self-learning" EVCs still have manual controls.  I imagine
the potential for product failure and the accompanying liability makes this
limiting feature necessary.

Anyway, tuning is very simple.  Start at around 60% BADC and raise it until
you are able to achieve your desired boost setting (often this is 15 psi or
1.0 BAR).  You can see that the AVC-R is learning since the boost gauge
needle will oscilliate around the desired boost level as the unit attempts
to stabilize boost at the target setting.  If you overshoot your desired
boost and the unit will not learn, back off the BADC setting a few percent
and try again.  If you cannot achieve desrired boost bump up the BADC a few
percent.  Changing either the BADC or the boost setting will enable the
SAVC-R learn mode.

This has gone around before and hopefully most if not all aknow this by now.
It is irksome to see that particular piece of misinformation propagated over
and over.


Regards,

Barry

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 09:48:06 1998
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 18:46:51 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: pre-cat replacement
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> I already emailed HRC Hahn Racecraft as they are producing the "Eliminator
> Downpipe/O2 housings" but I haven't got any response yet.

Ok, still no reply from them :( Maybe I have to wait after SEMA....

Any other company out there that is able to produce such a replacement set ?

Regards,
Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 09:48:09 1998
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 18:44:34 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection
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> This smells rotten.
<snip>
> Curious as to what information you get back Roger ;)  Things that are too
> good to be true usually are.

Well, I asked the guy by email and he responded qwuickly only saying what a
water injection does (on his RX7). He did not respond again after I asked him
some details (brand, etc.).

Hmmm, we'll see :)

Take care,
Roger
-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 09:54:26 1998
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In a message dated 98-11-06 11:20:41 EST, you write:

<< The good thing about the GReddy is the fuzzy logic
learning circuit, the bad thing is the red LED display (difficult to read in
bright sun and no peak hold).  >>

Actually, I find the Greddy to be the easiest BC to read the LED display
during the day.  Far better than the AVC-R and EVC's I've seen.

Mike - '94 Stealth tt Best et: 11.6  Best mph: 120.7
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 09:54:31 1998
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From: "Cameron Brandon" <cbran@dsinw.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: adjusting the manual bleeder valve...
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 09:55:50 -0800
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Can you effectively 'adjust' the valve to increase or decrease psi, sort of
like a real boost controller by tightening it or loosening it? For example,
15psi or over would be bad with no other mods, so does loosening or
tightening the valve drop this to a more safe psi, like 12psi or so?

Cam



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 09:59:58 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: adjusting the manual bleeder valve...
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> Can you effectively 'adjust' the valve to increase or decrease psi, sort of
> like a real boost controller by tightening it or loosening it? For example,
> 15psi or over would be bad with no other mods, so does loosening or
> tightening the valve drop this to a more safe psi, like 12psi or so?

Sure, but you need a manual bleeder valve or a remote manual bleeder as well as
a good boost guage.

-- Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 10:05:53 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: adjusting the manual bleeder valve...
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:07:34 -0700
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The stock wastegate actuator requires just under 7 psi air pressure to begin
to open the wastegate.

Opening the bleeder valve bleeds off pressure in the wastegate actuator line
therefore requiring more pressure in the line to open the wastegate.  This
allows more boost to build up before the wastegate is opened.  Closing the
valve directs more pressure to the actuators allowing them to open sooner
therefore limiting boost.


Regards,

Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Cameron
> Brandon
> Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 10:56 AM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Team3S: adjusting the manual bleeder valve...
>
>
> Can you effectively 'adjust' the valve to increase or decrease
> psi, sort of
> like a real boost controller by tightening it or loosening it?
> For example,
> 15psi or over would be bad with no other mods, so does loosening or
> tightening the valve drop this to a more safe psi, like 12psi or so?
>
> Cam
>
>
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 10:05:54 1998
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 10:04:47 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <middaugh@omega.gat.com>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: pre-cat replacement
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Would it be possible to manufacture a downpipe that replaces the pre-cats or includes
high-flow pre-cats?  Is there a reason that the precats have to be seperate units from
the downpipe?  This seems like something a lot of folks would be interested in.  We
could probably get dozen orders if someone were willing to manufacture it.

R.G. wrote:

> > I already emailed HRC Hahn Racecraft as they are producing the "Eliminator
> > Downpipe/O2 housings" but I haven't got any response yet.
>

--

Ken Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 10:16:15 1998
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?= <vr4@bahnhof.se>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: pre-cat replacement
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 19:15:53 +0100
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Ferrita in sweden can make them but someone have to send them their original precats as a "mould".

Ferrita makes very high quality stainless steel exhausts.

If you want to c one off Ferritas systems then look att this page
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/4846/rs2.html
Stainless steel with carbon fiber mufflers  Niiiiice !

They think that they can make them for ~250$ (front and rear)

BTW I wonder if anyone of us will be able to outperform that Audi

/Mikael

-----Original Message-----
From: R.G. [SMTP:robby@swissonline.ch]
Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 6:47 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: pre-cat replacement

> I already emailed HRC Hahn Racecraft as they are producing the "Eliminator
> Downpipe/O2 housings" but I haven't got any response yet.

Ok, still no reply from them :( Maybe I have to wait after SEMA....

Any other company out there that is able to produce such a replacement set ?

Regards,
Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
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AABSRTogAAAAAAMADTT9NwAAI8o=

------ =_NextPart_000_01BE09B9.E125C060--

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 10:18:14 1998
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From: "Cameron Brandon" <cbran@dsinw.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: adjusting the manual bleeder valve...
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:19:32 -0800
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>The stock wastegate actuator requires just under 7 psi air pressure to
begin
>to open the wastegate.

Does the wastegate actuator have anything to do with the BOV?  It sounds
like they work together, or they are one in the same, or i am completely
off-base...

Cameron


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 11:52:06 1998
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?= <vr4@bahnhof.se>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: G-tech and clutch
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 20:50:21 +0100
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Hi all,

Inspired by Curt and Oscar I went out and tested some 0-100km/h with my G-tech meter ( that is slightly more that 0-60 (62,5mph))

My best before was 4.63 with the Blitz set to 1.25 bar

Today I made several runs under 4.5 and the best was 4.41with only 1.03 bar.

With the old clutch I started at 5000rpm and dumped the clutch and that resulted in almost no wheel spin at all. First I started with dumping the new clutch at 4500rpm's and the rear end broke out sidways (alot) and all wheels spun thru whole 1:st gear. Hmm no good but the time indicated 4.8 and that is good. I had a hard time to figure out the best technique to start but ended up doing 4.41 by slipping the clutch (it doesn't slip that much :) at slightly under 4000rpm's.
I feel that I can do even better times when I have practiced more with this clutch.

For all dragracers: test this kind of clutch disc, I think you will like it.

Have anyone with bigger turbos and VPC and stuff tested a Gtech?? If so what 0-60 times did you get? And what 1/4 mile times?

/Mikael (for more info http://www.bahnhof.se/~vr4)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 11:56:51 1998
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From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
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Cc: "'Andrew K'" <kyokushin@earthlink.net>, "'Cameron'" <cbran@dsinw.com>,
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Subject: Team3S: ATR pre-cats (TT only)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:51:23 -0800
Organization: ADP Dealer Services
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Howdy folks...

I just got off the phone with a salesperson at ATR. Told her what we're looking for. She went to talk with
one of their engineers who designed their downpipe, test pipe, catback exhaust (all 3" SS). He said they had
originally tested the exhaust without pre-cats (but with 3" from the downpipe back) and found no measurable
improvement. I said it was difficult to believe the smaller diameter pipe and cat wouldn't create some
restriction. She agreed. I pointed out there also are some VR4 owners who have gutted the pre-cats and found
a difference (placebo effect?). She said she would have one of the engineers go over their records and review
the data. She said, even if it didn't appear to be a performance improvement, but we had a demand for 15 or
more sets, they would probably quote on it.

Next news when she calls back.

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 12:28:15 1998
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Has anyone come up for a fix to the engine compartment hood heat shield?
Aftermarket?  The aluminium sheild was obviously designed a bit too
short and the aluminium coating on the hood insulation gets scabby
looking from heat after awhile...particularly above the Plenum where the
aluminum sheild SHOULD HAVE reached. Is there a spray or paint available
for the insulation? A better designed aluminum piece? Or is new aluminum
coated insulation the only fix (it'll happen again and again).??

Darcy

Still mainstream on my BC instalation...plumbing's done but I still have
rat's nest wiring to tackle tonight.

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 13:27:03 1998
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 22:17:35 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: adjusting the manual bleeder valve...
References: <00eb01be09b2$01624a40$f2368da2@wau-mis14>
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> Does the wastegate actuator have anything to do with the BOV?  It sounds
> like they work together, or they are one in the same, or i am completely
> off-base...

Not really ... but, yes but only a little :)

The wastegate actuator lines are fed by pressure BEFORE the TB (with or without
a BC). When pressure rises in the feeding line, boost will be reduced by opening
the wastegates. The BOV actuator line is fed from the manifold AFTER the TB. If
boost is reduced somewhat "slowly" the BOV will not open much. But when you run
up the rpms with high boost in the manifold and quickly close the TB (shifting)
the manifold pressure quickly changes to a vacuum. This change activates the BOV
and it releases the pressure from the tubes BEFORE the TB. Therefore also any
pressure is gone that feeds the wastegate actuators :)

The BOV does good things to the turbos as closing the TB means the turbine is
not fed by the exhaust a lot anymore and due to the closed TB there is still
pressure in the Y-pipe that then causes backpressure to the ICs and finally the
compressor wheels of the turbos. This causes much stress to them. The BOV
relieves this pressure to the ambient (or intake tubing with stock BOV).

Take care,
Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 13:27:08 1998
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 22:25:54 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: pre-cat replacement
References: <01BE09B9.E11E1F40@pm2-34.bahnhof.se>
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> Ferrita in sweden can make them but someone have to send them their original
> precats as a "mould".

I remeber that we spoke together about this. If I had known that the new exhaust
manifold take sooooo long to here I would have sent them up. I'll let you know
next week as it would be easier to send mine from here and not Bob's from the
States ;-) But I still think they should be able to look into the car as space
is limited there.

> They think that they can make them for ~250$ (front and rear)

This sounds pretty good, does it ?

> BTW I wonder if anyone of us will be able to outperform that Audi

Depends on what Audi :) The new 270hp 2.7litre TwinTurbo AWD A4 is damn fast and
a few hundreds kilos lighter than ours :(

Cheers, Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 14:02:01 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: adjusting the manual bleeder valve...
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:03:45 -0700
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The BOV (blow-off vlave, compressor by-pass valve) is a totally separate
deal from the wastegate(s).

The wastegate on the VR4 stock turbos is an integral wastegate.  It is a
small flapper valve in the turbine (exhaust side - the one that get reallly
hot) housing.  It is normally closed.  When closed the exhaust gases have
nowhere to go except across the turbine which makes it spin.  When the
wastegate is open exhaust gases are allowed to escape into the exhaust
system thereby bypassing the turbine.  All this happens on the exhaust side
of the engine.

The BOV lives on the intake side.  Depending upon design, it is intended to
relieve intake pressure above a certain pressure and/or open when a
transition from positive pressure (boost) to vaccuum is detected.  This
relives pressure in the intake tract when the throttle plate is closed to
relieve the pressure the compressor wheel would otherwise feel when the
compressed air suddenly has nowhere to go.  This extends bearing life, is
easier on the compressor vanes and sounds cool.  It can also improve
spool-up time between shifts since the compressor is not working against
already pressurized air.


Regards,

Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Cameron
> Brandon
> Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 11:20 AM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: adjusting the manual bleeder valve...
>
>
>
>
> >The stock wastegate actuator requires just under 7 psi air pressure to
> begin
> >to open the wastegate.
>
> Does the wastegate actuator have anything to do with the BOV?  It sounds
> like they work together, or they are one in the same, or i am completely
> off-base...
>
> Cameron
>
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 14:11:10 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: G-tech and clutch
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:12:54 -0700
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I managed a 3.7 (measured via G-tech) once without launching it too hard.  I
actually think it might do even better with practice.  I have not since
reproduced that time due to the fact that the clutch was failing badly.  I
won't quote exact quarter mile times as measured by the G-tech but I know
the car will do high 11s based on G-Tech numbers I have observed.  I will
wait for an official dragstrip run before I post any 1320' times.

I too have a new clutch to test once I get the car back on the road.  I hope
it works as well as yours seems to.

The fact that your clutch is slippable is a good thing.  That can not only
improve launches but reduce strain on the driveline otherwise fealt with
dumping techniques.  Many clutches won't tolerate slipping however.  If
yours holds up then maybe there is a market for it over here.


Regards,

Barry


Original message from Mikael Åkesson:

<snip>

> With the old clutch I started at 5000rpm and dumped the clutch
> and that resulted in almost no wheel spin at all. First I started
> with dumping the new clutch at 4500rpm's and the rear end broke
> out sidways (alot) and all wheels spun thru whole 1:st gear. Hmm
> no good but the time indicated 4.8 and that is good. I had a hard
> time to figure out the best technique to start but ended up doing
> 4.41 by slipping the clutch (it doesn't slip that much :) at
> slightly under 4000rpm's.
> I feel that I can do even better times when I have practiced more
> with this clutch.
>
> For all dragracers: test this kind of clutch disc, I think you
> will like it.
>
> Have anyone with bigger turbos and VPC and stuff tested a Gtech??
> If so what 0-60 times did you get? And what 1/4 mile times?

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 14:13:50 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Heat Shield
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:15:35 -0700
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I have never compared a 91-93 back-to-back with my 94, but it seems like the
heat shield on my 94 does cover the plenum.  Might be worth a look.

Either that or I am comepletely out to lunch, which is entirely possible.

There are heat shield products out there in the aftermakret in various
forms.  Many come in sheets.  Try Jeg's and Summit for starters.


Regards,

Barry

> Has anyone come up for a fix to the engine compartment hood heat shield?
> Aftermarket?  The aluminium sheild was obviously designed a bit too
> short and the aluminium coating on the hood insulation gets scabby
> looking from heat after awhile...particularly above the Plenum where the
> aluminum sheild SHOULD HAVE reached. Is there a spray or paint available
> for the insulation? A better designed aluminum piece? Or is new aluminum
> coated insulation the only fix (it'll happen again and again).??
>
> Darcy

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 19:13:22 1998
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Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 19:11:29 -0800
Organization: West Coast Ethnographics
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Yo Team;

There are whole bunch more of you on board now, than there was a month
ago at this time. Back then there were 7 of us, gathered loosely
together in the darkness by Bob Forrest, (the guy in the cowboy hat)
after we had left the old world and fled to the new. In those fledgling
days, having a powerful quorum like we have now, was almost
unthinkable...but Bob, along with the rest of us who championed the idea
(notably Rich, Chris, Jim, Roger, Mikael...) decided to step up to the
plate and get a new group going.

Beginnings are intangible things, springing from indefinable sources, so
I am picking today as the loose anniversary of that beginning a month
ago, and taking time to say job well done to Bob, who saved a
disintegration from happening...and to those knowledgeable
Stealthacholics previously mentioned. Since those beginnings, some
pretty big Stealth names have casually shown up here (won't embarrass
you with fan fare) and who contribute regularly to a network that runs
itself. (BTW you can be banned if you get out of line...and it will
happen fast if you have a mouth). My TT doesn't have anywhere near the
mods that some of you guys have, nor will it ever...but without the help
of the likes of Barry King (e-mail sounds like bejing) I would still be
floundering installing my BC.  Roger, Jim, Rich (haven't heard from you
in awhile Rich) have all brought me up to speed with my vehicle...and
when I see postings asking for advice on  the purchase of  a new BC...I
see my younger self of not long ago  wandering into the Avenue of Giants
(you gotta see the Redwoods if you haven't) and am well pleased that
life let me share some toughts with you guys...and that you shared some
with me.

Good job Bob, Rich, Roger, Chris, Jim, Mikael...and a special thanks to
Barry, all who epitomize the generous exchange of of spirit and
information which this group is known for. No intent to gloss over Jack,
Bob, Todd, etc etc etc...gosh so many of you that I'm a bit
embarrassed...but needed to say it for those who just think it.
Bob...good job!!!!!

Darcy

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 19:23:00 1998
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Least my last posting insult some with references to only Stealths and
owners thereof, (Stealthacholics, etc) when it is obvious that Mitsu is
the dominant twin....accept my humble apologies, and understand that I
was merely referring to you and your cars in your more Stealthy modes  ;
)

Darc

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 19:57:07 1998
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From: "Fein, Edward" <fein@strategy.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Pre-Cat Info
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 22:56:49 -0500
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Speaking as someone who has actually had BOTH pre-cats off his car within
the past month, I can tell you the following:

- The front pre-cat is trivial to get out, and a decent muffler shop should
be able to fabricate a replacement for less than $125. (Dave B. might use
superior materials, though - e.g. stainless steel).

The rear pre-cat:
- In the back, the pre-cat and O2 sensor housing are the SAME unit. They are
separate in the front. You cannot replace the rear pre-cat without replacing
the O2 housing.
- The rear O2 housing / pre-cat is an _extremely_ complicated piece of pipe.
The O2 housing mates directly to the turbo, with a 'B' or '8' - shaped
gasket. In addition, it contains fitments for the EGR pipe and O2 sensor.
Add to that no less than _five_ heat shield mounting brackets, and an
additional lower mounting bolt, and you've got a unit that's near-impossible
to replicate.
- There's no space back there. Sorry Arty, but you'll never fit a 3" pipe in
that space without moving the firewall, power steering hardlines, left front
drive shaft, or some combination of the three. It is that tight.
- As a consequence of the lack of space, test fitting a pipe is
near-impossible. But test-fitting is vital to designing a pipe that actually
fits. In other words, labor alone would push development costs of a rear
pipe into the thousands of dollars...
- Removing the rear pre-cat is a *bitch*. You have to unbolt one of the
power steering hardlines and move it just to get enough clearance. (Which is
why a power steering leak prevented me from making the Quickening drag strip
meet...) Putting the thing back in is worse - that back heat shield has some
bolts that you have to thread blind at a strange angle. Trust me,
LotoBoost's method of gutting the pre-cat while it is still on the car would
be a LOT easier than removing it to gut it.

Take it from someone who's been there... gut the rear cat on the car, and
don't bother trying to replace it.

   -Ed
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 19:57:17 1998
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From: "Fein, Edward" <fein@strategy.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Air to water intercooler
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 22:56:50 -0500
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>Relocate the battery mount the IC in its place and shorten all the
>intercooler plumbing by several meters.

For anyone interested in this... I'm in the process of relocating my
batterry (very long project - given my current work schedule I'm looking at
a few more months).

There is a HUGE amount of space if you pull the batterry, mounting plate,
and front windshield washer resevoir. Plenty of room to work with. And no,
I'm not sure what I'll use it for on mine.

  -Ed
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 20:18:25 1998
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From: "Fein, Edward" <fein@strategy.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: ATR pre-cats (TT only)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 23:18:03 -0500
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----- Chris wrote: -------------
I pointed out there also are some VR4 owners who have gutted the pre-cats
and found
a difference (placebo effect?). She said she would have one of the engineers
go over their records and review
the data. She said, even if it didn't appear to be a performance
improvement, but we had a demand for 15 or
more sets, they would probably quote on it.
---------------------------------


With gutted precats, the turbos spool up quicker - quite noticably so. Upon
gutting the precats, you'll have to readjust all the settings on your boost
controller, to allow it to adapt to the new boost spool-up curve.

Underhood temps also drop noticably. That will lead to cooler intake temps
for a couple more horses at least. And the turbos also seem to be able to
produce / hold a little more pressure with that restriction removed.

Not that I'm admitting to any mods on my car of questionable legality... ;-)


But I'd say they'd have no problems finding 15 buyers near-instantly.

   -Ed
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 22:01:23 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: ATR pre-cats (TT only)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 23:03:07 -0700
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Good news Chris.  They didn't say "no".  :)

I personally am not concerned about heat shield mounts (as was pointed out
in a previous post) since wrap could just as effectively be used in that
location.  Just so long as the piece mates with the turbo properly and
adequate are is given for w/g exhaust and O2 sensor fitment, all should be
good.


Regards,

Barry

<snip>

> She said, even if it didn't appear to be a performance
> improvement, but we had a demand for 15 or
> more sets, they would probably quote on it.
>
> Next news when she calls back.
>
> Looking forward...Chris

<snip>

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov  6 23:56:16 1998
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Barry E. King wrote:
>
> I managed a 3.7 (measured via G-tech) once without launching it too hard.  I
> actually think it might do even better with practice.  I have not since
> reproduced that time due to the fact that the clutch was failing badly.  I
> won't quote exact quarter mile times as measured by the G-tech but I know
> the car will do high 11s based on G-Tech numbers I have observed.  I will
> wait for an official dragstrip run before I post any 1320' times.

Barry,
Excellent 0-60 times!  I can only imagine what shaving
a second off of my best time might feel like.  But why not post
your G-Tech quarter mile figures?  I would be most interested
to see them.  Many folks (like myself) will not visit a
dragstrip and have only G-Tech readings on which to base
comparisons.  If you are worried that folks will confuse the
G-Tech times and speeds with actual drag stip times and speeds
(the times should be very similar and the G-Tech speeds will
be faster since it is an absolute speed at the end of the run
compared with an average speed over the last stretch of the
track where you are still accelerating), you can avoid this
by making sure that you indicate how you obtained the figures.
Thanx.
-Jim
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews

*** 3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov  7 03:47:27 1998
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From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Pre-Cat Info
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Thanks a lot to Ed who sent a very good description on the pre-cats :)

If anyone have gutted cats, are you still able to pass the emission tests ? My
theory is saying yes but I'm not 100% sure. We have to do the test every two
years in Switzerland and it must be within the tolerances given at the first
time the car was measured :(

> - The rear O2 housing / pre-cat is an _extremely_ complicated piece of pipe.
> The O2 housing mates directly to the turbo, with a 'B' or '8' - shaped
> gasket.

Huh ? Mine had the very same gasket as the front one. Also I thought to remember
that there are two pieces on my european model. Maybe another difference between
EU and US. What year is your car ? To be sure I'll recheck the parts on Monday
as the car is still at Mitsu.

> - There's no space back there. Sorry Arty, but you'll never fit a 3" pipe in
> that space without moving the firewall, power steering hardlines, left front
> drive shaft, or some combination of the three. It is that tight.

Very true but a 2" should work :)

> Take it from someone who's been there... gut the rear cat on the car, and
> don't bother trying to replace it.

We had to remove the transaxle and the oil pan to get onto the parts (engine was
always in the car during the rebuild) Removing the precat was easily then.

Cheers,
Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov  7 06:37:42 1998
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From: Bob Fontana <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Pre-Cat Info
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 09:37:09 -0500
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Hi,

Don't lose any of that pre-cat material - save it!  Hehehe.

The whole purpose of the pre-cats as I understand it is for
the material to get red-hot and burn off the excess fuel
that exists when the mixture is rich during warmup.  Excess
fuel in the exhaust will damage your main cat, eventually
causing the rotten egg smell.  So, no pre-cats requires an
off-road test pipe.

My car passes emissions without the pre-cats.  I install
the main cat and switch the VPC to the stock injector
program and make it idle super lean before I start up the
car.  Then I run it super hard on the way there.  The lean
VPC setting to raises the CO level a bit but brings the HC
to well within specs, all without damaging the main cat.

-Bob (off-road use only) Fontana

----------
From: R.G.[SMTP:robby@swissonline.ch]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 6:46 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Pre-Cat Info

Thanks a lot to Ed who sent a very good description on the 
pre-cats :)

If anyone have gutted cats, are you still able to pass the
emission tests ? My
theory is saying yes but I'm not 100% sure. We have to do
the test every two
years in Switzerland and it must be within the tolerances
given at the first
time the car was measured :(

>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov  7 09:13:17 1998
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
From: Brian <bcdmad@concentric.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: G-tech and clutch
In-Reply-To: <000101be09d2$9a2a5400$0500a8c0@beast.kingdom.com>
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I just put in a new clutch this week also.  It's a RPS plate with a Broward
disk.  I don't know if I can slip this clutch or not.  It could prove to be
difficult.  Bob F.  can you slip this clutch at all?

At 03:12 PM 11/6/98 -0700, you wrote:
>I managed a 3.7 (measured via G-tech) once without launching it too hard.  I
>actually think it might do even better with practice.  I have not since
>reproduced that time due to the fact that the clutch was failing badly.  I
>won't quote exact quarter mile times as measured by the G-tech but I know
>the car will do high 11s based on G-Tech numbers I have observed.  I will
>wait for an official dragstrip run before I post any 1320' times.
>
>I too have a new clutch to test once I get the car back on the road.  I hope
>it works as well as yours seems to.
>
>The fact that your clutch is slippable is a good thing.  That can not only
>improve launches but reduce strain on the driveline otherwise fealt with
>dumping techniques.  Many clutches won't tolerate slipping however.  If
>yours holds up then maybe there is a market for it over here.
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Barry
>
>
>Original message from Mikael Åkesson:
>
><snip>
>
>> With the old clutch I started at 5000rpm and dumped the clutch
>> and that resulted in almost no wheel spin at all. First I started
>> with dumping the new clutch at 4500rpm's and the rear end broke
>> out sidways (alot) and all wheels spun thru whole 1:st gear. Hmm
>> no good but the time indicated 4.8 and that is good. I had a hard
>> time to figure out the best technique to start but ended up doing
>> 4.41 by slipping the clutch (it doesn't slip that much :) at
>> slightly under 4000rpm's.
>> I feel that I can do even better times when I have practiced more
>> with this clutch.
>>
>> For all dragracers: test this kind of clutch disc, I think you
>> will like it.
>>
>> Have anyone with bigger turbos and VPC and stuff tested a Gtech??
>> If so what 0-60 times did you get? And what 1/4 mile times?
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
>
93 VR-4
# 0007
Tampa/Orlando FL

"He who laughs last ... thinks slowest"

______________________________________
Email Brian_Danley@parsons.com
bcdmad@concentric.net

Homepage http://www.concentric.net/~bcdmad
______________________________________
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov  7 09:20:30 1998
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Subject: Team3S: Salvage 93 VR-4 wanted
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Has anyone seen a stripped rolling 93 VR-4 chassis (no Eng., tranny or
interior - but with wheels) in a salvage yard someplace? And do you recall
what they were asking for it?
Arty 91 VR-4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov  7 09:21:22 1998
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Ed, unless they new Precat pipes can be made with at least a 3" size I'd see
no reason to purchase. Mine have been cleanly gutted. I guess there is no
alternative route to fit a 3". What about when Trust sells those 20 G headers
with the new turbo mounts...What the heck do they do with the routing. The
plumbing must be substantially larger?
Arty 91 VR-4

In a message dated 11/7/98 3:57:35 AM !!!First Boot!!!, fein@strategy.com
writes:

<< replicate.
- There's no space back there. Sorry Arty, but you'll never fit a 3" pipe in
that space without moving the firewall, power steering hardlines, left front
drive shaft, or some combination of the three. It is that tight.
- As a consequence of the lack of space, test fitting a pipe is
near-impossible. >>
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov  7 10:06:53 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Pre-Cat Info
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 11:08:42 -0700
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Arty,

Just curious, why do you want 3" pre-cat replacements (or downpipe runners
for that matter)?

Personally I think 3" is excessive.  I haven't done all of the math to
support what I think the right downpipe and exhaust diameter is for the
length we are dealing with, but "bigger is better" without tons of caveats
is a myth, plain and simple.


Regards,

Barry

> Ed, unless they new Precat pipes can be made with at least a 3"
> size I'd see no reason to purchase. Mine have been cleanly gutted. I guess
there is no
> alternative route to fit a 3". What about when Trust sells those
> 20 G headers with the new turbo mounts...What the heck do they do
> with the routing. The plumbing must be substantially larger?
> Arty 91 VR-4

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov  7 10:20:08 1998
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I'm just getting ready for larger turbos. I don't want to end up doing
something twice.
Actually, the gutted precats are working great on my 15G setup. When I change
to headers or a new manifold for the larger turbos I figure I'll need larger
plumbing to expel the increased flow.

In a message dated 11/7/98 6:08:39 PM !!!First Boot!!!, beking@home.com
writes:

<<
Arty,

Just curious, why do you want 3" pre-cat replacements (or downpipe runners
for that matter)?

Personally I think 3" is excessive.  I haven't done all of the math to
support what I think the right downpipe and exhaust diameter is for the
length we are dealing with, but "bigger is better" without tons of caveats
is a myth, plain and simple.


Regards,

Barry
  >>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov  7 11:11:23 1998
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From: Bob Fontana <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: G-tech and clutch
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 14:10:50 -0500
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The Broward disk holds up well against slippage.  Mine
didn't slip until it became contaminated with oil from my
rear main seal.

-Bob
----------
From: Brian[SMTP:bcdmad@concentric.net]
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 1998 12:08 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: G-tech and clutch

I just put in a new clutch this week also.  It's a RPS
plate with a Broward
disk.  I don't know if I can slip this clutch or not.  It
could prove to be
difficult.  Bob F.  can you slip this clutch at all?


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov  7 14:07:52 1998
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To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Pre-Cat Info
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---------- R.G. wrote: ------------
> - The rear O2 housing / pre-cat is an _extremely_ complicated piece of
pipe.
> The O2 housing mates directly to the turbo, with a 'B' or '8' - shaped
> gasket.

Huh ? Mine had the very same gasket as the front one. Also I thought to
remember
that there are two pieces on my european model. Maybe another difference
between
EU and US. What year is your car ? To be sure I'll recheck the parts on
Monday
as the car is still at Mitsu.

> - There's no space back there. Sorry Arty, but you'll never fit a 3" pipe
in
> that space without moving the firewall, power steering hardlines, left
front
> drive shaft, or some combination of the three. It is that tight.

Very true but a 2" should work :)
-------------------------------------

I misspoke. The Outline of the gasket looks like a "B" or an "8", but
there's no bar accross the center... It would have to be identical to the
one on the front turbo, since the turbo exhaust outlets are the same shape.
The problem is that the O2 housing pipe must have an _identical_ shape...

The stock pipe is about 2.5", actually, and should be quite sufficient.
However, a 3" pipe won't fit between the power steering lines and exhaust
manifold - or at least there won't be enough room for you to reattach the
power steering hardline after installing the pipe. The bottom end mounting
the 3" pipe also won't fit between the drive shaft and footwell (unless you
get creative). Not to mention that everyone here has a downpipe with a 2.5"
flange, and you'd have to switch that to 3" as well.

Also, the 3" pipe backwards through where the cat (or test pipe) is only
flows as well as two 2.5" pipes. So there's no point going to 3" pre-cat
pipes unless you upgrade to 3.5" or 4" pipe from there back. This is based
on the "flow is proportional to the fourth power of diameter" theory which
Jack T quoted from his fluid dynamics physics classes...

   -Ed



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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov  7 15:03:47 1998
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  Hi Guys,
Can someone please explain how to tune the BLITZ DSBC? I got mine with
japanese instructions and have absolutley
no clue how to set it.
Thanks in advance,
Max '92vr4
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov  7 16:07:56 1998
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From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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Hey Max,

I assume you already installed so I start here. There is no explanation in the
english manual for the tune-in procedure. These are the main things you have to
know :

Modes : Ratio 1-4, Manual (not used without MAP Analyzer), OFF, Warn, Scramble
Ratio : The % of the possible boost of the system
Gain  : Nobody knows for sure, but it has to do with spooling up the turbos
Warn  : Built-in boost-warning and -limiter (reducing Ratio)
Scramble : Increase or reduce Ratio for a specific time when the Warn level is
reached

There's no direct dial-in as each car act different.

At first, set the limiter by turning the Mode knob until the display turns red
and WARN blinks. Adjust the boost level for the limiter by turning the Volume
knob. Dial it in to 1.05 bars for a start. Then push Volume to switch to the
Ratio reducement. Turn Volume to get -5 (i.e. reduces Ratio by 5 when hitting
1.05 bars). Limiter is set now.

Then go to one of the Ratio settings (1,2,3,4) by turning Mode. Push Volume
several times until you get the current Ratio level (10,20,etc.). Push and hold
Mode until all 4 settings (and M) start blinking. Now turn Volume to dial in the
GAIN at about 20 (conservative). Push Mode to store the level.

Now push the Mode until one of the Ratio settings starts blinking. Again turn
Volume to set Ratio of this channel to 40. Push Mode again to store the level.

Your done for the beginning :) You have now G20/R40 W1.05/-5 (no scramble set)
Try out how this works and increase the GAIN then at first. Also you may set all
4 Ratio channels to 40,42,44,46 (or more) to check out the behaivour with one
Gain and different Ratios. Increasing the Gain will help to get a better
response but also causes more overboost. My setting is G42/R50 W1.05/-2 (I have
13Gs) and I'm getting short overboost to 1.1bar when shifting and then stays on
1.05 bars up to the top. Your settings may be showing lower Gain numbers as your
smaller turbos spool up quicker.

For the display, push Volume to get the peak boost, current boost, or settings.
When in PEAK boost pushing Mode clears the peak value and stores the actual one
as peak.

Scramble boost allows you to increase or decrease the Ratio by aspecific amount
(Px) for a specific time (Cx) when the limiter is hit. Scramble can be set by
turning Mode until Px or Cx appears (blinking L). Push Volume until you get the
Px display. Now turn Volume for the desired Ratio in- or decrease. Push Volume
again to get the Cx display and turn the volume to get the time in seconds. Try
this out when you are familiar with the rest as it adds the functionality to the
limter as well as replaces it :)

Hope this helps ;-) and ..... never forget to set the WARN with a reducement of
the Ratio level !

Cheer, Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov  7 19:00:54 1998
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Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 21:56:01 -0500
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
From: Brian <bcdmad@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: BLITZ English manual
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Call Chien at Nexus.  He can fax them to you in English.

At 06:03 PM 11/7/98 EST, you wrote:
>  Hi Guys,
>Can someone please explain how to tune the BLITZ DSBC? I got mine with
>japanese instructions and have absolutley
>no clue how to set it.
>Thanks in advance,
>Max '92vr4
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
>
93 VR-4
# 0007
Tampa/Orlando FL

"He who laughs last ... thinks slowest"

______________________________________
Email Brian_Danley@parsons.com
bcdmad@concentric.net

Homepage http://www.concentric.net/~bcdmad
______________________________________
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov  7 19:15:44 1998
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
From: Brian <bcdmad@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: BLITZ English manual
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Great instructions RG.  Setting the ratio channels will help alot at the
track with stock turbos. As the old tread stated that at high RPM's
5500-7000 you start to loose boost.  If you set them fairly close you can
switch on the fly and maintain a great boost preasure (going from 43 to 45
or something). Be sure to have a aftermarket boost controler, ( I found
that the Blitz is very accurate but just in case) and be sure that you
don't overboost. Go and do small changes as ratio's and gain together can
make a big diffrence when changed. best to set the gain and just play with
the ratio until you feel comfy. Once you feel you can "contol" the DSBC
well and get it "dialed in" then go and reduce the ratio and increase the
gain ( reduce the ratio more that the increase in gain) and see what the
optimum effects are.  You'll fine a point where you just gotta leave the
gain alone :)

>Also you may set all
>4 Ratio channels to 40,42,44,46 (or more) to check out the behaivour with one
>Gain and different Ratios. Increasing the Gain will help to get a better
>response but also causes more overboost. My setting is G42/R50 W1.05/-2 (I
have
>13Gs) and I'm getting short overboost to 1.1bar when shifting and then
stays on
>1.05 bars up to the top. Your settings may be showing lower Gain numbers
as your
>smaller turbos spool up quicker.
>

93 VR-4
# 0007
Tampa/Orlando FL

"He who laughs last ... thinks slowest"

______________________________________
Email Brian_Danley@parsons.com
bcdmad@concentric.net

Homepage http://www.concentric.net/~bcdmad
______________________________________
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov  8 03:02:39 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Air to water intercooler
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>
> A friend of mine used to pack his inter cooler with dry ice for drag racing.
> Another interesting idea is the same thing the air racers use called a spray
> bar that sprays a mist over the coolers to add efficiency. Looking for an
> added boost for a few pennies?

I don't think dry ice works very well in the October 1998 issue of Turbo there was an
article about this.  Check page 122 and I quote:
    "Despite its -70 degree temperature, dry ice is a cooling myth.  Dry ice emits CO2
and when water comes in contact with the ice it actually comes in contact with the CO2
which offers surprising little cooling power."

And some other important facts:

    "Air-to-liquid units offer better cooling capacity in a smaller size."

    "Converting an air-to-air core to an air-to-liquid intercooler is not advised
because the fin separation difference of the air-to-air core compromises its performance
in  a liquid application."

    This article also had an interesting comparison of a Turbonetics ball-bearing turbo
vs. a conventional bearing (what ever that is)  turbo.  On the Supra they tested this
on, the ball-bearing turbo pushed 11.4 more horsepower.  So if you are upgrading, this
sounds like a good option.  Per the article "they are worth one size on the compressor
wheel."

Mike C.
0018
'95 Stealth RT TT

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov  8 08:41:29 1998
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Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 11:43:19 -0500
From: "Theiss, Charles" <charles.theiss@lmco.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: G-tech and clutch
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
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My current best with the G-Tech is 4.1 0-60.

> ----------
> From: Mikael Åkesson[SMTP:vr4@bahnhof.se]
> Reply To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 2:50 PM
> To: 'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'
> Subject: Team3S: G-tech and clutch
>
> Hi all,
>
> Inspired by Curt and Oscar I went out and tested some 0-100km/h with my
> G-tech meter ( that is slightly more that 0-60 (62,5mph))
>
> My best before was 4.63 with the Blitz set to 1.25 bar
>
> Today I made several runs under 4.5 and the best was 4.41with only 1.03
> bar.
>
> With the old clutch I started at 5000rpm and dumped the clutch and that
> resulted in almost no wheel spin at all. First I started with dumping the
> new clutch at 4500rpm's and the rear end broke out sidways (alot) and all
> wheels spun thru whole 1:st gear. Hmm no good but the time indicated 4.8
> and that is good. I had a hard time to figure out the best technique to
> start but ended up doing 4.41 by slipping the clutch (it doesn't slip that
> much :) at slightly under 4000rpm's.
> I feel that I can do even better times when I have practiced more with
> this clutch.
>
> For all dragracers: test this kind of clutch disc, I think you will like
> it.
>
> Have anyone with bigger turbos and VPC and stuff tested a Gtech?? If so
> what 0-60 times did you get? And what 1/4 mile times?
>
> /Mikael (for more info http://www.bahnhof.se/~vr4)
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov  8 08:50:20 1998
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I've just read the November 98 issue of Turbo Magazine, wherein they are
touting Steve Saleen's "The Saleen Mustang." Although a nice toy, with its
beefed up V8 Vortch producing (Dyno numbers) 495HP & 490 lbs/ft of torque. It
quotes "Saleen boasts a 0-60 time of 4.6 seconds & a 1/4 mile time of 12.70 at
122 mph." Turbo Mag did not even get those numbers running only 0-60 at 5.46
and the 1/4 in 13.44 at 116 mph. Why a car like this gets a lot of raves and
our cars get very little coverage is beyond me. A stock VR-4 with an air
filter can beat this thing. My 91 VR-4 with 115,000 miles on her is a full 2
seconds faster. I wish these magazines would open their eyes.

Saleen with the Vortech       My modified 91 VR-4
0-60      4.6 to 5.4               about 3 seconds
1/4 mile 12.7 to 13.44           11.41
get out & walk                      by by.

Arty 91 VR-4
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov  8 09:48:35 1998
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From: "Ron-a-roid" <rtetetet@email.msn.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Air to water intercooler
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 12:52:11 -0500
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>> A friend of mine used to pack his inter cooler with dry ice for drag
racing.
>> Another interesting idea is the same thing the air racers use called a
spray
>> bar that sprays a mist over the coolers to add efficiency. Looking for an
>> added boost for a few pennies?
>
>I don't think dry ice works very well in the October 1998 issue of Turbo
there was an
>article about this.  Check page 122 and I quote:
>    "Despite its -70 degree temperature, dry ice is a cooling myth.  Dry
ice emits CO2
>and when water comes in contact with the ice it actually comes in contact
with the CO2
>which offers surprising little cooling power."


Curious, I'm not sure they were using dry ice the same way. My friend used
NO water, just two slabs against either side of the aluminum intercooler in
direct contact. Dry ice is near useless for cooling water because, as the
article states, the water is -not- incontact with the solid of the dry ice
but the gasing C02 which transfers very little to the water as it bubbles
off into the atmosphere. Much of the -70 temp is lost in the gasing off and
transfer is minumal at best. Direct contact to the aluminum however, frosted
the intercooler and associated plumbing before starting the engine and kept
it very cold durning runs. He said it was worth .3 - .6 seconds on a hot day
and a noticable torque increase.

>    "Converting an air-to-air core to an air-to-liquid intercooler is not
advised
>because the fin separation difference of the air-to-air core compromises
its performance
>in  a liquid application."


The spray bar method I mentioned is a convection method of cooling used for
oil coolers and intercoolers. A fine mist is sprayed over the coolers and as
it evaporates it reduces the temperature beyond what air only cooling will
provide. The water required is minimal because a small mist is all that is
required rather that total coverage or saturation. Evaporation is the key to
this not the transference of heat to the water. A small electric pump
capable of reasonable pressure, some tubing, spray nozzles and a solenoid
switch to trigger the pump or open a valve. I've seen significant drops in
temperature in oil cooling and I would suspect that the same is applicable
for the intercoolers. Sort of like cool damp night performance increases.

Ron



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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov  8 12:21:00 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: BLITZ English manual
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>

Roger, What a great post, I wish I had this when I was trying to figure out how to work
the Blitz.


>
>
> At first, set the limiter by turning the Mode knob until the display turns red
> and WARN blinks. Adjust the boost level for the limiter by turning the Volume
> knob. Dial it in to 1.05 bars for a start. Then push Volume to switch to the
> Ratio reducement. Turn Volume to get -5 (i.e. reduces Ratio by 5 when hitting
> 1.05 bars). Limiter is set now.

Max,
    If you have stock turbos, I would set this number to -2.  With the smaller turbos
you will get too much fluctuation in the lower RPM range.  My current settings are:

Gain 33
Warn  1.05
Ratio Reducement -2
Ration  45

This gives me a peak of 16 psi with a constant of 14-15 psi up to 5500 RPM, then it
slowly drops to 12.5 psi.  If you have a 1st gen, your numbers will probably be a lot
different.  A second gen. will probably be similar.

Mike C.
0018
'95 Stealth RT TT



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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov  8 20:52:22 1998
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From: "Fein, Edward" <fein@strategy.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Cats, Trannys, and Magnets
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 23:52:03 -0500
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Did some work on the car today... noticed a few interesting things:

1) Bob Fontana mentioned that the purpose of the pre-cats may be to protect
the main cat from unburned gasoline. Well, 1300 miles after gutting the
pre-cats, with a stock main cat, I'm getting a faint, odd smell from my car.
Might be rotten eggs - in which case I'll be upgrading to that ATR downpipe
earlier than expected... (we'll see if the smell gets worse,  or at least
strong enough to really smell).

2) Someone (Barry King?) suggested running a magnet through your old tranny
fluid to look for metal shavings in it. Well, it turns out that on my '94,
the transmission drain plug has a magnetic post in the center of it.
Evidently the purpose of this post is to collect the metal shavings from
inside the transmission. But you can look for bits of metal on that post in
the plug.

Speaking of which, I had a lot of small metal particles attached to that
post - which is why I noticed it is magnetic. It's probably just normal
wear, but just in case it's related to my car not wanting to go into first
gear - how do I get a six-speed 1-2 synchro assembly nowadays? Or is there
anyone out there who's replaced their 2nd gear synchro from a 1-2 kit, and
still has the 1st gear one lying around? (six-speed only) I may be needing
one next year.

3) On netiquette (since people on this list seem very concerned over such
things) - if, as in this email, I have two (now three) completely unrelated
and relatively minor points to discuss, is is better to send one email
(thereby possibly starting two divergent threads with the same subject
line), or to break the message into separate messages (thereby putting an
extra mail into everyone's Inbox)?

   -Ed
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov  8 22:58:10 1998
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Trannys (Synchro Replacement), and Netiquette...
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:59:29 -0800
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-----Original Message-----From: Fein, Edward <fein@strategy.com>
|Did some work on the car today... noticed a few interesting things:
-------snip--------
|2) Someone (Barry King?) suggested running a magnet through your old tranny
|fluid to look for metal shavings in it. Well, it turns out that on my '94,
|the transmission drain plug has a magnetic post in the center of it.
--------snip-------
|gear - how do I get a six-speed 1-2 synchro assembly nowadays? Or is there
|anyone out there who's replaced their 2nd gear synchro from a 1-2 kit, and
|still has the 1st gear one lying around? (six-speed only) I may be needing
|one next year.


JackT is the man to get in touch with on that...

|3) On netiquette (since people on this list seem very concerned over such
|things) - if, as in this email, I have two (now three) completely unrelated
|and relatively minor points to discuss, is is better to send one email
|(thereby possibly starting two divergent threads with the same subject
|line), or to break the message into separate messages (thereby putting an
|extra mail into everyone's Inbox)?


Seems to me that whoever replies to a 3-way post would re-start the thread
with the piece they want to respond to...  Logical, and keeps it all clear
for the next guy.  Then again, separate posts might be better for the
"internet impaired"...  How's that for a non-answer?  :-)


Forrest



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov  8 23:10:50 1998
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Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 02:14:59 -0800
From: John Christian <ie886@po.cwru.edu>
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Subject: Team3S: No Boost
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Hi,

Yes, no boost.  Both the Autometer and the in-dash boost gauges show
only vacuum 20 to 0.
  No Pressure even at WOT.

At Road Atlanta, this weekend there was a black 911 catching me in the
corners. I wanted to put some distance between us so I down shifted into
2nd for turn 7 and hammered it.  Shifted into 3rd and ran to 6000+ with
boost only dropping to 11 psi near red line.  Shifted into 4th and
looked behind and saw the Porsche farther back.[Not as far back as he
should have been]

  BUT I had blown smoke at him too.  After that there was no more BOOST.

I hung a left under the bridge and pitted immediately.  No fluid leaks.
No hoses missing, cracked, loose, etc.  There is some oil in the Y-pipe
--- less in the tube farthest from the engine; & more in the tube
closest.  All vacuum hose seem to be in place.  TT still runs, but NO
ZIP.

I drove the TT over to Charlotte that evening, checking the oil level
frequently.  But no noticible drop in oil level.  In fact I checked it
after getting home to Pittsburgh and its perhaps down 1/16 to 1/8 inch
on the dipstick.

Really missed the boost on the drive home.  Never realized how much
power one uses just to maintain highway speeds. This is the first time I
had to downshift to keep up with traffic.  On some of the hills, I had
to downshift to 3rd to stay at 70MPH.

The track has a quiet time so I replaced the custom downpipe/exhaust
system with the stock components.  The only other mods are a K&N filter
and a manual boost controller (the pressure regulator type).

Since we have twin torbos,  Isn't it strange I lost boost from BOTH??

As far as I know the whole turbo/wastegate/blowoff system works on
vacuum.
Is there an electrical system component I can check???  I had to jump
start the TT at the track before the event started. Then the battery
died completely on Saturday morning.  I was getting the feeling that my
troubles would never end.

How can I check the turbo(s)??

Any suggestions???  Thanks in advance for your help.

--
JCZoooM  93 TT 12.46@109Mph '94Brakes  4 warranty Getrags
  If Getrag replaced call Chrysler 800 992-1997 & register complaint
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538 VR4's Mitsu at 800
222-0037
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov  9 00:56:15 1998
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Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 09:54:18 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: No Boost
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John,

Sorry to hear that you had black days :(

Your problem sounds of having a problem in the vacuum lines that control the
wastegates or the wastegates themselfes. But it is somewhat strange because the
wg actuators are driven by pressure and this means there must be more than 0 psi
to operate them. IMHO opinion, check the lines and the wastegate actuators if
they are functioning properly. If the wastegates are always open then you'll not
having any boost but the car is still running.

Another problem could be the stock BOV. It could be that it is stuck open and
relieves any pressure back to the intake. On mine the tube to the BOV pooped off
once but the car then died due to the big leak on the intake. Sorry, I can't
tell you how to inspect the stock BOV for proper working :(

My input is somewhat small but I hope others g

> There is some oil in the Y-pipe

On mine I had some MORE oil in the y-pipe (I have pics if you need them). We
checked the turbos last week and found no problem with them :) But I had one
piston with a broken ring land and two others who broke on the lower area :(
This caused an increase in pressure in the crankcase and forced the oil to the
intake through the crankcase ventilation. To go the save way, check the
compression on the front back as you can reach them easily. If you see any lower
number the rear one would be worser.

> But no noticible drop in oil level.  In fact I checked it
> after getting home to Pittsburgh and its perhaps down 1/16 to 1/8 inch
> on the dipstick.

Mine showed also somewhat like normal oil consumption. But how does it look when
idleing ? Any blue/black smoke then ? How's the quality of idleing ?

> Since we have twin torbos,  Isn't it strange I lost boost from BOTH??

I doubt you lost power from the turbos and I think your problem is elsewhere. I
lost 100 Nm tourque and about 50hp due to the bad engine but boost was still up
to 1.05bars.

> As far as I know the whole turbo/wastegate/blowoff system works on
> vacuum. Is there an electrical system component I can check???

The only electrical component is the stock wastegate actuator valve. But if it
is stuck and always closed your car would still make somewhat about 0.3bars or
5psi of boost. It it would be stuck open then boost would be the max it can
flow.

> Then the battery died completely on Saturday morning.

Then this sounds like you're having a problem with your belt. Has your battery
died or was it drained ? Have you checked if it is geeting charged ?

Again, I doubt that your turbos are gone. When my ECU jumped into the emergency
program I had Zero, Null boost and I was not able getting over 3500 or so. I had
no check engine light and was able to drive home. After a few minutes the system
then healed itselfs and I got all my beloved boost back. As your battery was low
then I guess this resetted your ECU and therefore it maybe takes some time until
it runs fine again. IMHO, check the charging of the battery first by measuring
the voltage at the battery (13-14V when running). Then check if the wastegates
work properly. You can do this by taking the bleed out and attaching a pump to
the feeding lines. You can easily see how the front one works. Then check the
compression of the front bank and if you see low number it's time to check the
rear ones too. At this time you can also check your plugs.

Hope this helps a little
Good luck, Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov  9 08:34:28 1998
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Message-ID: <01BE0BBB.D33E06C0.cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: ATR Pre-Cat update
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 08:34:53 -0800
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Ed...

Thanks for the excellent description of the difficulties in designing the rear pre-cat. It explains why I got
a "no go" from ATR. One of their engineers called back late Friday and politely shared that, while there
could be some marginal flow & hp gain from replacing them, the complexity of the project would necessitate
FAR more energy and $$$ than ATR is willing to invest.

I think we're back to Robby for feedback from Europe (or back to the drill and chisel).

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4

-----Original Message-----
From: Fein, Edward [SMTP:fein@strategy.com]
Sent: Friday, November 06, 1998 7:57 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Pre-Cat Info

Speaking as someone who has actually had BOTH pre-cats off his car within the past month, I can tell you the
following:
<MAJOR snip>

Take it from someone who's been there... gut the rear cat on the car, and don't bother trying to replace it.

   -Ed

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov  9 08:41:28 1998
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Message-ID: <01BE0BBC.D106E600.cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: Team3S netiquette
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 08:41:58 -0800
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Ed...

Personally (and as one of the Team3S founding brothers), I'd recommend separate messages. Why? Because I'm a
STRONG supporter of using the subject line for filtering purposes (either visual or electronic). Also, I'm
able to reply to each one separately without as much snipping and renaming the subject line (OK, so I'm lazy
as well).  :-)

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4

-----Original Message-----
From: Fein, Edward [SMTP:fein@strategy.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 1998 8:52 PM
To: 'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'
Subject: Team3S: Cats, Trannys, and Magnets

<snip>

3) On netiquette (since people on this list seem very concerned over such
things) - if, as in this email, I have two (now three) completely unrelated
and relatively minor points to discuss, is is better to send one email
(thereby possibly starting two divergent threads with the same subject
line), or to break the message into separate messages (thereby putting an
extra mail into everyone's Inbox)?

   -Ed

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov  9 08:46:17 1998
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Message-ID: <01BE0BBD.7CDDFCC0.cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'Team3S'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: 1997 SL 4sale
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 08:46:44 -0800
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Howdy folks...

My one pitch for a friend:

1997 3000GT SL. Green. 7300 miles. Mint condition. $23,250 (below book). Reason for sale...just married,
starting a family, needs yuppie truck (yech). Tualatin (Portland metro area), Oregon.

E-mail me privately if you want his phone number and/or more information.

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov  9 17:26:55 1998
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Does anyone in the know, know if there is much difference (if any)
between the different injector cleaners ( fuel additives) which are
available, and the best (again if any).  If they are at all like the oil
supplements, then the Slick 50 and upper market products are likely not
worth the bucks. Prices range from $3-25 here with the aforementioned at
the upper limit....STP near the basement.

Darc

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov  9 18:36:18 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: injector cleaners
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 19:38:23 -0700
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Many have had good success with Techron.  I have used it on a few different
EFI engines and it does the trick without much fuss.  There are likely
others that are equally as good.


Regards,

Barry

> Does anyone in the know, know if there is much difference (if any)
> between the different injector cleaners ( fuel additives) which are
> available, and the best (again if any).  If they are at all like the oil
> supplements, then the Slick 50 and upper market products are likely not
> worth the bucks. Prices range from $3-25 here with the aforementioned at
> the upper limit....STP near the basement.
>
> Darc

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov  9 19:35:02 1998
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Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:34:47 -0500
From: "Steven A. File" <sfile@usa.net>
To: "Team 3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>,
        "Starnet" <stealth@starnet.net>
Subject: Team3S: Firestone Firehawk 275/40R17 Z250 Tires
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:35:25 -0600
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I want to thank Barry King and Ed Fein (definitely the list wheel/tire
experts) for their outstanding advice on buying Firestone Firehawk 275/40R17
SZ50 tires with 17-inch wheels (Epic Assassins 17"x7-1/2"). I cannot believe
the difference in handling with my NA--totally awesome tires--the handling
now approaches my TT!!   8-))   The surprising part is that the ride is also
noticeably smoother than the stock Yoko 225/55x16s!

I had always attributed the considerable handling differences between the
two cars to AWS/AWD vs. FWD than the tires and wheel size.  WRONG! It is
clearly apparent that these tires have much  better handling characteristics
than the stock Yokahamas that come on both cars (225/55x16 A-022As on the NA
and the 245/40x18 A028s on the TT) in cornering and dramatically less
wandering! (Probably somewhat attributable to the extra width and shorter
sidewall.) They also cost less than the Yokos.

I got the tires and wheels from National Wheel in Tennessee (Tom at
http://www.customwheel.com or (888) 266-5177) for $1985 including mounting,
high speed balancing (using Hunter Engineering equipment), hub centrics,
Gorilla locking lugs and freight.  You can look at the tires on the
Bridgestone-Firestone web site at
http://www.bridgestone-usa.com/products_java.htm (click on Firestone then
click on SZ50). As Ed Fein has stated in a previous post, these tires have a
very  interesting characteristic in as that they have a shoulder that
extends out a 1/4" which helps protect the wheels. (I will definitely put
them on my teenage daughters' Eclipse GSX to help protect their polished
wheels.)

This may be the wrong time of the year for you Northerners putting on snow
tires, but I live in the Florida panhandle where it snows only about once
every 20 years!  <BG>  8)  I almost can't wait to do tires on the VR-4 . . .
well maybe not since the Z250s do not come in 18 inch.   8(   Oh well, maybe
the stock alloy 16-inchers will have to go back on the NA and the Assassins
on the TT . . . or maybe Bridgestone Potenza S-02 Pole Positions 18-inchers
at $275 per tire (ouch) . . .

Steve File
mailto:sfile@usa.net
Weekday Toy: '98 Mitsubishi 3000 GT, SOHC: "The Beep-Beep" (No longer pure
stock)
Weekend Toy: '97 Mitsubishi 3000 GT, VR-4, AWD, AWS, TT: "The Turbo
Beep-Beep"
Both Solano Black Pearl
Daughters' Toy: '97 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX, Magenta Grey Pearl: "The Gray
Ghost"

"Nothing big ever came from being small."

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BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
N:File;Steven;A.
FN:Steven A. File
ORG:Thomson Newspapers d/b/a Alabama Strategic Marketing =
Group;Administration
TITLE:Vice President, Creative Services & Technology
NOTE;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:Certified Novell Engineer--a/k/a "The =
File Bandit" of Commodore computer fam=3D
e=3D0D=3D0AVice President, Creative Services & Technology; Plant =
Manager, Headla=3D
nd Printing Facility (Sheetfed and Web Printing); Thomson Newspapers, =
Alabam=3D
a Strategic Marketing Group, Southern Alabama and Northwest =
Florida.=3D0D=3D0AFi=3D
le Consulting Media: Home of File Bandit Networks: "Effective Networks =
That =3D
Mean Business"=3D0D=3D0AMicrosoft First Tier Beta Tester: "Chicago", =
Windows '95=3D
(1992); "Memphis", Windows '98 (1995); "Cairo", Windows NT Server 5.0 =
(1997=3D
); Office 2,000 (1998).=3D0D=3D0AWeekday Toy: '98 Mitsubishi 3000 GT, =
SOHC, Sola=3D
no Black Pearl: "The Beep-Beep"=3D0D=3D0AWeekend Toy: '97 Mitsubishi =
3000 GT, VR=3D
-4, AWD, AWS, TT, Solano Black Pearl: "The Turbo Beep-Beep"=3D0D=3D0A'97 =
Mitsubi=3D
shi Eclipse GSX, Magenta Grey Pearl: "The Gray Ghost"
TEL;WORK;VOICE:(334) 792-3141
TEL;WORK;VOICE:(850) 693-3326
TEL;CELL;VOICE:(850) 526-9282
TEL;WORK;FAX:(334) 712-7992
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States of America
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302=3D0D=3D0AUnited States of America
URL:
URL:http://www.alabamanow.com
ROLE:Computers & Printing
EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:sfile@usa.net
REV:19981104T005717Z
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For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov  9 19:49:20 1998
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Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 21:46:12 -0600
From: Jeff Crabtree <wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com>
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To: "stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>,
        "stealth@starnet.net" <stealth@starnet.net>
CC: Bob Forrest <bf@bobforrest.com>
Subject: Team3S: SHIRTS! Update(11-09(was HUGE ANNOUNCEMENT)
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--------------6539B7CA48CEC1113CFEAD85
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Hey guys,

    I have more info on the embroidered denim shirts plan.  First of
all, I have attached BOB FORREST'S logo design that is the final design
for the merchandise.  This is the color correct, proper scale version
that will appear on the merchandise.  Thanks to Bob for providing me
with the correct version of the logo, the last one I posted was a
quickie that I did up while I was waiting for the right one.  If you
would like more info on the logo itself, please e-mail Bob
Forrest(bf@bobforrest.com) as it his his design.

    Now,  I have pricing information on the shirts.  The shirts I want
to use for the logo are THREE RIVERS brand, light blue, denim shirts.  I
have one of these shirts that has the logo from the TV station that I
work at on it. It has lasted me a good two years now under working
conditions(I'm an engineer so I do a little rolling around in it)and it
still looks new.  It's warm enough to wear in the winter but still
comfortable in the summer.

    The pricing is a little confusing so I'll give you the worst case
scenario.  IF we only ordered the shirts ONE AT A TIME, the pricing
would be as follows.

Small, Medium, Large, Extra Large:  $21.80
2 X-Large                                        $24.90
3X-Large                                         $27.40

    These Prices DON'T include tax.  So figure that in.  I still don't
have EXACT pricing info on the embroidery work yet, but I've been given
the estimate of $4.00 per shirt.  This puts us just about in the
ballpark of the $30 mark that I was shooting for.  I'll work out how
shipping will be taken care of once I start taking orders.

REMEMBER:  If you have any questions or comments about this situation,
please E-mail me directly(wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com) and use the subject
line "shirts" so that my e-mail filter can help me keep track of all the
mail.

We're even closer.

--
-Jeff Crabtree
   '91 Stealth R/T Turbo
      '93 Jeep YJ Wrangler Sport
         St. Louis, MO


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 10 00:02:40 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Firestone Firehawk 275/40R17 Z250 Tires
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Yes, this is also the "best" tire on the 4th gen Camaro/Firebird list !

Unfortunately, it is not available in any size in Switzerland (also not in
Germany). I called Bridgestone/Firestone and they told me that the sidewall
stability of them do not pass the european standard norms. Maybe the
gouvernments only protect the european tire manufacturers (Dunlop, Pirelly,
Michelin,...) The Yokohama SZ-1 are the cheapest performance tires and I only
paid $500 for a set 255/40-17. But they aren't the best ones. The SP8000 was
definitely better as well as the Goodyear F1 but cost was about $300 per tires
here ... this is ouch !

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 10 00:20:15 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Firestone Firehawk 275/40R17 Z250 Tires
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 01:22:24 -0700
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I am very curious as to what these sidewall stability standards entail.

I know based on my experience that the sidewalls on these tires do not allow
rollover beyond the tread.  Previous tires I have used would allow rollover
beyond the tread, that is ONTO the sidewall.  I run the tires at 31/29 psi
on the street and live for 60 mph 90 degree turns -- they do not rollover.
I know that the GSC and the XGTZ I have used in the past both allowed roll
over onto the sidewall resulting in compromised cornering stability.

Any details as to these standards Roger?  Maybe it is one of those political
deals.  Maybe sidewall stability is defined such that it has nothing to do
with sidewall flexibility which allows rollover.  *shrug*  I find it curious
that the SZ50 has such stiff sidewalls yet maintains a reasonably ride
quality.

In any case, the SZ50 blows away the GSC and XGTZ hands down in any
practical situation on the VR4.  I can't comment on snow performance -- I
don't see a lot of that here in the desert. ;)


Regards,

Barry

> Yes, this is also the "best" tire on the 4th gen Camaro/Firebird list !
>
> Unfortunately, it is not available in any size in Switzerland (also not in
> Germany). I called Bridgestone/Firestone and they told me that
> the sidewall
> stability of them do not pass the european standard norms. Maybe the
> gouvernments only protect the european tire manufacturers
> (Dunlop, Pirelly,
> Michelin,...) The Yokohama SZ-1 are the cheapest performance
> tires and I only
> paid $500 for a set 255/40-17. But they aren't the best ones. The
> SP8000 was
> definitely better as well as the Goodyear F1 but cost was about
> $300 per tires
> here ... this is ouch !
>
> -----------------------
> Roger Gerl, Switzerland
> 93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 10 07:20:03 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Firestone Firehawk 275/40R17 Z250 Tires
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Steven A. File wrote:

> I want to thank Barry King and Ed Fein (definitely the list wheel/tire
> experts) for their outstanding advice on buying Firestone Firehawk 275/40R17
> SZ50 tires ....<snip>

It's nice to see such feedback to acknowledge such great guys.

Not that Barry is the only Guru here (another mentioned in the same breath) ...but advice from him is genuine, knowledgeable, and understandable. Consider all advise you get and make up your own mind, but in the case of Barry, pay attention ...it doesn't come much better. As I noted earlier, help from him was indispensable with my BC instalation...when the manufacturer of the same at their help address, may as well have been dead.

Darc

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 10 10:21:00 1998
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From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: Firestone Firehawk Tires
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:21:12 -0800
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Steven...

Thanks for the post. This subject is somewhat like the Boost Controller thread, I believe several people have
tons of experience that can benefit those of us making a decision.

Soooo, my two questions for those of you who are running 18" rims and have experimented with different tires,
what is your favorite and why?

>From my own perspective, I only drive my VR4 on dry streets, so the "all weather" approach of the Dunlop
SP9000s doesn't interest me. From what I've read and researched, the Michelin Pilot MMXs are probably the
best dry pavement tire money can buy, but they're VERY soft and will likely disappear in under 15K miles
which isn't very good for $400/tire. The Firestone lack of wandering and bead to prevent rim dings sounds
great but your comment indicates they're not available in a 18" diameter. I'm leaning towards the Michelin
XGT-Z4, but it sounds like someone (Barry or Ed?) has reason not to recommend them. The reason??? Keep in
mind I'm interested in dry cornering and traction, not wet, and I'd like a treadwear of 200 (or better) if
possible.

Also, has anyone bought aftermarket 18" chromes with a non-factory offset (35mm) that allows 275mm or larger
tires to be mounted? The brand and style? Results?

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven A. File [SMTP:sfile@usa.net]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 7:35 PM
To: Team 3S; Starnet
Subject: Team3S: Firestone Firehawk 275/40R17 Z250 Tires

I want to thank Barry King and Ed Fein (definitely the list wheel/tire
experts) for their outstanding advice on buying Firestone Firehawk 275/40R17
SZ50 tires with 17-inch wheels (Epic Assassins 17"x7-1/2"). I cannot believe
the difference in handling with my NA--totally awesome tires--the handling
now approaches my TT!!   8-))   The surprising part is that the ride is also
noticeably smoother than the stock Yoko 225/55x16s!
<snip>
I almost can't wait to do tires on the VR-4 . . .
well maybe not since the Z250s do not come in 18 inch.   8(   Oh well, maybe
the stock alloy 16-inchers will have to go back on the NA and the Assassins
on the TT . . . or maybe Bridgestone Potenza S-02 Pole Positions 18-inchers
at $275 per tire (ouch) . . .

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 10 10:32:49 1998
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From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: injector cleaners
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:33:02 -0800
Organization: ADP Dealer Services
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Darc...

You know, this is one of those areas in which I wish we could tap into some objective data. I've tried at
least ten injector cleaners over the years, ranging from $2.00 to $15.00 a bottle and can't say I ever felt a
bit of difference. I believe many are methanol based, some have other compounds. I add one every other tank
full or so, based on faith, and a belief that it can't be hurting.  :-)

Where I DO notice a difference is with the octane booster. Perhaps is just a placebo effect, but adding the
"off-road only" Turbo 108 product is noticeably different. No objective numbers, just some more seat of the
pants observation.  :-)

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4

-----Original Message-----
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca [SMTP:wce@bc.sympatico.ca]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 5:25 PM
To: Team3S
Subject: Team3S: injector cleaners

Does anyone in the know, know if there is much difference (if any)
between the different injector cleaners ( fuel additives) which are
available, and the best (again if any).
<snip>

Darc

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 10 10:38:30 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: Firestone Firehawk Tires
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I'd like to add my .02. I have the Mich Pilot sxmxx3 in size 245/40/ZR18 with
about 20,000 miles on them. I've run them at the track and in all types of
weather (no snow yet) and I really like these tires. I can't tell how many
miles they will last but a lot more then 20,000.
Arty 91 VR-4

n a message dated 11/10/98 10:22:36 AM Pacific Standard Time,
cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com writes:

<< Subj: Team3S: RE: Firestone Firehawk Tires
Date: 11/10/98 10:22:36 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com (Chris Winkley)
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Reply-to: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com ('stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com')

Steven...

Thanks for the post. This subject is somewhat like the Boost Controller
thread, I believe several people have
tons of experience that can benefit those of us making a decision.

Soooo, my two questions for those of you who are running 18" rims and have
experimented with different tires,
what is your favorite and why?

From my own perspective, I only drive my VR4 on dry streets, so the "all
weather" approach of the Dunlop
SP9000s doesn't interest me. From what I've read and researched, the Michelin
Pilot MMXs are probably the
best dry pavement tire money can buy, but they're VERY soft and will likely
disappear in under 15K miles
which isn't very good for $400/tire. The Firestone lack of wandering and bead
to prevent rim dings sounds
great but your comment indicates they're not available in a 18" diameter. I'm
leaning towards the Michelin
XGT-Z4, but it sounds like someone (Barry or Ed?) has reason not to recommend
them. The reason??? Keep in
mind I'm interested in dry cornering and traction, not wet, and I'd like a
treadwear of 200 (or better) if
possible.

Also, has anyone bought aftermarket 18" chromes with a non-factory offset
(35mm) that allows 275mm or larger
tires to be mounted? The brand and style? Results?

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven A. File [SMTP:sfile@usa.net]
Sent: Monday, November 09, 1998 7:35 PM
To: Team 3S; Starnet
Subject: Team3S: Firestone Firehawk 275/40R17 Z250 Tires

I want to thank Barry King and Ed Fein (definitely the list wheel/tire
experts) for their outstanding advice on buying Firestone Firehawk 275/40R17
SZ50 tires with 17-inch wheels (Epic Assassins 17"x7-1/2"). I cannot believe
the difference in handling with my NA--totally awesome tires--the handling
now approaches my TT!!   8-))   The surprising part is that the ride is also
noticeably smoother than the stock Yoko 225/55x16s!
<snip>
I almost can't wait to do tires on the VR-4 . . .
well maybe not since the Z250s do not come in 18 inch.   8(   Oh well, maybe
the stock alloy 16-inchers will have to go back on the NA and the Assassins
on the TT . . . or maybe Bridgestone Potenza S-02 Pole Positions 18-inchers
at $275 per tire (ouch) . . .

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

  >>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 10 10:46:05 1998
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From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'Team3S'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: BOV recommendation?
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:46:17 -0800
Organization: ADP Dealer Services
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Howdy folks...

A brief Beastie update. I've received my ATR downpipe and test pipe and have decided to add an aftermarket
BOV as well. I'm a little ahead of "need" as I probably won't upgrade my turbos until the spring, but this is
an easy mod and may help a little with 16psi of boost. I know there's a number of units available. Any
recommendations (and rationale)?

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 10 12:02:05 1998
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?= <vr4@bahnhof.se>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: BOV recommendation?
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:01:40 +0100
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Hi

I have the Blitz BOV and I bought it because I have heard alot of good =
things about it.=20

First, it wont fit if you have the HKS Super mega flow (without VPC).

OK so I constructed a new Y-pipe and mounted the Blitz BOV directly to =
the pipe.

I can't feel any difference what so ever !!! Maybe my stock BOV works =
better than normal. The Blitz have been a total waste of time and money =
but I guess that it will do alot more for the car when I pump up the =
boost with bigger turbos. Actually it doesn't sound that much either. :(

/Mikael http://www.bahnhof.se/~vr4=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Winkley [SMTP:cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 7:46 PM
To: 'Team3S'
Subject: Team3S: BOV recommendation?

Howdy folks...

A brief Beastie update. I've received my ATR downpipe and test pipe and =
have decided to add an aftermarket=20
BOV as well. I'm a little ahead of "need" as I probably won't upgrade my =
turbos until the spring, but this is=20
an easy mod and may help a little with 16psi of boost. I know there's a =
number of units available. Any=20
recommendations (and rationale)?

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is =
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 10 12:13:30 1998
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?= <vr4@bahnhof.se>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: BOV recommendation?
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:13:02 +0100
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One more thing about BOV's

I tested a dumpvalve that a friend of mine used on his Ford Cosworth. =
This dumpvalve cost less than 90$ and works alot better that the Blitz. =
My suggestion to all is to use the "not so cool" dumpvalves instead of =
ultra expensive BOV's from HKS, Greddy, blitz etc...

For an example look at the dump valves on this page: =
http://www.webcon.co.uk/f1/turbo.htm

/Mikael http://www.bahnhof.se/~vr4

-----Original Message-----
From: Mikael =C5kesson [SMTP:vr4@bahnhof.se]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 9:02 PM
To: 'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'
Subject: RE: Team3S: BOV recommendation?

Hi

I have the Blitz BOV and I bought it because I have heard alot of good =
things about it.=20

First, it wont fit if you have the HKS Super mega flow (without VPC).

OK so I constructed a new Y-pipe and mounted the Blitz BOV directly to =
the pipe.

I can't feel any difference what so ever !!! Maybe my stock BOV works =
better than normal. The Blitz have been a total waste of time and money =
but I guess that it will do alot more for the car when I pump up the =
boost with bigger turbos. Actually it doesn't sound that much either. :(

/Mikael http://www.bahnhof.se/~vr4=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Winkley [SMTP:cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 1998 7:46 PM
To: 'Team3S'
Subject: Team3S: BOV recommendation?

Howdy folks...

A brief Beastie update. I've received my ATR downpipe and test pipe and =
have decided to add an aftermarket=20
BOV as well. I'm a little ahead of "need" as I probably won't upgrade my =
turbos until the spring, but this is=20
an easy mod and may help a little with 16psi of boost. I know there's a =
number of units available. Any=20
recommendations (and rationale)?

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is =
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 10 12:27:17 1998
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In a message dated 11/10/98 3:03:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, vr4@bahnhof.se
writes:

<< I can't feel any difference what so ever !!! Maybe my stock BOV works
better than normal. The Blitz have been a total waste of time and money but I
guess that it will do alot more for the car when I pump up the boost with
bigger turbos. Actually it doesn't sound that much either. :(
  >>

Yeah, an upgraded BOV wont give ANY performance gains with stock turbos unless
the stock BOV was broke.  From my experience, the stock BOV is more than up to
the task of holding whatever the stock turbos can through at it.. plus its
pretty larger so it flows sufficiently.  So basically the only gain of an
AMBOV is the neat/loud sound.

But I am courious that you said the BOV doesn't sound much different?  My
Blitz BOV is EXTREMELY loud!

Mike Mahaffey - '94 Stealth tt Best et: 11.6  Best mph: 120.7
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 10 15:04:46 1998
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 00:03:51 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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I run the "old" HKS sequential BOV on my car and it fits very well. Also I have
a late model and never had any problems (other users reported cracking). Thanks
to it I discovered the
engine problem as the white oil steam that came off infront the hood was very
noticeable.

For performance, I felt a little better response in spooling up the 13G but
really only a little. Also, I expected to have lower intake temperature as the
pressure will not released into the intake anymore. But the increased
temperature is maybe negligible. Another theory is, due to our increased boosts,
that with the stock BOV the pressure goes out the MAS and will not be fed
through the turbos. I never heard this on my car with the stock BOV but I
noticed the sound on Jims car with the K&N pretty good. Maybe due to the less
air flow of the 9B compared to the 13G ?

For the dump valves I always thought that they open due to the increased boost
in the feed line and the pressure at the dump plate in the valve (linear). Our
BOVs are working on a differential pressure level and open when a
pressure-to-vacuum situation occurs. I therefore think that the dump valve
Mikael tested was set on high pressure and then openend linear. BTW, setting the
screw on the S-BOV must be a religion. Till today, I haven't found out how to
set it properly. When all the sensors are installed I'll measure the
pressures/vacuums levels and I hope to be able to dial-in everything ...
including the BOV.

For the sound ... I don't like the WHOOOSH. This sounds like a 911 just passed
me at high speed ... and this is very confusing ;-)

Take care,
Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 10 23:46:53 1998
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From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?=" <vr4@bahnhof.se>
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Subject: RE: Team3S: BOV recommendation?
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:45:03 +0100
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From: R.G. <robby@swissonline.ch>
>For the dump valves I always thought that they open due to the increased boost  in the feed line and the pressure at the dump plate in the valve (linear).
>
<SNIP>
I'm not sure about that Roger,

I think that the one I tested was working the same way as our BOV's with a hose connected to the vacume lines. the difference was that the spring wasn't adjustable but they where delivered with 3 different springs. The function of the springs is to controll that the valve doesn't open because of high turbo preasure and they shall be as soft as posible to be able to release more air as fast as possible. If I have understood everything right this is exactly how my Blitz works but it has a screew to tune it with instead of shanging springs.

/Mikael


>BOVs are working on a differential pressure level and open when a
>pressure-to-vacuum situation occurs. I therefore think that the dump valve
>Mikael tested was set on high pressure and then openend linear. BTW, setting the
>screw on the S-BOV must be a religion. Till today, I haven't found out how to
>set it properly. When all the sensors are installed I'll measure the
>pressures/vacuums levels and I hope to be able to dial-in everything ...
>including the BOV.
>
>For the sound ... I don't like the WHOOOSH. This sounds like a 911 just passed
>me at high speed ... and this is very confusing ;-)
>
>Take care,
>Roger
>
>-----------------------
>Roger Gerl, Switzerland
>93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 10 23:52:04 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: BOV recommendation?
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 00:54:29 -0700
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Someone should try out an electronic BOV.  These make so much more sense
than the mechanical solution as the system is totally programmable.  There
are a few available, particularily from a few Australian manufacturers, and
prices seem to be comparable to the Japanese mechanical BOVs.

Short of that, the Zen Motorsports BOV appears to be a far superior design
than any of the current popular BOVs.  The tolerances of the cylinder are
extremely tight making leakage a non-issue at any boost levels liable to be
seen in our cars.


Regards,

Barry

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 10 23:52:25 1998
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From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?=" <vr4@bahnhof.se>
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Subject: RE: Team3S: BOV recommendation?
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Mike Mahaffey wrote:
>But I am courious that you said the BOV doesn't sound much different?  My Blitz BOV is EXTREMELY loud!
>
Hi Mike,

Are you using the Blitz and the stock BOV together as they recomend?? I do that and I think that's why mine doesn't sound. I don't think it has enough air to let out when working together with the stock BOV.

/Mikael


>Mike Mahaffey - '94 Stealth tt Best et: 11.6  Best mph: 120.7
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 11 00:00:49 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: BOV recommendation?
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 01:03:13 -0700
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I have the Blitz SSBOV connected in conjunction with the stock BOV (for now)
and it definitely makes a lot of noise.  I had it this way with the stock
turbos also running at much lower boost pressure than with the 15Gs.

Are you sure you haven't tightened the adjustment so much that it never
blows off?  Are you sure that it is installed properly and that all lines
are tight and unobstructed?  The Blitz is one of the loudest BOVs available.
If it is working, you will hear it.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Mikael Åkesson
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 12:51 AM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: RE: Team3S: BOV recommendation?
>
>
> Mike Mahaffey wrote:
> >But I am courious that you said the BOV doesn't sound much
> different?  My Blitz BOV is EXTREMELY loud!
> >
> Hi Mike,
>
> Are you using the Blitz and the stock BOV together as they
> recomend?? I do that and I think that's why mine doesn't sound. I
> don't think it has enough air to let out when working together
> with the stock BOV.
>
> /Mikael

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 11 02:47:13 1998
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> I think we're back to Robby for feedback from Europe (or back to the drill
>  and chisel).

Ok, I talked with some shops that do such special jobs and all said that the
cost would be excessive compared to the gain. Especially for the rear one. There
is just no space for something bigger :( One came up with the idea of making an
O2 housing the splits into 2 smaller pipes and to route them differently. But
this would only work with different DPs as well.

I tend now to find a wreck (there aren't any around) and to gut the front cats
out as well as to port the O2 housing as good as possible.

Cheers,
Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 11 03:45:37 1998
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Do anyone have any pics of the Precats  (TT)??? I want to send pics to Ferrita so they can have a look at them.

/Mikael

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:31:05 -0800
From: John Christian <ie886@po.cwru.edu>
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To: Stealth-3000GT <stealth-3000GT@list.sirius.com>
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Subject: Team3S: Re: No Boost
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Hi,
[snip]
>Yes, no boost.  Both the Autometer and the in-dash boost gauges show only vacuum 20 to 0.
  No Pressure even at WOT.

>Shifted into 3rd and ran to 6000+ with boost only dropping to 11 psi near red line.
>Shifted into 4th, looked behind and saw the Porsche farther back.  After that there was no more BOOST.

>There is some oil in the Y-pipe
>The only mods are a K&N filter and a manual boost controller(the pressure regulator type).

>Since we have twin torbos,  Isn't it strange I lost boost from BOTH??
>How can I check the turbo(s)??

Thanks Roger Gerl, for your suggestions:

1.  All connections -- vacuum/pressure lines & all hoses are in place
with no cracks or holes.
2.  Wastegate actuators stay in normal(closed) position from vacuum to
+10 psi and begin to open at 10+ psi.  Then start to open with
decreasing pressure.
3.  The BOV allows air flow in the normal(closed) position.  With vacuum
of 16  applied to control line, the valve starts to open and allows air
flow.
4.  Compression values for front bank are:  1...110,  3...120,
5...115    My tester is the rubber stopper type and 32+ years old.  [not
the spark plug screw in type]
5.  Spark plug gap was .035  now is         1...036,  3...037,  5...036
6.  The new battery checks  13.1 volts not running.  When I put the TT
back together I'll check volts when running.

The Stealth manual says the bypass valve should operate at vacuum 16.
It also says to check for "pressure tightness".   Guess mine isn't
tight! 
---> Is my bypass valve preventing BOOST??   Are the TURBOS OKAY??
Neither the Mitsu nor the Dodge dealers have a BOV in inventory.  I
believe in factory  components ie oil filters, plugs, wire, etc.  BUT is
a stock bypass valve best, or should I consider an aftermarket one which
vents to the atsmosphere?   Jack T ....any extra ones laying around??
Is an open one better for Road Courses??    Yes, I know it produces a
unique SOUND.

I'm going to put the TT back together, 'bypass' the bypass valve and see
if I get BOOST back.

--
JCZoooM  93 TT 12.46@109Mph '94Brakes  4 warranty Getrags
  If Getrag replaced call Chrysler 800 992-1997 & register complaint
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538 VR4's Mitsu at 800
222-0037
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 11 09:24:21 1998
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From: "Todd D Shelton" <tds@brightok.net>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: No Boost
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:18:17 -0600
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------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BE0D64.FB6F0400
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John,

I've got a couple of stock BOV's - one is new.
Let me know if you can't find any.

- tds
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
    -----Original Message-----
    From: John Christian <ie886@po.cwru.edu>
    To: Stealth-3000GT <stealth-3000GT@list.sirius.com>
    Cc: Jack T. <xwing@execpc.com>
    Date: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 10:27 AM
    Subject: Team3S: Re: No Boost
   =20
   =20
   =20
    ---> Is my bypass valve preventing BOOST??   Are the TURBOS OKAY??
    Neither the Mitsu nor the Dodge dealers have a BOV in inventory.  I
    believe in factory  components ie oil filters, plugs, wire, etc.  =
BUT is
    a stock bypass valve best, or should I consider an aftermarket one =
which
    vents to the atsmosphere?   Jack T ....any extra ones laying =
around??
    Is an open one better for Road Courses??    Yes, I know it produces =
a
    unique SOUND.


------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BE0D64.FB6F0400
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>John,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I've got a couple of stock BOV's - one is =
new.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Let me know if you can't find any.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>- tds</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>----------------------------------------------------------------=
----------</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>John Christian &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:ie886@po.cwru.edu">ie886@po.cwru.edu</A>&gt;<BR><B>To:=20
    </B>Stealth-3000GT &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:stealth-3000GT@list.sirius.com">stealth-3000GT@list.sirius=
.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>Cc:=20
    </B>Jack T. &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:xwing@execpc.com">xwing@execpc.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Wednesday, November 11, 1998 10:27 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Team3S: =
Re: No=20
    Boost<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR>---&gt; Is my bypass valve preventing=20
    BOOST??&nbsp;&nbsp; Are the TURBOS OKAY??<BR>Neither the Mitsu nor =
the Dodge=20
    dealers have a BOV in inventory.&nbsp; I<BR>believe in factory&nbsp; =

    components ie oil filters, plugs, wire, etc.&nbsp; BUT is<BR>a stock =
bypass=20
    valve best, or should I consider an aftermarket one which<BR>vents =
to the=20
    atsmosphere?&nbsp;&nbsp; Jack T ....any extra ones laying =
around??<BR>Is an=20
    open one better for Road Courses??&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yes, I know it =
produces=20
    a<BR>unique SOUND.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BE0D64.FB6F0400--

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 11 09:40:47 1998
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> 2.  Wastegate actuators stay in normal(closed) position from vacuum to
> +10 psi and begin to open at 10+ psi.  Then start to open with
> decreasing pressure.

Maybe a typo because it then should open more when INCREASING pressure.

> 3.  The BOV allows air flow in the normal(closed) position.  With vacuum
> of 16  applied to control line, the valve starts to open and allows air
> flow.

No, the valve should be closed and should not allow any airflow under ambient or
increased pressure. As you said, it opens around 32-33inHg. During idleing, our
cars read around 45-48 inHg and therefore the valve is open and releases some
pressure to the intake. Your problem can now have two causes :

a) BPV doesn't close enough (damaged, dirty)
b) the vacuum line is not attached to the right location (happend to me once)

> 4.  Compression values for front bank are:  1...110,  3...120,
> 5...115    My tester is the rubber stopper type and 32+ years old.  [not
> the spark plug screw in type]

Well, not new but in the acceptable range with the tester ;-)

> The Stealth manual says the bypass valve should operate at vacuum 16.
> It also says to check for "pressure tightness".   Guess mine isn't
> tight!

The signs point to the BPV as it seems to leak. Once, the hose to the valve
popped off on mine due to a not-mounted clamp (thanks Mr. Mitsu !) The car then
died and I wasn't able to drive. If the BPV is somewhat stuck or doesn't close
good, enough air can flow out to the intake and therefore releases boost. Why
not taking the BPV out and check it ? I sent you pictures how it looks like
closed on the inside. When then blowing air in from the underside, a very little
can go off and around 30 inHg it starts to open. Then releasing vaccum should
close the valve again.

> Are the TURBOS OKAY??

At the moment I can't see a sign why not.

> BUT is a stock bypass valve best, or should I consider an aftermarket one
> which vents to the atsmosphere? Is an open one better for Road Courses??

Just follow the thread here on the list about the BOVs.

Hope this helps,
Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 11 09:56:50 1998
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John:
Plug the BOV hose as you've outlined, to rule that out.  However, a
"catastrophic" or sudden loss of all boost REALLY SCREAMS OUT a LARGE
leak in your pressurized air circuit, somewhere from turbo outlets to
the throttlebody.  I know you are thorough, but I will strongly suggest
you check the 4 hose matings attaching to the front intercoolers HIDDEN
under the front of the car/under the radiator area on passengerside, and
behind headlight underhood aiming downward on driverside.  It is either
the BOV stuck open venting all boost, OR a loose/blownoff/cracked hose,
or a LARGE hole someplace else in pressure circuit.  No way you lost
both turbos.  Even one turbo would show SOME boost.

Hope this helps,
Jack Tertadian

John Christian wrote:
>  no boost; gauges show only vacuum 20 to 0.  No Pressure even WOT.
> >Shifted 3rd, ran 6000+ boost dropping to 11 psi near red line.
> >Shifted 4th,behind saw Porsche farther back.  After, no more BOOST.
> >There is oil in Y-pipe.  mods: K&N, manual boost controller
> >twin turbos, isn't strange lost boost from BOTH?
> >How can I check turbos? Thanks Roger Gerl, for suggestions:
1.  All connections vacuum/pressure lines, hoses in place with no
cracks/holes.
> Is bypass valve preventing BOOST?  TURBOS OKAY?
> going to 'bypass' bypass valve, see if BOOST back.
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 11 12:46:45 1998
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From: "Eric Lotter" <elotter@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Rear end shutter under heavye boost/High RPMS
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Hey all,

I'm trying to debug my sister's new VR-4, a replacement for her totaled
92 ES, (1991, Red with 49k) for some "Post sales" warranty work.

If you could decipher the title, you may know what I am talking about,
but I'll do my best to describe it.

When you accelerate hard, the backend seems to shimmy @ about 4500RPMS
in first through second. This occurs if you start from a stop, or, if
you are moving and "get on it".

It is not on one side of the car or the other, and sometimes feels like
it is coming from the center of the car.

AWD?
Rear Dif?
Thoughts, ideas, concepts? experiences?

Thanks.

Eric

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 11 13:12:55 1998
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          Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:12:49 -0800
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear end shutter under heavye boost/High RPMS
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:15:27 -0700
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Could be early stages of transfer case failure.  Could be worn driveshaft
carrier bearings or an out-of-balance driveshaft.  I mention these two first
because they are both potential problem areas with this car.  I replaced the
driveshaft on my '94 VR4 as it was on the way out.  Although I did not
experience any shuddering it would eventually have caused something similar.

It is possible that the rear-end could cause this shuddering.  The viscous
coupling in the diffs could be shot.

It could also be imbalanced or bent wheels, poor alignment, or any number of
suspension related ills.

That doesn't help much toward resolving the problem but hopefully gives you
areas to investigate.



Barry

> I'm trying to debug my sister's new VR-4, a replacement for her totaled
> 92 ES, (1991, Red with 49k) for some "Post sales" warranty work.

<snip>

> When you accelerate hard, the backend seems to shimmy @ about 4500RPMS
> in first through second. This occurs if you start from a stop, or, if
> you are moving and "get on it".
>
> It is not on one side of the car or the other, and sometimes feels like
> it is coming from the center of the car.
>
> AWD?
> Rear Dif?
> Thoughts, ideas, concepts? experiences?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Eric

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 11 13:39:33 1998
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Eric described his problem as this...


> When you accelerate hard, the backend seems to shimmy @ about 4500RPMS
> in first through second. This occurs if you start from a stop, or, if
> you are moving and "get on it".

Eric..this occurred with my TT on only one occasion, and I found the fix was real simple
after describing it here (simple usually). My wife had used it before me and topped it
up with REGULAR. I dumped in some octane boost and the problem was solved. Hope your
problem is as simple...ie shitty gas!!

Darc

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 11 14:11:07 1998
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From: "Jeffrey Young" <jefyoung@ix.netcom.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: injector cleaners
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:13:15 -0700
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What I did last year when I had the top end torn down is send my injectors
to RC Engineering and had then cleaned and balanced.  They did before and
after flow tests on each injector, and two of them were pretty bad off in
the before column.   Everything was pretty well balanced (flow rates) when
they got done.   Worth the $ I thought.


Jeffrey
92 RT/Turbo
www.omega-sw.com/stealth

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 11 15:12:15 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Rear end shutter under heavye boost/High RPMS
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Eric, have you checked the fluid in the rear diff and or transfer case? I hope
its this easy to fix. Even if the fluid level is correct, the wrong type of
fluid can also do strange things to the AWD system.
Arty 91 VR-4

In a message dated 11/11/98 8:47:28 PM !!!First Boot!!!, elotter@hotmail.com
writes:

<< ubj: Team3S: Rear end shutter under heavye boost/High RPMS
Date: 11/11/98 8:47:28 PM !!!First Boot!!!
From: elotter@hotmail.com (Eric Lotter)
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Reply-to: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com

Hey all,

I'm trying to debug my sister's new VR-4, a replacement for her totaled
92 ES, (1991, Red with 49k) for some "Post sales" warranty work.

If you could decipher the title, you may know what I am talking about,
but I'll do my best to describe it.

When you accelerate hard, the backend seems to shimmy @ about 4500RPMS
in first through second. This occurs if you start from a stop, or, if
you are moving and "get on it".

It is not on one side of the car or the other, and sometimes feels like
it is coming from the center of the car.

AWD?
Rear Dif?
Thoughts, ideas, concepts? experiences?

Thanks.

Eric
  >>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 11 15:50:19 1998
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Hi friends,

To anyone who's interested. I've just uploaded my "Problems/rebuild" page to my
homestead at GeoCities (urgh). You can find it under the first topic on my
3000GT page :

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/3000gt.html

Any comments, suggestions upon my findings are very welcome.

Take care,
Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 11 16:45:19 1998
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:40:21 -0500
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From: Brian <bcdmad@concentric.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: BOV situation
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I have a question:  Under load/boost I hear a hissing sound.  It's not
turbo spool and I don't have any leaks. The only thing I can thing of is..
1. I can hear the air coming out of the wastegates (don't think so but
worth a shot)
2.  My bov is not ajusted tight enough.

I have 13c turbos, ATR Downpipe/exhaust, Blitz DSBC and a Greddy BOV (the
purple one can't remeber if it's type r or s)  When I installed the bov all
I did was unscrew the adjustment and tightend it until it just started to
grab the theads and made it hard to turn by hand (no allen wrench used).
It closes at idel and blows off fine, just wondering if my boost would come
in harder if it where tighter.





At 01:03 AM 11/11/98 -0700, you wrote:
>I have the Blitz SSBOV connected in conjunction with the stock BOV (for now)
>and it definitely makes a lot of noise.  I had it this way with the stock
>turbos also running at much lower boost pressure than with the 15Gs.
>
>Are you sure you haven't tightened the adjustment so much that it never
>blows off?  Are you sure that it is installed properly and that all lines
>are tight and unobstructed?  The Blitz is one of the loudest BOVs available.
>If it is working, you will hear it.
>

93 VR-4
# 0007
Tampa/Orlando FL

"He who laughs last ... thinks slowest"

______________________________________
Email Brian_Danley@parsons.com
bcdmad@concentric.net

Homepage http://www.concentric.net/~bcdmad
______________________________________
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 11 16:47:21 1998
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 19:42:25 -0500
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
From: Brian <bcdmad@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rear end shutter under heavye boost/High RPMS
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could be the carier bearing.  Mine did something kinda like that and had it
replaced under warrenty (after bitching alot).

At 12:46 PM 11/11/98 PST, you wrote:
>Hey all,
>
>I'm trying to debug my sister's new VR-4, a replacement for her totaled
>92 ES, (1991, Red with 49k) for some "Post sales" warranty work.
>
>If you could decipher the title, you may know what I am talking about,
>but I'll do my best to describe it.
>
>When you accelerate hard, the backend seems to shimmy @ about 4500RPMS
>in first through second. This occurs if you start from a stop, or, if
>you are moving and "get on it".
>
>It is not on one side of the car or the other, and sometimes feels like
>it is coming from the center of the car.
>
>AWD?
>Rear Dif?
>Thoughts, ideas, concepts? experiences?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Eric
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
>
93 VR-4
# 0007
Tampa/Orlando FL

"He who laughs last ... thinks slowest"

______________________________________
Email Brian_Danley@parsons.com
bcdmad@concentric.net

Homepage http://www.concentric.net/~bcdmad
______________________________________
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 11 18:54:27 1998
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Re installing a SAVC-R

Big thanks to Jim in Germany, Barry in Scottsdale, and Errin in Seattle,
for the help they afforded me in my recent Super Apexi Boost Controller
installation. Without Barry King's advise on the plumbing and wiring I'd
still be inching along. Jim Matthews provided excellent setup
instructions which  I compared with what Barry calls the Apexi ESP
instructions, which I cross referenced also with Barry's advice on the
same..then made up my own mind ( See below).  Errin Humphrey did a
middle of the night check on the color codes of some wires for me in his
car, so I could get on with reconnecting a couple of wires which were
inadvertently pulled loose...and which Barry also double checked for me
in his car in the midst of his infirminty.  The whole thing went great.
Even Chien at Nexus offered to help with advise, which is a rare
attribute these days, and particularly in this case, as most of you know
I did not purchase there (group purchase). One does not see that sort of
thing often... great guy...nor the first  rate help I received from
these Team 3S members across the planet.

Now if I had chosen Blitz instead of Apexi, I'd likely be mentioning
Switzerland and lauding Roger for his installation assistance...but you
all know how knowledgeable he is if you have followed any of his posts
here. Then there's Chris if I hadn't picked either Apexi or Blitz......

So here is what was offered as advise:

Roger at his rebuild site indicates that over 1.05 bar could be of a
disadvantage (read possibly a rebuild).

Jim echos this notion and advises 1.05 for a max setting in second mode
and 1 bar in the first mode. He advises 70% BADC, which Apexi also notes
in their instructions.

Barry advises more of a conservative setting at 62-64% BADC and believes
70% is possibly overboosting. He also indicates 1 bar, and 1.05-1.1 bar
for the second setting, so advise for bar settings  is pretty much
unanymous.

It's interesting that with the number of rebuilds and Roger's just
updated site on his engine findings with possible causes and solutions,
is giving rise to more conservative suggestions for settings. Any other
advise re settings, appreciated...currently set at the most
conservative.

Darcy

Victoria, B.C.

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 11 20:38:56 1998
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From: "Ron-a-roid" <rtetetet@email.msn.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rear end shutter under heavye boost/High RPMS
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:42:32 -0500
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Try checking the carrier bearings on the drive shaft, u-joints, and rear
end.

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Lotter <elotter@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 11, 1998 3:50 PM
Subject: Team3S: Rear end shutter under heavye boost/High RPMS


>Hey all,
>
>I'm trying to debug my sister's new VR-4, a replacement for her totaled
>92 ES, (1991, Red with 49k) for some "Post sales" warranty work.
>
>If you could decipher the title, you may know what I am talking about,
>but I'll do my best to describe it.
>
>When you accelerate hard, the backend seems to shimmy @ about 4500RPMS
>in first through second. This occurs if you start from a stop, or, if
>you are moving and "get on it".
>
>It is not on one side of the car or the other, and sometimes feels like
>it is coming from the center of the car.
>
>AWD?
>Rear Dif?
>Thoughts, ideas, concepts? experiences?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Eric
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 12 03:39:38 1998
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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 03:39:20 -0800
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
From: Dave Allison <dave@languys.com>
Subject: Team3S: Diag System
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Any new developments on the project below, Roger? I'd love to see something
like this available to 3S tuners!

Good news? Bad news?

Dave Allison


>As promissed, I'm currently developing a diag system for the car. It isn't
>really for our cars as it's only a Microcontroller with some A/D ports
that can
>read voltages and stores the values (10 per second). It has the same
display as
>the TRE MASC but has some more ports for anything else. It is able to read 8
>signals :
>
>- O2 sensor 1
>- O2 sensor 2
>- rpm
>- knock
>- injectors
>- boost controller solenoid
>- intake manifold pressure (with sensor)
>
>Later, I plan to add other ports to read more signals :
>
>- EGT 1 (with sensor)
>- EGT 2 (with sensor)
>- pressure before IC (with sensor)
>- pressure after IC (with sensor)
>- Temp before IC (with sensor)
>- Temp after IC (with sensor)
>- any other temp sensor
>
>The produced data will be collected and then can be transmitted to a PC via RS
>232 (serial port). The PC can also be connected directly to the diag tool to
>have almost unlimited storage. I currently don't know if the display is useful
>as it takes too much time to write figures out and therefore reading
values per
>second would be lowered ! The data can be received by the PC via a simple
>terminal program and then be stored as a text file. It then can be read by
>Excel
>and displayed as graphs. It would be nice to make more out of this but I just
>don't have the time for this project.
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 12 08:53:00 1998
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> To anyone who's interested. I've just uploaded my "Problems/rebuild" page to my
> homestead at GeoCities (urgh). You can find it under the first topic on my
> 3000GT page :
>
> http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/3000gt.html

... and today I added the dyno-sheet to the problems page. It does show how
power was reduced due to the retarded timing and knock.

Cheers,
Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 12 14:57:14 1998
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: RG's rebuild page...; Web Imaging...
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:56:49 -0800
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-----Original Message-----From: R.G. <robby@swissonline.ch>

|> To anyone who's interested. I've just uploaded my "Problems/rebuild" page
to my
|> homestead at GeoCities (urgh). You can find it under the first topic on
my
|> 3000GT page :
|http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/3000gt.html
-----------snip-----------

Great page RG, with lots of information.  Terrific pictures too, but here's
where I stick my 2HP in...  If you "optimize" the same photos at about 70%
quality (medium) instead of 94% quality (high) your page(s) wil load 3 times
faster (pictures are the same size, but file sizes are 1/3 as large)!!!
Anyone on the list that would like me to send them my "Imaging Tips" post I
did a year ago for some of the other S/3k guys, please contact me privately.

Nice job, Roger...!

Forrest


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 12 15:32:17 1998
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Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:32:06 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <middaugh@omega.gat.com>
Organization: General Atomics - Fusion Division
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Subject: Team3S: San Diego gathering/track event
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Finally, a long awaited gathering in San Diego is materializing (at
least two of us are interested ;)).  Folks in Southern California ,
Arizona, and anyone willing to drive a few hours might be interested
too.

On Saturday January 23, 1999, there will be a 1 day "High Performance
Driving" track event in San Diego County at Holtville.  Holtville is 2
hours East of San Diego and I'd guess about 3 hours West of Phoenix.

Current thoughts are to meet for an early breakfast in San Diego, then
caravan to Holtville for some track time.  LA area folks could spend
Friday night in San Diego, drive down to SD early in the morning for
breakfast and/or caravan, or just drive directly to Holtville.

Here is the information I have at this time:
The event has been hosted regularly for the last 5 years by Dave Turner,
http://www.daveturner.com
Cost: $100
Requirements: helmet
Description: "My driving events have just enough structure to keep
things safe.  We
welcome all cars and usually get from 35 to 50. I am in my 5th year of
putting on driving events and have never had an on track incident.
The Holtville track is probably the safest race course in the USA.  It
is
made up of airport runways and has plenty of run-off room. The track is
1.5
miles with 9 turns.
I do have driving instructors available.  There is no tech inspection.
You
are expected to bring  a safe car to the track.   There is no gas at the

track."
This sounds like an informal event, oriented for track time.  No timing,
no competitive
racing, just you and your car and an instructor if you want.  He divides

the cars up into 2 or 3 groups depending on how aggressive you want to
be.  Each group will run about 10 laps each time so you won't overheat
your tires, engine, or brakes.  He said that brakes suffer the most so
you might want to have new front pads and/or bring an extra set.  He
said it is easy to get in 50 laps, and if you try real hard, 150.

I should get more information in December.  I'd like to get some
feedback from folks who might be interested.  Please email me directly
at mailto:kmiddaugh@ixpres.com so we can keep the list traffic to a
minimum.

--

Ken Middaugh
General Atomics
San Diego
(619) 455-4510



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 12 17:21:58 1998
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  Thank you Roger and all who replied. Great instructions.
Couldn't do without it.However there are still few questions but not now.

Thanks very much.
Max, 92VR4


>>Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 01:06:58 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: BLITZ English manual

Hey Max,

I assume you already installed so I start here. There is no explanation in the
english manual for the tune-in procedure. These are the main things you have
to
know .....................................
<<
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 13 03:40:04 1998
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Hey Roger, did you ever get a chance to call Bosch and ask if they sold a Dyno
to anyone here in the USA? I've tracked down every rumor and still can't find
an AWD Dyno anywhere in the USA.
Arty 91 VR-4

In a message dated 11/12/98 4:53:44 PM !!!First Boot!!!, robby@swissonline.ch
writes:

<< ubj: Re: Team3S: Problems / rebuild page up and running
Date: 11/12/98 4:53:44 PM !!!First Boot!!!
From: robby@swissonline.ch (R.G.)
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com

> To anyone who's interested. I've just uploaded my "Problems/rebuild" page
to my
> homestead at GeoCities (urgh). You can find it under the first topic on my
> 3000GT page :
>
> http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/3000gt.html

... and today I added the dyno-sheet to the problems page. It does show how
power was reduced due to the retarded timing and knock.

Cheers,
Roger
  >>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 13 04:45:59 1998
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From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Synchro replacement
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 07:45:48 -0500
Message-ID: <000b01be0f03$89c8a860$0201a8c0@mitspc.securitytechnologies.com>
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Hi all, I just got my new 1->2 synchros installed in my 5-speed Getrag for
only $344.50.  It took the transmission builder about 6 hours to pick his
way through the job but it isn't impossible.  I got it done at A & S
Transmission in Deerfield Beach, FL  (954) 883-8860.  I can't report on the
way the shifts feel yet because the engine and gearbox are still out of the
car.  However, since the synchros are a complete assembly, I am confident
that it's right.

Southern Gear quoted me $500 plus shipping both ways.  They used to pay
shipping one way with the customer paying the other way.  So, friends, it
looks like they are getting more expensive.

-Bob

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 13 04:46:03 1998
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From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Rebuild pics
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 07:45:52 -0500
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Hi, Thanks Roger for a good explanation of your rebuild.  I didn't mind the
extra download time at all.  If you guys want to spend even more time
downloading, go to http://www.gate.net/~mits/rebuild98.html.  This page has
some pretty good pics including some taken a couple weeks ago with the
engine almost ready to go back into the car.  Now that the synchros are
installed in the gearbox, it's time to move forward.

-Bob

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 13 06:18:22 1998
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From: "Todd D Shelton" <tds@brightok.net>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rebuild pics/synchros
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:21:29 -0600
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Bob,

How difficult was the installation of the
synchros and did you do it yourself or
was it performed by a trans shop?
I have synchros at the ready and when
the time comes I'm wondering what to
expect.

- tds

-----------------------------------------------------------
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Bob Fontana <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
    To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
    Date: Friday, November 13, 1998 6:46 AM
    Subject: Team3S: Rebuild pics


    If you guys want to spend even more time
    downloading, go to http://www.gate.net/~mits/rebuild98.html.  This page
has
    some pretty good pics including some taken a couple weeks ago with the
    engine almost ready to go back into the car.  Now that the synchros are
    installed in the gearbox, it's time to move forward.

    -Bob



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 13 06:19:48 1998
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From: "Todd D Shelton" <tds@brightok.net>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Synchro replacement
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:22:54 -0600
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Guess I should have continued
reading - thanks for the synchro
install info Bob.

- tds


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 13 07:30:15 1998
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Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 16:29:12 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Rebuild pics
References: <000c01be0f03$8bfa2e60$0201a8c0@mitspc.securitytechnologies.com>
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> If you guys want to spend even more time
> downloading, go to http://www.gate.net/~mits/rebuild98.html.  This page has
> some pretty good pics including some taken a couple weeks ago with the
> engine almost ready to go back into the car.

Umpf, after visiting Bobs rebuild page I call mine "the mini-smart-rebuild" :)

BTW, how did you manage the crack in the cylinder wall and what had to be
replaced ? Also what brand are the new headers ?? Do you have any close-ups of
them ? (sorry for so many questions)

Cheers,
Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 13 08:08:19 1998
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From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Synchro replacement
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 11:08:10 -0500
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I just returned from the transmission shop with my gearbox.

awdtt <- happy camper

I retrieved the old 1-2 synchro assembly and scanned them directly on my
flatbed.  Surprisingly, they came out well enough to show you the problem
with them.  I uploaded them to my site and they are named:

http://www.gate.net/~mits/98r024.jpg

98r24 shows a full shot of the 2->1 synchro gear.  It is about 10% bigger
than actual size.

http://www.gate.net/~mits/98r025.jpg

98r25 shows a closeup of the inside of the gear in an area that showed the
most wear.  The wear was uneven.  The brass is only a coating.  It is
supposed to be rough to the touch in order to create enough friction to
"grab" the hub that sits inside of it.  There are evenly-spaced grooves as
well.  They serve as oil retainers but also can be used to judge wear.  Here
is where this picture is great -- it shows how the groove is gone and how
the brass material is almost worn away.  No friction at all means no
synchronizing going on here!

-Bob

> How difficult was the installation of the
> synchros and did you do it yourself or
> was it performed by a trans shop?
> I have synchros at the ready and when
> the time comes I'm wondering what to
> expect.
>
> - tds
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 13 08:49:56 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Synchro replacement
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:52:18 -0700
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Cool information Bob.

So this begs the question, what design modifications can be made to reduce
or eliminate this failure point?

I know a guy who works high up at Allied Signal.  He offered in the past to
toss his weight around a bit and have synchros fabricated since they really
are very simple parts to build.

Maybe the problem is not with the actual synchro ring but inadequate oiling
TO the ring.  An M.E. somewhere might be able to evaluate the current design
and suggest alternatives.  Any on the list?


Regards,

Barry

> 98r25 shows a closeup of the inside of the gear in an area that showed the
> most wear.  The wear was uneven.  The brass is only a coating.  It is
> supposed to be rough to the touch in order to create enough friction to
> "grab" the hub that sits inside of it.  There are evenly-spaced grooves as
> well.  They serve as oil retainers but also can be used to judge
> wear.  Here
> is where this picture is great -- it shows how the groove is gone and how
> the brass material is almost worn away.  No friction at all means no
> synchronizing going on here!
>
> -Bob

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 13 09:06:23 1998
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From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Synchro replacement
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:06:09 -0500
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I'm not a ME (but I play one on TV...)

My understanding of synchro rings is that they *can* be over-lubricated,
that is, if the gear oil is too slippery, not enough friction will be
applied.  From the looks of the wear on my synchro gears, that was not the
problem.  I believe my 2->1 gear stems from a particular run where I tried
to downshift at too high of an RPM.  I ended up forcing it in, lest I run
out of track.  I think that when the speed differential between gears is too
high, that the gear gets heated and glazed.  I'd have to think that gear oil
helps keep these parts cool via conduction as well as serving as a
lubricant.

The 1->2 (upshift) gear shows wear, but not to the extent of the 2->1 gear.
Again, I'm shifting at 7450 RPM (or so my tach says) and that seems to be
right at the envelope for a smooth transition to 2nd gear.  Since the torque
is so high at that RPM, the synchros receive the a shock when they are spun
up similar to the clutch-flywheel spin-up from a 7000 RPM launch.  There's
probably some "spinnage" going on there which a normal coating of gear oil
can't protect.

Jack if you are reading this, what's your .02 worth?

-Bob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Barry E. King
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 11:52 AM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Synchro replacement
>
>
> Cool information Bob.
>
> So this begs the question, what design modifications can be made to reduce
> or eliminate this failure point?
>
> I know a guy who works high up at Allied Signal.  He offered in
> the past to
> toss his weight around a bit and have synchros fabricated since
> they really
> are very simple parts to build.
>
> Maybe the problem is not with the actual synchro ring but
> inadequate oiling
> TO the ring.  An M.E. somewhere might be able to evaluate the
> current design
> and suggest alternatives.  Any on the list?
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Barry
>
> > 98r25 shows a closeup of the inside of the gear in an area that
> showed the
> > most wear.  The wear was uneven.  The brass is only a coating.  It is
> > supposed to be rough to the touch in order to create enough friction to
> > "grab" the hub that sits inside of it.  There are evenly-spaced
> grooves as
> > well.  They serve as oil retainers but also can be used to judge
> > wear.  Here
> > is where this picture is great -- it shows how the groove is
> gone and how
> > the brass material is almost worn away.  No friction at all means no
> > synchronizing going on here!
> >
> > -Bob
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 13 09:43:53 1998
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From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rebuild pics (LONG)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:43:44 -0500
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I'll try to explain the cylinder problem with the minimum amount of
bandwidth.  About 2 1/2 years ago, I blew a head gasket and my local
dealership did the repair under warranty.  They also suggested that I let
them replace the rings and bearings since the rings might have been
de-tensioned and the bearings just for general principles.  I said "sure,
why not" since it was free.  They proceeded to do the whole job without
removing the engine.  When I got it back, the bearings all spun at 112 miles
on the odometer.

Now, the dealership was stuck having to do the job over again, but this
time, they had to pay for it themselves.  They needed to replace the crank,
rods and pistons since they couldn't figure out why the bearings all spun.
They also decided to send the block to a machine shop to hone the cylinders
to .020 oversize.  The machine shop, while doing cylinder #2, broke their
honing machine.  They had pull the honing bit out of the cylinder using a
chain hoist.  That ended up putting a .010" deep x .040" wide groove in the
cylinder wall.  The machine shop called Delray Mitsubishi to tell them what
happened and Delray Mitsubishi told them "Don't worry about it -- just give
us the block back."  Needless to say, they didn't tell me about it and they
swore the machine shop to secrecy since, when I called the machine shop
directly to inquire as to what they thought caused the bearings to spin,
they said that the cylinders had been hand-honed and were not perfectly true
round.  The owner went on to say that there was another problem with the
block but he was not at liberty to say what since Delray Mitsubishi was one
of his biggest customers.

This was all in early 1996.  When I finally got my car back in July 1996,
every time the boost went over 15 PSI, oil would leak from everywhere under
the car and it was using one quart of oil every 400 miles.  The crankcase
was being pressurized by combustion gases going through that groove.  My
charge air was always full of oil from vapors being circulated out of the
valve covers and into my intercoolers.

Nobody could find or fix the problem, so, last April I decided to take the
matters into my own hands and find the source of the leak.  Well, I did find
it
as you can see in http://www.gate.net/~mits/98r003.jpg.

Conservatively, I'd have to think that the 20% compression loss on the #2
cylinder was causing me to lose 50 horsepower.  Not to mention the fact that
the octane rating of my fuel was reduced by several points as well heated
due to oil content and the fact that my clutch disk was always coated with
oil.  What this all means is, if I put the motor back together properly and
fix a few other things, that this car will be a rocket like it always should
have been.  I'm estimating sub-11 second timeslips in the coming weeks.

-Bob


> BTW, how did you manage the crack in the cylinder wall and what had to be
> replaced ? Also what brand are the new headers ?? Do you have any
> close-ups of
> them ? (sorry for so many questions)
>
> Cheers,
> Roger

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 13 10:16:58 1998
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Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:16:18 -0600
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Bob Fontana wrote:

> Hi, Thanks Roger for a good explanation of your rebuild.  I didn't mind the
> extra download time at all.  If you guys want to spend even more time
> downloading, go to http://www.gate.net/~mits/rebuild98.html.

Great pics Bob!....Do you think you could come over to my house and do what you did to
your car to mine?  Oh, also...bring your checkbook too!

Good work my freind.  I hope someday,  now that I have another car to drive, I can
accomplish the same thing with mine.

> --

-Jeff Crabtree
   '91 Stealth R/T Turbo
      '93 Jeep YJ Wrangler Sport
          St. Louis, MO


--------------B2CBAA8BBFAC7DBC869CB4EA
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<HTML>
&nbsp;

<P>Bob Fontana wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Hi, Thanks Roger for a good explanation of your rebuild.&nbsp;
I didn't mind the
<BR>extra download time at all.&nbsp; If you guys want to spend even more
time
<BR>downloading, go to <A HREF="http://www.gate.net/~mits/rebuild98.html">http://www.gate.net/~mits/rebuild98.html</A>.</BLOCKQUOTE>
Great pics Bob!....Do you think you could come over to my house and do
what you did to your car to mine?&nbsp; Oh, also...bring<B><I> your</I></B>
checkbook too!

<P>Good work my freind.&nbsp; I hope someday,&nbsp; now that I have another
car to drive, I can accomplish the same thing with mine.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>--</BLOCKQUOTE>
-Jeff Crabtree
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; '91 Stealth R/T Turbo
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; '93 Jeep YJ Wrangler Sport
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; St. Louis, MO
<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>

--------------B2CBAA8BBFAC7DBC869CB4EA--

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 13 11:19:26 1998
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I just wanted to know if any one could help me with a vendor. I am not a
machnic and I don't know the details about cam spec's. I do however have
a manufacture willing to produce upgrade cam's for our vehicles if we
can supply him with enough orders.

Thank's

--
Ricardo Cousar
Voice: (303) 624-0803


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 13 11:39:03 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Upgrade Cams
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:41:28 -0700
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Ricardo,

Are these regrinds or ground from billets?  Optimal cam specs will vary with
other engine parameters and intended use.  This is definitely an area of
interest to me also.


Regards,

Barry

> I just wanted to know if any one could help me with a vendor. I am not a
> machnic and I don't know the details about cam spec's. I do however have
> a manufacture willing to produce upgrade cam's for our vehicles if we
> can supply him with enough orders.
>
> Thank's
>
> --
> Ricardo Cousar

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 13 11:58:46 1998
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> Are these regrinds or ground from billets?
>
> Barry,  these are orginal unfinished cams. The shop will finish the grinding process
> on the cam with the new upgrade spec's. Thanks, Ricardo.

--
Ricardo Cousar

Voice: (303) 624-0803



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 13 12:02:30 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Upgrade Cams
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:04:53 -0700
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Cool.  I know Crower will regrind a cam at $50 USD a stick.

Billets would be better though.

Now to determine specifications...

I have been playing with various profiles using a software model but
experience shows this is not necessarily what works best in the actual
engine.  Otherwise stated the model is incomplete.

What is the approximate cost of the camshafts?  Would they be willing to
keep costs low for a first few test runs until a suitable profile is
determined?


Regards,

Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Ricardo Cousar
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 12:59 PM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Upgrade Cams
>
>
> > Are these regrinds or ground from billets?
> >
> > Barry,  these are orginal unfinished cams. The shop will finish
> the grinding process
> > on the cam with the new upgrade spec's. Thanks, Ricardo.
>
> --
> Ricardo Cousar
>
> Voice: (303) 624-0803
>
>
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 13 12:04:52 1998
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Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:06:05 -0500
From: "Theiss, Charles" <charles.theiss@lmco.com>
Subject: Team3S: Tire pressure
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
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Reply-To: stealth-3000gt

Going to the track.  Would appreciate any advise on tire pressure.  Thanks
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 13 12:24:47 1998
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From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Tire pressure
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:24:37 -0500
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I run 40 PSI all the way around.  Yes, it causes wheelspin, but spinning
lessens the chances of chewing up the splines on your output shaft and other
possible driveline breakages.  In cooler weather (below 60F), you can lower
the pressure to 35 or 36 to achieve the same amount of spin.  Others may
argue that your times will suffer and I agree with them.  The most important
thing, however, is being able to drive it home afterwards.

-Bob (ran 11.47 with 40 PSI and pump gas)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Theiss,
> Charles
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 3:06 PM
> To: 'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'
> Subject: Team3S: Tire pressure
>
>
> Going to the track.  Would appreciate any advise on tire pressure.  Thanks
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 13 12:39:39 1998
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Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:42:08 -0500
From: "Theiss, Charles" <charles.theiss@lmco.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Tire pressure
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
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Reply-To: stealth-3000gt

Thanks as always for the advise Bob.  Since this is my first track
experience I will need all the help I can get.

> ----------
> From: Bob Fontana[SMTP:bfontana@securitytechnologies.com]
> Reply To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 3:24 PM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Tire pressure
>
> I run 40 PSI all the way around.  Yes, it causes wheelspin, but spinning
> lessens the chances of chewing up the splines on your output shaft and
> other
> possible driveline breakages.  In cooler weather (below 60F), you can
> lower
> the pressure to 35 or 36 to achieve the same amount of spin.  Others may
> argue that your times will suffer and I agree with them.  The most
> important
> thing, however, is being able to drive it home afterwards.
>
> -Bob (ran 11.47 with 40 PSI and pump gas)
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> > [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Theiss,
> > Charles
> > Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 3:06 PM
> > To: 'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'
> > Subject: Team3S: Tire pressure
> >
> >
> > Going to the track.  Would appreciate any advise on tire pressure.
> Thanks
> > For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> > http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
> >
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 13 13:42:43 1998
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Message-ID: <004a01be0f4e$d0976100$b598d6ce@jefyoung.ix.netcom.com>
From: "Jeffrey Young" <jefyoung@ix.netcom.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Upgrade Cams
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 14:42:54 -0700
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I thought that Bozz Speed has (or is in the process of producing) an
upgraded cam for our cars.  You may want to check with Henry Yam @ RPM
henryyam@acsu.buffalo.edu ) for more information.


Jeffrey
92 RT/Turbo
www.omega-sw.com/stealth


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 13 13:47:00 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Upgrade Cams
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 14:49:18 -0700
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Bozz does have cams but rumor has it that people aren't happy with them.
They probably work fine if you have thekir GT2835 blowers and everything
else they've done to their car ;)

I know no further details but it is worth investigating.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Jeffrey Young
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 1998 2:43 PM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: Team3S: Upgrade Cams
>
>
> I thought that Bozz Speed has (or is in the process of producing) an
> upgraded cam for our cars.  You may want to check with Henry Yam @ RPM
>  henryyam@acsu.buffalo.edu ) for more information.
>
>
> Jeffrey
> 92 RT/Turbo
> www.omega-sw.com/stealth

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 13 13:47:57 1998
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Barry,  if you don't mind could you send me your phone number so we could conduct a
conference call with the manufacture to work out spec details.The approximate cost of
each raw cam is around 300 dollars. Then you would have to figure in cost production
cost. I estimate the cost should be for a finished tested product will be around 850 a
set. Just my guess. No real figures can be made yet.

Unfortunately,  their will be some upfront cost that the manufacture will have to
explain to you. But, these cost are reasonable. However, some of these cost can be
avoided if you know someone with a camshaft design program.

>
>
> What is the approximate cost of the camshafts?  Would they be willing to
> keep costs low for a first few test runs until a suitable profile is
> determined?
>




For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 13 18:33:00 1998
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From: "GT ALLEY" <thegtalley@email.msn.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Upgrade Cams
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:36:27 -0800
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Upgrade cams are NOT available as of yet. I spoke to Yuki (owner) of
Bozzspeed and he confirmed that he has been thinking about it but there are
some real fundamental issues at hand that need to be dealt with before a
"real" set of cams can be worked on or produced. We have also thought about
making cams, and have the resources to get the billet cam blanks needed but
until the lifter issue is solved we will not go forward. The reason is that
we cannot get in a big enough cam with the profile we would like to see with
the hydraulic lifter set-up. We did some experimentation, but was not all
that happy, so the quest continues until our solid adjustable lifter set
becomes available.


Thanks,
Brian@
The GT ALLEY
3/S Performance Central
-----Original Message-----
From: Ricardo Cousar <rcousar@uswest.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Friday, November 13, 1998 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Upgrade Cams


>Barry,  if you don't mind could you send me your phone number so we could
conduct a
>conference call with the manufacture to work out spec details.The
approximate cost of
>each raw cam is around 300 dollars. Then you would have to figure in cost
production
>cost. I estimate the cost should be for a finished tested product will be
around 850 a
>set. Just my guess. No real figures can be made yet.
>
>Unfortunately,  their will be some upfront cost that the manufacture will
have to
>explain to you. But, these cost are reasonable. However, some of these cost
can be
>avoided if you know someone with a camshaft design program.
>
>>
>>
>> What is the approximate cost of the camshafts?  Would they be willing to
>> keep costs low for a first few test runs until a suitable profile is
>> determined?
>>
>
>
>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov 14 04:13:53 1998
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From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Upgrade Cams
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 07:13:44 -0500
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Hi, does that mean that a solid lifter set is in development?  When do you
expect it to be available?  Any idea of what they will cost?

-Bob

> the hydraulic lifter set-up. We did some experimentation, but was not all
> that happy, so the quest continues until our solid adjustable lifter set
> becomes available.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Brian

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov 14 11:11:38 1998
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From: "GT ALLEY" <thegtalley@email.msn.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Upgrade Cams
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:14:07 -0800
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Yes, the solid lifter design has been finalized and the blueprint has been
drawn...Just need to find a vendor to produce the parts, or possibly we may
purchase the equipment to machine the parts in-house. Expected time frame
will be approx. 2 months, and cost will be approx. (don't hold me to this),
will be $25.00-$30.00 each. No more tick tick tick, and also cams will
become available. Another added benifit for guys who just install the
lifters without cams, they will see a gain in performance due to the
0.30-0.50 of "slop" in the hydraulic lifter will now be gone. Instanty the
cams got bigger by this much.

Thanks,
Brian@
The GT ALLEY
3/S Performance Central
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Fontana <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Saturday, November 14, 1998 4:14 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: Upgrade Cams


>Hi, does that mean that a solid lifter set is in development?  When do you
>expect it to be available?  Any idea of what they will cost?
>
>-Bob
>
>> the hydraulic lifter set-up. We did some experimentation, but was not all
>> that happy, so the quest continues until our solid adjustable lifter set
>> becomes available.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Brian
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov 14 12:48:10 1998
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Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:47:32 +0100
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>
> 0.30-0.50 of "slop" in the hydraulic lifter will now be gone. Instanty the
> cams got bigger by this much.

Is this a misprint or are you saying there is actually a half-inch of "play" in the
lifters.  No wonder they tick.

Thanks,

Mike C.
'95 Stealth RT TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov 14 13:36:16 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Upgrade Cams
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:38:39 -0700
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Obviously a misprint.  The lash would be greater than the lift.  Neat trick.


Barry

> > 0.30-0.50 of "slop" in the hydraulic lifter will now be gone.
> Instanty the
> > cams got bigger by this much.
>
> Is this a misprint or are you saying there is actually a
> half-inch of "play" in the
> lifters.  No wonder they tick.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike C.
> '95 Stealth RT TT

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov 14 15:01:20 1998
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Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 17:56:49 -0500
From: josesini <josesini@engin.umich.edu>
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This could be in mm and not in inches!
:)

Jose

"Barry E. King" wrote:
>
> Obviously a misprint.  The lash would be greater than the lift.  Neat trick.
>
> Barry
>
> > > 0.30-0.50 of "slop" in the hydraulic lifter will now be gone.
> > Instanty the
> > > cams got bigger by this much.
> >
><SNIP>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov 14 15:04:05 1998
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To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Upgrade Cams
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 16:06:28 -0700
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Good point!


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of josesini
> Sent: Saturday, November 14, 1998 3:57 PM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Team3S: Re: Upgrade Cams
>
>
> This could be in mm and not in inches!
> :)
>
> Jose
>
> "Barry E. King" wrote:
> >
> > Obviously a misprint.  The lash would be greater than the lift.
>  Neat trick.
> >
> > Barry
> >
> > > > 0.30-0.50 of "slop" in the hydraulic lifter will now be gone.
> > > Instanty the
> > > > cams got bigger by this much.
> > >
> ><SNIP>

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov 14 16:52:10 1998
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Hi group;

Any chance we, or at least I,  can get an operational understanding from
the more knowledgeable out there, on how the knock sensor works,  and if
it will be of assistance if one has an aftermarket Boost Controller
installed? That's to say...will it work like it is supposed to with a
Blitz BC , Apexi BC, etc,  installed and operating properly.

Best

Darc

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov 14 17:19:56 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Knock Sensor
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 18:22:21 -0700
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The knock sensor is a piezo electric microphone mounted in contact with the
block.  The sensor is not an active device in that it merely listens to the
sounds the engine is making and sends that signal to the ECU for processing.
A knock sensor by itself is nothing more than a microphone.  It requires
sophisticated signal processing before anything uselful can come from the
knock sensor signal.  The ECU does all the work.

The signal sent to the ECU looks similar to a sound wave form.  The ECU
applies filters to get rid of "noise" (all the normal engine sounds) and
come up with a signal from which the presence of knock can be determined.

The presence of a boost controller will in no way affect the behavior of the
knock sensor circuitry.  There is a side effect however.

The ECU has two modes when knock is detected:  short term and long term.
The ECU recovers from short term knock fairly rapidly.  Long term knock
behavior is more permanent.

When knock is detected the first thing the ECU will attempt to do is remove
or retard ignition timing.  If knock is eliminated the ECU will add timing
back in.  It does this for a period of time.  I do not know specifics.

If maxiumum retard is reached and knock is still present the ECU attempts to
reduce boost by actuating the stock boost solenoid.  Clearly this will have
no effect if an EVC is in place or some other mechanism is in place to
bypass the reduction of boost by the stock solenoid.  Since knock will not
be reduced by this action the "long term" knock program is implemented.

The long term knock program retards timing a lot thereby reducing the power
you'd otherwise enjoy.  Some ECUs will not attempt to add timing back in for
around 300 miles, the presumption being there's a bad fuel in the tank.
Other ECUs won't attempt to add timing back in until the fuel level falls
below and then above a certain level.  In the latter case it is possible to
have the timing permanently retarded.  Imagine if the limit were 1/4 tank.
What if you never allowed fuel level to fall below 1/4 tank?  The ECU would
never know to attempt adding timing back in.  This is not uncommon.  Running
less than 1/4 of a tank can be hard on an electric in tank fuel pump (as is
the case in the 3000GT) since the pump relies on fuel to keep it cool.

You can get around this by restting the ECU periodically, especially if you
have been tinkering with the fuel delivery or other things or suspect that
you have had a bad tank of fuel.  I reset my ECU every week or two just
because.  I am not concerend about long term fuel trims which is the
downside of resetting the ECU frequently.

Someone who has dissected the 3000GT ECU would better know the precise
behavior, but the above is typical for many cars, including the DSM which
being from the same manufacturer it is not unreasonable to assume similar if
not identical behavior.

Another side effect of retarded timing is increased EGTs.  This can cause a
head scratching session if you are looking at O2 voltages and EGT values and
they don't jive.  If the timing is retarded a lot the EGT will be high yet
the O2 voltage may indicate a rich situation.

Bottom line, causing the engine to knock is not cool.


Regards,

Barry




> Hi group;
>
> Any chance we, or at least I,  can get an operational understanding from
> the more knowledgeable out there, on how the knock sensor works,  and if
> it will be of assistance if one has an aftermarket Boost Controller
> installed? That's to say...will it work like it is supposed to with a
> Blitz BC , Apexi BC, etc,  installed and operating properly.
>
> Best
>
> Darc
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov 14 17:39:14 1998
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From: Ryan Peterson <rpeterson@rh2.com>
To: "New Stealth List (E-mail)" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Crankshaft pulley
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 17:36:45 -0800
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I would like to remove the crankshaft pulley to get it chromed (don't
ask).  If I just remove it, and nothing else, is there any calibration,
adjustment, alignments, etc. that would need to be done once it's
reinstalled?
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov 14 18:03:57 1998
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Thanks Barry....some good insights here...still digesting them..

Darc

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov 15 06:00:52 1998
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From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Crankshaft pulley
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 09:00:43 -0500
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Ryan, there won't be any problem chroming the outside, visible part of the
pulley, but make sure you or your chrome guys don't drop it.  If dropped,
the outside will surely chip (done it twice myself) and you will be buying a
brand new one.

No special adjustment or alignment should be necessary when you install it.

-Bob

> I would like to remove the crankshaft pulley to get it chromed (don't
> ask).  If I just remove it, and nothing else, is there any calibration,
> adjustment, alignments, etc. that would need to be done once it's
> reinstalled?

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov 15 10:40:24 1998
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Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:39:58 -0600
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I finally got around to downloading the ICQ software.

Sorry To do this again...I know we've been trhough this, but can all of
you that are already subscribed to that service list your #'s again.

Mine is:  23288261

--
-Jeff Crabtree
   '91 Stealth R/T Turbo
      '93 Jeep YJ Wrangler Sport
          St. Louis, MO


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov 15 11:34:57 1998
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> Any new developments on the project below, Roger? I'd love to see something
> like this available to 3S tuners!
>
> Good news? Bad news?

Both, good and bad. My PC finally died a few daysago and I wasn't able to write
some more routines for the Diag Tool until everything else was fixed. Now I'm
back with much more power :)

The good thing is that the prototype works good but I cannot test it as the car
is still sitting at the dealer. Also till today I'm not sure how to create a
knock monitor that plugs onto the stock sensor (microphone). I have to measure
out that thing but I doubt that it is possible without a big work :(

I plan to create three different systems that finally should be available to
everyone on an affordable price. Even it's possible to creat a very small system
that only reads the voltages of the sensors, translates them and sends the data
directly to a serial port of any PC. This would be very cheap as no LCD and no
big case would be needed (cheap, compared to what it does :).

I do not plan to create any Windows Software as it's very easy to capture the
data sent out by the Diag Tool with the help of a Terminal program. This data
can be stored as a text file and directly opened by a spreadsheet program like
Excel.

I'll get my ee-tools as well as backlit LCDs during the next days and will post
some first pictures by the end of next week (prototype of course).

Cheers, Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov 15 11:40:18 1998
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Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 20:38:16 +0100
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Diag System
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> Any new developments on the project below, Roger? I'd love to see something
> like this available to 3S tuners!
>
> Good news? Bad news?

Both, good and bad. My PC finally died a few daysago and I wasn't able to write
some more routines for the Diag Tool until everything else was fixed. Now I'm
back with much more power :)

The good thing is that the prototype works good but I cannot test it as the car
is still sitting at the dealer. Also till today I'm not sure how to create a
knock monitor that plugs onto the stock sensor (microphone). I have to measure
out that thing but I doubt that it is possible without a big work :(

I plan to create three different systems that finally should be available to
everyone on an affordable price. Even it's possible to creat a very small system
that only reads the voltages of the sensors, translates them and sends the data
directly to a serial port of any PC. This would be very cheap as no LCD and no
big case would be needed (cheap, compared to what it does :).

I do not plan to create any Windows Software as it's very easy to capture the
data sent out by the Diag Tool with the help of a Terminal program. This data
can be stored as a text file and directly opened by a spreadsheet program like
Excel.

I'll get my ee-tools as well as backlit LCDs during the next days and will post
some first pictures by the end of next week (prototype of course).

Cheers, Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov 15 16:47:21 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Synchro replacement
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Bob Fontana wrote:
> My understanding of synchro rings is they *can* be over-lubricated,
  believe my 2->1 gear prob stems from particular run where I
> downshifted at too high RPM, forced it in; when speed differential between gears too
> high, gear gets heated/glazed; gear oil
> helps keep parts cool via conduction as well as lubricant.
> 1->2 (upshift) gear shows wear, but not extent of 2->1.
> I'm shifting 7450 RPM seems
> right for smooth transition to 2nd.  Since torque
> so high at that RPM, synchros receive shock when spun
> up similar to clutch-flywheel spin-up from 7000 RPM launch.  There's
> probably some "spinnage" going on there which a normal coating of gear oil
> can't protect.
> Jack if you are reading this, what's your .02 worth?

If synchro has too-slippery a lubricant coat, it won't synchronize
efficiently and may then grind on rapid shift.  The synchros are that
sintered-bronze looking coating like sandpaper, I thought that was
weird, coming from Borg Warner Super T-10/Nash 5-speeds in my Trans AM
whose syncros are machined brass rings with grooves on inner aspect
mating against steel cone.  I suppose both can work, but Getrag's seem
to wear out sooner than I think they should.

2-->1 downshifts into corners too-hot is common and REALLY can force the
synchros to do overtime, you can hear the thing screaming the receiving
gear up to speed as you move the lever...alot of wear.

Jack Tertadian
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov 15 18:00:30 1998
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Bob, Jack, et all;

Have you thought (of course you have) of taking the synchro rings to an AMERICAN company
to have the sandpaper-like brass surfacing reapplied?  If the Germans found a way to do
this when they built them, there has to be a way to redo it, or do it better..as in your
notation of Borg Warner's solid brass rings.

Darcy


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov 15 18:55:53 1998
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Anyone using a custom ACT Clutch?
I think I'm going to replace my new DF Centerforce with the ACT & I'd like to
here any opinions of its users.
Can it be used in heavy traffic without a bionic leg?
Thanks
Arty 91 VR-4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov 15 23:47:55 1998
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Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 02:43:16 -0500
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Arty,

I'm in the process of installing the ACT clutch.  There have been some
delays (from UPS)  on getting my transmission back from the rebuilt
shop, but hopefully I'll have everything installed by the end of this
week.  - I hope that transmission appears some time soon!

I'll let you know about the ACT clutch.  By the way, which clutch disk
are you planing on installing?

Jose

Aso8@aol.com wrote:
>
> Anyone using a custom ACT Clutch?
> I think I'm going to replace my new DF Centerforce with the ACT & I'd like to
> here any opinions of its users.
> Can it be used in heavy traffic without a bionic leg?
> Thanks
> Arty 91 VR-4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov 16 20:07:08 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Pre-cat eliminators
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:09:41 -0700
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I am about to have pre-cat eliminator housings built.  I have left them with
the builder and he doesn't see the big deal.  He has yet to determine a
price but is willing to give it a shot.  My car will be a guinea pig I
guess.

If successful, how many people will commit to purchasing a set?

They will likely be ceramic coated but it depends upon price.


Regards,

Barry

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov 16 20:19:00 1998
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From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@texas.net>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Pre-cat eliminators
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:16:32 -0600
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Barry and others,

For what it is worth, the earlier than 94 pre-cats are different.    The 94+
are angled differently than the 92 parts.

Your builder would probably need to make two sets, or build them including
the downpipe (to make them universal)

I might be interested in pre-cat eliminators if Brian would ever ship my
exhaust that I have been waiting for.  (for over a month.)  Brian, are you
alive?

November drag wars have come & gone, I need an exhaust still.

> Brad
>
> Check out my home page:    http://lonestar.texas.net/~bbedell
> E-Mail: bbedell@texas.net ICQ#  3612682

P.S.  I have now joined the 11second club.


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com] On Behalf Of Barry E. King
Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 10:10 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Pre-cat eliminators

I am about to have pre-cat eliminator housings built.  I have left them with
the builder and he doesn't see the big deal.  He has yet to determine a
price but is willing to give it a shot.  My car will be a guinea pig I
guess.

If successful, how many people will commit to purchasing a set?

They will likely be ceramic coated but it depends upon price.


Regards,

Barry

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov 16 22:22:15 1998
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Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 00:21:51 -0600
From: Jeff Crabtree <wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com>
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        stealth@starnet.net, Teri <icunurse@juno.com>, DSirkus@aol.com,
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Subject: Team3S: My car is DEAD!
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Well boys and girls,

    As some of you may have remembered, I recently purchased a JEEP
wrangler.  The Stealth has been parked for about three weeks now in a
friends garage.  Today, I needed to get something out of it, so before I
had to be at work I dropped by his house.  I decided it was HIGH time I
pull the mothballs off of old girl and AT least drive her to work.
Things were going well until I got about 300 yards from the parking lot
of the TV station I work at.

I had a red light so I stopped.  I was in the left hand lane of two
lanes going the direction that I was headed, and I needed(when the light
turned green) to get over into the right hand lane so I could turn into
the parking lot I was headed to.  When my light turned green, I waited
for the car that was to my right to proceed so that I could sneak in
behind him and make the turn.  After about three to four seconds of MY
light being green, I went.

WHAM!!!!


I was hit HARD by an ambulance.....no lights....no siren....not even an
F-ing patient in transit.  Just two female EMT's having what must have
been an extraordinarly interesting conversation....not paying attention
to the road or the traffic signals.  They had to have been going at
least 30 MPH.

Well....my first thought was OH SHIT...I just hit an ambulance....but
once I realized they weren't in a hurry.  I got a bit agitated.

They hit just in front of the drivers side front wheel. The front left
quarter panel, the hood, the front bumper, and the headlight
mecanism....all beyond recognition.  The oil cooler and intercooler were
destroyed, oil was rushing out of the car at an incredulous rate.  The
frame is surely bent...the nose of the car is twisted up and toward the
passenger side.  Who knows, at this point, what is wrong on the
suspension/steering.  I'm going to miss my baby.

The B!^@# that was driving had the audacity to suggest to the cop taking
the accident report that her light was yellow.

The good news is that my good friend Titus(who's house the car was
stored at) was directly behind me, driving my Jeep, and behind him was
another co-worker of mine named Jay who corroborated my story that my
light had turned green and I WAITED to proceed into the intersection.
Had I not waited....had I lurched out into the intersection, She
probably would have broadsided me and they would have been peeling my
ass out of my beautiful red car with the jaws of life.  I took a video
of the car with one of the news cameras tonight, tomorrow I'll try to
get some still pics and post them somwhere so that everyone can see what
a 15,000 Lb ambulance can do to a 5,000 Lb sports car @ 30 MPH

Hope everybody's day was better than mine.  Glad I just bought a second
car.  I'm going to need it.

--
-Jeff Crabtree
   '91 Stealth R/T Turbo(sorta)
      '93 Jeep YJ Wrangler Sport
          St. Louis, MO


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 17 00:48:13 1998
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: My car is DEAD!
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 00:46:17 -0800
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What an incredible bummer!  I don't know how I would deal with such a stupid
accident (not that many of them are smart...).

You should get a lawyer on it right away, because unless it was a city
ambulance (I hope), those independent ambulance companies have a nasty habit
of changing their names every time they have an accident.  They claim they
transferred all their assets 2 weeks ago, and declare bankruptcy, which gets
you a dime on a dollar of what they owe you, since their insurance is
inadequate, etc, etc...  It's been a big scam in that business (and
independent cab and bus companies) for years.  Get a pro working on it
pronto.

My deepest goes out to you, bro...

Forrest



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 17 06:10:06 1998
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From: "Robert T. Rand" <rtr@vnet.net>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: I Screwed up
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:10:50 -0500
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Hey Guys,
|
I found out where I could get a test pipe for my 93 Stealth TT and I
inadvertently deleted the group I was keeping the information in.

Anyone that can direct me to a TEST PIPE, I would be most appreciative.

Thanks,

Bob




For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 17 07:20:47 1998
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Total unadulterated BUMBER!!!

Just when I was saying: "as long as you don't put it in the classified's".

Bob's advise sounds like really good advise...and since these cars become scarcer on a
daily basis (yours being a very sad example) insist on a replacement, not on a payout.

I'm really sorry to hear this dude...you handled it better than me.

Darc



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 17 11:44:48 1998
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Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:44:02 +0100
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Ryan,
    I know you are chroming for show purposes, but you might want to consider an
underdrive pulley from Unorthodox racing.  It will probably cost a little more, but  it
is aluminum and you can get it color anodized.

Mike C.
0018
'95 Stealth RT TT

Ryan Peterson wrote:

> I would like to remove the crankshaft pulley to get it chromed (don't
> ask).  If I just remove it, and nothing else, is there any calibration,
> adjustment, alignments, etc. that would need to be done once it's
> reinstalled?
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 17 18:57:55 1998
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From: "Ron-a-roid" <rtetetet@email.msn.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: My car is DEAD!
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:01:33 -0500
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My deepest condolences at the recent disaster to your treasured toy. I can't
begin to know how you feel. I'm glad you were physically injured, but I
suspect the mental injury, will no doubt, take longer to heal.

Ron



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 17 19:15:13 1998
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This thread ran out awhile back but without any feedback on the fianl diagnosis. Was
there a problem you identified, or did you weary of running checks on the endless
possiblities? I ask only to document knowns from unknowns ( infintite possibles) with
our cars.

Darc

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 18 04:33:35 1998
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From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Pre-cat eliminators
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:21:14 -0800
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-----Original Message-----
From: Barry E. King [SMTP:beking@home.com]
Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 8:10 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Pre-cat eliminators
<snip>

If successful, how many people will commit to purchasing a set?

<end of snip>
Barry...

I believe there's already a front aftermarket precat available for $125. If we can get a set for under $300
(the back is more complex) you can count me in!!!

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 18 04:35:55 1998
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Message-ID: <01BE12AC.F51DD340.cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: RE: Downpipe
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:03:28 -0800
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Bob...

I suggest you contact ATR at 864-972-3800.

Good price, in stock and available for immediate delivery.

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert T. Rand [SMTP:rtr@vnet.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 6:11 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: I Screwed up

Hey Guys,
|
I found out where I could get a test pipe for my 93 Stealth TT and I
inadvertently deleted the group I was keeping the information in.

Anyone that can direct me to a TEST PIPE, I would be most appreciative.

Thanks,

Bob

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 18 07:23:07 1998
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Although, I think my 91's downpipes will be different then the 94 on...I'll
need a larger size too. I'd like 3" if possible? I'm told there won't be
enough room for this size. If correct, it doesn't pay for me to change the
gutted ones I have.
Arty 91 Vr-4

In a message dated 11/18/98 4:34:10 AM Pacific Standard Time,
cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com writes:

<< ubj: RE: Team3S: Pre-cat eliminators
Date: 11/18/98 4:34:10 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com (Chris Winkley)
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Reply-to: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com ('stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com')

-----Original Message-----
From: Barry E. King [SMTP:beking@home.com]
Sent: Monday, November 16, 1998 8:10 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Pre-cat eliminators
<snip>

If successful, how many people will commit to purchasing a set?

<end of snip>
Barry...

I believe there's already a front aftermarket precat available for $125. If
we can get a set for under $300
(the back is more complex) you can count me in!!!

Looking forward...Chris
  >>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 18 12:50:28 1998
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Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 12:56:38 -0800
From: Rich <rleroy@pacifier.com>
Organization: ...
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All:

Has anybody found replacement bulbs for the fog lights other than going
back to Mits or Dodge?

Any helpful hints when replacing the bulbs?  I've misplaced my manual
.... dammit.

TIA,

Rich
Emerald Green 94 R/T
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 18 13:11:43 1998
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Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:11:25 EST
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Cc: yhauwang@gte.net, yhauwang@hotmail.com
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>From Hau..... Please reply to yhauwang@gte.net and yhauwang@hotmail.com!

<<
Mike can you post this on all the stealths/3kgt lists ??
Barry, I lost your e-mail address ...

Hi all,

I am getting rid of my baby ...

I need to sell all my mods ... asking $5000,00 for the list below ... trying
to sell as a package .... serious inquiries only please ... also if you are
in the area, I'll install them for free ... (Seattle, WA)

TEC 15G turbos Fully ported - 100 miles
AMS Upgraded Intercooler
560 injectors
HKS fuel pump
AEM throttle body upgrade (Core required)
3" custom downpipe
Predator battery dry cell (weights 10 lbs less than stock battery)
A'pexi AVC-R
A'pexi AFC
A'pexi boost gauge with peak hold (white)
A'pexi EGT
Two cyberdynes
Stainless steel braided lines
RS*R springs
Blitz BOV
K&N FIPK
2 mitsubishi head gaskets - new
HKS boost gauge
Magnecor Spark Plug wires
Stillen brake pard (rear set) - new
Hawk Blue racing pad (front set) - new
4 original mitsubishi oil filters
Xdrilled rotors (front set) - used
tons of brake pads - used
4 Bfgoodrich comp T/A R1s - 100 miles on them (looks brand new) 255/40ZR17
Some original Mitsubishi belts - new
and a bunch more little stuff ....

Thanks,

-Hau>> >>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 18 13:44:04 1998
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In a message dated 11/18/98 3:51:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
rleroy@pacifier.com writes:

<< Has anybody found replacement bulbs for the fog lights other than going
back to Mits or Dodge?  >>

Rich,

The replacement bulb for the 94+ style fog lights (and perhaps even the
91-93's) is an H3 bulb.  Before completely removing mine and replacing them
with a set of Catz XLO's on my '95 3K, I attempted to change the bulbs with a
"blue" H3 bulb from Imparts (www.imparts.com).  Here is the process to remove
the fog light housing - it's pretty straight forward, but be VERY careful not
to strip any screws.  I did, and ended up having to drill one out, which broke
the seal to the housing which is a big no-no.

1)  The black plastic frame with the lens snaps right off of the housing,
exposing a smaller housing with 2 screws on the left and right of the lens. 

2)  When removing these 2 screws, be sure to use EXTRA caution and if
possible, use the longest #2 phillips head screwdriver you can find in order
to get the right amount of torque directed in the center of the screw.  Do NOT
use an electric screwdriver or drill with a phillips bit - as it will strip
these extremely soft screws.

3)  Once this is done, I believe there are 4 more screws holding a faceplate
on.  Again - be very careful and remove these using the same manner as in #2.

4)  Now you can get to the bulb.  Make sure you do not touch the bulb with
your fingers (if you don't think you can do this, put on latex gloves).
Simply unplug the back of the bulb, and plug in the new one.  You're done -
now assemble the housing back together.

Again - this process is easy but not.  One thing you do not have to worry
about at all is the adjustment screw which raises the light up and down.  This
only has to be turned if you are removing the entire housing, which you do not
have to do to do a simple bulb-change.

Good luck, again - BE CAREFUL!!  :)

Gregg  '95 3K
http://members.tripod.com/gcouture
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 18 13:55:18 1998
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Greg:

Thanx a bunch for the info and the great directions!

I *knew* this list was good for something ...  ;-)

Rich
Emerald Green 94 R/T
<Winking at oncoming traffic with only one fog light>


GC3000GT@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 11/18/98 3:51:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> rleroy@pacifier.com writes:
>
> << Has anybody found replacement bulbs for the fog lights other than going
>  back to Mits or Dodge?  >>
>
> Rich,
>
> The replacement bulb for the 94+ style fog lights (and perhaps even the
> 91-93's) is an H3 bulb.

<good, clear directions snipped>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 18 14:42:54 1998
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From: "Eric Lotter" <elotter@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rear end shutter under heavye boost/High RPMS
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There were a bunch of diagnostics from awd and tranny to suspension and
bad gas.

none were really tested, however, I was able to reproduce the problem in
a second car, where the conditions were, low fuel, high RPMS in third.
It was not rev limited, but may have been some kind of fule cut/power
transfer condition.

I say that it is similar because i drove both vehicles with low fuel
conditions.

The first, where the proble was first seen, a 91' vr-4. The second was
my 95 vr-4.

We shall soon see. The 91 is being brought in for complete diagnosis.

(I must say it will suck if it is AWD/Trany/transfer related as MY car
and not just my sisters have the same symptom!

I will let you know.

Eric

>From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca
>Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 19:13:40 -0800
>To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>Subject: Re: Team3S: Rear end shutter under heavye boost/High RPMS
>Reply-To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
>This thread ran out awhile back but without any feedback on the fianl
diagnosis. Was
>there a problem you identified, or did you weary of running checks on
the endless
>possiblities? I ask only to document knowns from unknowns ( infintite
possibles) with
>our cars.
>
>Darc
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 18 18:31:06 1998
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From: Dave Allison <dave@languys.com>
Subject: Team3S: Knock, knock...
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Hiya!

I have some quick questions for Roger Gerl and anyone else who can shed
some light.

I recall in a page on Roger's site that he was getting detonation at 1.05
bars of boost. I also read in a later post to the Team3S list that his
turbos were of the 13g variety.

Were these the turbos he had as stock all along? Did the car come with
these turbos in stock configuration?

Were all the measurements and dyno charts reported, produced from these
larger turbos? (i.e. they're not applicable to a stock US 3000GT VR-4?)

Do you think that the reason he was getting detonation at 1.05bars was due
to the ECU not detecting the knock? Do you think it was at its limit of
timing retard? Is it safe to assume that the stock boost solenoid was being
actuated during this event to eliminate the knock? My understanding is that
countermeasures against knock generally come at a cost of horsepower. If
knock was occuring at 1.05 bars, does this mean that this was the level
where the ECU could no longer compensate with retarded timing, etc? If so,
wouldn't this mean that a lower level of boost would be in a range where
there would be no knock and also no ECU knock countermeasures?

Is there an accurate way to detect knock? How reliable is the method of
monitoring the ignition timing signal from the ECU to signify knock being
detected? Is it safe to assume that boost can be increased to the point
just before the ECU begins to retard ignition to combat detected knock? Is
it stupid to rely on the ECU's anti-knock meaures to save your engine? What
are the pitfalls or shortcomings of the stock ECU countermeasures? Does the
stock knock sensor/ECU program address knock too slowly?

Sorry for the bazillion questions, but I have a bog hole the size of
Montana in my head when it comes to this area of our cars.

Thanks guys!

Dave Allison
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 18 19:57:13 1998
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From: "Robert T. Rand" <rtr@vnet.net>
To: <stealth@starnet.net>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Some Transmission info
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 22:58:59 -0500
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Thought the group might find the following of some use.

I contacted a transmission company
http://wwv.joelharbinson.com/All-Trans/services.html  today to discuss our
POS Getreg.

This shop will rebuild them for approx 2 grand and some change.  They
currently have to make due with like new used parts in the syncro and gear
area and have a subsidiary that produces the output shafts.
They are currently in the process of doing the tooling to manufacture
replacement syncros and gears and expect these to be available in approx.  7
months.

I asked if they would mind supplying parts used or new to other shops as it
is just not always cost effective to ship the tranny.  They have no problem
doing this.  They also would be interested in discussing failures and
related problems from 3/s owners so they can have a better handle on the
type of demand for these parts.

Hope all view this as some hope for the future.

Bob
93 Stealth TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 18 19:59:21 1998
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Hi Dave;

Barry King addressed some of the issues you pose in a posting on KNOCK SENSORS last
Saturday. It doesn't answer all of your questions, but sheds light on some. I know Roger
can, and likely will shed further light....In the interim I, like yourself, am leery of
using my B setting of 1.05 bar, until I am certain I do not get detonation. On thing is
certain...the stock actuator  will not be of any help with an after market BC, as it is
bypassed. So there will be a lag while the ECU tries to direct it into action before it
realizes it is not working, and then opts to retard timing. This lag and the
knock/detonation which occurs within that window may be damaging.

Darc  (Darcy Gunnlaugson)

92 Black TT Stealth   #0145



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 18 20:44:23 1998
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Subject: RE: Team3S: Knock, knock...
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Gas quality is also a key factor in determining when knock will occur. The
octane number of gasoline is quite literally an index for its resistance to
knocking. This is why the TT cars require premium fuel - they'll knock at
stock boost levels on 87 octane.

I believe Roger was running 92 octane (the best street gas where he lives).
Most of us run 93 or 94, which affords a small measure of protection.
Lastly, whenever I drive my car hard, I use octane booster. Many others on
the list do the same - it's a smart move to protect the engine. And whenever
its available, you can use 100 or 104 octane unleaded race gas to bump up
your octane count.

Also, Roger ran long hard stretches on the autobahn. This heats the engine,
increasing the likelyhood of knock. 15 seconds on a drag strip or 60 seconds
in an autocross is much safer because the engine is cool (assuming you give
it enough cool-down time between runs).

Understand that what happened to Roger was because he didn't know what was
happening. And it was a reasonable assumption that he would be ok - a
natural mistake any one of us could have made.

We should all learn from Roger's experience. Me, one of the things I did was
gut the pre-cats, to get better evacuation. Less backflow of exhaust gasses
means a cooler combustion chamber means less knock. I made the decision to
do that largely in response to one of Roger's earlier posts about exhaust
backflow causing excessive knock.

   -Ed
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 18 20:47:54 1998
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From: "Ron-a-roid" <rtetetet@email.msn.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: OE Fog Lights
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 23:51:25 -0500
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If you have the rectangular ones, just unscrew the plastic splash panel and
reach in behind the light. it's really easy this way and you aren't fooling
with a bunch of screws and bezels.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rich <rleroy@pacifier.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: OE Fog Lights


>Greg:
>
>Thanx a bunch for the info and the great directions!
>
>I *knew* this list was good for something ...  ;-)
>
>Rich
>Emerald Green 94 R/T
><Winking at oncoming traffic with only one fog light>
>
>
>GC3000GT@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> In a message dated 11/18/98 3:51:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>> rleroy@pacifier.com writes:
>>
>> << Has anybody found replacement bulbs for the fog lights other than
going
>>  back to Mits or Dodge?  >>
>>
>> Rich,
>>
>> The replacement bulb for the 94+ style fog lights (and perhaps even the
>> 91-93's) is an H3 bulb.
>
> <good, clear directions snipped>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 18 22:16:06 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Knock, knock...
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>wce@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:
>
><Snip>
>
> On thing is certain...the stock actuator  will not be of any help with an after market
> BC, as it is bypassed. So there will be a lag while the ECU tries to direct it into
> action before it realizes it is not working, and then opts to retard timing. This lag
> and the knock/detonation which occurs within that window may be damaging.

It was my understanding that the computer first tries to retard the
timing, when it ca not retard it anymore (and if knock persists) then it
goes after the stock actuator.

Am I wrong about this?

-Jose
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 18 23:16:48 1998
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Ron-a-roid wrote:
>
> If you have the rectangular ones, just unscrew the plastic splash panel and
> reach in behind the light. it's really easy this way and you aren't fooling
> with a bunch of screws and bezels.

Not an option.  The 94+ models use(d) the round foglights.

Of course, as any believer in Mr. Murphy will understand, within 10
minutes of getting home tonight I found my manual.

Now, if I can only find that winning lottery ticket ....  :-)

Rich
Emerald Green 94 R/T
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 19 00:35:14 1998
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"Fein, Edward" wrote:
>
> Gas quality is also a key factor in determining when knock will occur. The
> octane number of gasoline is quite literally an index for its resistance to
> knocking. This is why the TT cars require premium fuel - they'll knock at
> stock boost levels on 87 octane.
>
> I believe Roger was running 92 octane (the best street gas where he lives).
> Most of us run 93 or 94, which affords a small measure of protection.
> Lastly, whenever I drive my car hard, I use octane booster. Many others on
> the list do the same - it's a smart move to protect the engine. And whenever
> its available, you can use 100 or 104 octane unleaded race gas to bump up
> your octane count.
>
> Also, Roger ran long hard stretches on the autobahn. This heats the engine,
> increasing the likelyhood of knock. 15 seconds on a drag strip or 60 seconds
> in an autocross is much safer because the engine is cool (assuming you give
> it enough cool-down time between runs).
>
> Understand that what happened to Roger was because he didn't know what was
> happening. And it was a reasonable assumption that he would be ok - a
> natural mistake any one of us could have made.
>
> We should all learn from Roger's experience. Me, one of the things I did was
> gut the pre-cats, to get better evacuation. Less backflow of exhaust gasses
> means a cooler combustion chamber means less knock. I made the decision to
> do that largely in response to one of Roger's earlier posts about exhaust
> backflow causing excessive knock.
>
>    -Ed
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

--
-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,SBOV,ATR DP/cat,
Borla,OZ Mito2,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,Bremsa brakes,Pagid RS-R pads
Ready: GT-Alley 368S Turbos,front mount IC/ stainless steel piping,G-Force ECU
(3 EPROMS),fuel pump,VPC,GCC,720 Injectors,Blitz Filter/GT-Alley VPC adapter,
Maybe: f.aluminum pistons (if rebuild needed)
Visit my homepage under: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 19 00:35:42 1998
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Subject: Team3S: Re: Knock, knock..(kinda long)
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Hi Dave (et all),

I think I try to answer the questions myself :)

>         Were these the turbos he had as stock all along? Did the car come with
> these turbos in stock configuration?

Yes, the European 3000GT TwinTurbo (we only have VR4) have some differencies
nobody really can tell. That's why we find them out from time to time. The
numbers on the turbos show that they are 13G and are probably made for our high
speeds on the Autobahn.

>         Were all the measurements and dyno charts reported, produced from these
> larger turbos? (i.e. they're not applicable to a stock US 3000GT VR-4?)

Yes, unfortunately this is the case. But please also note that on the first dyno
session the engine was already weak and only the next one will be a real one. I
do have an older dyno slip where the car showed DIN 352hp at only 0.7bars of
boost.

>         Do you think that the reason he was getting detonation at 1.05bars
> was due to the ECU not detecting the knock? Do you think it was at its limit
> of timing retard? Is it safe to assume that the stock boost solenoid was being
> actuated during this event to eliminate the knock? My understanding is that
> countermeasures against knock generally come at a cost of horsepower.

Well, this is interesting but one of the slips are showing the power loss due to
the retarded timing. Also on my street testings I runned into fuel cut at low
boost. If the ECU cannot retard anymore it shuts down the injectors. Of course
in an earlier stage it just closes the stock solenoid to try to prevent more
boost. Of course the boost solenoid was actuated all the time because it does
when boost reaches about 0.5bars (calculated)

> If knock was occuring at 1.05 bars, does this mean that this was the level
> where the ECU could no longer compensate with retarded timing, etc? If so,
> wouldn't this mean that a lower level of boost would be in a range where
> there would be no knock and also no ECU knock countermeasures?

The dyno slip showed no power loss at 1.1bars but high speed knock was hearable
by the dyno guy (with the hose to ear-adapter, hehe) We then lowered boost by
0.1bar steps and became fine at 1.05bars. Short overboosts to 1.1bars where not
hearable due to the fast rpm change. Lower boost means less need of fuel and
therefore more headroom for the system. Also it is very dependend on the health
of the engine !

>      Is there an accurate way to detect knock?

Hmm, reading the knock sensor directly is not very safe as this is only a piezo
microphone that gives an increased voltage when more noise appears. But this
must then be filtered by the ECUs electronic.

> How reliable is the method of monitoring the ignition timing signal from the
> ECU to signify knock being detected?

I think it assumes at first that the solenoid valve is closed and therefore
boost is lowered and therefore changes the fuel maps until it acts upon knock.
Well who really knows ?

> Is it safe to assume that boost can be increased to the point
> just before the ECU begins to retard ignition to combat detected knock?

No. We had to lower boost from a level no retard was seen. But I must admit that
we had no logging device that would show the timing. We just saw the values on
the dynos display.

> Is it stupid to rely on the ECU's anti-knock meaures to save your engine?

Yes, it is stupid. The only real thing is having an EGT in the headers before
the turbos. This is the only thing that is able to tell you the causes for
knock. Why listen to knock and not listen the causes of it ?? This is more
accurate and it assurs you if you are running lean or rich. Only looking at the
O2 sensors is also not that good because they are probably too slow and also in
the after-turbo part of the exhaust.

> What are the pitfalls or shortcomings of the stock ECU countermeasures? Does
> the stock knock sensor/ECU program address knock too slowly?

Even it doesn't show the check engine light when it runs in emergency mode !
This is not good. I don't rely on the ECUs knock detection !

> Sorry for the bazillion questions, but I have a bog hole the size of
> Montana in my head when it comes to this area of our cars.

This are really good questions and a good base for discussion. I'm sure others
will be of more knowledge and can add their experiences.

Later,
Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 19 01:00:18 1998
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Argh, sorry I hit the send button before writing anything... call me stupid !
Please apologize to dub Eds post.

But her it comes :)

> Gas quality is also a key factor in determining when knock will occur.

Well, we all have to think about what causes detonation ! Obviously this is a
lean and hot situation and therefore we have to watch the causes for such
situations and not the ECU like it tries to get rid of the problem. Of course
gas quality is one key factor and it helps as it also helps to spray more and
more fuel into the chambers to cool them down preventing knock. Not the best
idea because its fighting not the causes for the problem but it works.

> I believe Roger was running 92 octane (the best street gas where he lives).

Our gas I run is rated at 98ROZ. Jim Matthews told me that this equals to the
94octane rated gas in the US.

> Lastly, whenever I drive my car hard, I use octane booster.

Unfortunately these add-ons are forbidden in Switzerland and I can't find any
bottle. I hope to be in the UK again sometimes to fill up a plane for me :) I
cannot tell from any experiences but I hope that an EGT in the headers should
show lower temperatures when using octane booster at the same boost and
environment.

> Also, Roger ran long hard stretches on the autobahn. This heats the engine,
> increasing the likelyhood of knock.

Absolutely correct ! The German Autobahn isn't flat and there are a lot hills
where I drove for 10 minutes showing 1.2bars all the time. I then was able to
hear knock but the car still felt strong. Was my ECU not listening to the
detonation sensor (microphone) ??

> Understand that what happened to Roger was because he didn't know what was
> happening. And it was a reasonable assumption that he would be ok - a
> natural mistake any one of us could have made.

No, to be honest, I didn't listen to what others on the lists(s) told. And also
I thought that if I really run into knock the ECU will have the securities built
in to prevent any damage. Also I always felt that the hesitation is that the car
is runnign out of fuel spray into the chambers and thought adding a fuel pump
and bigger injectors would help. No, as the ECU jumps out the MAP and into the
fuel cut really fast when trying to increase the fuel delivery. I did this with
the AFC and runned into FC at 1.0 bars then. Finally the hesitation IS retarded
timing due to knock !

> We should all learn from Roger's experience.

Yes, please do so. But as I said, I was an ignorant and killed the engine due to
this ! I learned my lesson well and will install the EGT meter as soon as I get
it and the car back.

> Me, one of the things I did was gut the pre-cats, to get better evacuation.
> Less backflow of exhaust gasses means a cooler combustion chamber means less
> knock.

One problem we saw was that the pressure before the turbos became too high and
therefore pressed to gases back to the chambers causing a lean situation and
therefore knock. At around 5000rpms this is hearable as it becomes continous
knock but when accelerating quick and shifting hard this can only be happen to a
short time and it's possible in only one chamber as then the pressure could be
gone after a third of a revolution. This is called "high speed knock" (ok, we
here in Europe call this). It is a higher frequency than "normal" knock that can
be heard from the drivers seat. Hmmm, maybe the electronics in our ECU filters
this higher frequencies out and therefore cannot listen to it ? Or as this knock
is not continous the glitch in the ECU program thinks it is false knock ?

To have to full overview on a system we should install the EGTs into the headers
as well as a pressure sensor. With only this it is possible to see problems
starting BEFORE running into knock.

Unfortunately, I haven't got the parts I wanted to install in time and therefore
will run the car with the 13Gs and stock parts over the winter time. At this
time I'll have the chance to put the adapters and EGT sensors into the new
headers from Brian (GT Alley) in the hope to get real figures then.

One hint : Listen to your engine ... and friends with so much experience !

Cheers,
Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,SBOV,ATR DP/cat,
Borla,OZ Mito2,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,Bremsa brakes,Pagid RS-R pads,
13Gs (stock EU)

Visit my homepage under: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 19 08:32:07 1998
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References: <4.1.19981118183017.01db1100@ricochet.net> <36539730.B72974A1@bc.sympatico.ca> <3653B66B.3C854C7D@engin.umich.edu>
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josesini wrote:

> It was my understanding that the computer first tries to retard the
> timing, when it ca not retard it anymore (and if knock persists) then it
> goes after the stock actuator.
>
> Am I wrong about this?

Who really knows Jose?  As it was recently explained to me..."the mysteries of the ECU are
understood by very very few". I would think, however, that progressive timing retard intoa
full  emmergency mode, would negate any need to action the actuator at all...hence my reason
(however flawed it may be) for thinking the stock solenoid was likely the first line of
action...which in the case of an after market BC, is now a widget with nothing to do but
receive signals (and not action them).

Darcy

92 Stealth TT.......#0145

>
>
> -Jose
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 19 08:41:10 1998
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Barry, Bob, Jack, Todd, Roger, Jim et all

Can I get some consensus from you guys on running 1.05 with a stock
configuration (+ BC, K&N, main cat gone)??? With the recent threads it
seems marginal...add octane boost ...safe or still marginal?? I can live
with 1 bar, but having 1.05 for needy situations would be nice. I know
it is always dangerous to advise, so I'll take all the advise I can
solicit, and make up my own mind..

Thanks in advance

Darc

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 19 08:44:21 1998
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Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:42:46 EST
To: stealth@starnet.net, stealth@dragnet.com, stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
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Subject: Team3S: 3000GT and Stealth Windshield Banners now available!
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Hey All,

Many of you have inquired about larger versions of the 3000GT and Stealth
vinyl graphics I offer for possible windshield banners.  Well, I finally got
some prices, and here's the scoop on them:

3000GT Windshield Banner: 
Measures roughly 3" x 34 1/2"
Metallic Silver Price:  $35
Any Color Price:  $30

Stealth Windshield Banner:
Measures roughly 3" x 52"
Metallic Silver Price:  $40
Any Color Price:  $35

These are made up in the same weatherproof vinyl in which I have the
3000GT/Stealth ID kits made up in.  Many of you can agree that this vinyl
truely holds up to it's name.  If any of you are interested, please let me
know as soon as possible so I can tally up an order.  The faster all of you
place your order, the faster you'll receive it.  For payment and ordering
info, please email me privately at:  GC3000GT@aol.com

I'm also taking more orders for the regular 3000GT/Stealth ID Logo kits as
seen on http://members.tripod.com/gcouture/logos

Thanks,
Now back to your regularly scheduled flame wars.

Gregg
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 19 10:05:20 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 1.05 Bar
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:07:53 -0700
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I think you should be able to get away with 1.05 bar on excellent fuel for
short blasts.  You don't really have the opportunity in Canada to run 1.05
bar for 10 minutes at a time (well you DO but...) so with high octane fuel +
octane booster you should be fine.

Make sure you know what your controller reads.  Some read bar, some read
kilogram/cm^2.

1 bar = 14.504 psi
1 kg/cm^2 = 14.223 psi
1 atmosphere = 14.67

These conversions are confused all over the place bu t the above are
factual.  People get especially confused with bar and atmospehere and use
them interchangably - they are different.  Fortunately it only makes a psi
or so difference but that 1 psi may be the difference between detonation and
smooth running.


Regards,

Barry

>  Barry, Bob, Jack, Todd, Roger, Jim et all
>
> Can I get some consensus from you guys on running 1.05 with a stock
> configuration (+ BC, K&N, main cat gone)??? With the recent threads it
> seems marginal...add octane boost ...safe or still marginal?? I can live
> with 1 bar, but having 1.05 for needy situations would be nice. I know
> it is always dangerous to advise, so I'll take all the advise I can
> solicit, and make up my own mind..
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Darc

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 19 13:08:32 1998
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>From some of the recent posts about downpipe sizes and room for larger
pipes...
Does anyone know how Trust gets 20G turbos along with the (must be) much
larger plumbing in the car? Do they tube the frame?
Arty 91 VR-4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 19 13:44:38 1998
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> Does anyone know how Trust gets 20G turbos along with the (must be) much
> larger plumbing in the car? Do they tube the frame?

The 368S Turbos from Brain (GT Alley) are comparable to 20G. But the turbine
housing is the same so no problem with fittings on this side. But the compressor
housing is huge and the outlet is not bent like it is on our stock turbos.
Unfortunately we noticed this when we tried to bolt the new front one on :( The
housing intereferes with the front engine mounting bracket and the only way is
to install the new bracket that comes with the turbos. With this it should fit.
I don't see any problem for the rear one.

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 19 14:08:41 1998
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Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:03:20 -0500
From: josesini <josesini@engin.umich.edu>
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Subject: Team3S: Wheel Prices...
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The following is a list of prices for wheels and tires of a group buy
that the DSM list is trying to put together.  I think these are great
prices.

Contact David Nylander at awdtalon@san.rr.com

Hurry up because the deal is almost done!

Jose

David Nylander wrote:
>
> Good and bad news.  First off, I got the price
> list and so do you.  Bad news, the prices are
> good, but not as good as I expected. Also, the
> SSR integral can not be had at a good price.  He
> failed to mention this to me. Tire rack owns
> those wheels so he can get then any cheaper.
> Sorry to all those guys who wanted the Integral.
>
>  Let me explainn the file I've attached.  Their
> are three prices next to each wheel column.  The
> first is list, the second is if we have 5
> people(I think that would be a normal price
> quote.  These prices are near the original quote
> he gave me.), the third is if we can get over 10
> people.  That price is as good as you will ever
> find.  Its only a 2% markup, which is next to
> nothing.  I told him I felt the prices were a
> little high for the amount of wheels wanted, but
> he won't make that much unless we can get all 40
> sets.  Without the integral people and others
> who haven't returned my emails, we have about 30
> possible.  Basically, I want to know who is
> willing to pay the third column price.  If there
> are enough, maybe the price can be knocked down
> a little more(not much).
> Regarding tires, only Falken are listed.  These
> prices can also be knocked down 5-10 per tire
> depending on who orders what, how many of that
> tire they have in stock(if they have a lot, the
> price will be cheaper), and so on.  I asked
> about all other brands tires and he said he
> would be able to beat any advertised add.  Look
> in a car mag at the tire rack or discount.  I
> don't really know much more about the tire
> situation.
> Shpping, mounting and balancing.
>     Mounting and balancing a tire will cost 40
> for the set.  Maybe a few bucks less.  That is
> his cost.  Can't get much cheaper anywhere.
>     Shipping a set of 17s w/tires will cost
> 70-100.  18s w/tires 90-120.  16s and 15s would
> be a little cheaper than the 17s.  He didn't
> say, I didn't ask.  The store is in Denver, CO.,
> so, it might be a little cheaper as well if you
> live closer.  Not sure.  I know there is one guy
> who lives in CO, he would be the only one to
> have to pay sales tax.  That is a plus.
> If you just want rims(no tires), shipping will
> be anywhere from 10-20 per rim.  All the
> merchandise will be insured of course.
>     I'm pretty sure we would get free lugs and
> maybe caps if we can put in a good sized order.
>     Custom colors (black, orange, red, etc.)
> will cost about 60-80 more for the set.  Time
> may be an issue as well.  Quite a few peope
> asked about silver for the TE37.  Volk has a
> highly polished look and a normal plain silver.
> The polished one will cost the same as a custom
> color 60-80, silver should not cost anything.
>
> Here is the plan.  If the third column of prices
> looks good to you, email me your name, wheel you
> want, and tire(if you want) once again.  If you
> don't want in, please email me so I will know
> not to wait on you.  I'll give it like two
> days.  If we come up with 10, we'll do it for
> sure.  If not, who cares. If there are more than
> 10, I'll figure out the final pricing.
>
> Hopefully I've answered everyones questions. I
> may have left something out, I'm in a hurry to
> get to work.  The prices may still be high, but
> they are by far and away the best prices you can
> get.  Please don't tell some other store about
> these prices, this is an exclusive deal
> initiated by Club DSM and shared with other
> groups.  Thanks all.
>
> Dave Nylander
>
--------------DB9C2B828F0D23DCCF604F9B
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--------------DB9C2B828F0D23DCCF604F9B--

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 19 14:12:00 1998
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From: "GT ALLEY" <thegtalley@email.msn.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Trust 20G headers & turbos
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 14:15:42 -0800
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One little side note to this. We use the stock exhaust housing, but not the
stock turbine section. Our turbine is a proprietary set-up and is of the
best config. possible in the stock exh. housing. Compressor section is MUCH
larger than stock and the comp. wheel is as well. Roger is correct in the
wheel size being comparable to a 20G, but it is a much more effecient wheel
then the 20G.

The new GT-368SX turbo does require the changing of the front mounting
bracket (included), in the package. All else is plug and play.

Thanks,
Brian@
The GT ALLEY
3/S Performance Central
-----Original Message-----
From: R.G. <robby@swissonline.ch>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Thursday, November 19, 1998 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Trust 20G headers & turbos


>> Does anyone know how Trust gets 20G turbos along with the (must be) much
>> larger plumbing in the car? Do they tube the frame?
>
>The 368S Turbos from Brain (GT Alley) are comparable to 20G. But the
turbine
>housing is the same so no problem with fittings on this side. But the
compressor
>housing is huge and the outlet is not bent like it is on our stock turbos.
>Unfortunately we noticed this when we tried to bolt the new front one on
( The
>housing intereferes with the front engine mounting bracket and the only way
is
>to install the new bracket that comes with the turbos. With this it should
fit.
>I don't see any problem for the rear one.
>
>-----------------------
>Roger Gerl, Switzerland
>93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 19 14:22:17 1998
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From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 1.05 Bar
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:22:01 -0500
Message-ID: <000101be140b$079d55e0$0201a8c0@mitspc.securitytechnologies.com>
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Reply-To: stealth-3000gt

Hi,

I used 93 octane fuel on my last 40 runs at DeSoto Raceway with no ill
effects.  I was running 23-24 PSI, sometimes more, sometimes less.  That's
something like
1.6 bar (not 1.06).  On short, 1/4-mile bursts, the fuel situation should be
fine at almost any amount of boost you can produce.  When asked, "Hey Bob, I
have stock turbos and a Profec...How much boost can I run?", I've always
said that in the 1/4 mile, you can run as much as you can.  I still believe
that, despite several recent list member meltdowns.  Most of those happened
after extended bursts of more than 11 or 12 seconds.

-Bob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Barry E. King
> Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 1:08 PM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: RE: Team3S: 1.05 Bar
>
>
> I think you should be able to get away with 1.05 bar on excellent fuel for
> short blasts.  You don't really have the opportunity in Canada to run 1.05
> bar for 10 minutes at a time (well you DO but...) so with high
> octane fuel +
> octane booster you should be fine.
>
> Make sure you know what your controller reads.  Some read bar, some read
> kilogram/cm^2.
>
> 1 bar = 14.504 psi
> 1 kg/cm^2 = 14.223 psi
> 1 atmosphere = 14.67
>
> These conversions are confused all over the place bu t the above are
> factual.  People get especially confused with bar and atmospehere and use
> them interchangably - they are different.  Fortunately it only makes a psi
> or so difference but that 1 psi may be the difference between
> detonation and
> smooth running.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Barry
>
> >  Barry, Bob, Jack, Todd, Roger, Jim et all
> >
> > Can I get some consensus from you guys on running 1.05 with a stock
> > configuration (+ BC, K&N, main cat gone)??? With the recent threads it
> > seems marginal...add octane boost ...safe or still marginal?? I can live
> > with 1 bar, but having 1.05 for needy situations would be nice. I know
> > it is always dangerous to advise, so I'll take all the advise I can
> > solicit, and make up my own mind..
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> >
> > Darc
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 19 16:28:24 1998
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Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 19:25:56 EST
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: Team3S: Wheel Prices...
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Its probably me but can someone who downloaded this file please send it to me
opened. I can't open it when I download it???
Thanks
Arty

In a message dated 11/19/98 10:10:06 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
josesini@engin.umich.edu writes:

<<  following is a list of prices for wheels and tires of a group buy
that the DSM list is trying to put together.  I think these are great
prices.

Contact David Nylander at awdtalon@san.rr.com
  >>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 19 16:57:10 1998
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From: "Palamara, Peter" <pala@gwl.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Trust 20G headers & turbos
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:55:00 -0700
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The trust kit only comes with the td-05 16g made by them for their
header set-up. You have to go this route because everything goes
together as a whole the turbos, type-s wastegates, and headers. That's
what I learned when we started looking into the package. According to
greddy and other sources obtained you can use the hks hard pipe
intercoooling plumbing but some small modifications have to be made and
the exhaust housings have to be specially made along with the water and
oil lines. That's why I'm selling a almost complete turbo system off of
my car around January to February. Hope this answers the question.

Pete Palamara
92 3000vr-4(GTO)
500 hp of Fun
(303)689-4733

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Aso8@aol.com [SMTP:Aso8@aol.com]
> Sent: Thursday, November 19, 1998 2:08 PM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Cc: Aso8@aol.com
> Subject: Team3S: Trust 20G headers & turbos
>
> From some of the recent posts about downpipe sizes and room for larger
> pipes...
> Does anyone know how Trust gets 20G turbos along with the (must be)
> much
> larger plumbing in the car? Do they tube the frame?
> Arty 91 VR-4
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 19 21:13:59 1998
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Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 23:13:21 -0600
From: xwing <xwing@execpc.com>
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: 1.05 Bar
References: <365449BC.D5E3FA8B@bc.sympatico.ca>
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wce@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:
> consensus on running 1.05 with stock
> configuration + BC, K&N, main cat gone)?
> add octane boost safe or still marginal? I can live
> with 1 bar, but having 1.05 for needy situations would be nice.

1.05 bar (15.3psi or so) is no problem on 93 octane.  The knock sensor
can adjust enough for that.  I would not go over 16psi for extended
periods; 20 psi for short term; but go at your own risk past 18 on 93
octane, those cast pistons are unforgiving, once they start a crack they
WILL eventually FINSISH that crack...
Jack T.

ps has anyone with AVCR or other injection pulse monitor and stock
injectors/no VPC seen duty cycle with boost as you adjust 14,15,16 etc
psi?  When do they max out?
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 19 21:30:37 1998
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From: "Ron-a-roid" <rtetetet@email.msn.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Wheel Prices...
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:33:30 -0500
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It's in Excel Arty. Do you have a spread sheet?

-----Original Message-----
From: Aso8@aol.com <Aso8@aol.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Cc: Aso8@aol.com <Aso8@aol.com>
Date: Thursday, November 19, 1998 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Wheel Prices...


>Its probably me but can someone who downloaded this file please send it to
me
>opened. I can't open it when I download it???
>Thanks
>Arty
>
>In a message dated 11/19/98 10:10:06 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
>josesini@engin.umich.edu writes:
>
><<  following is a list of prices for wheels and tires of a group buy
> that the DSM list is trying to put together.  I think these are great
> prices.
>
> Contact David Nylander at awdtalon@san.rr.com
>  >>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 19 22:48:42 1998
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From: "Robert T. Rand" <rtr@vnet.net>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Wheel Prices...
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:50:42 -0500
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I have excel and it would not read the file either.

Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron-a-roid <rtetetet@email.msn.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Friday, November 20, 1998 12:31 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Wheel Prices...


>It's in Excel Arty. Do you have a spread sheet?
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Aso8@aol.com <Aso8@aol.com>
>To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Cc: Aso8@aol.com <Aso8@aol.com>
>Date: Thursday, November 19, 1998 7:30 PM
>Subject: Re: Team3S: Wheel Prices...
>
>
>>Its probably me but can someone who downloaded this file please send it to
>me
>>opened. I can't open it when I download it???
>>Thanks
>>Arty
>>
>>In a message dated 11/19/98 10:10:06 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
>>josesini@engin.umich.edu writes:
>>
>><<  following is a list of prices for wheels and tires of a group buy
>> that the DSM list is trying to put together.  I think these are great
>> prices.
>>
>> Contact David Nylander at awdtalon@san.rr.com
>>  >>
>>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 19 22:53:58 1998
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In a message dated 11/20/98 12:16:52 AM Eastern Standard Time,
xwing@execpc.com writes:

<< ps has anyone with AVCR or other injection pulse monitor and stock
injectors/no VPC seen duty cycle with boost as you adjust 14,15,16 etc
psi?  When do they max out? >>

Close to 100%.

Mike Mahaffey - '94 Stealth tt Best et: 11.6  Best mph: 120.7
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 20 06:18:17 1998
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I tried Excel and everythink else I could think of but I could not open this
file?
I figured its just my poor computer skills. I was trying to see what the
prices were for both the Volk & Blitz rims in 16 or 17 inch sizes? If anyone
can open it and send me the readout I'd appreciate it.
Thanks
Arty 91 Vr-4

In a message dated 11/19/98 10:50:29 PM Pacific Standard Time, rtr@vnet.net
writes:

<< ubj: Re: Team3S: Wheel Prices...
Date: 11/19/98 10:50:29 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: rtr@vnet.net (Robert T. Rand)
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Reply-to: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com

I have excel and it would not read the file either.

Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron-a-roid <rtetetet@email.msn.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Friday, November 20, 1998 12:31 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Wheel Prices...


>It's in Excel Arty. Do you have a spread sheet?
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Aso8@aol.com <Aso8@aol.com>
>To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Cc: Aso8@aol.com <Aso8@aol.com>
>Date: Thursday, November 19, 1998 7:30 PM
>Subject: Re: Team3S: Wheel Prices...
>
>
>>Its probably me but can someone who downloaded this file please send it to
>me
>>opened. I can't open it when I download it???
>>Thanks
>>Arty
>> >>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 20 06:55:08 1998
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From: "Todd D Shelton" <tds@brightok.net>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Wheel Prices...
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:58:56 -0600
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Arty - here's what it looks like (sort of)  in excel it's
set up in a table of course.  If you have excel I could
try sending the file directly to you.

- tds



205-45ZR-16
             110

             205-45ZR-16
             107





             18X10
             700
             490
             455

            205-50VR-16
             99

             205-50VR-16
             105

             VOLK III







            205-55VR-16
             103

             205-55ZR-16
             112

             17X7
             710
             423
             ?
             TROPHY




            225-50VR-16
             107

             215-40ZR-16
             119

             17X8
             730
             474
             438
             17X8
             665
             465
             432

            225-50HR-16
             98

             225-45ZR-16
             127

             17X9
             750
             487
             450
             17X9
             685
             476
             445

            225-55VR-16
             109

             225-50ZR-16
             107

             17X10
             765
             497
             459
             17X10
             700
             490
             455

            235-55VR-16
             110

             225-55ZR-16
             119

             18X7.5
             790
             513
             474
             18X8
             750
             525
             487

            P245-50HR-16
             99

             235-55ZR-16
             117

             18X8
             800
             520
             480
             18X9
             765
             535
             497

            P245-50VR-16
             109

             235-55ZR-16
             117

             18X9
             820
             533
             492
             18X10
             785
             549
             510

            P245-50ZR-16
             113

             245-45ZR-16
             132

             18X10
             840
             546
             504





            P255-50ZR-16
             118

             205-40ZR-17
             125





             TE37




            215-40ZR-17
             127

             205-50ZR-17
             108

             VOLK IIII
             -35%

             15X6
             365
             255
             237

            215-45ZR-17
             128

             215-40ZR-17
             130

             17X7
             655
             425

             15X6.5
             375
             262
             244

            235-45ZR-17
             130

             215-45ZR-17
             133

             17X8
             675
             438

             15X7
             385
             269
             250

            245-45ZR-17
             132

             225-45ZR-17
             135

             17X9
             695
             451

             15X7.5
             395
             276
             257

            255-45ZR-17
             140

             235-40ZR-17
             137

             17X10
             750
             487

             16X7
             450
             315
             293

            255-40ZR-17
             138

             235-45ZR-17
             136

             18X7.5
             755
             490

             16X8
             465
             325
             302

            275-40ZR-17
             155

             245-40ZR-17
             139

             18X8
             765
             497

             17X7.5
             565
             395
             367




             245-45ZR-17
             138

             18X9
             775
             503

             17X8.5
             585
             409
             380




             255-40ZR-17
             145

             18X10
             785
             510

             17X9
             595
             416
             387




             265-40-ZR-17
             150





             17X9.5
             600
             420
             390




             225-40ZR-18
             175

             SEBRING


             18X7.5
             620
             434
             403




             235-40ZR-18
             185

             ITC
             LIST


             18X8.5
             640
             448
             416




             255-35ZR-18
             205

             17X7
             390
             253
             234
             18X9
             650
             455
             423




             265-35ZR-18
             220

             18X7.5
             450
             292
             270
             18X9.5
             655
             458
             426







             18X8.5
             470
             305
             282











             18X9.5
             490
             318







    -----Original Message-----
    From: Aso8@aol.com <Aso8@aol.com>
    To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
    Cc: Aso8@aol.com <Aso8@aol.com>
    Date: Friday, November 20, 1998 8:20 AM
    Subject: Re: Team3S: Wheel Prices...


    I tried Excel and everythink else I could think of but I could not open
this
    file?
    I figured its just my poor computer skills. I was trying to see what the
    prices were for both the Volk & Blitz rims in 16 or 17 inch sizes? If
anyone
    can open it and send me the readout I'd appreciate it.
    Thanks
    Arty 91 Vr-4

    In a message dated 11/19/98 10:50:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,
rtr@vnet.net
    writes:

    << ubj: Re: Team3S: Wheel Prices...
    Date: 11/19/98 10:50:29 PM Pacific Standard Time
    From: rtr@vnet.net (Robert T. Rand)
    Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
    Reply-to: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
    To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com

    I have excel and it would not read the file either.



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 20 06:57:06 1998
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From: "Todd D Shelton" <tds@brightok.net>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Wheel Prices...
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:00:55 -0600
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            I'm not sure I got it all with that last message - here it is
again:

            - tds















            Falken





             VOLK
             LIST



             LIST
             -30%


            Ziex ZE-502


             GRB


             CHALLENGE - WINNING
             AV3




            195-50HR-15
             70

             195-50ZR-15
             87

             17X7
             557
             390
             362
             17X7
             580
             406
             377

            195-50VR-15
             80

             195-55ZR-15
             90

             17X8
             610
             427
             396
             17X8
             600
             420
             390

            205-50HR-15
             82

             205-50ZR-15
             98

             17X9
             630
             441
             410
             17X9
             610
             427
             397

            205-50VR-15
             89

             205-55ZR-15
             102

             17X10
             650
             455
             423
             17X10
             630
             441
             410

            205-55VR-15
             95

             225-50ZR-15
             105

             18X8
             680
             476
             442
             18X7.5
             655
             458
             426

            225-50VR-15
             102

             195-50HR-16
             89

             18X9
             690
             483
             449
             18X8
             665
             465
             432

            205-40HR-16
             90

             195-50VR-16
             96

             18X10
             710
             497
             462
             18X9
             685
             476
             445

            205-45ZR-16
             110

             205-45ZR-16
             107





             18X10
             700
             490
             455

            205-50VR-16
             99

             205-50VR-16
             105

             VOLK III







            205-55VR-16
             103

             205-55ZR-16
             112

             17X7
             710
             423
             ?
             TROPHY




            225-50VR-16
             107

             215-40ZR-16
             119

             17X8
             730
             474
             438
             17X8
             665
             465
             432

            225-50HR-16
             98

             225-45ZR-16
             127

             17X9
             750
             487
             450
             17X9
             685
             476
             445

            225-55VR-16
             109

             225-50ZR-16
             107

             17X10
             765
             497
             459
             17X10
             700
             490
             455

            235-55VR-16
             110

             225-55ZR-16
             119

             18X7.5
             790
             513
             474
             18X8
             750
             525
             487

            P245-50HR-16
             99

             235-55ZR-16
             117

             18X8
             800
             520
             480
             18X9
             765
             535
             497

            P245-50VR-16
             109

             235-55ZR-16
             117

             18X9
             820
             533
             492
             18X10
             785
             549
             510

            P245-50ZR-16
             113

             245-45ZR-16
             132

             18X10
             840
             546
             504





            P255-50ZR-16
             118

             205-40ZR-17
             125





             TE37




            215-40ZR-17
             127

             205-50ZR-17
             108

             VOLK IIII
             -35%

             15X6
             365
             255
             237

            215-45ZR-17
             128

             215-40ZR-17
             130

             17X7
             655
             425

             15X6.5
             375
             262
             244

            235-45ZR-17
             130

             215-45ZR-17
             133

             17X8
             675
             438

             15X7
             385
             269
             250

            245-45ZR-17
             132

             225-45ZR-17
             135

             17X9
             695
             451

             15X7.5
             395
             276
             257

            255-45ZR-17
             140

             235-40ZR-17
             137

             17X10
             750
             487

             16X7
             450
             315
             293

            255-40ZR-17
             138

             235-45ZR-17
             136

             18X7.5
             755
             490

             16X8
             465
             325
             302

            275-40ZR-17
             155

             245-40ZR-17
             139

             18X8
             765
             497

             17X7.5
             565
             395
             367




             245-45ZR-17
             138

             18X9
             775
             503

             17X8.5
             585
             409
             380




             255-40ZR-17
             145

             18X10
             785
             510

             17X9
             595
             416
             387




             265-40-ZR-17
             150





             17X9.5
             600
             420
             390




             225-40ZR-18
             175

             SEBRING


             18X7.5
             620
             434
             403




             235-40ZR-18
             185

             ITC
             LIST


             18X8.5
             640
             448
             416




             255-35ZR-18
             205

             17X7
             390
             253
             234
             18X9
             650
             455
             423




             265-35ZR-18
             220

             18X7.5
             450
             292
             270
             18X9.5
             655
             458
             426







             18X8.5
             470
             305
             282











             18X9.5
             490
             318









For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 20 07:13:02 1998
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From: "Todd D Shelton" <tds@brightok.net>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Wheels - converted for viewing
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:16:53 -0600
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Ok - since posting to the list totally
destroyed the format I have converted the
excel file to an html - it looks like it came out
fine.  Here it is :

http://www.brightok.net/~tds/wheels.htm


- tds

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 20 07:40:46 1998
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From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Wheels - converted for viewing
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:40:30 -0500
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Todd! That WWW presentation is even more understandable than the original
XLS!  Thanks.

-Bob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Todd D Shelton
> Sent: Friday, November 20, 1998 10:17 AM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Team3S: Wheels - converted for viewing
>
>
> Ok - since posting to the list totally
> destroyed the format I have converted the
> excel file to an html - it looks like it came out
> fine.  Here it is :
>
> http://www.brightok.net/~tds/wheels.htm
>
>
> - tds
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 20 07:47:00 1998
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Todd, thanks. Much appreciated.
Arty

In a message dated 11/20/98 7:13:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, tds@brightok.net
writes:

<< Subj: Team3S: Wheels - converted for viewing
Date: 11/20/98 7:13:43 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: tds@brightok.net (Todd D Shelton)
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Reply-to: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com

Ok - since posting to the list totally
destroyed the format I have converted the
excel file to an html - it looks like it came out
fine.  Here it is :

http://www.brightok.net/~tds/wheels.htm

  >>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 20 08:10:20 1998
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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 16:52:09 +0100
From: Jim Matthews <matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: 1.05 Bar
References: <365449BC.D5E3FA8B@bc.sympatico.ca> <3654FA71.5723@execpc.com>
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xwing wrote:
>
> ps has anyone with AVCR or other injection pulse monitor and stock
> injectors/no VPC seen duty cycle with boost as you adjust 14,15,16 etc
> psi?  When do they max out?

I see my SAVC-R display start blinking right around 6000-6500
RPMs, which is the same time that boost pressure begins to fall
from 1.0 bar (or is that kg/cm^2 on the AVC-R, Barry?).  Stock
injectors and 9B turbos.  Why do you ask?  This doesn't reflect
your setup... are you thinking about giving me all of your
upgrades and reverting your car to stock?  :-)

-Jim
--
Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de (64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews

*** 3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 70/84% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Bosch Winged Wipers
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Metal Matrix brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, TS (so far): 166mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 20 09:21:15 1998
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Barry E. King wrote:

                                 <snip>

Make sure you know what your controller reads.  Some read bar, some read

> kilogram/cm^2.
>
> 1 bar = 14.504 psi
> 1 kg/cm^2 = 14.223 psi
> 1 atmosphere = 14.67

So, given this and Jim's recent comment.....on the SAVC-R, when I dial in 1.00...it is
actually less than 1 bar because it reads in kg/cm^2...hence a relatively
safe/conservative setting.  And, I would assume then, that what I have referred to as
1.05 bar, is actually not that either, and again a safer setting with the SAVC-R.  I'll
ride with these settings for awhile..better safe than not, and I am glad I purchased a
BC... rather than spending a couple of bucks on a bleeder valve to modify an infinitly
much more expensive piece of technology.


Thanks  Barry...your posts are clear and to the point.

Darcy

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 20 09:30:42 1998
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Jim Matthews wrote:

> xwing wrote:
> >
> > ps has anyone with AVCR or other injection pulse monitor and stock
> > injectors/no VPC seen duty cycle with boost as you adjust 14,15,16 etc
> > psi?  When do they max out?
>
> I see my SAVC-R display start blinking right around 6000-6500
> RPMs, which is the same time that boost pressure begins to fall
> from 1.0 bar (or is that kg/cm^2 on the AVC-R, Barry?).  Stock
> injectors and 9B turbos.  Why do you ask?  This doesn't reflect
> your setup... are you thinking about giving me all of your
> upgrades and reverting your car to stock?  :-)
>

Hi Jim;

I haven't been running my setup long enough to feel real comforatable commenting on or
advising on it. But, it seems to behave at 6000-6500 as you discribe Jim.  I think maybe
the question was just a short quiz. : )

Darcy

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 20 10:01:58 1998
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Reply-To: stealth-3000gt


------ =_NextPart_000_01BE146C.D86258E0
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Arty/Bob/others...

The problem may be having Office 97. I saved the file back to Win95/v5.0 of Excel. Try it now

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4


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------ =_NextPart_000_01BE146C.D86258E0--

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 20 14:35:11 1998
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From: "Bill Miller" <millebi@kw.igs.net>
Organization: Very little ... as always
To: "Eric Lotter" <elotter@hotmail.com>, stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 17:36:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Team3S: Rear end shutter under heavye boost/High RPMS
In-reply-to: <19981118224249.27566.qmail@hotmail.com>
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Here's a stupid question...

Could the problem be related to an air bubble being sucked into the fuel pump and causing
an intermittant loss of fuel pressure? Isn't there a screen or something on the fuel
pickup to stop bubbles from being sucked up? (I'm assuming that when you say high RPMs in
Third, that you are accelerating).

Bill
91 TT "Old Red"

On 18 Nov 98, at 14:42, Eric Lotter wrote:

> none were really tested, however, I was able to reproduce the problem in a
> second car, where the conditions were, low fuel, high RPMS in third. It
> was not rev limited, but may have been some kind of fule cut/power
> transfer condition.
>
> Eric

Humpty Dumpty was pushed...
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 20 20:45:36 1998
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From: "Robert T. Rand" <rtr@vnet.net>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: Wheel Prices (converted file)...
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 14:03:34 -0500
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Chris, Worked great, Thanks .

I liked the way Todd put that baby up too.

Its nice to have some tec heads around.

Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: 'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com' <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Friday, November 20, 1998 1:07 PM
Subject: Team3S: RE: Wheel Prices (converted file)...


>Arty/Bob/others...
>
>The problem may be having Office 97. I saved the file back to Win95/v5.0 of
Excel. Try it now
>
>Looking forward...Chris
>
>"Friends don't let friends ride with me"
>
>1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4
>
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov 21 16:27:39 1998
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Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 18:27:21 -0600
From: Jeff Crabtree <wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com>
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Ok kids,

I've got my car pics scanned and ready to fly.  Who can I send them to
that would post them for me?

--
-Jeff Crabtree
   '91 Stealth R/T Turbo(slightly dented)
      '93 Jeep YJ Wrangler Sport
          St. Louis, MO


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov 21 19:53:07 1998
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Subject: Team3S: HKS GT-2835 Turbos & GT-368SX Turbos
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HKS GT-2835 Turbos. Anyone have some more details on these turbos?
Also, on GT Alleys GT-368SX Turbos...Anyone running these?
I'm trying to compare the two.
Arty 91 VR-4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov 22 05:25:18 1998
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From: "Palamara, Peter" <pala@gwl.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: HKS GT-2835 Turbos & GT-368SX Turbos
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 06:22:10 -0700
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Arty, the hks 2835 is what bozz speed sells for their upgrade, its a
huge ballbearing turbo that will set you back in your seat just for the
price of one (about I think 3500 per turbo). Henry said that these kits
from bozz speed were going for a nice healthy price of 12,000 to 15,000
for the whole setup! I have no idea on the gt-alley ones, Brian want to
share some info?????


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Aso8@aol.com [SMTP:Aso8@aol.com]
> Sent: Saturday, November 21, 1998 8:53 PM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Cc: Aso8@aol.com
> Subject: Team3S: HKS GT-2835 Turbos & GT-368SX Turbos
>
>
> HKS GT-2835 Turbos. Anyone have some more details on these turbos?
> Also, on GT Alleys GT-368SX Turbos...Anyone running these?
> I'm trying to compare the two.
> Arty 91 VR-4
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov 23 08:19:39 1998
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Message-ID: <01BE16BA.137C6480.cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'Team3S'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: 15G turbo advice request
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:20:04 -0800
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Howdy folks...

For those of you out there in TT land who have upgraded to 15G turbos, could you help me out with some advice?

What brand did you buy?
>From whom?
How much?
If you installed them yourself, how long did it take?

THANKS!!!

Looking forward...Chris

"Friends don't let friends ride with me"

1995 Glacier Pearl White VR4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov 23 08:25:49 1998
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From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbo advice request
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:25:35 -0500
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Hi,

I got my 15Gs from TEC.  They are Mitsubishi 13Gs with 15G wheels.  Cost me
over $2K -- $2200 or $2300 + shipping, I think.  Installed myself and it
took
a weekend.

-Bob


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov 23 08:42:46 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbo advice request
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:45:36 -0700
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Reply-To: stealth-3000gt

I bought my 15Gs from Miami International in FL.  They cost me roughly
$1800.  They differ from other 15Gs I have seen in that they do NOT have a
tapered bore on the compressor housing inlet.  This was what Dave B. was
going on about on the other list a few weeks back how TEC et al turbos were
so restrictive and how this mod would revolutionize how the 15Gs were built.
Mine came that way from day 1 when I bought them many many months ago.  In
fact it surprised me to know that other manufacturers tapered the bore in
the first place.

The only thing about the MI turbos is that they are not VSR balanced.  After
talking to a few people about VSR I decided that it was an unnecessary
process evidenced by the fact that a number of respected turbo manufacturers
(not turbo resellers but actual designers and builders of the turbos) do not
even use the process.  There are literally only a handful (less than 6) of
VSR facilities in the country.  While theoretically better, it seems to me
that it is simply not required and likely won't make a practical difference
in turbo longevity that any of us will ever see.  According to MI there is
no measurable difference in performance and that benefits can only be
realized over the long term.  Considering modern turbos without VSR
balancing can last 80-100K miles in the first place it doesn't seem
necessary.

MI will do all the mods to the turbos you desire including clipping but they
are not fans of clipping.  They feel that flow can be enhanced to achieve a
similar effect that clipping achieves by porting which is the route I chose.
They also supposedly have some new process they apply to the impeller which
allegedly enhances flow and compressor efficiency.

Miami International Components
142  W. 29th Street
Hialeah, FL
33012
Davis: 305 888-3015
FAX: 305 883-0173


Regards,

Barry

> -----Original Message-----
>
> Howdy folks...
>
> For those of you out there in TT land who have upgraded to 15G
> turbos, could you help me out with some advice?
>
> What brand did you buy?
> From whom?
> How much?
> If you installed them yourself, how long did it take?
>
> THANKS!!!
>
> Looking forward...Chris

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov 23 11:50:41 1998
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From: "GT ALLEY" <thegtalley@email.msn.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: HKS GT-2835 Turbos & GT-368SX Turbos
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:33:11 -0800
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To answer Pete's question, the HKS 2835 set-up is a nice one, although it is
VERY pricey. As far as flow caractaristics are concerned our GT-368SX turbos
are up to the challenge. These are "Hybrids", and will bolt on to your
existing exhaust manifolds. We do suggest of the manifolds (or headers), to
optimize flow to the turbine section. Our turbine section is different from
the other turbos out there, 15G's etc. The GT368SX is a very big unit and
barely fits into the space under the hood. They exhibit about 300rpm's more
lag but provide a whopping top end punch (no boost drop-off). In a
properlytuned and matched vehicle, you will never feel power go away, even
passed the rev limiter. Most of our cars with this set-up run a 8000 rpm rev
limit as the turbos are still pulling at this rpm.

Hope this sheds some light on the subject.

Thanks,
Brian@
The GT ALLEY
3/S Performance Central
-----Original Message-----
From: Palamara, Peter <pala@gwl.com>
To: 'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com' <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Sunday, November 22, 1998 5:28 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: HKS GT-2835 Turbos & GT-368SX Turbos


>Arty, the hks 2835 is what bozz speed sells for their upgrade, its a
>huge ballbearing turbo that will set you back in your seat just for the
>price of one (about I think 3500 per turbo). Henry said that these kits
>from bozz speed were going for a nice healthy price of 12,000 to 15,000
>for the whole setup! I have no idea on the gt-alley ones, Brian want to
>share some info?????
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Aso8@aol.com [SMTP:Aso8@aol.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, November 21, 1998 8:53 PM
>> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>> Cc: Aso8@aol.com
>> Subject: Team3S: HKS GT-2835 Turbos & GT-368SX Turbos
>>
>>
>> HKS GT-2835 Turbos. Anyone have some more details on these turbos?
>> Also, on GT Alleys GT-368SX Turbos...Anyone running these?
>> I'm trying to compare the two.
>> Arty 91 VR-4
>> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov 23 15:35:50 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: 15G turbo advice request
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In the predawn dimness of the late twentieth century Barry E. King wrote:

>  ... Considering modern turbos without VSR
> balancing can last 80-100K miles in the first place it doesn't seem
> necessary.

Ouch Barry!! Are you saying I'm in for a drain on some major pocket change shortly...or
is  this aggresive 80-100K's ...or,  are you saying miles there? It's unclear which.
Either way, has anyone (how about ole red before his demise) squeezed a few more
K's/miles out of these suckers than that?? I know, I know, if you cann't afford it, you
shouldn't be driving it...which begs the question of 2 dollar aquarium valves.

Darcy
92 TT Stealth

PS. What If.... Insurance Companies started to monitor lists like this and you got
surprise premium increases in the mail, based on your posted mods..... Okay, okay,  I'll
shut up!!  : )

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov 23 15:49:45 1998
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From: "Palamara, Peter" <pala@gwl.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbo advice request
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If that was the case jeesh I'll be in for a big suprise x-mas present...
I have had my ihi hybrids from Tec for this one summer of running the
car and have no problems with them. And these where complete hand
manufactured, the  compressors had to be specially made since ihi's use
a different shaft(larger) than the mistu's. So I think they will last
for along time from now. Very reputable company.

Pete Palamara
92 3000vr-4(GTO)
500 hp of Fun
(303)689-4733


> PS. What If.... Insurance Companies started to monitor lists like this
> and you got
> surprise premium increases in the mail, based on your posted mods.....
> Okay, okay,  I'll
> shut up!!  : )
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov 23 16:08:49 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 15G turbo advice request
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:11:09 -0700
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That was a conservative life in miles for typical turbos.  Many people have
over 100K miles without any turbo problems.  I would them to last less if
they are spinning a lot of the time.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
>
> In the predawn dimness of the late twentieth century Barry E. King wrote:
>
> >  ... Considering modern turbos without VSR
> > balancing can last 80-100K miles in the first place it doesn't seem
> > necessary.
>
> Ouch Barry!! Are you saying I'm in for a drain on some major
> pocket change shortly...or
> is  this aggresive 80-100K's ...or,  are you saying miles there?
> It's unclear which.
> Either way, has anyone (how about ole red before his demise)
> squeezed a few more
> K's/miles out of these suckers than that?? I know, I know, if you
> cann't afford it, you
> shouldn't be driving it...which begs the question of 2 dollar
> aquarium valves.
>
> Darcy
> 92 TT Stealth

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov 23 17:50:50 1998
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Yo team;

Someone please wash away my ignorance and explain K Miles to me? I was
under the impression that K was kilometeres, and Miles was miles, and
until now I thought of K Miles was just an improprer blending of the two
terms. Barry used the term(s) recently in a post, and I have just had
another private post using the same designation.  ??????? It must mean
more than I am aware of. So for the benifit of this crazy Canuck and any
others who are similarly confused, please dispell the ignorance.

Darc

92 TT  ...smoking fast now...seat of the pants fun.

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov 23 18:02:07 1998
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From: "Bob Rand" <rtr@vnet.net>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: K miles
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Reply-To: stealth-3000gt

1000 = 1k
-----Original Message-----
From: wce@bc.sympatico.ca <wce@bc.sympatico.ca>
To: Team3S <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Monday, November 23, 1998 8:53 PM
Subject: Team3S: K miles


>Yo team;
>
>Someone please wash away my ignorance and explain K Miles to me? I was
>under the impression that K was kilometeres, and Miles was miles, and
>until now I thought of K Miles was just an improprer blending of the two
>terms. Barry used the term(s) recently in a post, and I have just had
>another private post using the same designation.  ??????? It must mean
>more than I am aware of. So for the benifit of this crazy Canuck and any
>others who are similarly confused, please dispell the ignorance.
>
>Darc
>
>92 TT  ...smoking fast now...seat of the pants fun.
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov 23 18:08:01 1998
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From: "Brad Bedell" <bbedell@texas.net>
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Subject: Team3S: K miles= thousand miles
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 20:05:38 -0600
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For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov 23 18:16:56 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: K miles
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 19:19:53 -0700
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A "K" is 1000 somethings.  K as in 1000 (1024 in the computer world).

So 1 K miles = 1000 miles

$1K = $1000

etc...

Km is the abbreviation for kilometers.


Barry


> -----Original Message-----
> Yo team;
>
> Someone please wash away my ignorance and explain K Miles to me? I was
> under the impression that K was kilometeres, and Miles was miles, and
> until now I thought of K Miles was just an improprer blending of the two
> terms. Barry used the term(s) recently in a post, and I have just had
> another private post using the same designation.  ??????? It must mean
> more than I am aware of. So for the benifit of this crazy Canuck and any
> others who are similarly confused, please dispell the ignorance.
>
> Darc

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov 23 18:22:29 1998
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To: wce@bc.sympatico.ca, stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:23:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Team3S: K miles
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You are correct in that K = kilometres... it also means Thousand.

Therefore 102K Miles = 102,000 Miles.
and thus...   102K K = 102,000 Kilometers  = 102,000,000 Meters!!

Standard metric "divisions" :

Exa        - 1 x 10^ 18                (Holy crap ... humungous)
Peta       - 1 x 10^ 15                (Huge  !!!)
Tera       - 1,000,000,000,000 (Trillion)
Giga       - 1,000,000,000       (Billion)
Mega     - 1,000,000               (Million)
Kilo        - 1,000                       (Thousand)
---           One of course          (Metre, Byte, bit, etc...)
milli        - 1/1000                     (Thousanth)
micro     - 1/1,000,000            (Millionth) [micron]
nano      - 1/1,000,000,000     (Billionth)
pico       - 1/1,000,000,000,000 (Trillionth)
femto     - 1/10^15                    (Too small)

(I may have left out one between Pico and femto... but you get my drift.)

I put in the extras in case anyone was interested in knowing the standard computer talk
for MB, GB, and TB (Mega Bytes, Giga Bytes, and Tera Bytes), not to be confused with Mb,
Gb and Tb (Mega bits, Giga bits, and Tera bits).

Also in "Computer speak" 1 K isn't actually 1,000 it's 1024 (2^10) and a Mega Byte is
1048576 Bytes (2^20), although most people talk about Meg and Gig meaning "Round Meg" or
1,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 Bytes respectively.

Bill
91 TT "Old Red"

On 23 Nov 98, at 17:48, wce@bc.sympatico.ca wrote:
> Someone please wash away my ignorance and explain K Miles to me? I was
> under the impression that K was kilometeres, and Miles was miles, and
> until now I thought of K Miles was just an improprer blending of the two
> terms. Barry used the term(s) recently in a post, and I have just had
> another private post using the same designation.
>
> Darc
Humpty Dumpty was pushed...
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov 23 19:10:19 1998
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Bill Miller and 1 K others wrote:

> You are correct in that K = kilometres... it also means Thousand.
>

Duh, yeah okay I get it !! What was I thinking...guess I wasn't.

BTW there  were whole bunch of you silent until a minute ago : )

Best

Darc

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov 23 21:43:01 1998
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Bill Miller wrote:

> You are correct in that K = kilometres... it also means Thousand.
>
> Therefore 102K Miles = 102,000 Miles.
> and thus...   102K K = 102,000 Kilometers  = 102,000,000 Meters!!
>
> Standard metric "divisions" :
>
> Exa        - 1 x 10^ 18                (Holy crap ... humungous)
> Peta       - 1 x 10^ 15                (Huge  !!!)
> Tera       - 1,000,000,000,000 (Trillion)
> Giga       - 1,000,000,000       (Billion)
> Mega     - 1,000,000               (Million)
> Kilo        - 1,000                       (Thousand)
> ---           One of course          (Metre, Byte, bit, etc...)
> milli        - 1/1000                     (Thousanth)
> micro     - 1/1,000,000            (Millionth) [micron]
> nano      - 1/1,000,000,000     (Billionth)
> pico       - 1/1,000,000,000,000 (Trillionth)
> femto     - 1/10^15                    (Too small)
>

Jeeze Bill.....the guy asks what time it is and you tell him how to build a clock.  I have
to admit though that was a rather cool explaination.


--
-Jeff Crabtree
   '91 Stealth R/T Turbo(A.K.A.  parking lot paperweight right now)
      '93 Jeep YJ Wrangler Sport
          St. Louis, MO


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov 23 21:48:36 1998
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Barry E. King wrote:

> That was a conservative life in miles for typical turbos.  Many people have
> over 100K miles without any turbo problems.  I would them to last less if
> they are spinning a lot of the time.
>

My car has 149(K),000 on it and up until last monday, the turbo's were still kickin'
although the back one has had a slight oil leak in it for a LONG time now.  There was a
slight oil film on the inside of the piping going to the intercooler.  Never really
caused a performance problem though.

--
-Jeff Crabtree
   '91 Stealth R/T Turbo(fubar)
      '93 Jeep YJ Wrangler Sport
          St. Louis, MO


--------------B6A54A5F35028BFC46027394
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<HTML>
&nbsp;

<P>Barry E. King wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>That was a conservative life in miles for typical
turbos.&nbsp; Many people have
<BR>over 100K miles without any turbo problems.&nbsp; I would them to last
less if
<BR>they are spinning a lot of the time.
<BR><A HREF="http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm"></A>&nbsp;</BLOCKQUOTE>
My car has 149(K),000 on it and up until last monday, the turbo's were
still kickin' although the back one has had a slight oil leak in it for
a LONG time now.&nbsp; There was a slight oil film on the inside of the
piping going to the intercooler.&nbsp; Never really caused a performance
problem though.&nbsp;

<P>--
<BR>-Jeff Crabtree
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; '91 Stealth R/T Turbo(fubar)
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; '93 Jeep YJ Wrangler Sport
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; St. Louis, MO
<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>

--------------B6A54A5F35028BFC46027394--

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Nov 23 22:03:20 1998
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Jeff Crabtree wrote:

>>
>
> My car has 149(K),000 on it and up until last monday, the turbo's were
> still kickin' although the back one has had a slight oil leak in it
> for a LONG time now.  There was a slight oil film on the inside of the
> piping going to the intercooler.  Never really caused a performance
> problem though.

Now that sounds better. Thanks Jeff....the sweating has stopped.  I may
not get that much out of  mine (I hope so though)  but until your post I
was beginning to think I'd have to start putting some serious coin
aside. I just bought the Apexi, am now upgrading the computer (so I can
have a site like some you guys) and suddenly, I  saw my bank account
passing before my eyes. The muscles have nearly relaxed now....I think
I'll be okay.

Best

Darc

92 TT Stealth (40K K's)

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 24 08:11:07 1998
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Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:10:48 EST
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Cc: Aso8@aol.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Team3S: Arty's 11 Second VR-4 monster for sale.
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For anyone seriously interested E-mail me & I'll send you the details. The
only thing it needs is a clutch and I'm going to include a brand new one with
the sale. If you act immediately you can choose the clutch. It has about 637HP
runs 11.41 @ 124.32 MPH last run in October 17. I guaranty it runs low 11 no
problem. Comes with six 18 inch chrome rims, four 17 inch alum alloy 8 tires &
many parts. Street legal with new High flow cat included. Price is $22500.00.
Located in NY area.

For everybody else, If I sell this one, I want to build a track car. What I
have to do to my VR-4 is to butcher it. Its much to beautiful for that. If I
can sell this one, I'm going to start fresh with a VR-4 shell I can get
salvage and butcher that. I'll also need to buy a truck to take it to & from
the track. The new setup will be much different then what I'm running...Rear
wheel drive for huge slicks etc. I know "will it still be a VR-4" we can
debate that when I'm running 8's. I see no chance of competing with the 9 sec
cars with my existing setup. I want to build a VR-4 that can win against the
likes of Vinny 10's Supra & Adams RX-7 etc.
Arty 91 VR-4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 24 11:48:06 1998
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Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:47:49 -0600
From: Jeff Crabtree <wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com>
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Aso8@aol.com wrote:

> For everybody else, If I sell this one, I want to build a track car. What I
> have to do to my VR-4 is to butcher it. Its much to beautiful for that. If I
> can sell this one, I'm going to start fresh with a VR-4 shell I can get
> salvage and butcher that.

Hey Arty....Depending on what the outcome is on my crash situation...I may have the
perfect "shell" for you to build from.  If my car can't reasonably be fixed and they
want to total it out....I'll make sure you get first dibs if interested.  It would be an
honor to know that my baby went to a good home.

--
-Jeff Crabtree
   '91 Stealth R/T Turbo
      '93 Jeep YJ Wrangler Sport
          St. Louis, MO


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 24 11:51:40 1998
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Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:51:18 -0600
From: Jeff Crabtree <wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com>
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To: "stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>,
        stealth@starnet.net, Teri <icunurse@juno.com>, DSirkus@aol.com,
        STLHottie@aol.com, toteach2lv@aol.com,
        Sara Watkins <sprite@stlnet.com>, Tammy <tgroppe@concentric.net>,
        Kianthomas@aol.com, ajacobs595@aol.com, Peleuses@aol.com,
        apmedia@pacbell.net, cgordon@cruz.isle.net, coinco@aol.com,
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Subject: Team3S: Re: My car is DEAD!
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--------------87FCB1FCBF3123A64F5F7041
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Jeff Crabtree wrote:

> Well boys and girls,
>
>     <<<SNIP>>>
>
> WHAM!!!!
>
> I was hit HARD by an ambulance.....no lights....no siren....not even an
> F-ing patient in transit.  Just two female EMT's having what must have
> been an extraordinarly interesting conversation....not paying attention
> to the road or the traffic signals.  They had to have been going at
> least 30 MPH.
>
> <<<SNIP>>> I'm going to miss my baby.
>
> <<<SNIP>>>
>
> Hope everybody's day was better than mine.  Glad I just bought a second
> car.  I'm going to need it.
>

If you guys want to see the wreck pics, Todd Shelton from the Starnet list
has been nice enough to post them for me.  You can see them @:


http://www.brightok.net/~tds/jeffc.html

Or just click here if you're using a REAL browser---> Jeff Crabtree



--
-Jeff Crabtree
   '91 Stealth R/T Turbo
      '93 Jeep YJ Wrangler Sport
          St. Louis, MO


--------------87FCB1FCBF3123A64F5F7041
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<HTML>
&nbsp;

<P>Jeff Crabtree wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Well boys and girls,

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;&lt;&lt;SNIP>>>

<P>WHAM!!!!

<P>I was hit HARD by an ambulance.....no lights....no siren....not even
an
<BR>F-ing patient in transit.&nbsp; Just two female EMT's having what must
have
<BR>been an extraordinarly interesting conversation....not paying attention
<BR>to the road or the traffic signals.&nbsp; They had to have been going
at
<BR>least 30 MPH.

<P>&lt;&lt;&lt;SNIP>>> I'm going to miss my baby.

<P>&lt;&lt;&lt;SNIP>>>

<P>Hope everybody's day was better than mine.&nbsp; Glad I just bought
a second
<BR>car.&nbsp; I'm going to need it.
<BR>&nbsp;</BLOCKQUOTE>
If you guys want to see the wreck pics, Todd Shelton from the Starnet list
has been nice enough to post them for me.&nbsp; You can see them @:
<BR>&nbsp;

<P>&nbsp;<A HREF="http://www.brightok.net/~tds/jeffc.html">http://www.brightok.net/~tds/jeffc.html</A>

<P>Or just click here if you're using a REAL browser---> <A HREF="http://www.brightok.net/~tds/jeffc.html">Jeff
Crabtree</A>
<BR>&nbsp;
<BR>&nbsp;

<P>--
<BR>-Jeff Crabtree
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; '91 Stealth R/T Turbo
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; '93 Jeep YJ Wrangler Sport
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; St. Louis, MO
<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>

--------------87FCB1FCBF3123A64F5F7041--

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Nov 24 12:33:48 1998
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Arty's 11 Second VR-4 monster for sale.
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Not a bad idea. All I need is a rolling shell
Arty

In a message dated 11/24/98 11:49:04 AM Pacific Standard Time,
wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com writes:

<< ubj: Re: Team3S: Arty's 11 Second VR-4 monster for sale.
Date: 11/24/98 11:49:04 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com (Jeff Crabtree)
Sender: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Reply-to: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com



Aso8@aol.com wrote:

> For everybody else, If I sell this one, I want to build a track car. What I
> have to do to my VR-4 is to butcher it. Its much to beautiful for that. If
I
> can sell this one, I'm going to start fresh with a VR-4 shell I can get
> salvage and butcher that.

Hey Arty....Depending on what the outcome is on my crash situation...I may
have the
perfect "shell" for you to build from.  If my car can't reasonably be fixed
and they
want to total it out....I'll make sure you get first dibs if interested.  It
would be an
honor to know that my baby went to a good home.

--
-Jeff Crabtree
    '91 Stealth R/T Turbo
       '93 Jeep YJ Wrangler Sport
           St. Louis, MO
  >>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 25 00:47:26 1998
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From: josesini <josesini@engin.umich.edu>
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Well, I finally got my transmission rebuilt and installed with the ACT
racing clutch.

The best news is that since it uses a 6 puck copper-ceramic solid disk,
it doesn't need any break-in period.  Let me just say that this clutch
is like an ON/OFF switch.  It is definitely not for the faint hearted
drivers.  For city driving it's OK, but you must get used to reving up
to 2000rpm at each stop sign/red light, otherwise the car just shakes
and stalls. A little too high lets say 3000 rpms and the tires break
loose (at least the front ones) mind you that I have 1/32" thread left
on Eagles GS-Cs and it is cold here (in the low 40s).  Wow what a
feeling!

Unfortunately the transmission rebuild requires a 500 - 700 mile
break-in period, so no hard launches until then.  I will post an update
on the transmission rebuild by TRICO and the clutch performance during
hard launches/fast shifting after the break-in period of the
transmission is over.

So far I'm very happy with this clutch and I know it has the power to
hold everything I have to give it!

Jose
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Nov 25 04:06:20 1998
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From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: ACT clutch.
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 07:06:06 -0500
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Glad to hear that you're back running, Joe.  I think it's the other way
around: copper-ceramic puck clutches most definitely DO need a 500+ mile
breakin.  On the other hand, I've never heard of a transaxle needing a
break-in.

-Bob

> The best news is that since it uses a 6 puck copper-ceramic solid disk,
> it doesn't need any break-in period.

> Unfortunately the transmission rebuild requires a 500 - 700 mile
> break-in period, so no hard launches until then.  I will post an update
> on the transmission rebuild by TRICO and the clutch performance during
> hard launches/fast shifting after the break-in period of the
> transmission is over.

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 26 00:19:53 1998
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Alterations for boost increase
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Could somebody comment on the following please.
What is the benefit of platinum tip plugs when incraesing boost?
It was recomended to me to change the fuel filter before increasing the
boost, does this have to be a special type of fuel filter or can it be
an original one?
Why is it necessary to change the fuel filter before the boost is
increased? ( Obviously it has to do with maintaining adequate fuel flow
under higher boost but is it because the older the filter is, the more
clogged it is likely to be? My car has done 80,000km )
BTW, Roger,...on the dyno results you have on your web page, your car
produced 284hp at 6.5psi & with the bleeder 352hp at 10psi. Does this
mean that your car when it was stock produced a maximum boost of 6.5psi?
Or are there different places that the boost can be measured that lead
to different boost levels being obtained? I was under the impression
that the first gen. cars ran about 8psi & produced 280hp & the second
gen. 3000's ran about 12psi & produced 320hp, but you got 352hp at
10psi? Could you plesae explain this as I'm wanting to increase my cars
boost to 12psi, but if I get results similar to yours it will produce hp
in the high 300's.
Thanks
Andrew
Australia
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 26 00:39:33 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Alterations for boost increase
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 01:42:30 -0700
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> Could somebody comment on the following please.

> What is the benefit of platinum tip plugs when incraesing boost?

GOOD (read NGK) platinum tip plugs last longer than copper and display
higher horsepower at 6000 RPM and above due to more concentrated spark
energy DESPITE what some people argue about copper being better conductors.
The platinums are better at higher RPMs.  Platinum plugs also maintain their
gap longer than copper (they last longer).

> It was recomended to me to change the fuel filter before increasing the
> boost, does this have to be a special type of fuel filter or can it be
> an original one?
> Why is it necessary to change the fuel filter before the boost is
> increased? ( Obviously it has to do with maintaining adequate fuel flow
> under higher boost but is it because the older the filter is, the more
> clogged it is likely to be? My car has done 80,000km )

The point here is to ensure you have adeqaute fuel supply.  A dirty or
marginal filter will reduce fuel supply.  This may be okay for a stock
engine but is not cool when pouring on the boost and therefore increasing
fuel deamnds.  Stock is "okay" but the banjo fittings are definitely not
conducive to optimal flow.  If you want to get serious a good free-flowing
inline filter with proper AN fittings is the right thing to do.  Short of
that a new stock filter should be fine.  It all depends on how far you want
to go and how much money you want to spend.


> BTW, Roger,...on the dyno results you have on your web page, your car
> produced 284hp at 6.5psi & with the bleeder 352hp at 10psi. Does this
> mean that your car when it was stock produced a maximum boost of 6.5psi?
> Or are there different places that the boost can be measured that lead
> to different boost levels being obtained? I was under the impression
> that the first gen. cars ran about 8psi & produced 280hp & the second
> gen. 3000's ran about 12psi & produced 320hp, but you got 352hp at
> 10psi? Could you plesae explain this as I'm wanting to increase my cars
> boost to 12psi, but if I get results similar to yours it will produce hp
> in the high 300's.

US 91-93 models had boost levels up to 9.5 psi and rated 300 HP.  94+ was
12.5 psi at 320 HP.  However, the specification for boost is extremely
broad.  Most people don't seem to see the actual 9.5 psi that is supposed to
be there in the 91-93 models.  I don't know what other people with 94+ are
experiencing with the stock setup.  When I bought my '94 I saw 12.5 psi all
the time.  For some reason it started gradually dropping off to the point
where it was around 6.5-8 psi depending upon whatever.  The dealer refused
to acknowledge a problem existed because it was within the specification in
their books!  I never actually did solve that problem.  15Gs seemed to help
*grin*.  After seeing the innards of my engine and the condition of the
rings I suspect the previous owner beat the poor thing and my adding 15Gs to
the mix and a heavy foot just exacerbated the problem.


> Thanks
> Andrew
> Australia


Regards,

Barry

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 26 06:20:25 1998
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From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Alterations for boost increase
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 09:20:09 -0500
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> After seeing the innards of my engine and the condition of the
> rings I suspect the previous owner beat the poor thing and my
> adding 15Gs to the mix and a heavy foot just exacerbated the problem.

Hi Barry,

You didn't mention the role that the TRE MASC played in your case.  Do you
think that the ability to adjust the A/F ratio to a lean mixture contributed
to the melted pistons?  How about the cylinder walls?  Scored cylinder walls
and deteriorated rings during a meltdown is not uncommon.  I'd have to think
that the problem was brought on more by an extreme lean condition more than
by the previous owner or by adding 15Gs.  If I'm not mistaken, you've got
550CC injectors and an upgraded fuel pump, right?  My observations are that
the recent rash of 15G owners that achieved "meltdown" status had
experimented with the spark retard or increased A/F ratio.

Before I purchase a TRE MASC system based on a possibly out-dated
recommendation, your most current opinion about the product, including
safety measures to prevent engine damage would be helpful to us all.

Thanks,

-Bob

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 26 07:52:02 1998
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Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:49:34 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Alterations for boost increase
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Hey Andrew,

> What is the benefit of platinum tip plugs when incraesing boost?

The plugs you already have are platinum NGKs (if not changed by anyone) and they
are the ones to go with. I changed them at the 60k service but they looked
pretty good.

> It was recomended to me to change the fuel filter before increasing the
> boost, does this have to be a special type of fuel filter or can it be
> an original one?

Barry fully answered this. As the engine was apart we also changed the filter
because there was easy access. I don't know what quality of gas you run but here
the filter was no problem on mine. No, I think it is no key player for high
boost, especially not for anything under 18psi or so !

> BTW, Roger,...on the dyno results you have on your web page, your car
> produced 284hp at 6.5psi & with the bleeder 352hp at 10psi. Does this
> mean that your car when it was stock produced a maximum boost of 6.5psi?

First, these are figures for the 13Gs our stock EU cars have and the 352hp are
measured with 0.75bars of boost (10.9psi) It is correct that the wastegates open
that early in stock setup so the boost was limited to 6.5psi in the EU model.
Now after the rebuild I run the car for about 600km on stock boost and now
increased to 0.75bars and will go up later :)

> Could you plesae explain this as I'm wanting to increase my cars
> boost to 12psi, but if I get results similar to yours it will produce hp
> in the high 300's.

Well, as you also have access to the dyno the figures will then tell the truth.
As you are having the smaller 9B turbos you'll find less boost at the top. With
the same ~11psi I ran I'd suggest you'd getting 330-340hp and with 12psi the
figure will be around 350hp (roughly said ~10hp per psi). This is what I have
found by changing the Blitz parameters on the dyno and measuring the boost
level.

Barry, I also experienced that the stock boost level got lower over the years.
The dealer told me that this is due to the springs in the wg actuators are
getting weaker and therefore the wg opens earlier. As we now are having boost
controllers this is of no interest anymore :)

My mechanic always measured boost at the front wastegate actuator. Well, he was
of no luck with the BC solenoid in place. He thought that there is something
totally wrong as there was no boost build up visible (grin, hehe). I had to
teach him a little and he now measures boost at the blow off valve line or the
rear tap of the manifold.

Hope this helps and let us now your dyno results ;-)

----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,SBOV,
Borla,OZ Mito2,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,Bremsa brakes,Pagid RS-R pads
Visit my homepage under: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 26 08:27:59 1998
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References: <000001be186b$fb262160$0201a8c0@mitspc.securitytechnologies.com> <365D0FAB.2FEB@ozemail.com.au> <365D788E.77E1B43E@swissonline.ch>
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R.G. wrote:

> Now after the rebuild I run the car for about 600km on stock boost and now
> increased to 0.75bars and will go up later :)
>

Hey Roger, if I read this correctly,  it sounds like you have your machine back up and
running. Good deal!! Mobile again!

Darc

PS:  Sorry to all who endured my essentially blonde moment with the K question...brain
fell out and had to be picked up with dirt and lint clinging to it, and placed back in
cranium.

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 26 09:53:07 1998
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In a message dated 11/26/98 9:20:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
<< Before I purchase a TRE MASC system based on a possibly out-dated
recommendation, your most current opinion about the product, including
safety measures to prevent engine damage would be helpful to us all.
  >>

All,

   As far as the TRE MASC goes, it is probably the best tuning device I've
come accross for the Stealth/3000GT VR4.  Its also has the widest spectrum of
tunability of any after-market tuning device for us Stealth/VR4ers so if
someone isn't sure what they are doing, it would be VERY easy to put a few
nice sized holes through the pistons, bend a few rods, and melt all the
exhuast valves :).

Basically its like a grand Apex AFC with a larger, unrestrictive mass air
meter and 11 instead of 5 points of adjustment!  Also, instead of operating
off rpms like the AFC, it is load based so it allows a much broader map of
tunability.

Basically the MASC wouldn't cause someones car to blow up unless they are too
agressive with the tuning curves and run exceptionally lean.  But the MASC
comes with two EGT readins, reads the air/fuel ratio, boost level, and
injector duty cycle..  So unless someone was completely ignoring all the
warning beeps that can be programmed into the MASC and the flashing screen
letting you know something definalty isn't right, I believe it would be pretty
hard to melt anything as far as from a tuning standpoint :).

HOWEVER, just a few days ago Dave at TRE decided to stop production of the
MASC.  They deemed it not profitable enough and too complex for the average
person.

I know my MASC is awesome and I'd love to at least have Dave continue making
them for the Stealth/VR4 as he makes them for the Dodge Colts with great
success.  If anyone is interested in the MASC, please e-mial me and I'll
create a list to show Dave there really is a market out there!!

See ya'll,
Mike Mahaffey
'94 Stealth tt
Best et: 11.6 Best mph: 120.7
LotoBoost@aol.com
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 26 09:57:51 1998
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Subject: Team3S: Engine rebuilt - dead battery
References: <000001be186b$fb262160$0201a8c0@mitspc.securitytechnologies.com> <365D0FAB.2FEB@ozemail.com.au> <365D788E.77E1B43E@swissonline.ch> <365D8129.D4D3BC5A@bc.sympatico.ca>
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> Hey Roger, if I read this correctly,  it sounds like you have your machine
> back up and running. Good deal!! Mobile again!

Oh yeah, it's a goood feeling to have the car back, so nice and smooth :) It's a
big differences to the Z28 but I love both cars.

The car runs very well... until I wanted to head home from Munich last Tuesday
:( The car started somewhat hard and finally it wouldn't start anymore after I
filled up the tank. What the &ç* ?? Well, we called a friend from the office and
got the start power from the others car battery. We finally made our way to the
Autobahn by trying to use as less electric power as necessary. After 40 miles
the car felt like it has a hesitation or some cylinders shut off for s short
moment. Uhh ? A few minutes later the same problem and then the car died as I
had to press the clutch pedal fast. I then released the clutch again and the car
went back to live. After the first time the car did this to us about every 30
seconds. No chance to drive home the other 200 miles :(

After some minutes the problem appeared again but this time I noticed that the
lights got heavily dimmed. AHA ! It seems as the battery will not be charged
anymore ... Grrrrr. But then, after speed came back and I released the clutch,
the engine started and the problem went away for the next 20 minutes, very
strange ! To make the story short, I made it to the Swiss border where I knew
that I can call the road assistance if it would die totally. We were very lucky
to make it to the dealer near my hometown where I left the car and called my
neighbour to pick us up.

Yesterday, the dealer called me and told me that the battery is dead. Huh ?? It
worked very well before the new pistons went in and now it is killed ? Ok, the
car is a 93' and this is the original batt, but all batts that got killed by me
(hehe) became weaker and weaker over a longer period than two days ! But the
dealer tested it with an 80Amp kick and voltage went down to 6Volts. Remember,
the starter uses more than 100Amps for a short time ! Also the battery was
charged for 3/4 of its power and all wires where tight. Time for a new battery
and time to spend more money again :( I told them to put a "Fortis" batt in
(expensive but good) then I picked it up in the evening and everything felt
great again.

I made another 150miles today and the car runned without any problem. I also
increased boost to about 0.75bars max at the moment (grin) and it feels really
strong. Also the dealer checked everything for leaks as well as emissions  and
it is better than a new one now :) Compression is over 130psi on all cylinders
and the BOV is not oily anymore. Also I runned the car for some short times up
to 5500rpm and no oil was pressed out the cap anymore. Last but not least, fuel
consumption went down to a never seen level. Below 10L/100km (~24.mil/gal). This
is great for a 5 speed car, but of course I didn't runned more than 0.7bars
boost nor more than 3000rpm for a longer period.
For the cost ... I was quoted by $2900 for material and work but the
after-calculation seems to stop at $3500 excluding the new battery now (with
current exchange rate, about DM 6000) This is not too bad but for me it was not
planned and even more I was not able to install the large turbos and other
performance stuff I bought from Brian (GT Alley) due to missing parts. I wanted
to install them later, maybe in Spring next year but if the money-wise situation
and the business does not become better you'll see some offers here pretty soon.
Well, 1998 was not good to me and my cars :(

Time to boost up again and heading with full throttle to 1999 :)

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,SBOV,
Borla,OZ Mito2,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,Bremsa brakes,Pagid RS-R pads

Visit my homepage under: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 26 10:16:10 1998
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From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Alterations for boost increase - MASC
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 13:15:54 -0500
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Hi Mike,

This is good info.  Load-based tuning -- what is that?

Thanks,

-Bob

> Basically its like a grand Apex AFC with a larger, unrestrictive mass air
> meter and 11 instead of 5 points of adjustment!  Also, instead of
> operating
> off rpms like the AFC, it is load based so it allows a much broader map of
> tunability.

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Alterations for boost increase
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:29:40 -0700
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> -----Original Message-----
> > After seeing the innards of my engine and the condition of the
> > rings I suspect the previous owner beat the poor thing and my
> > adding 15Gs to the mix and a heavy foot just exacerbated the problem.
>
> Hi Barry,
>
> You didn't mention the role that the TRE MASC played in your case.  Do you
> think that the ability to adjust the A/F ratio to a lean mixture
> contributed to the melted pistons?

Althogh that is possible but I suspect I didn't  heed my own advice and just
cranked the boost beyond what was prudent for the fuel I was running.  The
damage to thge pistons was definitely detonation related according to the
post mortem.

Even that being the case it is POSSIBLE that I leaned the car out too much.
Now that would not be the MASC's fault but rather operator error IF it were
the case.  However, there were NO indications of a lean condition in my
engine and the cause of the destruction was "definitely detonation" in the
words of my builder.  The piston tops and valves in the other cylinders are
perfect with no pitting or gaulling (sp?) which would indicate lean
conditions (micro-burns can be associated with lean).

> How about the cylinder walls?  Scored cylinder walls
> and deteriorated rings during a meltdown is not uncommon.

The single score in the single bore that was scored was caused by foreign
matter (read piston/ring parts).  The cross hatch on the cylinder bore is
still otherwise visible.

> I'd have to think that the problem was brought on more by an extreme lean
condition
> more than by the previous owner or by adding 15Gs.

I should have elaborated.  I believe now that I killed my engine.  Me.  I
ran too much boost for the quality of fuel I was running at the time.  I did
not in this case "practise what I preach".  No indications of EGT, O2 sensor
or any other indicator shows that the thing was lean.

What I meant by the previous owner remark was that there were indications
that someone has been into my car before.  The turbos had been off.  Rumor
has it the guy ran the thing hard and harder.  I suspect that although I
pushed it over the edge the engine's days were numbered anyway due to its
history.

> If I'm not mistaken, you've got 550CC injectors and an upgraded fuel pump,
right?  My
> observations are that the recent rash of 15G owners that achieved
"meltdown" status had
> experimented with the spark retard or increased A/F ratio.

I agree.  And it isn't the VPC/GCC or MASC that is to blame IMO.  I firmly
believe (the math is easy and readily available on the web) that 550
injectors are inadequate for a hot 15G setup.   Not enough fuel, plain and
simple.  If you have HKS "550s" then it is even worse since they aren't even
550s -- they are 550s.  Almost none of us run enough fuel pressure.  Almost
none of us have proper fuel lines from tank to engine.  While many people
have run very fast on HKS injectors, they are also in the same category you,
myself, Todd S. and many others are in -- broken engines either due to
detonation or lean burn.

Also, there appears to be inconsistent reports of the ACTUAL flow of the HKS
pump.   It is claimed to be 90 gph (240 lph) at presumably 43 PSI with 12 v
wiring.  According to my information that is not true.  I'd like to see
someone test one.  I bought the biggest ND pump available from their
worldwide catalog -- it is rated at 260 lph at 43 psi 12v wiring.  290 lph
at14 v wiring.  According to my calculations this is a marginal pump for a
600+ HP application.

> Before I purchase a TRE MASC system based on a possibly out-dated
> recommendation, your most current opinion about the product, including
> safety measures to prevent engine damage would be helpful to us all.

Understood.  So far I have no evidence to suggest that the MASC itself is at
fault.  Although running too lean case cause detonation, that was not the
case in my situation.

That is not to say that one could not lean the engine out so much that they
melted it using the MASC since it is so adjustable.  You could theoretically
do the same thing with any other mixture device however.  The MASC has no
built in safe gaurds.  To my knowledge, no aftermarket fuel control,
including complete ECMs, has built-in safegaurds against running lean.

I still believe the MASC is the way to go but with the caveat that it is a
very powerful tool and not for people who cannot tune or do not have access
to a good tuner.  It is not "plug and play".


> Thanks,
>
> -Bob

Hope that helps.  Fire away if there's anything I need to clarify.


Regards,

Barry

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 26 10:28:19 1998
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Hi Dave;

The MASC would seem to be the next informed and logical step to take...but your
information on production discontinuation doesn't sound encouraging. For some of us,
committing to such a purchase occurs when extra unspent coins appear in one's pockets.
Depending on the unexpected (Roger's case being a good example) this can occur later,
rather than sooner. What price is a person looking at for the product? User
instalability? And, I assume it can  be used in conjuction with BC's or does it
essentially replace them?

Darc

92 TT Stealth

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 26 10:36:23 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Alterations for boost increase - MASC
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:39:27 -0700
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By load Mike is referring to airflow.

The AFC measures RPM and allows mixture airflow adjustments using SOLELY the
RPM.  Clearly this is only good at WOT and even then in limited situations.
Adjust airflow via actual engine load (amount of air being consumed by the
engine) is FAR more accurate.  This is in fact what the ECU does.  You can
cruise at 3000 rpm and pull 20% airflow.  You can also be at part throttle
or WOT at 3000 RPM and pull 35%.  You can be at 3000 RPM and 17 psi and pull
40%.  You get the idea.  Same RPM but totally different fuel requirements.
Tuning by RPM alone is useless.

The MASC divides the airflow up into 10 bands based on total possible
airflow.  You have tuning ranges from 0-10% airflow, 10-20%,..., 90-100%.
It is very similar to the equalizer on a stereo.  Once a curve has been
established you can adjust the entire curve up or down.

The MASC uses the same trickery that the VPC, GCC and AFC use.  It adjusts
the airflow frequency being fed to the ECU and lets the ECU draw its own
conclusions as to the amount of fuel to be delivered.



Regards,

Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> Hi Mike,
>
> This is good info.  Load-based tuning -- what is that?
>
> Thanks,
>
> -Bob
>
> > Basically its like a grand Apex AFC with a larger,
> unrestrictive mass air
> > meter and 11 instead of 5 points of adjustment!  Also, instead of
> > operating
> > off rpms like the AFC, it is load based so it allows a much
> broader map of
> > tunability.

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 26 12:22:44 1998
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> This is good info.  Load-based tuning -- what is that?

This is :
a) Fuel delivery in relation to the boost
b) tuning in the stuff under full load i.e. on the dyno where the the resistance
is that big that you have to floor the pedal and the rpms will not increase.
With this, we found the 1.05bars knock-start.

Anyone ?

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 26 12:22:48 1998
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Barry, thanks for the wrap-up (my pc was dead for a longer time) and the good
input !

> The damage to thge pistons was definitely detonation related according to the
> post mortem.

Same to me, but how do they look ? Any pictures ?

Yes, it was also the Swiss guy who killed the engine by himself. But some things
you said makes me thinking for the future :

> Even that being the case it is POSSIBLE that I leaned the car out too much.

Here the MASC questions step in : As you said you haven't seen any dangerous
figures of the EGT. So this means to me that adding an EGT and watching the
temps does not help to avoid lean situations ! I plan to tap in the probe as
well but if this does not help in any way what does ???

I'm somewhat critical and I like to ask you if you are sure the readings on the
sensors from the MASC where good. Especially the EGT probes must be of good
quality to act pretty quick. How fast can the MASC read the sensors and how many
readings per second ? The exhaust temperature changed very quick as we did the
measures and unfortunately the most probes act within 2 seconds. This is
probably too short and I wonder if there are any better solutions available.
During the development of the Diag Tool I also runned into this problem and I
currently don't know if the probes are fast enough.

> The single score in the single bore that was scored was caused by foreign
> matter (read piston/ring parts).  The cross hatch on the cylinder bore is
> still otherwise visible.

Sorry to ask again, but was this the middle one of the left bank ?

> not in this case "practise what I preach".  No indications of EGT, O2 sensor
> or any other indicator shows that the thing was lean.

Again, did you run a gauge besides of the MASC. I don't want to be too critical
but I always need two different devices to be sure until I know everything runs
perfect. Of course it is developed very well but a lean condition should be
recognized by the sensors.

> I suspect that although I pushed it over the edge the engine's days were
> numbered anyway due to its history.

Same to mee ! Fortunately the BOV saved me before I runned into a bigger
problem. Therefore the BOV is a GOOD TOOL to discover any engine problems :)

> Almost none of us run enough fuel pressure.  Almost
> none of us have proper fuel lines from tank to engine.  While many people
> have run very fast on HKS injectors, they are also in the same category you,
> myself, Todd S. and many others are in -- broken engines either due to
> detonation or lean burn.

Agreed, but why then the lean condition is shown by killing the pistons and not
by the sensors. Sorry when riding on this stuff but there must be signs that are
important (beside of knock). This signs (retarding, knock, IDC) must be watched
and displayed with warnings (or stored). If you have less fuel you'd cause lean
conditions that will be seen in the O2 readings as well as the EGT. Maybe the
EGT probe was located wrongly and the O2 sensor too slow ... or the MASC showed
wrong data ??

> Understood.  So far I have no evidence to suggest that the MASC itself is at
> fault.  Although running too lean case cause detonation, that was not the
> case in my situation.

Why then the piston got killed when not by a lean condition ? Did your engine
sucked anything in ? Maybe your rings were broken for a long time and I was
lucky to make the compression test at the first signs. On mine, all ring parts
where still in place (in up to 4 pices) as well as the broken ring land. The
lower piston parts lied in the oil pan on the larger sieve before the filter. No
damage to the walls nore any other parts (phfuuu).

> melted it using the MASC since it is so adjustable.  You could theoretically
> do the same thing with any other mixture device however.

Yes, just boost up a lot and run into fuel cut too much ... voilà !!

> The MASC has no built in safe gaurds.  To my knowledge, no aftermarket fuel
> control, including complete ECMs, has built-in safegaurds against running
> lean.

Unfortunately this is true. If there is an interest, I'll add this feature to
the diag tool if necessary. I have two programmable outputs with relais that can
switch a solenoid on/off. We can use the stock wastegate solenoid valve and
control it by the Diag if any preset situation in the readings occur. With this
valve placed AFTER the BC solenoid, boost will be decreased when any sensor
reads dangerous values. But I don't know how fast this would be then to be safe.
Maybe worth a test !

> I still believe the MASC is the way to go but with the caveat that it is a
> very powerful tool and not for people who cannot tune or do not have access
> to a good tuner.  It is not "plug and play".

Yes, true. But the VPC/GCC is not easily tuneable as well !

We all want to have the most power out of the cars but also to be save not
killing the engines ! For this, we NEED to be able to supervise the variables in
the engine. How do we do this if even the EGT or O2 sensors do not show any
dangerous situations ??? And if the ECU itselfs does not watch the bad signs how
can we do ? My aim is to install other sensors that watch the interesting points
and record them for any later analysis (hopefully not after any damage) But what
would here are the questions :

- Reading an EGT probe could be wrong ?
- How do I decode knock from the knock sensor (only the ECU knows) ?
- Are the sensors too slow to detect any bad situations ?

If the last ones is true then even my project doesn't help at all and I'll stop
it. But, to be honest, I'd like to know if the MASC is really accurate and how
fast it measured the values.

Cheers,
Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,SBOV,
Borla,OZ Mito2,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,Bremsa brakes,Pagid RS-R pads

Visit my homepage under: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 26 12:27:26 1998
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Anybody aware of the TMO Datalogger (PC connected to the 1st-gen) ? I emailed
them twice but never got any feedback. A friend named Lowell Foo told me that he
tried it on a friends Stealth and it worked pretty well.

Thanks,
Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,SBOV,
Borla,OZ Mito2,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,Bremsa brakes,Pagid RS-R pads

Visit my homepage under: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 26 13:49:04 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Alterations for boost increase - MASC (longer)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:52:08 -0700
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> -----Original Message-----
> Barry, thanks for the wrap-up (my pc was dead for a longer time)
> and the good input !
>
> > The damage to thge pistons was definitely detonation related
> according to the
> > post mortem.
>
> Same to me, but how do they look ? Any pictures ?

http://hellsgate.ml.org/Rebuild1.htm

I will have more pictures soon.

> Yes, it was also the Swiss guy who killed the engine by himself.
> But some things you said makes me thinking for the future :
>
> > Even that being the case it is POSSIBLE that I leaned the car
> out too much.
>
> Here the MASC questions step in : As you said you haven't seen
> any dangerous
> figures of the EGT. So this means to me that adding an EGT and
> watching the
> temps does not help to avoid lean situations ! I plan to tap in
> the probe as
> well but if this does not help in any way what does ???

No, I believe that EGT and O2 voltage and that elusive quality "common
sense" are invaluable.  A good knock sensor would be great.  I do NOT
believe I killed the engine due to a lean condition.  I am certain it was
just a case of too much boost.

> I'm somewhat critical and I like to ask you if you are sure the
> readings on the
> sensors from the MASC where good. Especially the EGT probes must
> be of good
> quality to act pretty quick. How fast can the MASC read the
> sensors and how many readings per second ?

I know that the MASC pressor sensor agrees with my SPI boost gauge and
SAVC-R.  They all agree to within a few tenths of a PSI.

As to EGT, I was using my Blitz meter only.  The MASC gauges should be great
since they use calibrated pyrometers and are temperature compensated.  They
are accurate to within 7 degrees F.  I do not know the sample rate.  It
doesn't matter that much since the computer can sample MUCH faster than the
response of even a quick pyrometer like the K-types used with the both the
MASC and any high quality automtoive EGT.  A general rule I used from the
race days was that when the EGTs were rising noticably fast the actual
exahust temperate was around 25 F hotter than what was indicated on the
meter.  I arrived at that number solely by observation.  It may differ
depending upon just how fast the EGT is rising.  The faster it iis rising
the more likely the actual exhaust temperature is much hotter than the gauge
indicates at the point in time that you glance at it.


> The exhaust temperature changed very quick as we did the
> measures and unfortunately the most probes act within 2 seconds. This is
> probably too short and I wonder if there are any better solutions
> available.

Not that I am aware.  There are no solid state devices which react quicker
and even if there were they would not withstand the extremes of heat found
in exhaust gases.  The fastest response is found in the K-type thermocouple.

> During the development of the Diag Tool I also runned into this
> problem and I currently don't know if the probes are fast enough.

They are likely just going to have to do.  One thing that might be
interesting is to predict the actual temperature by analyzing the rise rate.
So you could display a second temperature which is a predicted temperature
ONLY if the temperature is rising.  Fairly simple mathematics would give you
an extrapolation.


> > The single score in the single bore that was scored was caused
> by foreign
> > matter (read piston/ring parts).  The cross hatch on the
> cylinder bore is
> > still otherwise visible.
>
> Sorry to ask again, but was this the middle one of the left bank ?

The worst one was the drivers side rear bank (#4).  The other one was #1
(front left).  The #1 bore ate a piece of the #4 piston and caused a score
in the cylinder.  The #4 bore could easily be cleaned up with a simple hone.
Other than the one score, the cylinders were in excellent condition as are
the crank and rod bearings.


> > not in this case "practise what I preach".  No indications of
> EGT, O2 sensor
> > or any other indicator shows that the thing was lean.
>
> Again, did you run a gauge besides of the MASC. I don't want to
> be too critical
> but I always need two different devices to be sure until I know
> everything runs
> perfect. Of course it is developed very well but a lean condition
> should be recognized by the sensors.

I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of the MASC EGTs based on experiences
of others but as I mention I did not actually have MASC EGT hooked up at the
time.

> > I suspect that although I pushed it over the edge the engine's days were
> > numbered anyway due to its history.
>
> Same to mee ! Fortunately the BOV saved me before I runned into a bigger
> problem. Therefore the BOV is a GOOD TOOL to discover any engine
> problems :)
>
> > Almost none of us run enough fuel pressure.  Almost
> > none of us have proper fuel lines from tank to engine.  While
> many people
> > have run very fast on HKS injectors, they are also in the same
> category you,
> > myself, Todd S. and many others are in -- broken engines either due to
> > detonation or lean burn.
>
> Agreed, but why then the lean condition is shown by killing the
> pistons and not
> by the sensors. Sorry when riding on this stuff but there must be
> signs that are
> important (beside of knock). This signs (retarding, knock, IDC)
> must be watched
> and displayed with warnings (or stored). If you have less fuel
> you'd cause lean
> conditions that will be seen in the O2 readings as well as the
> EGT. Maybe the
> EGT probe was located wrongly and the O2 sensor too slow ... or
> the MASC showed wrong data ??

Quite possible.  However when tuning I target steady state situations for
the very reasons you indicate.  You can't tune a moving target.  I spent an
entire week tuning my MASC and I did it methodically and definitely much
more slowly than most people.  I just wanted it to be right.

I do not believe my engine was running lean.  There was no evidence of lean
burn.  Lean burn will show up on the valves, in the exhaust ports, the top
of the piston and as importantly the BOTTOM of the piston.  My pistons were
perfect other than the fact that two of them started to come apart.

I believe that a CAREFUL tuner can determine lean condition with EGT and O2
sensor voltages.  But I wholeheartedly agree - we need more information.
Timing affects EGTs for instance.  It is possible with retarded timing to
have high EGTs but a rich mixture.  It is also possible to have high EGTs
with mnormal timng and a rich mixture.  It is also possible to have cool
EGTs and a lean mixture.  If you map EGT versus mixture it will look like a
curve.

Also, a misfire will cause O2 voltages to read LEAN.  You cannot hear a
single or even several percentage misfire at high RPMs.  And they happen
even in the healthiest of engines.  Something like up to 2% is considered
normal in a passenger car.  That seems high to me but this is what I have
been advised by people in the know.  A high performance application would
clearly want to keep misfires to a minimum.  However, the point is you could
have a marginal ignition system, a RICH mixture but everything is telling
you that it is LEAN.  Conceivable but perhaps not liekly.  Again, the point
is we need more information as you suggest.  We need spark energy, timing
information, % misfire, ACCURATE O2 voltages, EGT and so on.  Ideally you
want EGT for each cylinder but that becomes impractical for most people.

There are just so many variables.  Once you  get into the 550+ HP (for our
cars) range those variables become more relevant.  The stock ECU was simply
never meant to deal with these conditions.  Timing needs to be monitored and
possibly changed.


> > Understood.  So far I have no evidence to suggest that the MASC
> itself is at
> > fault.  Although running too lean case cause detonation, that
> was not the
> > case in my situation.
>
> Why then the piston got killed when not by a lean condition ? Did
> your engine sucked anything in ?

Detonation.  Plain and simple.  Detonation is not caused solely by a lean
condition.  High cylinder pressures and inappropriately matched timing for
the fuel being burned will cause detonation.  I was running 100 octane fuel
and 21 PSI.  I KNOW that 21 PSI requires 116.  It was my fault.

> Maybe your rings were broken for a long time and I was
> lucky to make the compression test at the first signs. On mine,
> all ring parts
> where still in place (in up to 4 pices) as well as the broken
> ring land. The
> lower piston parts lied in the oil pan on the larger sieve before
> the filter. No
> damage to the walls nore any other parts (phfuuu).

The skirts on my pistons are perfect.  My failure was caused from a short
duration detonation.  I think yours was the result of many long term
detonation sessions.

> > melted it using the MASC since it is so adjustable.  You could
> theoretically
> > do the same thing with any other mixture device however.
>
> Yes, just boost up a lot and run into fuel cut too much ... voilà !!

I never have ran into fuel cut, even when the car was bone stock other than
the AVC-R.  Even peaks of 18 psi did not cause fuel cut on my car.  I do not
know why.

> > The MASC has no built in safe gaurds.  To my knowledge, no
> aftermarket fuel
> > control, including complete ECMs, has built-in safegaurds
> against running
> > lean.
>
> Unfortunately this is true. If there is an interest, I'll add
> this feature to
> the diag tool if necessary. I have two programmable outputs with
> relais that can
> switch a solenoid on/off. We can use the stock wastegate solenoid
> valve and
> control it by the Diag if any preset situation in the readings
> occur. With this
> valve placed AFTER the BC solenoid, boost will be decreased when
> any sensor
> reads dangerous values. But I don't know how fast this would be
> then to be safe.
> Maybe worth a test !

It is a start.  I believe the thing to shoot for is fast knock detection.
Lean burning by itself actually won't kill an engine as quickly as
detonation.  When I was racing motorcycles I would run the very ragged edge
of lean and get away with it for the duration of the race.  The pistons
would be thrown away after one race but they would last long enough to win
;)  Were I detonating (which I was not) the engine would not have survived
more than a few laps.

> > I still believe the MASC is the way to go but with the caveat
> that it is a
> > very powerful tool and not for people who cannot tune or do not
> have access
> > to a good tuner.  It is not "plug and play".
>
> Yes, true. But the VPC/GCC is not easily tuneable as well !

Agreed.

> We all want to have the most power out of the cars but also to be save not
> killing the engines ! For this, we NEED to be able to supervise
> the variables in
> the engine. How do we do this if even the EGT or O2 sensors do
> not show any
> dangerous situations ??? And if the ECU itselfs does not watch
> the bad signs how
> can we do ? My aim is to install other sensors that watch the
> interesting points
> and record them for any later analysis (hopefully not after any
> damage) But what
> would here are the questions :
>
> - Reading an EGT probe could be wrong ?

Not wrong, but things to consider:

If EGT is rising, actual temperature is invariable hotter than measured.
See above.
EGT by itself is as useless as O2 voltage by itself.  We need all these
variables incontext.

> - How do I decode knock from the knock sensor (only the ECU knows) ?

I have at least two solutions to this.  Unfortunately I am unable to discuss
either of them :\
More later.

> - Are the sensors too slow to detect any bad situations ?

O2 sensors have a lag as do EGTs.  Pressure and knock sensors are virtually
immediate although in the case of knock it is being detected after it
happnes.  The hope is that one detonation can be survived if the enegine
management system reacts to it in a timely fashion.

> If the last ones is true then even my project doesn't help at all
> and I'll stop
> it. But, to be honest, I'd like to know if the MASC is really
> accurate and how
> fast it measured the values.

Your project is valid.  We need the information.  However, to expect an
engine management system to protect the engine is lofty.  In fact, the stock
ECU does a great job at doing this IF we leave everything alone.  It is when
we start tricking the ECU that it gets out of hand.  Even if you were to
install a new ECM you would still have problems since the bottom line is the
car still needs to be properly tuned.


> Cheers,
> Roger


Keep up the work and the critical thinking.  This can be a complicated topic
which few if any have a complete grasp on.  We all benefit by discussing it
and the nuances therein.



Regards,

Barry

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Nov 26 23:55:35 1998
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Barry E. King wrote:
I believe now that I killed my engine.  Me.  I
> ran too much boost for the quality of fuel I was running at the time

Barry, what was exactly too much boost?
I havent delved into modifying my car before & I just want to make sure
of what is a "totally" safe boost level. That is what boost level is the
maximum one you can use that you can be sure that no damage will be
caused to your engine as a result of increasing the boost & you can
still drive the car as hard & as long as you like. ( Obviously not
mistreating the car,but just utilizing its performance ). I really only
want to get a few extra horses without going over the top.
Anybody else who has run an increased boost level for a long period
without problems could you please also comment.
Thankyou
Andrew
Australia
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 27 00:46:25 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Alterations for boost increase
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 01:46:43 -0700
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Too much boost means more than 16 psi on 92+ pump for any significant length
of time.  I ran 16-17 on good pump (94) and sometimes with octane booster
for a year or so with no apparent ill effects.  I consider this level of
boost safe and you should be very happy with the results.  15 psi is an even
safer level which still gives the car a nice wakeup.

I was running 100 at 21 psi for the week or two prior to blowing the engine
and had been on several extended high boost open highway runs while dialing
in the upper regions of airflow with the MASC.  Not cool.  I knew better, my
fault.  21 psi requires 116 octane.

Note that there is NO evidence period to suggest that the MASC was doing
anything except what it was designed to do.  I was not running lean and in
fact was still safely rich.  That means there's more power to be had  *grin*


Regards,

Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> Barry E. King wrote:
> I believe now that I killed my engine.  Me.  I
> > ran too much boost for the quality of fuel I was running at the time
>
> Barry, what was exactly too much boost?
> I havent delved into modifying my car before & I just want to make sure
> of what is a "totally" safe boost level. That is what boost level is the
> maximum one you can use that you can be sure that no damage will be
> caused to your engine as a result of increasing the boost & you can
> still drive the car as hard & as long as you like. ( Obviously not
> mistreating the car,but just utilizing its performance ). I really only
> want to get a few extra horses without going over the top.
> Anybody else who has run an increased boost level for a long period
> without problems could you please also comment.
> Thankyou
> Andrew

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 27 01:13:24 1998
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
From: Dave Allison <dave@languys.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Datalogger ??
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Here's an excerpt of the correspondence between myself and the guys that
make the Datalogger:

>To: 'Dave Allison' <dave@languys.com>
>Subject: RE: Datalogger
>
>>I'm interested in purchasing your Datalogger product for my 1993
>>Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4.
>
>I have not tried it on a 1993 3000, but I don't really see why it wouldn't
>work,
>if the connectors are the same.
>
>>Could you tell me what
>>data signals are monitored with my particular car? Is it the same data
>>features displayed on the DSM unit?
>
>You should be able to get all the features currently listed of the DSM.
Except
>that you can turn off 6 cylinders, instead of just four!  I actually developed
>the code on a 1990 3000 ECU I had laying around.
>
>Actually, I'm not sure if I've sold one to a 3S car yet.  There might be some
>small bugs not shaken out for them, but I will fix them as you find them.
>
>>You also mention on your site that there is some type of bug when dealing
>>with Mitsubishi ECU's regarding runnning in diagnostic mode and the ABS.
>>Does this problem occur with the 3000GT also?
>
>Probably.
>
>>Can the ABS service light be
>>reset by disconnecting the battery leads, thus resetting the ECU, or must I
>>follow the directions you mention on your site to reset the ABS indicator?
>
>You will have to put a switch on this pink wire that comes out of the ABS
unit.
>I suspect that the wiring colors are the same for the 3S, as they probably use
>the same ABS unit.  I have a diagram for what to do with a DSM.  I can send
>that
>to you and you can compare it to your service manual.
>
>>Virtual gauges
>
>Not done yet.
>
>>Can export to any spreadsheet program
>
>done.
>
>>Can take a snapshot in PNG format for easy publishing on the Web
>
>done.
>
>>Any special instructions or notes when installing on my particular model car?
>
>Isn't the diag connector actually in the same place?  Aside from the fuse
>numbering, I think you can use the instructions I posted for the 1G DSM.
>
>>P.S. Is it possible to swing some type of group discount if I rounded up
>>some members from the several 3000GT/Stealth lists on the Internet?
>
>My business partner and I are considering this.  We might do something like
>this
>during the month of December.
>
>-todd-




At 12:24 PM 11/26/98 , you wrote:
>Anybody aware of the TMO Datalogger (PC connected to the 1st-gen) ? I emailed
>them twice but never got any feedback. A friend named Lowell Foo told me
>that he
>tried it on a friends Stealth and it worked pretty well.
>
>Thanks,
>Roger
>
>-----------------------
>Roger Gerl, Switzerland
>93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
>K&N FIPK,Magnecor wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,SBOV,
>Borla,OZ Mito2,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,Bremsa brakes,Pagid RS-R pads
>
>Visit my homepage under: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 27 01:27:34 1998
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From: Dave Allison <dave@languys.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Alterations for boost increase
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Oops!

Intended to include this with my previous post.

http://www.tmo.com/prod/datalog/datalogger.htm

Dave Allison
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 27 05:56:43 1998
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From: "Bob Fontana" <bfontana@securitytechnologies.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Alterations for boost increase
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 08:56:27 -0500
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Dave, Barry, Roger, etc.

I will be getting a TMO Datalogger in the next couple of weeks.  I got a
special deal on it since I provided Todd Day with my MAF a couple years ago.

Todd is a hard guy to get a hold of since he's thinking, eating, sleeping
DSMs non-stop, 24-hours a day.  He runs an extensive DSM site, continually
tinkers with ECU-related projects and works an unrelated 8- or more hour job
each day.  Quite a guy, actually.

Be persistent.  I had to e-mail him 3 or 4 times to get his attention.

-Bob

> Intended to include this with my previous post.
>
> http://www.tmo.com/prod/datalog/datalogger.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 27 06:51:08 1998
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Andrew J Clark wrote:



> Anybody else who has run an increased boost level for a long period
> without problems could you please also comment.

Andrew....I  just installed  an new Apexi SAVC-R and did much of the same group
questioning as you are exploring now. My conservative conclusions were to set my  BC at
1 bar @68% and 1.05 bar @70%. Others have  higher settings... but it seemed that 1.10
bar and above was where the detonation was initially  being detected. Since it doesn't
take much of this, even if it occurs only once in the while, to ruin an engine, I have
opted to run safe. Hope this helps.

Darcy

Victoria BC.

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 27 14:54:38 1998
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Barry E. King wrote:
>
> Too much boost means more than 16 psi on 92+ pump for any significant length
> of time.
Unfortunately, down here we're not givin the octane rating of the fuel
you can only buy regualar unleaded petrol & what they call "premium"
unleaded petrol. I've always used premium. I should (& will) contact
Shell or one of the other major manufacturers & ask what rating the
premium actually is. Anyway I am only looking at increasing the boost to
around 13psi so from what I can gather I would have to really mistreat
the car to do any damage at that boost level.
Andrew
Australia
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 27 15:09:12 1998
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> Andrew....I  just installed  an new Apexi SAVC-R and did much of the same group
> questioning as you are exploring now. My conservative conclusions were to set my  BC at
> 1 bar @68% and 1.05 bar @70%. Others have  higher settings... but it seemed that 1.10
> bar and above was where the detonation was initially  being detected. Since it doesn't
> take much of this, even if it occurs only once in the while, to ruin an engine, I have
> opted to run safe. Hope this helps.
>
> Darcy
>
> Victoria BC.

Darcy,
Could you please explain 1 bar @0.68% , this has to do with airflow at 1
bar, yes? How important is this when increasing the boost to lower
levels, say 12-14psi ie do you have to alter airflow at these lower
levels? I plan to have the boost increased to about 13psi without doing
much else to the car apart from a K&N , any thoughts? I dont want ( or
would probably do some real damage with ) a 400plus HP car. I'm looking
at around mid 300's, just a bit more poke.
Any other comments most appreciated.
Thanks
Andrew
Australia
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 27 15:33:31 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Alterations for boost increase/safe boost levels
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 16:36:34 -0700
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Andrew,

Bes sure to ask which method they are using to calculate the octane rating
and in which rating mechanism they are quoting the numbers.

Here in the US octane is rated as (R + M) / 2 which is the average of
reasearch and motor octane.  Europe and other countries do it a little
differently.  It is important if possible to get both the R and the M
numbers since the motor octane component is the one most likely to suppress
knock.  All 93 octanes using R+M are not created equally.


Regards,

Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> Barry E. King wrote:
> >
> > Too much boost means more than 16 psi on 92+ pump for any
> significant length
> > of time.
> Unfortunately, down here we're not givin the octane rating of the fuel
> you can only buy regualar unleaded petrol & what they call "premium"
> unleaded petrol. I've always used premium. I should (& will) contact
> Shell or one of the other major manufacturers & ask what rating the
> premium actually is. Anyway I am only looking at increasing the boost to
> around 13psi so from what I can gather I would have to really mistreat
> the car to do any damage at that boost level.
> Andrew
> Australia

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 27 15:39:37 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Alterations for boost increase
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 16:42:42 -0700
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I'd like to comment on this BADC quoting thing.

Podium please.

The "@70%" is the boost actuator duty setting for the SAVC-R.  It is a
COMPLETELY irrelevant number to anyone without an Apex'i SAVC'R.  I find it
superfluous information that only tends to confuse people and bring up
rehashed discussions on what BADC really means.

Okay, off the podium.

Carry on.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> > Andrew....I  just installed  an new Apexi SAVC-R and did much
> of the same group
> > questioning as you are exploring now. My conservative
> conclusions were to set my  BC at
> > 1 bar @68% and 1.05 bar @70%. Others have  higher settings...
> but it seemed that 1.10
> > bar and above was where the detonation was initially  being
> detected. Since it doesn't
> > take much of this, even if it occurs only once in the while, to
> ruin an engine, I have
> > opted to run safe. Hope this helps.
> >
> > Darcy
> >
> > Victoria BC.
>
> Darcy,
> Could you please explain 1 bar @0.68% , this has to do with airflow at 1
> bar, yes? How important is this when increasing the boost to lower
> levels, say 12-14psi ie do you have to alter airflow at these lower
> levels? I plan to have the boost increased to about 13psi without doing
> much else to the car apart from a K&N , any thoughts? I dont want ( or
> would probably do some real damage with ) a 400plus HP car. I'm looking
> at around mid 300's, just a bit more poke.
> Any other comments most appreciated.
> Thanks
> Andrew

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 27 17:28:39 1998
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Barry E. King wrote:

> I'd like to comment on this BADC quoting thing.
>
> Podium please.
>
> The "@70%" is the boost actuator duty setting for the SAVC-R.  It is a
> COMPLETELY irrelevant number to anyone without an Apex'i SAVC'R.  I find it
> superfluous information that only tends to confuse people and bring up
> rehashed discussions on what BADC really means.
>
> Okay, off the podium.
>
> Carry on.

Whew...glad we cleared that up..but Barry is right...it's irrelevant information for
anyone running another brand of BC.  So my 2c worth is reduced to noting that I am
running at 14.223 psi which is slightly under 1 bar on my first setting (which for my
purposes I quoted as 1 bar) The second setting of 1.05 bar (again actually under this)
is for all purposes, conservative again. Like yourself Andrew, I am running only a K&N
air injection system as my only other mod. I solicited all the advise I could get from
users of Apexi and decided to set my unit as noted to insure engine reliablitiy (read
last-ability). Both Jim in Germany and Barry in Scottsdale contributed to this decision,
and I tended to lean a bit towards Barry's conservative end of the spectrum advise,
until all the dust settles from the meltdowns.

Hope that helps a bit...I'm certain both Jim and Barry can advise on Apexi better than
I  (I have had it only a short while) and certainly users of Blitz (like Roger) and the
other brands can advise if you note what you have. In conclusion...buy a couple bottles
of octane boost and have them in the trunk for those times when you think you may want
to put your foot into it.

Best

Darc

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 27 22:23:43 1998
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Hello all.

    I just bought a TT stealth (stock now 92 blue 52K), but I previosly
had an Eagle Talon AWD turbo. I own a TRE MASC 70mm conversion for that
car, and have had nothing but great things to say about it...I agree
with Barry, the masc doesn't cause anything to happen that the tuner
doesn't tell it to do.  It's by far the smartest design of fuel
controler Iv ever seen.  The range of adjustablility and the built in
guages and peak hold make it heads above the VPC/GCC combo (and was
cheaper).

    Also...after this talk of advanced tuning on the 3k's and blown up
motors, Iv got a strange problem:   My spedometer reads from 10-15 mph
slower than actual speed.  This was verified by "tailing" other cars at
a set speed, and by "time per distance" on the highway markers.  If
anyone can give me a list of possible causes, Id love to hear it.

Nathan Crisman
91 Talon AWD turbo
92 Stealth RT TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 27 22:45:00 1998
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I almoast forgot,  What is the general thought on the Borla Exhaust for
the TT's?  I have access to them at wholesale, (keystone automotive) Im
only planning on doing the complete exhaust, airfilter, boost, and?
what else is necessary at this point? fuel pump? How far can you go on
stock injectors?

sorry for the "basic" questions, but I haven't found a good site with
solid modifying information "staged upgrades" on the 3k's.

Nathan Crisman

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Nov 27 22:55:38 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Which cat-back
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 23:58:48 -0700
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I think the Borla is the best bang for the buck short of a custom exhaust.
It sounds good, looks good (IMO) and is cheap even at retail.  I bought mine
from Jeg's for $469 USD + truck freight.  I am sure you could have one made
that would work just as well for around that but likely not in stainless.

Filter, exhaust and boost control of some sort should get you up there.  The
stock injectors are 360cc/min which limits safe HP to around 400 (maybe
less) without maxing them out.  Bumping up the fuel pressure and making sure
the fuel filter is performing at optimun will help.  You could also wire the
pump directly to the battery to get a little more out of it withou shelling
out for a big pump.

Despite dyno results discovered by another list member, I did show
improvement in power with filter and exhaust according to my G-tech.
Bumping up the boost helps a lot once those mods are in place.

Check out www.3000gt.com for some more modification ideas.  The site is not
finished yet but may get your creative juices flowing.


Regards,

Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Nathan Crisman
> Sent: Friday, November 27, 1998 11:45 PM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Team3S: Which cat-back
>
>
> I almoast forgot,  What is the general thought on the Borla Exhaust for
> the TT's?  I have access to them at wholesale, (keystone automotive) Im
> only planning on doing the complete exhaust, airfilter, boost, and?
> what else is necessary at this point? fuel pump? How far can you go on
> stock injectors?
>
> sorry for the "basic" questions, but I haven't found a good site with
> solid modifying information "staged upgrades" on the 3k's.
>
> Nathan Crisman
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov 28 00:21:04 1998
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Thanks guys , imparticular Barry , Roger & Darc for the advice.
Car is booked in for Thursday this coming week to get the boost increaed
......I can't wait!
Andrew
Australia
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov 28 06:58:56 1998
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From: "Bob Rand" <rtr@vnet.net>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: TRE MASC
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 10:02:36 -0500
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Dodge was aware of this problem,  Apperantly the speedometer gear ratio was
incorrect. Solution in the service manual is replace the speedo gear.

Bob
93 Stealth TT
-----Original Message-----
From: Nathan Crisman <jonescri@accessgate.net>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Saturday, November 28, 1998 1:24 AM
Subject: Team3S: TRE MASC


>Hello all.
>
>    I just bought a TT stealth (stock now 92 blue 52K), but I previosly
>had an Eagle Talon AWD turbo. I own a TRE MASC 70mm conversion for that
>car, and have had nothing but great things to say about it...I agree
>with Barry, the masc doesn't cause anything to happen that the tuner
>doesn't tell it to do.  It's by far the smartest design of fuel
>controler Iv ever seen.  The range of adjustablility and the built in
>guages and peak hold make it heads above the VPC/GCC combo (and was
>cheaper).
>
>    Also...after this talk of advanced tuning on the 3k's and blown up
>motors, Iv got a strange problem:   My spedometer reads from 10-15 mph
>slower than actual speed.  This was verified by "tailing" other cars at
>a set speed, and by "time per distance" on the highway markers.  If
>anyone can give me a list of possible causes, Id love to hear it.
>
>Nathan Crisman
>91 Talon AWD turbo
>92 Stealth RT TT
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Nov 28 15:20:03 1998
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> I almoast forgot,  What is the general thought on the Borla Exhaust for
> the TT's?

IMHO, the Borla is a good thing taht fits very well and sounds great ... after
3000rpms ! Below this, around crusing speeds, there is a deep rumble that is too
loud and is getting annoying over a longer period. Also the joint to the stock
cat is well sized but will be too small for a bigger dp/cat combo. it then is a
restriction, although not a big one :) Fitting and quality is very good. For the
Power... who knows for sure. I haven't felt a difference nor did I found better
figures on the dyno (with dp/cat).

> only planning on doing the complete exhaust, airfilter, boost, and?
> what else is necessary at this point? fuel pump? How far can you go on
> stock injectors?

Well, doing the complete exhaust means also gutting the front cats and getting
rid of the main cat. But I doubt that this will really free up more than 10
horses if you're still running the stock turbos. Maybe you'll loose some tourque
as well. Filter is ok and boost is the key. Just follow the last threads and
you'll find that boost should be limited to 16psi to be save. With this the
stock injectors should be enough. I've tested the car on the dyno up to
continous 1.05bars/15.2psi around 5600 (close to knock) and the A/F ratio was
still on the rich side. This allowed us to reduce the mixture with the help of
the AFC what resulted in a gain of 7 to 10hp and still on the save rich side.

> sorry for the "basic" questions, but I haven't found a good site with
> solid modifying information "staged upgrades" on the 3k's.

Check out my pages to see the Borla installation :)

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,SBOV,
Borla,OZ Mito2,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,Bremsa brakes,Pagid RS-R pads

Visit my homepage under: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/
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Hey George,

>   I was wondering do you still have your stock 460cc injectors?  I
> would like to purchase it from you if they are still available.  Thanx.

Yes, but they are in the car :) As the project will not be continued until next
year, I will still run with them. Furthermore, I'm noit sure what the flow rate
really is and I'll first test one whenever I replace them.

Cheers, Roger

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,SBOV,
Borla,OZ Mito2,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,Bremsa brakes,Pagid RS-R pads

Visit my homepage under: http://www.geX-Mozilla-Status: 0009Speedway/9589/


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov 29 10:15:22 1998
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R.G. wrote:

                                                        SNIP


Just follow the last threads and

> you'll find that boost should be limited to 16psi to be save. With this the
> stock injectors should be enough. I've tested the car on the dyno up to
> continous 1.05bars/15.2psi around 5600 (close to knock) and the A/F ratio was
> still on the rich side. This allowed us to reduce the mixture with the help of
> the AFC what resulted in a gain of 7 to 10hp and still on the safe rich side.
>

Roger, I'm wandering in the fog with reference to AFC(?)  and how can I  tune/ lean mixture
through it.  In other words, if I am running rich, how can I lean that out a bit in my
slightly modified setup... or should  I just leave it alone? Barry, anyone else, feel free to
jump in and banish this damn fog.

Darc

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov 29 11:23:18 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Which cat-back
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 12:26:36 -0700
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The Apex'i AFC (airflow controller) intercepts the airflow signal (a
frequency signal generated by the MAS) and allows the user to increase or
decrease the signal before it is sent to the ECU.  Increasing the signal
makes the ECU believe more air is present.  Decreasing the signal makes the
ECU think less air is present.  The ECU responds to this by increasing or
decreeasing fuel thereby adjusting the mixture.

The AFC is kind of brain-dead IMO (even though I own one and it is still in
the car) because it is adjusted solely based on RPM.  We have discussed
before why this is very limiting.  Basically it is only good at WOT or fr
adjusting idle quality which for many may be enough.  It did serve me well
for many months but the MASC is incomparably superior.

Personally I think it is the poorer of the many hacks available (VPC, GCC,
MASC etc.) but it does work.  It is excellent quality and for 1994+ owners
was really the only device available prior to the MASC short of converting
to an entirely new ECM.


Regards,

Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> Roger, I'm wandering in the fog with reference to AFC(?)  and how
> can I  tune/ lean mixture
> through it.  In other words, if I am running rich, how can I lean
> that out a bit in my
> slightly modified setup... or should  I just leave it alone?
> Barry, anyone else, feel free to
> jump in and banish this damn fog.
>
> Darc

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov 29 12:03:04 1998
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Barry E. King wrote:

> The Apex'i AFC (airflow controller) intercepts the airflow signal (a
> frequency signal generated by the MAS) and allows the user to increase or
> decrease the signal before it is sent to the ECU.  Increasing the signal
> makes the ECU believe more air is present.  Decreasing the signal makes the
> ECU think less air is present.  The ECU responds to this by increasing or
> decreeasing fuel thereby adjusting the mixture.

                                    <snip>Thanks Barry...cleared that up. So what I need
now, to play with my mixture,  is something in addition to what I have...preferably the
MASC... but I have a sneaking feeling the price may hamstring me...assuming it is even
available anymore.  Or, are there discontinued units now at a discount price? Mike?
Barry?

Best

Darc

PS Am taking my computer apart to upgrade, so will shortly be off line for a short
while.. I hope. : )

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov 29 13:32:05 1998
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Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:30:27 -0800
From: "Errin D. Humphrey" <errin@u.washington.edu>
Organization: University of Washington
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To: 3/S Sirius ML <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Zen Motorsports BOV
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Barry E. King wrote:

>Short of that, the Zen Motorsports BOV appears to be a far superior
>design than any of the current popular BOVs.  The tolerances of the
>cylinder are extremely tight making leakage a non-issue at any boost
>levels liable to be seen in our cars.

I haven't been able to locate a webpage for Zen Motorsports.
Do they have one?  Could someone please send me the url?
If not, does anyone have a picture of the Zen BOV?

Thanks in advance,

--Errin Humphrey

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov 29 13:41:13 1998
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Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 22:36:30 +0000
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
Organization: Behind the frontier
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Which cat-back /AFC (knock,dyno)
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Barry's respond is tripple A rated and says it all :)

I must admit, that I got the AFC in the hope to get rid off the anoying fuel cut
and hesitations arpund 1.25 bars (read it well as the car runned hell ...
directly to hell). As the symptons arose I did not thought of any retarded
timing nor knock and I just thought that there is too less fuel delivered. Today
I call myself stupid. I learned this as I installed the AFC and increased the
fuel around max power (+5000). What then happend was immediate fuel cut below 1
bars and a big jump onto the emergency fuel map where the ECU ignores the MAS
and just allows the driver to go up to about 2500-3000rpm and not more. Of
course the injectors were maxed out and the ECU could not allocate any mixture
with the provided maps what finally caused the fuel cut. I then leaned the
mixture out at this level and voilà ... no fuel cut anymore :) Unfortunately the
hesitation was still there and it felt not that good as there was some power
loss after 1.2 bars (around 17.4 psi). I then decided to leave it switched off
until I'll tune it in on the dyno.

The first run we made with a reduced A/F ratio resulted in very impressive 465hp
around 5600@1.25bars or so. But then the mechanic told me that he heard a heavy
knock. Sitting myself in the car the knock was hearable and the power was there
at 5560rpm and 40rpms more a huge loss of about 90hp (retarded timing). But
knock was hearable somewhat sooner. Reducing boost while holding the car on full
load at 5600 removed the hearable knock at 1.2bars. I felt fine as there was
still about 435hp available, but tourque was noticeable decreased. The mechnic
still told me toi hear knoc kwhile I wasn't able (or ignored ??) any knock. We
then used the garden-hose method to determine the high-speed knock (higher knock
frequency) by putting the hose below the intake manifold close to the knock
sensor and putting the other end into an old closed headphone. With this knock
was noticeable until we went below 1.06 bars peak (the Blitz DSBC was great to
tune in then). We then measured the A/F ratio on different rpms and adjusted the
AFC to always on the safe side but not too rich as necessary. This resulted in a
gain of about 7-10 hp then. Nothing noticeable and nithing on the tourque side.
Also I was able to do this because I was told that the EU version have bigger
injectors as the US ones and therefore are running on the richer side. We will
see whenever I pull an injector.

Barry is right, AFC is fuel control for the poor man (me..) and it works. IMHO
But it is not worth the time and money if you don't have any other mods like
bigger injectors or so. Also trying to cure a sympton and not the cause is a
stupid idea ... although it often works.

-----------------------
Roger Gerl, Switzerland
93'3000GT TwinTurbo (Animale Rosso)
K&N FIPK,Magnecor wires,Blitz DSBC/gauge/Dual Timer,Apexi AFC,SBOV,
Borla,OZ Mito2,Yoko AVS-Z1,braided brake lines,Bremsa brakes,Pagid RS-R pads
Maybe: f.aluminum pistons (if rebuild needed)
Visit my homepage under: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/9589/

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov 29 14:08:28 1998
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Zen Motorsports BOV
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 15:11:49 -0700
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http://www.zen-motorsports.com/index.htm


> I haven't been able to locate a webpage for Zen Motorsports.
> Do they have one?  Could someone please send me the url?
> If not, does anyone have a picture of the Zen BOV?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> --Errin Humphrey

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Nov 29 14:27:15 1998
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From: "Bob Rand" <rtr@vnet.net>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Zen Motorsports BOV
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 17:31:22 -0500
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Here ya go.

http://www.zen-motorsports.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: Errin D. Humphrey <errin@u.washington.edu>
To: 3/S Sirius ML <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Sunday, November 29, 1998 4:32 PM
Subject: Team3S: Zen Motorsports BOV


>Barry E. King wrote:
>
>>Short of that, the Zen Motorsports BOV appears to be a far superior
>>design than any of the current popular BOVs.  The tolerances of the
>>cylinder are extremely tight making leakage a non-issue at any boost
>>levels liable to be seen in our cars.
>
>I haven't been able to locate a webpage for Zen Motorsports.
>Do they have one?  Could someone please send me the url?
>If not, does anyone have a picture of the Zen BOV?
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>--Errin Humphrey
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm