--

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  1 00:22:56 1999
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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 20:12:43 +0100
From: Matthews <matthews@wiesbaden.netsurf.de>
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To: Team 3S Tech List <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: engine taping/ticking
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Jeff Lucius wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
> The ticking/tapping noise my engine developed turned
> out to be a "rod knock" (according to both Dodge and
> Mitsubishi dealers). I hope this is not the case for
> you. I could tell it definitely was not the valve
> train but it did increase with engine RPM. It was not
> very loud. Just a gentle tap, tap, tap before my bank
> account disappeared. The car was 5 years old and had
> 54.7K miles on the odometer. I had had the car for 2
> months and 1000 miles.

I may be wrong, but I am under the impression that if the tapping sound
goes away when you rev the engine a bit (increasing the oil pressure?),
then it is just the all-too-common valve lash adjuster noise.  Ignore it
until it is time for a new timing belt, when it will be cheaper to
correct.  I would think that rod knock would only get louder under these
circumstances.


> Jeff Lucius <StealthMan92@yahoo.com>
> red 1992 Stealth R/T TT; 186 CI; completely rebuilt,
> race-prepped and balanced engine; 0.050" oversized
> forged, no-silicon Venolia pistons; head flow work
> and port matching; Magnecor 8.5 mm; RC balanced stock
> injectors to 380 cc/min; TEC 15Gs; GT Alley
> intercoolers and 2" piping; K&N FIPK; improved
> pre-cats; complete ATR exhaust; EVC IV; 2 EGT,
> boost, and FP gauges; Centerforce DF clutch;
> PowerStop rotors, Metal Matrix pads, SMC brake
> lines; Nitto NT-555 P245/45ZR17; TMO Datalogger;
> 280 HP at wheels using G-Tech Pro at 11.4 psi
> boost and 5200 ft elevation.

Wow... looks like rod knock was just the excuse Jeff needed for his new
hobby!  :-)

--
Jim Matthews - Wiesbaden, Germany
mailto:matthews@wiesbaden.vistec.net (64 Kbps ISDN)
http://rover.wiesbaden.vistec.net/~matthews

*** 3000GT-Stealth International (3Si) Member #0030 ***
http://rover.wiesbaden.vistec.net/~matthews/stealth.html
Jet Black '94 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo AWD AWS 6-spd
Adjustable Active Suspension, Adjustable Exhaust System
K&N FIPK, A'PEXi Super AVC-R (1.0 bar @ 72% BADC)
A'PEXi Turbo Timer (30 sec), Blitz Blow-Off Valve
Magnecore spark plug wires, Redline ShockProof fluids
Abex metallic brake pads, custom braided brake lines
Michelin Pilot XGT-Z4 245/45ZR17, Top Speed: 168mph
G-Tech Pro: 0-60 4.79 sec, 1/4 13.16 sec @ 113.9 mph
1 Feb 99 Dyno Session: 406 SAE HP, 354 lb-ft torque


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  1 03:24:42 1999
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Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 03:24:40 -0800 (PST)
From: George Kuo <amkreadgto@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S: Stock rims question....
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Hi Team,

I was wondering if '94+ stock rotors will fit into 1st
gen Stealth RT TT rims? I know they wont fit into 1st
gen VR4 rims.. thanx in advance for your help!!

George

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Flats/8576/Intro.html

__________________________________________________
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  1 06:07:15 1999
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From: Todd Leveck <todd.leveck@hyattdiecast.com>
To: "'stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Tour-sport mode for exhaust
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it sounds like the valve on your muffler is frozen.  the valve is located
right behind your
rear drivers side wheel.  if it is stuck then you need to remove your tire
so you can get
to it and try to work it free using penetrating oil and pliers.    also,
check
out john adams web site for excellent instructions for doing this. hope this
helps.

todd
93 vr4 (same problem)

-----Original Message-----
From: Manoj Prasad [mailto:mprasad@uswest.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 9:19 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Tour-sport mode for exhaust


This is my first posting so I hope I don't screw this up the way I send
this email.  Please let me know if I did something wrong
.
----------------
I have a 92 VR4.  When I switch from sport to tour I do not hear any
difference.  I do hear a motor in the trunk area but I do not know where
the cable goes to on the exhaust.

When I bought the car I switch from Sport to Tour and noticed that the
exhaust noice was reduced but then it never increased again.

Any thoughts?

Rgds
Moe P

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  1 07:17:28 1999
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From: "Darcy Gunnlaugson" <wce@telus.net>
To: "Manoj Prasad" <mprasad@uswest.net>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Tour-sport mode for exhaust
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 07:15:36 -0800
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Hi Moe;

Welcome to the Team;

You will not really notice much difference in the tour/sport modes until you
are over 2500rpm. Then, at this level, the tour mode automatically switches
to sport mode.  From then on up the rpm band they are identical. Sport mode
is a bit louder in the lower (under 2500) rpm band. If there is no
noticeable difference in the low end sound, in both modes, then you may be
stuck in sport mode. Tune your ear to the band around 2500+ and see if you
notice it open up into a more throaty sound in tour mode when you go over
2500rpm in 2 nd gear. If this occurs, then you have no problem. If it
doesn't, it is stuck and I'm certain we'll get a fix for you on that. First,
check.

Best

Darc
-----Original Message-----
From: Manoj Prasad <mprasad@uswest.net>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 10:05 PM
Subject: Team3S: Tour-sport mode for exhaust


>This is my first posting so I hope I don't screw this up the way I send
>this email.  Please let me know if I did something wrong
>.
>----------------
>I have a 92 VR4.  When I switch from sport to tour I do not hear any
>difference.  I do hear a motor in the trunk area but I do not know where
>the cable goes to on the exhaust.
>
>When I bought the car I switch from Sport to Tour and noticed that the
>exhaust noice was reduced but then it never increased again.
>
>Any thoughts?
>
>Rgds
>Moe P
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  1 07:33:16 1999
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From: "Darcy Gunnlaugson" <wce@telus.net>
To: "Darcy Gunnlaugson" <wce@telus.net>, "Manoj Prasad" <mprasad@uswest.net>,
        <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Tour-sport mode for exhaust
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Hi Moe;

My first sentence should have read "won't notice any difference in the
tour/sport modes above 2500 rpms". I see someone has already advised on the
fix if you require one. However, insure there is no difference in the modes
under 2500 before you involve yourself in the  work.

Darc



snip

>You will not really notice much difference in the tour/sport modes until
you
>are over 2500rpm. Then, at this level, the tour mode automatically switches
>to sport mode.

snip

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  1 10:49:34 1999
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: "Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: ADMIN: Please submit Questions for our FAQ pages.
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 10:47:24 -0800
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To all:

We have been putting together a FAQ ("Frequently Asked Questions")
Page and we'll be setting it up over the next several weeks.  If any
of you have ideas for Questions that should be included (and/or the
Answers for same), please submit them to me PRIVATELY.

Among the topics are a "newbie" directory for acronyms or terms used
on the internet, and a second directory of acronyms that are
3S-specific (examples: AVC-R. OBDII, etc).  We already have many of
these terms, but I'm sure we've left some out, so your lists or
input will help keep things accurate.

TIA,

Forrest


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  1 13:18:19 1999
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From: Matt Wise <diranged@hearme.com>
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To: Vineet Singh <billi_gates@hotmail.com>
cc: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com, stealth@starnet.net
Subject: Team3S: Re: Boost madness / Sport-tour mode. -- the final story, i , think..
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Well Colin was helpfull enough to come over today at lunch and look at my
car.. Neither of us have a clue whats going on.. but I have a theory now.
After riding in the car, Colin said it felt nearly the same as his did
before the bleeder valve mod. What I think is that when I replaced the
spark plugs, I never installed the upper IC pipe again so the turbo was
bleeding to the air.. itsp ossible that the turbo just blew a bearing or
something and isnt making the powr it was originally.. Since that day it
hasnt felt right.. Thats my theory now.. now to convince Mitsu and my GM
warentee to cover a new turbo.

--Matt Wise
*NOC Admin*
(650) 429 3751

On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Matt Wise wrote:

> Is it possible to have the precats removed and testpipe type things welded
> in their place? Will any smog station actually check for that?
>
> --Matt Wise
> *NOC Admin*
> (650) 429 3751
>
> On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Vineet Singh wrote:
>
> > About your boost control problems, If your exhaust is stuck in "tour" mode,
> > I would change that FIRST. ALL your exhaust comes out of a (approx) 2.5"
> > pipe. If it's in TOUR mode, then it goes out at the end just before the
> > muffler through what looks like a 1.5 - 2" pipe. That's a pretty hefty
> > restriction.
> >
> > With that in the way, your stock pre-cats (BIG restrictions IMO, and as
> > evidenced by my gtech-logs), and the stock cat (not as restrictive, but
> > still in the way at the track.) You may never reach full boost, as you have
> > to consider, if you want 14psi from your turbo, you exhaust manifolds
> > (preturbo) will see about 25-30 psi!, all that exhaust needs to go
> > SOMEWHERE, and get out of the way fast, otherwise you just have too much
> > "backpressure".
> >
> > This may not be your only problem, but it sure would help to get rid of the
> > restrictions, starting atleast with the silly sport/tour mode valve. (mine
> > is stuck open btw :)
> >
> > Vineet Singh
> > Manuals On CD - http://manualcd.dsm.org
> > Club DSM A/T - http://at.dsm.org  -  "Never Lift To Shift!"
> >
> > (PS, please snip the majority of the "reply to: posts" below your messages,
> > I read the "digest version" of this list, so I have to scroll about a mile
> > before seeing the next post, and my MS intellimouse wheel is wearing out :)
> > Thanks!
> >
> > _____
> > ORIGINAL MESSAGE
> > FYI, someone just suggested that it could be an exhaust problem.. This
> > sounds very plausable considering that i know my exhaust is stuck in tour
> > mode.. Coudl that be it?
> >
> > - --Matt Wise
> > *NOC Admin*
> > (650) 429 3751
> >
> > On Mon, 29 Nov 1999, Matt Wise wrote:
> >
> > > I decided to try swapping the hoses going to the selanoid, and guess what,
> > > NO CHANGE! Nothign changed... still .38-.40 boost.. So then I disconnected
> > > the bottom hose from the selanoid (the one w/ the bleeder on it) and guess
> > > what, instead of getting 1.5bar, I got a max of .5 bar.. definately felt
> > > like more power, but not the 1+ bar I would expect.. so now I challenge
> > _____
> >
>
>

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  1 14:07:14 1999
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From: Matt Jannusch <MAJ@BigCharts.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Re: Boost madness / Sport-tour mode. -- the final sto
ry, i , think..
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 16:06:57 -0600
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> I never installed the upper IC pipe again so the turbo was
> bleeding to the air.. itsp ossible that the turbo just blew a
> bearing or something and isnt making the powr it was
> originally.. Since that day it hasnt felt right.. Thats my
> theory now.. now to convince Mitsu and my GM
> warentee to cover a new turbo.

Hmm, no wonder why the aftermarket warranties cost so much these days.....  Why should the warranty cover owner-induced damage?

You might want to try just taking off the air inlet pipe from the turbos and make sure both spin okay.  They don't normally go bad very often, even if you drove it a little without the upper intercooler pipe on.  I'd assume that you didn't drive it very far since the car would run extremely poorly with that large of a leak in the intake system.

If you aren't able to make boost above 6-8psi, then look back in the list archives for some of my posts on boost problems.  There should be one or two that detail exactly what to look for and check if you are having trouble, in the best order to do them to save time and money.

Basically:

Clamps and connections on all intake hosts and vacuum lines
Line from compressor bypass valve to throttle body connection
Intercooler connections
Y-pipe
Verify that both turbos are able to spin without much friction

I think my original post mentioned a lot more than that, and in greater detail.

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  1 15:08:19 1999
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Hello fellow NA owners out there, I have some exciting news. I went to
an exhaust fabricator today, and after looking at my car and a pic of
the ATR downpipe (Thanks for the great pics, Roger) He said that he
could fabricate something like a downpipe for the NA cars. I am going to
have him do this, and he will be using my car for the R&D, and If
anybody is interested, others can be made. I am thinking the whole deal
will run about 250$ or so. Maybe a bit less. I know they aren't headers,
but it IS a step in the right direction. Anybody interested, Email me.

Matt
3/Si #311
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  1 17:59:42 1999
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From: "Ryan Peterson" <ryanp@crcwnet.com>
To: "Stealth List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: NA news.
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 17:59:42 -0800
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Question, what would be the point of a downpipe on a NA?  Isn't this
something that's turbo specific?

Ryan

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Michael Booker
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 3:06 PM
To: mattrt@hotmail.com
Cc: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: NA news.


Hello fellow NA owners out there, I have some exciting news. I went to
an exhaust fabricator today, and after looking at my car and a pic of
the ATR downpipe (Thanks for the great pics, Roger) He said that he
could fabricate something like a downpipe for the NA cars. I am going to
have him do this, and he will be using my car for the R&D, and If
anybody is interested, others can be made. I am thinking the whole deal
will run about 250$ or so. Maybe a bit less. I know they aren't headers,
but it IS a step in the right direction. Anybody interested, Email me.

Matt
3/Si #311
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  1 18:05:55 1999
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From: "Mohler, Jeff" <jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
To: "'ryanp@crcwnet.com'" <ryanp@crcwnet.com>,
        Stealth List
<stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: NA news.
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:08:52 -0800
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A larger initial exhaust system *downpipe* on an NA isnt a bad idea.

You want to be able to tune/manage backpressure for specific power bands on the
N/A.

Its much easier to manage/control that backpressure "range" in the exhaust
system with a muffler/resonator/convertor once you get the initial bad designs
out of the way.

:-----Original Message-----
:From: Ryan Peterson [mailto:ryanp@crcwnet.com]
:Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 6:00 PM
:To: Stealth List
:Subject: RE: Team3S: NA news.
:
:
:Question, what would be the point of a downpipe on a NA?  Isn't this
:something that's turbo specific?
:
:Ryan
:
:-----Original Message-----
:From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
:[mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of
:Michael Booker
:Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 3:06 PM
:To: mattrt@hotmail.com
:Cc: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
:Subject: Team3S: NA news.
:
:
:Hello fellow NA owners out there, I have some exciting news. I went to
:an exhaust fabricator today, and after looking at my car and a pic of
:the ATR downpipe (Thanks for the great pics, Roger) He said that he
:could fabricate something like a downpipe for the NA cars. I
:am going to
:have him do this, and he will be using my car for the R&D, and If
:anybody is interested, others can be made. I am thinking the whole deal
:will run about 250$ or so. Maybe a bit less. I know they
:aren't headers,
:but it IS a step in the right direction. Anybody interested, Email me.
:
:Matt
:3/Si #311
:For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
:http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
:
:For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
:http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
:
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  1 18:19:35 1999
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Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 21:17:35 -0500
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CC: "'ryanp@crcwnet.com'" <ryanp@crcwnet.com>,
        Stealth List <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: NA news.
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Mohler, Jeff wrote:
>
> A larger initial exhaust system *downpipe* on an NA isnt a bad idea.
>
> You want to be able to tune/manage backpressure for specific power bands on the
> N/A.
>
> Its much easier to manage/control that backpressure "range" in the exhaust
> system with a muffler/resonator/convertor once you get the initial bad designs
> out of the way.
Exactly. I'm going for the most free flowing system that can be fit on
the car. It's going to look like the ATR downpipe, and flow better than
the stock system. I will concede that you may lose some low end torque,
but the trade-off for high end power is one that I am willing to make. I
am waiting for somebody to do some R&D on true headers, but apparently
nobody will. This is as close (for now) to headers as the NA owners have
for now.
Announcement! If you have an OBD-II car, this may not work for you. He
will be fabricating this one for 1 O2 sensor, and I believe the OBD-II
cars have 2. Correct me if i'm wrong.

Matt
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  1 18:21:59 1999
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From: "Mohler, Jeff" <jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
To: Stealth List <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: NA news.
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:24:56 -0800
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But, with proper TUNING of the convertor/muffler parts, you can have the free-er
flowing DP, but control torque loss at low RPMs as well.

:-----Original Message-----
:From: Michael Booker [mailto:mrbook@gate.net]
:Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 6:18 PM
:To: Mohler, Jeff
:Cc: 'ryanp@crcwnet.com'; Stealth List
:Subject: Re: Team3S: NA news.
:
:
:Mohler, Jeff wrote:
:>
:> A larger initial exhaust system *downpipe* on an NA isnt a bad idea.
:>
:> You want to be able to tune/manage backpressure for specific
:power bands on the
:> N/A.
:>
:> Its much easier to manage/control that backpressure "range"
:in the exhaust
:> system with a muffler/resonator/convertor once you get the
:initial bad designs
:> out of the way.
:Exactly. I'm going for the most free flowing system that can be fit on
:the car. It's going to look like the ATR downpipe, and flow better than
:the stock system. I will concede that you may lose some low end torque,
:but the trade-off for high end power is one that I am willing
:to make. I
:am waiting for somebody to do some R&D on true headers, but apparently
:nobody will. This is as close (for now) to headers as the NA
:owners have
:for now.
:Announcement! If you have an OBD-II car, this may not work for you. He
:will be fabricating this one for 1 O2 sensor, and I believe the OBD-II
:cars have 2. Correct me if i'm wrong.
:
:Matt
:
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  1 18:56:59 1999
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Reply-To: "Gil Gomes" <gil@warpedweb.com>
From: "Gil Gomes" <gil@warpedweb.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: NA news.
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 21:52:53 -0500
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Okay... Now I'm REALLY confused.  Could someone explain what a downpipe
is on an NA?  Is it the pipe coming from the exhaust manifold and entering
the exhaust
system proper?  and how would you TUNE a converter/muffler part?

  I have a '95 3KGT base and I'm aggresively attempting to wring as much HP
as possible from it.  The people in this group are "motorheads" WAY beyond
my limited knowledge.  I was a motorhead in high school... back when arcane
entities like points, carburetors, headers and full-race cams were all the
rage.
The times have changed so much that this is like an entirely different
venue.

I have a K&N FIPK and Borla installed and the resonator is firmly ensconced
in a box in my garage...  I'm aiming for a bigger throttle body next spring.
If there's
anything else I can do in the intake/exhaust portion of the setup, I'd like
to address
that before I start modified ECU hunting.  I'm already thinking about an
electric
supercharger like the turbozet, and possibly a smooth hose between the MAF
and throttle body, to decrease turbulence.  I've even considered a small
hood
scoop just above and before the FIPK...

I, like someone else replying to this thread, assumed that a downpipe was
turbo
specific.  Thanx for any light you gents can shed....

-G


>But, with proper TUNING of the convertor/muffler parts, you can have the
free-er
>flowing DP, but control torque loss at low RPMs as well.



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  1 19:02:29 1999
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From: "Mohler, Jeff" <jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
To: "'Gil Gomes'" <gil@warpedweb.com>, stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: NA news.
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:05:12 -0800
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You "tune" backpressure by using different sized/type mufflers, convertors,
resonators..etc.

Different amounts of backpressure product Hp in different ways.  The small parts
like that, are relatively easy to swap in and out.

:-----Original Message-----
:From: Gil Gomes [mailto:gil@warpedweb.com]
:Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 6:53 PM
:To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
:Subject: Team3S: NA news.
:
:
:Okay... Now I'm REALLY confused.  Could someone explain what a downpipe
:is on an NA?  Is it the pipe coming from the exhaust manifold
:and entering
:the exhaust
:system proper?  and how would you TUNE a converter/muffler part?
:
:  I have a '95 3KGT base and I'm aggresively attempting to
:wring as much HP
:as possible from it.  The people in this group are
:"motorheads" WAY beyond
:my limited knowledge.  I was a motorhead in high school...
:back when arcane
:entities like points, carburetors, headers and full-race cams
:were all the
:rage.
:The times have changed so much that this is like an entirely different
:venue.
:
:I have a K&N FIPK and Borla installed and the resonator is
:firmly ensconced
:in a box in my garage...  I'm aiming for a bigger throttle
:body next spring.
:If there's
:anything else I can do in the intake/exhaust portion of the
:setup, I'd like
:to address
:that before I start modified ECU hunting.  I'm already
:thinking about an
:electric
:supercharger like the turbozet, and possibly a smooth hose
:between the MAF
:and throttle body, to decrease turbulence.  I've even
:considered a small
:hood
:scoop just above and before the FIPK...
:
:I, like someone else replying to this thread, assumed that a
:downpipe was
:turbo
:specific.  Thanx for any light you gents can shed....
:
:-G
:
:
:>But, with proper TUNING of the convertor/muffler parts, you
:can have the
:free-er
:>flowing DP, but control torque loss at low RPMs as well.
:
:
:
:For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
:http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
:
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  1 20:58:21 1999
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From: "Jose Soriano" <amahoser@linkline.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <242EA98B2B7DD311985A0090277AED510F0DB3@CLEARCREEK.corp.netapp.com>
Subject: Team3S: Water Injection
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 20:12:31 -0800
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Anyone here have experience with the Spearco Water Injection kit? I went
ahead and purchased one from Accelerated. What is your feelings on it? Has
it proven valuable or should I spend the $$ and get the ERL kit?I heard that
the pump was weak... is this true? What kind of mixtures are you guys
finding to be appropiate? I heard that a 50/50 mix of water and methanol is
the best for performance and straight water is best for detonation control.
If you guys tell me that it doesn't work that good, I'll buy the ERL kit and
use the Spearco for front brake water misters!

Thanks
Jose Soriano
Amahoser@Linkline.com
'91 Stealth RT/TT


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  1 21:07:10 1999
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Water Injection
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:08:34 -0700
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The Spearco offering is about as economy as it gets for commercial kits.

The ERL kit is top shelf and likely not worth the added expense unless you
get the 3D mapped injector controller.

Another alternative is much heavier duty and is offered by Bowling Green
Customs.  It is intended for use on Grand Nationals (you know, those heavy
American V6 turbocharged cars that do 8s in the 1320').  It has a durable
pump, a pressure check valve and a number of nozzle choices.  It should be
just the ticket for a hopped-up VR4.

I have personally tried none of the above and have only direct experience
the Spearco kit.  It works, but it is crude compared to the ERL offering and
light duty compared to the BG Customs kit.

I will likely either be putting my own computer controlled system together
or using the one from BG Customs.  The ERL kit looks great, but I don't
really want to put out the cash for the full deal.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
>
> Anyone here have experience with the Spearco Water Injection kit? I went
> ahead and purchased one from Accelerated. What is your feelings on it? Has
> it proven valuable or should I spend the $$ and get the ERL kit?I
> heard that
> the pump was weak... is this true? What kind of mixtures are you guys
> finding to be appropiate? I heard that a 50/50 mix of water and
> methanol is
> the best for performance and straight water is best for
> detonation control.
> If you guys tell me that it doesn't work that good, I'll buy the
> ERL kit and
> use the Spearco for front brake water misters!
>
> Thanks
> Jose Soriano
> Amahoser@Linkline.com
> '91 Stealth RT/TT

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  1 21:18:31 1999
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From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection
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At 08:12 PM 12/1/99 -0800, Jose Soriano wrote:
>Anyone here have experience with the Spearco Water Injection kit?

That's next on my list, once I get the boost controller on. My intent is to
use it to prevent detonation when running for a long time under 1 bar of
boost. On road courses, we run full boost for up to 45 seconds at a time,
and I'm afraid of burning something up.

>If you guys tell me that it doesn't work that good, I'll buy the ERL kit and
>use the Spearco for front brake water misters!

I use the windshield washer pump for that. Works great! Dirt cheap, too!

Rich/old poop/94 VR4


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  1 21:18:44 1999
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From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: "Jose Soriano" <amahoser@linkline.com>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Water Injection
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 22:20:07 -0700
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I meant to comment on the water/alcohol mixture.

Pure water has a much higher heat of evaporation than alcohol or
alcohol/water mixture.  From strictly a cooling standpoint, pure water will
work best.  Water doesn't combust though, at least not at internal
combustion engine temperatures.  At higher ratios of water in the fuel/air
charge the water will begin to displace fuel thereby offsetting some of the
benefeits.  Water doesn't mix readily with fossils fuels, and so it may also
tend to "stick together" causing uneven combustion of the charge and
therefore less power.  Alcohol mixes readily with both water and fuel and
combusts easily.  It is added to the water to homogenize the mixture
resulting in more even combustion without significantly sacrificing the
cooling effect.

This is how and why it works although not all that use it understand why.
Some think alcohol is used because it adds power to the detonated charge.
By itself, this is not the case.  Alcohol is not as efficient a fuel as
fossil fuels, at least not in an engine designed to burn gasoline.  In the
context of water injection, alcohol *may* give back some of the power lost
due to excess water in the charge.

The 50/50 mixture is not set in stone, and in fact is likely too much
alcohol for moderate levels of water injection.  50/50 would be the maxium
you'd want to use.  Experimenting with 30/70 on up would be recommended.
This is just a guess, but I doubt you'd need 50/50 until you were running
the maximum feasible amount of water, which likely wouldn't happen until you
were attempting 27-30+ psi.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
>
> the pump was weak... is this true? What kind of mixtures are you guys
> finding to be appropiate? I heard that a 50/50 mix of water and
> methanol is
> the best for performance and straight water is best for
> detonation control.

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  1 22:52:31 1999
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Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 22:49:48 -0800
Subject: Team3S: resonator...WOT?
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can you someone explain:

the benefit of removing the "resonator"?

also what does "WOT" mean?


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  1 22:57:19 1999
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Subject: Team3S: resonator...WOT?
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As I just found out, I believe that WOT means Wide Open Throttle, or
'floored' in lamens terms :).


Latuh fuh U,
Benson
benson@2015.com

"-Do you ever have second thoughts?
-When do I ever have first thoughts?"

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  1 23:05:28 1999
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At 10:49 PM 12/1/99 -0800, gil_lee@usa.net wrote:
>can you someone explain: the benefit of removing the "resonator"?
>also what does "WOT" mean?
>
I know one of them: WOT means "wide open throttle."

Rich/old poop/94 VR4/workin' late
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 02:41:25 1999
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> That's next on my list, once I get the boost controller on. My intent is to
> use it to prevent detonation when running for a long time under 1 bar of
> boost.

Huh ? Why do you want to prevent detonation where no detonation is ? A long time under 1 bar of boost is a long time on the save side... no need to prevent detonation !! The problem starts at one bar and is getting worser i nthe higher boost region.

> I meant to comment on the water/alcohol mixture.

Ok, Barry already explained this and ther is only two reasons one needs alcohol :
1. temperatures below 0°C to prevent the water from freezing
2. add a little more stuff to be burnt as the stock fuel system is not able to deliver the needed amount !

There is no other need for spraying a mixture into the intake.

On the street, the detonation control works good and together with a properly tuned in fuel system provides the best performance and reliability. I had less good results on the dyno due to the fact that the water got heated up by the radiator too much (wehre my tank is installed) and therefore was already hot when sprayed in.

According to my 20-30 datalogger runs with and without WIS, I'm able to control knock up to 1.18 bars with a bigger pump and the MAF kit installed. There are no lean readings and only as much knock before the timing is retarded. Of course this is like running at the edge of the knife because a little denser weather and boost peaks up to 1.2 bars and knock is going up to dangerous level.

The positive aspect no one was talking about is the fact that a good WI system is also able to act as an additional intercooling device. This is the big advantage of the expensive ERL system as I'm using two nozzles with different diameters. the first is installed in the IC pipe at the front head (wher it sucks heat up, very, very bad design) and therefore cools down the temperature a lot. My temperature measures reached 72°C and more at the intake without the WI and 39°C with the system activated. This can directly be related to horsepower ! The second nozzle is in the y-pipe and controls detonation and therefore is a little bigger.

I'm using the top end ERL system with the 3D controller, but it is not really necessary. My current curve of the WI starts at 4500rpm at 0,6 bars of boost. I call this pre-cooling before the hi-po starts to burn the tires and as this is the typical start-to-go-over-stock boost. But before 1 bar I'm at full spray. Therefore the System 1s would be enough. In my point of view, the ERLs greatest (and most expensive) part is the electro magnetic fuel pump. The thing provides me up to 7 bars (!) of water pressure that allows you to create a really fine mist even trough the 0.9mm nozzle. The result is that the mixture within the chanber is getting very even.

Barry already scratched the drawbacks of a WIS. One of the most imprtant one is that each sytem should have a check valve so the airstream cannot suck water out of the water line. Water drops at low rpms can be very bad. The ERL system I have has a test circuit that knows when the pressure falls below a specific level and the mist would be degraded. An LED then lights up and the system is not operating anymore. It can be coupled with a relay to disable high boost. In general said, large water drops may kill the engine ! Another bad thing is that you may overcooling the chamber. This is no choke as the miixture ma not be burnt fully due to the exessive water in the chamber that finally steals away power. Lastly, one problem our cars already have is getting worser with WI ... the ignition system. The additional water prevents self ignition, i.e. detonation by cooling the chamber down. But then, the electrical resistance of the mixture is getting increased and the spark cannot tr!
avel that good anymore. A higher power ignition can hadle this but nor ours :-( Therefore, the plug gap may even be smaller and then the mixture may not be burnt good anymore due to this.

The last problem is the fact why I haven't gone further with dyno tuning and different nozzles as I do have some bad hesitation. The datalogger has recorded NOTHING abnormal, no knock, no lean situation just nothing but the hesitation is very noticeable and caused a strange curve on the dyno (5500 - 5700). I have not yet been able to go further with my testings as a good solution is not in sight yet. At least till today there is nothing on the aftermarket that may solve the problem as in my opinion, the coil pack is the problem.

Ok, I've written a lot (a little bit more than the chatters) and some may be confused and some not, so feel free to ask questions. I'd like to summarize :
1. WIS works and prevents detonation, cleans the carbon out and helps in additional intercooling
2. A fuel/alcohol mixture is only needed for winter driving or when the fuel system is at its end
3. As always, the user must take care of the possible problems as any mod gives you a drawback.

If you are looking for a WI system then make sure it has a high powered pump and output that is able to deblock nozzles (selfcleaning). Also use a good boost-switch and find a place where the tank can be mounted without the water heated up too much (I may use Ice-water in summer, hehe). The cost of the systems divert a lot but as usual you will get what you paid for. The bigger WIS for the GN is as expensive as the System 1 from ERL although I recommend the 1s with the stronger pump to be able to drive two nozzles.

Roger
93'3000GT TT
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 02:41:30 1999
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Calculating the air flow on a NA will show you that any change in diameter will not help you. In my point of view, the stock downpipe isn't good designed as the rear bank outlet goes into the front airstream in a 90° angle. But please always understand that there have been some ingeneers that calculated the exhaust system and you are changing one parameter of the calculation. How do you know if you loose some low end torque then ?

Not to sound negative but the most freeflowing exhaust is not the best solution ! If you do this, start from scratch and let one develop some good equal lenght headers with diameter changes to increase the velocity and create a little backpressure. Then the downpipe must be designed for another diameter change to create the rest of the backpressure as well as for an equal lenght of both connections to the headers. After this you can have a 2 1/2 inch piping that is enough for a 3litre NAback to the muffler. This part should then be as free as possible as well as the diameter can be a s large as you want but anything above 2 1/2 inch is overkill (and we all this term, hehe). You can then opt for the cheaper Borla TT exhaust if it fits the rear where no diff is then (dunno).

Regarding the intake, I have mathematically proven that an electric charger will increase power and Bob saw some horses on the dyno too. Now a nice smooth intake part will help to prevent any unneded turbolence but will you see a gain of only this mod ? Probably not as the air filter is still a bigger restriction.

Now what does a larger throttle body ? It is able to feed more air into the engine. Bot how the heck to you want to increase the amount of air sucked in by a naturally aspirated engine ? Yes, exactly, the heads flow must be increased, the lift and duration of the valves changed and the exhaust freed up.

As said, I do not see much gain from a DP on the NA as there are no stupid bends and the airflow is much less than on the turbos. But the music always sounds better with more players in the band and therefore start with headers that are not yet existing. Smooting out the intake is always a good idea and I support it although that you will only see a gain in combination with an eRam or so. The larger TB is bogus unless the headwork has been done. All this NA mods already cause me some headache on my 94'Z28. I have a lot work done and only got simple 20 hp to the wheels. This included : K&N intake, larger TB, 1.6 roller rockers, stiffer valve springs, hardened pushrods, guideplates, titanium valve seats and locks, MAC headers, downpipe (called y-pipe on the f-bodies), high flow cat, Borla Exhaust with y before muffler. None of the mod gave more than 2-5 horses or even any hp but them team plays together and you can only benefit of a larger TB if you increase the amount of air to!
be sucked in as well as also this air must then be released too.

It may really help if one can draw a good picture of the NA or turbos (mine is a little but crappy) and we can identify the point where what can be done. I'm relatively good on calculations and know where to test what so we may find some solutions in the future.

Roger
93'3000GT TT

----- Original Message -----
From: Mohler, Jeff <jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
To: <ryanp@crcwnet.com>; Stealth List <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 3:08 AM
Subject: RE: Team3S: NA news.


> A larger initial exhaust system *downpipe* on an NA isnt a bad idea.
>
> You want to be able to tune/manage backpressure for specific power bands on the
> N/A.

> Its much easier to manage/control that backpressure "range" in the exhaust
> system with a muffler/resonator/convertor once you get the initial bad designs
> out of the way.

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 03:06:22 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection
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Do you think the ignition of the Electomotive TecII will be "strong" enough?
As far as I know Electromotives ignition is the best you can get. (and not
very expensive either)

/Mikael Akesson http://www.3000gt.nu

----- Original Message -----
From: R.G. <robby@freesurf.ch>
<BIG SNIP>
Lastly, one problem our cars already have is getting worser with WI ... the
ignition system. The additional water prevents self ignition, i.e.
detonation by cooling the chamber down. But then, the electrical resistance
of the mixture is getting increased and the spark cannot travel that good
anymore. A higher power ignition can hadle this but nor ours :-( Therefore,
the plug gap may even be smaller and then the mixture may not be burnt good
anymore due to this.


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 03:16:42 1999
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From: "Jose Soriano" <amahoser@linkline.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <004e01bf3c83$48addf40$88c10118@home.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection
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> I will likely either be putting my own computer controlled system together
> or using the one from BG Customs.  The ERL kit looks great, but I don't
> really want to put out the cash for the full deal.
>
>
I read somewhere of someone using a "electric trailer brake" backwards so
that the more acceleration you have, the more voltage it feeds to the water
pump... Sound good? I might give it a try. Maybe I'll just purchase a
beefier water pump and use the trailer brake method... with the Spearco
system... Might be a good alternative to the computer......

Jose Soriano
Amahoser@Linkline.com


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 04:47:42 1999
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From: "Mohler, Jeff" <jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Water Injection
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 04:50:49 -0800
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:Huh ? Why do you want to prevent detonation where no
:detonation is ? A long time under 1 bar of boost is a long
:time on the save side... no need to prevent detonation !! The
:problem starts at one bar and is getting worser i nthe higher
:boost region.
---

You mean...<choke>..the DARK SIDE!?
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 05:19:10 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection
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> excerpt from "AutoSpeed" article about water injection......
>
> Another entirely different way of varying the water injection rate is to
> drive the pump with a trailer electric brake controller. These devices are
> available from caravan and similar suppliers and are designed to energise
> the electro-magnets that are located in the brake assemblies of some
> caravans and trailers. One class of controllers does this by measuring the
> braking force that the car is undergoing and increasing its output voltage
> proportionally. I envisage the controller reversed in orientation so that it
> measures acceleration. If it was then connected to the water injection pump,
> the harder the car accelerated, the higher would be the pump speed and so
> the greater would be the addition of water into the intake air!

This is high danger ! The guy who wrote the article may have never ever driven a
turbo car. How heavy is your accelleration in 4th at 4500, WOT ?? Not really
neck-slapping I'd say. But look at your boost ... it pegs to the top !

And, you know, our cars are no trailers, LOL. Our brakes are activated by fluid
pressure (i.e. hydraulic) and not with any low power electro magnet. The guy was
talking about light-weight funny cars with solenoid brakes. Indicating voltage
to the rotating assembly causes an increase in current flow at the static parts.
This works simply like an e-motor with stator(s) and a rotor. But hey, this is
for cars without hydraulic brakes and this is way, way out of discussion for our
cars. Also note that the guy may wrote in general about water injection as
cooling the intake always helps any car. Forget this idea and go the right way.

Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 06:01:41 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection
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Hi Roger,

It's not cheap but if you compare to that you must have, VPC, GCC (or split
second) and TMO datalogger and something like a MSD setup for the ignition,
to get the same funtionality (and you still don't) then it's a bargain!

I paid 1604$ (incl 25% tax!) for the Electromotive TecII, this includes all
sensors (map, clt, tp etc), trigger wheel, magnetic pickup and coils. You
have to add injector connectors and ignition cables. You also have to
manufacture a custom bracket for the magnetic pickup. This includes full
fuel and ignition management and also the PC based engine management
software with log function. (also the possiblity to trigger water injection
from the knock sensor, that's cool)

You know my route now...

/Mikael Akesson http://www.3000gt.nu

----- Original Message -----
From: R.G. <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: Mikael Åkesson <vr4@bahnhof.se>
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection


> Do you think the ignition of the Electomotive TecII will be "strong"
enough?

To be tested ! I think yeas because the stock coils are eliminated.

> As far as I know Electromotives ignition is the best you can get. (and not
> very expensive either)

Cheap ???? What are your pricing for a simple ignition system ?? The last I
saw was $1000.

Lemme know :)
Roger

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 07:32:11 1999
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Subject: Team3S: Update - Nitrous being added
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OK. I never wanted to use Nitrous. Here is the logic that changed my mind.
We estimate each 1/2 of the engine to be like running a 1.6L x2=3.2L.
Using a large turbo capable of 600HP how long will it take a 1.6L 3 cyl eng
to spool it up? Answer - Forever. To compensate, we can rev to 6500 & drop
the clutch. I'd be lucky If I last 5 runs without breaking something
expensive.
If we use Nitrous (just a small shot) we can slip launch easy & get to
the rpm band fast.  Then kill the Nitrous & let the turbos take over.
For the sake of my drive train, Nitrous is the kinder solution. Besides, my
engine is race built to handle it. Will my 2-Bolt main take all this? We
think YES.
But, we will be installing 6 EGT gauges to keep an eye on every cylinder.
Who will have time to even look at them is beyond me. A video camera for
review later will record the specifics :)
Arty 91 VR-4-X   X = Expermintal
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 08:02:31 1999
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From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Water Injection
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>:Huh ? Why do you want to prevent detonation where no
>:detonation is ? A long time under 1 bar of boost is a long
>:time on the save side... no need to prevent detonation !! The
>:problem starts at one bar and is getting worser i nthe higher
>:boost region.
>---
>You mean...<choke>..the DARK SIDE!?

An instructor at Road America told me he's seen many turbo cars with boost
controllers go home on trailers. It seems that drag racers can get away
with running high boost for 12 seconds or so, but running continuous high
boost for 20-30 minutes at a time kills motors. I know they run flat out on
the autobahns for long periods of time without blowing motors, but I figger
it's better to be safe than sorry, and water injection seems like a pretty
cheap engine insurance policy. Besides, maybe I'll get brave, put in some
103 octane, and crank the boost to 18 psi.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4

>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 08:03:13 1999
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        <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>, "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection
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Hey Mikael;

Give us the low down on this Electromotive Tec11??  I haven't heard of it,
and for the price you quote it has to has good features...you 'generally'
get what you pay for.  Can you elaborate a bit more on it??

BEst

Darc


-----Original Message-----
From: Mikael Åkesson <vr4@bahnhof.se>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>; R.G.
<robby@freesurf.ch>
Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 6:02 AM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection


>Hi Roger,
>
>It's not cheap but if you compare to that you must have, VPC, GCC (or split
>second) and TMO datalogger and something like a MSD setup for the ignition,
>to get the same funtionality (and you still don't) then it's a bargain!
>
>I paid 1604$ (incl 25% tax!) for the Electromotive TecII, this includes all
>sensors (map, clt, tp etc), trigger wheel, magnetic pickup and coils. You
>have to add injector connectors and ignition cables. You also have to
>manufacture a custom bracket for the magnetic pickup. This includes full
>fuel and ignition management and also the PC based engine management
>software with log function. (also the possiblity to trigger water injection
>from the knock sensor, that's cool)
>
>You know my route now...
>
>/Mikael Akesson http://www.3000gt.nu
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: R.G. <robby@freesurf.ch>
>To: Mikael Åkesson <vr4@bahnhof.se>
>Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 12:12 PM
>Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection
>
>
>> Do you think the ignition of the Electomotive TecII will be "strong"
>enough?
>
>To be tested ! I think yeas because the stock coils are eliminated.
>
>> As far as I know Electromotives ignition is the best you can get. (and
not
>> very expensive either)
>
>Cheap ???? What are your pricing for a simple ignition system ?? The last I
>saw was $1000.
>
>Lemme know :)
>Roger
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 08:07:51 1999
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Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 10:11:20 -0600
From: Jeff Crabtree <wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com>
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Ok guys and gals,

    It's gotten serious.  I'm tired of not driving my car.  I AM going
to start pulling the engine out to rebuild and would like some
recomendations about what I need to do it.  If anybody has any advice on
special tools, what to do first, what not to do first, who to call(and
who NOT to call), etc., I'm all ears.  I'm on a somewhat tight budget,
so the sky is not the limit.  I DO, however, want to do it the right
way.

    I plan on investing in a digital camera so that I can take pictures
along the way.  I figure if I get in a bind, I can always refer back to
the pics to see how things were before I happened to them.

    I've got two weeks of vacation starting at the end of June.  I'm
setting that as my deadline to have this project finished.  I'm driving
to Florida and I want to take the Stealth, not the Jeep!  I'll be
counting on you guys alot.

Please help.
--
-Jeff Crabtree
    '91 Stealth R/T TT(3/SI #499)
          '93 Wrangler 4.0L Sport
               St. Louis, MO


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 09:11:24 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Update - Nitrous being added
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Arty, one calculation bogus :

> Using a large turbo capable of 600HP how long will it take a 1.6L 3 cyl eng
> to spool it up? Answer - Forever.

You only need a turbo that produces 300hp (a little more of course), because you have two of them ! Only half of the air is need per turbo. Calculate this and you'll see that the turbo is only a 15g that is capable of the desired air.

> If we use Nitrous (just a small shot) we can slip launch easy & get to
> the rpm band fast.  Then kill the Nitrous & let the turbos take over.
> For the sake of my drive train, Nitrous is the kinder solution.

And the bang where the Nitrous kicks in ? This is a extreme kick-in (at least at the Camaro I've driven) and is as harmful as dumping the clutch.

> Besides, my engine is race built to handle it. Will my 2-Bolt main take all this? We
> think YES.

Depending on the pressure you run on I belive it can withstand the power. BUT, you know torque is the important key factor for this. The more I'd ask is if the head gaskets are withstanding this. But I think a 50hp shot should be ok.

> But, we will be installing 6 EGT gauges to keep an eye on every cylinder.
> Who will have time to even look at them is beyond me. A video camera for
> review later will record the specifics :)

Arty, think again about this (or was this only for fun ??) Each EGT probe has a diameter and even placing one before the turbo seems to steel away from the exhaust diameter. Now one isn't really a problem there but it will become with one in each header pipe. here the simple velocitiy enhancement around the probe doesn't work well anymore. And finaly, you simply do not have the place for them. I think it would make more sense to buy a datalogger as this is cheaper and you will save video-tapes for coyote-cartoons :)

> Arty 91 VR-4-X   X = Expermintal

Better : content of the X-files (Arghhhhh, Scully is driving my car....)

Roger
93'300000000 GT TTTTTTT (mod : keyboard error)
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 09:11:28 1999
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> An instructor at Road America told me he's seen many turbo cars with boost
> controllers go home on trailers.
<snip>
Yes, sure, WI helps as a bigger intercooler does , larger turbos do and more fuel does.

You wrote :
> My intent is to use it to prevent detonation when running for a long time
> under 1 bar of boost.
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hääääää ??? WI is used to prevent detonation above the danger line, above 1 bar of boost. I think you meant runnign a long time with boost of 1 bars. On the dyno this is what we've done and therefore our measures are always a worst case. Best case is simply said, walking on the dark side with sunglasses.

> it's better to be safe than sorry, and water injection seems like a pretty
> cheap engine insurance policy. Besides, maybe I'll get brave, put in some
> 103 octane, and crank the boost to 18 psi.

Ah, ok, but why do you still run a bleeder or plopp-valve and no datalogger to see dangerous signs ? These are the first insurance policies you should take care of. Water injection comes pretty much at the end of the line and without a logger and EGT it's hard to tune it in correctly !

Roger
93'3000GT TT

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 09:20:08 1999
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Hey folks:

Strictly in the FWIW category, I'll be asking Rich to sign me off the
list this afternoon.  Should be back up and running Monday morning.   If
anyone's looking for me, please e-mail me privately, and I'll get back
with you whence I return.

And now back to our regularly scheduled program, already in progress...

Best regards,

SJ
___________________________________________________________________
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 09:23:05 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection
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>
>> it's better to be safe than sorry, and water injection seems like a pretty
>> cheap engine insurance policy. Besides, maybe I'll get brave, put in some
>> 103 octane, and crank the boost to 18 psi.
>
>Ah, ok, but why do you still run a bleeder or plopp-valve and no
datalogger to see dangerous signs ? These are the first insurance policies
you should take care of. Water injection comes pretty much at the end of
the line and without a logger and EGT it's hard to tune it in correctly !

I just want to run 15 psi on a road course without burning out the rings,
so I figgered that water injection would give me a safety margin. I'm not
trying to tune anything for maximum output. I'll do all that data logger
and electronic boost control stuff later. Anything wrong with this approach?

Rich


>
>Roger
>93'3000GT TT
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 09:28:20 1999
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Personally I haven't seen anything wrong with a 50-100hp shot of Nitrous. Jack T ran a 50hp shot when he did his 10 second run (that still stands as #1 in the Fastest list if I'm not mistaken) ran back in June of 97. The stats show an increase approx .5 seconds quicker than his 11.303 (his fastest w/o Nitrous) and .15 of it was in the first 60 feet. As long as the Nitrous shot isn't excessive (most Camaros run higher than100hp shots, I think 50hp is enough for us) it won't hurt anything. But that's my humble
non-motorhead only speaking from past experiences (of others) opinion. So i'm not exactly the best guy to listen to. But are large turbos fully spun when most of you quicker guys have the clutch already out (even when slipped and not dumped)? Personally I think a lil nitrous between 10 and 35mph is a good thing (maybe only for whiplash tho. heheh)..

--Steve "Loco3KGT" Gula

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 09:40:27 1999
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> According to my 20-30 datalogger runs with and without WIS, I'm able to
> control knock up to 1.18 bars with a bigger pump and the MAF kit installed.
> There are no lean readings and only as much knock before the timing is
> retarded. Of course this is like running at the edge of the knife because
> a little denser weather and boost peaks up to 1.2 bars and knock is going
> up to dangerous level.

What is up with this?  1.18 is not even 17 psi!  I thought the benefits of water
injection were equivalent to fuel octane of over 140 or so.  I hoped/expected
with water injection that we could avoid knock up to 23-25 psi.  Why is knock
still occuring at such a low psi with WI?  Is there still more WI tuning to
perform?


-----
I'm suprised you stopped me officer, Dunkin Donuts has a 3 for 1 special!

Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 09:43:06 1999
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Roger, check again...My CFM's have been dramatically increased.
We are using 2 (two) 600Hp turbos. 2 (two) Throttle Bodies
2 front mounted intercoolers - 2 separate exhausts - 2 of everything :)
Maybe this car needs a copilot too?
Arty

In a message dated 12/2/99 9:13:35 AM Pacific Standard Time,
robby@freesurf.ch writes:

<< ubj:  Re: Team3S: Update - Nitrous being added
Date:  12/2/99 9:13:35 AM Pacific Standard Time
From:  robby@freesurf.ch (R.G.)
Sender:    owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
To:    stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com

Arty, one calculation bogus :

> Using a large turbo capable of 600HP how long will it take a 1.6L 3 cyl
eng
> to spool it up? Answer - Forever.

You only need a turbo that produces 300hp (a little more of course), because
you have two of them ! Only half of the air is need per turbo. Calculate this
and you'll see that the turbo is only a 15g that is capable of the desired
air.
  >>
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 10:28:14 1999
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From: "Landis, Michael" <MLandis@casham.com>
To: wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com
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Subject: RE: Team3S: Engine Preparations (long post)
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 12:28:02 -0600
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Hi Jeff - I overhauled my NA engine this summer due to a seized water pump
(shredded timing belt, bent valves, long, sad tale...).  While it wasn't
easy, it wasn't as daunting as I first thought it would be.  My neighbor,
Jim, is a motorhead, and offered to help me tackle the job.  We did it over
three week-ends with a few week-nights in between, for a little under $1500
- most of that for the overhaul kit (pistons, rings, gaskets) and machine
work.  The rest was for miscellaneous parts and supplies.

Your TT will obviously have some additional plumbing to deal with, and I
can't offer any insight there.  However, if I had mine to do over again, I'd
do a better job of labeling and bagging the various nuts and bolts.  We
mistakenly used course-threaded bolts for the block-to-transaxle attachment
and stripped the holes.  Ooops.  Now we know better, but the damage is done.
Most of the time you can figure out what goes where - kind of like a jigsaw
puzzle - but there can be surprises using this method.  Next time I'll take
more care keeping track of what goes where.  I video-taped the engine
compartment - especially wiring and vacuum line routing.  This came in
handy, but some additional notes or photos might have helped some more.
Once we got started, we were too busy to stop and take more notes, etc.  And
of course, the quicker you can start and finish the job, the better.  We
stretched it out over almost four weeks, and spent some time at the end
asking each other "do you remember where this goes?"

A couple of folks advised me to NOT have the crank turned.  Seems Mitsu uses
a nitride coating on the journals that goes away if you turn it.  Some folks
have spun bearings within a few hundred miles after an overhaul due to this.
Of course the official Mitsu dealership position is to replace the crank,
not have it turned.  But this is also the official Chevy, Ford, Chrysler,
Dodge, fill-in-the-blank-manufacturer, dealership position when it comes to
crankshaft problems - replace it, don't fix it. 

Nitriding puts a very thin (few thousandths), very hard layer on the
journals.  However, it is not entirely uniform.  Thus the use of
"hand-select" journal bearings on our cars. (While nitriding is not common
among domestic manufacturers, neither is it "rare".  I found a local
heat-treating shop that does it, and the guy was kind enough to educate me a
little.  Educate yourself a little in this area, too.  Search the web -
there's info out there...)  Take great care noting which bearings came from
which journals in case you don't need to turn your crank and want to reuse
the bearings.  My car had 112K miles on it and was showing a little
bearing/journal wear.  Plus it looked like the bearings may have gotten
hammered some when the pistons and valves dinged each other.  After
consulting with my machinist (who checked his sources), and discussing it
with Jim, we elected to grind the journals and put in standard oversized
bearings anyway.  I did NOT have the crank nitrided afterwards (it's a few
hundred bucks).  I've got about 2,500 miles on the freshened up engine so
far, with no problems, and the car runs like a champ.  But remember, my
car's a NA, not turbo.  Some of the other guys (and gals) on the list may
have additional insight in this area.  Find a good machine shop, and ask 'em
if they've done any of these engines before.  (My machinist had done several
of the mini-van V-6's, which use the same block, but that's about where the
similarities end.  However, he had about 40 years experience (yeah - he's
OLD), and Jim had used him for years for building race motors, etc.)  Peg
'em about their knowledge of the crankshaft treatment, etc.  Ask 'em what
your options are if you spin a bearing a month down the road (warrantee).

As far as tools and stuff is concerned, I wouldn't even get started without
the overhaul manual.  Note that this is a different manual than the standard
shop manual.  I've got the standard shop manual and electrical manual, and
ordered the CD ROM manual from Vineet Singh (see http://manualcd.dsm.org
<http://manualcd.dsm.org>  )  which included the overhaul manual on it.  It
was a lifesaver.  Otherwise, I was able to get by without any of the special
tools (which is good, since my local dealer wouldn't/couldn't sell them to
me anyway...).

I'll bare my soul a little, and highlight the stupid shade-tree mechanic
mistakes we made along the way, in the hope that it may save you a couple of
hundred bucks.  Overall, most of the mistakes we made were in getting the
engine out and back in...

First off, we cracked the flange on the main crankshaft pulley (harmonic
dampener on domestic V-8s...) when we pulled the engine out of the bay.  The
book says to remove the transaxle.  We just tried to shift it back out of
the way towards the front passenger tire.  Nice try, but not enough room.
I'm sure we hit the pulley against the fender-well or strut tower or
something else when trying to angle the engine enough to get it off of the
transaxle and out of the engine bay.  Then we had to go ahead and remove the
axles in order to get the transaxle out of the way enough for reassembly.
All in all, our "shortcut" cost us more time jacking with it.  Just remove
the transaxle (and axles?) and anything else the books says, and get them
out of your way.  It'll save you time and money.  The pulley costs around
$220 new from the dealer.  I got one from M&R Recycling for $125.
Unfortunately, they sent me one off of an Eclipse the first time around, so
I had to wait another three or four days for the right part to show up.
Bummer.

If that wasn't enough, I cracked the flange on the crankshaft sprocket
trying to get it off - about a $50 dollar mistake.  To avoid this, remove
all of the bolts holding the front pump (oil pump) in place, then gently
(gently) pry the front pump off of the front face of the block.  This should
slide the sprocket off the crank snout.  I tried putting a screwdriver blade
between the sprocket and front pump and prying it off directly, and it
chipped the flange.  Bad move.  Again, others on the list may have other
tricks.

And lastly, we broke the tab off of the power steering pump sensor - again,
probably hit it against something when removing the engine.  This part was
only about $15, but it took me days to get a Dodge dealer to identify it
("What the hell you talking about - a power steering pump sensor?  What's it
for? I don't think I got none of them...") and special order it.  Another
four days...

I took a lot of photos but haven't had time to get them up on my web-site
yet.  I keep saying I'm going to do that soon, but I'm trying to wrap up a
home remodeling project before year-end, so I'm pretty busy.  If I get a
chance, I'll do that in the next couple of weeks and post a note to the
list.  Otherwise, I wish you luck.  If you can, find a buddy who knows more
than you do.  But then again, about halfway through my overhaul, Jim said
"You know, after I do one more of these, that'll be two that I've done..."
Hmmmmm.  "Thanks for the confidence builder, Jim."

Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Crabtree [SMTP:wjcrabtree@sprintmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 10:11 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Engine Preparations

Ok guys and gals,

    It's gotten serious.  I'm tired of not driving my car.  I AM
going
to start pulling the engine out to rebuild and would like some
recomendations about what I need to do it.  If anybody has any
advice on
special tools, what to do first, what not to do first, who to
call(and
who NOT to call), etc., I'm all ears.  I'm on a somewhat tight
budget,
so the sky is not the limit.  I DO, however, want to do it the right
way.

    I plan on investing in a digital camera so that I can take
pictures
along the way.  I figure if I get in a bind, I can always refer back
to
the pics to see how things were before I happened to them.

    I've got two weeks of vacation starting at the end of June.  I'm
setting that as my deadline to have this project finished.  I'm
driving
to Florida and I want to take the Stealth, not the Jeep!  I'll be
counting on you guys alot.

Please help.
--
-Jeff Crabtree
    '91 Stealth R/T TT(3/SI #499)
          '93 Wrangler 4.0L Sport
               St. Louis, MO


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 11:23:34 1999
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References: <0.4c586e6e.25780995@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Update - Nitrous being added
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> Roger, check again...My CFM's have been dramatically increased.
> We are using 2 (two) 600Hp turbos. 2 (two) Throttle Bodies
> 2 front mounted intercoolers - 2 separate exhausts - 2 of everything :)
> Maybe this car needs a copilot too?

Gulp, maybe we need a second list for monsters, Godzillas and other
earth-killing stuff, hahaha. What about, ahem .. the tranny and drivetrain ?
Do you think about converting to rear-wheel drive ?

Ok, two TB, etc. but is the intake plenum able to handle this or is it
totally redesigned too ?

Roger
93'3000GT TT


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 11:34:24 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 20:32:24 +0100
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> I just want to run 15 psi on a road course without burning out the rings,
> so I figgered that water injection would give me a safety margin. I'm not
> trying to tune anything for maximum output. I'll do all that data logger
> and electronic boost control stuff later. Anything wrong with this
approach?

Then you can simply use the cheapest system around where you don't have to
tune it in in any way. Works ok as intercooling add-on (this is what you
want for the circle tracks)

Roger
93'3000GT TT


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 11:36:08 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection
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> What is up with this?  1.18 is not even 17 psi!  I thought the benefits of
water
> injection were equivalent to fuel octane of over 140 or so.  I
hoped/expected
> with water injection that we could avoid knock up to 23-25 psi.  Why is
knock
> still occuring at such a low psi with WI?  Is there still more WI tuning
to
> perform?

There is still more tuning necessary as the ignition is the bottleneck at
the moment. But I may ask you where to get the needed fuel from to run more
than 1.2 bars ?? No chance with the stock injectors ! You can cut fuel
pressure drops quickly and the injectors are still maxxed out !

Roger
93'3000GT TT



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 12:06:31 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Update - Nitrous being added
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Roger, its all totally custom as far as the plumbing & manifold etc.
No way this thing works with anything even close to stock. I can't even close
the stock hood. On the rear wheel drive, it would be faster but I'd be
disqualified from running the Quick 8 if I go rear wheel drive.
Then I may as well go tube frame too.
If I need any more HP I'll get a sticker. :)
Guys, this is exciting. I can't wait to run it. Everybody want to know what
it
costs. Me too. I've been afraid to figure it out. I really don't know
and don't want to know. One day I'll do it. Not now.
Arty


In a message dated 12/2/99 11:25:32 AM Pacific Standard Time,
robby@freesurf.ch writes:

<<  Roger, check again...My CFM's have been dramatically increased.
> We are using 2 (two) 600Hp turbos. 2 (two) Throttle Bodies
> 2 front mounted intercoolers - 2 separate exhausts - 2 of everything :)
> Maybe this car needs a copilot too?

Gulp, maybe we need a second list for monsters, Godzillas and other
earth-killing stuff, hahaha. What about, ahem .. the tranny and drivetrain ?
Do you think about converting to rear-wheel drive ?

Ok, two TB, etc. but is the intake plenum able to handle this or is it
totally redesigned too ?

Roger
93'3000GT TT
  >>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 12:44:02 1999
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> > What is up with this?  1.18 is not even 17 psi!  I thought the benefits of
> water
> > injection were equivalent to fuel octane of over 140 or so.  I
> hoped/expected
> > with water injection that we could avoid knock up to 23-25 psi.  Why is
> knock
> > still occuring at such a low psi with WI?  Is there still more WI tuning
> to
> > perform?
>
> There is still more tuning necessary as the ignition is the bottleneck at
> the moment. But I may ask you where to get the needed fuel from to run more
> than 1.2 bars ?? No chance with the stock injectors ! You can cut fuel
> pressure drops quickly and the injectors are still maxxed out !

If I have an upgraded fuel system with 720 cc injectors and dump fuel in, will I
still see knock at 17 psi with WI?  18 psi?

Is an ignition upgrade going to be the cure-all for the early knock problem?

My current mid-life crisis dream is not as ambitious as Arty's or numerous
others.  I'd just like to upgrade my '91 VR4 to a '95 with ECS and OBDII, get an
OBDII datalogger for tuning, install 15G's, Split-Second system, 720cc
injectors, etc (BC, fuel pump, pistons & rings) (not necessarily in that order
;)).  I was hoping to install an ERL WI and run 23 psi with no knock!  Is my
dream unrealistic?

Your data is showing knock starting at 17 psi with a non-lean condition.  This
is very disappointing since WI is supposed to be equivalent to 140+ octane
fuel.  What should max boost be with 140 octane fuel?

Others have reported running 20+ psi.  Folks are upgrading to turbos greater
than 15G's.  Pete Palmara is installing the monster Greddy turbos, others have
installed GT-Pro's hybrids, etc.   What's going on here?  Are folks just
installing these monster turbos, running high boost, and ignoring the
fact/probability that they are detonating?  Do they just not care that they
knock since they only boost for 1320 feet?  Is there another way to eliminate
knock?   I'm depressed, I'm going to lunch now :).
--
I'm surprised you stopped me officer, Dunkin Donuts has a 3 for 1 special!

Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 13:41:51 1999
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From: "Landis, Michael" <MLandis@casham.com>
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Subject: RE: Team3S: Update - Nitrous being added
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So did I miss something here?  Where are the pictures, man?!?!?!  Show me da
beast!

-----Original Message-----
From: Aso8@aol.com [SMTP:Aso8@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 2:06 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Cc: Aso8@aol.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Update - Nitrous being added

Roger, its all totally custom as far as the plumbing & manifold etc.
No way this thing works with anything even close to stock. I can't
even close
the stock hood. On the rear wheel drive, it would be faster but I'd
be
disqualified from running the Quick 8 if I go rear wheel drive.
Then I may as well go tube frame too.
If I need any more HP I'll get a sticker. :)
Guys, this is exciting. I can't wait to run it. Everybody want to
know what
it
costs. Me too. I've been afraid to figure it out. I really don't
know
and don't want to know. One day I'll do it. Not now.
Arty


In a message dated 12/2/99 11:25:32 AM Pacific Standard Time,
robby@freesurf.ch writes:

<<  Roger, check again...My CFM's have been dramatically increased.
> We are using 2 (two) 600Hp turbos. 2 (two) Throttle Bodies
> 2 front mounted intercoolers - 2 separate exhausts - 2 of
everything :)
> Maybe this car needs a copilot too?

Gulp, maybe we need a second list for monsters, Godzillas and other
earth-killing stuff, hahaha. What about, ahem .. the tranny and
drivetrain ?
Do you think about converting to rear-wheel drive ?

Ok, two TB, etc. but is the intake plenum able to handle this or is
it
totally redesigned too ?

Roger
93'3000GT TT
  >>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 14:00:13 1999
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Subject: Team3S: Finally
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Finally! To make a long story short, I've finally saved enough money to buy
a Stealth.. (yep, I like to buy cars with cash). I asked a long time ago
(though i doubt anyone remembers), but what are some good places on the net
to buy used cars? Autotrader's the only decent one i know of since they took
over traderonline..any others? And, What I'm looking to buy is a '94
TT...what are some good places to look for upgrades? Eventually, I'm
planning on doing the whole 9 yards in upgrades. Any help would be great.
Thanks!

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 14:27:26 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection
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> If I have an upgraded fuel system with 720 cc injectors and dump fuel in,
will I
> still see knock at 17 psi with WI?  18 psi?

The idea is the combination of fuel and water by using simple pump gas. I'm
positive that high psi is possible but the turbos are way out of ther
efficiency island :(

> Is an ignition upgrade going to be the cure-all for the early knock
problem?

This is the theory as gapping down the plugs to 0.030 is getting rid of the
problem but calls others. Therefore an increased energy level at the plugs
is desired ! I'm working on a solution with GN coil packs but I can't say
anything yet. Also a TechnoMotive ignition would help but this is probably
an expensive solution.

> My current mid-life crisis dream is not as ambitious as Arty's or numerous
> others.  I'd just like to upgrade my '91 VR4 to a '95 with ECS and OBDII,
get an
> OBDII datalogger for tuning, install 15G's, Split-Second system, 720cc
> injectors, etc (BC, fuel pump, pistons & rings) (not necessarily in that
order
> ;)).

But this IS mid-life crisis, LOL. Why the heck do you want to upgrade your
91 with the OBDII stuff ?? Makes no sense to me at all ??? The rest is cool
and the 15g are appropriate for the targeted power. This is pretty close to
my setup then, although I have headers and the big GT Pro turbos ready to go
in.

>  I was hoping to install an ERL WI and run 23 psi with no knock!  Is my
> dream unrealistic?

Well, with dumping fuel in I'm pretty sure you can run such high boost. The
WI will make this even better and allows you to run such a high boost with
pump gas.

> Your data is showing knock starting at 17 psi with a non-lean condition.
This
> is very disappointing since WI is supposed to be equivalent to 140+ octane
> fuel.  What should max boost be with 140 octane fuel?

How do we know if the stock pistons/rings withstand 20 psi ? Also if one has
a noisy valvetrain, how will the knock sensor pick up this stuff (this is
why it is installed on a bracket between the banks). Over the years, this
bracket got rusty as well as the KS is probably to hard in its seat. I speak
of "false knock" and noone can tell us how this can be eliminated. I'll
definitely replace the bracket when installing the new injectors.

> Others have reported running 20+ psi.  Folks are upgrading to turbos
greater
> than 15G's.  Pete Palmara is installing the monster Greddy turbos, others
have
> installed GT-Pro's hybrids, etc.   What's going on here?  Are folks just
> installing these monster turbos, running high boost, and ignoring the
> fact/probability that they are detonating?

What do they : Looking on a A/F meter (with our crap O2 sensors) and on an
EGT gauge (what is accurate). Running the car below the danger zone of the
EGT should indicate that there are no problems ... but noone is really sure.
Before I got the logger I had the car on the dyno and we cranked up boost
until the power went down instead of up. This is where the timing got
retarded. Now, boost had then be turned down a little for safety and this
resulted in 1.00 bars max. Now with the datalogger it's easier to find the
dark zone as a dyno session always resulted in $100 less in my pocket (gulp)

> Do they just not care that they knock since they only boost for 1320 feet
?

Well, knock appears regardless of track or street. The only reason knock is
less o nthe track is the fact that the car is maybe not heated up that much.

> Is there another way to eliminate knock ?

We know that a large FMIC and as smooth piping as possible results in higher
boost at the throttle and therefore the turbos have not to work that hard.
Therefore the discharge temp is lower, the IC reduce it even more what
finally results in less danger for detonation and more power.

>  I'm depressed, I'm going to lunch now :)

I was depressed as well until I was able to control the amount of fuel. Now
the water injection does more positive than it did with the less fuel and I
feel a little better although the ignition problem is not yet fixed.

A sidenote : Some 3S owners also have a datalogger now but it seems they
either don't use it or don't want to share the logs. I know that there is a
car that has a Spearco WIS installed and I was told they run up to 20 psi
without problems and the stock fuel system. I wanted to see a datalog to be
able to compare to my results. But I never got a log of them :( Only Joe and
another guy sent me their logs for analysis and it was very interesting to
see the difference in the VPC setup and my ARC setup with currently stock
injectors.

Guys, please note that we can learn and find new solutions only with sharing
data and ideas. When I do a clean-up on my page I will store all logs on my
pages for reference. It would be nice to have a centralized DB like the DSM
guys have (not fully completed) and I will gather them if needed.

Ok, I'm now depressed too and go to bed :))

Roger
93'3000GT TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 14:41:17 1999
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From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection
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I suppose I better get my 2hp in here.  Roger is showing knock developing
around 17psi.  He has a datalogger, so I'm sure his numbers are good.  When
John and I did testing with his 95 Stealth with the Spearco WI unit, we
installed a knock LED.  It worked as expected.  With the water turned off,
the knock light went on around 15psi.  With the water turned on, the knock
light wouldn't go on at all.  Even at around 20psi.  I trust our figures,
because I was in the car, helping with the testing.

One other key thing to remember when running over 15psi of boost with a
stock fuel system, the ECU can cause fuel cut because the air-flow
parameters fall off the map.  Basiclly this happens when the turbos spool up
fast and varies based on air temp and humidity.

In the heat of the summer I've gotten my Stealth to spike to 23psi. (not
recommended) This occured when I had the turbos spool up slowly with the
Blitz and it was hot out.  The ECU set off fuel cut at 23psi.

Now with winter almost here, my Stealth will hit fuel cut at 16psi if the
turbos spool up fast and the air temps are in the 30s F.  I've done enough
testing with my car, to feel safe saying that the fuel cut was not because
of detonation.

And Merrit, I think it is a great idea to add a Spearco unit.  It is a lot
cheaper than a big intercooler and is a good insurance policy. ;)

Here is the mods on my car:
95 Stealth R/T TT, HKS air filter, HKS exhaust, test pipe, gutted pre-cats,
Blitz DSBC, 1G DSM BOV, Spearco WI, NGKs gapped at .034

Best quarter mile: 12.85 @107.4mph

Later guys,
Curt
http://www.mn3s.org

Don't forget to sign up for the Upper Midwest Gathering at:
http://www.mn3s.org/upper-midwest.html

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 15:51:02 1999
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From: "Jeff" <spydervr4@home.com>
To: "Sirius" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Clutch for non-turbo (FWD) cars for sale,  a-pillar
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:52:56 -0600
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I have a clutch for non-turbo 3000GTs and Stealths for sale.  It is an ACT
2600lb pressure plate with a street disc and includes throw out bearing.
This will fit FWD 3000GTs and Steatlhs, and all 2.0 liter turbo Talons,
Eclipses, and Lasers.  It is a very heavy duty clutch and has taken cars
into the 10's.  I have one in my Eclipse and it's GREAT...never slips, yet
is very streetable.  It DOES have increased pedal pressure but it's not bad
at all.  I would like to get $375 + shipping (brand new, never used.)
THIS WILL *NOT* FIT TURBO AWD 3000GT/STEALTHS!!!!!!

I also have an a-pillar pod for sale already attached to an a-pillar.  If
you buy this you won't have to drill your a-pillar:)  Just pop yours off and
pop mine on.  Because it's a factory a-pillar (not bought over the parts
counter), it is covered in the same material as the dash; if you buy one
over the parts counter, it's made of hard molded plastic.  The gauge pod
fits 52mm (2 1/16") gauges (I used an SPI dual illumination boost gauge in
it).  An a-pillar interior piece alone retails for 58.48 and an a-pillar pod
is about $20, so how about $45 + shipping?  (This will fit all year/model
3000GTs/Stealths except Spyders)

jeff
'95 Mitsubishi Spyder VR-4
'90 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 16:03:01 1999
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To: "Zentelis none" <zentelis@hotmail.com>, stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
From: Rick Diogo <rick@ceo-consulting.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Finally
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Good choice.....the 94 (in my opinion) is the best year for the stealth.  I
too searched and searched for a 94 until I finally found mine.  The best
attributes of the 94 are as follows:

6 speed trans
last year of the Auto (climate control-digital) A/C controls (no knobs)
17" chrome wheels that say "Dodge" - I like that!  ;)
Infinity sound system with 6 disk changer
*Not* an OBD II vehicle, allowing for less headaches when you go to add
your mods

Good luck in your search.  If I find any 94's for sale I'll shoot you a
quick email...

Regards,

Rick
94 TT Pearl Yellow
6 speed Getrag
==================================================

the At 01:59 PM 12/2/99 -0800, Zentelis none wrote:
>Finally! To make a long story short, I've finally saved enough money to buy
>a Stealth.. (yep, I like to buy cars with cash). I asked a long time ago
>(though i doubt anyone remembers), but what are some good places on the net
>to buy used cars? Autotrader's the only decent one i know of since they took
>over traderonline..any others? And, What I'm looking to buy is a '94
>TT...what are some good places to look for upgrades? Eventually, I'm
>planning on doing the whole 9 yards in upgrades. Any help would be great.
>Thanks!
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 16:29:28 1999
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From: "Darcy Gunnlaugson" <wce@telus.net>
To: "Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Knock sensor
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 16:27:37 -0800
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Curt;

You wrote:

snip

John and I did testing with his 95 Stealth with the Spearco WI unit, we
installed a knock LED.  It worked as expected.  With the water turned off,
the knock light went on around 15psi.  With the water turned on, the knock
light wouldn't go on at all.  Even at around 20psi.  I trust our figures,
because I was in the car, helping with the testing.

snip

How did you wire this LED in?? Sounds like a nice safety feature.

(Also for the record, and I am surprised no one corrected it, the exhaust
cuts automatically  from tour to sport mode at 3500rpm and not 2500rpm as I
posted in an earlier thread.)


Best

Darc


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 16:46:41 1999
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From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Organization: General Atomics - Fusion Group
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection
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> Ok, I'm now depressed too and go to bed :))

Ha, LOL :).

> But this IS mid-life crisis, LOL. Why the heck do you want to upgrade your
> 91 with the OBDII stuff ?? Makes no sense to me at all ??? The rest is cool

All I really want is an inexpensive Datalogger.  They are $300 for OBDII.  Whats
wrong with OBDII?  There is only an extra set of O2 sensors to worry about when
you gut precats and that can be taken care of with those dummy resistor O2
replacements.  Is there something else I'm forgetting?  I'd settle for a '94 or
pre-ODBII '95 if I could get a reasonably priced datalogger instead of the one
that Jeff (last name ?) has that costs $2200.

I guess I'm really disappointed because I thought water injection was the
"miracle product" that would allow boost much higher than 15 psi.  According to
Curt & John's knock LED measurements it does (we need info/measurements on how
well the knock LED really works though). 

Perhaps I should have just asked the following questions:
Given the following upgrades of K&N air filter, electronic boost controller, ERL
water injection system, Supra fuel pump, Split-Second ARC & MAF system, 720 cc
injectors, 15G turbos, downpipe, gutted pre-cats, high flow main cat, forged
pistons, high compression rings, upgraded rods, some ignition upgrades (whenever
they are discovered)
1)  What is the max boost I can run on 92 octane fuel without knock?
2)  What is the max boost I can run on 101 octane unleaded race fuel without
knock?
3)  What is the approximate HP achieved at these max boost levels?

I think I could be really happy with 550 or so daily driver HP with no knock :)

Regards,
Ken "just mid-life crisis dreaming" Middaugh
--
I'm surprised you stopped me officer, Dunkin Donuts has a 3 for 1 special!

Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 17:16:48 1999
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>
> I suppose I better get my 2hp in here.  Roger is showing knock developing
> around 17psi.  He has a datalogger, so I'm sure his numbers are good.  When
> John and I did testing with his 95 Stealth with the Spearco WI unit, we
> installed a knock LED.  It worked as expected.  With the water turned off,
> the knock light went on around 15psi.  With the water turned on, the knock
> light wouldn't go on at all.  Even at around 20psi.  I trust our figures,
> because I was in the car, helping with the testing.

Can you describe the knock LED, what is it, how is it hooked up, what does it
measure (voltage?).   Maybe someone with a datalogger can compare the logger's
knock count with the knock LED to give us an idea of how well it works.


--
I'm surprised you stopped me officer, Dunkin Donuts has a 3 for 1 special!

Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 17:36:56 1999
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From: "Jeff" <spydervr4@home.com>
To: "Sirius" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <004f01bf3c84$e5a35720$88c10118@home.com> <004801bf3cb1$f2b688b0$2b8a83d8@peoplesoft.com> <3846AF03.51D445BC@gat.com> <00a501bf3cfc$6caf0da0$0fe2e6c2@rg> <3846DA0D.46BF3033@gat.com> <017201bf3d13$d2964680$0fe2e6c2@rg> <384712EB.F4E108E2@gat.com>
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Middaugh" <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
To: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
Cc: "Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>; "Rick Brown - work"
<RBrown@freewayinsurance.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection


> All I really want is an inexpensive Datalogger.  They are $300 for OBDII.
Whats
> wrong with OBDII?  There is only an extra set of O2 sensors to worry about
when
> you gut precats and that can be taken care of with those dummy resistor O2
> replacements.  Is there something else I'm forgetting?  I'd settle for a
'94 or
> pre-ODBII '95 if I could get a reasonably priced datalogger instead of the
one
> that Jeff (last name ?) has that costs $2200.

Wong :)  Jeff Wong...heh...  I was the one from the '98 DSM shootout who
blew up alongside Barry King and had to do the clutch swap in the parking
lot of the hotel:)  The Snap On datalogger is actually not as good as the
TMO in my opinion.  It's probably better for troubleshooting, but not nearly
as good for tuning.  It has a tiny numeric display that only supports DRB
functions, but was the one of the few things I could find that could monitor
timing advance.  Unfortunately as it stands, mine doesn't even work on my
car because I don't have the right adapter cables (bought mine used.)  Also
that $2200 doesn't include the datalogger software or PC interface cable.

> I guess I'm really disappointed because I thought water injection was the
> "miracle product" that would allow boost much higher than 15 psi.
According to
> Curt & John's knock LED measurements it does (we need info/measurements on
how
> well the knock LED really works though).

The knock LED, if I am not incorrect works the same way that it does on the
DSM cars (Talons/Eclipses/Lasers) and I see no reason why it shouldn't.  It
isn't actually a knock LED--it's a boost solenoid LED.  What it does is
monitor when the boost solenoid shuts off.  This is useful because the boost
solenoid will only shut off for a certain number of reasons:

1) if the air flow measured passes a certain point (of which I have no idea)
2) if the knock sensor detects knock above a certain point
3) certain error codes will turn the solenoid off too

#3 really isn't relevent to our discussion because we assume you have a
working car.  #1 and #2 however, are very relevent.  From the factory, the
cars run very rich, for safety reasons.  Unfortunately this means that they
will set off the BS LED (Boost Solenoid LED) before there's actually knock.
If you use an AFC or VPC or whatever to lean your car out a little you can
take care of this "false knock."  Because you are required to lean your car
out in order to make this tuning technique work, you'll probably need bigger
fuel injectors.  The reason that leaning out with an AFC/VPC works is
because both play around with the MAS signal in order to control fuel.  To
lean out they tell the ECU that there's less air flowing; to richen up they
tell the ECU there's more flowing.  I was able to run 18psi on pump gas in
my Eclipse with zero knock (as determined by both the TMO datalogger and BS
LED) by dumping fuel in (AFC with 550cc injectors.)  I didn't hit fuel cut
or trigger the knock LED because my AFC knobs were still on the left (lean.)
So, here's what you need, short of a TECII or Motec (I hate giving away
secrets!):

fuel controller (to lean out the MAS signal)
big fuel injectors (to compensate for the leaning out of the AFC)
good intercooling (to reduce cylinder temperatures, and therefore reduce
knock)

The fuel injectors need to be big enough to put you in the ballpark for how
much fuel you need.  You can use the fuel controller to fine tune it (as
long as it's on the lean side.)  If you ever have to richen up the mixture
with the fuel controller you need bigger fuel injectors or if you're only a
little bit off an adjustable fuel pressure regulator.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying that all the ranges need to be leaned.
If you need to richen up one particular RPM range to give you the correct
fuel curve, then by all means do so because the goal is to keep the BS LED
from coming on because of too much air flow and richening up one range won't
necessarily trigger it.  It's really something you have to experiment with.
IMO the BS LED is USELESS if you have no fuel control or you're using your
fuel control to richen up.

> 1)  What is the max boost I can run on 92 octane fuel without knock?
> 2)  What is the max boost I can run on 101 octane unleaded race fuel
without
> knock?
> 3)  What is the approximate HP achieved at these max boost levels?

Unfortunately this all depends on each individual car.  Too many variables
exist, like build quality, EXACT modifications, weather, compression, etc.
You'll just have to find out yourself:)

jeff
'95 Mitsubishi Spyder VR-4
'90 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 18:00:16 1999
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Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 20:56:38 -0500
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
From: Rick Diogo <rick@ceo-consulting.com>
Subject: Team3S: Chrysler DRB II scan tool for sale
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I have decided to sell my DRB II scan tool.  It comes complete with the
Mitsubishi adapter and the Jeep/Eagle adapter.  It comes with the yellow
"Super cartridge".  It scans all models from 83 to 93. (and some 94 models)

This scanner is $2,800 dealer cost. I will let mine go for $1,500.  It is
basically brand new.  Comes with all the different cables to do both
Chrysler and Mitsubishi.  Tells you everything from knock to o2 voltage, to
Mhz (air flow meter), to air charge temperature, injector duty cycle,
wastegate duty cycle, purge operation, fault codes, suspension (sport vs
tour) exhaust mode (sport vs tour), odometer mileage check (burned into the
Eprom-Chrysler only), and about twenty other things.  As for the 3/s cars,
it will work on 91-93 TT and non turbo models (both VR-4 and Stealth)
Eclipse/Laser/Talon up to 94.

First come first serve. Serious inquiries only please.

Regards,

Rick


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 18:32:59 1999
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Reply-To: <beking@home.com>
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: "Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Knock sensor
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 19:34:34 -0700
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Just a note about the "knock LED" modification.

It does NOT detect knock.  What it does is detect the ECU's attempt to open
the waste gates to dump boost.

By the time the ECU is doing this the engine is operating at maximum
ignition retard.  Translation, when that light comes on and the stock boost
control system has been bypassed (any boost controller) there are no safety
measures.

I did this very simple modification and took it out.  It is a very loose
indication at best and the very bad thing about it is that it can be
misused.  That is, if you don't see the LED then there must not be knock.
This is simply NOT the case.

So, if you install it, use it as a sign that you have **exceeded** (not
approached or encroached upon) the maximum knock counts the ECU will
tolerate.  It cannot be used to reliably indicate the presence of excessive
knock.  Excessive knock is ALREADY happening well before the LED comes on.

Roger's measurements indicate this.

On the topic of detonation and knock, this is a normal occurence in any
internal combustion engine.  Normally aspirated engines will (or rather can)
benefit from anti-knock and intake charge cooling devices too, it is just
that the benefits will usually be over a narrowing operating spectrum and
offer a less dramatic icrease in power in the absence of other work (like
increased flow, increased compression and general increased engine
efficiency).


Barry


> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> Curt;
>
>  You wrote:
>
> snip
>
> John and I did testing with his 95 Stealth with the Spearco WI unit, we
> installed a knock LED.  It worked as expected.  With the water turned off,
> the knock light went on around 15psi.  With the water turned on, the knock
> light wouldn't go on at all.  Even at around 20psi.  I trust our figures,
> because I was in the car, helping with the testing.
>
> snip
>
> How did you wire this LED in?? Sounds like a nice safety feature.
>
> (Also for the record, and I am surprised no one corrected it, the exhaust
> cuts automatically  from tour to sport mode at 3500rpm and not
> 2500rpm as I
> posted in an earlier thread.)
>
>
> Best
>
> Darc

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 18:42:17 1999
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References: <242EA98B2B7DD311985A0090277AED510F0DAF@CLEARCREEK.corp.netapp.com> <004901bf3cb1$f5864a80$2b8a83d8@peoplesoft.com>
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I wasn't going to use larger pipesfor my design, as I saw the stock pipe
and the 90 degree "intrusion" of the rear bank into the exhaust flow,
and my "NA downpipe" is merely going to smooth this out. It will collect
and merge into the converter, like the TT downpipes. I am not expecting
a huge gain here. I'm just doing as many bolt-on mods as I can to my
motor before I have to result to the fun stuff(boring/stroker kit, head
porting) which will require engine teardown.
I have a question for any NA OBD-II car owner out there. Can you look at
your exhaust, and tell me how many O2 housings you have in front of the
converter. My 93 only has one, and I'm hoping the OBD-II cars don't have
more in front of the cat so that the downpipe I'm having made will be
universal for all NA engines. Thanks!

Matt
3/Si #311
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 21:30:01 1999
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From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Knock sensor
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 23:29:37 CST
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Well, John's first attempt ended up killing his knock sensor after a few
months.  The new way is the same way the 2G DSM does it.  I'll leave it to
the detectives out there to search http://www.dsm.org for the installation.

later,
Curt
Sign up for the Upper Midwest Gathering at:
http://www.mn3s.org/upper-midwest.html


>From: "Darcy Gunnlaugson" <wce@telus.net>
>To: "Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Subject: Team3S: Knock sensor
>Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 16:27:37 -0800
>
>Curt;
>snip
>
>How did you wire this LED in?? Sounds like a nice safety feature.
>
>
>
>Best
>
>Darc

______________________________________________________
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 21:46:42 1999
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From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection (semi-long)
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 23:46:19 CST
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I agree with everything you say except for the statement below.  The BS LED
will blink slowly in the low RPMs but if it turns solid in the upper RPMs
then you know the ECU is sending a signal to the boost solinoid because too
much knock is present and the timing is getting retarded. And therefore the
ECU is trying to adjust boost.

This is vital if you have water injection with a stock fuel system.  It will
tell you if the water is working.

The ECU is constantly sending signals to your boost solinoid.  If you ever
run your car hard on the highway and come to a stoplight and idle, listen
carefully to the middle part of your firewall area.  You'll probably hear a
little tick-tick-tick noise.  The boost solinoid is making changes since
your now idling instead of WOT.

later,
Curt
http://www.mn3s.org


--------------------------------------
IMO the BS LED is USELESS if you have no fuel control or you're using your
fuel control to richen up.

______________________________________________________
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 21:54:35 1999
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From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Knock sensor
Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 23:54:09 CST
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Hey Barry,

Actually the first knock LED that was in John's car did detect knock and not
ECU signals to the boost solinoid.  It was connected directly to the knock
sensor.  (Hence the reason for the knock sensor to eventually get fried)

But your right.  The LED that the DSM guys have been using will only tell
you when timing retard and possible detonation is occuring.  You don't want
that LED to light up very often, unless you like rebuilds. ;)

later,
Curt
Sign up for the Upper Midwest Gathering at:
http://www.mn3s.org/upper-midwest.html


>From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
>Reply-To: <beking@home.com>
>To: "Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Subject: RE: Team3S: Knock sensor
>Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 19:34:34 -0700
>
>Just a note about the "knock LED" modification.
>
>It does NOT detect knock.  What it does is detect the ECU's attempt to open
>the waste gates to dump boost.
>
>By the time the ECU is doing this the engine is operating at maximum
>ignition retard.  Translation, when that light comes on and the

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  2 23:14:21 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Stock rims question....
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Hi George,

Sorry George the TT rims won't fit either.

I had to buy new rims when I converted to the '94 system.

  But the stock TT rims will almost fit over Brad's BIG RED braking
system.  I modified a set of Supra TT rotors to use with Brad's system.
They have a different offset than our rotors and fit back farther toward
the engine so there is even more clearance.  But you'd have to grind
away part of the weld that holds the spoke onto the rim.  I didn't.

BTW Brad's BIG REDs are less expensive than converting to the stock '94
system.  PLUS they will repeatedly stop our heavy cars even under road
course conditions.

You can see my BIG REDS on my homepage as well as brake cooling system.

If you plan to do high performance driving you'll need to upgrade your
brakes.

Be of good cheer
John

www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538

George Kuo wrote:
>
> I was wondering if '94+ stock rotors will fit into 1st
> gen Stealth RT TT rims? I know they wont fit into 1st
> gen VR4 rims.. thanx in advance for your help!!

> http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Flats/8576/Intro.html
>
--
JCZoooM  93 TT 12.46@109Mph   Now with Porsche brakes
Email---> JCZooM@iname.com 
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 01:49:13 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Chrysler DRB II scan tool for sale
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The TMO datalogger has a DRBII simulation mode built in ... cost is $300 for OBDI systems (90-93 and some 94) ! Cable is the same for Stealth and 3k.

> This scanner is $2,800 dealer cost. I will let mine go for $1,500.  It is
> basically brand new.  Comes with all the different cables to do both
> Chrysler and Mitsubishi.

Roger
93'3000GT TT
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 01:49:19 1999
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References: <004f01bf3c84$e5a35720$88c10118@home.com> <004801bf3cb1$f2b688b0$2b8a83d8@peoplesoft.com> <3846AF03.51D445BC@gat.com> <00a501bf3cfc$6caf0da0$0fe2e6c2@rg> <3846DA0D.46BF3033@gat.com> <017201bf3d13$d2964680$0fe2e6c2@rg> <384712EB.F4E108E2@gat.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection
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> All I really want is an inexpensive Datalogger.

TMO datalogger $300 icludes everything including graphs. Although I do have a wishlist but Todd Day is not willing to add more features :(

> They are $300 for OBDII.  Whats wrong with OBDII?  There is only an extra set of O2 sensors to worry about when
> you gut precats and that can be taken care of with those dummy resistor O2 replacements.

Cost .... it simply gives you ... nothing but OBDII. And this only for getting a datalogger that is not half as good as the TMO ? We speak almost for  a year about the logger I'm using. You may check back my pages for some comparisons on the ARC/MAF kit where I included some logs.

> I guess I'm really disappointed because I thought water injection was the
> "miracle product" that would allow boost much higher than 15 psi.  According to
> Curt & John's knock LED measurements it does (we need info/measurements on how
> well the knock LED really works though).

Well, I think it was a good begin to get a simple (more ore less) solution for a knock LED. With the TMO knock is logged as the ECU sees it and this counts to me and nothing else. The knock LED will be a warning light for me in the future that tells me that there is sonething going wrong. I think a knock LED with a filter for the signal is not that good for tuning in because on a test drive there is just not enough time for us humanoids to check out everything at the same time.

> Given the following upgrades of K&N air filter, electronic boost controller, ERL
> water injection system, Supra fuel pump, Split-Second ARC & MAF system, 720 cc
> injectors, 15G turbos, downpipe, gutted pre-cats, high flow main cat, forged
> pistons, high compression rings, upgraded rods, some ignition upgrades (whenever
> they are discovered)

This is damn close to my setup I have on the car in Spring. Only the pistons and rings are causing me headache :((

> 1)  What is the max boost I can run on 92 octane fuel without knock?
> 2)  What is the max boost I can run on 101 octane unleaded race fuel without
> knock?
> 3)  What is the approximate HP achieved at these max boost levels?

1) who knows ..... (me soon)
2) I will never find out (no access to such fuel here)
3) approx 600hp

> I think I could be really happy with 550 or so daily driver HP with no knock :)

The good thing is that the ARC allows you to upgrade to 720cc at any time.

To me it was ok so far as I see that there is really an improvement (compared to many other mods). I was blocked by testing as the more water I injected the weaker the ignition got so till now we know that other cars with WI run very good and I may have to fight with the different quality of fuel ! We will see when the snow is gone ;-)

Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 01:49:32 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Knock sensor
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> Well, John's first attempt ended up killing his knock sensor after a few
> months.  The new way is the same way the 2G DSM does it.  I'll leave it to
> the detectives out there to search http://www.dsm.org for the installation.

As previously mentioned, the knock LED was hooked up with a filter that was tuned in. It is not that simple to tune such a filter and unfortunately fried the KS :(

The first way the DSM guys hock up the knock LED (boost solenoid) is more wrong than right. This because the valve alternates due to our TT system (no knock measured). Also it simply shows when the valve is closed and this is pretty early !

The second way the DSMs are working on is using a GM filter that could be directly attached to the KS. This circuit is replaceable in the GM ECUs and I for myself replaced the one in my LT1 with the one of the LT4 that are less sensitive (changed valvetrain). Unfortunately, the KS is not the same and noone has tried it out (danger of killing a KS or ECU !)

I'm having the MSD KS for $149 and it comes with a complicated analoge filter, a 10LED bargraph for showing the knock and a sensor (i.e. microphone). Unfortunately, thing is pretty large and I just don't know where to mount it.

Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 01:49:39 1999
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        <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <19991203054619.41397.qmail@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection (semi-long)
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:42:07 +0100
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> I agree with everything you say except for the statement below.  The BS LED
> will blink slowly in the low RPMs but if it turns solid in the upper RPMs
> then you know the ECU is sending a signal to the boost solinoid because too
> much knock is present and the timing is getting retarded. And therefore the
> ECU is trying to adjust boost.

Almost true. But we all know that boost is calculated from the airflow and therefore not real. Now the ECU sees a specific boost then and starts to close the BS. This is because the system simply wants to keep the boost at the stock level. Therefore it is closed long before we really hit our desired boost levels. Of course this changes when using a fuel controller !

Roger
93'3000GT TT

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 05:01:39 1999
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From: "Sam Shelat" <sshelat@erols.com>
To: "Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:47:13 -0800
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What about thermal coatings for the pistons and combustion chambers?  has
anyone tried
water wetter from Redline to help reduce engine temps?  I know these might
give only minor improvements
but every bit helps in helping eliminate detonation.  Also, how good are our
heads?  Do they introduce enough swirl and tumble to help burn the mixture?

Sam 95 VR4

-----Original Message-----
From: R.G. <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: Team3S <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Thursday, December 02, 1999 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection


>> If I have an upgraded fuel system with 720 cc injectors and dump fuel in,
>will I
>> still see knock at 17 psi with WI?  18 psi?
>
>The idea is the combination of fuel and water by using simple pump gas. I'm
>positive that high psi is possible but the turbos are way out of ther
>efficiency island :(
>
>> Is an ignition upgrade going to be the cure-all for the early knock
>problem?
>
>This is the theory as gapping down the plugs to 0.030 is getting rid of the
>problem but calls others. Therefore an increased energy level at the plugs
>is desired ! I'm working on a solution with GN coil packs but I can't say
>anything yet. Also a TechnoMotive ignition would help but this is probably
>an expensive solution.
>
>> My current mid-life crisis dream is not as ambitious as Arty's or
numerous
>> others.  I'd just like to upgrade my '91 VR4 to a '95 with ECS and OBDII,
>get an
>> OBDII datalogger for tuning, install 15G's, Split-Second system, 720cc
>> injectors, etc (BC, fuel pump, pistons & rings) (not necessarily in that
>order
>> ;)).
>
>But this IS mid-life crisis, LOL. Why the heck do you want to upgrade your
>91 with the OBDII stuff ?? Makes no sense to me at all ??? The rest is cool
>and the 15g are appropriate for the targeted power. This is pretty close to
>my setup then, although I have headers and the big GT Pro turbos ready to
go
>in.
>
>>  I was hoping to install an ERL WI and run 23 psi with no knock!  Is my
>> dream unrealistic?
>
>Well, with dumping fuel in I'm pretty sure you can run such high boost. The
>WI will make this even better and allows you to run such a high boost with
>pump gas.
>
>> Your data is showing knock starting at 17 psi with a non-lean condition.
>This
>> is very disappointing since WI is supposed to be equivalent to 140+
octane
>> fuel.  What should max boost be with 140 octane fuel?
>
>How do we know if the stock pistons/rings withstand 20 psi ? Also if one
has
>a noisy valvetrain, how will the knock sensor pick up this stuff (this is
>why it is installed on a bracket between the banks). Over the years, this
>bracket got rusty as well as the KS is probably to hard in its seat. I
speak
>of "false knock" and noone can tell us how this can be eliminated. I'll
>definitely replace the bracket when installing the new injectors.
>
>> Others have reported running 20+ psi.  Folks are upgrading to turbos
>greater
>> than 15G's.  Pete Palmara is installing the monster Greddy turbos, others
>have
>> installed GT-Pro's hybrids, etc.   What's going on here?  Are folks just
>> installing these monster turbos, running high boost, and ignoring the
>> fact/probability that they are detonating?
>
>What do they : Looking on a A/F meter (with our crap O2 sensors) and on an
>EGT gauge (what is accurate). Running the car below the danger zone of the
>EGT should indicate that there are no problems ... but noone is really
sure.
>Before I got the logger I had the car on the dyno and we cranked up boost
>until the power went down instead of up. This is where the timing got
>retarded. Now, boost had then be turned down a little for safety and this
>resulted in 1.00 bars max. Now with the datalogger it's easier to find the
>dark zone as a dyno session always resulted in $100 less in my pocket
(gulp)
>
>> Do they just not care that they knock since they only boost for 1320 feet
>?
>
>Well, knock appears regardless of track or street. The only reason knock is
>less o nthe track is the fact that the car is maybe not heated up that
much.
>
>> Is there another way to eliminate knock ?
>
>We know that a large FMIC and as smooth piping as possible results in
higher
>boost at the throttle and therefore the turbos have not to work that hard.
>Therefore the discharge temp is lower, the IC reduce it even more what
>finally results in less danger for detonation and more power.
>
>>  I'm depressed, I'm going to lunch now :)
>
>I was depressed as well until I was able to control the amount of fuel. Now
>the water injection does more positive than it did with the less fuel and I
>feel a little better although the ignition problem is not yet fixed.
>
>A sidenote : Some 3S owners also have a datalogger now but it seems they
>either don't use it or don't want to share the logs. I know that there is a
>car that has a Spearco WIS installed and I was told they run up to 20 psi
>without problems and the stock fuel system. I wanted to see a datalog to be
>able to compare to my results. But I never got a log of them :( Only Joe
and
>another guy sent me their logs for analysis and it was very interesting to
>see the difference in the VPC setup and my ARC setup with currently stock
>injectors.
>
>Guys, please note that we can learn and find new solutions only with
sharing
>data and ideas. When I do a clean-up on my page I will store all logs on my
>pages for reference. It would be nice to have a centralized DB like the DSM
>guys have (not fully completed) and I will gather them if needed.
>
>Ok, I'm now depressed too and go to bed :))
>
>Roger
>93'3000GT TT
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 05:07:52 1999
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From: "Sam Shelat" <sshelat@erols.com>
To: "team3s" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Finally
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 07:53:18 -0800
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>Good choice.....the 94 (in my opinion) is the best year for the stealth.  I
>too searched and searched for a 94 until I finally found mine.  The best
>attributes of the 94 are as follows:
>
>6 speed trans
>last year of the Auto (climate control-digital) A/C controls (no knobs)


-----so does the 95 VR4

>17" chrome wheels that say "Dodge" - I like that!  ;)

-----the 95 comes with 18" (heavy) chrome wheels

>Infinity sound system with 6 disk changer
>*Not* an OBD II vehicle, allowing for less headaches when you go to add

------the 95 and 94 have a quasi-OBDII w/o the extra 02 sensors, but have
        its not OBDII, but has the OBDII port?

other than that your info is right on.  I do not know who has a datalogger
for 94-95



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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 05:09:52 1999
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From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Knock sensor
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OK to clarify.

My first knock LED was attached to the knock sensor signal line coming into
the ECU.  The filter was essentially an electronic crossover comprised of
some high-end audio pieces a friend of mine soldered together on a board for
me (he did a damn nice job too).  :-)  What happened, I still don't know to
this day.  Bottom line the knock sensor ceased to provide a signal.  Now,
knock sensors are extremely tough little pieces, and ruining one ALMOST
always involves physical damage, not electrical.  Perhaps mine was just a
bad component to start with, but I removed our circuit none the less.  It
seemed to me that I just shouldn't be screwing around with the one component
left on the car that might save my ass.  :-)

So now I have a LED attached to the stock BCS.  It's operation is difficult
to get used to.  Thanks to Todd Day I have a little info about why it acts
the way it does.  As you start to accelerate the BCS will pulse, extremely
fast at first and then slower and slower as the rpms increase.  The ECU
pulsates the BCS to bring the boost in more smoothly (under normal driving
conditions).  Now, eventually (about 5000RPM), the ECU quits pulsating the
BCS entirely, at this point the turbos are blowing for all they are worth.
If the ECU detects knock, and it can't get rid of it by pulling the timing
back, it will then turn the BCS on steady-state, to drop pressure across the
board.  So is the indicator useful?  I belive so.  Has knock occurred
already when the light comes on solid?  Yep, and ignoring it will certainly
lead to winter project out in the garage getting intimate with the internals
of a 3 liter Mits.  The key is to respond accordingly, and immediately.  Has
mine tripped?  Yep, ran out of water.  A pretty bone head thing to do, I
know.  When it lit steady, my first thought was "What the hell?".  Over to
the side of the road I went,  proceeded to check the fuse for the water,
then found the empty resevoir.  I filled the tank, and within about 5 miles
of grandma driving the light went back to blinking.

Now as to safe boost levels with water.  I do believe one can run 17-18psi
max pressure with the 9Bs.  Keep in mind the 9Bs will only make this amount
of pressure to about 5200RPM, then start to fall.  Also keep in mind that
the motor will have 'some' knock even in stock form.  Roger could confirm
this for us by datalogging a 12psi full throttle 4th gear pull from 30mph.
You will probably see knock counts around 10.  Todd Day mentioned the car
starts pulling the timing back when the knock counts trips 26.  I had the
oppurtunity to datalog a friends car with the Spearco installed (a '92 VR4).
On the water at 17psi we saw knock counts of  6-11.  6 was the peak in 2nd
gear, 11 the peak in 3rd.  Capping off the water, and setting boost to 15psi
we saw knock counts of 18-22.  We never did see the timing get pulled back.
It was running at 52 deg advanced at the redline during both of those runs.
I am pretty sure if I was able to datalog my car I would see knock counts
around 15 when I'm running 18psi on pump gas.  I'm not going to sweat it
though, I've been doing it for almost 6 months now, without any problems.

The key to all of this is balance.  Strapping 15Gs to the car and expecting
to get 18psi at the redline without knock is not realistic.  With more
airflow one needs more fuel.  Without more fuel the combustion temps will
skyrocket, once again creating dangerous knock conditions.  Water is not a
substitue for a healthy fuel system.  In our case, it simply lets us run at
the edge of our fuel system.  

John Basol
'95 RT/TT  12.85 @ 107.3
'00 Eclipse GT  "Go ahead, put your coffee on the dash, it'll still be there
when we hit the 1320' mark."


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 05:34:37 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection / temperatures
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> What about thermal coatings for the pistons and combustion chambers ?

Forged pistons are good enough for our engines. The problem is, that thermal coated parts will not transfer heat good enough and therefore are not a wishful thing for cylinder walls as an example.

> anyone tried water wetter from Redline to help reduce engine temps?

Water wetter is a coolant (addon ?) and will keep the engine running cooler. But on our cars, this is not a problem and therefore may not help a lot if any.

>  Also, how good are our heads?  Do they introduce enough swirl and tumble to help burn the mixture?

Here you touched a good point ! I think there is improvement possible at least on the exhaust side but also on the turbulence factor for the inlets. I will probably get a set of used heads (with damaged valves) and let one do a good job on them. As you said, maybe every little helps to reduce the tendency for detonation.

Roger
93'3000GT TT
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 07:10:01 1999
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From: "Dy, Leonard" <DyL@CTT.com>
To: "3SI (E-mail)" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: hallman boost controller
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Just acquired a Hallman boost controller from a friend that had it installed
in a DSM.  The only problem is that I only have installation instructions
for the DSM application.  Obviously there a differences in the set-up, maybe
minor, but differences at that.   I believe some people have this boost
controller installed already and I was hoping someone could give me the
information I need to install it properly. 

Thanks,
Len 95 VR4
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 07:36:55 1999
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Subject: RE: Team3S: hallman boost controller
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 09:36:50 -0600
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> Just acquired a Hallman boost controller from a friend that
> had it installed in a DSM.  The only problem is that I only
> have installation instructions for the DSM application.
> Obviously there a differences in the set-up, maybe
> minor, but differences at that.   I believe some people have
> this boost controller installed already and I was hoping
> someone could give me the information I need to install it properly. 

On the Y-pipe near the throttle body is a hose and barb which feeds the stock boost control system.  Disconnect the hose and cap off the barb somehow (short piece of hose with a screw inserted in the end will work if you don't have a better way - the Hallman comes with a little cap that works).  Tee the line from the throttle body to the compressor bypass valve (CBV is behind the airbox, when looking at it from the passenger side) and put the feed end of the Hallman on the tee.  The other major hose goes to the wastegate lines, which are connected to a connector behind the motor near the top which looks like an "H".  One of the legs on the connector goes to the feed hose disconnected in the first step, two others go to the turbos' wastegate actuators and the last hose goes to the boost control solenoid on the firewall.  Disconnect the two lines from the "H" connector that go to the wastegate actuators and put a "T" on there, connecting them together and to the output end of th!
e Hallman.  If there's a little line on the Hallman near the output end, you can get a reducer piece from an auto parts shop or hardware store to connect it to the line that goes to the boost control solenoid.

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 08:20:59 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: "3SI (E-mail)" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <6C09D9B03136D31183980090276269655F7865@EXCHANGE1>
Subject: Re: Team3S: hallman boost controller
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 17:20:01 +0100
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> Disconnect the two lines from the "H" connector that go to the wastegate actuators
> and put a "T" on there, connecting them together and to the output end of the Hallman.

Do it simple and connect the disconnected line from the y-pipe to the Hallman outlet. Then remove the lower hose from the boost solenoid and cap both sides off. Do NOT LEAVE the little hoses open as described before because the one at the boost solenoid could suck in dirty are into the rear turbo.

Good luck !
Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 08:24:26 1999
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From: Matt Jannusch <MAJ@BigCharts.com>
To: "3SI (E-mail)" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: hallman boost controller
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 10:24:19 -0600
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> Do it simple and connect the disconnected line from the
> y-pipe to the Hallman outlet. Then remove the lower hose from
> the boost solenoid and cap both sides off. Do NOT LEAVE the
> little hoses open as described before because the one at the
> boost solenoid could suck in dirty are into the rear turbo.

Nope, don't do that.  The Hallman wants to see manifold pressure, not Y-pipe pressure to help keep the spoolup as rapid as possible when you get back on the gas.

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 11:16:44 1999
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To: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
From: Rick D <rick@ceo-consulting.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Chrysler DRB II scan tool for sale
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At 10:07 AM 12/3/99 +0100, R.G. wrote:
>The TMO datalogger has a DRBII simulation mode built in ... cost is $300
>for OBDI systems (90-93 and some 94) ! Cable is the same for Stealth and 3k.


Who makes this TMO datalogger?  I would be seriously surprised if the
datalogger has the same diagnostic capabilities as a Factory (Chrysler)
professional scan tool.    I have used the MUT scan tool when I wrenched
for Mitsubishi and it doesn't hold a candle to the DRB II....not even close.





> > This scanner is $2,800 dealer cost. I will let mine go for $1,500.  It is
> > basically brand new.  Comes with all the different cables to do both
> > Chrysler and Mitsubishi.
>
>Roger
>93'3000GT TT
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 11:42:25 1999
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From: "Kevin Fanciulli" <nebula9@home.com>
To: "Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>,
        "Starnet Mailing List" <stealth@starnet.net>
Subject: Team3S: Rear wheel spins, front doesn't budge -- AWD???
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 12:46:50 -0700
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Hi everyone.  I've got a quick question regarding the AWD of the TT's...
Having trouble trying to get up my driveway today in 3 inches of snow, I
opened my door and noticed that the rear wheel was spinning yet the front
didn't move!  I'm not an expert w/ the AWD makeup but I thought it would
always drive the front wheels... how could they NOT be driven?  It's all
connected together via hardware, right?  I can't think of any component
damage that would cause this.

I tried all different throttle positions... turbos full boost and no boost,
clutch slip and no clutch slip, etc...  The front wheel would not move.  I
did hear a bit of a 'whining' (not very high pitched) sound coming from the
engine when the rear wheels began to spin -- might be related to my
problem...?

If it matters at all, I have a limited-slip rear differential (which is
probably the only reason I was able to finally get into my garage).  My
clutch is also most likely going out, although it is not 'slipping' yet --
just hard to engage.

Any help would be appreciated!
-kevin fanciulli
'92 Stealth RT/TT
3Si #0375


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 12:17:09 1999
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Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 11:43:06 -0800 (PST)
From: joseph dorsey <ja_dorsey@yahoo.com>
Subject: Team3S: Bay Area Stealth/3KGT
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List,

First off, this list provides great info. echange.

I just spent @ $1,100 in parts and labor for
replacing:
Timing Belt/Water Pump, Drive Belts, and Spark Plugs.
Labor ran $600 (Mitsu Dealership.)  Do any of you Bay
Area residents know of any good, experienced,
independent "less expensive" Dodge/Mitsu mechanics in
our area?  Any referrals would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
jdorsey '91 stealth r/t twin


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 12:22:13 1999
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From: Matt Jannusch <MAJ@BigCharts.com>
To: Team3S <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Rear wheel spins, front doesn't budge -- AWD???
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:22:01 -0600
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> Having trouble trying to get up my driveway today in 3 inches
> of snow, I opened my door and noticed that the rear wheel was
> spinning yet the front didn't move!  I'm not an expert w/ the
> AWD makeup but I thought it would always drive the front
> wheels... how could they NOT be driven?  It's all connected
> together via hardware, right?  I can't think of any component
> damage that would cause this.

The front differential is open, meaning it isn't limited slip.  Were neither of the front wheels spinning, or possibly just the one on the side of the car you weren't watching?

It is possible that the viscous coupling in the tranny is damaged.  You could also possibly have broken spider gears in the front differential, which would cause a lack of power transfer to the front, however then I'd expect that your tranny would be broken rather quickly by the loose pieces floating around in the oil.  You probably would've heard/noticed something that major.  Easiest way to check is to put the car on a lift or on four secure jackstands and start it up and put it in gear.  With no resistance on the wheels, all four should turn.  You'll likely be able to stop one of the fronts without a whole lot of effort, but both rear wheels should spin all the time or require a fair amount of effort to change speed on one side or the other.

> I tried all different throttle positions... turbos full boost
> and no boost, clutch slip and no clutch slip, etc...  The
> front wheel would not move.  I did hear a bit of a 'whining'
> (not very high pitched) sound coming from the engine when the
> rear wheels began to spin -- might be related to my
> problem...?

Does this statement mean that you railed on it with the wheels spinning freely?  If so, the viscous coupler is probably damaged now if it wasn't already.  Read the owners manual, it specifically tells you not to do this for that reason.

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 12:47:50 1999
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From: "Kevin Fanciulli" <nebula9@home.com>
To: "Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>, <stealth@starnet.net>
Subject: Team3S: RE: Rear wheel spins, CONFIRMED - fronts don't spin.
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:52:17 -0700
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I just went out and confirmed with my brother that neither of the front
wheels move when the rear wheels are spinning...  So I guess this most
likely means the worst :(.

<looking over warranty papers to see if transmission is covered>
-kevin fanciulli
'92 Stealth RT/TT
3Si #0375

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff [mailto:spydervr4@home.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 1:16 PM
> To: stealth@starnet.net
> Subject: Re: Rear wheel spins, front doesn't budge -- AWD???
>
>
> If that is indeed true (verify by having someone else look at the
> car, while
> you do it) then you have a toasted center differential.
> Unfortunately this
> means you need a new transmission.  Before you jump to any
> conclusions, make
> sure you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.  Under normal conditions, assuming all 4
> wheels loose traction for more than about half a second, you should have
> both rear wheels spinning and one front spinning (no front LSD.)
>
> jeff
> '95 Mitsubishi Spyder VR-4
> '90 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Fanciulli" <nebula9@home.com>
> To: "Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>; "Starnet Mailing List"
> <stealth@starnet.net>
> Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 1:46 PM
> Subject: Rear wheel spins, front doesn't budge -- AWD???
>
>
> > Hi everyone.  I've got a quick question regarding the AWD of the TT's...
> > Having trouble trying to get up my driveway today in 3 inches of snow, I
> > opened my door and noticed that the rear wheel was spinning yet
> the front
> > didn't move!  I'm not an expert w/ the AWD makeup but I thought it would
> > always drive the front wheels... how could they NOT be driven?  It's all
> > connected together via hardware, right?  I can't think of any component
> > damage that would cause this.
> >
> > I tried all different throttle positions... turbos full boost and no
> boost,
> > clutch slip and no clutch slip, etc...  The front wheel would
> not move.  I
> > did hear a bit of a 'whining' (not very high pitched) sound coming from
> the
> > engine when the rear wheels began to spin -- might be related to my
> > problem...?
> >
> > If it matters at all, I have a limited-slip rear differential (which is
> > probably the only reason I was able to finally get into my garage).  My
> > clutch is also most likely going out, although it is not
> 'slipping' yet --
> > just hard to engage.
> >
> > Any help would be appreciated!
> > -kevin fanciulli
> > '92 Stealth RT/TT
> > 3Si #0375
> >
> >
>
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 13:16:51 1999
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From: "Darcy Gunnlaugson" <wce@telus.net>
To: "Kevin Fanciulli" <nebula9@home.com>,
        "Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>, <stealth@starnet.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: Rear wheel spins, CONFIRMED - fronts don't spin.
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 13:14:58 -0800
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Hi Kevin;

I think Matt has  diagnosed the viscous coupling as the likely culprit in
this case.  Has it been towed in the past?? This could  be the reason for it
now being a problem. AWD have to be trailered, never towed.

BEst

Darc
-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Fanciulli <nebula9@home.com>
To: Team3S <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>; stealth@starnet.net
<stealth@starnet.net>
Date: Friday, December 03, 1999 12:57 PM
Subject: Team3S: RE: Rear wheel spins, CONFIRMED - fronts don't spin.


>I just went out and confirmed with my brother that neither of the front
>wheels move when the rear wheels are spinning...  So I guess this most
>likely means the worst :(.
>
><looking over warranty papers to see if transmission is covered>
>-kevin fanciulli
>'92 Stealth RT/TT
>3Si #0375
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jeff [mailto:spydervr4@home.com]
>> Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 1:16 PM
>> To: stealth@starnet.net
>> Subject: Re: Rear wheel spins, front doesn't budge -- AWD???
>>
>>
>> If that is indeed true (verify by having someone else look at the
>> car, while
>> you do it) then you have a toasted center differential.
>> Unfortunately this
>> means you need a new transmission.  Before you jump to any
>> conclusions, make
>> sure you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.  Under normal conditions, assuming all 4
>> wheels loose traction for more than about half a second, you should have
>> both rear wheels spinning and one front spinning (no front LSD.)
>>
>> jeff
>> '95 Mitsubishi Spyder VR-4
>> '90 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kevin Fanciulli" <nebula9@home.com>
>> To: "Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>; "Starnet Mailing List"
>> <stealth@starnet.net>
>> Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 1:46 PM
>> Subject: Rear wheel spins, front doesn't budge -- AWD???
>>
>>
>> > Hi everyone.  I've got a quick question regarding the AWD of the
TT's...
>> > Having trouble trying to get up my driveway today in 3 inches of snow,
I
>> > opened my door and noticed that the rear wheel was spinning yet
>> the front
>> > didn't move!  I'm not an expert w/ the AWD makeup but I thought it
would
>> > always drive the front wheels... how could they NOT be driven?  It's
all
>> > connected together via hardware, right?  I can't think of any component
>> > damage that would cause this.
>> >
>> > I tried all different throttle positions... turbos full boost and no
>> boost,
>> > clutch slip and no clutch slip, etc...  The front wheel would
>> not move.  I
>> > did hear a bit of a 'whining' (not very high pitched) sound coming from
>> the
>> > engine when the rear wheels began to spin -- might be related to my
>> > problem...?
>> >
>> > If it matters at all, I have a limited-slip rear differential (which is
>> > probably the only reason I was able to finally get into my garage).  My
>> > clutch is also most likely going out, although it is not
>> 'slipping' yet --
>> > just hard to engage.
>> >
>> > Any help would be appreciated!
>> > -kevin fanciulli
>> > '92 Stealth RT/TT
>> > 3Si #0375
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 13:25:08 1999
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From: "Kevin Fanciulli" <nebula9@home.com>
To: "Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>, <stealth@starnet.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: RE: Rear wheel spins, CONFIRMED - fronts don't spin.
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 14:29:35 -0700
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This is the first I've noticed of a drive problem.  I bought the car the 2nd
of July this year from a dealership, so I have no prior knowledge of how the
car was handled.  It is in very nice shape and the 60k service was done
on-time, but I guess that doesn't account for everything :).  It just may
have been towed.....

I'm scheduled next Thursday for transmission service.  The tranny is covered
under my AutoNation extended warranty, so if all goes well it'll just be the
$50 deductible.  I'll let everyone know what the culprit is.

Thanks for your help,
-kevin fanciulli
'92 Stealth RT/TT
3Si #0375

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Darcy Gunnlaugson [mailto:wce@telus.net]
> Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 2:15 PM
> To: Kevin Fanciulli; Team3S; stealth@starnet.net
> Subject: Re: Team3S: RE: Rear wheel spins, CONFIRMED - fronts don't
> spin.
>
>
> Hi Kevin;
>
> I think Matt has  diagnosed the viscous coupling as the likely culprit in
> this case.  Has it been towed in the past?? This could  be the
> reason for it
> now being a problem. AWD have to be trailered, never towed.

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 13:32:41 1999
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Subject: Team3S: 93 3000gt rear Bumper on a 93' ES?
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Hello,

Will this work?

thanks..

Jeff
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 14:58:01 1999
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From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection (semi-long)
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Well, not entirely true.  The ECU sends signals to the BS in other
situations other than just airflow.  Read:
http://www.dsm.org/archives/1999/06/19990628.txt/30.html and the links on
that page, if you really want to learn the nuts and the bolts of our ECU to
BS situation.

later,
Curt
Sign up for the Upper Midwest Gathering at:
http://www.mn3s.org/upper-midwest.html



>Almost true. But we all know that boost is calculated from the airflow and
>therefore not real. Now the ECU sees a specific boost then and starts to
>close the BS. This is because the system simply wants to keep the boost at
>the stock level. Therefore it is closed long before we really hit our
>desired boost levels. Of course this changes when using a fuel controller !
>
>Roger
>93'3000GT TT
>

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 15:07:26 1999
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Subject: Team3S: Suggestion and question.
References: <242EA98B2B7DD311985A0090277AED510F0DAF@CLEARCREEK.corp.netapp.com> <004901bf3cb1$f5864a80$2b8a83d8@peoplesoft.com>
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Today I had my ATR high flow cat put in, and it does make a difference.
My stock cat was a bit clogged, but not too badly, and the new high flow
cat is noticeable. I suggest that all 1st get car owners have their
converters checked for possible meltdown of the matrix inside, and
possibly upgrade it to a high flow unit.
Will the EGR give a "check engine" light if it's disconnected? I don't
have any emissions to worry about, and i'm considering disconnecting it
tomorrow, and would like to know if this will throw the ECU off.

Thanks
Matt
3/Si #311
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 15:32:29 1999
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From: Matt Jannusch <MAJ@BigCharts.com>
To: Stealth List <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Suggestion and question.
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> Today I had my ATR high flow cat put in, and it does make a
> difference.
> My stock cat was a bit clogged, but not too badly, and the
> new high flow
> cat is noticeable. I suggest that all 1st get car owners have their
> converters checked for possible meltdown of the matrix inside, and
> possibly upgrade it to a high flow unit.
> Will the EGR give a "check engine" light if it's disconnected? I don't
> have any emissions to worry about, and i'm considering
> disconnecting it
> tomorrow, and would like to know if this will throw the ECU off.

If the rear cat is bad, the front ones are probably in similar or worse shape as well...

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 15:39:57 1999
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References: <242EA98B2B7DD311985A0090277AED510F0DAF@CLEARCREEK.corp.netapp.com> <004901bf3cb1$f5864a80$2b8a83d8@peoplesoft.com> <38484CB7.41AF@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Suggestion and question (EGR)
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:28:30 +0100
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> Will the EGR give a "check engine" light if it's disconnected? I don't
> have any emissions to worry about, and i'm considering disconnecting it
> tomorrow, and would like to know if this will throw the ECU off.

A better way is to block EGR off at the O2 sensor housing or at the intake
plenum. For this, simply use a thin stainless steel that you can cut with
the shape of the gasket. On my 93' I had no problems but I openend it again
for the very cold winter times (to heat up the intake)

Roger
93'3000GT TT


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 15:39:59 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection (semi-long)
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Yes, Todd and the others are very right about the DSMs and it also works
close to our cars. But our programs are slightly different and control the
BS a little different. The BS is only used for a quicker spool up and closes
above 3500 or so. Even without knock at 4500 the BS was already closed and I
think this behaviour is different to the DSMs due to the twinturbo setup
with the smaller wheels.

I'm currently altering one of the programs I have for the G-Force ECU. The
activation of the BS is totally disabled here and I just wish to know how to
give the knock signal to the BS port. But even G-Force has no idea how to do
it ... but how did they knew how to disable it ???

Roger
93'3000GT TT

> Well, not entirely true.  The ECU sends signals to the BS in other
> situations other than just airflow.  Read:
> http://www.dsm.org/archives/1999/06/19990628.txt/30.html and the links on
> that page, if you really want to learn the nuts and the bolts of our ECU
to
> BS situation.

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 16:25:32 1999
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Date:  3 Dec 99 16:25:27 PST
From: Gil Lee <gil_lee@usa.net>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: SRS light, rear hatch, 1st>2nd gear grinding
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I recently swapped batteries outta my 92 3KGTVR4 and now the SRS light is on
and will not go away.  The factory manual states that if you turn the ignition
on/off 10 times, it should clear it.  That worked in the past, but not this
time.  Does anyone have any ideas?

Also thanks for the earlier advice about the rattling noise from the back.  I
think it's the rear struts for the rear hatch, anyone know where I can get
replacements?

And one more thing, pre93 3KGT seem to be notorious for funny transmissions.
I had mine replaced once already because it would not shift easily from 1st to
2nd.  Now, the problem seems to be coming back, in fact if you're in high RPM
in 1st gear and shift to 2nd, you will often feel some resistance and hear
some grinding noises.  You have to let go and shift again at a lower speed to
engage.  I just hope it's not shredding the gears.

Anyone will similar experiences?

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 16:56:22 1999
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From: Luis Interiano <Interian@oeaa.com>
To: joseph dorsey <ja_dorsey@yahoo.com>
Cc: "Stealth-3000gt (E-mail)" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Bay Area Stealth/3KGT
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 16:57:10 -0800
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Gentlemen, I just got off the phone with my mechanic in Woodland, CA (I have
120,000 miles on my NA 3KGT) and he quoted the following:
All belts (including Timing) and Water pump $632.34, parts & labor
Crank and Cam Seals $88.00 (recommended since you are already in there),
parts& labor
spark plugs $60.00 labor only.  -maybe these can be obtained from the club
sources.

Hope this helps

Luis

-----Original Message-----
From: joseph dorsey [mailto:ja_dorsey@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, December 03, 1999 11:43 AM
To: 3SI (E-mail)
Subject: Team3S: Bay Area Stealth/3KGT


List,

First off, this list provides great info. echange.

I just spent @ $1,100 in parts and labor for
replacing:
Timing Belt/Water Pump, Drive Belts, and Spark Plugs.
Labor ran $600 (Mitsu Dealership.)  Do any of you Bay
Area residents know of any good, experienced,
independent "less expensive" Dodge/Mitsu mechanics in
our area?  Any referrals would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
jdorsey '91 stealth r/t twin


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 17:11:51 1999
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From: "Keith Redburn" <bigdaddy@tisd.net>
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Subject: Team3S: VR4 Spyder wind noise
Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 19:11:02 -0600
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I have a 95VR4 Spyder that has tremendous amount of wind noise relating =
to the roof
that is really noticable at speeds above 50mph. It appears to come from =
the mating point of the operable side window and fixed rear quarter =
window!!  Any Ideas?

------=_NextPart_000_00D5_01BF3DC2.243A1800
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3616.1301"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I have a 95VR4 Spyder that has tremendous amount of =
wind noise=20
relating to the roof</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>that is really noticable at speeds above 50mph. It =
appears to=20
come from the mating point of the operable side window and fixed rear =
quarter=20
window!!&nbsp; Any Ideas?</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 17:17:53 1999
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From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: Yes, Eibachs work
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There was a question on the list recently, asking which springs are best
for an autocross car.

I can vouch for the Ground Control adjustable suspension with Eibach
coil-over springs.

As some of you may remember, back in September I went with a bunch of ROWGs
(rich old white guys) to the Marshalltown, Iowa go-kart track to run some
hot laps, and got soundly beaten by a twin turbo AWD Porsche, driven by a
ROWG, and a 348 Ferrari, driven by an ex pro racer. My time was 42.1 sec,
behind the Porsche at 41.8 and the Ferrari at 41.7. It was a nice warm day,
with a dry track. I was running my stock VR4 with Yoko 032R race tires. 

The track is 0.7 miles with 10 turns, run in 2nd gear. A 42 second lap is a
55 mph average speed. Lots of clubs use the track for autocrosses, so this
was a good test for the Eibachs under autocrossing conditions.

Today, my son and I went back to the speedway, all by ourselves. It was
cold and the track was damp, with some puddles -- one in particular in a
braking zone. I ran the car exactly the same as in September: race tires
and stock brakes, but with the Ground Control kit and Eibachs installed.
Today, my best time was 41.53, so it looks like the Eibachs are good for a
half-second a lap under less than wonderful conditions.  In an autocross, a
half-second is an eternity, and often the difference between 1st and 10th.

We only had an hour or so before it got dark, so I did not have a chance to
experiment with tire pressures. I suspect there may be some more benefit to
be had through suitable adjustments.

It also means a certain 348 Ferrari and a certain twin turbo Porsche are
going to be very surprised next spring, when all the ROWGs go out to play
again and a little black VR4 puts them all away.

Boost controller next!

Rich/old poop/94 VR4/handles like a big go kart!.

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 17:36:24 1999
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Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 17:36:35 -0800
From: Fred Hamilton <fred@yonkitime.com>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: VR4 Spyder wind noise
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> Keith Redburn wrote:
> I have a 95VR4 Spyder that has tremendous amount of wind noise
> relating to the roof
> that is really noticable at speeds above 50mph. It appears to come
> from the mating point of the operable side window and fixed rear
> quarter window!!  Any Ideas?

I've got the same car with the same problem.  From what I've heard it's
a design flaw.  When the roof is retracted, the rubber seals on the
quarter windows are pressed up against something in the trunk and they
eventually (pretty quickly, actually) get permanently bent until they
don't seal very well and you get your wind noise.

A few months ago, right before my 3 year warranty ran out (it's a 95 but
wasn't sold until August 96 for some reason!), I had my dealer replace
both seals.  The car got a lot quieter, but still not as quiet as I
think it could and should have been.

Has anyone found any solutions they're happy with?  I positively HATE my
dealer, and since it's out of warranty I don't want to pay them to have
them do a crappy job.  So I'm thinking about finding a local automotive
glass shop that can work with me on making it seal better and/or
replacing the seals.

-Fred
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 20:58:38 1999
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From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection (not-so-long)
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 22:58:15 CST
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Hey Roger,

I have a feeling our ECU to BCS signals are very similar to the 2G DSM. 
John's LED that is intercepting the ECU signal behaves EXACTLY the same as
the 2G DSM LED.  Same blinking light in roughly the same RPM range and it
goes solid when the timing get retarded.

I'd trust Todd Day and what I've personally seen over what G-force tells us.
  I wonder if G-force can even spell "3000GT."  hehe.  :)

later,
Curt
http://www.mn3s.org



>From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
>To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Subject: Re: Team3S: Water Injection (semi-long)
>Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 00:38:27 +0100
>
>Yes, Todd and the others are very right about the DSMs and it also works
>close to our cars. But our programs are slightly different and control the
>BS a little different. The BS is only used for a quicker spool up and
>closes
>above 3500 or so. Even without knock at 4500 the BS was already closed and
>I
>think this behaviour is different to the DSMs due to the twinturbo setup
>with the smaller wheels.
>
>I'm currently altering one of the programs I have for the G-Force ECU. The
>activation of the BS is totally disabled here and I just wish to know how
>to
>give the knock signal to the BS port. But even G-Force has no idea how to
>do
>it ... but how did they knew how to disable it ???
>
>Roger
>93'3000GT TT
>
> > Well, not entirely true.  The ECU sends signals to the BS in other
> > situations other than just airflow.  Read:
> > http://www.dsm.org/archives/1999/06/19990628.txt/30.html and the links
>on
> > that page, if you really want to learn the nuts and the bolts of our ECU
>to
> > BS situation.
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec  3 22:53:45 1999
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From: "B Collett" <hcollett@ihug.co.nz>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: VPC and GCC
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:56:11 +1300
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I have just scored, VERY CHEAP a VPC and GCC, I have seen alot of people
using them on there cars and would like any information on the setup and
using them.

Thanks

Henry 3000 GT VR4
15'G's
550cc Injectors
HKS EVC 4


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Dec  4 01:07:41 1999
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From: "Vineet Singh" <billi_gates@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Team3S: knock led Mod
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 03:07:44 -0600
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I too would like to know how to hook up a "knock led" to a 91-93 car.
However you MUST keep in mind, that if this knock led is installed and works
the same way as the DSM one does, it does NOT necessarily mean that you have
"KNOCK".

You might have "0" knock sum (the ECU doesn't really respond to "spikes" or
erratic minor knock frequencies, there is a filter, and a program/circuit to
detect knock at certain times of combustion. It does count knock as a "SUM"
created by the programming). When this "SUM" hits over 12-15 counts (out of
a possible 43), the ECU retards timing, and dumps fuel (bad gas
mileage/slower car).

If the "knock" led is lighting up, it could simply mean that you are flowing
more air than your ECU expects (not necessarily "bad" for your engine if you
have the associated fuel mods), and the precursor to the dreaded "fuel cut"
stage is actually the factory Boost Control Solenoid (BCS) to pulse (led
flickers) or shut completely (led stays on all the time). The BCS is there
to limit boost to about 6-7psi (as if the turbo wastegates were directly
connected to the pressure source)

The only real way to know is any one or better, a combination of these
things,

1: Air Fuel (A/F) gauge (reads off your o2 sensors)
2: Exhaust Gas Temp (EGT) gauge
3: TMO Datalogger (www.tmo.com) (91-93 3/S only)
4: A Vulcan Mind Meld with the ECU (read above :)

Vineet Singh
Manuals On CD - http://manualcd.dsm.org
Club DSM A/T - http://at.dsm.org  -  "Never Lift To Shift!"

Partial Original message:-------------------------------------------------
Actually the first knock LED that was in John's car did detect knock and not
ECU signals to the boost solinoid.  It was connected directly to the knock
sensor.  (Hence the reason for the knock sensor to eventually get fried)

But your right.  The LED that the DSM guys have been using will only tell
you when timing retard and possible detonation is occuring.  You don't want
that LED to light up very often, unless you like rebuilds. ;)

later,
Curt
-------------------------------------------------

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Dec  4 05:42:07 1999
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Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 08:41:31 EST
Subject: Re: Team3S: SRS light, rear hatch, 1st>2nd gear grinding
To: gil_lee@usa.net, stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
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In a message dated 12/3/99 7:27:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, gil_lee@usa.net
writes:

<< I recently swapped batteries outta my 92 3KGTVR4 and now the SRS light is
on
and will not go away.  The factory manual states that if you turn the
ignition
on/off 10 times, it should clear it.  That worked in the past, but not this
time.  Does anyone have any ideas?
>>

    I had this same problem when my battery slowly discharged.  If your
battery slowly discharged and reached voltage below 8 volts (I think that's
the magic number) a "permanent" fault code is set in the SRS Control Computer
which requires resetting by the dealership.  My dealer charged me $60 to turn
the darn thing off.  I wrote to Chrysler and told them I didn't think I
should have to pay that because it is a "glitch" in their computer design. 
They agreed, said it was a safety issue, and refunded my money without
question.

Joe 91 TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Dec  4 09:25:57 1999
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Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 12:18:19 -0500
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
From: Rick Diogo <rick@ceo-consulting.com>
Subject: Team3S: 550cc Injectors
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I am going to install a set of denso 550cc injectors I just purchased.
They are brand new in their packages. The only thing they did not come with
is the o-ring that fits into the intake manifold....

Anyhow, I went down to Mitsu and bought the 6 o-rings and am planning to
install the injectors today. My question is this:

Do I need to send my ECU back to G-force to have it re-programmed now that
I am installing the 550's?  At the time I sent my ECU to them I had the
stock pump and injectors.....

Also, how much is involved in installing the Cosmo fuel pump.  Is it a
direct replacement unit?  How do I go about pulling the old one out?  On
the Talons I remember I had to pull up the rear seat.  Are the 3000's the
same way?

I would like to get this stuff done today (Saturday) so if anyone is out
there that can answer these questions I would greatly appreciate it!

Rick
94 Stealth TT (Pearl Yellow)
13G's
Cartech intercoolers
AMS hard pipe kit
K&N FIPK
ATR downpipes
HKS exhaust, no cat, no front pre-cat, rear pre-cat hollow
Greddy Profec B boost controller
Apexi AFC
SPI boost gauge (yellow)
Cyberdyne AF gauge
G-Force ECU upgrade
---------------------------------------------------

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Dec  4 09:41:57 1999
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Reply-To: <beking@home.com>
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: 550cc Injectors
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:44:02 -0700
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The ECU will have to be reprogrammed especially if you do not have some
other means of fuel control.  550s with the stock program will run very rich
and in some cases too rich to be drivable.  The AFC should be enough to get
it running and may even be enough to get decent performance.  I would
probably opt for the a new program though and use the AFC for tweaking.  I
have an AFC in addition to the MASC.  It was enough to keep the car running
reasonably well but not enough to squeeze out optimal performance.

The Cosmo pump is a direct drop in replacement.  You won't have to remove
the rear seat but you will have to be careful with the main fuel line.  It
is a rather silly design.

Almost everything is accessible by removing the trunk deck.  You'll have to
detach the hose from beneath the car first, then remove the line from the
fuel pump accessible in the rear hatch area.  You may have to jack the car
up to gain enough access to the line beneath the car.  It is in the rear
passenger-side wheel well area.  Be careful with the fittings as they are
likely seized and the metal is rather soft.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
>
> I am going to install a set of denso 550cc injectors I just purchased.
> They are brand new in their packages. The only thing they did not
> come with
> is the o-ring that fits into the intake manifold....
>
> Anyhow, I went down to Mitsu and bought the 6 o-rings and am planning to
> install the injectors today. My question is this:
>
> Do I need to send my ECU back to G-force to have it re-programmed now that
> I am installing the 550's?  At the time I sent my ECU to them I had the
> stock pump and injectors.....
>
> Also, how much is involved in installing the Cosmo fuel pump.  Is it a
> direct replacement unit?  How do I go about pulling the old one out?  On
> the Talons I remember I had to pull up the rear seat.  Are the 3000's the
> same way?
>
> I would like to get this stuff done today (Saturday) so if anyone is out
> there that can answer these questions I would greatly appreciate it!
>
> Rick
> 94 Stealth TT (Pearl Yellow)
> 13G's
> Cartech intercoolers
> AMS hard pipe kit
> K&N FIPK
> ATR downpipes
> HKS exhaust, no cat, no front pre-cat, rear pre-cat hollow
> Greddy Profec B boost controller
> Apexi AFC
> SPI boost gauge (yellow)
> Cyberdyne AF gauge
> G-Force ECU upgrade

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Dec  4 10:44:24 1999
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Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 13:42:22 -0500
From: Michael Booker <mrbook@gate.net>
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CC: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: EGR on a NA engine.
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Has anybody with an NA DOHC disconnected the EGR? I'm looking in the
manual and under the hood, but I can't find the part. Also, there is a
small, black hose that is connected right before the TB and also
somewhere under the plenum. Is that it? If not, does anybody know what
that is? Thanks

Matt
Hell-bent on disconnecting the EGR!
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Dec  4 10:46:06 1999
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Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:45:34 EST
Subject: Team3S: Off Topic:  Indra's new shop and # (Please Update your Address Book)
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Hello fellow 3Si members,

     I know I've been out of the loop lately due to personal circumstances;
but I thought I should post this update for us all re: one of our vendors
that I originally introduced to our community, Indra Mahesa - formerly at
Apex R Motorsport.  Indra is NO LONGER at Apex R Motorsport due to an
issue/conflict among the owners; I believe that the shop is bad mouthing
Indra and trying to give him a bad/shady name; So if any of you need to
contact Indra directly re: any future orders or clarification of issues;
please feel free to call him at his new phone # :

602-690-3767
MAX REV motorsport; ask for Indra.

Remember: 
PLEASE DO NOT order from Apex R Motorsport or from their website
(ApexVR4.com);  In my opinion, I believe Indra should delete that website
since he worked so hard to design it and get it started in the first place.  
He dedicated 1 1/2 years to Apex R Motorsport and they decided to SHAFT him;
So let's not even bother calling them because all they'll try to do is make
Indra look bad. Totally uncalled for!!!  So I would appreciate for all of us
to continue to support Indra and his services at Max Rev Motorsport.  For
those of you who have ordered from Indra before; you KNOW he will continue to
provide us with the best prices and tech support/advice!

    I hope this message has clarified any concerns/rumors/issues re: Indra's
status.
No, I do not work for Indra!!  I'm just a satisfied customer willing to share
with all of us 3Si members!!!

Regards,

Ahmed "AL-Crazy"   -  
'92 VR4  -  Still NO BOOST!!!!  :-(     But not for long!!!!  I will update
you all soon.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Dec  4 13:34:28 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <199912041727.MAA09323@mail.ceo-web.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: 550cc Injectors
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 22:33:44 +0100
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> Do I need to send my ECU back to G-force to have it re-programmed now that
> I am installing the 550's?  At the time I sent my ECU to them I had the
> stock pump and injectors.....

Barry said it all and this are onyl my $0.02 addons :
The ECU program for a stock setup from G-Force are often a little leaner in
the lower and richer in the higher load band. Also they do lock in only one
fuel map. In your case you can adapt for the rpm with the AFC and it may
work. The negative thing is that it is rpm related and load is different in
the gears and also differs if you go up a hill or just driving on a normal
road.

Normally you may have to tell G-Force what mods you have (the pump doesn't
change anything for the program), they send you a new set of EPROMs and rip
you off $150 (this is just crazy for altering a table)

In my case, I use the G-Force for the higher limiter and changed timing and
let the ARC fuel controller do the job for the fuel side. I also used the
AFC for a little fine tuning but found it obsolute with the ARC.

> Also, how much is involved in installing the Cosmo fuel pump.

On my car the problem was that everything was seized and rusty. nothing
moved and the fuel line comming out of the assembly is very sensible and can
easily be bent (very bad !) I firstly tried and got into the danger of
braking something so I finally let my dealer doing the job and they only
charged my about $70 for doing it. No headaches for me, please !

Roger
93'3000GT TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Dec  4 14:44:31 1999
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From: "Oleg-Telia" <Oleg@telia.lv>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: question about AFC
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 00:48:49 +0200
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Just installed new AFC fuel controller (with new display). The thing I am
wondering about, is that parameter "airflow" is not changing, it is always
shown as 0%. All other parameters are OK. Is it normal or something is
wrong?
I installed the fuel controller for fuel system future upgrades, now I don't
use it - just want to be sure that it is installed properly.

Olegs,
www.3000gt.lv

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sat Dec  4 16:24:20 1999
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Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:27:49 -0800
Subject: Re: Team3S: Off Topic:  Indra's new shop and # (Please Update your Address Book)
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From: Nick Xiong <nxiong@juno.com>
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I've been out of the loop even longer...  why shouldn't we order from
Apex?  cause I've had excellent dealings w/Apex..


On Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:45:34 EST TurboDrvn@aol.com writes:
> Hello fellow 3Si members,
>
>      I know I've been out of the loop lately due to personal
> circumstances; > but I thought I should post this update for us all re:
one of our
> vendors > that I originally introduced to our community, Indra Mahesa -

> formerly at > Apex R Motorsport.  Indra is NO LONGER at Apex R
Motorsport due to
> an > issue/conflict among the owners; I believe that the shop is bad
> mouthing > Indra and trying to give him a bad/shady name; So if any of
you need
> to > contact Indra directly re: any future orders or clarification of
> issues; > please feel free to call him at his new phone # :
>
> 602-690-3767
> MAX REV motorsport; ask for Indra.
>
> Remember: 
> PLEASE DO NOT order from Apex R Motorsport or from their website
> (ApexVR4.com);  In my opinion, I believe Indra should delete that
> website
___________________________________________________________________
Why pay more to get Web access?
Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW!
Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Dec  5 00:20:58 1999
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From: "B Collett" <hcollett@ihug.co.nz>
To: "team3s" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: VPC Wiring help
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 21:23:21 +1300
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I thought about it and I already have the wiring loom for the fcon and Gcc
so I need to know exactly where I wire the VPC into the ECU.
If anyone has the VPC, it would be great if I could get a picture of the
wiring setup.

Thanks
Henry


-----Original Message-----
From: Aso8@aol.com <Aso8@aol.com>
To: hcollett@ihug.co.nz <hcollett@ihug.co.nz>
Cc: Aso8@aol.com <Aso8@aol.com>
Date: Sunday, 5 December 1999 04:25
Subject: Re: Team3S: VPC and GCC


>First, make sure the VPC has the right chip for the 550cc injectors. Then
you
>should make a plan of what you intend to do. Are you going to put in the
>Super mega flow intakes?
>What about a fuel pump upgrade and or an ECU upgrade. Where do you want to
>get to? If you're going to have to change the VPC chip (available from HKS
or
>G-Force may have some) then it can be ordered for your exact mods and
>intended use.
>Arty 91 VR-4
>
>In a message dated 12/04/1999 1:56:54 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>hcollett@ihug.co.nz writes:
>
><< Subj:     Team3S: VPC and GCC
> Date:  12/04/1999 1:56:54 AM Eastern Standard Time
> From:  hcollett@ihug.co.nz (B Collett)
> Sender:    owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> To:    stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
>
>
> I have just scored, VERY CHEAP a VPC and GCC, I have seen alot of people
> using them on there cars and would like any information on the setup and
> using them.
>
> Thanks
>
> Henry 3000 GT VR4
> 15'G's
> 550cc Injectors
> HKS EVC 4
>  >>
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Dec  5 01:33:38 1999
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: infinity stereo / which changers?
Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 02:33:33 -0700
From: Dave Monarchi <monarchd@refuge.Colorado.EDU>
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I know I ask a lot of mundane questions, but bear with me..  it's
fairly short..

can anyone verify absolutely which pioneer model changers work with our
double-din infinity systems?  I know CDX-M30 has been mentioned, but I
have seen a CDX-M40, CDX-M50, and CDX-M100..  will any "M" series
(meaning the M bus I assume) work?

maybe this would be interesting for the FAQ?  (I went through the
archives, so I hope I didn't just miss the info..)

please reply privately, and I'll be happy to provide any responses for
the FAQ if people are interested..

thanks!

Dave

95 Black 3000GT VR4
87 Mica Red GTI G60
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Dec  5 02:36:54 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <19991204.192750.-196819.0.nxiong@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Off Topic:  Indra's new shop and # (Please Update your Address Book)
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ADMIN WARNING :

This is/was correctly declarated as OFF TOPIC and was an informal post. This
was ok, but we do not want to discuss such stuff on the list and therefore
DO NOT SEND A REPLY to the whole list for this topic. If you have a question
or something to add please do this privately to the poster.

Thanks,
Roger for the admins


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Dec  5 09:09:58 1999
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Hello everybody. Mark your calenders for the beginning of March, 2000 2
weeks before the 12 hours of Sebring. There will be a 3/S gathering at
the track, and all are invited to come! HSR (Historic sportscar Racing)
will have a tour stop there, and this will be a great opportunity to
check out old race cars up close and personal. Last year, I saw Geoff
Brabham's Nissan GTP car, old NASCARS, and some truly Vintage stuff like
Mini-Coopers. The car owners are very accomodating, and will let you get
right up and look at, take pictures of, and drool over the cars. Maybe
we can learn something. The Nissan GTP car runs 3 bars of boost when
qualifying, and 2.5 when racing. How? This would be a great chande to
learn and see these older cars in action. We can also (for a few bucks
extra) take a lap on the track, and a whole group of S/3 cars in a line
would be a sight to behold! Any questions, please email me Privately!
I would love to see you guys there!

Matt
#311
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Dec  5 09:28:40 1999
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Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 12:28:06 EST
Subject: Re: Team3S: Off Topic:  Indra's new shop and # (Please Update your
Address Bo...
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In a message dated 12/4/99 6:24:22 PM Central Standard Time, nxiong@juno.com
writes:

<< I've been out of the loop even longer...  why shouldn't we order from
Apex?  cause I've had excellent dealings w/Apex..

  >>

The reason you had excellent dealings with Apex in the past is due to the
fact that Indra was the one who helped us all out; He is NO LONGER at Apex R
motorsport......he is at an new shop called MAX REV.  602-690-3767.

Nick......I know you have a Supra TT as well.......I just want you to know
that all my Supra TT friends are on the same page as I am......they are in
favor of supporting Indra and will continue to do so.

Regards,
Ahmed.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Dec  5 09:30:56 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Off Topic:  Indra's new shop and # (Please Update your
Address Bo...
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My apologies everyone......that last message should have been a private one;
I didn't mean to use up our Tech list band width........any other future
questions from other members should come privately to me.....

Ahmed.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Dec  5 13:37:15 1999
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Subject: Team3S: Knock question (from TMO list)
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------659EC29C212DE3154CDA3CE0
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Interesting information on knock (recorded sound, etc.)

Roger
93'3000GT TT
--------------659EC29C212DE3154CDA3CE0
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I was slow responding to this thread because I wanted to get
a WEB site set up with some of the data that I have collected
over the last few months on this subject. 

I have some interesting sounds recorded from the knock sensor and
some spectrum analyzer output that some of you might find
interesting.  I also have some info. on how to connect to the
knock sensor without loading it down.  Check it out:
http://home.netcom.com/~bsundahl/knock/sound/KnockSounds.htm

Don't spend too much time trying to find an oscilloscope, you
won't see much.  It's a lot like looking at any other complex
sounds on a scope: there is a lot of signal there, but nothing
distinctive.  An audio amplifier is a lot more useful.  It is
interesting just what you can hear on the knock sensor. I just
realized last week that I can hear the fuel shut off when coasting!

What I can NOT hear is knock.  At least not that corresponds
reliably with the data logger.

My original goal was to build some sort of knock meter, or even
a better knock filter for the ECU, but now I am not so sure I
can do it.

A question for Todd: is there a simple input for knock on the
microcontroller (after the filter), which could be tapped and
brought out to some sort of gage or external logger?  I would be
very interested in seeing exactly what comes out of this filter.

This is the first time that I have tried to use my WEB space, so
let me know if something does not work right.  (Do all browsers
support .PNG format these days?)

I expect this to create a lot more questions than it answers,
but at least it gives you some idea what you are getting in to.

-Bill



--------------659EC29C212DE3154CDA3CE0--

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Dec  5 16:07:00 1999
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From: "Benson \"elmagoo\" Russell" <benson@2015.com>
To: "3000GT Mailing" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: infinity stereo / which changers?
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 18:05:49 -0600
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OK, this would be some good info because I went to several high-end AV
stores, and talked with Mitsubishi about this.  I have a '95 base model with
the infinity 6 speaker system.  It has the 200 watt power amp, and the 6
disc changer.  The head unit from that year only had a cassette in the dash.
The newer models actually have a single CD, and cassette.  My goal is that I
wanted to just put a newer model head unit in there because I want the
changer, and a single-CD in dash.  Well Mitsu. said that the new head units
by themselves (as in not sold with a car) are $2000.  Basically they really
try to discourage selling head units indiviually :).  So I go to several
high-end AV shops in town to see about just getting a head unit to work with
everything else.  They said no after-market head unit will work with the 6
disc changer (even though it is a Pioneer) because the OEM ones for the
dealers use specialized connections for their head units.  They also said
that even if I got a new head unit and disc changer, they couldn't use the
power amp because of the same reason.  So basically it would cost me $1500
to get a new head unit, changer, and equivalent power amp.  So the only
thing I could keep would be the speakers.

I personally think this is ludicrous, and there's got to be a way to connect
a newer head unit to that disc changer and power amp, but I don't know where
to go for this?  Any suggestions from anybody who's had to deal with this
before?


Latuh fuh U,
Benson
benson@2015.com

"-Do you ever have second thoughts?
-When do I ever have first thoughts?"

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Sun Dec  5 21:05:57 1999
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From: "Mohler, Jeff" <jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
To: "'R.G.'" <robby@freesurf.ch>, Team3S <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Water Injection / temperatures
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 17:19:06 -0800
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:> anyone tried water wetter from Redline to help reduce engine temps?
:
:Water wetter is a coolant (addon ?) and will keep the engine
:running cooler. But on our cars, this is not a problem and
:therefore may not help a lot if any.
---

WW doesnt exactly help an overheat issue, as it does heat localization in the
cooling jackets.

WW prevents cavitation in the cooling jakcets, which causes localized hot spots
on the cylinder walls.

It basically acts as a wetting agent for heat transfer.  Because water with
antifreeze is far from a perfect heat-transfer liquid, the metal CAN create a
bubble of steam on the jacket wall itself.  This is difficult to cool quickly
and make go away, and at the same time raises the temps in that spot of the
cylinder wall greatly.

A second way to help prevent this, is a higher pressure radiator cap.
Cavitation is a result of pressure/temperature math, at a certain point water
will vaporize.

The perfect combination for coolant, is 100% distilled water.  But being that
some of us expereince SOME freezing, a bi-yearly flush using A/F in the winter
months, and a pure water with a few bottles of WW in the summer is optimal.

SWW includes agents to prevent corrosion from uses with different metals in the
system, a lubrication agent for your water pump shaft and seals, and looks like
kool-aid too!

Ive been on this procedure for about 4 years on my Supra, and Im consistently
about 20Hp and 30Lbs of torque above where I "should" be on the MOD levels Im
at.
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Dec  6 01:14:06 1999
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From: "Oleg-Telia" <Oleg@telia.lv>
To: "3000GT Mailing" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <004a01bf3f7d$a75b3ea0$10c9c9c9@benson>
Subject: Re: Team3S: infinity stereo / which changers?
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:18:26 +0200
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The new Kenwood DPX-510 is the best for 3kgt, it have a single CD, and
cassette. But it doesn't work with stock changer and amp.
Also, you must to replace all infinity speakers, because you couldn't use
the new ampl with old speakers sistem (not "speakers", but really "speakers
sistem").

Oleg, 3si #0441,
www.3000gt.lv

> OK, this would be some good info because I went to several high-end AV
> stores, and talked with Mitsubishi about this.  I have a '95 base model
with
> the infinity 6 speaker system.  It has the 200 watt power amp, and the 6
> disc changer.  The head unit from that year only had a cassette in the
dash.
> The newer models actually have a single CD, and cassette.  My goal is that
I
> wanted to just put a newer model head unit in there because I want the
> changer, and a single-CD in dash.  Well Mitsu. said that the new head
units
> by themselves (as in not sold with a car) are $2000.  Basically they
really
> try to discourage selling head units indiviually :).  So I go to several
> high-end AV shops in town to see about just getting a head unit to work
with
> everything else.  They said no after-market head unit will work with the 6
> disc changer (even though it is a Pioneer) because the OEM ones for the
> dealers use specialized connections for their head units.  They also said
> that even if I got a new head unit and disc changer, they couldn't use the
> power amp because of the same reason.  So basically it would cost me $1500
> to get a new head unit, changer, and equivalent power amp.  So the only
> thing I could keep would be the speakers.
>
> I personally think this is ludicrous, and there's got to be a way to
connect
> a newer head unit to that disc changer and power amp, but I don't know
where
> to go for this?  Any suggestions from anybody who's had to deal with this
> before?
>
>
> Latuh fuh U,
> Benson
> benson@2015.com
>
> "-Do you ever have second thoughts?
> -When do I ever have first thoughts?"
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Dec  6 09:20:57 1999
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Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 09:20:53 -0800
From: "Dr. John A. Tabler" <jtabler@summitmicro.com>
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Subject: Team3S: 3000GT + bike rack = ugly?
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Hi All,
Does anyone have a suggestion about a bike rack that will not ruin the
appearance of my car?
I am considering an Evolution 9000, which uses a 1-1/4 hitch as the
point of support.
If you have installed a small hitch like this on a 3000GT, I would be
interested to know if you feel it looks O.K.
Thanks,
JAT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Dec  6 09:37:12 1999
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Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:36:46 EST
Subject: Team3S: Dependable car?
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1st post. 91black RTT/T. 47000 miles. Ive been reading the posts for a couple
of weeks and enjoyed gleaning what info i can understand (which is very
little-not too mechanically inclined).
I just basically have one question?  How dependable are these cars?
I don't race and about the only time I use the turbo is when passing on the
highway.
The car is in excellent condition.  I only paid $9400 for it.  I understand
it has a K&R filter,  new exhaust system,  and an aquarium bleeder valve that
increases the boost 3lbs.  ya'll are probably saying, "what's a guy like you
doing with a car like this, if you don't want to race?"  The answer is
simple.  I just love the car.  The way it looks, rides and all that power
available, --just in case.  Back to my question- If driven like a normal car
can I count on comparable dependabliity, longivity to say my camry with just
routine maintainence or is this just hopeful thinking? 
Hopeful in OKC
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Dec  6 09:43:19 1999
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From: Matt Jannusch <MAJ@BigCharts.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Dependable car?
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:43:10 -0600
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> Back to my question- If driven like a normal car
> can I count on comparable dependabliity, longivity to say my
> camry with just routine maintainence or is this just hopeful
> thinking?  Hopeful in OKC

Overall, these cars are pretty reliable.  The motors rarely have problems, but the trannies are somewhat weak.  If you don't drive it very hard it should be reliable for you.  Some of us that try to wring a bunch more performance and drive aggressively tend to go through parts more often.

As with any other car, you'll hear about the bad things much more than the good things just due to human nature (wanting to complain when things are bad).

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Dec  6 09:49:58 1999
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They are extremely dependable if you treat them right. I've had 3
mitsubishis and they have all (except for the Eclipse since I sold it cuz
it was an automatic) hit over 180,000 miles. The only thing you need to
worry about is the transmission.. Treat it VERY VERY gently.. Other than
that, you could increase the boost to 15psi, and drive it WOT all the time
and it would probably not have problems till 150,000 miles or so. Just
make sure you do your oil changes, clean the engine regularly, wash/wax
the car (so it still looks good) every other week (thats what I do.. a
wash each week, wax every other week..) and do the 60k and 120k
maintenance! :)

--Matt Wise
*NOC Admin*
(650) 429 3751

On Mon, 6 Dec 1999 Bbbrucb@aol.com wrote:

> 1st post. 91black RTT/T. 47000 miles. Ive been reading the posts for a couple
> of weeks and enjoyed gleaning what info i can understand (which is very
> little-not too mechanically inclined).
> I just basically have one question?  How dependable are these cars?
> I don't race and about the only time I use the turbo is when passing on the
> highway.
> The car is in excellent condition.  I only paid $9400 for it.  I understand
> it has a K&R filter,  new exhaust system,  and an aquarium bleeder valve that
> increases the boost 3lbs.  ya'll are probably saying, "what's a guy like you
> doing with a car like this, if you don't want to race?"  The answer is
> simple.  I just love the car.  The way it looks, rides and all that power
> available, --just in case.  Back to my question- If driven like a normal car
> can I count on comparable dependabliity, longivity to say my camry with just
> routine maintainence or is this just hopeful thinking? 
> Hopeful in OKC
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Dec  6 09:58:48 1999
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I've got a 95 3000GT base model w/ just over 50,000 miles on it. The only thing on the
car that has ever gone bad is hte air conditioning belt. All other parts that have been
replaced were wear'n'tear things that I wore'n'tore (brakes, clutch, more brakes,
tires, some more brakes). Nothing else has ever been replaced because it failed. And
the air conditioning belt hadn't even failed yet, i had it replaced cause it started
squeaking. I've been very impressed with the reliability of this car (and it's ability
to pass that Camaro Z28 that thought it was just soo fast and then .. whoops.. bend in
the road.. and Mr Straight-Line-Racer couldn't handle it... but then hte road
straightened and he passed me again.. :(    ). If I was to buy another car today, it'd
be a newer 3000GT w/ twin turbos *grin*.

--Steve "Loco3KGT" Gula

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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Does anyone have the URL for Atomic Motorsports (Jacks shop) at all?

Thanks
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Dec  6 10:08:02 1999
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From: "Mohler,Anissa" <Anissa.Mohler@netapp.com>
To: "'Bbbrucb@aol.com'" <Bbbrucb@aol.com>, stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Dependable car?
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:11:06 -0800
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If you have no interest in racing I would remove the bleeder valve. K&N filter
and aftermarket exhaust will give you plenty of power without risking boost
spikes. Make sure you do the 60,000 mile maintenance. It costs quite a bit but
its worth it. Depending on how the previous owner drove the car do not be
suprised if the tranny fails on you eventually. Hopefully you got an extended
warrantee on the car, if you don't you will probably want to get one. It cost me
$1500 for a 92 RT/TT and it saved me many thousands of dollars on a tranny
replacement alone. Aside from the tranny and expensive (and necessary if you
want to keep the car dependable) maintenance you have a wonderful and dependable
vehicle.

You will love the AWD this winter in OK! Watch the SUV's slip and slide while
you are able to travel in the ice storms :)

Enjoy!

Nissa
95VR4

|I understand it has a K&R filter,  new exhaust system,  and an aquarium
|bleeder valve that increases the boost 3lbs.  ya'll are probably saying,
"what's
|a guy like you doing with a car like this, if you don't want to race?"  The
answer is
|simple.  I just love the car.  The way it looks, rides and all
|that power available, --just in case.  Back to my question- If driven
|like a normal car can I count on comparable dependabliity, longivity to say my
|camry with just routine maintainence or is this just hopeful thinking? 
|Hopeful in OKC
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Dec  6 11:10:51 1999
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: <Bbbrucb@aol.com>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Dependable car?
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:08:37 -0800
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-----Original Message-----From: Bbbrucb@aol.com

>1st post. 91black RTT/T. 47000 miles. Ive been reading the posts
for a couple
>of weeks and enjoyed gleaning what info i can understand (which is
very
>little-not too mechanically inclined).
>I just basically have one question?  How dependable are these cars?
>I don't race and about the only time I use the turbo is when
passing on the
>highway.


Although many of the more "visible" members of Team3S regularly post
about performance and racing issues, most of us do NOT race.  We
have 545 member owners, and I would be surprised if even 20% have
ever raced.  Most of us are content to have a car that performs when
we 'ask' it to, and has tons of reserve power for passing and the
occasional stoplight contest.  From what I can gather, these cars
are VERY reliable if we don't "test the envelope" and try to push
them past their more-than-adequate design.  And I'm not suggesting
"babying" your car - on the contrary - letting your car "peek at the
red line" on a regular basis is GOOD for your car, IMO.  As has been
already mentioned, be religious about maintenance and oil changes,
and make sure that 60k service is done before, rather than after the
event.

>The car is in excellent condition.  I only paid $9400 for it.  I
understand
>it has a K&N filter,  new exhaust system,  and an aquarium bleeder
valve that
>increases the boost 3lbs.  ya'll are probably saying, "what's a guy
like you
>doing with a car like this, if you don't want to race?"  The answer
is
>simple.  I just love the car.  The way it looks, rides and all that
power
>available, --just in case.  Back to my question- If driven like a
normal car
>can I count on comparable dependabliity, longivity to say my camry
with just
>routine maintainence or is this just hopeful thinking?
>Hopeful in OKC


As above, 90% of us ARE "a guy like you"-- even the ladies on the
list (I think only 2 or 3 of the women race).  But if you do drive
it like a "normal" car, you probably have a better likelihood of
developing problems than if you "open it up" occasionally!  Keep
that engine clean by making it work once in a while.  A car designed
for performance should be "allowed" to perform...  They don't break
if used 'within' their design capabilities.  One of our (racing)
members submitted a 'tongue-in-cheek' Question/Answer to me for our
upcoming FAQ pages, and it might give you an idea of why some of the
posts may make it appear as if these cars are not reliable:

Q:>>> "Why does my TT/VR4 transmission/transfer case keep blowing
up?"
A:>>> "Because you don't know how to launch, and/or shift and/or are
trying to put well over twice the rated HP through it."

The above may explain why you got that impression.  :-)

And BTW...  What's a Camry?  :-)

Best,

Forrest


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Dec  6 11:31:58 1999
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From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
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I went to the race track in Holtville CA this past Saturday to an SCCA High
Performance Car Clinic held by the local chapter.  Had a blast.

Here is an interesting measurement that I obtained with my G-Tech Pro.  In my
'91 VR4 with Eibach ProKit springs and Firestone Firehawks SZ50 275/40/17 on
stock rims, I measured a lateral G force of .97 in instantaneous mode.  I
mounted the G-Tech as square as possible on the AC display.  This is a fairly
slow track with top speeds of 110-115 mph (in my VR4) and turns in the 40-90 mph
range.  I was curious as to what other folks have measured.

--
I'm surprised you stopped me officer, Dunkin Donuts has a 3 for 1 special!

Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Dec  6 11:46:28 1999
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Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 14:43:34 -0500
From: "J. Stephen Gula" <loco3kgt@creepingdeath.com>
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> stock rims, I measured a lateral G force of .97 in instantaneous mode.  I
> mounted the G-Tech as square as possible on the AC display. I was curious as to what
> other folks have measured.

Quite impressive. The VR-4 stock is supposed to be able to handle .94 lateral G's and
I'm sure it wouldn't be remotely difficult for a VR-4 w/ a more than just springs to
hold a full G (if a Viper can do it, a VR-4 can). Congrats on your time at the track.

--Steve "Loco3KGT" Gula

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Dec  6 11:55:55 1999
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From: "Michael Chan" <michael.chan@hcl.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: O2 Sensor Question
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:56:15 -0500
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What's the life expectancy of an O2 (Oxygen) Sensor?  I have a mechanic
telling me that a possible reason for poor gas mileage could be a worn out
sensor.  He says that they usually 'last' about 100,000km depending on your
driving habits.

If so, how many O2 sensors does a Twin Turbo Stealth have and where are
they?

Thanks,

Mike
91TT


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Dec  6 12:09:32 1999
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From: "Basol, John" <jbasol@Carlson.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: O2 Sensor Question
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:09:05 -0600
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I would guess that the actual life expectancy is little more than that, but
it is possible for them to go bad by 100K km.  If they do, it can cause poor
gas mileage (most often they do).  On a '91 there are two O2 sensors.  One
in each exhaust manifold.

John Basol
'95 RT/TT


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Chan [SMTP:michael.chan@hcl.com]
Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 1:56 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: O2 Sensor Question


What's the life expectancy of an O2 (Oxygen) Sensor?  I have a
mechanic
telling me that a possible reason for poor gas mileage could be a
worn out
sensor.  He says that they usually 'last' about 100,000km depending
on your
driving habits.

If so, how many O2 sensors does a Twin Turbo Stealth have and where
are
they?

Thanks,

Mike
91TT


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Dec  6 14:13:46 1999
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Subject: Team3S: Thanks for answers
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Just read the responses to my "dependabity" question and deeply appreciate
all the straightforward info.  Feel like it's ok to drive the car now,
anyway-whew.
Going to:
1. Remove the bleeder valve ( 300+hp should be enough to get around, since i
don't race), not presently anyway. 
2. Save about 100 a mo. for 60000 service.  (next nov-dec).  TB, Plugs, ect.
3. Synthetic fluids,  cool down the turbos.
4. Think about purchasing an extended warranty for the transmissions sake if
I get enough out of my camry.
Again, thanks for all the responses-
In the future, i'll try to posts questions that interest the majority of
members. However
the support meant alot.
Bruce in OKC
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Dec  6 14:38:59 1999
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If your car does not have a turbo timer already installed, I would suggest
that you put one in. It makes using the car a lot easier. You do not have to
spend an extra minute or three  in the car letting it cool down. Otherwise
you run the chance of damaging the bearings in the turbos.

Bob
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Dec  6 14:41:54 1999
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From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
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        "Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <384C0F28.1A8D7B0E@gat.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: lateral G's
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Ken

FWIW instantaneous G readings can be significantly higher than
steady state readings. Skid pad readings are held for quire a few
seconds. A Champ car [ new name for Indy car's ] can pull 6 G's
for short periods but sustained numbers are more likely to be in the
range of 4 to 41/2 G's [ high downforce wing configuration ].
The G-tech has a mode for measuring corning forces --- I think it
has to be sustained for several seconds.
The mode I use for checking performance improvement after an engine
mod is the peak hold, instantaneous acceleration mode. In first gear
peak acceleration is about .78 G's.

   Jim Berry




> I went to the race track in Holtville CA this past Saturday to an SCCA High
> Performance Car Clinic held by the local chapter.  Had a blast.
>
> Here is an interesting measurement that I obtained with my G-Tech Pro.  In my
> '91 VR4 with Eibach ProKit springs and Firestone Firehawks SZ50 275/40/17 on
> stock rims, I measured a lateral G force of .97 in instantaneous mode.  I
> mounted the G-Tech as square as possible on the AC display.  This is a fairly
> slow track with top speeds of 110-115 mph (in my VR4) and turns in the 40-90 mph
> range.  I was curious as to what other folks have measured.
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Dec  6 14:57:51 1999
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> If your car does not have a turbo timer already installed, I
> would suggest that you put one in. It makes using the car a
> lot easier. You do not have to spend an extra minute or three
> in the car letting it cool down. Otherwise you run the chance
> of damaging the bearings in the turbos.

Has anyone on the list actually destroyed a pair of turbos due to oil coking in the bearings?  Just wondering if this is actual truth or just something that sounds like a good idea.  Obviously it is best to cool down the turbos, but I'm just wondering how many actual failures occur.

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
15G's  :-)

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Dec  6 18:34:10 1999
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From: "Kevin Fanciulli" <nebula9@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Thanks for answers
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:38:15 -0700
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I am also wondering about the turbo cool-down theory...  After installing my
turbo timer, all my friends have asked "if cooling down the turbos is so
important, why don't they tell you to do it in the manual?"  Got me to
thinking...  IS it really that important?  Do our cars automatically cool
them down after the engine is shut off (like Syclones and Typhoons do)?
Also, wouldn't the oil just drain out of the turbos anyway -- instead of
staying in them and cooking?

-kevin fanciulli
'92 Stealth RT/TT - w/ Blitz Dual Turbo Timer
3Si #0375

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Matt Jannusch
> Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 3:58 PM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Thanks for answers
>
>
> > If your car does not have a turbo timer already installed, I
> > would suggest that you put one in. It makes using the car a
> > lot easier. You do not have to spend an extra minute or three
> > in the car letting it cool down. Otherwise you run the chance
> > of damaging the bearings in the turbos.
>
> Has anyone on the list actually destroyed a pair of turbos due to
> oil coking in the bearings?  Just wondering if this is actual
> truth or just something that sounds like a good idea.  Obviously
> it is best to cool down the turbos, but I'm just wondering how
> many actual failures occur.
>
> -Matt
> '95 3000GT Spyder VR4
> 15G's  :-)
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Dec  6 18:56:45 1999
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I just received my "new" 91stealth owners manual from daimler chrysler today
and onpage 5 there's a caution: to 'not turn off the engine immediately after
running the engine at high speeds or under a heavy load, but to allow the
engine to run at idle for approx. 60 secs. or more before stopping it. And to
fail to do this would cut offf the oil supply to the turbo and cause
overheating of the bearings.
Bruce of okc
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Dec  6 18:58:24 1999
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Reply-To: <beking@home.com>
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
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Subject: RE: Team3S: Thanks for answers
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:58:18 -0700
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I don't have an manual handy, but I am pretty sure they do tell you to let
the car idle for a minute or two after spirited driving for the specific
purpose of cooling down the turbos.

Same applies to warming it up before kicking the boost to it.

The turbos on the VR4 are oil cooled by engine oil pressure supplied by a
mechanical oil pump.  There is no oil pressure unless the engine is running.
If there is no oil pressure there is no oil moving through the unit and
therefore little or no cooling effect.  Oil will drain out for the most part
after the engine is shut off but some will stay behind.  It is this oil that
will eventually cause problems if it is allowed to sit there and bake in an
excessively hot turbo.  If it is allowed to bake it will eventually coke up
the blower.  This can lead to reduced efficency, premature failure, if not
outright failure.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Kevin
> Fanciulli
> Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 7:38 PM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Thanks for answers
>
>
> I am also wondering about the turbo cool-down theory...  After
> installing my
> turbo timer, all my friends have asked "if cooling down the turbos is so
> important, why don't they tell you to do it in the manual?"  Got me to
> thinking...  IS it really that important?  Do our cars automatically cool
> them down after the engine is shut off (like Syclones and Typhoons do)?
> Also, wouldn't the oil just drain out of the turbos anyway -- instead of
> staying in them and cooking?
>
> -kevin fanciulli
> '92 Stealth RT/TT - w/ Blitz Dual Turbo Timer
> 3Si #0375

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Dec  6 20:14:14 1999
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From: "Sam Shelat" <sshelat@erols.com>
To: "team3s" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: strange clunk sound when starting
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 22:59:36 -0800
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After installing the Stillen downpipe, I have started hearing a clunk when I
first start the car, or when putting it into reverse.  The problem is once
its on, I can not tell where or if it is striking something under the car.
It sounds like metal hitting metal.  The pipe cannot be pushed around by
hand as it is on tight.  I suspect the engine is torquing causing the pipe
to bend at the flex section and strike the transfer case.  Does anyone else
have problems with their downpipe or do I just have the luck!?  In reverse,
it sounds like its dragging on the ground, but how could it?  Could it be a
broken engine mount or is there something I messed up while installing it?

Sam 95 VR4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Dec  6 20:43:01 1999
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Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:42:24 EST
Subject: Re: Team3S: strange clunk sound when starting
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In a message dated 12/6/99 10:17:10 PM Central Standard Time,
sshelat@erols.com writes:

<< fter installing the Stillen downpipe, I have started hearing a clunk when I
first start the car, or when putting it into reverse.  The problem is once
its on, I can not tell where or if it is striking something under the car.
It sounds like metal hitting metal.  The pipe cannot be pushed around by
hand as it is on tight.  I suspect the engine is torquing causing the pipe
to bend at the flex section and strike the transfer case.  Does anyone else
have problems with their downpipe or do I just have the luck!?  In reverse,
it sounds like its dragging on the ground, but how could it?  Could it be a
broken engine mount or is there something I messed up while installing it?

Sam 95 VR4
  >>

Hi there Sam,

    I too, had that same problem with my Alamo (has flex section) DP. 
Peculiar thing; the "Clunk" sound occurred only at a certain torque level; as
if when shifting too soon into a higher gear then hitting & flooring the gas
pedal.  But NEVER did the sound occur in Reverse in my situation.  After
several attempts to diagnose the DP area and finding that everything is tight
and secure, we found nothing except for the fact that the front part of the
DP area (or possibly the gutted pre-cat housing) may have been hitting part
of the frame of the car.  After several attempts to re-postition & re-install
the DP; the attempts were unsuccessful - I still had the "clunking" noise.  I
decided to just deal with the "Clunking" noise and avoid any low rpm (higher
gear) wide open throttle situations. 
    Eventually when we removed the DP again to install my EGT gauge and place
the probe into the rear exhaust manifold, the "clunking" sound disappeared
when we finally re-installed everything........so go figure!???  I just don't
understand what happened or what we did differently when we re-installed the
DP.  So all I can recommend is for you to attempt to remove your DP again and
re-install it in a more "clearance" oriented manner.  Try to position the DP
in such a way that it has enough clearance when under torque to avoid hitting
any other parts of the car...........I hope that makes sense.

I don't think that helped much but I just wanted to share my same "clunking"
sound experience with you and everyone else........hope it was of some help,
anyway.

Talk to you soon,
Ahmed "AL-Crazy" - '92 VR4   
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Mon Dec  6 21:18:41 1999
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From: "Paul T. Golley" <ptgolley@hiwaay.net>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: More on Boost Controller Set-Up
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:17:37 -0600
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I offer this long post because of the great variance
in advice I got from members of this (and other) lists, as to how to set up
my electronic boost controller.
My controller is the APEXi Super AVC-R. (Not the
latest "big-faced" version).
All runs made in trying to set-up were at wide open throttle (WOT), starting
between 2500-3000rpm and
going to 5000-6000rpm.  This was in 3rd gear on a
6-speed. Max boost was always set at 1.0 bar. I was advised by members of
the lists to start at various numbers between .35, and .84 BADC (boost
actuator duty cycle).
At .60 BADC I got overboost to 1.25-1.27bar,
fuel cut, and ignition miss.
Set BADC to .44, got .68bar boost, no fuel cut,
no overshoot, and no missing.
Set BADC to .68, got no cut, no miss, and no overshoot, but didn't come near
1.0bar boost.
Next I kept incrementally raising BADC, and finally
reached 1.0bar at an BADC of .74 between 5000
and 6000rpm.  Great!  However the mid-range
punch (2500-4000rpm) was less than in some
earlier runs.
After a few days of ordinary driving, I noticed that
the mid-range punch came back. Guess the APEXi
was "learning!"  Maybe a week later, my datalogger (wife) was with me, and I
made a full throttle run; but the boost only reached .87bar! Hmmm- so I went
back to incrementally increasing the BADC 'til I got 1.0bar without
over-shoot, missing or fuel cut, and the BADC that achieved this was .80.  I
set up the same BADC in the "B" channel and got the same results.
So I think I'm pretty near optimum settings for my
car.   Two things still puzzle me: (1) my reading of the
lists led me to believe that stock turbos could not
achieve 1.0bar at 5000-6000rpm, and (2), why
are my OEM plugs not misfiring?  I bought a new set of plugs and gapped them
to 0.350 in expectation
of having to install them to prevent misfire at higher
boost levels, of which I have very little, if any.
I hope this info is useful to some people, maybe
even to some of the "veterans" who gave me such
disparate advice on how to "set-up" this S-AVC-R.
Best regards,
ptg

PS-
If list administrators feel I have belabored this subject
too extensively, simply say so.


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec  7 02:42:41 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: More on Boost Controller Set-Up
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>  This was in 3rd gear on a 6-speed.

Ok, just make sure the car runs on full load. On the 5 speed this is in third and above and I'm not sure about 6 speed.

> At .60 BADC I got overboost to 1.25-1.27bar, fuel cut, and ignition miss.
<snip>
> Set BADC to .68, got no cut, no miss, and no overshoot, but didn't come near 1.0bar boost.

Ahem, was the first line a typo ?? 0.6 BADC and that high overboost (and hopefully no damage) ? and 0.68 and no problem then ?

> After a few days of ordinary driving, I noticed that the mid-range punch came back.
> Guess the APEXi was "learning!"

The question is have you put it in learning mode ?

> Two things still puzzle me:
> (1) my reading of the lists led me to believe that stock turbos could not
> achieve 1.0bar at 5000-6000rpm

Depends on how much overboost you are getting and how fast it is limited. When you shift at 7000 and overboost happens at 6000 then, boost may hold to 6000 but it will not when accellerating from 2500.

> (2), why are my OEM plugs not misfiring?  I bought a new set of plugs and gapped them
> to 0.350 in expectation of having to install them to prevent misfire at higher

You are not geting misfires due to the fact you are not running more than 1 bar around 5500 - 5700 (where the misfires happens) and the plugs gapped ok.

> If list administrators feel I have belabored this subject
> too extensively, simply say so.

Nono, good info !!

Roger
93'3000GT TT

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> I am also wondering about the turbo cool-down theory...  After installing my
> turbo timer, all my friends have asked "if cooling down the turbos is so
> important, why don't they tell you to do it in the manual?"

As one already stated, this is mentioned in the manual (even on my german/french/italian one). But they do not say how long to cool it down. But in our hemisphere you have to slow down heavily before you come to the house and in my case the DualTimer shown for 90% of the cases 10 sec (minimum time) and I shut it off immediatly then. I only let it idle when it calculates a time of more than that (especially after test-runs... 1min 20sec were not seldom !)

> Got me to thinking...  IS it really that important?  Do our cars automatically cool
> them down after the engine is shut off (like Syclones and Typhoons do)?

AFAIK, the GM cars leave the fan on until the temp went down but do not circulate the oil anymore (engine not running). This is the same with the Audi Turbos but there the fan is then blowing to the turbo.

> Also, wouldn't the oil just drain out of the turbos anyway -- instead of
> staying in them and cooking?

After switching the engine off, there is still some pressure in the system and the oil doesn't drain that fast. Even more then the thin layer of oil will cook much faster and therefore I think  it is always better to feed some fresh fluid through them for some time. The only bad thing of this cooling down period is that the intake heats up like crazy due to the lack of colder air getting into the engine compartment. As an example, I got a reading of 84°F before the TB when driving to home back from a testdrive with the timer still showing 52 seconds. During the cool down phase (sitting infront the garage) the temperature rose above 125 during this time (lack of cool air sucked in). With the hood open, the result was about 3° lower (negligible)

Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec  7 09:04:28 1999
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From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'Sam Shelat'" <sshelat@erols.com>
Cc: team3s <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: strange clunk sound when starting
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:01:27 -0800
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Sam...

I had a similar experience when added my GReddy catback exhaust. I ended up
removing the left side tow hook and it went away.

When I later added the ATR downpipe (which doesn't have a flex section like
the stock downpipe), I would get a clunk when decelerating. It was
infrequent so I put up with it. When I pulled the GReddy completely and
added a Flowmaster muffler to the back end of the downpipe it got VERY loud,
slamming under either acceleration or deceleration. Clearly a result of the
engine torquing on its motor mounts (which I examined and found no failure).
Soooo, I took a sheet of gasket material and a piece of truck tire and
strapped it to the muffler. Perfectly quiet. The kluggie (technical term) is
very ugly, but I spend as little time as possible under the car.  :-)

I think the bottom line is that no aftermarket component will be as perfect
a fit as the stock component. However, we can all discover (and share)
fairly simple workarounds.

Looking forward...Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Shelat [mailto:sshelat@erols.com]
Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 11:00 PM
To: team3s
Subject: Team3S: strange clunk sound when starting

After installing the Stillen downpipe, I have started hearing a clunk when I
first start the car, or when putting it into reverse.  The problem is once
its on, I can not tell where or if it is striking something under the car.
It sounds like metal hitting metal.  The pipe cannot be pushed around by
hand as it is on tight.  I suspect the engine is torquing causing the pipe
to bend at the flex section and strike the transfer case.  Does anyone else
have problems with their downpipe or do I just have the luck!?  In reverse,
it sounds like its dragging on the ground, but how could it?  Could it be a
broken engine mount or is there something I messed up while installing it?

Sam 95 VR4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec  7 11:14:58 1999
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Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:20:29 +0100
Subject: Team3S: FrontWheelDrive: Taking off tooQuickly In 1st?
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I bought a standard transmission '94 3000gtSL and am apparently still
learning how to drive it 3000 miles later.  The tires are good.  I have
learned that for me, the best way to smoothly leave a complete stop
(without riding the clutch) is to slowly let out the hydraulic (stock)
clutch in a 2 step mode on the clutch pedal.  If time permits no gas is
necessary, otherwise a bit of gas helps for a smoother transition into
acceleration mode.  Succeeding gears are shifted at 3200-3500rpm or above
for a smooth shift.  Anyways, that was the results of an earlier post which
some of you may remember and thank you for all of the responses.  When I
don't care how rough I take off from a complete stop, however, I sometimes
give the car too much gas and the front tires slip in first gear.  I'm sure
we've all done this but lately I have noticed a chunk-chunk-chunk (maybe
3-5 times in quick succession) deep sound (for lack of a better word)
coming from the front tires which I am hoping is just the tires grabbing,
then not grabbing, then grabbing, etc. (causing something near the front
axle/tires to "slosh"???) until traction is good and the sound goes away.
I noticed a similar sound though, backing off the end of my driveway this
morning, almost like a shock bottoming out or something.  It only clunked
once obviously while backing off the slight curve from my sloping driveway.
I am wondering with only 64,000 miles if it is possible that struts and/or
shocks could be worn at this stage.   Loose CV boots?????   But could the
chunk-chunk-chunk occasional noise upon quick acceleration in 1st gear
described above really be related to shocks or struts??  Sorry if this
isn't descriptive enough or a bit vague, but I am willing to expand and
answer all questions.   Thanks in advance for any help.


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec  7 13:59:46 1999
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From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
To: "'Team3S List'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: FrontWheelDrive: Taking off tooQuickly In 1st?
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:59:39 -0800
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I'm not sure if this is completely related or not, but I've been meaning to
ask you guys about this:

In the last 6 months, I'm pretty sure the tendency of my car to wheel hop
(only in 1st gear) has gone up significantly.  It's been a gradual thing,
but I just don't remember it hopping as much this time last year.  It
doesn't help living the PNW where it's almost always wet in the winter.

What I'm seeing(when I'm taking off from a stop and trying to go fast):

Dry:
Slip the clutch a bit and ease into the throttle gradually with it
ending up almost floored by 4000RPM or so.  Sometimes looses traction on
less-than-perfect roads, but I can usually get at least close to floored.
Completely flooring it right after the clutch is out will lose traction and
get wheel hop at about 5300RPM

Wet(damp, not puddles):
Same as dry, except can't get it anywhere near floored in 1st until
6500RPM (when I'm shifting anyway).  Any sudden changes in throttle position
or getting the throttle above about 3/4 floored before 6000RPM loses
traction and I get skull-rattling wheel hop!  As soon as I notice it, I
either lay off the throttle until I get traction or just grab 2nd (depending
on what RPM I'm at).  The wheel hop is so bad that I'm pretty sure I'd break
something if I let it go for more than a few seconds.

What ever happened to just spinning the wheels?  I mean, my car *never* just
spins the wheels anymore when I lose traction (not that I try too often), it
just goes from acceleration to crazy wheel hopping!  The only significant
changes I've made in my car in the last year are wider, better tires (245
Firehawks), and a K&N (which the butt-dyno doesn't think did very much).
What's going on here?  I know I've seen FWD cars spin tires without hopping,
so is this a 3000GT thing, or is there something going out on my car?  Would
this indicate that my front struts aren't providing enough resistance to
movement and the springs are just bouncing around, causing wheel hop?  Or
something else?


Thanks!
--Erik

------                                             ----------
Erik Gross                                         DuPont, WA
'95 Pearl White 3000GT (NA, DOHC, 5-speed)          64,000 mi
Firestone Firehawk 245/50/ZR16 tires, stock wheels
Magnacor KV85 spark plug wires, NGK plugs @ 0.040"
K&N FIPK (57-1500), resonator intact
Mobil 1 10W30 Synthetic w/ OEM oil filter
***No more ticking lash adjusters!  Treated with GM EOS, BG
   44K FI cleaner. Change oil every 2000mi, filter 4000mi ***
-------------------------------------------------------------

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec  7 14:19:34 1999
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From: "Benson \"elmagoo\" Russell" <benson@2015.com>
To: "3000GT Mailing" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: FrontWheelDrive: Taking off tooQuickly In 1st?
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:19:49 -0600
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Well I know it's not just a 3000GT thing, because my 94 eclipse did the
same.  Mostly in wet weather because it was hard to spin the tires in that
(it was only a GS, non-turbo).  But when I got the 3000, helll it was easy
to spin those suckers :).  But sometimes I'll get to bouncing on a take-off
as well.


Latuh fuh U,
Benson
benson@2015.com

"-Do you ever have second thoughts?
-When do I ever have first thoughts?"

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec  7 14:26:24 1999
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From: Matt Jannusch <MAJ@BigCharts.com>
To: 3000GT Mailing <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: FrontWheelDrive: Taking off tooQuickly In 1st?
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:26:17 -0600
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> Well I know it's not just a 3000GT thing, because my 94
> eclipse did the same.  Mostly in wet weather because it was
> hard to spin the tires in that (it was only a GS, non-turbo).
> But when I got the 3000, helll it was easy to spin those
> suckers :).  But sometimes I'll get to bouncing
> on a take-off as well.

Be careful with this.  Wheel hop is a great way to snap driveshafts.  The 3/S shafts are stronger than the DSM ones (in which older shafts snap a lot during wheel hop), but when the wheels grab during hopping there are enormous forces applied to the driveshafts.

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec  7 14:46:44 1999
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Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 14:46:37 -0800
From: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>
Organization: General Atomics - Fusion Group
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To: Team3S <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>,
        Rick Brown - work <RBrown@freewayinsurance.com>
Subject: Team3S: Cracked cross-drilled rotor
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(semi-long post)

As you may recall, I attended an SCCA High Performance Car Clinic this past
Saturday.  It was the second time I have been on a track with a street car, both
times with my '91 VR4, and it was tremendous fun.  The actual track time
amounted to about a miniscule 36 minutes over 3 sessions, but it was only $60.
It was supposed to be 45 minutes of driving but session lengths were reduced due
to a track accident that required the ambulance to be gone about an hour.

While driving home through 120 miles of back roads, I noticed my brakes were
thumping and it was getting worse.  I didn't notice this on the track.  Before
the 3rd session, I checked my front pads and they appeared to be about 2/3
used.  I figured worn pads might be the culprit.  No problem I thought.  I took
2 extra sets of pads to the track so I'd just replace them in the morning.

Well, I still had adequate pad life left.  The problem turned out to be a crack
in my cross-drilled rotor.  The crack was on the outboard side of the rotor,
through a cross-drilled hole closest to the outside diameter of the rotor.  It
extended all the way to the edge of the rotor and also extended inward radially
toward the center about the same distance.  It was not a surface crack as the
crack was visible on rotor's edge to be all the way through the outboard side of
the rotor.

Allright, I've kept you in suspense long enough.  These are KVR cross-drilled
rotors and KVR semi-metallic Carbon Fiber pads.  I installed them about 9 months
ago.  They were used exclusively on the street until the 36 minutes of track
time this past Saturday.  However, I do regularly brake abruptly from 110 - 60
mph about 2-4 times a week on the way home from work.  Two weekends ago while
cleaning out the brake dust from the holes, I noticed that all holes had what
appeared to be hairline surface cracks all oriented radially from the center.

I've been very happy with the KVR pads.  They stop very well after you heat them
up.  The first one or two stops aren't so great though.  They seemed to last
well too, through 9 months and 50 miles of track time.  My buddy with a 92 VR4
installed new BBQ treated KVR pads for the same event.  His looked barely used
after the 2nd session.  Also they do dust more than stock pads.  For $63 a set,
these are great pads!

The rotors are another story though.  KVR will replace rotors within 2 months of
purchase, or will prorate them up to a year.  Most likely, the problem isn't a
KVR issue, but rather an issue of cross-drilled rotors since I've heard similar
stories about other cross-drilled rotors.  Regardless, I think I will try the
Porterfield non-cross-drilled, cryogenically treated rotors for my next set.

Regards,
Ken
--
I'm surprised you stopped me officer, Dunkin Donuts has a 3 for 1 special!

Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec  7 14:51:44 1999
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To: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>,
        Team3S <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: FrontWheelDrive: Taking off tooQuickly In 1st?
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Maybe your struts aren't damping as well as they did a year ago.  How old are
they?

--
I'm surprised you stopped me officer, Dunkin Donuts has a 3 for 1 special!

Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec  7 15:04:43 1999
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To: Ken Middaugh <Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com>,
        Team3S <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>,
        Rick Brown - work <RBrown@freewayinsurance.com>
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Cracked cross-drilled rotor
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>
>While driving home through 120 miles of back roads, I noticed my brakes were
>thumping and it was getting worse. <snip> The problem turned out to be a
crack
>in my cross-drilled rotor.  The crack was on the outboard side of the rotor,
>through a cross-drilled hole closest to the outside diameter of the rotor.
It
>extended all the way to the edge of the rotor and also extended inward
radially
>toward the center about the same distance.  <snip>  I think I will try the
>Porterfield non-cross-drilled, cryogenically treated rotors for my next set.
>
Good choice. Run stock pads on the street and Porterfield R4 pads on the
track, and it oughta work just fine for you.

Cross-drilled and slotted rotors are just for show. On our cars, they break
if you use them hard.

It would  help if you'd run some cooling air in there. You probably got
those KVR rotors up to about 1300 degrees. The Porterfield rotors will be
OK, but such high temps wear out pads quickly.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4/somebody stop me!

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From: "Mohler, Jeff" <jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
To: Team3S <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Cracked cross-drilled rotor
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:10:43 -0800
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I've been very happy with the KVR pads.  They stop very well after you heat them
up.  The first one or two stops aren't so great though.  They seemed to last
well too, through 9 months and 50 miles of track time.  My buddy with a 92 VR4
installed new BBQ treated KVR pads for the same event.  His looked barely used
after the 2nd session.  Also they do dust more than stock pads.  For $63 a set,
these are great pads!

The rotors are another story though.  KVR will replace rotors within 2 months of
purchase, or will prorate them up to a year.  Most likely, the problem isn't a
KVR issue, but rather an issue of cross-drilled rotors since I've heard similar
stories about other cross-drilled rotors.  Regardless, I think I will try the
Porterfield non-cross-drilled, cryogenically treated rotors for my next set.
---

1)  I think i'll be buying those pads!

2)  I belive, that crossdrilling creates weak spots in the rotors, as the rotor
heat cycles at different rates around the holes.  I firmly recomend slotting, as
it doesnt remove as much thermal mass, and doesnt affect how the metal
grows/shrinks.



Anyone know a place in the Bay-Area that will slot a rotor for me?
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec  7 15:09:54 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
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Subject: Team3S: Heads, Valves
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 00:09:05 +0100
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Ok, call be the lucky guy :) I'm getting an 91 motor (92'Stealth TT, US) to
part out as it had the belt slipping and damaged all the valves (at least).
I'm getting the heads for free (hehe) as I helped the guy to install a new
engine (he paid $2700 from a car who had a rollover with 15k miles) and they
are not sellable as they need some work on the valves, adjusters and maybe
more.

Questions :
- Are there any lightweight valves available. Where ? how much ?
- Cams : Any idea about hotter cams ?
- what are the stock 9b turbos with about 28k miles on them, mint condition,
worth ? The guy needs some money out of the additional costs he had but they
would not be expensive. Of course oil lines, water pump and some other parts
may be available as well but I have first to check the engine puzzle
(everything is in boxes, gulp)

Thanks for any input,
Roger
93'3000GT TT

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec  7 15:27:25 1999
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From: "Mohler, Jeff" <jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
To: Team3S <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Cracked cross-drilled rotor
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:30:42 -0800
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Cross-drilled and slotted rotors are just for show. On our cars, they break
if you use them hard.
---

Then how do you solve the gassing problem?

Im not talking OVERLY slotting a rotor btw..
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec  7 15:36:30 1999
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From: "Gross, Erik" <erik.gross@intel.com>
To: "'Team3S List'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: FrontWheelDrive: Taking off tooQuickly In 1st?
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:36:23 -0800
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matt Jannusch [mailto:MAJ@BigCharts.com]
>
> > sometimes I'll get to bouncing on a take-off as well.
>
> Be careful with this.  Wheel hop is a great way to snap
> driveshafts. 

Yeah, definitely!  I cringe every time it happens, and it is quite rare when
I'm careful (99.5% of the time).  I usually end up feathering the throttle
and "feeling" for the edge as I depress the throttle.  If I feel it start to
slip, I back off slightly.  Maybe I'm just remembering fondly, but it seems
that point where things start to slip is sooner than last year...that's what
bothers me:) 

> From: Ken Middaugh [mailto:Kenneth.Middaugh@gat.com]
>
> Maybe your struts aren't damping as well as they did a year
> ago.  How old are they?

I'm wondering the same thing...how much mileage do you typically get out of
the stock struts/shocks?  I've figured I'll just do the whole suspension
(well, struts, shocks, and springs anyway:) when the stock ones go south,
but I thought I'd get more than 65,000 miles outta them.  My thinking is
that I should be able to take the stock struts/springs off as a unit and
replace them with aftermarket ones and not have to fool around with spring
compressors and stuff (most aftermarket springs aren't compressed when not
loaded, but the stock ones are, right?)


--Erik

P.S.

The rears seem to be fine, so maybe I could put new struts/lowering
springs on the front and leave the rear stock:)  I wonder how that'd handle?
It'd almost look like an old American muscle car with a jacked-up rear end:)
That'd be a sight...for about 10 minutes, and then I'd have to shoot myself
for looking like a rice-boy-wannabe-castmember-of-Grease.

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec  7 15:39:09 1999
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From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Cracked cross-drilled rotor
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>Cross-drilled and slotted rotors are just for show. On our cars, they break
>if you use them hard.
>
>Then how do you solve the gassing problem?
>Im not talking OVERLY slotting a rotor btw..

Get air flow to them, I guess. I didn't know gassing was a problem.
Having BROKEN two slotted rotors at the hub, I'll take gassing problems any
day, whatever they are.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4/somebody stop me!
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec  7 16:10:05 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Cracked cross-drilled rotor
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Hey Rich;

When are you going to get some pics of your brake coolong system available
to those of us who're interested?? Weak links with fixes need sites to
inform :-)

Darc

snip

>Cross-drilled and slotted rotors are just for show. On our cars, they break
>if you use them hard.
>
>It would  help if you'd run some cooling air in there. You probably got
>those KVR rotors up to about 1300 degrees.

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec  7 16:23:01 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Cracked cross-drilled rotor
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> When are you going to get some pics of your brake coolong system available
> to those of us who're interested?? Weak links with fixes need sites to
> inform :-)

When will one of our list entrepeneurs begin making and selling front brake
backing plates with hose barbs welded on so one could attach cooling hoses?

--
I'm surprised you stopped me officer, Dunkin Donuts has a 3 for 1 special!

Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec  7 16:29:56 1999
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Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:29:22 EST
Subject: Team3S: What does the "J" stand for?
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I've been looking for rims recently and trying to match the dia. and width of
the stock rims. For '91 VR4 the stock rim is 17 x 8.5J - anybody know what
the "J" is for in this spec?

Thanks.
Paul Klusman
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec  7 16:34:37 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: FrontWheelDrive: Taking off tooQuickly In 1st?
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"Gross, Erik" wrote:
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Matt Jannusch [mailto:MAJ@BigCharts.com]
> >
> > > sometimes I'll get to bouncing on a take-off as well.
> >
> > Be careful with this.  Wheel hop is a great way to snap
> > driveshafts.
>

> I'm wondering the same thing...how much mileage do you typically get out of
> the stock struts/shocks?  I've figured I'll just do the whole suspension
> (well, struts, shocks, and springs anyway:) when the stock ones go south,
> but I thought I'd get more than 65,000 miles outta them.  My thinking is
> that I should be able to take the stock struts/springs off as a unit and
> replace them with aftermarket ones and not have to fool around with spring
> compressors and stuff (most aftermarket springs aren't compressed when not
> loaded, but the stock ones are, right?)

I guess between 40,000 - 80,000 miles depending on how harsh the roads and
environment are where you live.  Here in So. Cal, I replaced my struts at 80K
and could of done it earlier since they were so noisy/clunky.  I also installed
Eibach Pro springs at the same time.  The front springs are under load so you do
need a spring compressor.  I just removed the assemblies, and took them to a
tire shop.  They swapped the hardware onto the new struts & springs for $40.

--
I'm surprised you stopped me officer, Dunkin Donuts has a 3 for 1 special!

Ken Middaugh (858) 455-4510
General Atomics
San Diego
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec  7 16:44:19 1999
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From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Cracked cross-drilled rotor
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>
>When are you going to get some pics of your brake coolong system available
>to those of us who're interested?? Weak links with fixes need sites to
>inform :-)
>
I'm still fiddling with the scoops. Now that I lowered the car, my scoops
hit on every road bump. I'm trying to figure out how to build a
spring-loaded scoop that will be driven up when it hits an obstacle, then
springs back. Now, they just rip off on driveways and dips in the road. I
may remove the entire panel under the fascia and try something else.

Actually, it's a very boss scoop -- it's black, round, plastic, about 3 in.
dia., and leads to a 2x2 in. square opening. The 2.5 in. hose fits in there
very nicely, and the scoop fits right into the 4x6 openings under the
fascia. I found them in the plumbing section at Menard's for about $1.50
each.  They look mean sitting under there.  Alas, they hang down too a
little too far for my car. I have a set of white clothes dryer vents that
might work -- I'll try those next. The very best scoops were some huge 2x8
plastic gutter downspouts that I found at Payless Cashways, but they
protruded down too far, and I ripped them off in the grass at Blackhawk
Farms.

In general, my brake cooling system consists of:

1. Removed front inner fender well to promote air flow.
2. Removed backing plates from front rotors to promote air flow.
3. Scoops under front bumper (centered over 4x6 openings under fascia)
4. 2.5 in. hose from scoop to middle of the wheel (I gave up trying to fit
it into the caliper opening, because if it slips it tears the halfshaft
boot). The hose is tie-wrapped to the lower stabilizing arm.
5. Water hoses run to rotors from the windshield washer pump. I squirt
water into the center of the rotor, right where the vent holes are. I don't
spray directly on the wiped surface.  Prior to an event, I remove the line
to the windshield washer jets (at the upper right hand corner of the engine
compartment), and T it into the two hoses running to the rotors. I remove
the windshield wiper motor plug, so the wipers don't work.  Then, when I
need to cool my brakes, I give them a shot of water with the windshield
washer lever. A full reservoir lasts about 20 minutes. Seemed to work at
Road America. When the reservoir is empty, the light comes on. Handy.

If I ever stop fiddling with the brakes, I'll take a picture of them.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4/somebody stop me!
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec  7 18:52:08 1999
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From: "Michael McWilliams" <CelMike@email.msn.com>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Thanks for answers
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>
>Has anyone on the list actually destroyed a pair of turbos due to oil
coking in the bearings?  Just wondering if this is actual truth or just
something that sounds like a good idea.  Obviously it is best to cool down
the turbos, but I'm just wondering how many actual failures occur.
>
>-Matt
>'95 3000GT Spyder VR4
>15G's  :-)
>


Well, the reason I'm having my turbos rebuilt into 15Gs is because the rear
turbo was totally shot and the front one was on its way out.  The rear turbo
had lots of in/out and side to side play in the shaft and leaked oil badly.
The front one made a scraping sound when spun.

Since I've only put about 4k miles on the car since I've owned it, I don't
know if it was lack of cool-down, infrequent oil change, non-synthetic oil
or a combination of the three which did my turbos in, but I'm sure a
cool-down period can't hurt.



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec  7 20:53:33 1999
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Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:53:30 -0800 (PST)
From: George Kuo <amkreadgto@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Cracked cross-drilled rotor
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I believe cross-drilled are NOT just for show.. but
they are not intended for long hard abuse.. maybe just
a couple of weekend events (if you're lucky)..

--- "Mohler, Jeff" <jeff.mohler@netapp.com> wrote:
> Cross-drilled and slotted rotors are just for show.
> On our cars, they break
> if you use them hard.
> ---
>
> Then how do you solve the gassing problem?
>
> Im not talking OVERLY slotting a rotor btw..
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  8 02:09:31 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: Cracked cross-drilled rotor
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> I believe cross-drilled are NOT just for show.. but
> they are not intended for long hard abuse.. maybe just
> a couple of weekend events (if you're lucky)..

Guys, may I remind you that there is a german car maker that runs pretty good brakes on their cars ? Yes, Prosche uses crossdrilled rotors and I tell you the stuff holds ! But check the design as the holes are already included in the cast and are drilled out fully for finishing. this is the same with the Bremsa brakes. Even more in Europe we do have a min. distance from the edge of the disk to the first hole as well as the max diameter of the holes.

The non-expensive crossdrilled rotors got the holes after the production is done. The advantage is additional cooling as well as giving the gases a chance to go away from the pads. Furthermore, some dust will go away there as well as water does.

IMHO, get only crossdrilled ones if you are sure they will do their job well. For this I can only tell of the Porsche (MovIt), Brembo and Bremsa (both the same manufacturer in Italy) rotors.

BTW, even Baer does tell you that their crossdrilled rotors tend to brake on circle track events and they sold me the ones with only four slots for the Z28. Damn good brakes !

Roger
93'3000GT TT

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  8 06:49:34 1999
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Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 09:43:48 -0500
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To: Stealth-3000GT <stealth-3000GT@list.sirius.com>
CC: Bryan Schwieg <schwieg@ibm.net>,
        Brad Bedell BIG BRAKES <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Adventure in braking
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Hi all,

Bryan Schwieg wrote:
>
> Hello John,
> I was reading a post you wrote about Brad's big brakes and the use of stock rims. I'm looking to get his brakes, but would like to use my stock '92 stealth rims. Brad says they won't work.
---> Brad is correct, they will not work as is.

Are you saying they will if you use supra rotors? Please elaborate,
what do I have to mod? The wheels? rotors?
--->You would have to machine away some of the weld metal and part of
the spoke and part of the inner diameter of the rim.  Its safer and
easier to buy new/used rims.  I'd never try modifying a rim for safety
reasons because I run road courses.

In order to fit the Supra rotors properly, you must machine away some of
the thin pilot diameter so the rotor fits flat against the TT hub.  Its
a simple process, IF you have a BIG lathe.

If you have a lathe big enough to turn away enough stock of the rim to
provide clearance, then cutting the inner hat of the rotor will be a
piece of cake.

Good luck.

John Christian



> Thanks for your help,
> Bryan

--
JCZoooM  93 TT 12.46@109Mph   Now with Porsche brakes
Email---> JCZooM@iname.com 
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  8 21:49:16 1999
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Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 00:48:45 EST
Subject: Team3S: Vr-4 launching
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Okay guys,   95  stock VR-4.    I'm running in to some 400hp plus power
Camaros and Mustangs that are pulling on me and making me loose confidence in
my STOCK machine.  These are straght runs of course.   Any ideas on launch
techniques or is it time to UPGRADE the VR-4??  This is embarrasing.   One
way I launch is to hold at 6000 RPM and ride the clutch to fire out of the
hole. Call me stupid, but this seems to be the FASTEST launch technique. I
still get beat by a half car length.  Is this too rough on my car?  Is there
a better way?  What should I do .    Thanks       Shannon 95 VR-4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  8 22:12:26 1999
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Reply-To: <beking@home.com>
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Vr-4 launching
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 23:12:56 -0700
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You didn't mention 60' times, but riding the clutch is likely not goint to
get you what you want.

First off, an honest 400 HP in a Camaro is no slouch.  If it can hook up, it
will go pretty good.

This is hard to do, but with practice will yield as good a launch as you'll
get.  A slipping clutch is not transferring engine power to the wheels.
Also, it'll heat up and take some time before it hooks up fully.  You need
to sacrifice some wheelspin in order to get that clutch hooked up as soon as
possible.  This is hard on the car, but so is slipping the clutch, and some
might claim easier on the car overall.

Try some variation of this technique.  Somewhere between 4000 RPM and 5500
RPM is a sweet spot for your car and the current conditions where you can
practically drop the clutch, get some minimal amount of wheelspin without
the engine bogging.  The RPM will vary depending upon a number of factors,
but the principles apply.  This is where you'll likely get the best possible
launch.

Rev the car to the sweet spot (whatever it may be for your setup - just
experiment until you find it) just before the launch, maybe a few 100 RPM
above.  Hold it there.  When it is time to launch, engage the clutch as
quickly as you can lift your foot without actually sidestepping the clutch.
Apply throttle at the same time - read that as floor it.  Modulate wheelspin
carefully with the throttle if need be, but usually you can just keep it
floored.  Don't let up too early or you'll get traction before the car is
moving forward with enough momentum, and risk bogging.  Some wheelspin is
necessary for a good launch.

When it works right you'll be at the 60' mark in well under 2 seconds (1.6
is achievable without too much effort) and you'll be grabbing 2nd gear in no
time.  You can shift from 1st to 2nd just be barely letting off the throttle
ever so slightly, and tapping the clutch just enough to coax the gearbox out
of 1st and into 2nd very quickly.  The 2-3 shift takes a little more
practise to master quickly.  It is very important to execute these shifts
without letting too many RPMs drop since without RPMs you will not have
boost.  You also want to keep the engine loaded as much as possible in order
to maintain as much boost as possible at all times.

If you can pull off 1.6 60' times there are very few RWD cars that will beat
you for the first little bit anyway.  They may catch you after the 760' mark
if they have the HP, but you'll at least have spanked them hard out of the
hole, maybe even enough to make them mess up their run to the point where
they cannot beat you.

If you have not already done so, at least get some boost behind the engine.
15-17 PSI should be safe to run for short burst without other mods, and will
be enough to even up the score somewhat.

You could always try the Jeff Wong technique.  Bounce the engine off the rev
limiter and drop the clutch...not recommended but it sure is cool to see the
smoke billowing out of all four  wheelwells for 40'.  He actually had very
decent 60' times too. =)


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of
> MitsuVR41@aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 10:49 PM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Team3S: Vr-4 launching
>
>
> Okay guys,   95  stock VR-4.    I'm running in to some 400hp plus power
> Camaros and Mustangs that are pulling on me and making me loose
> confidence in
> my STOCK machine.  These are straght runs of course.   Any ideas
> on launch
> techniques or is it time to UPGRADE the VR-4??  This is
> embarrasing.   One
> way I launch is to hold at 6000 RPM and ride the clutch to fire
> out of the
> hole. Call me stupid, but this seems to be the FASTEST launch
> technique. I
> still get beat by a half car length.  Is this too rough on my
> car?  Is there
> a better way?  What should I do .    Thanks       Shannon 95 VR-4
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  8 23:35:11 1999
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Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 23:30:55 -0800
From: David Chen <neubine@ix.netcom.com>
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Hi everyone,

    Just letting everyone know I got a new Carbon Fiber hood (NOT the
GT-PRO one) a better one... Anyways I have pics before I paint it and
you guy can check it out.

David Chen
Neubine@ix.netcom.com

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec  8 23:35:29 1999
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Hi everyone,

    Just letting everyone know I got a new Carbon Fiber hood (NOT the
GT-PRO one) a better one... Anyways I have pics before I paint it and
you guy can check it out.

www.netcom.com/~neubine/

David Chen
Neubine@ix.netcom.com

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  9 01:48:37 1999
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From: "B Collett" <hcollett@ihug.co.nz>
To: "Team 3S Tech List" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: VPC wires, HELP!
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:50:45 +1300
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------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF4297.D3DAF3E0
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Here are the wires on the VPC, I need to know where on my ECU to wire them

Henry
1991 3000GT TT



------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF4297.D3DAF3E0
Content-Type: image/jpeg;
name="wires.JPG"
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filename="wires.JPG"

/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQEAYABgAAD/2wBDAAMCAgMCAgMDAwMEAwMEBQgFBQQEBQoHBwYIDAoMDAsK
CwsNDhIQDQ4RDgsLEBYQERMUFRUVDA8XGBYUGBIUFRT/2wBDAQMEBAUEBQkFBQkUDQsNFBQUFBQU
FBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBQUFBT/wAARCAHgAoADASEA
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ODk6Q0RFRkdISUpTVFVWV1hZWmNkZWZnaGlqc3R1dnd4eXqDhIWGh4iJipKTlJWWl5iZmqKjpKWm
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  9 01:52:52 1999
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Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 10:54:05 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: Carbon Fiber Hood
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> Just letting everyone know I got a new Carbon Fiber hood (NOT the
> GT-PRO one) a better one... Anyways I have pics before I paint it and
> you guy can check it out.

You already primed it right ? I ask because I don't see any carbon fiber. The
cut-outs look interesting but how do you prevent water, dirt, pedestrians, etc.
from going in ?

The closer look to the air filter scoop doesn't look nice. I guess the slot was
cut out afterwards and was not included in the mold, but it's functional for
sure. And when you say "better hood", the latches are also not looking that
great in quality. But sure, the weight is much less and they do not have to work
overtime. Just bear in mind, the additional cut-outs in the front of the hood
increase the amount of air underneight and will start to lift the hood in the
rear. This is why some slits in the rear would be the best solution.

Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  9 02:18:29 1999
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From: "3000gtvr4" <gtovr4@postalzone.com>
To: "David Chen" <neubine@ix.netcom.com>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Carbon Fiber Hood
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 02:21:07 -0800
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Hi David,

I saw your hood...very interesting indeed. I have not seen one quite like this.
Where did u get it from? I mean which company and can it be obtained in the US.
Hope it is not one of those abflug kits - that means it is time to go to Japan.
:)

The vents on the hood are shaped different from the one at gtpro. Btw, is that
front bumper a bozzspeed front bumper or did u mold the front lip to the stock
bumper? :) Just curious.

Thanks

Julian Ng
94 Veilside GTO
gtovr4@postalzone.com

-----Original Message-----
From: David Chen <neubine@ix.netcom.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 11:37 PM
Subject: Team3S: Carbon Fiber Hood


>Hi everyone,
>
>    Just letting everyone know I got a new Carbon Fiber hood (NOT the
>GT-PRO one) a better one... Anyways I have pics before I paint it and
>you guy can check it out.
>
>www.netcom.com/~neubine/
>
>David Chen
>Neubine@ix.netcom.com
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  9 06:41:48 1999
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From: "Robert Jerome Mengler" <RMENGLER@statoil.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
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Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 08:41:10 +0100
Subject: Team3S: FrontWheelDrive: Taking off tooQuickly In 1st?WHEEL-HOP
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Well guys, I really didn't see any replies to my previous post
(.......standard transmission '94 3000gtSL  ...... sometimes give the car
too much gas and the front tires slip in first gear.   Lately, I have
noticed a chunk-chunk-chunk (maybe 3-5 times in quick succession) deep
sound (for lack of a better word) coming from the front tires which I am
hoping is just the tires grabbing, then not grabbing, then grabbing, etc.
until traction is good and the sound goes away.   I noticed a similar sound
though, backing off the end of my driveway this morning, almost like a
shock bottoming out or something.  It only clunked once obviously while
backing off the slight curve from my sloping driveway.  I am wondering with
only 64,000 miles if it is possible that struts and/or shocks could be worn
at this stage.   Loose CV boots?????   But could the chunk-chunk-chunk
occasional noise upon quick acceleration in 1st gear described above really
be related to shocks or struts??)  other than this is the standard term
called WHEEL HOP.  I noticed someone else on the list is experiencing this
same problem at 64,000 miles too so I guess I can deduce I may need new
struts??????????  Than I must decide whether to go stock or upgrade and I
will need something with the ECS capabilities.   So, I guess I will read
previous posts on strut upgrades for the N/A 3000gt but I wish you all had
an index file for archives where we could search title/headers for key
words.


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  9 07:10:04 1999
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From: "Darcy Gunnlaugson" <wce@telus.net>
To: "Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Re: Struts-was Front Wheel Drive: Taking off too quickly
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Hi Bob;

Sounds like you need new struts ( BTW I believe it was Ken who posted and
suggested the
same). If they are problematic at this point, given your quoted mileage,
then they have seen "some use" (are you sure your Speedo reflects accurate
mileage?) If the mileage is accurate then you should have the alignment and
suspension checked as well at a "reputable" shop. They can check for the
source of the clunking while they are at it. There is no reason except a
continuous rough road, or maybe hard circuit racing,  for struts to go with
these low miles. And, to retain ECS you will have to go with OEM
replacements. I believe Barry went with Gabriels and says the improvement is
so great that the loss of ECS is a worthwhile tradeoff. Maybe he can offer
some insight (again;-) into their handling characteristics as  compared to
OEM.

BEst

Darc

snip

>Well guys, I really didn't see any replies to my previous post
>(.......standard transmission '94 3000gtSL  ...... sometimes give the car
>too much gas and the front tires slip in first gear.   Lately, I have
>noticed a chunk-chunk-chunk (maybe 3-5 times in quick succession) .....

snip


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  9 07:44:26 1999
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Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 09:39:42 -0600
To: <beking@home.com>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Vr-4 launching
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The fastest time I ever recorded with my stock VR4 on a G-Tech was 5.5 0-60
and 13.5 @105, IN THE RAIN!

Well, it had rained a little while ago, and the street was still damp, so I
could easily spin all four tires without a high rpm clutch dump. With the
tires spinning, the little sucker LAUNCHED out of the hole like a rocket ship.

Ever since, I've wondered if perhaps applying a little water or bleach to
the tires prior to a launch might help out. It would let me get a good
launch without having to do destroy my clutch and Getrag in the process.

I have water running to my front brake rotors, so it would be a piece of
cake to move the hoses so they squirt onto the tire tread instead.  It
would be no trouble to run hoses to the back.

Ideas, anyone?

Rich/old poop/94 VR4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  9 07:55:08 1999
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To: "Robert Jerome Mengler" <RMENGLER@statoil.com>,
        stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: FrontWheelDrive: Taking off tooQuickly In
  1st?WHEEL-HOP
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>   Lately, I have
>noticed a chunk-chunk-chunk (maybe 3-5 times in quick succession) deep
>sound (for lack of a better word) coming from the front tires which I am
>hoping is just the tires grabbing


I heard the same thing coming from my front wheels the other day. Turns out
that I had been interrupted by my neighbor whilst changing back to street
tires (Hey Rich, whatchadoon?), and I forgot to torque down the front lugs.
Actually, I forgot to tighten them at all. So when I heard all these nastly
clicks and clanks coming from the front, it  dawned on me what was wrong. I
tightened everything up and all the noise went away.

That's a long way of telling you to check your lug nuts.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4/nuts!
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  9 08:35:25 1999
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: "Robert Jerome Mengler" <RMENGLER@statoil.com>,
        <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Cc: "Wallis, Gavin" <WallisG@MWAA.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: FrontWheelDrive: Taking off tooQuickly In 1st?WHEEL-HOP
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 08:22:40 -0800
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-----Original Message-----From: Robert Jerome Mengler
<RMENGLER@statoil.com>
----------snip----------
>noticed a chunk-chunk-chunk (maybe 3-5 times in quick succession)
deep
>sound (for lack of a better word) coming from the front tires which
I am
>hoping is just the tires grabbing, then not grabbing, then
grabbing, etc.

If you're in a hurry at the times you notice this, especially if the
road is wet from "morning dew" or if it's uneven..., a little
"hopping" sounds pretty normal.  Remember that a quick take-off in a
FWD car shifts the weight to the back and off the front tires.
Hopefully, the "chunk-ing" sound is caused only by underinflated
tires or an irregular surface...


>until traction is good and the sound goes away.   I noticed a
similar sound
>though, backing off the end of my driveway this morning, almost
like a
>shock bottoming out or something.  It only clunked once obviously
while
>backing off the slight curve from my sloping driveway.
------------snip-------------

That noise could easily be from the play in the brakes being applied
in reverse- you'll get a matching one the first braking you do going
forward right after that, too...


>will need something with the ECS capabilities.   So, I guess I will
read
>previous posts on strut upgrades for the N/A 3000gt but I wish you
all had
>an index file for archives where we could search title/headers for
key
>words.

Excuse me?  "You all" is "we all", ...we're all owner-members just
like you.  The Team3S Admins (with assistance from other member
volunteers, notably an Herculean effort by Gavin Wallis) have been
putting together a FAQ section for our upcoming new website for the
better part of 6 months.  Perhaps the FAQ would happen faster if you
would care to volunteer?  :-)

The archives have been available since "day 1".  They are (and have
always been) searchable by keyword, explained on the Archive Page...

Regards,

Forrest  '94 Stealth NT





For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  9 08:54:27 1999
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From: Matt Jannusch <MAJ@BigCharts.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: FrontWheelDrive: Taking off tooQuickly In 1st?WHEEL-H
OP
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:54:15 -0600
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> I am wondering with only 64,000 miles if it is possible that struts
> and/or shocks could be worn at this stage.   Loose CV boots?????
> But could the chunk-chunk-chunk occasional noise upon quick
> acceleration in 1st gear described above really be related to
> shocks or struts??)  other than this is the standard term
> called WHEEL HOP.

Most likely struts.  In this sort of case, there's really no replacement for jacking up the car and getting your hands dirty.  Check the strut mounts and make sure everything is tight.  Verify that any bushings on the suspension components are okay (not cracked or falling out of their locations).  If you take the struts off the car, you should be able to compress/uncompress them by hand with much resistance the whole stroke.

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  9 17:01:57 1999
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Reply-To: <beking@home.com>
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Vr-4 launching
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 18:02:40 -0700
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I managed a 4.9 (G-Tech) when stock, and a 4.6 (G-Tech) with 16 psi and
standard bolt-on mods.    I did get a 4.2 once with basic mods but could not
reproduce it so I do not know how accurate it was or if it was just me.

I have not had a satisfactory G-Tech run since the first round of major mods
due to an ailing clutch, and this round of mods isn't measurable yet due to
a chronic lack of self-motivation.

I know from street drags before the engine blew that it is squarely in 911TT
AWD territory, perhaps beyond, and well beyond 'vettes and Vipers and that
lot.

Anyway, I really don't think you need to induce wheelspin with the VR4 using
water.  Just don't do a burnout (if at the track), and launch hard.  With
mods, you'll have enough HP to be concerned about too much wheelspin, even
with the AWD advantage.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Merritt
> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 1999 8:40 AM
> To: beking@home.com; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Vr-4 launching
>
>
> The fastest time I ever recorded with my stock VR4 on a G-Tech
> was 5.5 0-60
> and 13.5 @105, IN THE RAIN!
>
> Well, it had rained a little while ago, and the street was still
> damp, so I
> could easily spin all four tires without a high rpm clutch dump. With the
> tires spinning, the little sucker LAUNCHED out of the hole like a
> rocket ship.
>
> Ever since, I've wondered if perhaps applying a little water or bleach to
> the tires prior to a launch might help out. It would let me get a good
> launch without having to do destroy my clutch and Getrag in the process.
>
> I have water running to my front brake rotors, so it would be a piece of
> cake to move the hoses so they squirt onto the tire tread instead.  It
> would be no trouble to run hoses to the back.
>
> Ideas, anyone?
>
> Rich/old poop/94 VR4
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  9 17:41:49 1999
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Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 19:42:05 -0600
From: "Trevor L. James" <trevor@kscable.com>
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Subject: Team3S: Boost Conversions AGAIN...
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I know that we go over this all to often. I'll try to be brief. I own a HKS EVC IV. It displays boost in kg/cm². I want to run 15 psi (max on pump gas with stock fuel and turbos). I was under the impression that 1 kg/cm²=1 bar=14.5 psi. I was running 1.00 kg/cm² because the next step up (1.05 kg/cm²) would have been 15.225psi. This site:
http://www.webcom.com/legacysy/convert2/convert2.html
shows 1.00 kg/cm²=14.22psi. If this true I can run 1.05 kg/cm² because it's approximately 14.94psi. Anyone know if 1.00kg/cm² REALLY equals 14.22psi?

Trevor James
96 R/T TT
12.86@107.2
12.68@111.4 0-60 4.14 Gtech
92 GMC Typhoon
13.90@97.8 0-60 5.09 Gtech

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  9 17:48:31 1999
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From: Matt Jannusch <MAJ@BigCharts.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Boost Conversions AGAIN...
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 19:48:18 -0600
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> I know that we go over this all to often. I'll try to be
> brief. I own a HKS EVC IV. It displays boost in kg/cm². I
> want to run 15 psi (max on pump gas with stock fuel and
> turbos). I was under the impression that 1 kg/cm²=1 bar=14.5
> psi. I was running 1.00 kg/cm² because the next step up (1.05
> kg/cm²) would have been 15.225psi. This site:
> http://www.webcom.com/legacysy/convert2/convert2.html
> shows 1.00 kg/cm²=14.22psi. If this true I can run 1.05
> kg/cm² because it's approximately 14.94psi. Anyone know if
> 1.00kg/cm² REALLY equals 14.22psi?

The website conversion is correct.  1.0 kg/cm2 does not equal 1.0 bar.

-Matt
'95 3000GT Spyder VR4

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  9 17:51:37 1999
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From: "Jim Berry" <fastmax@home.com>
To: <jczoom@iname.com>, "Stealth-3000GT" <stealth-3000GT@list.sirius.com>
Cc: "Bryan Schwieg" <schwieg@ibm.net>,
        "Brad Bedell BIG BRAKES" <bbedell@austin.rr.com>
References: <01BF3F49.BA9EE040@slip166-72-78-39.ga.us.prserv.net> <384E6EA4.74697DA6@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Re: Adventure in braking
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I have a set of Brads calipers on my 93TT stealth ---- I do NOT run it
with stock rims, I have a set of 94 chrome rims and have no clearance
problems. When installing the brakes I installed one of my stock 17"
stealth rims --- it fit but just barely. At one point the clearance is about
.020 of an inch. I have some pics but they don't show the problem very
well. I can email the pictures if you'r interested.

      Jim Berry

===================================================
> > Hello John,
> > I was reading a post you wrote about Brad's big brakes and the use of stock rims. I'm looking to
get his brakes, but would like to use my stock '92 stealth rims. Brad says they won't work.
> ---> Brad is correct, they will not work as is.
>
>  Are you saying they will if you use supra rotors? Please elaborate,
> what do I have to mod? The wheels? rotors?
> --->You would have to machine away some of the weld metal and part of
> the spoke and part of the inner diameter of the rim.  Its safer and
> easier to buy new/used rims.  I'd never try modifying a rim for safety
> reasons because I run road courses.
>
> In order to fit the Supra rotors properly, you must machine away some of
> the thin pilot diameter so the rotor fits flat against the TT hub.  Its
> a simple process, IF you have a BIG lathe.
>
> If you have a lathe big enough to turn away enough stock of the rim to
> provide clearance, then cutting the inner hat of the rotor will be a
> piece of cake.
>
> Good luck.
>
> John Christian
>
>
>
> > Thanks for your help,
> > Bryan
>
> --
> JCZoooM  93 TT 12.46@109Mph   Now with Porsche brakes
> Email---> JCZooM@iname.com
> http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/flats/4538
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  9 19:21:53 1999
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Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 19:17:36 -0800
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Hi everyone,

    To answer some questions that people have been sending me.

1. The Hood is a carbon fiber hood. If you look closely at the close
pictures and the back pictures of the hood you can see that the material

is black and is carbon fiber. Japanese companies pre-prime everything
they have for you. (Smart ehhh....) So that people would only have to
wet sand and spray on a thin layer of primer. If you look at the picture

mislabeled as backlatch.jpg, It's actually the back of the scoop. you
can see the carbon fiber there.

2. The vents are designed as a vacum hood. If you look at pictures of a
Lancer it works on the same concept. The hood acts like a vacum, drawing

hot air from inside the engine. The air scoop on the passanger side is
designed to scoop air. (Duh) =). Also the front has a little dam that
prevent air from entering and keeps air from going into the back of the
hood. Also the scoop was also taken from the Lancer. The scoop cutout
was taken from the lancer and dropped right into the hood.

3. To keep dirt and pedestrians out (midget ones) there are screens that

come with the hood that are supposed to go under the hood. To keep water

out you put the car in a garage.... =)

4. The hood acroding to a bathroom scale.... is about 18 lbs... a little

heavier than the GT-Pro Hood but it's got a carbon fiber renforement on
the bottom that is BTW molded from the stock hood and modified. It even
includes little holes for the window washer nozzles. NEAT!

5. Yes... I used to have big wing in the back... but sadly i sold it and

I bought a 99 VR-4 wing... YEAH!

6. The front bumper is a Bozz Speed Front lip that I molded onto the
bumper.

7. Also the latch is a stock latch that has been carbon fibered and
glued onto the hood.

8. Now the painful part..... no it's not AB-FLUG... it's Bozz
Speed...... So yes you will have to order from overseas... however Bozz
Performance out of Fremont can get them for you... But again anything
shipped over from Japan will cost you, an arm, a leg, a kidney, and the
kitchen sink. Retail price is about $1400 +Shipping and Tax if you live
in CA. (!!!YOUCH!!!)

9. I have driven the car with the hood on, to the body shop, and so far
I can see a little difference, the car feels a little more responsive
with the throttle, but otherwise the good news is that IT WORKS..... It
didn't fly off, buckle, or shake rattle, and roll. hehehe And this is at

95 MPH..... =) ah hem... i mean, the safe..... speed limit...... of
65.....

P.S. Hopefully my car will all be painted, with a system and have a body

kit by FEB of 2000, that is unless that world ends and everyone dies...
on Jan 1 =P But finally I'll have a car that can beat those stupid
eclipses in the Mitsu Class at shows....... I HATE DSM.... exceptions
goes out to those GS-T and GSXers respectfully....



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Thu Dec  9 19:48:54 1999
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References: <0.87d7ea72.25809cbd@aol.com> <3.0.5.32.19991209093942.00888140@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Vr-4 launching
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 18:15:36 -0800
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I was thinking about using narrow/bald tires for the same pupose.

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec 10 06:06:38 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 09:56:10 +0100
From: "R.G." <robby@swissonline.ch>
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Yes, Matt (and the website) is correct !

This are the figures I'm using :

1,00 bar = 1,019716213 kg/cm2 = 14,50377377 psi
1,00 kg/cm2 = 0,980665 bar = 14,22334331 psi
1,00 psi = 0,06894757293 bar = 0,07030695796 kg/cm2

> The website conversion is correct.  1.0 kg/cm2 does not equal 1.0 bar.

Roger
93'3000GT TT


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec 10 06:07:30 1999
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Yes, Matt (and the website) is correct !

This are the figures I'm using :

1,00 bar = 1,019716213 kg/cm2 = 14,50377377 psi
1,00 kg/cm2 = 0,980665 bar = 14,22334331 psi
1,00 psi = 0,06894757293 bar = 0,07030695796 kg/cm2

> The website conversion is correct.  1.0 kg/cm2 does not equal 1.0 bar.

Roger
93'3000GT TT


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec 10 07:51:43 1999
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikael_=C5kesson?= <vr4@bahnhof.se>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: EGT meter
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:53:09 +0100
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Hi

I'm looking for an EGT meter, I want feedback regarding brand, quality and
price.

What's best, digital or analog?

Also, is the best location in the rear exhaust manifold? What temperature
can I expect in the rear exhaust?

Best regards

Mikael Akesson http://www.3000gt.nu



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec 10 08:00:33 1999
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From: Ryan Southwick <Ryan.Southwick@cmshartzell.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Shocks.
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:04:23 -0500
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Hello;

I have heard several conversations on shocks.  What does everyone prefer for
replacements.  I currently own a 91 VR-4.
Cheers,
Ryan



For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec 10 08:05:22 1999
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Reply-To: <beking@home.com>
From: "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Shocks.
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 09:05:49 -0700
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GABs, no question.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Ryan Southwick
> Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 9:04 AM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Shocks.
>
>
>
> Hello;
>
> I have heard several conversations on shocks.  What does everyone
> prefer for
> replacements.  I currently own a 91 VR-4.
> Cheers,
> Ryan
>
>
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec 10 08:11:42 1999
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From: "Mohler, Jeff" <jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
To: "'beking@home.com'" <beking@home.com>, stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Shocks.
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:15:06 -0800
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What do these cost?

-----Original Message-----
From: Barry E. King [mailto:beking@home.com]
Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 8:06 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: Shocks.


GABs, no question.


Barry

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Ryan Southwick
> Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 9:04 AM
> To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Shocks.
>
>
>
> Hello;
>
> I have heard several conversations on shocks.  What does everyone
> prefer for
> replacements.  I currently own a 91 VR-4.
> Cheers,
> Ryan
>
>
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec 10 11:52:50 1999
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Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:48:14 -0800 (PST)
From: George Kuo <amkreadgto@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Shocks.
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
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Hi All,

I think I'll be swaping out my stock shocks pretty
soon too.. 92K original miles!! Just wondering if
there are other alternatives besides GABs and the new
TEINs?? Thanx for any info..

George
Irvine, CA

--- "Barry E. King" <beking@home.com> wrote:
> GABs, no question.
>
>
> Barry
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> > [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On
> Behalf Of Ryan Southwick
> > Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 9:04 AM
> > To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> > Subject: RE: Team3S: Shocks.
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello;
> >
> > I have heard several conversations on shocks.
> What does everyone
> > prefer for
> > replacements.  I currently own a 91 VR-4.
> > Cheers,
> > Ryan
> >
> >
> >
> > For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> > http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
> > For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> > http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
> >
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
> http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec 10 13:23:33 1999
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From: "nketo" <nketo@accglobal.net>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: clutch MATERIALS
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 07:18:38 -0800
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Hey everyone,

I was wondering if any of you know the thermal/physical characteristics of
KEVLAR vs. CEREMIC clutches?

I'm interested in the technical details; I know people like one over the
other,
but I'd like to know about wear, high-temp stability, glazing, holding
power, etc., that each
has over the other.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance.

-Noble

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec 10 13:29:06 1999
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From: "Brad Younkman" <stealth@digitalexp.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Crankshaft pulley
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:28:19 -0500
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Can anyone give me some advice on how to change the crankshaft pulley. =
Where can I get a tool like manual shows or is there another way to get =
it off? Thanks

Brad Younkman
91 Stealth RT TT
#078

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Can anyone give me some advice on how to change the =
crankshaft=20
pulley. Where can I get a tool like manual shows or is there another way =
to get=20
it off? Thanks</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Brad Younkman</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>91 Stealth RT=20
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec 10 14:00:20 1999
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From: "Robert Jerome Mengler" <RMENGLER@statoil.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Message-ID: <41256843.00796A47.00@stfo-lnsmtp.statoil.no>
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:59:45 +0100
Subject: Summary: Re: Team3S: FrontWheelDrive: Taking off tooQuickly In
1st?WHEEL-HOP
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Thanks Bob and all for the help on the "wheel-hop".   The car seems real
"new" mechanically, I inflated the car to specks a couple of months ago (I
should probably check them again), the lug nuts are tight and I would say
it only has 64000 original miles.   I am hard on cars, that is true, and it
may be having it's noticeable toe with my excessive quick starts, I'll just
have to chill and I may get another 10-20000 miles on the struts or
whatever other front-end parts that are loosening up.   I will inspect the
front-end parts (motor mounts too) for signs of wear, etc.  and maybe take
it in if things look questionable or get worse.  If anyone sees better
alternatives to this "solution", please let me know.

   As for the archives, my emailer apparently automatically extracts the
archive files because they do not show up as true ZIP files when I bring up
my email.  Of course I know I can search these entire files with any text
editor and it does help to have them by month, but for some reason these
retrieved zip files and the digest version coming to me each day does not
have the "table of contents" at the beginning of the digest file.  The
Buick turbo list offers an additional INDEX file of all Subject lines and
email dates stripped off from every email from the history of the list.
This ZIP file (updated monthly) could be brought over to our pcs from the
archives area and used in a text editor to search for the subjects/dates so
that we would know which archive to retrieve  the key subject of interest
from.  I suggested this and some other things months ago when someone posed
the question of ideas for FAQS, etc. and would be glad to dig it up.  In
fact, I am thinking maybe this is not pertient info to everybody on the
list Bob, because I believe it was requested then too that I email him
directly.   So, I apologize again if I have rambled on.  Hope that helps
clarify.

Bob
1994 Mitusbishi 3000gt  SL, standard transmission, 164000 miles and on the
way now to take us to our Christmas Party




"Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com> on 12/09/99 05:22:40 PM

To:    Robert Jerome Mengler, stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
cc:    "Wallis, Gavin" <WallisG@MWAA.com>
Subject:  Re: Team3S: FrontWheelDrive: Taking off tooQuickly In
       1st?WHEEL-HOP




-----Original Message-----From: Robert Jerome Mengler
<RMENGLER@statoil.com>
----------snip----------
>noticed a chunk-chunk-chunk (maybe 3-5 times in quick succession)
deep
>sound (for lack of a better word) coming from the front tires which
I am
>hoping is just the tires grabbing, then not grabbing, then
grabbing, etc.

If you're in a hurry at the times you notice this, especially if the
road is wet from "morning dew" or if it's uneven..., a little
"hopping" sounds pretty normal.<snip>

*********yes, it is intermittent but possibly more noticeable*********
>until traction is good and the sound goes away.   I noticed a
similar sound
>though, backing off the end of my driveway this morning, almost
like a
>shock bottoming out or something.  It only clunked once obviously
while
>backing off the slight curve from my sloping driveway.
------------snip-------------

That noise could easily be from the play in the brakes being applied
in reverse- you'll get a matching one the first braking you do going
forward right after that, too...


>will need something with the ECS capabilities.   So, I guess I will
read
>previous posts on strut upgrades for the N/A 3000gt but I wish you
all had
>an index file for archives where we could search title/headers for
key
>words.

Excuse me?  "You all" is "we all", ...we're all owner-members just
like you.  The Team3S Admins (with assistance from other member
volunteers, notably an Herculean effort by Gavin Wallis) have been
putting together a FAQ section for our upcoming new website for the
better part of 6 months.  Perhaps the FAQ would happen faster if you
would care to volunteer?  :-)

The archives have been available since "day 1".  They are (and have
always been) searchable by keyword, explained on the Archive Page...

Regards,

Forrest  '94 Stealth NT









For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec 10 15:17:00 1999
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From: "3000gtvr4" <gtovr4@postalzone.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Predator (odyssey) Battery Black Panther
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:19:40 -0800
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Hi everyone,

I managed to locate the person and company which sells the Predator battery.
According to the person I spoke to, it is no longer called the Predator but
Odyssey battery.

Here's some info for those who are interested in this light weight battery:

They are located in Ontario, Canada.

URL: www.absolutebattery.com
Crischell Automotive Products, LLC.
Guy's name is Arold or Harold and the number is 1-877-549-4454


Julian Ng
94 Pearl White Veilside GTO
gtovr4@postalzone.com


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec 10 16:46:08 1999
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From: "Vineet Singh" <billi_gates@hotmail.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Carbon Fibre (precautions)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 18:46:03 -0600
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That Bozz speed hood looks pretty cool. I will assume the vents up top are
functional, but only really work for the front turbo area. A way to cool
down the rear turbo's heat would be nice too!

About the primer on carbon fiber. THIS IS NECESSARY to the best of my
knowledge. I have done quite a bit of fiberglass work on my other cars, and
up until about 2 years ago, there wasn't a commercially available
gelcoat/topcoat that lasted more than a year or two under UV radiation.

What does this mean? Well from what I know, the top layer in a carbon fiber
construction is a high quality epoxy type material. Then you lay the fiber
material down with regular epoxy as the "adhesive". If the top surface is
exposed to the sun (UV), it starts to break down the molecular structure
that makes it what it is. It will loose luster, turn yellow, have little
cracks, and soon start delaminating.

The only way I know of to protect carbon fiber from this unfortunate
situation is to prime and paint it just like any other material (except for
SS :). I know this pisses people off, but don't say I didn't warn you! :)

I COULD be wrong, maybe they do have a UV proof topcoat now, in that case,
just read the first paragraph, and skip the rest (oops too late :)

Vineet Singh
Manuals On CD - http://manualcd.dsm.org
Club DSM A/T - http://at.dsm.org  -  "Never Lift To Shift!"
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec 10 17:02:46 1999
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From: "Kyle Meyer" <kyle@logicaldirection.com>
To: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: Shocks: (GAB - Price/Dealers)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 19:06:33 -0600
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Does anyone know of a reliable, cheap dealer to get them from as well? I
have a '92 R/T NT that is _badly_ in need of some new front shocks...

-Kyle

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> [mailto:owner-stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com]On Behalf Of Mohler, Jeff
> Sent: Friday, December 10, 1999 10:15 AM
> To: 'beking@home.com'; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: RE: Team3S: Shocks.
>
>
> What do these cost? [GAB Shocks]

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec 10 17:24:47 1999
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From: "Oskar" <swede@pclink.com>
To: "3000gtvr4" <gtovr4@postalzone.com>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
References: <005401bf4365$0a294d20$aa44e4d8@oemcomputer>
Subject: Re: Team3S: Predator (odyssey) Battery Black Panther
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 19:23:02 -0600
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You can but the Odyssey battery from Jegs as well.

Oskar
'95 R/T TT

> I managed to locate the person and company which sells the Predator
battery.
> According to the person I spoke to, it is no longer called the Predator
but
> Odyssey battery.
>


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Fri Dec 10 17:31:46 1999
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: "Robert Jerome Mengler" <RMENGLER@statoil.com>,
        "Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Searchable Archives (was:FWD-TakingOff 2Quickly-WHEEL-HOP)
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:28:51 -0800
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-----Original Message-----From: Robert Jerome Mengler
<RMENGLER@statoil.com>
---------------snip-----------------
>   As for the archives, my emailer apparently automatically
extracts the
>archive files because they do not show up as true ZIP files when I
bring up
>my email.  Of course I know I can search these entire files with
any text
>editor and it does help to have them by month, but for some reason
these
>retrieved zip files and the digest version coming to me each day
does not
>have the "table of contents" at the beginning of the digest file.
The
>Buick turbo list offers an additional INDEX file of all Subject
lines and
>email dates stripped off from every email from the history of the
list.
>This ZIP file (updated monthly) could be brought over to our pcs
from the
>archives area and used in a text editor to search for the
subjects/dates so
>that we would know which archive to retrieve  the key subject of
interest
>from.  I suggested this and some other things months ago when
someone posed
>the question of ideas for FAQS, etc. and would be glad to dig it
up.  In
>fact, I am thinking maybe this is not pertient info to everybody on
the
>list Bob, because I believe it was requested then too that I email
him
>directly.   So, I apologize again if I have rambled on.  Hope that
helps
>clarify.


Your emailer is a proprietary in-line business variety, and as such,
it will do what the MIS guys at your company, Statoil, tell it to
do...  So we have no control there.  But it's probably equally
clumsy for the rest of us with other browsers & email clients.  We
currently have no control over what our Majordomo software does when
it saves our archives.  There are no choices, so I don't follow what
you don't understand.  As I've said before, when we were a small
list, it was possible to play with them and save them in a slightly
different format, but now it's automatic.  Suggesting that we need
an index is suggesting that 'someone else' make one!?

That Buick drivers have a certain kind of archive is irrelevant, and
academic, for our purposes.  We all know that there are better ways
to do everything, but until some member with copious free time steps
up and says, "I'll do it", and chooses to invest their personal time
on such a project, nothing changes.  BTW...  It's also a pretty good
bet that there are a lot fewer professionals on some Buick list than
there are at Team3S.  Many folks on this list who drive Stealths and
3000GTs are business leaders (present or future), executives,
self-employed, supertechs, etc, with a minimum of free time...
Could it be that Buick drivers have more free time?  :-)  Except for
the Grand Nationals, I personally don't even know anyone who drives
a Buick...  or why...  ;-)

To finish answering your question...  I still don't know all the
details, but we'll be moving the Team3S list, and our (old AND new)
Web Pages (including FAQ) to a faster, better server by the end of
the year.  We will still be using the best software out there (which
happens to be Majordomo), but from what I understand, we will
probably have a more Web-based archive, possibly of the variety that
you prefer.  And hopefully with an interface that's easier for all
of us to use for searches.  And it's going to happen because one of
the
Team3S members, Jeff Mohler, stepped up and offered his expertise
and his resources to give us a better medium through which we can
share information.  And if we still need an index list with the new
setup, we would be happy to accept you as a volunteer to make one
up!  :-)

Anyone with non-tecnical suggestions or comments should reply
privately, please...

Best,

Forrest




For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec 14 10:37:35 1999
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: what happens to ECS if you do w/non-oem shocks?
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:37:02 +1300
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or you can simply remove the ECS light bulb from the dash console., it takes
about 5 mins to remove and reinstall.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Berry [mailto:fastmax@home.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 14 December 1999 7:13
To: kyle@logicaldirection.com; Nick Xiong
Cc: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: what happens to ECS if you do w/non-oem shocks?


As Barry said, you get the light --- I disconnected the control
module in the right rear trunk area and the light went away.
I checked the schematics first, it has a bunch of inputs and
only the shocks as outputs so no side effects were seen.

   Jim Berry

=============================================

> what happens to ECS if you do w/non-oem shocks?
>

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec 14 11:30:21 1999
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From: "Bob Forrest" <bf@bobforrest.com>
To: "Team3S" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: Admin Notice: List problems - PLEASE read...
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:27:54 -0800
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Hey, all,

Apologies for the list stumbling over the last few days...  Our ISP
is in a state of confusion while they are installing new servers and
reconfiguring their entire system.  The Team3S list has been down
for two consecutive nights and sporadic outages during the days as
well.  This is a similar "hiccup" to what we experienced over the
Thanksgiving weekend.  You may find that posts are coming in out of
order or that the server has "eaten" one of your posts and it
doesn't show up at all.  There are myriad problems that may occur
during this period, the worst of which is that the list may well go
down again for an hour or for a day...  I figured I'd better squeeze
a note out to you all before that happens.  :-)

The admins are on the case (except for Darcy, whose entire telco is
down until 12/17!), and we'll keep you updated as we learn more
about the current situation.  Please don't send "test posts" to the
list-- you'll either see messages or you won't.  And we'll be
through all of it soon.

This has happened just a few days too soon, since we're just about
to move the list elsewhere.  Our ISP, Sirius.com, got gobbled up by
a bigger fish, FirstWorld.com, and went from "The Best in the Bay
Area" to "the worst on the West Coast" as a result of the 'merger'.
We'll be implementing a new system on another server with an easier
and more organized way of accessing the archives via web pages.
We'll have the past subjects indexed, and much better search
capabilities.  And we've already begun testing the new website; with
any luck, the entire thing will come together as a new and much
better setup on or before the new millenium begins.  Stay tuned...

Thanks to all for your patience, and for not drowning me with email!
One fortunate thing is that list traffic is usually very low this
time of year, with most folks involved with plans for the holidays
with family and friends.  Hopefully you are too.  My email has also
been 'down' as much as it's been 'up' over the last couple of days,
so if I don't reply right away to your note, you'll know why...

Best to all,

Forrest
for the Admins...


For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec 14 11:38:44 1999
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To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: what happens to ECS if you do w/non-oem shocks?
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:38:13 +1300
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thats your problem right there you dont need a wrench only a phillips head
screwdriver, theres 2 screws which hold the facia on and 2 or four screws
which hold that actual speedo in place, then you just pull it forward and it
comes out.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Berry [mailto:fastmax@home.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 15 December 1999 8:32
To: Judd, Ryan - Axon AKL
Subject: Re: Team3S: what happens to ECS if you do w/non-oem shocks?


I'm pretty handy with a wrench and I'd be hard pressed to remove the
instrument cluster and reinstall it in 5 min ---- try 1/2 hour if you know
what you're doing.

   Jim Berry

===========================================



> or you can simply remove the ECS light bulb from the dash console., it
takes
> about 5 mins to remove and reinstall.
>

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec 14 12:14:00 1999
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Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:13:06 -0600
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: Team3S: What's that exhaust again?
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I found a Y exhaust pipe in a catalog that goes from a 3 in. inlet pipe to
two 2-1/2 in. pipes. I thought I might fab up a rear exhaust with it, going
from the Y to two 2-1/2 in. straight-through glass pack mufflers.

But I thought I'd better check with the wizards on the list first before I
get myself into trouble:

1.  Is the pipe from the main cat back a 3-in. pipe?
2.  If I split it into two 2-1/2 in. pipes, it will not cause more
restriction, correct? (I recall recent calculations here a few days ago
that seemed to indicate I will be allright)
3.  The biggest problem seems to be fitting a muffler on the passenger
side. Has anyone found a glasspack that fits nicely in there?  If so, what
size? Who makes it? How loud?

All advice and guidance will be greatly appreciated.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4/gettin' LOUD

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec 14 13:26:12 1999
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From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: "'Merritt'" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Cc: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com,
        "'Errin Humprhrey'"
<errin@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: Team3S: What's that exhaust again?
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:24:52 -0800
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Rich...

I don't think this will work. The output from the stock cat is 2.5" (maybe
even 2.25"). I know of one listmember (Errin Humphrey) who has a 2.5" dual
exhaust, but it's actually a dual from the precats back. He did the math and
it actually flows more air than the more common 3" single pipe. I'm not sure
if he has any muffler at all (Errin, are you out there?) but it sounds quite
nice. My concern with this approach is weight. When I pulled my stock
exhaust, it was VERY heavy (I wish I had weighed it before it hit the scrap
heap). The GReddy, which eliminates the stock crossover by the trunk is
lighter, but still heavy. I removed it finally and added a single Flowmaster
muffler to the end of the downpipe. I think this is as light as I can hope
to get. Yes, it's louder than stock, but heck...I just turn up the stereo
and go faster so the sound is blown behind me.   :-)

Looking forward...Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Merritt [mailto:merritt@cedar-rapids.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 12:13 PM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: What's that exhaust again?


I found a Y exhaust pipe in a catalog that goes from a 3 in. inlet pipe to
two 2-1/2 in. pipes. I thought I might fab up a rear exhaust with it, going
from the Y to two 2-1/2 in. straight-through glass pack mufflers.

But I thought I'd better check with the wizards on the list first before I
get myself into trouble:

1.  Is the pipe from the main cat back a 3-in. pipe?
2.  If I split it into two 2-1/2 in. pipes, it will not cause more
restriction, correct? (I recall recent calculations here a few days ago
that seemed to indicate I will be allright)
3.  The biggest problem seems to be fitting a muffler on the passenger
side. Has anyone found a glasspack that fits nicely in there?  If so, what
size? Who makes it? How loud?

All advice and guidance will be greatly appreciated.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4/gettin' LOUD

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec 14 14:42:40 1999
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From: "Mohler, Jeff" <jeff.mohler@netapp.com>
To: "'3s'" <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: Team3S: ECS Struts
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:46:22 -0800
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Anybody have a set of GOOD working ECS struts they're not planning to use?

Im considering those (in sport mode) as an upgrade, if only to keep my kidneys
intact for when we do a spring/coilover upgrade next spring.

Thanks
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Tue Dec 14 16:22:26 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: What's that exhaust again?
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:02:43 -0500
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> 1.  Is the pipe from the main cat back a 3-in. pipe?
Yes on non california models.  European and CA cars had a different system
with 2 3/4" pipe and a resonator. (according to Roger)
> 2.  If I split it into two 2-1/2 in. pipes, it will not cause more
> restriction, correct? (I recall recent calculations here a few days ago
> that seemed to indicate I will be allright)
No more restriction, actually less, but I am not sure if it will help since
the 3" pipe is still before the split.
> 3.  The biggest problem seems to be fitting a muffler on the passenger
> side. Has anyone found a glasspack that fits nicely in there?  If so, what
> size? Who makes it? How loud?
Do you really want glass packs?  My experience with them is that they
eventually blow out and never sound as good as a flowmaster. (I am biased
:-) )  I just had by stock exhaust cut off from the rear axle back and had a
single 3" Flowmaster welded in.  Cost me $100 in labor at the local exhaust
shop and $89 for the muffler.  It's louder than a Borla system and sounds
very aggressive.  It does however have a resonance at cruising RPM which
could get a little annoying.  I have the "40 Series" which is the original
design, but they do have a new muffler which is supposed to cut out the
resonance. (delta flow series) Check out their site for more info.
http://www.flowmastermufflers.com
>
> All advice and guidance will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Rich/old poop/94 VR4/gettin' LOUD
>
> For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm
>

Kevin Schappell
Auto Answers
http://www.PACarSearch.com
If you love cars, check out
http://www.pacarsearch.com/motorhead


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec 15 01:34:30 1999
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Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 01:32:44 -0800
From: Errin Humphrey <errin@u.washington.edu>
Organization: University of Washington
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Chris Winkley wrote:

> I don't think this will work. The output from the stock cat is 2.5" (maybe
> even 2.25").

It's 2.75" off the main cat.

> I know of one listmember (Errin Humphrey) who has a 2.5" dual
> exhaust, but it's actually a dual from the precats back.

Yup!

> He did the math and
> it actually flows more air than the more common 3" single pipe.

It probably flows about the same as a 3.5" single (taking added
friction into account).  Certainly excessive for stock turbos, and
well sufficient for the biggest turbos currently available.

> I'm not sure if he has any muffler at all (Errin, are you out there?)

Yeah, I'm here, Chris!  :)  Actually, I'm about 1000 emails behind
on the mailing list and desperately trying to catch up.  I have dual
fullsize mufflers, one on each side.  They are Dynomax Bullet 2.5"
straight-throughs, 18" long 6" wide round stainless-steel cases.

> but it sounds quite nice.

You heard it?  Oh yeah, last November.  I think at that time I didn't
have any mufflers on.  Now with the dual Bullets (and dual glasspacks)
it sounds very smooth and "purry."  Not as boomy and much quieter
than 3" single.

> My concern with this approach is weight. When I pulled my stock
> exhaust, it was VERY heavy (I wish I had weighed it before it hit the scrap
> heap).

The stock system weighs a ton.  My true-dual system weighs very
little.  Straight-through 2.5" 14ga aluminized steel piping is quite light,
and I could easily pick up each pipe with one hand.  The mufflers
weighed in at about 8lbs apiece.  I'll weigh the system one of these
days for comparison.

Rich Merritt wrote:

> >1.  Is the pipe from the main cat back a 3-in. pipe?

2.75"

For reference sake:  piping off of the front header and rear 02
housing is 2".  Piping into and out of the catalytic conver is 2.75".
Piping off of the active exhaust unit (going to the passenger side
resonator) is 2.25".

> >2.  If I split it into two 2-1/2 in. pipes, it will not cause more
> >restriction, correct? (I recall recent calculations here a few days ago
> >that seemed to indicate I will be allright)

Definitely not.

> >3.  The biggest problem seems to be fitting a muffler on the passenger
> >side. Has anyone found a glasspack that fits nicely in there?  If so, what
> >size? Who makes it? How loud?

With dual (even just "fake" dual) straight-through exhaust, it's going to be
pretty loud unless you have mufflers on both sides.  Of course, everyone
has their own gauge for "loud."  I can tell you right away that a glasspack
(the smaller 3.5" casing kind) won't do much at all.  amhik.  If you're
going to put a full-size muffler on the passenger side (like my Bullets), it
is necessary to "modify" the fuel filler hose.  You have to remove the fuel
filler hose metal guard so you can remove the rubber hose and cut it
shorter, then modify the guard so that it leaves more room for a muffler.
Any experienced muffler mechanic can do this no problem.

Anyone on this list who hasn't seen pictures of my system and wants me
to send them some, please send me a ~personal~ email.

--Errin Humphrey
Seattle, WA

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec 15 01:37:36 1999
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Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 01:35:55 -0800
From: Errin Humphrey <errin@u.washington.edu>
Organization: University of Washington
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Kevin wrote:

>  > 1.  Is the pipe from the main cat back a 3-in. pipe?
> Yes on non california models.  European and CA cars had a different system
> with 2 3/4" pipe and a resonator. (according to Roger)

Thanks for the heads up!

Correction to my last post:  I mentioned that post-cat piping is
2.75", but I forgot to mention that my car is a CA version.

--Errin Humphrey
Seattle, WA

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec 15 06:07:06 1999
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From: "Curt Gendron" <curt_gendron@hotmail.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: What's that exhaust again?
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:06:43 CST
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I'd be very surprised if the exhaust system on CA cars is any different then
the rest.  I've worked on both OBD I and OBD II downpipes and cats and they
are the same diameter.  The only difference being the extra two O2 sensors
on the OBD II.  I know that Buscher sells a test pipe for our cars and it
fits all years.  If the diameter of the exhaust was different, I would think
the same test pipe wouldn't fit if the exhausts were different.  My Stealth
is a non-CA car and it has 2 3/4 inch exhaust.

later,
Curt
Join us at the Upper Midwest Gathering in May.  Check out
http://www.mn3s.org/upper-midwest.html for details.


>From: Errin Humphrey <errin@u.washington.edu>
>To: 3/S Sirius Mailing List <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
>Subject: Re: Team3S: What's that exhaust again?
>Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 01:35:55 -0800
>
>Kevin wrote:
>
> >  > 1.  Is the pipe from the main cat back a 3-in. pipe?
> > Yes on non california models.  European and CA cars had a different
>system
> > with 2 3/4" pipe and a resonator. (according to Roger)
>
>Thanks for the heads up!
>
>Correction to my last post:  I mentioned that post-cat piping is
>2.75", but I forgot to mention that my car is a CA version.
>
>--Errin Humphrey
>Seattle, WA
>
>For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is
>http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec 15 06:55:56 1999
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From: "R.G." <robby@freesurf.ch>
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Subject: Re: Team3S: What's that exhaust again?
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> I'd be very surprised if the exhaust system on CA cars is any different then
> the rest.  I've worked on both OBD I and OBD II downpipes and cats and they
> are the same diameter.

We are not speaking about the front at stuff. The cat back on my EU car is smaller than 3" on the inner side. This is why the ATR cat and pipe came with a restriction down to the 2 1/2" piping. Also there is a small resonator in the piping before the diff. Just have a look at the manuals.

Roger
93'3000GT TT
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec 15 06:56:18 1999
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From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: What's that exhaust again?
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>> My concern with this approach is weight. When I
>> pulled my stock exhaust, it was VERY heavy (I wish
>> I had weighed it before it hit the scrap heap).

Here are approximate weights (in pounds) of the stock
exhaust system compared to the ATR system for my 1992
Stealth TT (non-CA car). I used a bathroom scale.
Brackets are not included.
                        stock     ATR
Downpipe                  15       10
Main cat                  15        5 (test pipe 2#)
Exhaust from cat back     54       56

Stock from cat back was weighed as one piece (as
removed). ATR pieces were weighed individually.

Jeff Lucius 1992 Stealth TT


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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec 15 08:05:26 1999
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From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Cc: "'R.G.'" <robby@freesurf.ch>
Subject: RE: Team3S: What's that exhaust again?
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Folks...

Roger makes a good point. We should specify whether we're referring to ID
(Inside Diameter) or OD (Outside Diameter). I've been referring to ID in my
posts. However, I have never taken a set of calipers to the ID (or OD, which
wouldn't matter too much to me).

I was speaking of my dealings with ATR, where they say they provide a
reduction from 3" to 2.5" in order to mate to the stock catback system.
Since I already had a 3" catback exhaust, I had to have the reduction
section removed and a 3" flange welded on.

Looking forward...Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: R.G. [mailto:robby@freesurf.ch]
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 6:57 AM
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Re: Team3S: What's that exhaust again?

> I'd be very surprised if the exhaust system on CA cars is any different
then
> the rest.  I've worked on both OBD I and OBD II downpipes and cats and
they
> are the same diameter.

We are not speaking about the front at stuff. The cat back on my EU car is
smaller than 3" on the inner side. This is why the ATR cat and pipe came
with a restriction down to the 2 1/2" piping. Also there is a small
resonator in the piping before the diff. Just have a look at the manuals.

Roger
93'3000GT TT
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec 15 08:50:31 1999
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Subject: Re: Team3S: What's that exhaust again?
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Even more, the Borla cat-back comes with a reduction flange from 3" to 2 1/2" (inside) that bolts onto the stock cat. My system looks really ugly now with the reduction from the cat to the flange and then another one that goes back to 3".

The Borla cat back is damn light and I tell you my car was higher in the rear after the installation (SUV look !) I currently run the stock system due to the last gov test I've done and had no time to change it back. I'll do it in spring and will them measure the Borla weight (or when I ever clean up my garage, hehe)

Roger
93'3000GT TT

> I was speaking of my dealings with ATR, where they say they provide a
> reduction from 3" to 2.5" in order to mate to the stock catback system.
> Since I already had a 3" catback exhaust, I had to have the reduction
> section removed and a 3" flange welded on.

For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec 15 08:58:57 1999
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Subject: Team3S: This is exhausting!
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I am beginning to get the picture here.

Based on what everyone SEEMS to be saying, the stock catback pipe is 2-3/4
in. OD (2.5 in. ID) while aftermarket performance add-ons, such as the ATR
downpipe, are 3 in. OD.

As Chris Winkley points out, if you put an ATR downpipe on, it comes with a
sleeve to neck down to the stock size.

So, if one planned to upgrade from the downpipe all the way back, then it
would be best to make the Y-connection at the rear end a 3 incher (3 in.
inlet, two 2-1/2 in. outlets), so it would be able to accommodate future
updates to an all 3 in. system. In the meantime, a simple sleeve would let
it fit the stock 2-3/4 in. pipe from the cat back.

Thanks, guys.

Rich/old poop
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

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From: Jeff Lucius <stealthman92@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Team3S: What's that exhaust again?
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----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Winkley <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: What's that exhaust again?

> Folks...
>
> Roger makes a good point. We should specify whether
> we're referring to ID (Inside Diameter) or OD
>(Outside Diameter). I've been referring to ID in my
> posts. However, I have never taken a set of calipers
> to the ID .... snip

Hmmm, well I have mic'd the ATR exhaust and some of
the stock exhaust for my 1992 Stealth TT (I haven't
cut up the old one yet to measure all IDs :) ). Here
are the nominal IDs in inches at the ends of the pipe.
I haven't measured all the ODs on the ATR to calculate
the IDs in the middles and bends of the pipes. The
last column is the percent increase in cross-sectional
area of the ATR pipe/opening over the stock ones.

                   stock         ATR        %increase
Downpipe inlets     1.95         2.3            39
Downpipe outlet     2.415        2.875          42
main cat            2.37-2.45    3.035         64-54
pipe after cat      2.45        
pipes after cat                  2.8-2.88      31-38

Jeff Lucius  1992 Stealth TT

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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec 15 09:36:09 1999
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From: "Kevin Schappell" <kevin@pacarsearch.com>
To: "'Merritt'" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>, <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: This is exhausting!
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Rich,

I measured my stock pipe from the cat back with a caliper and it's slightly
over 3"  It's probably 80mm since it's a metric car.  If your car is not
from CA or Europe then it will be the same size as mine.  I don't see any
need to replace the pipe from the converter to the rear axle.  Just go with
your idea of the y-pipe and new mufflers.  If you want to check it out, cut
a 3" slot in a piece of cardboard and lay under the car and check it out.
You can get to the pipe very easy without jacking it up.


Kevin Schappell
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec 15 09:41:44 1999
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        <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
From: Merritt <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Subject: RE: Team3S: This is exhausting!
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Kevin Schappell says:
>I measured my stock pipe from the cat back with a caliper and it's slightly
>over 3"  It's probably 80mm since it's a metric car. 

Gee, I thought I had figured it out.
What's going on here? Why does everyone get different measurements for the
same pipes?

I guess I better be prepared for anything when we crawl under there.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec 15 09:46:33 1999
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To: "'Merritt'" <merritt@cedar-rapids.net>
Cc: Kevin Schappell <kevin@pacarsearch.com>, stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: This is exhausting!
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:45:28 -0800
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Rich...

Again, I'm pretty sure we're mixing numbers. Jeff sent a post with ID
(Inside Diameter) measurements, while it appears (to me, if he's using a set
of calipers from under the car) that Kevin is measuring OD (Outside
Diameter). We REALLY should specify our measurement terminology (ID, OD,
English, Metric, etc.).

Looking forward...Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Merritt [mailto:merritt@cedar-rapids.net]
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 9:41 AM
To: Kevin Schappell; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: RE: Team3S: This is exhausting!

Kevin Schappell says:
>I measured my stock pipe from the cat back with a caliper and it's slightly
>over 3"  It's probably 80mm since it's a metric car. 

Gee, I thought I had figured it out.
What's going on here? Why does everyone get different measurements for the
same pipes?

I guess I better be prepared for anything when we crawl under there.

Rich/old poop/94 VR4
For subscribe/unsubscribe info, our web page is http://www.bobforrest.com/Team3S.htm

From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec 15 09:59:03 1999
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Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:59:24 -0800
From: Dan Jett <djett@corp.ultratech.com>
To: stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
Subject: Team3S: Intake plenum/manifold questions...
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** High Priority **

Hello, all...

I've posted this question elsewhere, (thanks for the input, Roger!),
but I figured there may be more information available...

I have a 94 Stealth TT, and I've recently aqquired a '99 VR4 intake
plenum and manifold. There are two extra ports, (one is MAP sensor
port, the other, well, your guess is as good as mine!). There are (I
think) two extra hose connections as well.
My dillemna is this: I wish to have the units portmatched, maybe
extrude honed, and polished, as an upgrade to my 94 mill...I'm not
sure how feasible it is to modify the intake plenum for gauging
pressure, or if I should  just have them filled. Roger brought up an
interesting point that the throttle body may not even fit the new
plenum. Has anyone had any experience with porting their
plenum/manifold?
I'm looking for information as to the functionality of these extra
ports...I'm not sure if anyone has a '99 shop manual, (certainly not
here in the bay area!), but I would really appreciate any ideas,
thoughts, or comments on this issue.
Also, has anyone here with honed intake systems noticed any
improvement over stock? Any quantifiable results?

Thanks in advance for the help!

Dan J
94 Stealth TT
Centerforce DF clutch
K/N FIPK
Greddy exhaust
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From owner-stealth-3000gt  Wed Dec 15 10:15:15 1999
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From: "Kevin Schappell" <kevin@pacarsearch.com>
To: "'Chris Winkley'" <cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com>
Cc: <stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com>
Subject: RE: Team3S: This is exhausting!
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:15:29 -0500
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Either way the stock pipes are not 1/8" wall so if I say 3"OD or 3"ID there
is NO way you could confuse it with 2 1/2" pipe or even 2 3/4" I do not know
if the exhaust pipe is metric or standard, HKS lists their systems in MM
however.  I did measure the pipe with a caliper therefore the 3" measurement
I gave was OD.

Take care,

Kevin Schappell
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Winkley [mailto:cwinkley@plaza.ds.adp.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 12:45 PM
> To: 'Merritt'
> Cc: Kevin Schappell; stealth-3000gt@list.sirius.com
> Subject: RE: Team3S: This is exhausting!
>
>
> Rich...
>
> Again, I'm pretty sure we're mixing numbers. Jeff sent a post with ID
> (Inside Diameter) measurements, while it appears (to me, if
> he's using a set
> of calipers from under the car) that Kevin is measuring OD (Outside
> Diameter). We REALLY should specify our measurement
> terminology (ID, OD,
> English, Metric, etc.).
>
> Looking forward...Chris
>


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